Tom Steyer’s Very Expensive Optimism

Summary

The Gist: Tom Steyer’s Very Expensive Optimism

Podcast: The Gist
Host: Mike Pesca (Peach Fish Productions)
Episode Date: June 6, 2026
Main Guest: Tom Steyer
Episode Theme: A nuanced exploration of billionaire Tom Steyer’s environmental activism, investment philosophy, and political ambitions, including his uniquely optimistic and practical approach to solving the climate crisis.

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Overview

This episode centers on Tom Steyer—billionaire investor, environmentalist, and recent California gubernatorial candidate. Host Mike Pesca features both a satirical retrospective on Steyer’s 2020 presidential run and an in-depth interview about Steyer’s new book, Cheaper, Faster, Better: How We’ll Win the Climate War. The discussion probes Steyer’s optimism on climate solutions, his investor mindset, tensions within the environmental movement, and the role of economics and technology in the path toward net zero emissions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Is Tom Steyer on the Public Stage?

• Pesca opens with tongue-in-cheek commentary about Steyer’s relative obscurity, noting he’s only “top of mind” for Tom, his wife Kat, or those following the California primary closely.
• Steyer is gaining traction in the California gubernatorial race; late-breaking Democratic votes could produce an unexpected Bashara-Steyer matchup (01:00–01:30).
• Pesca recaps Steyer’s background: billionaire activism, climate change focus, “Need to Impeach” campaign ads, and presidential ambitions, often poking fun at his campaign’s style and Steyer’s frequent TV presence (09:09–10:10).

Notable Quote

• “Are you like me? Is Tom Steyer on your mind? Okay, let’s go through the checklist. If Tom Steyer is on your mind: One, are you Tom Steyer? Probably, yes.” (01:00–01:10, Pesca)

Steyer’s Investor Mindset Applied to Climate Change

• Steyer frames his entire environmental philosophy through the lens of a professional investor, emphasizing risk assessment, practicality, and seeking market-driven solutions (17:55–19:00).

Notable Quote

• “Being an investor... is really about assessing the future, thinking, what’s going to happen? What can I do to be part of the good things? What can I do to avoid the bad things?” (17:57, Steyer)

• He contrasts this with other environmentalists who come from a scientific background—crucial for understanding the problem, but less so for implementing scalable solutions.

The S Curve, Market Forces, and How Societal Change Happens

• Steyer argues new technologies follow an S curve: slow uptake until cost and performance cross a critical threshold, followed by rapid adoption (21:51–24:13).
• Electric vehicles (EVs) in China are given as a primary example—”30% of cars sold last year were EVs” and projections show steep growth.

Notable Quote

• "We're going to win this because people are going to buy things that they want, that serve them... business and profits scale and that's how you solve a global problem.” (19:08–20:45, Steyer)

Hard Trade-offs: Oil, the Economy, and the Path to Net Zero

• Pesca pushes Steyer on the “hard choices” —as EVs grow, what’s the approach to ongoing fossil fuel extraction? Can we afford to stop oil production before alternatives are fully viable? (20:45–25:11)
• Steyer concedes we won’t be off fossil fuels imminently but insists we “literally cannot afford to produce half the proven oil and gas reserves” globally—doing so would be disastrous. The solution: win in the marketplace by rapidly scaling better, cheaper technologies. (25:11–27:23)
• Teases a pragmatic optimism: “I'm looking at these technologies every day as an investor, it's like, wow, they're terrific... the innovations that are coming and that are here are so terrific.” (27:23, Steyer)

Economics Is the Forcing Function—But All Costs Matter

• Steyer rebuts the idea that only immediate economic impacts matter; broader social and environmental costs (e.g., climate disasters, home insurance, power outages) must be counted too (29:44–32:32).
• Calls on Americans to “pull together and come up with solutions for the world.”

Notable Quote

• “We are confronted with a crisis. We've been confronted with a bunch of crises before. And this country was built to lead the world, to solve big problems. That's who we are, that's what we do, that's what we're best at... Here is a chance for us to do something and win together.” (31:09–32:02, Steyer)

The Dangers of Doomerism and the Case for Optimism

• Steyer criticizes two common misapprehensions:

  1. That fossil fuels will always dominate.
  2. That climate doom is inevitable and can’t be solved.

• Stresses that the climate crisis is solvable with determined innovation and collective will (32:38–33:13).

