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- [00:00]
Mike Pesca
The gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses. Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Introducing Family Freedom from T Mobile we'll pay off four phones up to three 200 and give you four free phones, all on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com familyfreedom up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phone via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement. Example Apple iPhone 16128 gigs $829.99 Eligible trade in example iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end in balance due if you pay off early or cancel Contact Us It's Saturday. It's the Saturday show and a couple days ago I was oh, let me tell you what we do on the Saturday show because you're not oriented by now. We bring you one from the vault and one from the week only. About a third of the time we don't do that at all. We bring you some other appearance and that's what we're doing this week. So I was on the Good Fight Club on Wednesday, the day after the election. Although we really got into it, the biggest fight on the Good Fight Club was whether to call it the Good Fight Club or the Good Fight Club. I think it should be the Good Fight Club. But you know Yasha Monk, who hosts the Good Fight podcast? He's sticking with the original branding of the Good Fight. It's a very Empire State Building and Empire State Building type situation. So not only is that debate enjoined, but so too are many others, including the what I've branded Dems in array results. I do, I think, have to caveat or ask to risk the Katie Wilson Bruce Harrell result, which I thought a seven point lead was very strong. It's just somewhat strong. And as of today, we don't know who's going to be mayor of Seattle. I care. I care a lot. I think I care a lot more than anyone outside of Washington. And maybe I could get you to care too. Sam Khan, who I hadn't met before, he's a very smart guy. He was one of the participants in the Good Fight Club. And Christine Rosen, who I may have called Christina Rosen. And then I found out her middle name is, I think Alice. It starts with an A. So that's what I meant Christine A. Rosen, not Christina Rosenberg. Not the Good Fight Club. The Good Fight Club, according to Yasha. Enjoy. Okay, the weather's getting colder unless you're in Phoenix, but it's still getting colder. And sometimes when you're in a warm city, you're like, look, I might get to wear a sweater. And sometimes when you're in a cold city, there is this phenomenon known as sweater weather. And Quince has got you covered, literally. $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters. Oh, it's such a luxury. That's the Mongolian cashmere $50. That's what you can afford. And that's the one I love. I have this green quince sweater that is a go to and I am going to go to Quint for additional sweater type coverings. I also should mention that they've gone beyond clothing. They've they have home, bath, kitchen and travel. Some luggage from Quince. Give and get timeless holiday staples that last this season with quince. Go to quince.com/the gist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Quincom. Slash the Gist. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/the gist as fall becomes winter and the weather gets cold, you might need to find yourself outside doing work, wanting to wear effective clothing that looks good and wicks away all of the elements. And that's what True Work does.
- [04:04]
Sam Khan
It's performance.
- [04:05]
Mike Pesca
Workwear built like it matters because you know what it matters and True Work knows that it matters. And there is a lot of time and attention and expertise where real workers on real job sites decided what would work best, literally. And I have to tell you, maybe I'm violating the brand's ideals. I just wear them out and about town. Now I could quickly start doing some work in my yard if I needed to. And that has been done too. But the stuff looks so good that you could wear it everywhere. And I was just out in the rain today.
- [04:38]
Yasha Mounk
Wick Wick.
- [04:39]
Mike Pesca
Wicked. It's really an excellent product. I have a parka from True Work. It's excellent. It's got sleeves that are a little elastic so nothing gets in the arm. And I put up the hood. And sometimes, you know, hoods don't always work with, say, bike helmets, but this one does. But if a hood does work with a bike helmet, it might not work with just a head. And I don't know if it's my helmet shaped head, but this thing works really well. Plus, I wear the T2 work pant the S4 solution hoodie the stuff is just excellent. Upgrade your day with workwear built like it matters. Get 15% off your first order@True Work.com with code the gist Listen how I spell it because it's a little wrinkle. T R U E w e r k.com it is Wednesday, November 5th, and.
