The Un "Fudge" America Tour Gets "Fudged" From Within

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Gist – "The Un 'Fudge' America Tour Gets 'Fudged' From Within"

Released on July 7, 2025, by Peach Fish Productions, "The Gist" hosted by Mike Pesca delves into current events and political dynamics with a challenging and provocative style. In this episode, Pesca engages in an in-depth conversation with Z Cohen Sanchez about the Unfuck America Tour, its objectives, challenges, and the internal conflicts that have emerged.

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1. Introduction: Texas Flooding and Climate Change

The episode begins with Mike Pesca addressing the tragic flooding in Texas, highlighting systemic issues within the National Weather Service. He references a report from The New York Times detailing staff shortages in key meteorological positions, which may have hindered effective warning systems during the disaster.

Notable Quote:

"Deadly flooding in this part of the country is also actually quite natural. It's called flash flood Alley."
— Mike Pesca [00:03]

Pesca acknowledges that while climate change may have exacerbated the frequency and severity of such floods, historical data shows that this region has experienced comparable, if not worse, flooding events in the past. He emphasizes the complexity of attributing specific disasters solely to climate change, citing historical accounts from the Guadalupe River's behavior in the 19th and 20th centuries.

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2. Transition to Political Discussion

Pesca smoothly transitions from environmental issues to political discourse, introducing Z Cohen Sanchez, a seasoned political organizer and founder of Soul Strategy. The focus shifts to Sanchez's recent endeavors to counteract right-wing influences on college campuses, specifically targeting figures like Charlie Kirk.

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3. The Unfuck America Tour: Objectives and Strategies

Background of the Effort: Z Cohen Sanchez outlines the inception of her new Political Action Committee (PAC) formed after near-successes in red Florida districts during special elections. The PAC aimed to replicate the successful voter registration strategies seen in previous campaigns, registering a thousand voters and shifting districts significantly towards the left.

Counteracting Charlie Kirk: The core objective is to challenge Charlie Kirk's extensive campus tours, which have attracted large groups of young men with pro-MAGA sentiments. Sanchez explains the tactical decision to deploy influencers like Dean Withers and Parker Get a Job—social media personalities with substantial followings—to engage and sway the same demographic.

Notable Quote:

"They [Turnaround USA] wanted somebody that was much cooler than Charlie Kirk that could be a good messenger for the Democratic Party."
— Z Cohen Sanchez [15:05]

Sanchez emphasizes the importance of virality in their strategy, leveraging platforms like TikTok to maximize reach and impact. The initial events, such as the one at Texas A&M University, saw comparable attendance to Kirk's rallies, underscoring the effectiveness of their approach.

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4. Challenges and Internal Conflicts

Shortly after the successful establishment of the Unfuck America Tour, Sanchez recounts the emergence of internal conflicts and external criticisms. Influencers involved began publicly challenging the movement's leadership, questioning the predominance of white men at the forefront and accusing Sanchez of microaggressions and exclusionary practices.

Notable Exchange:

Mike Pesca: "You put your finger on the fact that you gave credence to the complaint, you elevated the complaint, and essentially that complaint became his complaint. But I don't, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is that what happened?"

Z Cohen Sanchez: "Yes, yes, that's exactly what happened."

Sanchez admits that engaging with critics on social media platforms like TikTok was a strategic error, as it amplified the grievances rather than mitigating them. She reflects on the need for the left to adopt a more decisive stance in excluding individuals who aim to undermine their efforts, contrasting this with the right's more stringent gatekeeping mechanisms.

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5. The Tolerance Paradox and Movement Cohesion

Delving deeper, Sanchez discusses the inherent challenges within left-leaning movements regarding tolerance and inclusivity. She references Karl Popper's "tolerance paradox," highlighting how excessive tolerance for internal dissent can threaten the movement's unity and effectiveness.

Notable Quote:

"We have to be very, very strong in not accepting people that continually do this."
— Z Cohen Sanchez [39:12]

Sanchez argues that without a unified front focused on electoral success, leftist movements risk fragmentation. She draws parallels to Bernie Sanders' campaigns, which, despite internal disagreements, maintained a primary focus on defeating Republican candidates.

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6. Reflections on Leadership and Future Directions

In concluding the discussion, Sanchez emphasizes the necessity for the left to prioritize electoral power and adopt more cohesive organizational strategies. She calls for leveraging influential platforms to foster unity and effective campaigning, asserting that without such measures, efforts to counteract right-wing influences will remain fragmented and less impactful.

Notable Quote:

"I think it's been so much part of our culture that we are too accepting of everybody... We're just not there."
— Z Cohen Sanchez [38:17]

Sanchez remains optimistic, believing that with continued efforts and strategic leadership, the left can overcome internal fractures and build the necessary electoral power to challenge opposing forces effectively.

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7. Conclusion

Mike Pesca wraps up the episode by acknowledging the complexities of political organizing within the current polarized environment. He teases upcoming exclusive content for Pesca Plus subscribers, hinting at further insights into the Unfuck America Tour's trajectory and its impact on political discourse.

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Key Takeaways:

• Climate Change vs. Historical Patterns: While climate change exacerbates flooding incidents, historical data indicates that regions like Flash Flood Alley have long been susceptible to such natural disasters.