Notable Quote

• “This is a big problem, but it's a problem we definitely can solve, that we have to solve, and we definitely will solve it. It's just a question of how fast we decide to do it and how fast we pull together to succeed.” (32:53, Steyer)

Technology Fixes: The Role of Carbon Capture

• About a quarter of the ultimate solution, Steyer estimates, must come from carbon sequestration. He calls “impractical” the movement’s instinct to dismiss carbon capture as an oil industry grift—it's vital for getting to net zero. (34:00–35:41)

Notable Quote

• "We have to figure out ways to reduce the carbon in the atmosphere... And that's exactly what I believe Americans do.” (34:44, Steyer)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I have found in the past [Steyer’s ad style] to reveal too much crotch. ... There is a little more thigh. He's not usually shot from... the waist up. We get the crotch area in many of the Need to Impeach ads. I find it also very off putting.” (10:39–11:18, Pesca, satirical)
• “Would you say American Pie is just this side of softcore porn?” (16:48, Pesca, referencing Steyer’s film financing)
• “Optimism doesn't get people to work. ... You don't put an 87 hopetain instead of octane level gas in your car.” (27:23, Pesca)
• “Let's face the facts, let's look at the future honestly. Let's be honest with ourselves, and then let's succeed.” (34:44, Steyer)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00 | Satirical Steyer intro and primary update | | 09:09 | Retrospective humor: Steyer’s presidential run and campaign ads | | 15:59 | Main interview with Tom Steyer begins | | 17:55 | Steyer discusses his investor mindset in approaching climate issues | | 21:35 | Steyer explains the S curve of technological adoption and China EV growth | | 25:11 | Conceding the need for ongoing, but shrinking, fossil fuel extraction | | 27:23 | Optimism rooted in real technology innovations | | 29:44 | The full economic cost of fossil fuels, beyond immediate price of energy | | 32:32 | Steyer on American capacity for big problem-solving | | 32:38 | The danger of climate doomerism | | 34:00 | Importance of carbon capture/sequestration in the solution mix | | 35:41 | Interview ends |

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Tone and Style

• The episode blends satirical, self-aware humor (especially in Pesca’s commentary on political spectacle and advertising) with a deeply practical, results-focused discussion on climate futures.
• Steyer’s tone is relentlessly optimistic and pragmatic, always circling back to economic realities and betting on human ingenuity.

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Conclusion

Tom Steyer’s Very Expensive Optimism is part roast, part master class in climate optimism. Through sarcasm, pointed questions, and Steyer’s clear-eyed investor logic, the episode challenges fatalistic narratives around climate change. Steyer’s belief is that market forces, technology, and American ingenuity—fueled by pragmatic optimism—will win the climate war, provided we properly account for the real costs and harness innovation at scale. The episode is especially valuable for listeners looking for hopeful, practical angles on environmental solutions, with plenty of lively, meme-worthy wit along the way.

Transcript

[Tom Steyer]

Soldiers.

[Narrator/Announcer]

You are about to embark upon the great crusade. From Focus Features and the producers of Darkest Hour. There are two major storms advancing towards the Normandy coast this weekend on the anniversary of D Day. If you invade tomorrow, they're going to be washed away. Honor their courage. Get my men onto the beaches somehow. Anyhow, see their story. We will accept nothing less than full victory pressure. The untold true story of D Day Radio 13 may be inappropriate for children under 13. Now playing only in theaters. The Second World War is the largest event in human history. A 20 part documentary series with Tom Hanks.

[Tom Steyer]

No part of the globe was untouched, no life unchanged.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Experience. The ultimate account of World War II.

[Tom Steyer]

Every single person had a story. These are the stories that make us who we are.

[Narrator/Announcer]

World War II with Tom Hanks new episode Monday at 8. Part of history honors 250 only on the history Channel.

[Mike Pesca]

Hello, it's Mike. It's Saturday. It's the Saturday show. And are you like me? Is Tom Steyer on your mind? Okay, let's go through the checklist. If Tom Stier is on your mind. One, Are you Tom Steyer?

[Tom Steyer]

Probably, yes.