- [05:38]
Yasha Mounk
This is the 11th installment of the Good Fight Club. Today I'm delighted to be rejoined by my friend Mike Pesca, who is the host of the excellent daily podcast the Gist. I have for the second time on the podcast, but for the first time on the Good Fight Club, Christine Rosen, who is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and not the Heritage Foundation. Welcome, Christine.
- [06:05]
Christine Rosen
This will become important later.
- [06:08]
Yasha Mounk
We will get back to this. And I have, for the first time, I believe, an I love the Goodfell Club or the podcast as a whole, my dear colleague Sam Khan, who is a frequent voice in the pages of Persuasion, of which he is an editor, as well as the author of a Castalia substack. Welcome, Sam.
- [06:25]
Sam Khan
Thank you so much for having me.
- [06:27]
Mike Pesca
I gotta break in. Yasha, I think you should be calling it the Good Fight Club, not the Good Fight Club. It's subtle, but it's like the Empire State Building versus the Empire State Building. I know you want to brand the Good Fight thing, but the Good Fight Club. This is my suggestion. Take it if you will.
- [06:43]
Yasha Mounk
And Mike, just remind me, after Christine mentioned that she has a labradoodle, what point did you make about that breed?
- [06:50]
Mike Pesca
Okay, Labrador doodle is fine to call that particular dog, but when you get into the goldendoodles and the other doodles, they should not doodles because the duh in labradoodle is borrowed from the Labrador, not the poodle. So this is my point. You don't have a goldendoodle. I mean, Christine doesn't have a golden doodle, but if you think you have a golden doodle, you really have a golden oodle.
- [07:11]
Yasha Mounk
Wonderful. Well, that's a way of avoiding talking about the New York City mayoral election. So we are recording this on the morning after the mid midterms of 2025 in which Democrats did very well across the board, winning all statewide races in Virginia and very good result in the House of Representatives there. Or perhaps it's called the assembly winning. After some trepidation, the gubernatorial race in New Jersey and of course the Democratic nominee, Democratic Socialist Zoran Mamdami, winning the mayoral race in New York City. Mike, what do you make of these.
- [07:58]
Mike Pesca
Elections Dems in array. I think that though it was expected that the Democrats would win, perhaps we retroactively discredit some of the coverage beforehand. Well, the race looks close in New Jersey. Jack Cittarelli making inroads? Not really. Uh, Harris lost to Trump by 6 points. And it looks like, it looks like Mikey Sherrill beat Jack Ciarelli by 13 over there in New Jersey.
- [08:29]
Yasha Mounk
Wait, Harris won by six points? You mean in New Jersey?
- [08:32]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, sorry, Harris. I could take that again. The Harris Waltz ticket won by only six points in New Jersey in the presidential election, if you want to take that as a baseline. And Mikey Sherrill won by 13 against Cittarelli. So maybe we could say, well, New Jersey's all a Democratic state. Two days ago you could come across dozens of stories about the supposedly close race. Wasn't close in Virginia, wasn't even close in the Virginia down ballot races that had some controversy. Other races like in Maine, which is a very, very purple state, as we know with, with Susan Collins being the senator there, very roundly rejecting a requirement to bring IDs to the poll in California with their Prop 50. So they'll be redist restricting. And there is for someone like me, who if I had to choose would definitely say Democrat over Republican, but also am mostly a centrist, there was a veering away from pure radicalism when given the choice. I will just say that although Mamdani has a mandate, it's a 10 point mandate, around 10% was the margin of victory. So maybe that will rein him in a little rather than him thinking that he has all New Yorkers behind them. That's a data point. And the other one I'd point to, this didn't get as much coverage, but I was interested, slash concerned in the Seattle mayor's race where a woman named Katie Wilson, and I can't say governor or even a former state senator, she was an activist. She has run a nonprofit organization with no employees. In the primary, she beat the incumbent Mayor Harold by 10 points. And it looks like it looked like she, without any experience and with very, very left wing ideas, was going to be mayor. But not so right now Harrell has a pretty decent lead and that could change. But it looks like for the first time, an incumbent, for the first time, and I think four consecutive elections, the incumbent mayor of Seattle will win. And he's not that popular. But the entire idea of what we as the electorate, especially the electorate in very blue places is going to do is react as we resoundingly as we can in as firm an anti Trump statement. It's not entirely true. So there is some hope for. I don't care about centrism, but I do care about rationality and moderation.
