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- [00:01]
Commercial Announcer
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- [00:30]
Mike Pesca
Hilarity will ensue for the second season of Funny you Should mention, debuting both in this here channel on the Gist and as its own feed on Funny you should mention Funny you should mention Season two features my conversations with such comedians as Rose Bud Baker, Michelle Bouto, Alex Edelman, TJ Miller. Where we sit down and I ask them, do you really believe that? Is that why you said it? Is it the funniest way to say it? It? Is it the truest way to say it? Sometimes we describe it as unpacking the profundities and punch lines. Yeah, I know that's alliterative. But what I'm trying to get at is comedians are like the modern philosophers of our time, so I asked them about their philosophy. Funny you should mention, like I said, has its own feed. Subscribing there will give you bonus materials and make sure you never miss an episode or every other week. In the gist, starting on April 4th. It's Friday, March 28th, 2025. From peach fish Productions, it's the Gist. I'm Mike Pesca. Today, Donald Trump was asked to define a woman. I think he did a good job. Said she's the one lying about me so viciously. But also Ivanka. No, he said, childbearing members of the species. And then he added, usually smarter than men. Good political instinct. Got a laugh from the endocrinologist community. And then he added a grace note.
- [01:58]
Donald Trump
I watched a congressman, a well known Democrat congressman, fighting for the fact that men should be allowed to compete essentially in women's sports. And I say I hope they keep that going because they'll never win another election. That's a big deal. But women are basically incredible. People do so much for our country and we love, we love our women.
- [02:21]
Mike Pesca
Well, that's sweet and rare. Donald Trump, big tough guy. Expressions of love don't come easy, but actually they do. Just Wednesday, in announcing tariffs, Trump veered into love on a statewide level.
- [02:34]
Donald Trump
Indiana, the great state of Indiana. I love Indiana.
- [02:37]
Mike Pesca
Same remarks. Then he went national. A nation was given his or our love.
- [02:42]
Donald Trump
Made in Ireland. Ireland was very smart. We love Ireland.
- [02:46]
Mike Pesca
He also loves certain car companies that he can't correctly pronounce. I love Tesla and a basketball coach. And for this one, he provided a reason.
- [02:54]
Donald Trump
By the way, I love Bobby Knight because he endorsed me.
- [02:57]
Mike Pesca
Check that with the whole Indiana thing. Donald Trump, man of love. Especially EV driving Irish American female Hoosiers. Yes. Emily O'Hanlon of Terre Haute, Indiana, Donald Trump has a gigantic boner aimed directly at you. I hope there are enough charging stations between you and the Canadian border to make your escape. No, I'm kidding. I'm just kidding. It's not gigantic. On the show today, spiel about the Turkish Tufts student and what she actually said or road to get snatched up by federal agents. But first, more with Scott Payne, former FBI agent. He is the author of Codename Pale Horse How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. Indeed, he did not just expose but bring charges against members of the base, a neo Nazi hate group. I should also mention that CBC has spun out a series called White Hot Hate Agent Pale Horse. It's really good. Not least of all because as you will hear and maybe have heard yesterday, Scott Payne has the gift not just of infiltration and Harley riding, but gab. Scott Payne up next. The other day I hosted a poker game. No one really wanted to get sloshed, but you know, to loosen things up. If you're a tight player, maybe it helps to have a little fun, a little buzz. But then you got the ordeal, the hangover the next day, the added weight gain. We had a solution. It Souls out of Office THC beverage. A lot of the fun, buzziness without the downsides that come from booze. This podcast is sponsored by Sol's out of Office Beverages. They're microdosed with hemp derived THC and CBD to give any situation a vacation vibe. Like I said, the well, it wasn't the raspberry lemonade. It was the cucumber flavor. Many of the poker players that I was playing with found oh so delicious. No hangovers, no alcohol, sleeplessness or anxiety. Nope, it's not what Sol's got. Whether you're looking for a sleep aid, enhanced focus or pain relief, Soul has all your wellness needs covered. If you want to feel your best, head to getsoul.com and use code the gist for 30% off your order. That's 30% off your order. Using Code the Gist one last time getsold.com and code the gist for 30% off elevating my style used to mean well. Spending way too much money and way too much time figuring out what website. Then when you go you say does the sweater look good? But Quince ends all that I know and can relate rely on high end versatile pieces at prices I can afford. Quince is a delight to clad myself in. The Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50. The leather jackets, great pants for every occasion. Formal casual pleats non they got it all. Quint Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. The key is they partner with top factories, they cut the cost of the middleman, they pass the savings on to us. I mean that sounds kind of cliche, but that's what they do and it works and you look good in them. They only work with the factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I have a Mongolian sweater. That's the one. I have worn it on a few of the videos that we put out so you could see it. You'll never know how good it feels from the inside, but I'm here to tell you it plenty good. Indulge your affordable luxury. Go to quince.com the gist for free shipping on your order and a 365 day return. That's Q U I N C E dot com the gist to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/the gist we're joined once more as we were yesterday by Scott Payne, former FBI agent, author of Codename Pale Horse, How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. And the first question today, or the first couple of questions are about this specific case and about the FBI policy in general. But first I got to know, did you, Scott, did you see the movie Hitman directed by Richard Linklater, based off.