[Mike Pesca]

Two, are you married to Tom Stier? You know, his wife's name is Kat and their ranch is called the Tomcat Ranch. Three. That's it. Those are all the people who are thinking about Tom Stier. No, no, I exaggerate. Tom Steyer is currently third but rising with a bullet in the California Guber gubernatorial gubernatorial primary. And the votes are coming in late, but the votes are coming in more Democratic. So Steve Hilton, who is number one in the polls, he might go down to Javier Bashara. He's maybe the guy who's definitely going to get through and be at least one Democrat in the race. But there is a chance that Tom Stier gets through and the race is between Bashara and Stier. I talked about on the show this week how a similar phenomenon is happening in the L. A mayor's race. Late breaking Democratic votes. I have not interviewed Spencer Pratt, who's perhaps in that second or third place position. Or have I interviewed Javier Bechera, Steve Hilton? I've interviewed Tom Steyer. So I'm going to bring you my interview with Tom Steyer and I'm also going to bring you a very snarky take, but I think deserved that. I offered in the beginning of a show in 2019, July of 2019, when Tom Steyer burst or moseyed and sat in a on a log and we got to see versions of his lower anatomy that we didn't ask to going to play you some of my take When Tom Steyer first ran for president. That one's mostly for humorous, humorous interpretation. Then the interview I did a couple of years ago is mostly about the climate. And then after all that, I'm pretty proud of myself. I didn't play this before the vote. I wouldn't have wanted to affect the vote. But after all that, maybe you can answer Is Tom Steyer one of the two very best people who could run California? He may be When a billionaire is civic minded and wants to spend some of that money to help the environment and his state, I say go for it. There are worse reasons to run for governor. So Tom Stier a take and an interview up next, Here's something I hate. I mean I hate having to make a call to customer service. But these days, man are you inviting on yourself. Just endless frustration, no one getting back to you. And then on the other side of it, if you do run a business and this isn't your strategy because I know a lot of businesses, but mine included, want to be responsive to customers. They just know that missed calls or not following up, it's just a killer for businesses. That's how you leave money on the table. That is why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O the business communication system built so you never miss a call. Kuo is the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews. And it's built for how modern teams work. And more than 90,000 businesses, from just a guy working alone to really big teams, rely on it to stay connected and professional and consistently reachable. And don't you want that as a point of pride, not just for the business case, but for who you are and how you represent yourself as a business. It works wherever you are, right from your phone or computer. Keep your existing number and teammates in minutes, sync your CRM and let the call routing handle itself as you scale. It's so very, very easy. And they give you the voicemails and the transcripts and it's all in one clean view. You don't have to press a million codes to chase it down. Money is on the line. Always say hello with quo. Try quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com gist that's quo.com gist the 2026 primaries are taking shape and you could trade the biggest political races on Calci. On Calci you could trade major primaries, election outcomes and the biggest political storylines as they happen. Will Spencer Pratt become the mayor of la? I don't know. Probably not. But that probability has a number. And if the public's assessment of the probability is different from mine, I could have fun with it and not just sit thousands of mil away and say, how's this thing going? I could say, how's this thing going? And I'm making some money off it. Hey, look, I don't want to talk about specific candidates. In the presidential race, there are all these Democratic candidates who are like 2% and if you quote, invest in them, they go up to 6% chance of winning and you feel great about yourself, right? So from two to six, a hundred dollar trade. If you put in $100, I mean you're getting $300 right there at Kalshee. And let me tell you one other thing. This is a hedge against disappointment in a way. That's how I use it psychologically. If I see someone who I think is undervalued and just might win and it wouldn't necessarily please me, you know, making a couple bucks on it on the side, is that silver lining that maybe gets me through election day? For a limited time, download the Calci app and use code gist to get $10. When you trade 10, you got to do that. There's no way. Why? Why would you leave $10 on the table? K a l sh I cowsheet trade on anything 18 and over. Only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Prices, values and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see kalsheet.com Regulatory Summer always changes how I get dressed. Not really how, just what I wear. I want pieces that feel lighter and more breathable. Of course, that's why I keep coming back to quints. They are reliable, they are high quality, they look amazing. And the price, well, the price is also. Did I already say amazing? The price is transcendent. Quint's European linen pants and shirts are starting at $34. Their T shirts are soft and easy to wear. Lightweight cotton sweaters. I have a pair of Quint kind of dressy pants, kind of stretchy pants. They very much work for me. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com the gist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com the Gist for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/the gist Soldiers, you are about to