• Strategic Counter-Mobilization: Efforts like the Unfuck America Tour aim to directly counteract influential right-wing figures on college campuses by using targeted social media strategies and influencer partnerships.

• Internal Challenges: Movements must navigate internal criticisms and ensure leadership addresses concerns without amplifying dissent.

• Tolerance and Unity: Excessive tolerance within left-leaning movements can hinder unity and effectiveness, suggesting a need for more strategic inclusion and exclusion.

• Electoral Focus: Building and maintaining electoral power is crucial for achieving long-term political objectives and countering opposing forces.

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For listeners seeking a comprehensive understanding of the political maneuvers and internal dynamics shaping contemporary left-leaning movements, this episode of "The Gist" offers valuable insights and critical reflections.

Transcript

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Foreign.

[Mike Pesca]

It's Monday, July 7, 2025, from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca. The tragedy in Texas is prompting necessary questions about warning systems and there are valid issues to be researched into staffing. The New York Times reports that the National Weather Service's San Angelo office, which is the one responsible for Kerr county, was missing a senior hydrologist, a staff forecaster and a meteorologist in char. The Weather Services San Antonio office didn't have a warning coordination Meteorologist. He or she left on April 30, taking an early buyout after some Trump administration light harassment. This is natural. These are questions to ask. We search for why in the face of tragedy and sometimes we come up with answers. But like I said, it is also natural to ask the question. Deadly flooding in this part of the country is also actually quite natural. It's called flash flood Alley. Many, many such disasters have occurred here over the years. So Joaquin Castro, congressman from nearby San Antonio, is not wrong when he answered Dana Bash's question on CNN this way.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

How much do you think the changing climate is part of what we are seeing go on here, not just what we're seeing in the pictures that we're showing on the screen, but even the the flood that you talked about in.

[Mike Pesca]

San Antonio in June? No, I think climate change is obviously a part of it. These floods are happening more often in more parts of the country and really all over the world. However the climate change played a role or a large role explanation is a lot more complicated than that give and take would indicate. Are floods increasing in number and severity? Well, they certainly seem to be. Ones in Europe, definitely, scientists say after the fact, were influenced by climate change. And we do know that warmth, warmth in the atmosphere makes systems more wet and wet systems shed more rainfall and the increase in energy kicks things into overdrive. Yes, yes and yes. And yet absent from the effects of global warming is that it has happened in this exact part of the world before, often and often worse. So I'll read you from Roger Pilkey's blog. According to a contemporary 1846 account, the Guadalupe river would often rise 15ft above its normal stand after these heavy rains, carrying with it in its swift torrent a number of large trees uprooted farther up the hills. Smaller brooks, ordinary temporarily not containing flowing water, became raging torrents which could only be crossed by swimming. That was again in 1846. In 1921 in thrall Texas, they got 40 inches of rain. That event led to 215 dead just eight years earlier, 117 died in floods. You might have heard that in 1987 a flood in this exact area killed 10 campers at a nearby Christian camp. A local meteorologist, Carrie Burgess, talked to Newsweek and said that flooding like this quote doesn't happen often. Large scale ones, quote, have occurred at least four times in the last 50 years. Kerrville actually had a higher crest of 37.4 inches in a July 1987 event where 10 campers were lost downstream. This flood resembles all of those previous events, Burgess noted, although we have a much higher population now compared to 40 or 50 years ago. Climate change, I'll say it again, makes systems wetter. The Houston floods of Hurricane Harvey show that warming likely increased rainfall by 15 to 20%. But that is an estimate that was generated after specific research into the exact event. It also doesn't explain the 80% or at least 80% not affected by climate change that still would have been catastrophic and record setting. And don't listen to me for science, just listen to me for everyone else who is making claims about science. And it's to know this when all the explanations all say climate change, but none of the explanations say the orographic lifting effect or the balconies escarpment, be a little wary. From what I understand, these features of geography and air had a huge effect on what we're seeing in this tragedy in Kerr county. You're not being lied to. Climate change played a role. You're probably given a little bit of a narrative that might be emphasizing a smaller part of the problem than you are led to believe. In any case, one reason the death tolls were higher 100 years ago might not have been that the floods were worse, but it's certainly true that that the systems of forewarning are worse. Human ingenuity has been able to help us tell each other when these tragedies are about to hit. We're getting better and better at pursuing these systems, but of course they come at a cost. And when that cost isn't paid, we find out what the ultimate cost is on the show today. It is an excellent full show interview with a political operative. I hope Z Cohen Sanchez doesn't mind me calling her that. I read a little from her book biography. She is the founder and executive director of Soul Strategy Soul like the sole of a shoe, get out the vote, that sort of thing. Z has worked on several people powered campaigns in the last decade helping flip seats across the country. After Bernie Sanders 2016 campaign, she committed to helping Democratic candidates win seats. Since founding Soul Strategies. Her multifaceted team has worked on hundreds of powerful campaigns nationwide. However, one of those campaigns hit a snag and made some news. The idea was to throw progressive voices into the mall when Charlie Kirk went to campuses to speak. Kirk goes to these campuses, talk to young men who might simply be bored saying who is this guy? And at least Kirk makes a case to vote MAGA and Republican, which Democrats do not. So the idea was hatched. Let's counter program Kirk. Let's call the effort Unfuck America Edgy. The idea was since Charlie Kirk is talking to fratty type guys, let's get some prominent, maybe larger bicep than the typical political science major and let's have them go out to talk to guys from a left wing perspective. Well, here's the deal. If you're a left leaning political effort and you lead with white guys, you might have a meltdown within and Unfuck soon proved itself fucked. But now they're back to re unfucking. Yes, let's call it that. The whole effort is engaging in a big reun fucking and Z Cohen Sanchez is right at the heart of it. She was generous enough to discuss this all in detail. Zico and Sanchez, up next. Are you buried under nonstop meetings and something important happens and you forgot. Wait, what was discussed? Fireflies is your AI teammate. Boom. Pops up, is on top of things so damn useful you don't even have to prod it. You don't have to feed it coffee to wake it up. We're all trying to figure out how to work smarter and not harder. And this is where Fireflies come in. Just say hey Fireflies. Boom, it's there. Like I say, boom, it's there. Hey Fireflies. Maybe if you're in a meeting while listening to the show now and I just said, hey Fireflies. You got Firefly. It's good. You'll be better off for it. Fireflies are the number one AI teammate that transcribe, summarizes and analyze your conversations so you get the most out of every meeting. It's a smarter way to work, as I said. And it seamlessly integrates with the tools you already rely on. It has integrations across more than 60 apps. Apps like Zoom, Google, Meet Slack, Asana, Zapier and your CRM. You know some of the things that provides are real time and up to date web search. Shareable sound bites. I like that. Timestamp notes that allow you to pinpoint key moments that is important in bookmarks. What are you waiting for? Join the over 500,000 companies already using Fireflies. Hey, Fireflies. And right now when you sign up for a yearly Fireflies subscription, you get your first two months free. Just go to Fireflies AI slash the gist. That's right, two months free when you go to Fireflies AI slash the gist. That's Fireflies AI slash the gist. Foreign Z Cohen Sanchez is a Bernie Sanders veteran who wants to stop Donald Trump. Okay, too late. But what do you do? Maybe you look at Donald Trump acolytes like the young male influencers who draw big crowds on college campuses and you counter program that. That's the idea. Anyway, she has a pack of called National Ground Game and they had an idea to do this with Charlie Kirk and others and so they did and it was successful. And then stuff happened in the way and we're going to talk about it all and we're going to talk about what her what the efforts that she's organized un Fuck America, what they're doing. Hello, Z. Can I call you Z please?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yes, thanks for having me.

