Should You Shout "Help" or "Fire"?

Summary

The Gist: Should You Shout "Help" or "Fire"?

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Gist
• Host/Author: Peach Fish Productions (Mike Pesca)
• Episode: Should You Shout "Help" or "Fire"?
• Release Date: March 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this thought-provoking episode of The Gist, host Mike Pesca delves into the age-old question: Should you shout "Help" or "Fire" when confronted with danger? Bringing in psychologist Sadie Dingfelder, Pesca explores the origins, effectiveness, and scientific backing of this commonly suggested self-defense tactic.

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Historical Origins of "Fire" vs. "Help"

Pesca begins by recounting the dubious historical advice traditionally given to individuals under threat. Sadie Dingfelder elucidates the roots of this advice:

[07:58] Sadie Dingfelder: "Absolutely. It was in my high school psychology textbook, but it was right next to the story of Kitty Genovese."

The infamous Kitty Genovese case, often cited as the catalyst for bystander effect studies, is revealed to be largely apocryphal. Dingfelder clarifies:

[08:37] Sadie Dingfelder: "Not at all true. It has been so thoroughly debunked... there was at least five books about it. Yes, and two documentaries."

Further tracing the advice's lineage, Dingfelder credits a 1912 French self-defense guide for the earliest documented instance of advising individuals to shout "Fire" to elicit a more immediate response from bystanders:

[10:22] Sadie Dingfelder: "...part of this idea is that no one wants to help a woman, or people are afraid to help... But if you yell fire, they're all going to immediately leave their houses because they do not want to burn down in their houses."

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Scientific Studies and Evidence

Pesca and Dingfelder examine scientific studies that have tested the efficacy of yelling "Fire" versus "Help" in threatening situations. A key study from 1980 is discussed:

[14:27] Sadie Dingfelder: "They... had these students... saw someone drag a lady across the hallway... the phrase that the woman yells, either help, rape, call the police, or she would blow a whistle or she would say fire."

The results indicated that:

• 50% intervened when the victim yelled "Help/Rape"
• 36% when a whistle was blown
• 22% when "Fire" was yelled

However, Dingfelder emphasizes the limitations of this study:

[17:35] Sadie Dingfelder: "It's not a great study, but there's a lot of research on the bystander effect because of our friend Kitty Genovese."

Another notable study from 1973 involving seminary students revealed:

[18:15] Sadie Dingfelder: "Only 40% stopped to help that guy... and only 10% helped in the 'you're running late' condition."

These studies collectively suggest that the advice to yell "Fire" may not be as effective as commonly believed.

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Discussion and Analysis

Pesca challenges the practicality and cultural specificity of the "Fire" tactic. He questions:

[12:27] Mike Pesca: "But if you don't, you could also just make. Clarify the situation."

Dingfelder concurs, highlighting the ambiguity introduced when yelling "Fire":

[19:19] Sadie Dingfelder: "Because the main thing that helps or prevents people to intervene is the ambiguity of the situation."

This ambiguity likely reduces the likelihood of bystander intervention, as individuals become confused about the actual threat.

Pesca brings up the historical context of early 1900s Paris, where fire was a more immediate and frequent hazard, making the advice more contextually relevant but less so today:

[11:23] Sadie Dingfelder: "Pre World One Paris... fires were regularly burning down entire city blocks."

Additionally, the cultural shift has reversed the perception of danger from being attacked to fearing a fire, further undermining the advice's contemporary relevance.

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Conclusion

After dissecting historical origins and examining scientific studies, both Pesca and Dingfelder conclude that yelling "Fire" instead of "Help" is misguided advice. The tactic fails to provide clear communication during emergencies and may hinder effective bystander intervention.

[22:36] Sadie Dingfelder: "Yes, I feel that that's bullshit."

Instead, advocating for clear and direct communication about the nature of the threat is recommended to enhance the likelihood of receiving timely assistance.

