The Gist List Live w Ethan Strauss

Summary

The Gist: Live with Ethan Strauss – Episode Summary

Release Date: May 24, 2025
Host: Mike Pesca
Guest: Ethan Strauss

---

Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Gist, Mike Pesca welcomes Ethan Strauss for a deep dive into the intersection of sports, culture, and business. The conversation primarily revolves around Caitlin Clark's burgeoning popularity in the WNBA, Nike's strategic decisions regarding athlete endorsements, and the broader implications of social media on sports branding.

---

Caitlin Clark and Nike’s Sneaker Dilemma

Timestamp: 05:14 – 09:15

The episode kicks off with a critical analysis of Nike's handling of Caitlin Clark, a standout player in the WNBA. Ethan Strauss highlights the paradox of Nike's reluctance to produce a signature sneaker for Clark despite her significant popularity.

Ethan Strauss (05:49): “Isn't there a general consensus or heuristic that some players are better than others but the ones who sell shoes are the ones that you look to shoes for, probably falsely?”

Mike Pesca concurs, pointing out that traditionally, NBA players who are not centers often dominate sneaker sales. He references how even prominent players like Kevin Durant faced challenges in securing top-tier endorsement deals due to Nike's focus on other superstars.

Mike Pesca (07:10): “Nike, when Steph Curry was on his rise, didn't care about keeping him because they went, look, we know what sells shoes. Know what sells.”

The discussion underscores a potential multi-billion-dollar oversight by Nike, questioning why a player like Caitlin Clark, whose on-court performance is exceptional, isn't receiving the same marketing support as her male counterparts.

---

Branding, Social Media, and the Evolution of Athlete Endorsements

Timestamp: 10:47 – 18:21

Transitioning to the broader landscape, Mike Pesca and Ethan Strauss delve into how the advent of social media has transformed athlete branding. They debate whether modern athletes prioritize social media followings over traditional endorsements like sneaker sales.

Mike Pesca (10:47): “They care about it. I think that maybe that's a new currency... And social media is part of that currency.”

The conversation highlights a shift from being mere sports figures to becoming influencers with personal brands fueled by online presence. This evolution poses challenges for companies like Nike, which historically relied on athlete performance and popularity to drive sales.

---

Stock Market Performance: Nike vs. Adidas

Timestamp: 37:11 – 37:42

Ethan Strauss introduces a critical perspective on Nike’s declining stock performance juxtaposed with Adidas’s relative stability and growth. This segment explores the financial repercussions of Nike's strategic decisions regarding athlete endorsements.

Ethan Strauss (37:11): “Nike stock price... has declined against general market increases. This is pretty shameful.”

The hosts discuss whether Nike's focus on ideological marketing over pure athletic endorsements has adversely affected its market position, especially when compared to competitors who maintain a traditional approach to sports marketing.

---

NBA Playoffs and Player Injuries

Timestamp: 41:05 – 42:46

Shifting gears, the episode touches upon the NBA playoffs, specifically addressing the trend of key players getting injured and its impact on team performances. Mike Pesca and Ethan Strauss analyze recent instances where star players like Jokic and Tatum suffered injuries, leading to their teams' early exits from the playoffs.

Mike Pesca (41:25): “I think it's a combination. I mean, the schedule is basically what it used to be. It's not like we have a new schedule.”

They debate whether the grueling schedules and evolving defensive strategies in the NBA contribute significantly to these injuries, affecting the overall competitiveness of the league.

---

Conclusion: The Intersection of Performance, Branding, and Market Dynamics

Timestamp: 43:00 – End

Wrapping up, Mike Pesca and Ethan Strauss reflect on the intricate balance between athletic performance, effective branding, and market dynamics. They emphasize the importance of aligning athlete endorsements with genuine performance and popularity to sustain long-term brand success.

Mike Pesca (35:24): “That's the majority of what's happening here... That's what the majority of what's happening here.”

The episode concludes with a contemplation on the future of sports marketing, suggesting that authentic connections and understanding athlete influence in the digital age are paramount for brands aiming to thrive.

---

Notable Quotes

• Ethan Strauss (05:49):
  “Isn't there a general consensus or heuristic that some players are better than others but the ones who sell shoes are the ones that you look to shoes for, probably falsely?”

• Mike Pesca (07:10):
  “Nike, when Steph Curry was on his rise, didn't care about keeping him because they went, look, we know what sells shoes. Know what sells.”

• Mike Pesca (10:47):
  “They care about it. I think that maybe that's a new currency... And social media is part of that currency.”

• Ethan Strauss (37:11):
  “Nike stock price... has declined against general market increases. This is pretty shameful.”

• Mike Pesca (41:25):
  “I think it's a combination. I mean, the schedule is basically what it used to be. It's not like we have a new schedule.”

• Mike Pesca (35:24):
  “That's the majority of what's happening here... That's what the majority of what's happening here.”