[Tom Steyer]

embark upon the great crusade from Focus

[Narrator/Announcer]

Features and the producers of Darkest Hour. There are two major storms advancing towards the Normandy coast this weekend on the anniversary of D Day. If you invade tomorrow, they're going to be washed away. Honor their courage. Get my men onto the beaches somehow. Anyhow, see their story. We will accept nothing less than full victory pressure. The untold true story of D Day Radio 13 may be inappropriate for children under 13 now playing only in theaters.

[Mike Pesca]

It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca. The Democrats, or some half of the Democrats, half, minus Moulton and minus C. Stack, will debate tonight in Detroit. Not joining them on stage, but providing the interstitial entertainment will be this guy.

[Tom Steyer]

Hi, I'm Tom Steyer. I'm running for president.

[Mike Pesca]

He's running for president because what will CNN viewers be desperate to see after seeing 20 people who are running for president, most of whom they'd never consider voting for some other guy running for president who they would never consider voting for? Tom Stier will be buying up a copious amount of ads in between the candidates debating. He wasn't allowed there in Detroit because he didn't get in early enough. He might not be allowed in the next debate because. Because he might fail to get the requisite 130,000 unique donations to his campaign to be a billionaire president. I think that donor list should be used as a reverse poll tax. You are crazy enough to donate to a billionaire running for president whose only qualification for president is that he's a billionaire. Sorry, you can't vote now. Along with the Styer for president ads, viewers will also be seeing ads from this organization need to impeach. Here was an ad they ran last year.

[Tom Steyer]

He's brought us to the brink of nuclear war, obstructed justice at the FBI, and in direct violation of the Constitution. He's taken money from foreign governments and threatened to shut down news organizations that report the truth. If that isn't a case for impeaching and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become?

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, fine. But who is the guy with the quite pleasant voiceover chops?

[Tom Steyer]

I'm Tom Steyer, and like you, I'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something.

[Mike Pesca]

What more Tom Stier, of course, in the need to impeach ads, Tom Stier, he's always the star of them. By the way, Tom Stier is usually sitting down with an unusual camera angle that I have found in the past to reveal too much crotch. There is a little more thigh. He's not usually shot from say the waist up. We get the crotch area in many of the need to impeach ads. I find it also very off putting. Maybe the need to impeach ads and the discomfort they cause actually explain his candidacy. So the theory would go like this. Tom Stier and his people think that there can be only one thing that would make the need to impeach ads something other than the worst thing on television. So they created the Tom Stier for President ads. In fact the whole campaign just to bump up those need to impeach crotch centric ads one slot in either case, Tom Steyer will be extremely present during both these debates, having bought ad time with the limited slots that CNN is putting up for bid. You realize, of course, this is something of what they call a moral hazard. If CNN creates rules that exclude Tom Steyer, then Tom Steyer will just pay money to appear in ads on cnn. They have every incentive not to allow him to appear. I guess what this adds up to for me is that Seth Moulton and Joe C. Stack really have no argument that CNN is out to get them for reasons other than the obvious reason no one wants to watch them on tv. And that's without them even saying the three most off putting words in Democratic politics.

[Tom Steyer]

I'm Tom Steyer.

[Mike Pesca]