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Additional Segment: Police Shootings and Media Representation

In a segue from the main topic, Pesca transitions to a critical analysis of media portrayals of police shootings, referencing a recent incident in Brooklyn involving Officer Edmund Mays and Darrell Nichols. He critiques the New York Times for:

• Omitting critical details about the knife-wielding assailant
• Focusing on fare evasion rather than the immediate threat posed
• Amplifying protester narratives over actionable police tactics

Pesca argues that such media framing distorts public understanding of policing challenges, emphasizing the need for:

• Contextual reporting that includes all facets of incidents
• Balanced narratives that consider both police actions and bystander safety
• Recognition of the complexities involved in law enforcement decisions

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Notable Quotes

• Mike Pesca:

  "[07:50] Rodrigo Duarte has taken a flight to the Hague... this is an inherently political prosecution and perhaps likely a righteous one."
  [Introductory content skipped]

• Sadie Dingfelder:

  "[07:58] Absolutely. It was in my high school psychology textbook, but it was right next to the story of Kitty Genovese."

• Mike Pesca:

  "[22:36] Sadie Dingfelder is the author of Do I Know You?... Sadie, Sadie, thank you so much."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Gist challenges listeners to reevaluate commonly held self-defense advice through a critical and scientific lens, urging a move towards more effective and evidence-based strategies in perilous situations. Additionally, Pesca's analysis of media portrayals underscores the importance of comprehensive and unbiased reporting in shaping public discourse on policing and safety.

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Produced by: Cory Wara, Michelle Pesca, Leo Baum
Your Feedback: Share your thoughts on this two-part episode at Oompuru G.

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Note: Advertisements, promotional segments, and non-essential content have been omitted to focus on the core discussions of the episode.

Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

Hi, I'm here to extol the virtues of Peska Plus. Now, full disclosure, I am Peska and have been accused of being a little plus. But if you subscribe, and you do so by going to subscribe.Mike Pesca.com you get all sorts of bonus features. We do extended interviews. We have a book club every other month. We had an amazing live event. I don't know if we'll ever replicate this, but it's. It was a soiree, plus a discussion with members of the Fifth Column. And it's free for everyone who is a Pesca plus member. Now is the best time to get your membership approved. I have to tell you the approval process you're going to skate through. I know this because, as I said before, I am the titular Pesca of Pesca Plus. And of course, like all of our subscription services, all the podcasts will be ad free. But with Pesca plus, oh, so much more. Subscribe.mike pesca.com It's Thursday, March 13, 2025, from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca. Rodrigo Duarte has taken a flight to the Hague. Not for the legendarily mind expanding coffee shops. The former president of the Philippines, whose drug crackdown killed an estimated 30,000, is there for crimes against. Duarte was a thug and a braggart. And every press conference he held could serve as evidence for the prosecutor. But at the same time, this is an inherently political prosecution and perhaps likely a righteous one. So the Interpol warrant was signed by Ferdinand Marcos Jr. Marcos Jr. Gained the presidency by running with Duarte's daughter on a unity ticket. Now Marcos Jr's party is pursuing her in impeachment hearings as her father is on trial internationally. The International Criminal Court. Marcos's own father, you remember him, he escaped prosecution. He lived out his days in Hawaii after stealing an estimated five to $10 billion in the shoes. Oh, the shoes. The elder Marcos killed only 3,000 or so. Extrajudicially, Duarte's body count could be 10 times that. Maybe it's only four times that. But complicatedly, he was popular. Duarte got elected saying he would kill drug dealers. And then he did kill drug dealers. And the populace of the Philippines liked it a lot. He left office with sky high approval ratings. It doesn't make it right. My point is that much of the Philippines bears culpability for the death toll. As do the international drug syndicates which threatened to turn the Philippines into a narco state. As do drug users throughout the world. And in the United States, ICC trials take forever. The last one, which ended in conviction, took six years. The one before that, Herman Katengo of the Congo, took seven and a half years. Rodrigo Duterte is 79 years old. On the show today, it's part two of my spiel. Nine bullets, one knife. Many wrong questions. But first, it's a cold night. You're walking down a dark street. You left behind the glow of neon and streetlights long ago. You see someone lurking, I'd say in the shadows. But there needs to be some light cast to create a shadow. This figure strides behind you, matching you, pace for pace. And then his footsteps increase. You feel him upon you. He's reaching out. You know you're in danger. Every ounce of your being urges you to scream, but what help comes to mind? But then you remember hearing, oh, maybe I should yell fire instead of help. Well, I can't keep you out of that dark part of town on that cold night. But I can give you the right answer for what you should yell. As determined by science. Sadie Dingfelder is here. Armed with studies, she's fired up, ready to help. She's here to play. Is that Sadie Dingfelder? Up next, elevating my style used to mean well. Spending way too much money and way too much time figuring out what website. Then when you go, you say, does the sweater look good? But Quince ends all that I know and can rely on high end versatile pieces at prices I can afford. 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Quince.com the gist I'm sure you know the old saying, may you live in interesting times. Well, you got it. These are interesting times. As Washington and the world adjusts to Trump 2.0, you can trust our friends at the Dispatch Podcast to break down the biggest stories from the campaign trail and beyond. So what you get in this podcast feed On Mondays, Jamie Weinstein hosts some hard hitting interviews. On Fridays, this is the piece de resistance. Sarah Isger, Steve Hayes, Jonah Goldberg and others from the Dispatch discuss politics, policy and culture, including shopping cart placement. If you're looking to deepen your understanding of the biggest news stories from across the country, you could rely on the Dispatch Podcast to ask the important questions and get the facts right. Find the Dispatch Podcast where you get your podcasts. In First Amendment law, the old saying is you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. And the but actually crowd who I appreciate will quickly come in and say, actually you can. That's a little beside the point because we're not talking about the yelling of fire when there is a fire or when you're in a theater. There is another anecdotal piece of advice out there that I have heard that instead if a woman, let's say, is being attacked, instead of saying Stop attacker, I'm being attacked, what the woman should do is yell fire. Okay, that's interesting. I could see why it would hit society as that's so sad or that's effective and let's be armed and forewarned. But the question is, is it true or is it bullshit? And because we're playing, is it bullshit? I welcome now Sadie Dingfelder. She is the author of Do I Know you? A Face Blind Reporter's Journey into the Science of Sight, Memory, Imagination and the Yelling of Fire when you should be yelling I'm attacked. Sadie, welcome back to the Gist.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Thanks for having me.