- [07:32]
Scott Payne
The video game Hitman?
- [07:33]
Mike Pesca
No, no, it's. It's based on the real story. You know, somewhat change for the screen. Glenn Powell stars in it. Anyway, there's one point where they assert, and it's interesting and it is based on a real story. A guy who was a college professor but was really good at pretending to be a hitman and New Orleans law enforcement used him in that role. But they also make the case that there really is no such thing as a hitman. People think you could hire a hitman because of Hollywood movies, but that's not how it worked. And I said that's wrong. Not just in the mafia, there are many, many actual hitmen. That's why people go out and hire hitmen it's not just a myth. But. But is it a myth?
- [08:11]
Scott Payne
No. No. I mean, but in my experiences with all the murder for hires kind of cases that I. That I was privy to, that whole $300,000 for a hit, that is very rare.
- [08:26]
Mike Pesca
It's like 20 grand, maybe.
- [08:28]
Scott Payne
Yeah. And less. Yeah.
- [08:30]
Podcast Host
Because a lot of times it's like.
- [08:31]
Scott Payne
Hey, I want this person killed. I don't have any money yet. But when they. When you kill them, I got a $90,000, you know.
- [08:38]
Mike Pesca
Right.
- [08:39]
Scott Payne
Insurance plan. But you got to give me something. I mean, I need something. I'm not going to go.
- [08:44]
Podcast Host
I mean, what kind of a business person would I be? I'm like, all right, let me go.
- [08:47]
Scott Payne
Kill these three people based on your word from somebody I don't know. Now you're going to need to give me something. And that may be a truck title, it may be a diamond ring, until, you know, the job's done and you get your money, and then I get my money.
- [09:00]
Mike Pesca
But you and the FBI, you. You busted people looking to hire hitmen, but you also busted hitmen, right? I mean, the Justice Department and local, state, and law enforcement do arrest actual hitmen, who sure do the job. Okay, so were you. And from what I understand, reading the book, listen to podcasts. These are called cameos. When you just do a quick role as a hitman and you're not under deep cover, are you basing your character on what they think a hitman's like or the actual hitman that the actual FBI and law enforcement have actually arrested?
- [09:32]
Scott Payne
When I did it, I tried to base it on true facts. You know, I'm. You're hiring me?
- [09:38]
Podcast Host
I'm.
- [09:38]
Scott Payne
I'm. This is what we're going to do. We're going to meet. What do you want? How do you want it to look? Accident. No, accident. Doesn't matter. Disappear. Doesn't matter. What do you got to put up front for it? Don't be calling my personal phone, which is really my undercover phone. But we're going to. We're going to have a means of communication that's supposedly untraceable. And when the job's done, those phones get smashed kind of thing.
- [10:03]
Mike Pesca
Tell me about the base and give me the time frame. And how did you get involved with these guys?
- [10:09]
Scott Payne
So the base, as I say in the book, you know, a lot of people hear white supremacy. Even in law enforcement, they hear white supremacy. They think hoods and robes and cross lightings, and everybody says burning across burning. But it was the right.
- [10:25]
Mike Pesca
They call It. They will tell you it's not a cross burning. Can see the cross that's not across burning.