Summer always changes how I get dressed. Not really how, just what I wear. I want pieces that feel lighter and more breathable. Of course, that's why I keep coming back to quints. They are reliable. They are high quality. They look amazing. And the price. Well, the price is also. Did I already say amazing? The price is transcendent. Quint's European linen pants and shirts are starting at $34. Their T shirts are soft and easy to wear. Lightweight cotton sweaters. I have a pair of Quint kind of dressy pants, kind of stretchy pants. They very much work for me. Everything at quints is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com the gist for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com/the gist for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/the gist the 2026 primaries are taking shape and you could trade the biggest political races on cow sheet on calci. You could trade major primaries, election outcomes and the biggest political storylines as they happen. Will Spencer Pratt become the mayor of la? I don't know. Probably not. But that probability has a number. And if the public's assessment of the probability is different from mine, I could have fun with it and not just sit thousands of miles away and say, how's this thing going? I could say, how's this thing going? And I'm making some money off it. Hey, look, I don't want to talk about specific candidates. In the presidential race, there are all these Democratic candidates who are like 2% and if you quote, invest in them, they go up to 6% chance of winning and you feel great about yourself, right? So from 2 to 6, $100 trade. If you put in $100, I mean, you're getting $300 right there at Kalshee. And let me tell you one other thing. This is a hedge against disappointment in a way. That's how I use it psychologically. If I see someone who I think is undervalued and just might win and it wouldn't necessarily please me, you know, making a couple bucks on it on the side, is that silver lining that maybe gets me through election day? For a limited time, download the Kalshi app and use code gist to get $10. When you trade 10, you got to do that. There's no way. Why? Why would you leave $10 on the table? K A L S H I Kalshi trade on anything 18 and over. Only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Prices, values and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see kalshee.com regulatory soldiers.

[Tom Steyer]

You are about to embark upon the

[Narrator/Announcer]

great crusade from Focus Features and the producers of Darkest Hour. There are two major storms advancing towards the Normandy coast this weekend on the anniversary of D Day. If you invade tomorrow, they're going to be washed away away. Honor their courage. Get my men onto the beaches somehow. Anyhow, see their story. We will accept nothing less than full victory pressure. The Untold True Story of D Day, rated PG13, may be inappropriate for children under 13 now playing only in theaters.

[Mike Pesca]

Tom Steyer is a billionaire investor, an environmentalist. You probably remember him from the 2020 presidential race. And as I found out reading his new book, Cheaper, Faster, Better How We'll Win the Climate War. Without Tom Steyer, we might not have had the Usual Suspects and American Pie. So that will not be the focus of this discussion. Tom, welcome to the gist, Mike.

[Tom Steyer]

Thank you for having me.

[Mike Pesca]

Did you know before we get to everything else did you know what you had in the Usual Suspects?

[Tom Steyer]

Absolutely not. Our rule was, this is a financing business. Let's make sure we get the finances right. Our only rules were no softcore porn. No extreme violence movies that we can be proud of or at least not ashamed of. And then it turned out that we financed some unbelievably great movies.

[Mike Pesca]

Would you say American Pie is just this side of softcore porn?

[Tom Steyer]

Yes. And I will say this. I went home and said to my family, this is a movie about four kids trying to lose their virginity in the last month of high school. And everyone in my family goes, haven't they made that movie 100 times before?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And it's been successful, in fact, fun fact for you, for many years. Porky's was the most successful movie in the history of Canada. It's a Canadian movie. Okay. If you get nothing else from this interview, you got that. So you have been an environmentalist, can mean many things, but you're very practical. And even if you don't explicitly say this, you obviously view our environmental disaster dilemma through the lens of bets and an analysis that involves risk and trying to allocate resources in the smartest possible way. So my first question is, do you think other environmentalists, people who are aligned with you on the cause, don't have that orientation? And does it hurt the cause in general?

[Tom Steyer]

Well, Mike, I want to put myself in perspective and in contrast to many of my extremely close friends who are involved in the same movement, which is I'm a professional investor. I've been a professional investor since I was 22 years old, and that's what I've done as a career. And being an investor means you use the word bet, but it is really about assessing the future, thinking, what's going to happen? What can I do to be part of the good things? What can I do to avoid the bad things? What can I make the good things better? And so that is a way of thinking about the world and also allocating resources, as you said, that's completely alien to a way of thinking for most human beings. That's just not how they think. And so an awful lot of people come to environmental problems from a scientific standpoint, which is, here's the problem. The point about being an investor is, okay, that's the first point to get to. But the real point is, what are we going to do about it? How do we solve that problem and turn it into an opportunity for us to have a better life?

[Mike Pesca]

So where has your orientation led you? Where others. To insights that others might not have.