- [10:53]
Yasha Mounk
Christine, are Democrats in array to the extent that Mike is telling us? And should this make Democrats optimistic about their ability to make big inroads in the House of Representatives in the midterms and, you know, winning the presidential elections in 2028, or could this be a Pyrrhic victory?
- [11:13]
Christine Rosen
I think they do have reason to be optimistic. And then Republicans have reasons for concern, mainly because two data points that I was struck by in all of these elections. One is that in places like New Jersey and Virginia, where a non college educated, non white population that had voted For Trump in 2024, they swung back to the Democrats this time. And those are the voters that returned to all pollsters, their key concern not being the culture war, not being foreign policy, but kitchen table economic issues. And those were the things that I think Spanberger in particular spoke to on the campaign trail very effectively. So that is, that raises alarms for GOP ers who think with Trump not on the ballot next time and that very fragile coalition, but interesting coalition he built in the last election, they've got to win those voters back. The other thing that was really striking to me was the gender divide among young people. Young women were overwhelmingly voting blue in these elections. I mean, most remarkably in New York City, but also again in Virginia and New Jersey. So that says another thing, which is the Republican coalition is not reaching those women and they should probably think about why. And so both of those things, looking ahead to 2026 and then to 2028, I think are something the Republican Party has to be concerned about. The reaction of Trump to this election was also notable. First he claimed that the California ballot initiative might have been fraudulent. Then he stamped his feet and said, well, the reason you lost is that I wasn't on the ballot. Which actually is true as a matter of politics, but very disheartening, I think, if you're a Republican looking at next year, and that's what they're looking at. And so his demands for loyalty and the continuing government shutdown and some of the statements he's made about that suggest to me that Republicans are going to have to start thinking about, do we start treating this guy who has dominated our politics for the last decade as a lame duck and what are the risks to that, or do we continue on the loyalty train and what will that do in the midterms?
- [13:11]
Yasha Mounk
Sam, you wrote a pretty Downcast piece about Zoran Mamdami a few days ago published on Persuasion. You then said that his victory speech reconciled you to him somewhat to me earlier today. What are we to make of Mamdami? What will his marital mean for New York City? And is he, as so many media outlets in the United States, and especially in Europe are saying, the future of the Democratic Party?
- [13:42]
Sam Khan
Yeah. So I've kind of jumped on the bandwagon a little bit since writing my anti Mamdani speech. So I'm really of two minds about him. I mean, first, he's really charismatic. I was really impressed by the victory speech. He hit all the right notes. He probably did throughout the campaign. I think in this era, what matters far, far more than anything else, more than policy, is just personality, politics. And so, to some extent, I mean, Trump proved this, Obama proved it in a different way. It's just if you have the gift for this, then you kind of deserve to be the standard bearer of your party in some way. And he has the gift, and so that it's very hard to take that away from him. On the other hand. Well, for one thing, I'm like the last Andrew Cuomo fan. I thought he was an excellent governor. I thought he really proved something in 2020 when he really took the national stage from Trump at a critical moment. I understand that he's kind of damaged goods now, but basically, I felt that New York City would be lucky to have him. I was surprised that he did as poorly as he did. And I think if he had won, that would have really sent a message that the Democrats have kind of gotten over the woke era. They're sort of back to the center. They have a guy who really radiates authority, knows what he's doing, managerial experience. And unfortunately, with Mandani, I'm sure he'll be fine as a mayor. New York City is ungovernable anyway, so he'll be no worse than his predecessors. But he's really a target. And. And being mayor of New York is actually the worst possible position to be that target because it means that he can't really speak to a national audience, but the Fox News crowd can really focus in on him. So I think it's a real liability for 2026, unfortunately.