[Mike Pesca]

So am I getting. I mean I condensed it, but is everything I said correct so far?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yes, 100%.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so what was the. Well, first of all, a little bit bit about the pac. It's a new PAC because it was founded after some success you had with running campaigns that didn't win but got kind of close to winning in pretty red Florida districts.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we started the PAC in February and we started the Florida special elections. Everybody told us don't invest in those areas, doesn't make sense. But lucky for us with honestly, I mean, I wouldn't say very little effort, but I mean little effort comparatively to what we should be doing. We were able to register a thousand voters and flip a scam county blue for the first time in 30 plus years. And we pushed both of those districts 15 points to the left and 16 points to the left respectively. So you know, they didn't win, but right. You know, a pretty, pretty good run I'd say.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So Randy Fine is still in office and Escambia county is not all of Florida's sixth. But the point is given the atmosphere, maybe given the skill of Z Cohen Sanchez, there is movement to be made and let us look at who gets a lot of Republican votes. Disturbingly so, because that usually isn't the case. It's young men. Charlie Kirk goes on campus, gives these tours, these rallies. Thousands of young men respond to what he's doing. So the idea is what.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

So that's, that was really the idea was that when we, we, we've known that Charlie Kirk's been doing this for a long time. So Charlie started this, you know, escapade, the Turning Point USA in 2000 and around 2009, 2010. But the college campus tours, as far back as we can tell is probably around like 2013, 2015. So it's been going on for about a decade. And you know, he's really ramped up over the years to the point where in 2024 he visited over 300 college campuses. So he was at a new college campus almost every day in an on year election and the Democratic party was not there. We don't have our own college campus tour.

[Mike Pesca]

And Charlie, by the way, college Democrats aren't anything. I, even with all of this, I thought Democrats were still more potent on college campuses than Republicans were.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

No, we don't, we don't have a college campus tour. And Charlie's actually not the only one even doing it. I mean like Myron Gaines has got his own college campus tour. There are, you know, Ben Shapiro has visited college campuses. But we don't have any kind of structured college campus tour. We never have.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, okay, so you said let's not just program a college campus tour, let's counter program. You're an organizer. Charlie Kirk does that. But he's really an influencer. You need an influencer or two to go up against Carl. Charlie Kirk. Who do you get? Who do you recruit?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

So we got Dean Withers and Parker. Get a job. Who are.

[Mike Pesca]

Get a job.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, which I guess he's gotten a job now. So I don't know.