[Mike Pesca]

So what is the actual piece of advice in a sentence? What do and have you ever gotten that advice? Were you advised to yell fire?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Absolutely. It was in my high school psychology textbook, but it was right next to the story of Kitty Genovese. Okay, so already we are having some apocryphal stories.

[Mike Pesca]

Was so the story of Kitty Genovese is this is a woman who was attacked and she was stabbed to death outside of her apartment in Kew Gardens. And the anecdote is that although all the neighbors heard her cries for help, no one did anything and it became this huge symbol. But it didn't exactly happen. And there was a neighbor who helped, and that neighbor was gay, and maybe that's why they didn't talk about the neighbor any. So it was Kitty Genovese. Really interesting story, interesting documentary. But not true, right?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Not at all true. It has been so thorough. I feel like it's got to be the most debunked story because there's There was at least five books about it. Yes, and two documentaries.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, Jim Solomon did a great documentary about it. Okay. Was that being presented in your high school textbook as true?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, okay. So next to true is building on this idea. Well, we all know Kitty Genovese was attacked and no one said anything. So what you should do or what Kitty should have done is yell fire. They were saying.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Did they back that up? I'm asking you to remember back to high school psychology. Did they back that up with a study or just an idea, just a supposition?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Well, I definitely. Well, they did. They. It was just a supposition. And so I went and looked to try to find elsewhere else it was found. I mean, I found it in lots of psychology textbooks. Older, usually like pretty old, though. And let's see. But the most recent example was 2023 in an English expression dictionary for Chinese speakers. Oh, no, the example sentence is actually showing you how to use the word cry out and confronted. But it says when confronted with a dangerous sit situation, cry out for assistance. Yelling fire, fire instead of help will generally bring faster assistance.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so we're, we're miseducating Chinese speakers, but probably it also plays into what the Communist Party would like them to believe about the west, like everyone's getting attacked. But there are also, from what I understand there, there are training seminars or first defense or self defense classes, like even a. Even a half hour first defense seminar might say. And here's one practical p of advice. Yell fire instead of help.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

And that gets said all the time still to this day.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yes. And with the help of a Reddit. Reddit sleuth named Quixoticist. I have his real name too, but I forgot it. Anyway, he found a 1912 book in translation from. It's a French guide to self defense for the mean streets of Pre World War I Paris.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, really?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

And that's. I mean, I don't know if that's where it came from, but that's the earliest example anyone's found of this exact advice.