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Gist offers a compelling exploration of how cultural dynamics, athlete performance, and corporate strategies intertwine in the realm of professional sports. By spotlighting Caitlin Clark’s unique position in the WNBA and critiquing Nike’s endorsement strategies, Mike Pesca and Ethan Strauss provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the current sports marketing landscape.

---

For the full conversation and additional insights, visit MikePesca.substack.com.

Transcript

[Mike Pesca]

This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece, the one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll find it on ebay. That Miu miu red leather bomber, the cousteau Barcelona cowboy top. Or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion. Ebay things people love. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond. Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea. Sign up for your $1 per month [e-mail] SpecialOffer.

[Ethan Strauss]

Hi, it's Saturday. It's the Saturday show and on Monday I recorded something for Substack with Ethan Strauss. Ethan hosts this the house of Strauss. I've been in the house of Strauss on many an occasion. Ethan's been on the gist and Ethan writes about culture and sports and he wrote a great piece, couple of pieces about how Nike has this cash cow, this golden goose named Caitlin Clark, but refuses to make a sneaker for her for cultural considerations, he says. So we will jump right in the actual whole conversation which lasted over an hour. Go to Mike pesca.substack.com Listen to the whole thing. It's all there for free. A lot of people put bunches of their substack lives behind the paywall.

[Unknown]

Not me.

[Ethan Strauss]

I want you to be able to listen to me and Ethan by going to Mike pesca.substack.com I'm going to play more than half of that conversation right here. We're going going to jump in by talking about shoes and Caitlin Clark and Nike. You know, there's a lot of stress out there and sometimes that could have an impact on your performance. You don't like to talk about it, you don't like to think about it. And then it becomes a spiral getting in the way of your performance.

[Unknown]

Performance.

[Ethan Strauss]

If Ed is getting you down, you know, the Ed that I speak of hims will help you get your confidence and some other things back up. You could be ready when the mood strikes. Feeling a little stalled in the bedroom. Through hims you could get some gas back in the tank. And I'm not necessarily even talking about fossil burning fuels. I'm talking about yes, your love engine. HIMSS is changing men's healthcare by providing you with access to affordable sexual health treatments from the comfort of your couch. HIMS provides access to a range of doctor trusted ED treatments like chewable tablets. Perhaps you've heard of Viagra and Cialis and you're going to save 95% on these name brand medicines. There's an intake form. A medical provider will determine if it's the right treatment option, then they'll send it to you. No insurance. One low price covers everything. Start your free online Visit [e-mail] the Gist that's hims.com the Gist for your personalized ED treatment options. Hisss.com the Gist the featured products include compounded products which are not approved nor verified for safety, normal effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescription required. See website for details, restrictions and important safety information. Prices vary based on product and subscription plan so I really should start wearing clothes other than True Work, but I don't really see why other than social convention. I mean is the argument, well, what about fashion? True Work has me covered. Literally. The stuff looks great. If the issue is performance, there is no issue. True Work is hell bent on creating the most technical high performance workwear in the world. Started in the Colorado mountains where a trade worker knew there has to be something better than this. I mean they haven't really updated denim and canvas in 200 years. So then True Work started engineering for comfort, for protection, for efficiency. They weigh very little but work very hard. Super soft, stretchy sweat, wicking soft shell work pants, wind and waterproof shells, intelligently placed insulation for streamlined warmth. This stuff looks good. I get a lot of compliments. There are very cool colors involved too. Check out the 50,000 5 star reviews upgrade to True Work for a major change in the way you work. True Work helps you be your best when your best matters. I'm now going to tell you how to get a great discount on True Work. But please listen to the spelling. Check out the full lineup and get 15% off your first order at true work.com the gist. That's 15% off at t r u e w e r k dot com.

[Unknown]

The gist let's back our way into WNBA shoe talk. But first, just in general, isn't there a general consensus or heuristic that some players are better than others but the ones who sue Shoes sell are the ones that you look to shoes for, probably falsely, which is to say jumping speed and flight. So Jokic, great player. Who would buy his shoes? They're just gigantic shoes that never leave the floor. You'd much rather buy a John Morant type shoe.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, there's something under Jokic, his person supporting him that I'd be curious to. To have. It would be the horses.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I want to buy a joke. It's horse. Poor yogic horse.

[Mike Pesca]

I mean, look, this is. Again, this is why it's interesting because we have these rules, we have these heuristics, and then they're confounded when we get new information. I mean, yeah, that was the thought process about who sells shoes. So Nike, when Steph Curry was on his rise, didn't care about keeping him because they went, look, we know what sells shoes. Know what sells. Shoes are super athletic, guys. That's what sells.

[Ethan Strauss]

Right?

[Mike Pesca]

That's what people are into. This guy, he's not that. So we don't really. We don't really need him. So he can go anywhere. You can go to Under Armour for all we care. We don't care. And then that's probably a multi billion dollar mistake by Nike. And then Kyrie Irving, who's got a similar game, was a great sneaker salesman for them before he got a little weird, as we'll charitably put it. So it turned out that maybe what was more important than the athleticism was just a size that's not gumpy that we. We're just not into. It's the bigs. The bigs don't sell shoes, the centers don't sell shoes. Maybe there will be one eventually who then confounds that rule, but it's been a pretty solid rule.