- [10:30]
Scott Payne
That'd be sacrilegious. We're not burning across, we're lighting the cross. And I'm like, oh, that makes perfectly good sense. Not really, but okay. So the base is one of these new. Or was one of these newer accelerationist groups. The. The ideology for acceleration was really started around in the 80s. There's a movie, I don't know if it's out yet, called the Order, that's based on a group like that. They didn't call it Accelerationism then, but it's kind of like that survivalist militia meets white supremacy, preparing for D Day, so that you got that doomsday prepper kind of thing going with the ideology essentially ending in an ethno state.
- [11:13]
Mike Pesca
Whereas we're going to set off. We're going to set off a race war. And this goes back a long time. Day of the Rope, Turner Diaries. Yes. Even. Even Charles Manson, obviously crazy, but sorry, adjudicated, not to be, but, you know, believed in this sort of stuff. That was what Helter Skelter was.
- [11:31]
Scott Payne
Yeah, yeah, I know, right? Is that a swastika on your forehead?
- [11:35]
Mike Pesca
He's really committed to the bit.
- [11:37]
Scott Payne
I'm just saying. And it's. It's not a good tattoo either. It just looks like you drew it, I mean, you know, anyway.
- [11:42]
Mike Pesca
And I don't know, it doesn't help with the parole bar.
- [11:44]
Scott Payne
I mean, you could cover it up with something. You could turn that in anything you wanted to. Just got to pack enough ink on your forehead. But so. So the accelerationist movement is. I'm glad you mentioned Charles Manson, because there's a book called Siege and it was written by James Mason, James Mason's longtime white supremacist out in Colorado. He created Atomwaffen. Atomwaffen was a big name within the last several years of an accelerationist group. And then the base was, I want to say a spin off of that, but it was another accelerationist group and the base was almost more like an umbrella accelerations group. And what I mean by that is everybody that I met in the base when I infiltrated it was a member of another white supremacy group. Whether, I mean, there was. There was Adam Waffen members in the base, but their ideology is a little bit different than you've seen in Neo Nazis in the past, where they. Neo Nazis in the past, like Aryan nations and stuff like that. They'll take the Bible, the story of the Garden of Eden, and they just twist it, wickedly twist it to match their ideology. And that was called Christian, Christian identity. But accelerationism is this accelerationism. They call it siege culture because it's that book Siege, which James Mason wrote and in there he interviews and talks with and about Charles Manson a lot, kind of idolizes him and there's some Satanism type stuff in there as well. They call it siege culture, but accelerationism is this. They don't believe that there is a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse either on its own or from man made events. And they want to speed up that collapse, hence accelerate. And they don't. They kind of go against the grain of your Charlottesville or you're out there standing on the corner waving your signs, yelling racial slurs. Number one, they say it does nothing. Number two, you're making yourself a target. And they look at more like guerrilla warfare type tactics which would be a power grid over here goes down, train derails over here, water systems poisoned over here, anti fascist or leftist or non white person gets murdered over here, businesses get set on fire, that kind of stuff. And in an attempt to set off what they referred to when I was in, they referred to it as the boogaloo, which would be like D Day, which is the, the racial war. And it, and it always ends, like I said, not, not the entire United States, but like in the base, the groups I was in, we were looking at the Appalachian Mountains as setting up somewhere in the Appalachian Mountains, setting up an ethno state. Another part of the base was looking at the Upper peninsula of Michigan and another group of the base had land in the Pacific Northwest.
- [14:41]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. So we know white supremacists murder people. We know white supremacists premises, lone wolf types. Dylann Roof will go into a church and kill black people. There are many, many other examples that aren't as notable. We know they're dangerous in many ways and often they're involved in other illegal activity. But do they actually have plausible, credible plans to attack a train depot, take down the power grid, that sort of attack on infrastructure as opposed to just one off killings of massive amounts of people or large amounts of people which can be done. So that is my question. How plausible is it to worry that they're going to take out a power grid?