[Mike Pesca]

Yelling fire instead of help.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

That's interesting because I put it. I thought of the idea as Quintessentially American. And also trying to make the point that our fellow Americans are indifferent and especially indifferent to the plight of women. I mean, part of this idea is that no one wants to help a woman, or people are afraid to help, to be an intervener, but out of self interest they might pay attention to a fire. So I guess some ideas like that exist throughout cultures. Certainly World War. Pre World War I Paris.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Well, if you think about pre World One Paris, that is a place in a time when everyone had their windows open for ventilation because we didn't have air conditioning, that kind of thing. And also fires were regularly burning down entire city blocks.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, things were made of wood. Fire was much more dangerous then. That's interesting. Now being attacked is more dangerous than a fire. We've kind of inverted that.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

I think I would. Yeah, but so the idea is really specific to that moment in history where it's like if you're being attacked on like, let's say an empty street.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Like Kitty Genovese. And you yell. You want your neighbors to hear their windows are open. They might hear you yelling, help. Mugger, rapist. And the idea is in the self interested neighbors don't want to run out and get involved with a mugger or whatever. But if you yell fire, they're all going to immediately leave their houses because they do not want to burn down in their houses.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, I see, so it gets people out of a house. Because I was also thinking, fire, fire. You might want to go in the other direction. I don't know if you'd want to be drawn to an attack or an attacker, it seems. But you know, fires are also pretty scary.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Well, you know, according to this guy, and he was the head. Let's see. George Du Bois. I'm sure I'm saying that wrong. He was the Jorge Dubois. He was the head of security at the Paris Opera. And he was a French boxer.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Most famous for losing an MMA match against a diminutive Jiu Jitsu Mats Jiu J. Jiu jitsu in just six seconds. He lost it in six.

[Mike Pesca]

Wait, when was this?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

This was the early 1900s.

[Mike Pesca]

There's no MMA then.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

I know, but it was MMA. I mean, it was a boxer against a.

[Mike Pesca]

So this guy was in charge of keeping the Phantom of the Opera at bay. That's what Paris Opera house security did back then.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yeah. So clearly he knew what he was talking about.

[Mike Pesca]

Guys in a mask, you watch him yell fire or fall.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

This is the same book that is fantastic. It has all these great illustrations and it's been translated to English and I bought one, but I haven't gotten it yet. He also suggests how to deal with fires in theaters.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

And so he says, you do not just run for the exit. That's how you get crushed. Just chill out. And then go to the orchestra pit where there is an exit to the outdoors. Now, it's usually blocked, but if you throw a shoulder against it or if you yell through it, the police will or the firemen will help you out.

[Mike Pesca]

This seems maybe good for 1906 Paris. I would think clearly marked exits in current, say, American theaters are a better way to exit than searching through the orchestra pit. By the way, they've taken out the orchestra pit. In most theaters. They do it remotely. So I don't know how practical this is. Less practical than yelling fire instead of I'm helping, being attacked. Oh, so this is so, so far. I didn't realize how far back this went. I didn't realize how cross cultural this idea was. I thought it was more an indictment of the United States. But tell me, has anyone actually put it to the test? You've identified it as an old wives tale. But some old wives tales work, right?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

I am so excited that some people did put it to the test in 1980.

[Mike Pesca]

This is a fun experiment to do.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

They. And it was very fun. And I don't think you could do it today.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, you have to tell the police beforehand what you're doing. We're psychology students.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Well, yeah, so they were in a psychology building and they told 87 students, but seven of them were dropped from the final analysis. I'm telling you this because you'd like to do math in your head. And the. They had these students go to like one room and they did a sham eye hand coordination test. And then they sent them to a second room to get the extra credit for taking the study. Like some sort of sign off card. And the second room was downstairs, one floor. And while they're waiting at the second room, they see someone drag a lady. Like they see a large man drag a woman across the hallway, a smallish woman into a room, locked the door, and then they played a tape. And they checked to make sure the tape sounded real. Yeah, they used special audio equipment and the tape was the same for all the conditions, except for they would just replace the phrase that the woman yells, either help. She would either say help, rape, call the police, or she would blow a whistle or she would say fire.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Or there was a condition with she didn't ask for any particular Help.