[Unknown]

LeBron shoe cell. Right. He's so big, but he also can play small. And I'll get to that in one of my theories. How are. How about Durant? I see him in Dick's commercials. Does he sell shoes?

[Mike Pesca]

I don't think that. I think early on his shoes were really good and the advertising was really good, and I think they sold pretty well. We'll never really know because unless you're the top one, they're going to keep it a little close to the vest as far as how much you're really selling. But that was a point of pain to a degree with Kevin Durant that he. So here's the thing.

[Unknown]

Behind the scenes, what wasn't Ethan?

[Mike Pesca]

What was Kevin Durant? Or I have.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Um, you know, so I've made this point in my writing that we conceive of these players as having a primary employer and that is their basketball team. But your primary employer is the company that pays you the most. And for the very tippy top, that is the shoe company. And that's where your status is truly reflected to some of these guys. And they all want to be the face of the shoe brand that they're in front of. They all want to be the face of Nike if they're at Nike. And for Kevin Durant, I don't think it was comfortable to be second. He's famously said, I don't want to come in second. But when he was at Nike, it was Kobe and LeBron. And you're not going to get a chance to be that top salesman because they're going to put all their resources behind promoting the top guy. And there's a huge difference between top and anything else. And he was in that anything else category. And these are the sorts of things that really can rankle them in ways that we don't think about because we don't necessarily care who the top guy at Nike is or girl at Nike is on the WNBA side. But it's such a reflection of their status in a way that's different from the box score sheet or the contract. To walk around America and just see people wearing your shoes, that's something they care about in part because that's something that Michael Jordan pioneered as a big cultural artifact that they just didn't have in other sports.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And maybe if he had signed with Under Armour and they cut the shoes a little differently, they'd be, you know, 16th of an inch smaller and it would have been a three pointer and not a two pointer against the Bucks in the Eastern Conference playoffs. And then he would be a number one and not a number two. Do the Europeans care that much, do you know? What do you know about Luca or the European shoe market? Is it the same thing riding with them on ego?

[Mike Pesca]

I think that they just buy Jordans. I don't think that that culture is as prevalent there. I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of European players just having massive resonance in Europe as sneaker salesmen in a way that the American NBA players fail to. I have seen evidence that the European players maybe don't resonate as much as superstars within the United States, which just speaks to how nationhood is a thing. I don't think it's. Yeah, I think that similar to how perhaps Luka Doncic has more resonance In Slovenia. American players have more resonance in the United States. But that's been this awkward component for people to handle because they don't. They don't know. And then we get into the whole everything can be reinvented. Luka coming to the Lakers, maybe he is a guy that people care about just because of that alchemy of surprise in the Lakers.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Anyway, it's hard to sell a shoe, Mike. Most. Most of the shoes don't do that great. And you need to be something even better than the best player to truly move merchandise. You need to have a thing. You need to have a brand. It's a. It's a difficult thing.

[Unknown]

Okay, so the brand used to be actually nike or the LeBron part of the brand, but it was tied up to a shoe company, and they would tell the players, you are the brand. But now, in the age of social media, they don't need the intermediary of. Of fabric and technology and rubber. Their brand can just be their social media appeal. Are players getting more into that? Do they care more about how many people follow them on Instagram than they do how many shoes they sell?

[Mike Pesca]

They care about it. I think that maybe that's a new currency, because I think sneakers are just less of a big deal now than they were in the 1990s. In the 90s, it broke up the Orlando Magic. Plausibly, that Jack was the best player on the Magic, but his Shaq Gnosis did not sell quite as much as any Hardaway shoes. It was a real point of friction, to the point where in one of Shaq's commercials, I can't remember who did it, but somebody batted away, like a little voodoo doll, the little penny, whatever, we're calling that figurine on the same team together.

[Unknown]

So what is shack? GN A Portman 2 of. I'm not getting the. No, like hypnosis.

[Mike Pesca]

You're hypnotized by Shaq. Obviously, you're shack.

[Unknown]

Okay. Thought it was some economics thing.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I'd have to go back. I'd have to go back in time. I don't think that sneaker sales do as well overall. I don't think we're going to create or recreate that Michael Jordan 1990s moment. I think that's of a lot of different trends where we're just less of a physical world now than we were where a shoe was a huge deal, a shoe release was a huge deal. Everything's kind of like that. Right? And so, yeah, I think maybe there's a different currency now. And social media is part of that currency. And getting popular that way is part of it. And I think it's part of it because again, you're not going to get big monocultural famous, as used to happen, where the major corporations and the sports league would say, you're the face of whatever and you were a household name. I think we're out of the household name era. I don't think we're there anymore. Day for maybe Caitlin Clark. And is that a segue? You tell me.