- [15:38]
Yasha Mounk
Yeah. I have to say that I've been really of two minds about this election in New York and the broader election for the last few days. I'm very glad the Democrats are, in a way, it is very important for them to be in a good position to take back the House of Representatives and at least make inroads in the Senate in the genuine midterms next year. I also worry that they may take the wrong lesson from this election and to think that they're on a better path than they might be. Mamdani is somebody who I'm predisposed to have deep disagreements with on policy and other things. I don't think that a rent fees in New York is actually going to accomplish anything. You already have deep underinvestment in those apartments and that housing because it just is not financially rewarding to landlords. And so we basically leave a lot of these apartments languishing and people live under very poor conditions in many of them. I don't think that city run grocery stores are going to improve on the many supermarkets in bodegas that you have in New York City. I roll my eyes at many other proclamations that he is the genuine voice of the marginalized and underserved in New York. It's very striking that he did extremely well in neighborhoods like Prospect Heights where I am based on. He did extremely well in Morningside Heights where I lived for many years, close to Columbia University. He did much worse in many of the outlying boroughs. There's an incredible crosstab from exit poll in which he does better among New Yorkers that make more than $100,000 a year than he does among New Yorkers who make less than $100,000 a year. He does better among New Yorkers who rent the private market than on those who live in rent stabilized housing. He would actually have the most immediate benefit from some of those proposals. So I really am not predisposed to think that he's a wonderful thing. I have to say though, and contrary wise, when I look at someone like Abigail Spanberger, I think that she is a center left moderate who holds many of the views that I hold and I wish for every success as governor of Virginia. Having said all of that, if you watch the victory speech of Abigail Spanberger and you watch the debate performance of Abigail Spamberger, and then you watch Zoran Mamdami's debate performance and Zoran Mamdami's victory speech, it's very hard not to think that Mamdaami is onto something. That there's something so lifeless and bloodless in the moderates in the Democratic Party, so scared of their own shadows, so incapable of actually making clear what the position on important issues of a moment is, speaking in such kind of consultant led platitudes that it's just very hard to cheer them on. And Mamdaami, who stands for a lot of things I don't agree with, has an authenticity and a charm that, despite my disagreements with him, speaks to me. And so I'm sort of worried that Democrats seem to be stuck between candidates like Mamdani and AOC and others who I think are far too far to the left to be credible national level candidates. They can do well in a city like New York, but I don't think that they're going to be a good brand for Democrats in the midterms next year or in 2028. And moderates like Spanberger, whom I agree on a bunch of stuff but who just don't seem to me like compelling candidates who I think are going to be weak for other reasons. Mike, am I talking myself into too much pessimism here?