- [15:27]
Scott Payne
Well, that's what we're trying to find out. That's why we're being proactive in law enforcement and going in there. We can't just go in and investigate on a whim. That's, that's wrong. You can't do that. We have to have some type of predication. You have to document whether it's, I interviewed you and you said, hey Scott, I met this guy, he's in this chat group I'm in and he's saying he wants to shoot up a synagogue. Well, that's good intel for us. Maybe we, maybe now we can open a case and we go and try to figure out whether through sources or through just good old law enforcement investigation or an undercover, go in there and try to find out what are you. I mean, I've been in groups that were neo Nazis and white supremacists and I'm talking like for five months. I read every post in this telegram group we were in. I would go to sleep for six hours, wake up and be over a thousand posts behind and I didn't miss a Single1 for 5 months because I was trying to learn. I'm also a case agent and I'm anal in that way. I didn't want to miss anything. I didn't want it to be, I didn't want it to be on my watch. But after five months and meeting up with these guys, it was clear that they were just spewing a bunch of hate. But they weren't, they didn't have the means to do anything. They weren't going to try to do anything. They were literally just training and waiting for the day itself. And then if something kicks off, then maybe they would do something. And that's not against the law.
- [16:52]
Mike Pesca
Right. So what happens then to the investigation?
- [16:56]
Scott Payne
Well, being the undercover, I'm not running the case, so I don't really have so much of a say. So if it was my case, I.
- [17:03]
Podcast Host
Would have a say so.
- [17:03]
Scott Payne
But it's going to be up to that agent, maybe their management, maybe the United States Attorney's office. Personally, when I've done things like that, like I had a case on somebody that was a well known white supremacist for a year and a half following this guy around. And I mean other than doing some malicious damage and carving a swastika into a door, it really wasn't nothing that was going to meet a federal level. Right.
- [17:27]
Mike Pesca
Because you always heard he was armed, which would be illegal as a felon, and you or someone would pull him over and he never was armed.
- [17:34]
Scott Payne
Some, some like that, some like that. But the one I was talking about that I followed for a year and a half, that guy, I ended up approaching him, I mean, I did it not out in the public. And I'm like, hey, here's the deal. I've been following you. I know that you are part of this. I know that you've been doing this, but I don't see that you're doing anything illegal. And I was wondering if maybe if you ever see anything nefarious or innocent, people are going to be hurt, would you be willing to tell me about it? And then essentially I'm still building relationships, right? I'm still connecting with people. I'm just doing it overtly as Scott Payne, the FBI agent.
- [18:10]
Mike Pesca
Right. And these are how in many types of law enforcement, confidential informant, CIS are built, right?
- [18:17]
Podcast Host
Yeah, absolutely.
- [18:19]
Mike Pesca
It does strike me that. And you have infiltrated the Klan, but it does strike me that since it's not illegal to be a racist or even to be a member of the Klan, the portions of the Klan, I guess, that don't have explicit threats, that it would seem likely to me that the members of the Klan who aren't actually actively trying to overthrow the government would work with law enforcement a lot. Does that happen?
- [18:44]
Scott Payne
Yeah, I guess it's going to be a case by case basis. But you bring up a good point that I try to make when we're putting on training or teaching or whatever.
- [18:54]
Podcast Host
When I tell, even if it's a.
- [18:55]
Scott Payne
Brand new agent, you're trying to train them up, I'm like, when I, when I'm talking to you about going out and developing sources, I'm not talking about from my world. I'm not talking about you show up in a suit and tie and it's a high ranking member of a upper societal, you know, Echelon, Fortune 500 company, whatever, and you meet them for a cup of coffee and you say, mike, I heard that you worked at this place. I sure would like it if you would give the FBI some information. And you go, well, you know what, Scott? That sounds. I'm not talking about. Right. I'm talking about you go into somebody who a lot of people would refer to as a piece of s. Right, A pos. And that person has hated law enforcement their entire life from personal experiences, from their family experiences. But after sitting down with you for an hour or whatever, they walk away saying things like, you know, for a cop, you're not that bad, or I didn't know there were cops like you, that kind of thing. And I'm not talking about the traditional where we got a charge over your head going, well, if you want to work this off, I mean, you got a picture being an undercover and say, you're the source. And you and I are going to be hanging out now, living a life kind of together, and you're my lifeline. If. If I'm out there holding this over your head going, you better do it or we're going to charge you with this. That's not the kind of trust level I want when I'm undercover with you. Because you could get pissed in the middle of that field in the middle of nowhere and say, you know what? Screw this. Scott's an FBI agent. That's not what you want.