[Tom Steyer]

Well, I think that one of the things about being an investor is you have to be, as you said, completely practical. And if you think about the title of the book, Cheaper, Faster, Better, it's like producing a product that works is not nearly good enough. For a long time, people were pushing for solar power, but it was much more expensive than fossil fuel power. And in this world, no one is going to buy much more expensive commodity energy to try and be nice. And that's exactly what happened. People didn't do it. What happened was the cost curves crossed. If you think about the story that I tell in the book, one of my best friends, who is a, what I would think of as a traditional business Republican, who loves cars, who is a car guy, who when I first met him at the age of 18, put me in his car and went up, showed it could go up to 100 miles an hour, had been driving expensive European sports cars and traded in for a Tesla. And I said, matthew, basically, you're trying to save the world. And he was like, absolutely not. This thing has pickup. Like you can't believe it handles really well. And his basic point, my point is Cheaper, faster, better. That we're going to win this because people are going to buy things that they want that serve them, and that we're going to have to come up with an awful lot of innovations. We're going to have to build an awful lot of companies and businesses because business and profits scale and that's how you solve a global problem.

[Mike Pesca]

So let's take Teslas or EVs. As of 2023, the latest figures I saw said that 0.83% of all registered cars were electric vehicles. So it's great that it's so much more than a few years ago. And if you go to some Nordic countries, that number is touching the double digits. But we're of course going to have the internal combustion engine for years and decades. And so then you have a problem. Well, what do we do in terms of extracting the oil to power those cars that we need, or else the economy grinds to a halt. So what do we do? Do we stop production or do we acknowledge, of course we have to keep extracting oil, extracting fossil fuels. We know what it does to the environment, but we're committed to it. Otherwise we'll never even have enough riches to get to the solution.

[Tom Steyer]

So let me just disagree politely with your assumptions. Your assumption is that we're going to, that the. You're using the amount of cars that are existing EVs. Is that in the United States or worldwide?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, that's us. Right.

[Tom Steyer]

So let me say the US is not the world, particularly around cars. That in fact, the way that new innovations in general for the last couple hundred years have worked is it follows kind of an S curve, which is it takes a long time for them to be. To be better than the status quo technology, whether it's whale blubber or kerosene or now oil and gas. But when the cross, the cost curves cross, and when the new technology is legitimately better, it goes up in an, you know, almost vertically. So if you look, for instance, in the largest car market in the world, which by the way, is China, 30% of the cars sold last year were EVs. The expectation is 80% of the cars sold in five years in China will be EVs. That that will be true around the world because they're so much cheaper to buy, so much cheaper to maintain, and so much cheaper to fuel up. So that, in fact, we literally cannot afford to do the amount of emissions, pollution associated with fossil fuels for the next 30 years. We literally cannot afford it. And you can see that in terms of not just the climate statistics that no one pays any attention to, but the events coming from the changes in climate that are coming every day and where there are things happening around the United States that are significant, that are all connected by the fact that the climate is changing and which are incredibly expensive to human safety, human incomes, and to our future.

[Mike Pesca]

So China does have more cars, but it's not tremendously more cars than the United states. They have 320 million cars registered. The United States has 280 million. Of course, China has five times the population, but the United States is much richer. So the United States lack of pickup compared to China, no pun intended, it shows a lot of things, but it's significant. The fact you're right, I acknowledge the United States is not the world, but when it comes to cars, it's a large part of the world market, as is Europe. And all the projections say that we're going to have cars with internal combustion engines on the road for years and years to come.

[Tom Steyer]

So the question is definitely true, Mike. Okay, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just. What I'm saying to you is the pace at which it changes follows a very consistent S curve through technologies for hundreds of years. And this is following it as well. Right.

[Mike Pesca]

So my question is, and I read all your stuff about whales and blubber and the great, the great excerpts from 1858 shipping publications that weren't on the right side of history. Unless maybe you're well, but the question is these. This is a hard choice. This is a hard choice thrust upon us. And if we say one day things will get better, and I believe you, I think it's a good story. What will we do in the meantime? We do need to extract a ton of oil, sadly, unfortunately, in the interim, don't we? What? I don't want to subsidize the oil companies, but what should we do in terms of saying, no, we won't be drilling for oil. We'll just let the Russians and our competitors do that, since the world will need oil.