- [19:30]
Mike Pesca
I think that Mamdani has charm but not authenticity. In fact, so much charm he's convinced a smart guy like you that he might have authenticity. And I don't. You also, there was a phrase there that told me a lot about if he's the future of the Democratic Party, it's a. Especially in Europe, they think so. So I would look that as a, look at that as a somewhat negative indicator. Why would Mamdani be the future? He got a million votes. Spamberger got 2 million votes. Now no one is saying that Spamberger is going to run for president or be the future, but she is. We think that she has a good chance to govern well. And I do not think that Mamdani is going to get most of his proposals through or the ones he gets through will be something like city run grocery stores, one in each borough. And a melon will cost the consumers there $3. Wonderful. But it'll cost taxpayers $12. So Mamdani is great at speeches and ideas and SM smiling and you know, to give him credit, putting his finger on moods of the electorate and how communication works now. But you also said that, you know, he has the misfortune of being in a role where he actually has to deliver governance. And this is one of the things about aoc. She is great at what she does, but what she does is not governing. And since Mamdani will be asked to govern, I think that will hurt his overall stock. I do think you're right. This is where American politics are. The guy who or woman who speaks well, does well on vertical videos, has a real understanding of color scheme and things like this, but in terms of delivering actual policies. And this isn't just wonkery that still does correlate to appeal, not just talking about ideas about policies. And don't you think that one of the reasons that you are freed up with soaring rhetoric, the possibility of your rhetoric really connecting, is directly correlated with the impossibility of so many of those programs working? I think that that is can't be overstated that you get. A politician gets so much credit if they never have to actually put their policies into practice like Bernie Sanders hasn't had to. But now that Mamdani has to, we'll get a little bit of a taste of the pudding, right? We'll be back with another segment from the Good Fight Club. Claude is an AI service that I so love. I use it for writing all the time. It's also excellent for coding and it's improved my professional workflow. I am not going to say that all of the correspondence I get goes through Claude at some point. I mean, if you write in, you're going to hear from me, but just as an assist, saved me hours, hours and hours and hours. CLAUDE is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire world workflow and thinks with you, not for you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. It gives me suggestions I wouldn't have thought of and takes what I did think of and polishes it so that it's what I meant. Or I can tell myself, yeah, that's what I meant. And the thing that it does does artificial intelligence, right? What is intelligence but identifying connections where you didn't see them before? That's what I think. A key definition of intelligence is in my head. And when I think of intelligent humans now that we have intelligent machines, and that's what Claude does. Claude finds connections between all these sources that I wouldn't have found on my own, plus all the professional tools through MCP connectors, GitHub and Jira and HubSpot and Notion. If you work with those, you know what I mean? Ready to tackle bigger problems. Sign up for Claude today and get 50 off Claude Pro when you use my link. Claude AI the Gist. That's Claude AI the Gist. Right now, for 50% off your first three months of Claude Pro. That includes access to all the features mentioned in today's episode. Claude AI slash the Gist. The Gist is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. And we're back with the Good Fight Club. Unfortunately, should be the Good Fight Club. Uh, I'm not going to play the whole Good Fight Club. I will play this second segment and you could go to Yasha's Persuasion substack or the whole Good Fight podcast to get the full episode. So it's more than a taste, but it's not a full three courses, including dessert.
- [24:53]
Yasha Mounk
Look, I think perhaps our disagreement is less about Mamdani than it is about the state of the moderates in the Democratic Party. And I think how you feel about that depends a little bit on what you think the goal here is. So to me, the goal is that you see Donald Trump and his followers, who I think represent a serious danger to the American republic. You see that this is not a unique American moment, that if you look at the polls right now, you have right wing populist movements, many less extreme than Trump, some more extreme than Trump, leading in the polls in Britain and France, in some polls, Germany and many other countries across Europe. To me, the question is, what does it take to get out of this not just political moment, but political error? And I mean, to do that, you just need a set of moderate politicians who are able to do two things at the same time, to have some authentic, broad appeal that makes people excited about them and to distance themselves from extreme positions that are going to drive a lot of swing voters into the hands of these authoritarian populists. And I think Mamdani, for all of your complaints about his lack of genuine authenticity, and it's kind of manufactured. Here's something. I mean, you look at the victory speech, actually, I was surprised by how much he, I think, quite consciously emulated Obama in various ways. And you can say, well, that's all a smart, clever trick or whatever. But I get through that speech about boredom. And even as my brain is telling me that I don't agree, I think, all right, here's something, right? I try to watch Spamberger's speech all the way through. It's a challenge. And so then the other people have what I think are a set of policy positions that work or that work somewhat better at least, and have that moderation, and they're not going to span the. It's not going to scare anybody. And I think that's probably going to be maybe nothing 20, 28 and that's not nothing. I don't mean Spanberger personally, but some candidate who's like that, who Trump is doing enough crazy stuff that people are going to be really tired and you voting blocks coming back to the Democratic Party on a temporary basis. You know, younger voters, Latinos, all of the people who made Trump president in 2024, you know, are quite as enchanted by him.