[Mike Pesca]

Did the attacker wear a mask and play the pipe organ at any point? No. Going back to that guy, no. He's a misunderstood anti hero, by the way, the Phantom.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

He is, yes. Yes. Yeah, I love that. I love that show. So they found that. Okay, so I didn't tell you. There was also another complication where some of the people didn't see the dragging across the hall. They only heard the whole thing. And that was the only significant result in this. In the study. The. The students that saw someone get dragged.

[Mike Pesca]

Across the hall, I'll predict no matter what she said, they intervened.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Unfortunately, not all of them intervened even in that case, but they were much more likely to.

[Mike Pesca]

Did they. Was there a difference in intervention based on fire or help, in that case.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

The type of intervention?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

No, not statistically.

[Mike Pesca]

No. Was there a difference in. If they intervened based on the word no?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Okay. Not in. Not statistically. They said there was a trend. And then, because that's obviously the. We want them to answer, they told us some pilot data. And in their pilot study, they did get significant results where more people. So the most people helped when they said help rape, which was 50% of the participants, intervened for that one, 36% when they heard the whistle and 22% when they heard the fire message.

[Mike Pesca]

When. Okay. And that was if they saw the woman being dragged or if not that.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

So this was a pilot study. Yeah, I think it occurred in a rest. Like in a restroom or something. They really didn't describe it, but I got the sense of this one. It was more visual.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. So this is not a. I mean, I guess they tried their best or it's the only one out there. This ain't a great study.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

It's not a great study, but there's a lot of research on the bystander effect because of our friend Kitty Genovese.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

And can I tell you my favorite one?

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

My favorite study was in 1973, and it was researchers at Princeton. They recruited a bunch of seminary students and they had them take a survey about their sort of reasons for joining the seminary. And then they said, okay, now you're going to go to place B and give a sermon on the parable of the Good Samaritan. And so these seminary students are walking from point A to point B where they find someone in need of help laying literally across their path. They have to step over this guy.

[Mike Pesca]

Exactly like the Good Samaritan.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

And so the results were only 40% stopped to help that guy, even while.

[Mike Pesca]

Primed with the assignment of give me A survey of the Good Samaritan.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Like, presumably they're rehearsing this in their minds.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

And 63%. Okay. Oh, yeah. So there were some conditions. One of them was, they're like, oh, you've got plenty of time. You're running early. Another one was, they're like, you're. You're on time or whatever. And then the other was like, you're running late. Only 10% helped in the you're running late condition.

[Mike Pesca]

You got to tell people about the Good Samarit. I do think that there is probably a way to see. I mean, fire departments know if. If yelling fire actually helps people intervene, and police departments know or have some sort of sense if I'm being attacked actually helps intervention. Is this advice, even though there's a really bad study somewhat disputing it, is this advice still currently very popular to give out?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

It is still popular, and I think that the research, the body of research would suggest it's very bad advice.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Because the main thing that helps. Causes people to intervene or not is the ambiguity of the situation. So if you're being. So if people are not sure that you need help or they're not sure what kind of help you need, then they are really unlikely to act.

[Mike Pesca]

So wait, if you say if they're not sure. Okay, if they're not sure, they're unlikely to act. So if they see something where they have to do some mental processes, it gets in the way of them intervening. But if you give them a direct piece of. Not advice, but direction, help, they will help.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Well, it would be even better to be like, hey, guy in the green shirt, call the police.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes. But also, here, hand me your phone. I'll dial the 9 and the 1.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Right. But if you don't, you could also just make. Clarify the situation. Because you could say, like, help. I don't know, this man. This man is assaulting me. He grabbed my purse. Chase him. Something like that.

[Mike Pesca]

And what if you just yelled fire?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

But they're going to be. People will be confused. And I think that's going to reduce the likelihood people are going to help you.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. Because if you're being attacked and you yell, I'm being attacked. That's unambiguous. Oh, that's what's going on. If you yell fire when you're being attacked, people will look, see no fire, and say, maybe this person's a little weird. Yeah, I wonder. I've never. I think I've heard people say attack. I don't know if I've ever Heard someone yelling fire. I definitely have never come across this situation or even heard of anyone who came across the situation or even heard from someone who said, I remembered the advice and I yelled fire. And it worked.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Right?

