Ted Kaye: "You can love a flag and have it co-opted."

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Gist ― “Ted Kaye: ‘You can love a flag and have it co-opted.’”

Date: July 20, 2026
Host: Mike Pesca (with guest host Brian Greene; produced by Peach Fish Productions)
Guest: Ted Kaye, Secretary of the North American Vexillological Association

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Overview

In this episode, The Gist dives into the surprising and charged world of flags—how they represent ideals, can be loaded with politics, and just how quickly symbols can be “co-opted” by new movements. Host Mike Pesca sits down with America’s beloved flag expert Ted Kaye to unpack recent flag controversies, particularly those swirling around Supreme Court justices, Christian nationalism, sedition, and the power (and peril) of reclaiming a shared symbol. The conversation, lively yet thoughtful, journeys through vexillology (the study of flags), the evolution of flag iconography, and what our national symbols really mean today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Meaning and History of Flag Display (US Flag Upside Down)

• Origins of the Upside-Down Flag

  • An upside-down US flag is a historical sign of distress, particularly in maritime settings.
  • Ted Kaye [18:38]:
    “Indeed. And it's in the US Flag code. It says that the flag should never be displayed with the Union down except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.”

• Flag Code as Etiquette, Not Law

  • The US Flag code outlines respectful flag treatment but is not enforced as law.
  • Ted Kaye [20:20]:
    “The flag code is an etiquette manual. It's...a law, but there are no enforcement provisions for it. So it is simply a guideline on how to treat our national symbol.”

• Shift in Symbolic Use

  • Since the Vietnam War, the upside-down flag has also surfaced as a political protest symbol.
  • Recent years saw its adoption by movements alleging national crisis—most notably, “Stop the Steal.”

2. Academic and Ethical Approach to Flag Usage

• Descriptivist vs. Prescriptivist Vexillologists

  • Professional and “serious” vexillologists mainly document and describe flag use, rather than prescribe appropriate usage.
  • Ted Kaye [24:01]:
    “Most people involved in our organization are...documenting of flags. They might be very interested in how people use the flags...the action of flying a flag upside down is not about the flag itself, it's about how the flag is used.”

• Flags as Speech

  • The right to use flags in protest—including burning—is affirmed as free expression protected by the First Amendment.
  • Ted Kaye quoting Molly Ivins [23:18]:
    “I prefer someone who wraps himself in the Constitution and burns the flag to someone who wraps himself in the flag and burns the Constitution.”

3. Co-Opting of Historical Flags

• Appeal to Heaven Flag & Gadsden “Don’t Tread On Me”

  • “Appeal to Heaven” dates to the Revolutionary War, with roots in John Locke and George Washington’s cruisers; included a pine tree as a New England symbol.
  • In recent years, it’s been adopted by Christian nationalist groups and as a symbol in January 6 contexts.
  • Ted Kaye [27:36]:
    “That flag was first developed, adopted in 1775 for the cruisers...that [Washington] had under his command...the phrase an appeal to heaven...when a people's appeals to their government had been exhausted, they could appeal to a higher power, to Providence.”

• Symbolic Drift and Public Perception

  • The Gadsden and Betsy Ross flags have also been repurposed by new movements, complicating their meaning.
  • Discussion of how hard it is to “bring back” a symbol once it’s been widely associated, rightly or wrongly, with divisive causes (compared to the fate of the swastika).
  • Ted Kaye [31:40]:
    “It's very hard to bring a symbol back to its previous use if it's been co-opted in the public mind currently.”

4. Debate Over Intent, Ownership, and Context

• Is Flying Certain Flags an Automatic Political Statement?

  • Many flyers may not be aware of a flag’s changed associations.
  • Institutions (e.g., San Francisco) have struggled with context—removing historic flags after learning of their co-option, even when flying as part of a historical display.
  • Ted Kaye [30:50]:
    “I think it's ridiculous for San Francisco to have taken it down because in that use it was a historical flag...However, I understand politics, I understand people getting mad about things.”

