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- [00:00]
Mike Pesca
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- [00:22]
Jeff
Morning Zoe. Got donuts.
- [00:23]
Dana
Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?
- [00:27]
Jeff
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you teach me.
- [00:32]
Dana
So Dana oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
- [00:45]
Jeff
Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [00:53]
Mike Pesca
Nice.
- [00:53]
Dana
Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [00:54]
Jeff
T Mobile is the best place to.
- [00:56]
T-Mobile Announcer
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- [00:58]
Jeff
Us with eligible trade in in any condition. So what are we having for launch?
- [01:03]
Ad Voice
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- [01:04]
Dana
My work here is done.
- [01:05]
T-Mobile Announcer
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- [01:25]
Mike Pesca
It's Tuesday, November 4, 2025 from Peach Fish Productions, it's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca and this is my least favorite news day. It's. It's one of my favorite news nights, election nights, when we get the results and we know what happened during the day. But during the day, all reporters can do is go to the polls and talk about a closely fought election, even if it's not closely fought, and interview people coming out of the polls and some say they're going to vote for this guy and some say they're going to vote for the other guy. And then you see the candidate actually going to the polls, getting out of usually a black Chevy Suburban, holding a cup of coffee, waving to the cameras coming back.
- [01:59]
Jeff
Who'd you vote for?
- [02:00]
Marketing Voice
Ha.
- [02:01]
Mike Pesca
I'm not saying. Terrible. Hate it all. So what I did was I caught up on some news that I had missed or at least I hadn't brought to you. Don't worry, you could rest assured that I watch everything as soon as it comes Out. And I'm Talking about the 60 Minutes interview with President Donald J. Trump. There were a lot of untruths, misstatements in the interview. I do have to say, I don't want to bend over backwards too much to this guy who has based a presidency on untruths and misstatements. But he says what he wants to say usually. And I have gotten into a debate with friends of mine, like Michael A. Cohen, about Joe Biden's mental decline versus Donald Trump's. And they'll play things that Trump says. And yeah, he often says things that are not just outrageous, but like, what is he talking about? He's mumbly mouthed and he's not saying the right words. This was not that he talked faster and looser, but also, I got to say, more coherently than most of Joe Biden's last later. Not that it matters. Right. Joe Biden did not deny the results of the 2020 election. So I honed in. There were a bunch of things that were not true. CNN does the thing that CNN does where they count the 13 or 33 or however many untrue things he said. But I was looking at one particular area. Donald Trump has been saying that he deserves the Nobel Peace Prize. Fine. Azerbaijan also agrees. Right. Because he settled and sometimes he says seven and sometimes he says eight wars or world conflicts. So he gave a list and some we knew to be on the list. One was Israel and Hamas. And you'll hear all of the others.
- [03:38]
Jeff
Cambodia, Thailand, Kosovo, Serbia, Congo, the Congo and Rwanda, Pakistan and India. That was going to be a beauty. They shot down seven planes. Israel and Iran. You've heard about that one. Egypt and Ethiopia, that's another beauty. Ethiopia built a big dam where there's no water going to the Nile. Armenia and Azerbaijan, and if you take a look, Israel and Hamas, which is a, you know, rough little situation.
- [04:07]
Mike Pesca
Ah, very interesting. So we got Serbia and Kosovo.
- [04:11]
Ad Voice
What?