- [20:30]
Mike Pesca
Yes. You want them to decide to do it, not to feel forced or compelled to do it. It's going to be much more fruitful for your purposes.
- [20:38]
Scott Payne
Yep. Still gaining that trust. It's a date. It's a dating game.
- [20:41]
Mike Pesca
And also, you are making, in many cases, the rational case to them, it is in your self interest to do this right. Of course, you can start getting looked at for illegal things that you didn't do, but if you tip us off to illegal things you hear happening around you, you know you're going to be able to protect yourself and your family. That sort of argument.
- [21:00]
Scott Payne
Yes. Yeah. Do the right thing. I mean, if you break I do.
- [21:05]
Mike Pesca
The right thing within the context of being, you know, a Klansman.
- [21:08]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [21:08]
Scott Payne
Maybe do the. That's a good point. Not. Not like the Klan. Right thing.
- [21:14]
Mike Pesca
I'm just saying be the best Klansman you could be, but not as defined by the clan.
- [21:19]
Scott Payne
Yeah.
- [21:20]
Podcast Host
If I do a lot of these.
- [21:21]
Scott Payne
I've been doing a lot of these interviews for the book coming out. But it's. The thing is, is I tell people, I get. Look left or right, we can go into all kinds of stuff.
- [21:31]
Podcast Host
If you're far left, I think you're.
- [21:33]
Scott Payne
Not a smart person. If you're far right, I know you're not a smart person. I've been with them. You know, just come towards the middle a little bit. It's okay for you to like something I don't and vice versa. But if you break things down into good versus evil, generally speaking, most people, human beings, know the difference between good and evil. There are those who can't tell the difference, and there's terminology for them. But if we just break it down, is this good or is this evil? It kind of. For me, it makes it more of a black and white issue. Pardon the pun. Or is it.
- [22:06]
Mike Pesca
So I want to know about the base. Give me the timeframe. How did they react with what you described as the Charlottesville rally, where they probably looked down on it as antithetical to their goals. So what was going on then and you know, what was the danger they represented?
- [22:22]
Scott Payne
Well, first of all, and the accelerationist movement belief system, I mean they refer to, they refer to the mass murderers as saints. So you've already said Dylann Roof. Generally when we're out, especially teaching tactics and active shooter stuff, we never mentioned the bad person's name because that's kind of what they wanted. But for this context we're talking about the undercover kind of need to say the name. But they'll say is St Ruth Day and that's the day he murdered those people is Saint Tarrant Day, Saint Brevik Day, Saint Bowers Day. And they've got a saints list, they've got a score list of who's killed the most, who's murdered the most, 77 to 0, whatever, 9 to 0. And what are you going to do to make the board? So that's a, that's some very.
- [23:16]
Mike Pesca
Terrence, the New Zealand shooter, Bowers, the Tree of life shooter. Brevik, the Scandinavian, Norwegian shooter.
- [23:25]
Scott Payne
Yeah, yep, yep. I'm sorry, yeah. Tarrant was Christchurch, Brevik was. I think Brevik has the most numbers. I have the, yeah, I have the slide in one of my power. Yeah. But the accelerationist, what we found with the base was this. I get in, you start gaining trust, you start learning the ideology. And we're out doing all kinds of training, firearms, tactics, hand to hand combat, living off the land, how to make weapons, stuff like that. And they're training and we're talking about. Some of them are just kids and, and they don't have a car, they don't have a job, but they've got an arsenal in their closet. The plate carriers they were wearing was the same plate carrier system that the FBI SWAT team wore. I literally could have taken my FBI rig, my plate carrier belt and all that and just taking the FBI stuff off and walked right in. And it would have been, it would have been good, Kit. So you see that and we started uncovering murder plots and plots where they wanted to go off and incite a race war. And once you get those, especially when we get to the point to where they've already picked this one couple. The cell that I was in, C L L I got a country accent, but the cell that I was in in North Georgia was already looking at murdering a couple who they believe were antifa members. They had already started building a list of left journalists and reporters to start taking out and killing the other group that was up towards the Maryland area. They really were buying into this. There was going to be a huge gun rights rally in Virginia. And because the governor at the time was pretty liberal and anti gun and there was going to be a big rally supporting the second amendment. And their idea was, what if we kick this? What if this is the kickoff to the collapse of society? A couple of bullets start flying, there's hundreds of thousands of people, nobody knows who's shooting at who, everybody starts shooting everybody else. And then to come in and kind of clean up.