• Examples of Multi-Interpretation

  • Leonard Leo, a conservative legal influencer, flies the Appeal to Heaven flag but disavows Stop the Steal, showing that one can love a flag without adhering to all the associations thrust upon it.
  • Ted Kaye [36:39]:
    "The flag. You can love a flag and have it co-opted by someone else...anybody who's beloved flag is co-opted by another movement...it means they can't fly it anymore without someone thinking they believe something else."

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Notable Defenses of Free Expression:

  • Ted Kaye [21:21]:
    "The idea of burning the flag as an expression of political thought is protected First Amendment speech...the only difference between state sanctioned flag desecration and disposing the flag according to the flag code is what you’re thinking while you do it.”

• The “Evergreen” Quality of Flag Controversies:

  • Mike Pesca [37:32]:
    “Much like the flag itself that we're speaking of, this topic is an evergreen…”

• On Flag Design (with Humor):

  • Ted Kaye [37:51]:
    “Although we say good flag, bad flag, it's really effective flag design, ineffective flag design, but that's just not a catchy title.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time (MM:SS) | Segment | |---------------------|------------------------------------------------| | 13:11–14:21 | State songs as symbols and baggage (musical interlude: "Country Roads") | | 17:19 | Brian Greene introduces the main interview: flags and politics | | 18:05 | Ted Kaye joins; context for upside-down flag & Alito controversy | | 18:38–21:21 | Origin and meaning of upside-down flag; Free speech and flag code | | 23:17–23:34 | Molly Ivins quote; flag-wrapping as symbolism | | 24:27–25:00 | Use of upside-down flag in modern protest (Stop the Steal) | | 27:36–30:10 | Appeal to Heaven flag: history, Christian nationalism co-option | | 31:40–32:46 | Challenges of reclaiming co-opted symbols; swastika analogy | | 33:31–34:00 | Range of Revolutionary War and protest flags (Gadsden, Liberty flag) | | 36:39–37:32 | On loving a flag that’s been co-opted; personal stories of heritage flags | | 37:51–38:00 | On judging flag design: “effective/ineffective, not good/bad” |

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Takeaways

• Flags are powerful symbols whose meanings evolve, and context is everything. Even historic flags can become deeply divisive once claimed by polarizing groups.
• Vexillologists tend to observe and document, rather than prescribe—emphasizing the importance of intent, historical context, and personal meaning.
• The struggle to reclaim symbols, or even maintain their original meanings, is both common and fraught—a microcosm of bigger cultural debates.
• You can love a flag, but its meaning is never entirely yours. As Ted Kaye says, “You can love a flag and have it co-opted by someone else.”

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For listeners interested in the intersection of culture, law, speech, and symbolism—this episode of The Gist delivers a thoughtful and engaging primer on why what we fly, and how we see it, still matters.

Transcript

[Ted K.]

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[Brian Greene]

From Peach Fish Productions this is the Gist and I'm former guest and now guest host Brian Greene. As Mike Pesca sadly walks into the sunset and steps away from his daily duties here at the Gist, we've decided to do something a little different. On Mondays and Fridays, a rotating cast of characters, including myself, will reach into the archives for favorite episodes chosen by listeners and and members of the Peach Fish family. Then on Wednesdays, we'll bring you brand new never before heard interviews that Mike recorded, edited, and then apparently buried under his McMansion located in Soho. Because a house in Soho is a perfectly reasonable thing for a podcaster to own. Podcasting is and always will be the only get rich quick scheme that actually works. So I'll be hosting the first few episodes. I normally host the Commercial Break, a podcast I named after the part of the show you prefer to skip. Naturally, Mike thought I was an obvious choice. On today's show, we're going to begin with an opener selected by former producer Joel Patterson. In this segment, Mike examines state songs and political baggage hiding inside of them. Nothing says healthy democracy like a vicious argument over which tune best represents Oklahoma. And with the World cup still fresh on our minds, the image of the heroic Spaniards raising the World cup statue and wondering why Donald Trump was all of a sudden a member of the team. You may remember that the song Country Roads was getting quite a workout, but alas, then the US national team reminded everyone that we are America. This is soccer hope is dangerous, and eventually you run into a powerhouse just about the size of Belgium. And for long time, just listeners about the size of Belgium is less of a geographic description and more of an official unit of measurement. And finally, listener John Kneeler takes us into the world of vexillology. That's vex il ology. We'll hear from everyone's favorite flag expert, Ted K. State songs, flags, politics, and a surprising amount of emotional baggage attached to fabric and music. That's all coming up on this episode of the Gist.