- [04:12]
Mike Pesca
Those two countries are not at peace per se. There was a failed insurrection and incursion in 2023. And yet at the same time, they have agreed to normalize relationship. So great, Donald Trump does get credit. Except that agreement dates to April 2023. Agreement on normalizing relations between Serbia, Kosovo historic milestone Delegate tells Security Council 2023 Joe Biden was President Trump is apparently claiming credit for a trade agreement that was signed between the two countries at the White House in September. So one of the last months of of his administration in 2020. That's a peace deal. That's not a peace deal. But even worse, Was that one about the Congo? Just the most war torn country in the last 25 years, the site of the most deaths. And you could argue things are getting better only because things have been so bad there for so long. So we have talked several times on the show about M23, these insurgents coming across from, from Rwanda, taking over whole towns, killing at least 100 people at a pop. There is no peace in Congo. There is no peace between Rwanda and Congo. It's a big lift. And whatever the president can do, which is not that much, but whatever he could do, he should get credit for, but he certainly did not solve a war. If so, tell it to the dead bodies strewn in the streets of Goma and Bakavu. Yes, President Trump brought leaders of Rwanda and Congo to the White House in June. And then over 100, probably a lot more were killed in July. It's good to try. It's bad to lie. On the show today, I talk about the passing of Dick Cheney. A, I use the word storied, definitely well traveled, government employee, vice president. You knew that. But also, and this will not be in the spiel, I'm just sharing it with you now. I think he might be one of, if not the last of the great Dicks. You got Clark. You, of course, before him had Nixon. There might be one other really big Dick to shuffle off the mortal coil. And of course, we know, of course, of the passing of the lesser Dicks, your sergeants, your Yorks. But I'm thinking maybe Van Dyke also out there. Cavett, nowhere near as big as Dick Cheney. I think for cultural influence, Van Dyke might be at 99, the last of the truly huge Dicks who are still with us. Most Dicks are no more. And so we to mark the passing of that famous Dick, Richard Cheney, at the age of 84. And that'll be in the spiel. But first, he's going to be so happy to have contextualized him right there after that little observation. Matthew Heltzik, he is a fixer. He runs Hiltzik Strategies. Yesterday we talked about his rise in New York politics. Today, on the day of a New York election, we talk more about being a crisis communicator. Matthew Hiltzik up. Okay, the weather's getting colder unless you're in Phoenix, but it's still getting colder. And sometimes when you're in a warm city, you're like, look, I might get to wear a sweater. And sometimes when you're in a cold city, there is this phenomenon known as sweater weather and quince has got you covered. Literally $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters. Oh it's such a luxury. That's the Mongolian cashmere. $50. That's what you can afford. And that's the one I love. I have this green quince sweater that is a go to and I am going to go to Quince for additional sweater type coverings. I also should mention that they've gone beyond clothing. They've they have home, bath, kitchen and travel. Some luggage from Quints. Give and get timeless holiday staples that last this season with quince. Go to quince.com the gist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com the Gist Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com the Gist Claude is an AI service that I so love. I use it for writing all the time. It's also excellent for coding and it's improved my professional workflow. I am not going to say that all of the correspondence I get goes through Claude at some point. I mean if you write in, you're going to hear from me, but just as an assist saved me hours, hours and hours and hours. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter. It gives me suggestions I wouldn't have thought of and takes what I did think of and polishes it so that it's what I meant or I can tell myself, yeah, that's what I meant. And the thing that it does artificial intelligence, right? What is intelligence but identifying connections where you didn't see them before? That's what I think. A key definition of intelligence is in my head and when I think of intelligent humans now that we have intelligent machines and that's what Claude does. Claude finds connections between all these sources that I want wouldn't have found on my own, plus all the professional tools through MCP connectors, GitHub and Jira and HubSpot and Notion. If you work with those, you know what I mean. Ready to tackle bigger problems. Sign up for Claude today and get 50% off Claude Pro when you use my link Claude AI the gist. That's Claude AI slash the Jeff gist right now for 50% off your first three months of Claude Pro. That includes access to all the features mentioned in today's episode. Claude AI slash the gist. We're here with Matthew Hiltzik, as we were yesterday. He is the founder and proprietor of Hiltzik Strategies. And we talked about how he came up in the world of politics, learning from some legendary, especially New York politicians. And what was Chuck Schumer? So Chuck Schumer's media strategy in the 90s, in the 2000s, was that he made sure that if you watch the local news, you had to see Chuck Schumer doing a press conference. He'd be at a gas station, he'd be at a supermarket. The price of milk, the price of gas, the price of whatever it was. He really understood that that was how he communicated back then. But cut to 2025. I'm not sure he understands it now. And it's more important than just being a New Yorker. The man is running Democratic strategy on things like the shutdown. So my question to you, Matt, is, is he playing from an old playbook?