[Unknown]

I don't know. I could take it to we want to be in the Jalen. We want to be in the OG Ananobi business. But no, let's go. I'll make this one point. I was. This is. You ready for this name drop? I was interviewing Martha Stewart and we both came to the conclusion that because what she does is tangible, but of course, she's on all the social media and she worries a lot about, like maybe a lot of people with grandchildren do, about how much of our life is virtual. And I floated the theory and she really latched onto it, that the yearning for what she brings, actual tangible things. Taking a moment, making a craft, or maybe even caring about your shoes, tending to your shoes. The rise of not just wearing shoes, but the sneaker head culture. Exactly. Because so much of our life is virtual and not tangible.

[Mike Pesca]

I have to turn off my phone. One second. I just got the little buzzy thing. Did you hear that? This is.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I did. I did. I. I thought. I thought we were doing like Morning Zoo sound effects. Well, Mike, to that I say.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, oh. One second. Great. It's not radio. What it is, you know, do you ever have this happen? You resent your friend who's, who's just texting you like they are doing something. I'm so annoyed at my friend texting.

[Unknown]

Me as though I just got a text from my friend while doing this, and he was like, have you been following the whole Daryl Cooper on Joe Rogan thing? I'm like, I have, but not now. Steinberg.

[Mike Pesca]

I feel like that's been going on for a long time as well.

[Unknown]

I mean, I know Steinberg's catching up.

[Mike Pesca]

I will talk about that, by the way, if you want to talk about that.

[Unknown]

No, let's talk. Caitlyn Clark. I've not been avoiding it. I'm so interested in everything you've been reporting. So to bring people. So to bring people up to speed, Caitlin Clark is by orders of magnitude the most popular player in the wnba. She's most popular women's basketball player of all time. So when you have a property like that and you are in a profit making business like Nike, logic would dictate, well, let's do what we can to get behind this person in our stable, let's say make a shoe. However, there is an order or perceived order and the notion that Adrian Wilson, and if people don't know great basketball player, I'm going to say the best women's basketball player. She's been in the league, I think since 2018. So the best, let's call her the best women's basketball player on the planet doesn't have a shoe. But now Asia Wilson is getting a shoe, which is great, I guess, except for the one thing. If Asia gets a shoe, the thinking goes and you tell me if this is correct thinking. But you can't give Caitlyn a shoe at the same time. So right now with the most popular property the WNBA or women's basketball has ever had, all they're doing is letting that field lay fallow out of deference either to Asia Wilson or the idea that there is no jumping the line or maybe something having to do. Whenever you talk about Caitlin Clark having to do with race. So is that a good orientation?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I think that was fantastic exposition. I find that one to be a story because there is this mental block. I think we're. What space are we in, Mike? Are we in what they used to call the heterodox space? I'm not sure what space.

[Unknown]

You mean you and me?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. I think we're almost an intermediary between the worlds to a certain. I'm not sure how to think about it all, but I live in the Bay Area. A lot of my friends, social circle, upper middle class, reliable democratic voting people who rolls roll their eyes at a lot of what might be called social justice or wokeness. They'll admit that it's silly, but there's almost this mental block that it can actually disrupt anything serious beyond hindering the winning of an election. There's nothing.

[Unknown]

Yes, it's a distraction, it's a frippery. And we'll acknowledge this kind of person would say we'll acknowledge that there's way too much emphasis placed on that. But they'll probably be loath to say and some horrible things have resulted from, you know, foursquare getting behind social justice.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And I think they assume that there are adults in the room who will pull the handbrake on any thing of consequence if it gets too crazy. And this is, I think a point of perspective on which I differ with a lot of my very intelligent liberal friends, where they just think that this is all on the margins, that it doesn't actually impact anything. And I actually think that ideology and beliefs matter and get reflected in the world. So when I see a company like Nike and I see how they have done the crazy thing. Mike, they have not done an ad with Caitlin Clark. I'm sorry, that's crazy. That is nuts. They've done a lot of ads. A lot of other people.

[Unknown]

I didn't even realize that I know about the shoe. They haven't done an ad. Everyone's done an ad with Caitlin Clark.

[Mike Pesca]

They have turned roster at where she's one of a bunch of people. Because when you ask them about her, it's this whole, we've got this great roster, the WNBA is coming up and you go, well, yeah, but what about Caitlin Clark, one of the great players we have? I mean, it's this crazy thing.

[Unknown]

Dante Jones and Caitlin Clark, they're all there. Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

The most they've done is there's this little 15 second for social media spot where she's shooting a. She's shooting in front of a barn and it's fit for social media and it's part of their sort of girl bossy, you can't win, so just win campaign. Meanwhile, Gatorade has done at least three pricey real ads with her over the last year. Because Gatorade is operating like a company that likes money and would like to make money from and money. Nike is. It's ideological. It is. I'm sorry, it just is.