[Tom Steyer]

I absolutely agree with the idea that we're not getting off fossil fuels in the short term or the medium term. I understand that. But I also understand that we literally cannot afford not to reduce emissions very substantially between now and 2030 and really get to net zero by 2050. When we think about. What does that mean? Well, let's talk. If you're going to talk. What you're really talking about is oil reserves, oil and gas reserves. We literally cannot afford to produce half of the proven oil and gas reserves in the world right now. If you look at, in terms of what it would mean from an emission standpoint to do that, that would be. I think we're going to go with the word disastrous. But the point of the book I wrote is we need to win in the marketplace right now. I would bet, you know, there are EVs sold in China for 8,000 bucks. We're just at the beginning of dropping the cost of electric vehicles. And the reason for that is an electric vehicle is kind of a car surrounding a battery. And that's it. There are many, many fewer. It's really a big battery and the technology and battery is going through revolutions. We will have two revolutions in batteries this decade, and that's going to bring down the cost and drive up the range of EVs. So that, in fact, this is going to be a superior technology, which is going to be shown in terms of cost and performance. And that is the S curve is when somebody sits there and goes, it's cheaper, it's faster, it handles better, it's way easier to control. But it has to happen this way, Mike. And that's why the reason that I'm optimistic is I'm looking at these technologies every day as an investor, it's like, wow, they're terrific. People don't realize that the innovations that are coming and that are here are so terrific. I tried to highlight the young people in this book who are leading this revolution, both especially on a technological basis, and they're coming up with amazing stuff. And that is actually how we're going to win.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, I'm optimistic too. In fact, I was looking at looking into buying an ev, a Chinese EV sold in Mexico to see if it would be street legal here or they don't allow it, but it is so promising. But my question on this is you're an advisor to Gavin Newsom. You had the. Yeah, you were. You have a lot of relations with Gavin Newsom over the years. You were the chief advisor of his task force on the economic recovery. You put sustainability at the forefront of what you were trying to do. You achieved a lot. The Biden administration has choices to make about whether to allow or not allow drilling in the United States. My preference would be for us not having to need it. And I am optimistic. But you know, optimism doesn't get people to work. Right. You don't put an 87 hopetain instead of octane level gas in your car. In the interim, is there evidence that were we to ban drilling or stop excavation for oil in the United States that that would in some way drive down supply of oil? I mean, I've heard theories that if we stop producing the oil, we'll have to get off the oil, but I don't know that beyond that sentence there is any empirical data showing that that's true.

[Tom Steyer]

So let's step back for a second, Mike, and talk about the different forcing functions in how we go forward. And the assumption that you're making is that which is a commonly made assumption is that the forcing function is we need to have fuel to drive our economy and that that is the most important thing. And if we don't have that, it's devastating for us. Let me say we do have alternatives that are. If they either aren't cheaper, faster and better now they definitely will be. And those are things which are. I can go through each one of the cases for fossil fuels, but the forcing function is really about the very near term. You're talking about a maybe five year problem and you're talking about a maybe 50 year solution.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so you're saying in five years, where do you predict EV takeup will be in the United States in five years?

[Tom Steyer]

I'm predicting EVs will be much cheaper at every level and have higher performance than internal combustion engine cars.

[Mike Pesca]

Okay, so something like very clearly 10, 15% of cars will be EVs in five years.

[Tom Steyer]

Well, the real question is this. Even if they're 80% of sales, no one's going to turn in their car. The old internal. When you say 80%, it's like, okay, every year, if that's the way the sales go, how long do people drive their cars? 12 to 15 years. So if you add 15 years to where we are now, is it going to take that long for us to get rid of them? Yes, I totally understand that, but let me make the other point. You are assuming the forcing function is economics. And I'm saying. My whole point of my book is to say we have to win economically. Mike is going to claim we have to win economically. Everybody's going to claim we have to win economically. So let's go win goddamn economically. Yeah, okay, check. But let me make the other point. The true forcing function is, are we, in fact, going to be preserving a world that is inhabitable by human beings safely? That is the. And so when you say the forcing function is the cost of jobs and the availability of energy at a reasonable price. Check. Okay. Now, along with that, there is the cost of home ownership in Florida and home insurance in Florida. Okay. Did you include that in your numbers? Then there is the cost of what's going on right now in Texas, in Houston, Texas, where hundreds of thousands of people have their power knocked out by storm, and in fact, they're having an absolutely unusual heat wave that is dangerous for human beings to live in. Check. I mean, you look at the costs that are not borne by the fossil fuel industry, caused by the fossil fuel industry, and you say, really, Mike, you're looking at the economics, but are you looking at all the economics, or are you looking at the economics to the fossil fuel industry? Because when you look at the future of the United States, we are confronted with a crisis. We've been confronted with a bunch of crises before. And this country was built to lead the world, to solve big problems. That's who we are, that's what we do, that's what we're best at, and that's what we're proud of ourselves for. And here's a big one for us. We can't solve it in the Democratic Party. We have to solve it as Americans. We have to solve it with people who know a lot about energy. So here is a chance for us to do something and win together and recognize each other's strengths and value. People on a winning team love each other. Why don't we go back and win this problem and do what we do best, which is pull together and come up with solutions for the world.