- [12:00]
Matthew Hiltzik
Well, I think there's two different parts to what you're saying. I think there's one piece of it, which is that the underlying approach that he was taking with the Sunday press conferences that he would also encourage other Democratic sending candidates and incumbents to use, that still applies. It's finding issues that people actually care about and being able to find a way to be able to look at some maybe dead times where people aren't going to be out there and to embrace an issue. And I think with the ability to target and that precision that I referenced earlier, I still think that the underlying concept works, because if you can understand that there's a bunch of highly motivated people around a certain topic and you can join that conversation and recognize their issues and concerns about it, that stuff still works. I think this sort of standard, you know, Sunday press conference, it still will have some value, but I think that part isn't necessarily the best way to go. And then your point is, I think, spot on, which is that there's also distinctions between what are you looking at locally versus when you're a national figure and being a majority leader and a minority leader in the Senate, as Chuck has been, that how do you, you know, how do you play both of those? And at the same time, you also have to cover your different flags. You have a lot of different interests that you have to serve. So, yeah, I think the playbook has to change. But I think the underlying concept of being aware of what constituencies care about is still, is still valid at this point.
- [13:28]
Mike Pesca
Why do you think that Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries haven't endorsed the Democratic frontrunner? Mam Doni. And do you think that's wise?
- [13:38]
Matthew Hiltzik
I'm grateful that they haven't. I think if you look at. I think they're both being deliberate. I think they both recognize there's a lot of constituencies. I think that they are both very cognizant of and aware of the left flank of the Democratic Party, which they should be as leaders. It's very unusual to have leaders of both houses of government from New York and a president too. But I think that they're very sensible about it. I think that there's ways for them to be supportive. There's also ways for them to play things out. And I think it's smart. I think time will tell whether Governor Hochul's decision to endorse him, where she does not get the cross endorsement from him, whether that works in her favor or not. We'll check back in a year and two weeks about whether that was wise or not. But I think that there's a lot of political playing and I think that there's a lot of acknowledgment that they have bigger issues on the national level that they also have to deal with and that right now focusing on the shutdown and about health care and the other issues that they're raising is something that's a little more important and has a broader implications necessarily than just an endorsement in this race here.
- [14:48]
Mike Pesca
That's true. But if it was Zell nor Myre who got the endorsement of the Democrats the nomination, I am certain that they would. And so they'd have other things to focus on. But you just throw an endorsement at this mainstream, mainstream Democrat. Is part of their calculation that they're worried of the signal of them, however small, as national Democrats endorsing a socialist who might in a couple months do some things that could cause a headache for some Democrat in Iowa. You know, your party is the party that endorsed this guy who did this crazy thing, or do you think there's a lot of consideration of their own local constituencies playing a role?
- [15:29]
Matthew Hiltzik
I think both, yeah.
- [15:30]
Mike Pesca
And what do you think's more or more legitimate?