[Mike Pesca]

He's got a job of 1.3 million TikTok followers and Dean Withers has twice that. So these are people I hadn't heard of, but I'm not a 22 year old dude who looks for Debate Me bros on the Jubilee app. So they're big deals, right? Yeah, yeah, they're big deals. And so, yeah. What do you do with them?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, so we basically reach out to them and we figured that, you know, we needed somebody because I mean, the good thing about Charlie Kirk is yes, he's an influencer, but he's also in his mid-30s. He's also a dad. He's also not very good looking. He's also not very charming. Right. Like he's not a gym bro. He's not like any of those things. So who could we get that?

[Mike Pesca]

He's not unhandsome. But yeah, he's not 24 years old. Like, if you see Dean Withers, if people go on TikTok his shot, his whatever his icon is, him doing the tricep flex. I think he's let some of his lat pull down game go since then. But this is the point. He's like somewhat Jim bro.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Exactly. Yeah. And that's, that's really what we were looking for. We were looking for somebody that was much cooler than Charlie Kirk that could be a good messenger for the Democratic Party party. And to, that's, that's where we, we didn't have a lot of choices, if I'm being honest with you. I mean there's not, if you go on tick tock, you go on these, you know, apps, there's really not a lot of people on the left that are doing this in a way that's quote unquote cool. Right. Like the right wing are doing so.

[Mike Pesca]

So 20 year old guy who goes to college would think is cool.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

Someone who could be scraped off the Charlie Kirk train maybe.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, exactly. Because what I think is cool, like I'm in my mid-30s, I'm a woman. Right. Like, so what I think is cool is not going to be what these.

[Mike Pesca]

Democr Democratic Party exists for you, they program for you. It's almost as if your insight, you might be a good organizer and fundraiser and veteran of politics, but you have to not trust your instinct. If you say to yourself, ooh, this is really speaking to me. You then have to say, wait a second. Yeah, it's not me who we need to speak to.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Exactly, exactly. And that was, that was the biggest challenge because the people that I think are cool, like, you know, Ezra Klein and people like that are not gonna be who, you know, a young 20 something thinks is cool. So that's, you know, picked pick them based off of that. And I mean the response was really good. You know, I mean we went mega viral, which was the point. That's really what we wanted to do. We wanted to go mega viral so that we could raise the money so that we could start up a voter registration program which we were able to do. But then we got to keep the tour going. And that's, that's so you had with.

[Mike Pesca]

These guys, with Parker get a job and with Dean, they, they go to one event, right? One in person event in Texas.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah. Texas A and M. How.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And how's that going? College Station.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah. So I mean, listen, we didn't even realize this, but Texas A and M is massive. I mean they're the biggest school in the country. 75,000 registered students. And when we got there, I mean, it was just. It's such a beast, right? And Charlie's got this huge crowd, and we were actually able to draw a crowd that was very comparable to Charlie's over the course of the day. And so that was also really big for us was that we were worried about the fact that we're in, you know, red Texas at a. At a red school. And yet we still had a lot of interest going so that we completed that one event. And it wasn't just Parker and Dean. We also brought 30 other influencers with them in the hopes that they would, you know, propel that content and keep that content relevant for that day. And if everybody was posting at the same time and the same kind of content, it would have more chance to go viral, which definitely worked.

[Mike Pesca]

And all these people are paid.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

No, no, no, no. They all did it for free. Except for Parker and Dean. We paid Parker and Dean.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so they do it for free, maybe to get likes and clicks and be part of this. And because it's where their ideology aligns for all the reasons that people do it, this is what you do as an organizer. You get them down there to do it. So at this point, by late April, do things seem to be going pretty well with Unfuck America or is there behind the scenes drama going on?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Oh, no, everything was great. Like, everybody was excited. I mean, at the end of the, you know, we were there for one day, which was April 22. Everybody stayed overnight that, that night. Everybody was super excited about the results. What had happened? I think at that point, even Dean had already gone like, mega viral. I think his video had already hit like 20 to 25 million views.

[Mike Pesca]

Just on 25 million?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, I think it's sitting now at 33 million. And I think.

[Mike Pesca]

What is 25 million views? What does that translate into anything tangible? I don't know. Maybe there's a rule of thumb with votes. Money. What does that mean?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Well, for us, the strategy was that we wanted to go. We basically want to just replicate what Charlie's doing, which is really smart. I mean, I'll give Charlie credit for that, is that he's a very good organizer. He. He knows what he's doing. And what Charlie does is that he takes these clips, he gets them to go viral, he raises the money off of that content, and then he funnels that into voter registration and the other programs that he has, like sas, which is the Student Action Summit, the Women's Leadership Summit, all of that to sort of keep his momentum Going and Charlie, actually they were in Florida as well. Turning Point USA registered, I think 1500 people and we registered a thousand with no infrastructure at all. Like we, we were just, you know, nothing, no staff, just, you know, get out, got out there and registered.

[Mike Pesca]

So if I talk to you on April 23rd, Z had to go. You'd be walking on air, you'd be saying this, this went great.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

How did, how did unfuck America then get fucked.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

So it wasn't until, I want to say three, maybe three to four days later, I think that there were a lot of influencers that realized the magnitude to which this had happened. Right. Like, I think that they realized that there was a lot of money involved in this, that there was a lot of opportunity involved in this. And I think that there was this counter movement of people that by the way, had already started their stuff much before the tour had even, you know, launched.