[Mike Pesca]

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I pop one every day and I have to say I feel a little bit more energy and I've been very successful at disabling bombs with my nose underwater. No, I joke about that, but I do feel a little Vim. Fatty 15 was developed to support healthy aging for all, from kids to parents to grandparents. That's why award winning fatty 15 is now available as pure capsules, Delicious Apple mint gummies for teens and adults, and Yummy Berry Blast gummies for kids. Fatty 15 is on a mission to support healthy aging for all, including all ages and stages of life. You can get an additional 15% off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.com gist and using code gist at checkout. It's Tuesday, May 10, 2022 from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca. We've got elections today in West Virginia and Nebraska. And usually right here in this space, I talk about the news, like those elections. And then the spiel will be analysis. And today the spiel will be analysis. But now I'm going to do an analysis of analysis, because I was thinking of West Virginia and Nebraska, and it struck me that those two states have the best and the worst state songs. To be fair, beautiful Nebraska, their song is tied for worst with about 35 other states. You could make the case that there are a few that are clearly underneath it, like Maryland, my Maryland, because that song is advocating secession, calling Lincoln a tyrant, a despot and a vandal. It includes the lyric, who saw she spurns the northern scum. And this is why, after repeated attempts by the Maryland General assembly to repeal the song attempts in 1974-1980-1984-2001 to 9, 16, 18 and 19, they finally got it removed in 2021. And then you have Carry Me Back to Old Virginia, which is still recognized as the traditional song with lyrics like it sung from a slave's perspective. So lyrics like, this is where this old darky's heart longed to go. There's where I labored so hard for my old massa. Yeah, quite problematic. Most of the other state songs aren't offensive. They're so inoffensive as to be generic. I also don't think, contrary to the state anthems, Hail Massachusetts, Hail Minnesota and Hail South Dakota, that no one is going to be hailing your state from out of town, unless they're actually weather reports. And I got it wrong. Think about missed opportunities, right? New York could have gone with Sinatra. New York, New York. No. Rochester would be offended. California, so many choices. They went with I love you, California, music by Abe Frankenstein. Then there's Nebraska's blanthem. Plainer than the vast expanse from Lincoln to Lake McConaughey. Beautiful Nebraska,

[Ted K.]

peaceful land Laced with many rivers and the heels of sand.

[Mike Pesca]

I can't really help that that much, but if you think about it, the best state song in the land is Take Me Home, Country Roads,

[Ted K.]

Almost Heaven, West Virginia.

[Mike Pesca]

That, along with the other John Denver song, Rocky Mountain High, are perhaps the only two state songs you would sing if they weren't attached to states. People did sing them. Take Me Home, Country Roads went to number two in 1971. It's so good, the chorus is so melodic that when you think about it. Listen to the chorus. You know it.

[Ted K.]

Take me home to the place

[Brian Greene]

I belong

[Ted K.]

West Virginia, Mountain mama Take me

[Brian Greene]

home,

[Mike Pesca]

country roads Take me home to the place I belong West Virginia, mountain mama, take me home, country roads. Those lines don't even rhyme and no one has complained or possibly even noticed. Country Roads is so good. I believe I can take the lyrics to Beautiful Nebraska, sing them in my voice and improve them. Let's see, let me pull up those lyrics now. Beautiful Nebraska, peaceful prairie laced with rivers and the hills of sand. Dark green valleys cradled in the earth. Where else would you find valleys? That's how cradles work. Head south to Kansas, King a Louie through Missouri, then through Kentucky, Route 60 become 64 and soon you'll find you are in West Virginia. So much better than Nebraska as a song.