- [15:34]
Matthew Hiltzik
I think they're both legitimate because one thing that is amazing about Chuck Schumer over the years, that this was a man who would make sure to visit all 62 counties every year. And even as he ascended in the leadership of the Democratic Party, he went to all the counties and he did not forget it. And it became easier for him over time because he was able to, you know, zoom in and obviously with COVID and other things. But, I mean, it was a great story. You got all upset because, you know, when I was with Judith Hope scouting out places before Hillary's listening tour in 1999, I was accidentally ended up on the COVID of the Corning Leader because my boss, Judith, had pointed out that Hillary had called in to talk to her while we were going to visit. I think it was Mayor Sean Hogan in Hornell, N.Y. and people had not been in Steuben county at a state chair level in a long time. And so the Corning Leader thought that was notable. And I had just learned actually in the past year or two for someone who worked with Senator Schumer, that he was apparently pretty unhappy about the fact that he had not gotten the COVID of the Corning Leader. And that became the bane of the existence for staff for the next. The next nine to 12 months to make sure that he could get that above the fold, you know, attention. So I think you should not underestimate the importance of it. And Hakeem Jeffries has certainly been someone who's been, I think, a great leader for a lot of communities in New York and has recognized and navigated things. Very different personality than Chuck, but he's someone who I think has continued to really demonstrate really strong leadership and understanding New York City, I think better than some of our other electeds.
- [17:10]
Mike Pesca
So working for Hillary Clinton, your official title was what, Director of Jewish Outreach?
- [17:15]
Matthew Hiltzik
Yeah, I had worked on the listening tour in my capacity as being press secretary for the state Democratic Party. I probably traveled around. Around, like around 30% of her trips from July through December of 1999. And then I went to work at Miramax. And then the summer 2000, I had a conversation with her about the Jewish community and. And she asked me to take leave to come back and work on that. So I did deal with Howard Wolfson and Karen Phinney and Karen Dunn, who were leading up the media efforts then. And I was able to come back and be a part of things for the last few months of the campaign and part of the transition. So help with media, but to also help specifically with different coordination the Jewish community. I had different ideas about how to reach women, especially more observant Jewish women in both Hasidic communities as well as modern Orthodox and elsewhere, who typically were not engaged. And that was.
- [18:08]
Mike Pesca
So they just wouldn't vote. It's not that they were voting for you.
- [18:10]
Matthew Hiltzik
They voted, but. But they were not targeted. So if you look for an example, we're just finishing the Jewish holiday season. But you have to remember at that point, people forget. Before Hillary Clinton, no woman was ever elected statewide in New York. And so a normal rite of passage would be to go to Brooklyn on the holiday of Sukkot and visit with the rabbis of the different Hasidic sects. But they had separated seating in there, and so the woman would really not engage with the rabbi there. So with the help of some good friends in Brooklyn, I was able to get an audience with the, the, the wife, the Rebbetson of the Bubov community, who she was in the late 70s, amazingly dynamic woman. The. Her husband, the rabbi, was in his 90s and not as fully there as she was. And so she gave us that audience and she ended up hosting Hillary at their home, both of them did at their home, on the Saturday night before the election. But it was a really great opportunity to really acknowledge these tremendously strong, smart, industrious, capable women who weren't always getting the attention that they deserved.
- [19:14]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. And in these communities, when you win the community, you don't just win it, you know, 55, 45, it's usually, you know, 99 to 1. Was there really a chance that Hillary Clinton wouldn't have gotten the vast majority of the vote of Jewish New Yorkers in the year 2000?
- [19:29]
Matthew Hiltzik
I mean, people forget that There was a whole issue which was, I think, significantly exaggerated about an incident with Suh Arafat during a visit that Hillary had in the fall of 2000 that was an official state visit or government visit. And there was a headline in the post about her hugging Su Arafat, and then with a translation of her Arafat's comments that was very negative towards Jews. I actually was speaking to people on the ground in real time and knew that in fact, the translation that was given in real time was not the one that was given after Hillary got on a plane to fly to Oman later. And that's when the, the Palestinian Authority gave a totally different translation that was far more offensive and put Hillary in a challenging situation. And so I think there was a, a perception among a lot of Jewish community, especially the more middle to right, that she was anti Israel, which was never the case. Hillary was always someone who was extremely supportive, as was her and her husband, and both of them continue to be. But I think it was, it was a great education for all of us about the importance of really dealing directly with the community and being able to challenge some of the misperceptions that are there.