- [25:44]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. And do you think you paint the picture the book about the couple in North Georgia, the supposed antifa couple. Do you think but for your involvement they'd have gone through with it and kill those people?
- [25:58]
Scott Payne
Yeah, sure. I mean, because I, I went out with them and the place was being canvassed. The weapon with the silencer was already made. Catch bags were already purchased for the AR15s, which is, you attach it to the machine gun in case you have to use it. Submachine gun in case you have to use it. That way when the brass ejects out of the rifle, that bag catches it. So you don't leave anything, any kind of evidence behind. I mean they were. The details, the planning was pretty. The planning was very detailed to the point of we're going to show up at a campsite, we're going to leave all our electronics, anything there. We're going to leave the campsite, we're going to go to a pay by the hour motel, we're going to scrub ourselves to get any kind of flaky skin washed off completely, wrap ourselves up, tape the gloves to our shirts, tape our pants to our boots. Vaseline over your hair. And even to the point to where one of the guys kind of heading the thing had done research that some people, when they kill somebody for the first time, lose control of their bowels. So he was going to get depends for everybody to wear. So I would say that's a lot of overt acts in furtherance of a killing. And if I, if I, the FBI, the case teams wouldn't have been there. Yeah. Some bad stuff would have happened.
- [27:19]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. Just a note. Scott declined the depends even under scover.
- [27:24]
Scott Payne
I did, I declined them. I didn't say I killed people before, but that, that let them know that I probably did.
- [27:31]
Mike Pesca
Yeah. Don't worry. I know I don't need the pens.
- [27:35]
Podcast Host
I'm pretty sure I don't need this.
- [27:36]
Mike Pesca
His name is Scott Payne. The name of the book is code name Pale Horse. How it went Undercover to expose America's Nazis. And he co wrote it with Michelle shepherd, who hosts the CBC podcast Agent Pale Horse, which is season two of White Hot Hate. It's a really good podcast, a really good book, and I really enjoyed this conversation. So thank you, Scott.
- [27:57]
Scott Payne
Thank you very much, buddy.
- [28:15]
Mike Pesca
And now the spiel. A Turkish student studying at Tufts University in Boston was snatched up by immigration and detained. There's some sound from the surveillance video of that. She is clearly shocked. Okay. Initially, the video of this detention spread around and caused concern, caused outrage. While it seems scary for the frightened young woman to be beset by plainclothes police and spirited away to who knows where, an immigration detention facility. As it turns out, it doesn't tell us anything about the underlying nature of the offense. So I wanted to find out what she did because there is a case to be made, and the administration is making it, against Columbia student Mahmoud Khalil that he is offering some measure of support for a terrorist organization. Let's table how strong the case against Khalil is. I have talked about it. He is affiliated with organizations who have excused and even supported the actions of Hamas. Ok, that is one person. In this case, we have an entirely different person. Her name is Rumesa Oz Turk. Asked about the detention of Ozturk, Secretary of State Marco Rubio laid out the case against her.
- [29:35]
Marco Rubio
She said, it's an F1 visa. I believe we revoked it, and here's why. And I'll say it again, I said it everywhere. Let me be abundantly clear, okay? If you go, apply for a visa right now, anywhere in the world, let me just send this message out. If you apply for a visa to enter the United States and be a student, and you tell us that the reason why you're coming to the United States is not just because you want to write op eds, but because you want to participate in movements that are involved in doing things like vandalizing universities, harassing students, taking over buildings, creating a ruckus, we're not going to give you a visa. If you lie to us and get a visa and then enter the United States and with that visa, participate in that sort of activity, we're going to take away your visa. Now, once you've lost your visa, you're no longer legally in the United States.