[Brian Greene]

We'll be back with Vexillology Corner after the break.

[Ted K.]

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[Brian Greene]

welcome back to the Gist. We now travel to the distant past of 2024. When Mike spoke with Ted K. About flags, sedition, Sam Alito, and the noble American tradition of trying to reclaim a symbol after someone else just made it weird.

[Mike Pesca]

When I saw on the front page of the New York Times the issue of flags and Supreme Court justices and their wives, I said, well, you have thrust upon the nation a conversation and thrust upon me the opportunity to do a new Vexillology Corner. Joining us as always, is the secretary, the reigning secretary, though there are elections coming up in 2024 of the North American Vexillological association, the author of Good Flag, Bad Flag for a long time, the editor of Raven, which is the Journal of Vexillology, Ted K. TED welcome back to the gist.

[Ted K.]

Thank you very much. I'm joining you from Portland, where it's not raining today, but it might be so so raining is a good word, raining.

[Mike Pesca]

So let's start with the first flag that we knew about as relates to the Alitos. It was a US Flag, but flown upside down. If you had asked me beforehand what's that mean, I would say a sign of distress, and mostly as a boat, as a ship, as perhaps a adrift naval vessel would hoist up. Was is that was that essentially your understanding of what an upside down flag meant?

[Ted K.]

Indeed. And it's in the US Flag code. It says that the flag should never be displayed with the Union down except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

[Mike Pesca]

And so is has it been common? I suppose you could make a point, a rhetorical point, if you fly the flag upside down during, say, a political rally, that we are in a time of dangerous distress. But has that been common in recent years or even going back further, I

[Ted K.]

think if you go back to the 70s, 60s and 70s, I think that it was flown upside down during Vietnam War protests. Certainly its actual use was maritime and goes back probably to the 17th century. The British and Dutch used it, and then merchant fleets mimicked that practice. I've seen great paintings and engravings from the 19th century of ships in distress or with with a man overboard flying the national incident upside down, Dutch, British,

[Mike Pesca]

American, would you say that it is a violation of the flag code to fly it upside down out of a fit of political peak or even to make a political statement?

[Ted K.]

If you read the text of the flag code, that's what it says.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so there is a clear violation of the flag code, and this is perhaps beyond your ken. The only way to say that I'm not violating the flag code would be to say I'm making this political point, and that's a clear violation of the code of conduct of federal judges. So either way, the Alitos are in a bind.

[Ted K.]

Well, I heard I would jump in and say that the flag code is an etiquette manual. It's, it is a law, but there are no enforcement provisions for it. So it is simply a guidelines on how to treat our national symbol.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, that's the that's by the way, the same with the code of conduct of Supreme Court judges. But go ahead.

[Ted K.]

That is beyond my area of expertise. But you know, I hasten to say that, that often we violate the flag code because, say we don't illuminate the flag when it's flying at night. There's lots of little rules in the flag code. The fundamental message of the flag code is to treat the flag with respect. That's the idea. And personally, I don't believe that flying the flag upside down to make a political statement is disrespecting the flag. I think that feels like a very sound example of First Amendment freedom of expression.

[Mike Pesca]

Do most professional vexillologists, and how professional are they? Maybe you can answer that sub question,

[Ted K.]

but do most call it serious vexillo,

[Mike Pesca]

serious dedicated vexillologists, are they of that opinion on putting the flag upside down or even burning the flag as a political point? Do they prize because flags are speech and symbols, but do they prize the flag over the ideal of speech that it embodies, especially with the US Flag?

[Ted K.]