- [20:42]
Mike Pesca
Okay. So here's a challenging case, and I take your point that you don't believe in litmus tests. Parties mean many things, and if you favor abortion rights or if you favor some sensible gun control, the Democrats are the party for you. But what about, let's say you're talking to, I don't know, a member of your temple, a friend of you, a Jewish voter, even in a swing state. And they say, my most important and also caveat at it with many, many Jewish voters. This isn't their most important issue. And a not insignificant percentage of Jewish voters are foursquare against what Israel is doing in the war. Or they're anti Zionist. Fine. But you're talking to the kind of Jewish voter who says, I've always stood with the Democrats because they've always stood with Israel and now Democrats are asking, or specific Democrats are asking me for their votes. Jon Ossoff didn't vote to fund giving the weaponry to Israel and Netanyahu that the rest of the Senate did vote to fund. Or I'm just uncomfortable with the position of constantly lecturing Israel on what it's doing. I think that will lead to a worse outcome for the war and I want to draw the line on that. Do you say, I guess there are a few ways you could approach it. You could say there are other considerations to think about. You could say, I can't tell you to go against your conscience. Or maybe you would say something like, well, here's the position that Democrats are in. This is why it's maybe okay for Democrats or a Jon Ossoff type or dozens of others to vote against that one arm shipment. What persuasive tactics would you use?
- [22:17]
Matthew Hiltzik
Well, the good thing is I am no longer the press secretary for the state Democratic Party or for any Democratic Party. So I, I'm just talking about you.
- [22:24]
Mike Pesca
For what you believe.
- [22:25]
Matthew Hiltzik
Yeah.
- [22:25]
Mike Pesca
So probably been, you know, a little cross pressured on some of these issues, too.
- [22:28]
Matthew Hiltzik
Yeah. I mean, I honestly think that these, when you have challenging moments like this, you see people's real stripes and who they are. And I think that there's a lot of people who are incredibly disappointing with the way that they've acted in these cases. When you look at the influence of media, academia and the entertainment world on people's perceptions of things and the fact that in all three of those worlds there has been a lack of backbone, there's been fear of being associated with the wrong side of something that guides too many people and their actions or inactions. When you look at the insanity of People signing a petition or of people wearing like a, a pin with red hands and blood on it that is literally from the killing of two Jews and that is where the red handed pin came from, is literally the blood of Jews on their hands and people have no problem wearing it. I'm not sitting there defending it. I'm not going to sit here. I'm not in a position anymore of having to defend the Democratic Party. I think, you know, I had a problem. I don't vote in Georgia, but, you know, I've spoken with friends and people I work with down there that I, I do have a problem. I don't understand what John Ossoff was doing and do I think that he needs to explain it? He does. And I think that his voters and constituents there are going to hold him accountable. So I'm in a place where I always embraced, you know, I had, you know, I'd worked with people across the aisle and you know, throughout my career I had whole absurdly long profile of me about the fact that I, you know, worked with Glenn beck from around 16 years ago. And I was really proud of it. I'm very proud of the fact that, you know, we worked with people who are conservative commentators. We worked with universities that are on the left, that are on the right. I feel like I have a much better sense of what the realities are with people in red and blue states than other people do if you're just burying your head in the sand. And I think that in the same way that, you know, one of the biggest problems the Democratic Party has is something with the black community and the Latino community and just presuming that there's going to be this loyalty, this blind loyalty over time and not adjusting to the realities of what these communities needs are and values are and priorities are. And I think that it's exactly the same for the Jewish community. And I think any party that does not pay attention to those things is going to be in danger of losing those constituencies.
- [24:47]
Mike Pesca
As far as Trump, there is a sentiment that what he does is he dominates the ether. And as long as he's getting any attention, some analysts will tell you it works for him. He could use it to distract from other items. I kind of wonder about that sometimes. I suspect when I ask you about that idea or the idea that all PR is good pr, it's like that seen in Mad Men when one character says, well, what about sex sells? And then Don Draper goes nuts and says, we are professionals. That is what unprofessionals say about our industry. But what about this idea that Donald Trump is a little sui generous and if he's getting any attention for anything, including bad attention, it accrues to his benefit. Do you buy that now?