[Unknown]

I know, I didn't. I didn't realize why didn't. Kennedy was doing ads for the ad council. Council now just like public service announcements, they're not trying to move product anymore.

[Mike Pesca]

It's insane because it is. And this gets back to this thing about social justice in general, where or diversity, these conceptions. I remember asking Richard Lepchik, the guy who would do the race and gender report cards to different leagues, and I asked him, well, is this a moral cause or a business cause? Diversity in that case. And he actually said business, which rather surprised me. But that's a whole other topic. And I think that some of these companies and some of these institutions, they start operating as though they're a nonprofit and or an ngo and it becomes this focus of. Well, it's not fair if we're putting Caitlin before Asia Wilson because Asia Wilson was the mvp and maybe Caitlin Clark being white is a huge part of this. And so we're just going to pretend that the fifth best selling WNBA jersey player is the person we need to be making expensive commercials about and building a shoe around that. We're instantly going to drop the price point on below $100 for kids, which is very unusual because obviously this isn't a super in demand product. We're basically going to do a Potemkin shoe launch for a product that won't be in demand for social justice reasons. And I will tell friends of mine this and they will contort and pretzel themselves and they go in. Well, there must be a business justification for what's happened is that no, it's just the people. There are enough people at that company who are more worried about fairness and are more worried about this sense of fairness or egalitarianism that it does corrode and infect their ability to be effective business people. I believe that is what's happening. If it's not what's happening, then maybe the answer is even worse, that they're just complete idiots and they have no no idea what they're doing.

[Ethan Strauss]

And we'll be back in a minute with more of me and Ethan Strauss. She's made up her mind to live pretty smart. Learn to budget responsibly right from the start. She spends a little less and puts.

[Unknown]

More into savings Keeps her blood pressure.

[Ethan Strauss]

Low and credit score raises she's cutting debt right out of her life she tracks her cash flow on a spreadsheet.

[Unknown]

At night Boring money moves make kind of lame songs but they sound pretty sweet to your wallet. BNC bank brilliantly boring since 1865. Memorial Day savings are here at the Home Depot so take your kitchen to the next level with up to 35% off plus up to an extra $450 off select appliances like LG. Plan your get togethers with an LG.

[Mike Pesca]

Refrigerator you can count on for years.

[Unknown]

To come at the Home Depot. And with the connected ThinQ app, you'll know if the door is left open and when to change the filter. Spend less time worrying this Memorial Day with savings on lg, America's most reliable appliance brand at the Home Depot. Offer valid May 15 through June 4, US only. See store or online for details.

[Ethan Strauss]

We're back with Ethan Strauss, and in this portion of the conversation we got into some of the finer technicalities of NBA shudem.

[Unknown]

What's the upside of a Caitlin Clark shoe? Do the experts you talk to say.

[Mike Pesca]

I mean, it's billions of dollars really goods again? Another company that wants to make Money that apparently. And I know this is weird. They. They, like. They want, you know, profit and, you know, margins. It's strange. Announced that due to unprecedented demand, they are selling Caitlin Clark's merch in every one of their over 700 stores in America. This company that aggressively wants to make money is doing. She's a huge deal. Nearly 19 million people watch that NCAA championship that she was. And when she wasn't in it, about over 10 million fewer people watched the game.

[Unknown]

That is correct. And I did note that in the. In the wall in the New York Times article about this, which quoted you to make the point about how popular women's basketball is. They didn't quote the most recent. The statistics for the most recent tournament, which is an average of 8.5 million and a high of 9.9. They went back two years when Caitlin Clark was in it, and there were 19, 18.9 million watching. And then they said, and some of those players have jumped to the NBA.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, some of those players. There's a lot of garfunkelism. There's a lot of. What about.

[Unknown]

A lot of Otism?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, there's a lot of. Yeah, but that's the. I mean, that's the crazy irony of this whole situation, is that.

[Unknown]

Are you saying A.J. wilson is the Andrew Ridge Lee of this situation now? You're.

[Mike Pesca]

I was stepping outside my comfort zone to make this. Now I'm far outside.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Mike Pesca]

There's just this incredible irony to it because she is such a cultural mover. She is so huge. She is the rare. So rare, vanishingly rare mainstream figure to appear after social media reached critical mass. And that's the reason we have to pretend it's not true, because there's so much resentment over what everybody can see and what everybody can feel. That's why we have to say the other players. That's why we have to say the rookies joined. That's why we have to say Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese. We can't just admit what's happening like we could when it was Tiger woods in the 1990s. In golf, we can't just have a situation where we go, wow, Tiger woods really is creating a boom of interest in golf. There's so much resentment over this Tiger woods figure that it has to become, oh, it's all rising. It's all. I mean, there was the Mystics owner when Caitlin Clark was on the COVID of Time saying, why couldn't it have been? I think she was named athlete of the year. Why couldn't it have been? I Don't know, WNBA players of the year or whatever sort of thing.