I haven't polled them, but my guess is the majority would side with me that how flags are used as an expression of political thought, our subject of our study. And it's okay, basically we are the scholars, not the enforcers, although we're very interested and some people are very interested in enforcement. In fact, I, I, I can tell when someone comes and has a point about flag etiquette, you know, says, oh, the flag's hanging the wrong way, it's the wrong place. 90 with 90% accuracy. I could say former Boy Scout, former military. Those are the organizations that have pounded those rules into people's thoughts about how the flag should be used. But, but you know, the, the idea of burning the flag as an expression of political thought is protected First Amendment speech. It's gone up to the Supreme Court and lots of states like to criminalize flag death, secretion, the burning of it. But actually the official way to dispose of a flag when it's worn out is to burn it. So actually the only difference between state sanctioned flag desecration and disposing the flag according to the flag code is what you're thinking while you do it right.

[Mike Pesca]

So it's a men's rail.

[Ted K.]

I like to, I like to quote Molly Ivins, who during the first Bush campaign said, I prefer someone who wraps himself in the Constitution and burns the flag to someone who wraps himself in the flag and burns the Constitution.

[Mike Pesca]

So are the vexillologists that you associate with, and I don't know, maybe there is a rabid band, a radical out group that you are at loggerheads with. But are they generally descriptivists or prescriptivists? Are they generally saying these are flags and this is how they use are used or are they saying these this is how flags should be used? Which is going to lead me to

[Ted K.]

another question about as flag scholars they're generally descriptive.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes.

[Ted K.]

That most people involved in our organization are, are doing the documenting of flags. They might be very interested in how people use the flags because not the flags, just the flags themselves. But its flag use is very interesting. And, and the, the action of flying a flag upside down is not about the flag itself, it's about how the flag is used. And that's, that's very interesting for us.

[Mike Pesca]

So have you been picking up the use of the upside down flag more consistently? And I saw that it happened as you said it happened during Vietnam. There are pictures I posted some of the flag being hung up upside down during the protests of 2020 over the murder of George. But have the vex a lot ologists were you. I don't know if there is a database on this or just general consensus. Did you pick up that the upside down flag had increasingly been used as a symbol of the Stop the Steel movement, if you will?

[Ted K.]

We got a question a couple years ago. People write into us all the time and we answer them. And we have a flag questions and answers page page on our website nava.org where we post the question and answer so that people can see what other people have asked and and perhaps not need to ask us again. But somebody wrote us in 2021 saying sailing in the San Francisco Bay. I see many boats who violate generally accepted navigation rules about our national flag. They don't fly it, they fly it in the wrong spot. But the worst thing I see are many boats who fly fly the flag upside down. A fairly accepted form of saying I'm in distress or danger. No doubt they're in distress, but not life threatening. Is this illegal? Asks the person, could they be cited by the coast guard or harbor police? Is this like calling 911 for a ride to the tavern? So certainly we were, we were being asked about this a couple years ago and my guess is because of the publicity surrounding the Alito use of this tradition, it will become far more widespread because now the nation knows the concept of flying the flag upside down to signify distress and then by extension to signify an opinion that the nation is in distress.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, let me ask You. You are a flag expert, Maybe the flag expert. Most certainly. Vexillology corner?

[Ted K.]

No, just. Just one of many.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, I hold you in high regard. Full mast. The day before the first New York Times story on the Alitos was published. If you were walking in your neighborhood or maybe a different neighborhood in a different place that's not Portland, and you saw a flag flying upside down, would your mind associate that with the Stop the Steel movement?

[Ted K.]

Yes. Yes. I think it's. It's become very consistently flown by folks who believe that. And therefore I. I would not call 911 and say somebody's in distress in that house. I would think it was a political statement, and I would believe that's what it was about.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Ted K.]

Unless. Unless there were some local issue going on in my neighborhood or my city that people wanted to express an opinion about.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay. Now let's talk about the second flag that the Alitos were documented to have flown, the Appeal to Heaven flag. What's the history of that flag?