- [25:39]
Matthew Hiltzik
I think. I don't believe that all press is good press. I think in certain situations it could be helpful. I think that what he's done in Israel and for the hostages and for being able to challenge the orthodoxies in the region, I think he deserves a ton of credit for it. It's only because of him. And, and do I think that Joe Biden really cared? I do. Joe Biden was the last president we may hear. Call himself a Zionist, which is sort of a sad thing in its own way. But Donald Trump and his team and Jared and Steve Witkoff, they deserve a ton of credit for actually accomplishing things. When they came into office, this is what they did. They focused on it. They focused on changing the way of looking at things. And I think people need to be able to say that I can really, really thank him for doing that, but also maybe disagree with him on a different subject. And I think that's the area where we are, is that if those subjects that someone's focusing on are ones that really matter to you, that that's something that you can appreciate that about a person. It may not be enough for you to vote for them, but that's a personal decision. That goes back to your question from earlier, like about, you know, trying to defend the Democratic Party. I think some of this stuff is just not defensible. I'm not going to try. And there are Republicans I have voted for throughout my life and I will continue to vote for if I think that they better represent the points of view I have. I've definitely voted for more Democrats. I'm a registered Democrat and I will stay that way for at least for the foreseeable future. But, you know, I think there's a lot of people who, there needs to be a lot more listening and a lot more understanding. And I think that, you know, going back to the beginning of our conversation, my boss, Judith Hope, understood that really better than almost anybody I worked with. And I think that having that curiosity and that commitment to actually being able to understand that a Democrat in Binghamton or is going to be different than a Democrat in Brooklyn and understanding that someone who, you know, may be able to be like, you know, like the mayor in Hornell, New York, is going to be different needs than a Democrat who's going to be on, you know, Long island and in Suffolk or Nassau and understanding that even when the communities within those places, you're going to get different definitions of a Democrat. But the underlying point is what are the things that you fundamentally care about? And I think that both parties have a big problem with it. I don't think it's only the Democratic Party. I think the Republican Party has a big problem too. It's just that being having the power that they do now, I don't. And having such a significant figure in, in President Trump is. It makes it less of an issue. But I think when he's not president anymore, I think they're going to have some challenges also.
- [28:26]
Mike Pesca
Matthew Hiltik is the founder of Hiltic Strategies. His job sometimes is called fixer. You heard the official designation of what he does. From corporate communications to crisis management to media relations and all the rest. You've been very generous with your time. Great, great catching up again. Thank you, Matthew.
- [28:45]
Matthew Hiltzik
Yeah, thanks so much, Mike.
- [28:55]
Mike Pesca
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- [30:38]
Jeff
Got donuts.
- [30:39]
Dana
Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?
- [30:42]
Jeff
Well I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me.
- [30:47]
Dana
So Dana oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
- [31:00]
Jeff
Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.
- [31:08]
Ad Voice
Nice.
- [31:08]
Dana
Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [31:09]
Jeff
T Mobile is the best place to.
- [31:11]
T-Mobile Announcer
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- [31:13]
Jeff
Us with eligible traded in any condition. So what are we having for lunch?
- [31:18]
Dana
Dude, my work here is done.
- [31:20]
T-Mobile Announcer
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- [31:36]
Matthew Hiltzik
T mobile.com.