[Mike Pesca]

So leftists online started grousing a bit little.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

They started saying things like, why are two white guys forefronting this movement?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Exactly.

[Mike Pesca]

A common complaint. And was your, were you, was your name getting bandied about? Did you become a source of criticism even before?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, they were talking about, you know, how I hadn't, didn't have the experience to run this. That, you know, I, I mean, they said a lot of things. They, you know, we're making fun of our staff. They were saying that, you know, our staff don't know what they're doing and you know, I mean, as an organizer, we get that type of criticism all the time and we usually just move on from it. You know, it's like people, yeah, they have things to say and we just move on. But unfortunately we couldn't because of how the influencers, particularly Dean, more so than anybody else, had used that to. I don't know. I really don't know why he did what he did, but I guess like protect his image. Protect or.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, so to fill people in, there's this like call in session or. And I mean that in two ways. There's this, there's a newfangled speak call outs, call in. But there was also a. I forget what format it was on. Was a twitch. Was it zoom Some. There was some. Yeah, there you go. There was some huge confab and people were complaining about Dean being white and Parker being white and you being white and saying that you microaggressed and you took advantage of people who are working behind the scenes. But as you even said there, it's many Many volunteers. So that there were many people volunteering. And at some point these claims of microaggression were getting you called a. I have the quote here, a thin lipped, flat ass bitch. So you go, I'm looking at you, the lips seem fine. You go and try to engage with this group of people who are critics and dissatisfied. Was that a mistake?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yes, it was definitely a mistake because I did not know this at the time, but I had been told after the fact that these people were long term, long time agitators. Like these people had a long history with Dean and Parker. I guess that went back as far as like them being on Jubilee. I think one of the girls, the main girl who sort of started this whole thing had, I, I guess was maybe jealous of Dean. I'm not sure what the right word is, but I get there. There was some, some beef there, right?

[Mike Pesca]

There's some resentment, right?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, some, definitely, definitely some resentment. Maybe some of it was called for. I, I don't know. I really don't know the history of it. I mean, but whatever that was, I guess was their anger towards the Unfuck America tour. So they didn't know who I was. I, I think I was sort of just a. I was just, I don't know, I was just sort of like part of it. I, I got sort of, you know, brought into the, the folds of the previous drama that had happened.

[Mike Pesca]

You were a vessel for their discontent.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yes, yes.

[Mike Pesca]

And then, and then it shows up by claims of racism, microaggression, talking over black people. That was during the event where everyone was complaining about you. So a second ago I asked, was it a mistake to engage? Would you say it was a mistake to engage at all or how you engage, what your counter arguments, such as they were, how they took form.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Oh no, it was a mistake to engage at all. Because I mean, the, what I didn't realize at the time or what I now realize is that it didn't matter what I had said in that moment, right? Like they were all. It was not going to end well regardless, so I shouldn't have engaged at all. I don't in saying that. I don't think that. I think that this would have happened if not with me, with somebody else on the tour. Because they had already made it very clear that they were going. I mean, she had actually said it, that she's going to destroy this from within. If, if we, if she can't destroy it from outside, she's going to destroy it from within. Right.

[Mike Pesca]

So I think on the Theory that two white men to hetero CIS white men should not be the face of democratic or a left leaning movement, full stop.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Exactly. Yeah. Which, which you can't avoid, you know, obviously.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, you had a counter argument that maybe a fair minded person could hear and reject. And so I think, you know, my assessment is you thought you had such a good argument that perhaps a person who very much wants to beat back the forces of Trump, maybe such a person, even if it wasn't the main agitator, would hear this argument and say, oh yeah, that's a good point. And this argument was what about the CIS white men being the main people involved in Unfuck America?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Well, the main argument was that we chose them very like strategically because we're going after young white men.

[Mike Pesca]

I mean, everything we're saying in the beginning. Right?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, they're definitely the biggest issue. Now young men as in general are an issue. Obviously. We, we can't deny that black men also skewed towards Trump way more than they have in the past. Hispanic men.

[Mike Pesca]

That's a big one.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah, they have. But we also, we wanted to focus first on what we could focus on. Right. Which was that if Charlie is the counter that we're going up against and he's white and he uses race as bait, that we would then use young white men as well to sort of counter that. Not to say that we would do that forever. That that was like, you know, the plan that we would always stick to. But at least in the beginning, like that's what we wanted to, to try.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, that seems to me like a good argument. Then again, I'm a CIS white man. But probably also the argument was never going to land with someone who didn't want to hear the argument. We don't even have to get into the motivations of the main critic. But a second ago, a minute ago in this conversation, you put your finger on, you don't know why not Parker, why Dean engaged. That seems to be in your assessment, and I agree where it all went wrong, that he gave credence to the complaint, he elevated the complaint, and essentially that complaint became his complaint. But I don't, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is that what happened?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

That's exactly, yeah, that's exactly what happened. Because I honestly, I truly believe from the bottom of my heart that if we had all not engaged and we just all kept going, that this would not even be anything, that it would just be complainers online that we get with every movement everywhere. I mean, look what happened to Bernie Sanders. Right. Like, very, very similar situation.