[Unknown]

Yeah, why couldn't you have watered it down, made it, make it meaningless and have fewer people want to buy that magazine? Why wouldn't they do that in their business interests like Dick's.

[Mike Pesca]

Dick's owner had to move the venue to Verizon center or whatever it was because of Caitlin Clark, because that's what she can do. And it's just fast. It's fascinating for me to watch, to watch this unfold, to just look at $1 billion on the sidewalk and look at both Nike and the WNBA cross their arms and just go, no.

[Unknown]

How many? And what's the potential market for Asia Wilson sneakers? Like judging by print run and all other metrics that we know.

[Mike Pesca]

I mean, I don't want to be too dismissive because life is mysterious. And maybe as the counter signal to Caitlyn, this becomes a market who.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Unknown]

Not only the Washington team are mystics. We're all in a mystical realm and anything can happen.

[Mike Pesca]

But I, I don't know if there's a market for fifth best selling WNBA jersey. And one of the reasons for it, as we said on the NBA side, is that Bigs don't sell shoes. Her game is reminiscent of Tim Duncan's. Tim Duncan for a time was the best player in the NBA and at that time Allen Iverson was the best shoe salesman in the NBA. So they're operating off this false premise that Asia Wilson should move shoes because of how good she is. But that's not what this game is about. I don't know what the market is. I don't think there's much of a market. They said that the shoes they sold in her weekend launch sold out. But the rumors, the whispers are that they only made a few thousand available. Don't sue me if that's not true. But that seemed to be more of a way to gin up interest with scarcity. I don't think there's much of a market beyond whatever the market would be if you had almost anybody run it. But they have a theory of how this is supposed to go. They've got a big ad campaign, they're spending a lot on it. It's very identity forward and we'll see. I just think that it's, it's crazy. It's crazy to delay the whole. They could have come out with the Clark shoe for her rookie year. They did that for LeBron. They've done that for other players. They could have made ads. They just don't Seem to want to because they don't want the backlash. That seems to be what this is all about.

[Unknown]

How do we know that? It's a sense of social justice, emphasis on society versus a couple important stakeholders within their organization. Maybe you'd pissed off Asia Wilson and a couple of big and WNBA players. Maybe you'd piss off a couple of whoever you know has the WNBA portfolio within Nike. And it was more about a couple of potentially, you know, keeping people who are within your fold happy.

[Mike Pesca]

If I talk to enough people, I've looked for these explanations as Phil Knight just hate Caitlin Clark. I, I don't know. It's the pro. It's just we're trying to make it smarter than what it is. This is just what it is. It's discomfort. It's extremely online executives. It's worry about controversy and handling all the toxicity emanating from that league and that's enough to derail this process. That's just what it is. That's what the people involved tell me. So that's what I'm going to go with. And that's what it looks like.

[Unknown]

I can't prove this. You never can. But I firmly believe that if Caitlin Clark weren't white, she would be, I'm gonna say, just as popular. But if you want to say 90 something percent as popular can't prove anything. And the reason is Caitlin Clark statistics are right there in terms of popularity. What she did in college was unprecedented. And there are precedents for male basketball players who have that game. And when Steph Curry, a person smaller than everyone else, makes amazing passes, but most importantly shoots from a great distance at a great length that normal human beings cannot comprehend of. It always, always captures the imagination of fans and especially children who buy shoes. She is the exact sort of player as Steph Curry is.

[Mike Pesca]

Maybe I love this thing, the, the pro Caitlin Clark argument. And it's like. Are you calling children racist? Is that what you're saying?

[Unknown]

What I'm saying is her game. Her game quite clearly transcends race. Her game is not even. Talk about aesthetically beautiful. The parts of a game that people can't look away from. When you show someone a highlight, it's either an amazing aerial dunk with which women can't do on the 10 foot rim. I mean, women can dunk and Brittney Griner has dunked a ball technically in a game, but this is like technically. And there's no aerial movement. So the only things in basketball that people love are amazing dunks and unbelievably long shots. And Caitlin Clark has done more unbelievably long shots than anyone in women's basketball and most men in men's basketball. And that's why no matter her race, she'd be unbelievably impressive and followed and everyone will buy her shoes.

[Mike Pesca]