- [30:17]
Mike Pesca
Okay? If you're going to vandalize universities, harass students, take over buildings, create a ruckus, your visa might be in jeopardy. Get that? Ozturk didn't do any of that. But listen to what Rubio said more carefully. If you're going to participate in movements that are involved in doing things like vandalizing, harassing, etc. You're open to deportation. Now, there's a lot of subjective interpretation to participating in movements and involved in those things. I mean, does participating in a movement mean that you agree with every one of the points made by other actors in that movement? It seems like a stretch, but in this case, that's not even what we're talking about. If there were video of Ozturk standing alongside protesters who occupied a lawn against campus rules, that'd be one thing. If she were refusing to disperse, that'd be one thing. If she were helping the people who occupied a building on campus or negotiating on behalf of the occupiers, which is what Khalil did, I'd say, you know, you're probably participating in a movement doesn't mean that you deserve deportation, but I can understand why that phrase might apply. This isn't what happened in this case. That's not what she did. Now, maybe some more information will come out about what she did, but as of this reporting, there is one act linking her directly to harassing, vandalizing, occupying protesters, and it's not direct, it's very indirect. It's an op ed in Tufts Daily newspaper. She's one of four signatories to it. I've read a few such letters over the last few years. Some op eds letters to the editors sent to college newspapers, and a lot of them pretty much border on the shameful. Kuad, the Columbia organization that Khalil participated in, has publicly expressed horrible opinions, specifically offering support for a student who said that we should be grateful that he didn't go out and murder Zionists. But Oz Turk, her op ed didn't say that. Didn't say anything like that. It's pretty boring. Mostly pro forma procedural objection to the university not agreeing with a resolution passed by the Student Senate. Yet your blood is already churning over those phrases. Right here is the only part that could possibly consider specifics about supporting Hamas. You'll see what a stretch it is. Quote these resolutions, those student Senate resolutions, were the product of meaningful debate by the Senate and represent a sincere effort to hold Israel accountable for clear violations of international law. Credible accusations against Israel include accounts of deliberate starvation and indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinian civilians and plausible genocide. Now, I, Mike Pesky here ending the quote, do not believe Israel committed clear violations of international law. Well, there is some body of international law about the settlers in the west bank where most people most signatories to that law would say yes, of course they have violated the law. But the thing about international law is you need the specific countries to sign on to it. And Israel never did in the United States in the case of say, the ICC never did. So that's important. Anyway, like I said, it's a fairly pro forma statement of international sentiment and it doesn't in any way support Hamas and the rest of it. To go over every single phrase, I, Mike Pasco do not think that Israel deliberately starved the Palestinians. But the op ed doesn't technically even allege that it has two qualifiers in between Israel starved Gazans. It says there are credible accusations that include accounts of starvation. Sidney McCain made one of those accusations. I think Sidney McCain is wrong, but she gets to stay in this country, and not just because she's a citizen and the wife of a former senator, but because there's really nothing actionable about that belief. As to the credible accusations of plausible genocide or slaughter, again, I don't think they're credible. I don't think it's plausible. But reasonable people can disagree plenty do. You can read some very fair minded reporting about the situation with food or how indiscriminate verse proportional bombing is. I happen to think that that is an incorrect way to describe what's going on in Israel. I disagree with it. I'd have not voted for those student resolutions. But there is nothing in there about Hamas or the goals of Hamas or the actions of Hamas. There's nothing inconsistent with the sentiment that what Hamas did was terrible, but the Israelis have gone too far in response. The idea should not get you deported even if you're on a visa. Even if you said it on the way to getting a visa. Even if during your application process they were processing you and said hey, how do you think Israel's acting in response to the attacks of October 7th? And you said a little too far. Unless something else surfaces. This seems to me to be a wild overreach far worse than Mahmoud Khalil. In fact, I've been waiting for something else beside the op ed to surface. Surface. This can't be it. Even in the face of Trumpist extremism. This can't be the basis for what Marco Rubio is asserting that this person's words or beliefs contradict US Foreign policy. I know that the Trump administration is taking great glee in the fuck around and find out stance towards anti Israel protesters, but this woman ain't it not Ramisa Oz Turk not for that op ed and only that op ed. The thing they think they're warning those who fuck around, warning those who engage in pro Hamas sentiment. That is not in evidence here. The thing they really are fucking with, or something like any vestige of free speech or free thought or any kind of civil liberties in America, which is what America has always stood for, that is what I think they are fucking with. Have they gone too far? I think so. We'll need a little bit of time to find out. And that's it for today's show. Corey Wara produces the gist. Michelle Pesca is the CBSO of Peachfish Productions. Umpru Jeepuru dupru thanks for listening.