- [27:22]
Mike Pesca
It's.
- [27:23]
Yasha Mounk
It may not end up being that hard to win the 2028 election for Democrats, but what on earth's going to.
- [27:28]
Christine Rosen
Happen 2032, Trump won't be on the ballot in 2028. In 2026, I think you're right. But in 2028 the Democrats will then this was. Look, Democratic turnout in all these elections was massive for, for an off year, you know, odd year election and it bodes well for them for 2026. But the anti Trump message, I mean they'll look if the nominee is JD Vance, obviously they'll just annoy him. Trump 2.0 but there is a need there. And that that struggle between the Spanberger I will govern reasonably versus the charisma of a Mamdani. I mean he invoked Eugene Debs too. And I, I'm sure that sent lots of people to, you know, chatgpt. Who was Eugene Debs? He, he was unabashed about being a socialist, but he isn't in a socialist country and he can't make this country socialist. Eugene Debs learned that over and over and over again running for president.
- [28:17]
Mike Pesca
So how they put him in jail.
- [28:18]
Yasha Mounk
Exactly.
- [28:19]
Christine Rosen
And in prison. But if he'll think about how to tone that message, we'll see. But he, he is a little bit like Obama in, in, in the charisma sense and in the ability to really draw and keep a crowd. But I think he's much less savvy politically long term in thinking about how to hone his message going forward.
- [28:37]
Mike Pesca
Spamberger's not a great moderate communicator, inspiring person. But moderates who are plausibly on the short list of people who could be the Democratic nominee do this. Well, depending on your taste. Buddha Judge at least strikes chords in me of these notes and Jon Ossoff and talking about Obama, Josh Shapiro, they have there's talent there, people who can communicate. I just think that it used to be more true that delivering for a politician was a pathway to success. Now I think that what we do when we elect politicians is we essentially elect people who are critics. I mean, you know how Trump always does this. He criticizes as if he's an outsider when he's the most powerful guy in the world and actually runs the agencies. He seems to be nitpicking. But we reward someone who best describes the problem these days. However, if you have a track record of having had to deal with the problem, it's going to hurt you. And I would just say, look at Gavin Newsom. If Gavin Newsom didn't have a state to run, but had a PR shop to run or had a Senate seat where we don't expect any results, especially if your party's not in power. If Gavin Newsom was just a guy with a lot of access to social media and the camera, he would be doing much better than he does do because he saddled with the actual facts of misgovernance to a large degree of that state. And that, I think, is what the position Mamdani is going to be in. And by the way, let me also say, Sam, do you live in New York?
- [30:11]
Sam Khan
I'm a New Yorker, but I don't live in New York right now.
- [30:14]
Mike Pesca
Right. So I agree with you.
- [30:15]
Yasha Mounk
Sam has pre fled Mamdani from New York City where he grew up, to Kyrgyzstan.
- [30:20]
Mike Pesca
Yeah, yeah. You're pre. You pre Cuomo'd. I just need to say this, that I too was a Cuomo backer in terms of his tenure as governor was good. He ran such a bad campaign. He ran out of things to say articulate the three ideas he had. You couldn't do that. He tried to beat something with nothing or though the nothing was, I'll add 5,000 more cops at a time when crime's not bad and people ranked it as a low concern. So that Cuomo of governing in, you know, when he was the first governor to get gay marriage passed, it clearly has passed. And he's lost many miles off his fastball. And now I guess he is moving to Florida, or at least that's what he says he's gonna do.