My God, I'm going to out woke you. I'm going to out woke like I'm going to be, I'm going to be aggressive on this one. I don't know, I don't know if there'd be that kind of resonance. I think that there's this ineffable quality to branding and I think white Iowa girl, humble Iowa girl, is part of her branding and is especially part of her branding because of the insane backlash which then gets a bunch of people invested in her because they feel like she's being treated unfairly because she's white. And if she was black, that wouldn't happen. There'd be a lot of affirmation and celebration, but there wouldn't be that alchemy of cultural controversy. That's not her fault. That keeps us all bubbling in the culture war makes it more of a topic. I think the black Caitlin Clark would be popular. But you know, the funny thing is you brought up Steph, but that was a controversy in a very similar way that we've memory hole because he's been so great for so long that people forgot that they had whatever objections they had. Steph Curry's rise was so sudden from guy people liked to oh my God, is this guy the best in the sport? A lot of these conversations happened and a lot of this sort of resentment, it was very similar. And there was a lot of cultural commentary that does white America just love the little light skinned black dude and they wouldn't feel that way for another guy. And they that that's part of the whole thing and that's part of the appeal that was trying to be explained. Then Steph did it for as long as he did it and people forgot about that whole thing, but it was not dissimilar. And end of the day, yeah, maybe these things are part of why somebody becomes popular. But the conversations often happen from this resentful perspective as though we can just sub them out for somebody else and you can't. So yeah, maybe Caitlin Clark being white is part of her popularity, but there's only one Caitlin Clark. So I don't really know what to do with that. If somebody's coming to me and expressing that misgiving, I don't know what to do with that because she's here, she's great, she's really popular. I don't know what, we should just be in denial of it because it's not fair that a hypothetical person exactly like herself wouldn't be as popular. That just seems crazy to me. And yet that's the way a lot of people approach this sort of thing.

[Unknown]

I. Yeah, my last point on that is the only way to prove if. Well, first of all, you're right, she wouldn't. Without the racial component, there wouldn't be quite so many fights and awful announcing and, and barstool sports and all of them wouldn't be as involved in it. And that draws attention. But I think the people. And maybe you can make an argument and that draws attention. And then somewhere downstream of that attention, an eight year old girl goes to an NBA game. But you know, there's a million girls playing high school basketball. It's like actually I think 600,000. But there is hundreds of thousands of girls playing high school basketball and they have been doing this for years and years and years and they all want someone to root for. And the most obvious person for them to root for is the most exciting player. So if you're going to have someone who is orders of magnitude more exciting, and she is than everyone else on the floor, I think it's going to draw attention. The only way I could really work the experiment is to say, all right, is there a version of Caitlin Clark who is also black doing this not in the women's game but in the men's game? And that's Steph Curry. Are there white great NBA players who you could argue are the best or second best player in the NBA and are they so much more popular in jersey sales and the black players? And Sabrina Ionescu is not. And Tarasi are.

[Mike Pesca]

Does everything though she does have a.

[Unknown]

She has a shoe. I know. But the excellent white NBA players aren't close to Caitlin Clark in popularity. Many of the black players in the NBA WNBA surpass Caitlin Clark. I just think that when you, when you norm for all the variables, it's just how good Caitlin Clark is in the aspects of her game.

[Mike Pesca]

That's the most important component. That's the other things. And what happens with Think Piece, the Think Piece world and when it gets into the New York Times and all these other places, you end up having people who then will be very forward with the census category stuff and will overrate and overstate the importance of that because they don't care about the core of it, which Is basketball. The guy who runs black sports online. I'm trying to remember. Robert Little was saying that. He was, he, he kind of teased it like a showman of all. Explain why all these black men like Caitlin Clark. I'll explain it. I'll explain it. I'll explain the answer. And then you're, it pulls in the audience and it's just, it's how she plays. It's just.

[Unknown]

Very good. Turns out she's very good at basketball.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, this is how she plays. I mean, that's, that's, that's what it, that's, that's the majority of what's happening here. That's the majority of what people are drawn in by. And that's not going to be a compelling argument to somebody who doesn't necessarily care too much about basketball and is just a passing observer. But that is that, that is the majority of what's going on right here.

[Unknown]

View okay, Answer about your wife and the House of Strauss or not. I'll just say I have a couple of kids who are somewhat basketballish fans. Sometimes I'll show them a highlight, send them a highlight, pass them a phone. I, I definitely have never sent them a Jon Kel Jones highlight. I definitely have never sent them a Britney Griner highlight. I will never send them a highlight of a big WNBA player, you know, getting a rebound or putting up a good layup in the paint. But I always send them a highlight of Caitlyn Clark and I will send them a highlight of Tausi or someone else doing something amazing from distance. And so I don't think anyone else in the WNBA is just has that highlight brain sphere like Caitlin Clark does.

[Mike Pesca]

No, I don't think so. Maybe I should share some of that stuff. I haven't really thought about what draws, I mean, what tends to draw them in nowadays is people narrating their own live video game playing on YouTube. That's.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

So I have to work backwards from there as far as what works when it comes to getting my kid interest in sports. There's something, though that you said that I did want to dwell on because you talked about a million girls playing basketball if I am going to continue to be sharply critical of Nike, which I wouldn't have felt as emboldened to do when I first had an inaugural article on my sub stack that was critical of them. But back then their stock price was three times higher roughly than it is right now. So now I feel emboldened. Now I feel like I might be right and they might be wrong. Back Then there was a. Well, you know, I have my observation, but who am I to say? Am I still here? Do I have a stable enough Internet connection? I don't see her. Did I go?