[Mike Pesca]

This is what I was going to say. Like, what's the playbook? You tell me, as a decade long operative in the field with a lot of experience in this exact phenomenon, what do you do? What's the playbook for something like this?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

The playbook is really to ignore it. Because if you, if you don't ignore it, then you continue to feed into it and you give it credence, then it just, you never get anywhere. You can never build any movement, you know, and that's, that's a big part. I, what I respected about Bernie's campaign was that they listened to the complaints and then they moved on, you know, and, and everybody sort of agreed that we have a bigger, we have a bigger fight to fight, which is winning this primary, which is winning this election, which is beating Republicans, and, and then that's it. Right. Like that. That is what it is. Unfortunately, with the way that things have gone, especially on TikTok, I don't see this on other platforms. I don't see it on YouTube, I don't see it on Facebook, Instagram, none of that. But at least on TikTok, there's this sort of new, like, if I'm not completely pure, then I'm a bad person and I don't deserve a platform. And that to me is completely the opposite direction. Especially when Trump uses that type of rhetoric to make fun of the Democratic Party and to make fun of operatives on the Democratic side.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. So I found some YouTube videos where the exact complaints were being made against you that we're talking about someone named Park Rose, Permaculture. At least that was the name of the video. And she has like 300,000 subscribers. But on TikTok, the equivalent person will have 3 million subscribers. Complaints get elevated. But the question is, you can't just say it's only a Tik Tok phenomenon. The phenomenon of TikTok is the very battleground that you're engaging in, right? It is. Charlie Kirk's a TikTok phenomenon. Parker and Dean were chosen because they're TikTok phenomena. So what do you do?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

That's, that's the struggle. And I think what we have to do is, well, one, we have to keep going. That's, that's very important. And two, I think that we also have to change the culture a little bit because we're not going to win elections like this. I mean, that is my biggest fear with all of this, isn't me personally. I don't Care, like, who calls me whatever they want to call me, right? Because I'm not an influencer. So to me, it's like, whatever. I'm not losing anything. But what I do care about is how Charlie uses this to get votes, right? And like young men, right, they don't want to be called a racist. They don't want to be called a sexist. They don't. They'd rather stick with somebody like Charlie Kirk, who they think is safe, than to come to our side and risk that, right?

[Mike Pesca]

And so I think at this point in the interview, when I play it, we're going to play what Charlie Kirk said about this. And the lesson, this period of the lesson of the UN Fuck America tour was just to give him fodder.

[C]

Group of trolls, this circus act, the UN F America guys, they really need to sit in the sun more. That's a whole separate issue. And they were there to try to disrupt Turning Point. They had, like five people at their event. We had 5,000 standing room. Only sold out the event in the evening. Thousands of people during the day. Anyway, so they had this whole thing, oh, we're gonna fight turning pointless.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

A.

[C]

And I laughed. I was like, okay. Do you guys have any idea how hard this actually build something? First of all, it's hard to build something. Second of all, it's super hard to build anything when you guys are super prideful and just spend all day on social media. Of which, when we built Turning Point, we didn't have any of this nonsense. We had, like, a little bit of Twitter, Instagram, whatever, But, like, we were too busy actually building stuff, not talking about ourselves all day long. And then third, you can't build anything with woke. And so it's happened. Is unbelievable.

[Mike Pesca]

He just says, see? See how crazy these people are? This is why the woke will never win. This is what we're up against. It puts a lot of wind in his sails, I would think.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Well, and I mean, but he also has a good point, you know, I mean, like, it's. I hate to say it because, like, I'm the one fighting against Charlie, but I mean, he has a point in that. On the right, they are always looking to win elections. Like, that is the goal, right? The goal is we all band together and even if we don't agree on everything 100%, we fix it behind closed doors and we move on. Because ultimately, the goal is to win elections. And on the left, that doesn't seem to be the goal. The goal seems to be, and I think destiny put this in The. In the best way that I've heard. But it's almost as if they have.

[Mike Pesca]

This, like, the Twitch streamer who. You went on. You talked to him about this huge audience.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, he said basically that the left, their goal is to be part of this, like, social club. Right. Like this, like. Yeah, that doesn't really, like, exist, but. And doesn't build any type of political power and is not there to build electoral power. And so unless we can shift our mindset to become more like the right, and not obviously, not in an ideological way, but in a way that they understand that winning elections should be the central issue and the central message always, and we're just not there.

[Mike Pesca]

All right, well, how do we shift that mindset? We will discuss up next, more of Z. Cohen Sanchez. We're back with Z. Cohen Sanchez talking about the Unfuck America Project. And the last point in our discussion was about how the left is just in general, more suspicious of power, more uncomfortable with power. They don't reach for the levers of power that are electoral levels of power. The left, I think Z would agree with me, sees their mission as perhaps more exalted than all of that. And this gets in the way when what you're trying to do is actually win some House and Senate seats.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah. And the real question then becomes. Is like, okay, well, if you're. If the goal is to not build electoral power, then what is the goal? And yes, you know, and I don't think that they have an answer for that.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, some. Some of them do. You know, they're involved in movements. Many of them are involved in movements that transcend national boundaries. Right. Where they're involved in movements of intellectual movements that are more philosophical than the dirty work of actually casting votes and meeting with constituents. Not everyone. Right. Saul Alinsky wasn't, but probably Foucault was, for instance.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