- [31:00]
Yasha Mounk
I'm gonna end this segment with the stupidest thing you can do as a commentator, which is to make a point about what's going to happen in American politics. And obviously, I don't actually think this precise scenario is going to play out, but if I had to give you one scenario of how the next 10 years are going to play out right now, I would say that we end up with Democratic nominee and running mate Gavin Newsom and Abigail Spanberger in 2028. They narrowly win out against J.D. vance, become quite unpopular relatively quickly, and Donald Trump Jr. Becomes president 2032. And that's why I'm pessimistic and hopefully I'm wrong.
- [31:43]
Sam Khan
Wow. Calling the shot, Yasha, I'm sure to.
- [31:46]
Yasha Mounk
Be wrong about this. I think that's a 10% likelihood, but I think it is.
- [31:50]
Mike Pesca
You don't have to be right. You just have to get the money down on the Kalshi betting markets and watch the contracts inflate and then sell at the right time or very wrong.
- [31:59]
Sam Khan
Everybody will forget about it by that time, hopefully.
- [32:02]
Yasha Mounk
So, Christine, talking about biting your tongue, a lot of people have been biting the tongue at a rival think tank to yours in Washington, D.C. there was a complicated series of events in which Tucker Carlson, who really has become, as Damon Lincoln, has argued in excellent peace and persuasion, the main conduit to antisemites to become semi respectable in American life. And he had invited Nick Fuentes, the leader of the Groiper movement, somebody with openly racist and anti Semitic views, onto his show, gave him a very friendly interview, received some criticism for it, at which point the head of the Heritage foundation, the most influential think tank on the American right today, certainly within the Trump movement, defended Carlson's choice to do so. And the Heritage has a one voice policy which makes it very difficult for employees of the think tank to publicly disagree with the president or other members of Heritage. A few fellows and board members at this point subtly undercut the president of Heritage by pointing things like the meme of somebody standing up courageously to say an obvious truth and saying Nazis are bad. Actually, Robert George, the distinguished political philosopher at Princeton who is a board member of Heritage, wrote a social media post that was reprinted by National Review which implicitly but quite clearly distanced himself from this what is going on at Heritage and what does that tell us about the mainstreaming of antisemitism and other kinds of sewer ideologies on the American right and far right today.
- [33:52]
Christine Rosen
A couple of thoughts. First, I've never been more grateful that my employer has never had a one voice policy. I mean, I argue with my colleagues publicly and privately almost on the daily. And I appreciate that we have a lot more of a freewheeling discussion debate. I think a lot of our work is in that sense more trusted. And the Heritage policy has been around a long time, but it's been enforced in a particular way since Kevin Roberts became the president. And a lot of people left when he first came on because of how that policy was starting to be enforced with regard to the first Trump administration. But what has broken out into the open here is, I think, a really overdue but necessary bit of hygiene on the right. Anti Semitism among what's now called the groiper movement, but basically the online right has been going on for quite some time. I can recall emails I've received during the first term Trump administration because I write for a Jewish conservative magazine that are just absolutely toxic anti Semitism. What Kevin Roberts did was to endorse and this is why I think actually he should no longer be the leader of a major conservative institution. And I hope the board does remove him. I, I know him a little from his Texas days, but I, I am appalled. He is giving an endorsement to Tucker Carlson, who is the preeminent launderer of toxic ideas now on, not just on the right, but just in general. He isn't just anti Semitic, he is anti American. He is pro Russia. He is, you know, he's pro Iran. I mean, the people he has on his show and the ideas he is trying to mainstream are toxic. These are bad ideas. Now should. He has every right to have these people on. He has every right to have Fuentes on. I am, as you know, a free speech absolutist on this. But what is happening here is a conservative institution endorsing him doing that. And I think that's where it's not about deplatforming. However much Kevin Roberts of Heritage wants to claim it is. It is about signaling very loudly to everyone on the right that we want to mainstream these guys because we need them in our coalition. We need all these angry, racist, anti Semitic, misogynistic guys on our side. And I think a lot of people on the right very quickly and loudly said, no, no, not enough. Although I will point to the fact that the