[Unknown]

No, no, you're here. You're telling me about Nike stock price and okay, yeah, this is against. I heard, I heard you on Glass Beagle. By the way, there's a Robert Glass Spiegel in the chat. I'm very excited about that. But I heard you and Ryan talking about the fact that the Nike decline comes against general market increases. So this is pretty shameful. And I looked up Adidas stock and they've done much better than Nike have. Granted, they're a German corporation, but wait a minute, they're a German corporation. They're not supposed to have done it.

[Mike Pesca]

As well as Bump is what that is right there that they're getting at Adidas. It's that Ant man. That's the charismatic product to, to move right there. I really did not like the super bowl ad that Nike did because of what you're saying. And what I mean by that is this. It felt, it was this tagline of you can't win, so just win. It was this sort of weird resentment tinged feminism from their roster of female athletes saying, you can't win. They say you can't win. So, so when. And I don't think that there are a bunch of people in 2025 who have that attitude or if that's prevalent. But what is prevalent in 2025 is that a majority of these women's high school basketball players, their dad is going to be a huge component and connection point to the game. You know, this is what I've observed in life with friends and that's what Caitlin Clark had. Her dad was heavily involved as a sports dad and that's also the person who will buy the product. And maybe that's not rebellious and subversive in Nike's estimation. But what about, what about family, Mike? I'm a sentimental kind of guy, but I think real. It just, it feels like if you're going for that market and saying that nobody's really spoken to this cohort is girl bossy, lean in resentment. Is that really the way to go or.

[Unknown]

Yeah, knowledge. That seems to be, you know what that seems to be? That seems to be like when Elizabeth Moss says to Jon Hamm, well, sex sells. And Jon Ham gets extremely mad at her and says, that's what people who don't understand our business try to put together in ads. That's what people who don't understand the actual appeal of women's sports in 2025 are trying to do. They're trying to sell you on a narrative of oppression. And that's not the narrative that the narrative is family connection in the family and hard work and belief in yourself. That is the actual selling point or should be if you're good at this.

[Mike Pesca]

Or fun or just creativity or some of these positive sentiments instead. And I hear this from some of my friends who are in the ad making business and have. I can't reveal too much as far as sourcing, but they get frustrated because I have friends who are huge NBA fans who make ads for some of these companies. Let's just say that they've worked for companies that rhyme with Maiden and schmetity. Is what I.

[Unknown]

Okay, sure, sure. The shmenities.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes, yes. And what they get frustrated with is it's often populated the people in the room that they're working with with these art school kids and people from prestigious colleges that don't. They don't have that kind of love and connection. And so they're going to emphasize, give you an example, Giannis, it's a kumbo. He had a shoe launch and he has a remarkable story. Nobody would that he has a crazy immigrant hardscrabble story. But my friend was just tearing his hair out going, nobody buys a shoe over this. This isn't something. This is something that appeals to a highly educated person about Jonathan.

[Unknown]

Yes. The air refugee. The air immigrant. Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Family in Greece. You know, coming up that that's all very appealing as a narrative, but that's.

[Unknown]

Not into the melting pot. Yes.

[Mike Pesca]

That's not how your 7 year old thinks about stuff and why they want to put a shoe on their foot. That's not, that's not how it goes. But that's what they're. Can't get them not to.

[Unknown]

Okay, I want to talk about the NBA playoffs. Here's the story of the playoffs. Did your best player get hurt? You lost? There are a couple of exceptions. Sga. SGA beat Jokic and neither of those guys were hurt.

[Mike Pesca]

But in general player, your second best player got hurt with the Nuggets. So then they lost.

[Unknown]

Right, right, right. John Moran got hurt. Jason Tatum got hurt. Steph Curry got hurt. All the hurt players, they lost. That's a shame. I think that it's probably chance because we're talking about, of all these hurt players, we're talking about, they were each, they each played in what, nine games or 11 games before they got hurt. I don't know. I don't know if that's enough to say that you're going to get hurt in those games. But it's, it's a little bit plausible to say that the yo yoing of the schedule isn't a. Oh, by the way, Brown, Jaylen Brown also got hurt. He had a torn meniscus. They were eliminated anyway. But you know, add that to the data set. So but you think it's stronger than that. You think that the crazy schedule really is in endangering these guys?

[Mike Pesca]

I think it's a combination. I mean the schedule is basically what it used to be. It's not like we have a new schedule. What we have are new demands placed on the athletes and there is a revolution in how defense was played.

[Ethan Strauss]

And there is where we're going to fade out. There is a bunch more like how Ethan went from being a Warriors fan to covering the warriors for many years to back to being something like a fan. It's all a good conversation. Mike pesca.substack.com and every day I do something called the Gist list. The latest one is called Night of the Living Zombie Corn. What does it mean? You got to go to figure it out. And that's it for today's show. Cory Warra produces the Gist. Astrid Green runs our social media media. Michelle Pesca is the CBSO of Peach Fish Productions. Co C being her. So is Ashley Khan. And Leo Baum is the intern. The intern. And thanks for listening. The Gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.