And it's not as if the right doesn't have these people who look at politics as somewhat dirty, but I just think there are fewer of them. And I even think the ones who are driven, say, by religious fervor. See, and many people in the religious right, it used to be not like this, they were not as political, but then they saw the usefulness of political power in a way that maybe some people. I would even say, Bernie, people. People in the dsa, it might be hard for them to see the usefulness of political power, since I would say they haven't gotten. Maybe you haven't gotten as much of your wish list as people in the religious right have from politics per se, Would you say that's fair?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

I think that it's somewhat fair, but really like our goal, my goal at least personally, is to get us as a Democratic party and as a, as the leftist group of people to a point where we are in this to build electoral power. Because I think that that's the only way that we get rid of Maga is that we do that at the local level, we do it at the state level. And if, if we're not all on the same page about that, then I think we're going to. I think we're going to fail, you know, and that that's the biggest issue and there can be space for other people. I mean, that's not to say like, you know, if you want to go protest and you don't want to participate in electoral organizing, that's what, fine, right. Like there's a place for that. Same thing with intellectuals. If you want to be an intellectual, you want to do book clubs on Saturdays and you're cool with that, great. But what we have to get away from is trying to destroy people that are doing the electoral piece.

[Mike Pesca]

Would you say there. So we have two parties where a two party system, that means both have to be big tents. That means both have to accommodate ideologies they don't like. And so I'm saying this all to lay the groundwork that of course the right has fractures in it, but I would say that the left is much more fractured than the right. And I would further say. Well, I want to ask you, do you think that there's a decent case to be made from your experience that the left or Democrats are, if not exactly hopelessly fractured, close to hopelessly fractured, given by what we've seen.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

I want to say that that's the truth, but in my, like, heart, I don't want to. Because if, if I say that, feel like there's. I think that there's hope here. I think that we can take these lessons and we can learn from them and we can move on. But I don't think that we can do that unless we have people with big platforms like Dean, like Parker, like all of these folks that, that stand up against that and say, hey, my goal is to beat Trump and to beat Mago, and if you're going to destroy that, I'm not on your team. You're not part of our 10, right?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

And I don't think that we're there yet. And I don't know if it's because of like, part of me has thought that maybe it's just because they're young and they don't understand the risk of Trump. I think that that's probably the most likely because I don't think that they're bad guys. I don't think that Dean is like this nefarious, like, horrifying person. I don't think that at all. I just think that they don't have great triceps.

[Mike Pesca]

You don't get to be nefarious skull crushers. Right, this is what I want to ask you, that the right wouldn't say they're hopelessly fractured. Just look at the evidence. Someone on the left such as you has to combat that feeling, that inclination to say it. Is it just the evidence of recent or even past experience that makes you say that? Is there something else? If I was interviewing the equivalent, if I was interviewing Charlie Kirk, he would say, this is the situation. The right has some problems, but we could more or less get our shit together. And the left just shows that it can't. Is there something inherent about, I don't know, the mindset of the left or what the left holds as ideals or something? This is my question. So something fundamentally baked into the DNA of the left that makes this situation what it is.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

I don't think it's something baked in. I think that it can be fixed. I think it's just. It's been so much part of our culture that we are too accepting of everybody. And that might sound wrong, right? In the, in the sense of like, like, oh, well, why aren't you accepting of everybody? But also at the same time, like, we have to understand that if there are people that are here to destroy what we're trying to build, they're not on our team. And I don't think that we're quite there yet in terms of saying, hey, you're not part of us. Like the right would do. I mean, the right would say, like, if somebody like, you know, this, this person that started all this drama, if they were in right leaning spaces, they would be ousted within seconds. I mean, they wouldn't even get like a seat at the table. And we're just like, not. We're just not there.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. So this, this is not something that you and I have first thought of. Karl Popper wasn't the first person to think of it, but it's the tolerance paradox, the irony of unacceptable tolerance for intolerance. And somehow the right gets it. They probably have never heard of the name Karl Popper. I don't know if Charlie Kirk has, but the left doesn't. And I don't know if it's how they've been taught. I don't know if it's. They haven't seen the actual tangible results of grappling with it, but it's not getting there. And if you have so much tolerance that you'll allow intolerant people amongst your number to, to blow up the whole movement, you're never going to get anywhere. It's interesting. I don't know what the answer.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Yeah, I think the only answer is, is that we have to be very, very strong in not accepting people that continually do this. And.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah, but then there's the other racial thing, which is it's very hard for within the left. It's very hard to not accept when say a black woman is critiquing a white woman. I, I think you identify as white, I'm assuming same way.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

So that becomes it. You know, it's, it's, it's as if that, that's a magic bullet. There's no proper rebuttal for it. The immunities over time have not built up. That is a particular vulnerability, I do think, of the left that played itself out in this situation.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

It definitely did. I think it's definitely part of it. But also keep in mind that there are definitely white people that are, are very destructive to these. Parkour's permanent culture is a perfect example. I mean this is a white woman from Portland, extremely privileged, right. And like, wants to again, this like idea of destroying movements, you know, and so they, because they're not pure enough, like. And this is sort of the central thing of like, it's never going to be pure enough for this group of people. So yeah, I definitely think that they're part of that is, you know, you're going to have black women that you're going to have to sort of say, hey, if you're part of this, like destroyer of movements, then you cannot be part of it. But I don't, I really truly don't believe that that is even the majority of black women. In fact, I would venture to say it's actually a lot of people that look like Park Rose Permaculture that are white women privileged from places like Portland, Oregon.