speaker of the House, the leader of the Senate, you know, lots of other elected officials on the right, Josh Hawley recently came out and said something too. They said, this is not Ted Cruz of war. Ted Cruz, you know who didn't say anything? The president or the vice President. So I do think, especially around Vance, there is a weird sort of winking and nodding to that group and has been actually since the last election. But I wouldn't say it's just a problem on the right. Anti Semitism is also a serious problem on the left. And the irony is that I don't think it would be unusual at all to see someone like Tucker Carlson have someone like Mamdani on his show to talk about, you know, whatever government run grocery stores. Tucker liked him in Russia. Maybe he'd like it there. But the point is that I, I think that this has been A clarifying moment for a lot of people on the right who wanted to not see that problem for a long time. And now they have to speak out. Look, I think Robbie George's statement was very effective. I wish he'd actually called out Tucker Carlson in that statement. Tucker is someone a lot of us used to work with back in the Weekly Standard days. His journey is something that a lot of people have pretended not to see for a very long time. But it is past time to call out what he is doing, what he is saying and the people he is platforming and promoting and saying. These ideas do not belong anywhere in tolerable conservative movements. And the fact that a president of a conservative institution like Heritage didn't seem to think it was a big deal to endorse that. I'm actually heartened by the fact that this is all everyone on the right's been arguing about for the last few weeks. That shows me that there is still a line that can't be crossed. And I hope we police that line. Not a free speech line, not a de platforming or cancellation line. That is not what this is about. This is about ideas that are so far outside the mainstream they should not be tolerated by anyone. Rant over.
- [37:54]
Yasha Mounk
Excellent rant. I'm sure that Mike and Sam totally disagree with everything you said.
- [37:59]
Mike Pesca
No, I think a one voice policy for a think tank makes about as much sense as a one voice policy for an opera company. You necessarily get a degraded product. You can't even be or call yourself a think tank if you have a one voice policy. Right. You're just a megaphone. And then if the megaphone gets wrangled away by the most odious elements in our society, you're spewing garbage. Which is exactly the case. So these are my thoughts on it there. I totally echo Christine's being appalled by all this. As far as analysis, I'll just talk about two things. One is Richard Hanania, who was or is he's heterodox, interesting thinker. He has some scandals in his past. He used to be quite right wing. Let's say he had an interesting observation, which is maybe something to chew over. Democrats once made their entire moral universe center around oppressed minorities and so one couldn't expect them to stand up to pushy black trans activists around the year 2020. The equivalent for the right now is the young male who is racist, angry and sexually frustrated. The griper people like Trump and Vance can't denounce him. All right, so that is an argument that they don't have the immunity or the structure of how the parties or the ideological movements are working allows this stuff to happen. Food for thought. Maybe you want to chew on it. But the other thing I would say is when you have a no enemies to the right policy or left, it's fine to have that secretly and not to announce that. But once it is known, it becomes an incentivization and then everyone on the right will know there will be no opposition from to me or everyone on the far left will think this too. There is again no immunities in the body to ever stop it, and inevitably will get the outpouring of the worst, most radical ideology once we've told the world that we will be doing nothing to stop that. And some of that phenomenon is, I think playing out. And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the gist. Michelle Pesca I'll list her next first in my heart she is the COO of Peach Fish Productions. And then there's Jeff Craig. He oversees all of our socials. And Kathleen Sykes very much helps me with the gist list. New Improve G Peru Du Peru thanks for listening. Introducing Family Freedom from T Mobile. We'll pay off four phones up to 3, 200 and give you four free phones, all on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com family freedom up to $800 per line via virtual prepaid card typically takes 15 days. Free phone via 24 monthly bill credits with finance agreement. Example Apple iPhone 16128 gigs $829.99 eligible. Trade in example iPhone 11 Pro for well qualified credits end and balance due if you pay off early or cancel Contact Us Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn Ad, go to libsynads. Com that's L I B s y n ads.com today.