[Mike Pesca]

Do you think the climate or environmental movement has been too beset by doomerism?

[Tom Steyer]

Definitely. I mean, I think the reason I wrote the book was I felt there were two very common, what I think of as misapprehensions. One is that fossil fuels power this economy and always will, and that just can't be true and isn't true. And the second one is we're in a doom loop of climate disaster and that we can't get out of it, so we should just throw up our hands. This is a big problem, but it's a problem we definitely can solve, that we have to solve, and we definitely will solve it. It's just a question of how fast we decide to do it and how fast we pull together to succeed.

[Mike Pesca]

So how do you and I read your. What? Well, what you do in the book is lay out a more optimistic case and you draw on facts and you talk about all the advances, for instance, in technology. We talked about batteries a second ago. Climate capture is very interesting. There is a slice of the environmental movement that says, you know, when you talk about carbon capture, what you're really doing is playing into the industry's hands and trading on false hope. And what the best thing we could do is just put it off the table, assume it won't happen. And in some cases there is a lot of rhetoric and thought that it's a grift. You know, you always hear this. How do you think about incorporating the technologies that aren't going to solve the problems on their own, but could become a part of the solutions mix?

[Tom Steyer]

They're a critical part of the solution and it isn't something you can put off. Mike, I mean, to give you some very simple numbers, just to put it in perspective, about a quarter of the solution is going to be what we think of as sequestration, basically sucking carbon out of the atmosphere and sticking it in the ground one way or another, it's a quarter of the solution. We absolutely need it. Three quarters of the solution that means has to be reducing how much pollution we admit we emit, but we're definitely going to be emitting pollution. So we need to have a way of basically nullifying that. And that's known as sequestration. And so the idea that we should put it off, to my mind that's very impractical. That's kind of looking away from a realistic future that in order for us to succeed and get to quote net zero, we have to figure out ways to reduce the carbon in the atmosphere. And there are a bunch of different ways, and they're all technological and they're going to take a lot of work and thinking and innovation and company building. And that's exactly what I believe Americans do. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do. And so to me, you know, why don't we face. To me, the biggest question here is on all sides, let's face the facts, let's look at the future honestly. Let's be honest with ourselves, and then let's succeed. That's exactly where we are. The data is, we have a problem. So what? We've had a lot of big problems before. Let's be honest with ourselves. We're not babies. Let's face up to it and solve it. And part, a definite part of that is sequestration.

[Mike Pesca]

The name of Tom Steyer's book is Cheaper, Faster, Better How We'll Win the Climate War. The thesis is interesting. The little details along the. It serves as a backdoor biography of Tom Steyer where you find out his father was a. Was a Nuremberg prosecutor, you find out it didn't do so well on the Yale soccer team and that he did watch it and that he did, in fact, fund the usual suspects. Tom, it was great talking to you. Thanks very much, Mike.

[Tom Steyer]

Nice to talk to you, too.

[Mike Pesca]

And that's it for today's show. Cory Warr is the producer of the Gist, but not today. Jeff Craig produced today's show. Well, Cory helped. I don't want to get into all the inner dynamics, but it was, let's just call it a tandem job. Jeff usually produces how to. Ben Astaire is the booking producer of the Gist. Kathleen Sykes runs the Gist list. And Michelle Pesca oversaw that palace coup as the coo. She knows about coups and per gp. And thanks for listening.

[Tom Steyer]

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