[Ted K.]

That flag was first developed, adopted in 1775 for the cruisers, the schooners that Washington had under his command when he took command of the Continental Army. It was known as the Washington Cruisers flag. It has a pine tree on it, which has long been a symbol of New England. And the phrase an appeal to heaven, which derives from the writings of John Locke, who had written that when a people's appeals to their government had been exhausted, they could appeal to a higher power, to Providence. And that flag soon became the maritime ensign of the state of Massachusetts. It still is, actually, without the words on it. And it was flown as one of the first naval flags of the Revolutionary War.

[Mike Pesca]

And so has that come to. I know that there were versions of that flag flown at the Capitol on January 6, but has that become so associated with the Stop the Steel movement that if you saw it, you would assume that the person flying that was an adherent to that movement?

[Ted K.]

Well, that's. That's one of many great historical flags dating from the American Revolution. The Gadsden flag is another one. But both of those flags, and perhaps the Betsy Ross flag have been co. Opted to have a different meaning from their simple historical meaning. And in 2015, a religious group promoting Christian nationalism started a campaign to get elected officials to fly the Appeal to Heaven flag as a symbol of belief in Christian nationalism. And some political figures have been flying that flag more and more, including the current speaker of the house, who since 2016 or so has been flying, displaying that flag outside of his office, along with the flag of Louisiana and the flag of the country. And similar to the Gadsden flag which was co opted by the Tea Party movement ten plus years ago, those flags represent more than one meaning. There's the historical meaning and then there's the current meaning. And they're a way to signal one's beliefs without necessarily putting those beliefs on overt display.

[Mike Pesca]

So to what extent co opted it? An attempted co option so successfully co opted it that you'd have to be not paying attention to not know what it means. And I asked you this because San Francisco, the city of San Francisco, recently took down the flag, apparently not realizing that it had any connotation to stop this deal. So I could see it. I could see it both ways. I could see. Well, certainly some people are consciously flying that because of that and some people are underlying that because it's a Revolutionary War flag that has all the historical meaning that it does. But I'm trying to get my finger on how common was the, or how prevalent was the notion that this is now stop the steel flag.

[Ted K.]

Well, commenting on San Francisco, I think it's ridiculous for San Francisco to have taken it down because it was part of a display of Revolutionary War era flags. It's, it's a, it's a set of flags that. It's a set of historic flags in the plaza in San Francisco is developed in the 1970s. Jim Farragan, my colleague who ran the flag store in San Francisco and is currently the treasure of Nava, knows the whole story of that. In fact, he was part of the renovation of that plaza in front of City Hall. I think it's ridiculous to have taken that down because in that use it was a historical flag. However, I understand politics, I understand people getting mad about things. It's a little bit like the swastika. The swastika symbol in Asia is a revered symbol. If you look at a map of Tokyo, you can see where the temples are located by little swastika signs. But that symbol got co opted and in a sense tainted. And I think that's what's going on with these co opting. I think it's, it's very hard to bring a symbol back to its previous use if it's been co opted in the public mind currently.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, that's the question. To what extent in the public mind. I mean, as, as much as it pains me to share this information with you, the exact vexilla meanings of all flags are generally lost on most people. So if it's part of a Revolutionary War display, I'm sure the San Francisco city worker in charge of hoisting it and taking it down every day did not even realize what it was meant or what it was co opted to mean. If it was a swastika, on the other hand, he certainly would have. So I'm trying to in some way get my head around how likely or unlikely it would have been for the Alitos not to have known of its associations. And you don't know the Alitos and you can't know.

[Ted K.]

I would, how I would love to see the contents of the Alito's flag locker. I would love to see if they have A set of 12 Revolutionary War era flags.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Ted K.]

And if they've got them on rotation at their house. Hey, that, that explains it.