[Mike Pesca]

You ever just anecdotally heard someone ever say that? I remember the advice. I yelled fire and it worked.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

No, but honestly, I can't think of anyone I know who's been attacked on the street, including me. And I wander around sketchy neighborhoods by myself in the dark all the time.

[Mike Pesca]

You also carry dry kindling with you, so the fire is more likely as well.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

George Du Bois has a suggestion that is very in line with that.

[Mike Pesca]

The Parisian theater master at arms, he.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Said that if you're a lady walking around by yourself and you can't stand to have a knife or a pistol on you, have handfuls of ash mixed with pepper and just throw it in the faces of your attacker and you're all set.

[Mike Pesca]

This guy. I mean, maybe things are a lot. Certainly things were a lot more dangerous in Paris Pre World War I, but man, his advice is just. It just seems to be much, much more onerous than, I don't know, heading for the exits or having like, you're going to walk around with ash but not a knife.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Okay, all right.

[Mike Pesca]

The pistol I understand.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

But if you do walk around with a knife, he suggests wrapping in a tea towel so that you're not accosted by police and hold it like, kind of out.

[Mike Pesca]

I love this guy. There is a John Mulaney character almost entirely based on this guy who has, you know, advice on not to get kidnapped. A square jawed John Mulaney character. Okay, so this is what we're here for. We're here to hear about what was going on in the MMA theater scene in pre World War I Paris. But we're really here to get a ruling. So I shall ask you if you are attacked, yelling fire instead of help will help your chances of someone intervening. Is that bullshit?

[Sadie Dingfelder]

Yes, I feel that that's bullshit.

[Mike Pesca]

All right. Sadie Dingfelder is the author of Do I Know You? A Face Blind Reporter's Journey into the Science of Sight, Memory, Imagination and Warding Off Attackers with Ash. Sadie, Sadie, thank you so much.

[Sadie Dingfelder]

You're so welcome.

[Mike Pesca]