[Mike Pesca]

But within that space, the only way to have even a scintilla of hope to bring rebought. The argument of some of your main critics was for someone who doesn't look like you to do it. And you know, that's hard. That's onerous that's what I can't even say my own points of view. I have to filter it through someone who agrees with me or get allies to stand up. Yeah, it's never. It's time is a movement. I also want to ask you this. So you said you don't blame. You don't blame Dean. He's a young guy who obviously is doing well in the influencer space. But you do think he made not just an ethical mistake, but I sense that you think he made a tactical mistake by agreeing with the critics rather than rebutting or ignoring the critics. Am I right about that?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think this is a decision that he regrets, if I'm being honest. You know, I mean, I've seen evidence that he regrets this decision. And unfortunately, I think now he's going to be sort of put into this category where people aren't going to want to work with him electorally, which is a shame, because I think, like, when you have people that have these kinds of platforms that build these platforms off of debate against Trump and you can't use it to then build electoral power, then my question sort of becomes like, why are you doing it at all? Are you just doing this for entertainment purposes? If you are, fine. But I mean, I have a lot more respect for people that are doing this for electoral purposes, like people like Destiny, you know, and other, you know, David Pakman and people like that.

[Mike Pesca]

The one thing that confuses me is I thought a lot of this action in the playbook seems all pre vibe shift, if you know what that means. And it's inexact. But it seems like four years ago there was advice. Try to grovel and apologize and maybe you'll find yourself in good stead with movements that, you know, might well tear your throat out. And within the last year, year and a half, I thought it became more conventional wisdom and correct conventional wisdom that you're not going to apologize your way to success. So Dean is a younger person than I am and more attuned to what the vibe is. How come he didn't. How come he didn't get that?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

You know, I think this whole, like, apology. Well, I mean, I sort of. I have a lot of opinions about this, like, I call it the apology tour, the unfung apology tour, because I think that's really what it is. And the, the funny thing is, is that those agitators did not accept the apology. Shocking. I know.

[Mike Pesca]

They never do.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

They never do. And so, but. And yet they are still able to move on with Their entire reputation intact. And I think a part of that, I mean, there's definitely, I think definitely a sexism element to it, if I'm being honest. Like I, I saw the women of the tour come out a lot more harmed than people like Parker and Dean did with, you know, obviously with smaller audiences and all of that. But yeah, I, I don't, again, I don't think that this is a decision that, yes, in the moment it might have felt like, okay, well let me apologize and if they don't accept it, then at least my audience does and we can, you know, somewhat move on from this and, and you know, whatever. But I don't think that this is a long term solution because what ends up happening is that, okay, now anytime that you, even slightly, even if you don't fudge up, right, like, even if it's like just a whatever in the moment, you are then consistently having to apologize for every single thing that you're doing and it makes you look weak, in my opinion.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah. Especially what we're talking about is appealing to young men who very much don't.

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

Want to hate that. Yeah, that one.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. One other question and then I want to get to where Unfuck is. Now you say that this is still the. The ethos of Tik Tok is very much still about this claims of harm and call out culture and purity tests, whereas the other platforms have moved on. Do you have any theories why? I have two theories, but I don't know if they're true. One is, you know, Maybe it's like TikTok's algorithms are controlled by the Chinese and maybe they just want to put us at each other's throats. Then again, X's algorithms are controlled by Elon Musk. Maybe he just depresses the call out culture instincts. I don't know. Why do you think some. And there might be some inherent aspects to the shorter form versions of TikTok, but why do you think Tick Tock is still kind of stuck in the morass of purity politics circa 2020?

[Z Cohen Sanchez]

I honestly just think it's because it's full of a lot of younger people that that's my theory because I don't see this sort of energy in places like Instagram that more appeal to older.

[Mike Pesca]

Great conversation. I hope you are finding. And we have more of it for Pesca plus members. We'll get into what's it like when your goal in life, temporary goal in life, is to complicate the life of Charlie Kirk and then he does a victory dance because of own goals on your side. And we'll talk about what the gamer and Twitch streamer Destiny is going to do just next weekend when he confronts Charlie Kirk. That is for Peska plus subscribers where at subscribe.mikepeska.com there is a level that you can subscribe with no ads. There is a level you could get bonus content and it really is the best way to Support the show. Subscribe.MikePeska.com that's it for today's show. Corey Warr is the producer of the Gist. Astra Green runs our socials. Kathleen Sykes she runs the Gist list. I about talk talk more about the flooding and hundred year and 500 year rainfall and floodplains. Kathleen and I do on today's Gist list. Ashley Kahn is the production coordinator. Michelle Pesque is all of that and more. She's in charge of unfucking the Gist improve. Thanks for listening.

[C]

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