[Mike Pesca]

That would be interesting. You know, I know that on Google Maps the picture of their house had them flying that flag. I'm going to, once this conversation ends, go to see if other pictures on Google Maps. You know how, you know how there are the timeline of picture, maybe it will have them flying. I don't know what's, what's another one? Don't tread on me. Right, The Gadsden flag. What are some other famous ones? Oh, there's the Liberty flag.

[Ted K.]

Right. The Bunker Hill flag, things, things like that. We're actually going to publish an article by one of our members discounting the myths around the Liberty flag. That's the flag with the word liberty on it that was first raised in Schenectady, New York in 1774. But that flag was actually originally flown in 1771 as a protest by English settlers against how the previous Dutch settlers were controlling the common lands and they wanted liberty from the, from the Dutch control of the land. So it was a completely different liberty message. But that's a side point. You're talking about famous Revolutionary War era flags and there's a, a bunch of them that could be flown. But I, I do believe that people who are aligned with Christian nationalism are more aware of this symbolism than others. And I think that's probably why that flag was flown as one of the many flown during the January 6th attack on the Capitol. But there were lots of other flags flown. I mean, lots of American flags. I mean, to criticize someone, to saying, hey, you're flying a flag that flew on January 6th. Well, I fly the American flag that flew on January 6th. I don't buy that. I do find it amusing looking at the range of flags. It's instructive. But the amusing thing is the guy that, that's flying the flag of the Republic of Georgia. I mean, wonderful flag. It's a red cross on a white background, the cross of St. George with four smaller crosses in the, in the four quarters, I believe. You know, why would he fly the flag of the Republic of Georgia? I believe that guy thought he was buying the flag of the state of Georgia.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, that's interesting. I thought that maybe he thought he was flying King George's Cross, although that wouldn't necessarily, that, that wouldn't necessarily inform the Stop the Steal movement. That's hysterical though. Also, here's another data point. Leonard Leo, who is a very influential conservative who really steered a lot of the conservative justices on the Supreme Court. He's one of the people who maybe he's the main mover of who is selected to be on the Supreme Court. He was flying an appeal to heaven flag outside of his home in Maine. And So I think ProPublica or yeah, ProPublica wrote about this. Another example, you know, they meant to say another example of someone flying this Christian nationalist slash stop the steel flag. And Leo said I've flown this flag for many years and I couldn't be more clear about my disapproval of the Stop the Steal movement, my disapproval of the January 6th insurrection. So there you have someone who is flying the appeal to heaven flag. Definitely is a Christian, is a nationalist. He would say maybe patriot, but maybe cop to nationalist, but also is foursquare against the January 6th insurrection.

[Ted K.]

Indeed, indeed. The. The flag. You can love a flag and have it co opted by someone else in, in. In a rough parallel, the Confederate battle flag, which was long used as a symbol of heritage rather than overtly hate. The little ladies who run the Museum of the Confederacy in Charleston, South Carolina are livid about the co opting of their great grandfather's flag that honors their heritage by people who want to use it as a symbol of white supremacy. And that's going to be common of anybody who's beloved flag is co opted by another movement and because it means they can't fly it anymore without someone thinking they believe something else.

[Mike Pesca]

Much like the flag itself that we're speaking of, this topic is an evergreen and I thank you for joining us as always. Ted K. Secretary of the North American Vexillological association, author of Good Flag, Bad Flag and Are there really any bad flags? I guess there are. Thank you, Ted.

[Ted K.]

Well, I like to say that although we say good flag, bad flag, it's really effective flag design. Ineffective flag design, but that's just not a catchy title.

[Mike Pesca]

No, no. As someone who speaks in or is an expert in symbols and communication that could be experienced and understood at a glance. You know that's not the way to go.

[Ted K.]

Indeed. Thank you.

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M.

[Mike Pesca]

That's it for today's show. The Gist is produced by Cory Warra. Jeff Craig does How To Ben Astaire is our booking coordinator, Kathleen Sykes does the Gist list and Michelle Pesca is extraordinary in her role as coo. Thanks for listening.

[Ted K.]

Foreign.

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