- [31:39]
Mike Pesca
And now the spiel Dick Cheney has died. The former Vice President had extremely important positions in the administrations of George W. Bush, George H.W. bush. Gerald Ford, in a fairly prominent position in the Nixon administration, was also a member of the US House of Representatives. His career could be described as storied. It's certainly as impressive a resume as any non president has assembled in the last hundred years. But Cheney's entire legacy will inevitably refract to one decision to invade Iraq. I found this tape from 1993. He had left office a few months prior after serving as Secretary of defense under George H.W. bush, where he and the defense apparatus successfully repelled the Iraqis out of Kuwait. A caller to C Span asked him, what do we do about Saddam Hussein now? Here was his answer.
- [32:40]
Ad Voice
As I look at it, I see Saddam Hussein as basically a pathetic figure. This is a man whose army's been destroyed, whose reputation I think has been permanently tarnished, who has no capacity at this point to threaten his neighbors. I think it's important for us to maintain the sanctions that are currently enforced to make certain that he doesn't begin to sell oil and use the proceeds from those sales to regenerate significant military capability. But I don't see Saddam Hussein at this point as a threat to the region. As long as we maintain the posture that we have at present, I keep the coalition together, and I would remind everybody we did exactly what we said we were going to do. We went in and liberated Kuwait and destroyed Saddam's offensive military capability. That was our goal and objective. That's what we accomplished.
- [33:23]
Mike Pesca
Within a decade of that call and after the attacks of September 11, which Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with, Cheney came to a different conclusion. Or to be maximally fair to him, Cheney believed that the intelligence he commissioned pointed him to a different conclusion. But then again, that was the problem, wasn't it? That the research he commissioned was all but predef to reach that conclusion. That said, look, let's realize history is a complicated affair and it is contingent. And so it seems now in retrospect and also at the time, in foresight, because many were saying it before the invasion, that it was a poor decision to go in and to overthrow Saddam Hussein. But just to play devil's advocate, a phrase in this instance perhaps closer to literal than usual, after the war which deposed Saddam, one of the world's worst dictators, the lives of the average Iraqi did improve by a lot. That said, that statistic is about the lives of the average surviving Iraqi. There are hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who lost their lives, many of them loyalists to Saddam. But then again, in an oppressive, autocratic society, there wasn't much choice but to be loyal to the Ba' Athist party, given that it controlled every aspect of your life. All of this is to say that it was quite clearly not in the long term monetary, moral, health, or psychological interests of this country, the country that then Vice President Dick Cheney was serving. It wasn't in the interests of the combatants or the survivors of the war to have undertaken this foreign entanglement. Iraq is at least not an enemy state of the United States. What happened to Iraq was probably better than what happened to Syria. Having left Saddam Hussein in place might well have led to worse outcomes, if not nuclear outcomes. But also, by the way, let's note again, here's the devil's advocate rearing his horns. Not only did Dick Cheney believe that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, so did Saddam Hussein. He believed that his ministers were so afraid of him that they lied. So did he lie us into war? Did Dick Cheney lie us into war? Was the war that we got into all for the bad? These are the questions that will define Dick Cheney's legacy. Dick Cheney, who once smiled in 1997, I believe has now died at the age of 84. Now, he said his legacy. Let's also Note this he is survived by his wife and two daughters, each of whom individually, in their own ways, have taken principled stands against political currents which mark them as apostates to conservatism, or at least their existing tribes. So in that way, their spines, their adherence to principle as they defined it, that was in a way consistent with the work and example of their father. The difference in most people's eyes being the legitimacy of the principle as opposed to the steadfastness of the pursuit thereof. And that's it for today's show. Cory Wara produces the Gist. Jeff Craig is our social media director. Kathleen Sykes and I collaborate on the Gist list. Have you Texted Mike at 33777? Big things are going on with the Gist list. Michelle Pesca oversees it all benevolently. She would never commission any predestined or pre cooked intelligence. She also makes a delicious yellow cake.
- [37:30]
Matthew Hiltzik
Boom.
- [37:31]
Marketing Voice
Peru.
- [37:31]
Mike Pesca
G Peru. Do Peru. And thanks for listening.
- [37:40]
Marketing Voice
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