Foreign is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations and now the spiel nine bullets, four Shot all the Wrong Questions Part two On a September Sunday in Brooklyn, a police interaction with a knife wielding man escalated into pure chaos. Four people shot, including Darrell Nichols, who refused 38 commands to drop his weapon. Two innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire, one seriously injured, and even one of the officers himself catching a bullet. Body camera footage shows Mickels advancing on police even after Tasers failed to stop him, repeatedly telling officers to shoot me. The questions hanging in the air, what should police have done when confronted with this armed, threatening man in a crowded subway? According to one witness quoted by the New York Times, the answer is nothing. Police should have walked away. Yesterday we examined how this subway shooting unfolded. Today we'll scrutinize how the Times and other media outlets frame these events in ways that seem stuck in a pre pandemic mindset, one that disregards the real life lessons of deep policing and pullbacks in the name of radically reimagining public safety. In cities that pulled back most aggressively on policing, the consequences have been stark. Murders in Minneapolis more than doubled from the 2010s to 2022. In Portland, homicides increased from a total of in the year 2016 to 101 in 2022 after officials cut millions from the police budget after George Floyd was killed in 2020. Major newspapers serve as thought leaders and crucial civic voices in shaping policing debates. While the New York Times occasionally produces excellent work examining the complex trade offs inherent in policing decisions, too often it presents the most aggrieved claims of protesters and critics as reasonable or even factual. Their coverage of the Mickels shooting began misleadingly with a headline two days after the incident. Quote, Critics question NYPD shootings after Fare Evasion Stop in Subway. Six months later came this headline, one Hop Turnstile nine Police Bullets, four People Shot. Does it add up? Headlines telegraph what outlets believe are the most important elements of a story. The omission of any reference to Mickle's knife, while emphasizing fair evasion, reveals what the Times believes this incident is fundamentally about. They're wrong. It's not just the Times. In New York magazine and on public radio station wnyc, protesters voices received prominent placement while police explanations were treated not merely as versions to be vetted, which would be proper, but is inherently suspect. Knife wielding attackers aren't described as lunging at cops, they're described as lunging in scare quotes. Details that might justify police actions are routinely downplayed. Consider another story that received prominent coverage emphasizing the sad over the salient. The police Shooting of Kowalski Treywick Media accounts repeatedly emphasize that the shooting occurred in Trey Wick's own apartment or in his own kitchen. Only deeper in these stories would readers discover that Trey Wicked was actively charging at officers with a knife when shot in his own apartment, yes, but wielding a deadly weapon nonetheless. Which brings us back to the non fatal shooting of Darrell Nichols, two bystanders, and Officer Edmund Mays in that Brooklyn subway. Nichols was armed, refused to drop his knife despite dozens of commands, had been tased to no effect, and rushed at Officer Maze. What should the police have done? Nothing, apparently. That is the astonishing suggestion of David La Fauci, a witness quoted by the Times who wondered whether, quote, Mr. Mickels would have just gone on his way had he not been approached by the police. This question, never answered, conveniently ignores the knife, the threats, and the danger posed to everyone in the station. Perhaps La Fauci's perspective becomes clearer when we learn that he acknowledges, quote, I'm not the most pro police guy. He was arrested at a George Floyd protest in 2020, sued the city and received received $115,000 settlement. Now he's suing again for emotional distress over the Mickels incident, asking taxpayers to compensate him because an armed man wouldn't comply with police orders. If bystanders receive payouts every time police use force to protect the public, we will soon lack resources for policing altogether, which police, abolitionists and their media allies would consider an acceptable outcome. Here lies my fundamental problem with the New York Times approach. In this story and many others, it fails to treat a serious civic question seriously. The let's not enforce this law argument is frozen in 2019, a period when fantasies of massive police pullbacks seem plausible because crime rates were low. This mindset views policing not as a necessary tool for public safety, but is fundamentally a force of oppression evasion, never a force for order. The Times context free citing of racial statistics exemplifies this outdated approach. The article notes that only 5% of those arrested and 16% of those ticketed for fair evasion in New York are white. But these percentages only become meaningful when compared to the actual demographics of fair evaders, a figure we do not have. The city is 30.9% non Hispanic white. But only 24% of white new Yorkers rely on the subway for commuting, compared to 44% of Black new Yorkers. As I said, there is no denominator for that 16% figure. The argument that law enforcement must be racially biased solely because of arrest rates no longer deserves serious consideration outside explicitly ideological publications. Likewise, the reflexive rejection of fair enforcement serves as a proxy for rejecting policing altogether. This is a position that a lot of people have it's called police abolition. Whatever its merits as an academic exercise, this ideology does not deserve serious consideration in solution oriented civic discourse. Now, if New York made subways free, as Kansas City and Albuquerque have done with their buses, we could have a different conversation. But as long as transit requires payment, we need enforcement mechanisms not because of some controversial policing theory, but because that is how payment for services function in an organized society. Fair enforcement should, of course be proportional, professional and humane. Absolutely. But abandoning it entirely ignores $800 million in lost revenue, the weapons seized during the stops, and most importantly, the millions of riders who dutifully pay their fares and deserve safe passage. None of this excuses the injuries to innocent bystanders. Gregory Del Pesci and Kerry Ann Jahal deserve compensation and our collective sympathy for the wounds suffered during the shooting. They were simply commuting and should not have been caught in the crossfire. Could perfect policing tactics have prevented this shooting? Maybe. But the definition of perfect policing isn't policing up to the point where officers get injured or bystanders are hurt. There are legitimate questions to be asked about this incident, but those questions are ones of tactical positioning, marksmanship, and bystander safety. The Times, however, is not engaging in such a useful inquiry. Instead, the paper and much of today's media appears not to have absorbed the lessons from our post. George Floyd Experiment with diminished police departments. They continue to amplify old complaints about overpolicing while ignoring the background conditions of crime, public sentiment, and very importantly, the documentary evidence of what actually happened. When a man brandishes a weapon, refuses dozens of commands to drop the weapon, tells officers to shoot him, advances despite tasers, and declares his intention to make police kill him, the story cannot honestly be reduced to one hop turnstile, nine police bullets, four people shot. Does it add up? That equation will never add up because it deliberately omits the most important variable. And that's it for today's show. The gist is produced in two parts by Cory Wara. Michelle Pesca's cbso. Leo Baum is our intern. Tell us what you think about this big two parter Oompuru G. Peru Duparu and thanks for listening.