While Wicked, Trump Is Not Defying Gravity

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Gist – "While Wicked, Trump Is Not Defying Gravity"

Episode Information

• Title: While Wicked, Trump Is Not Defying Gravity
• Host: Mike Pesca
• Author: Peach Fish Productions
• Release Date: March 11, 2025
• Description: In this episode, Mike Pesca delves into the interplay between political actions and economic realities, particularly focusing on Donald Trump's impact on the American economy. Joined by Ellie Reeve, author of Blackpilled, they explore the resurgence of extremist ideologies, the potency of online radical groups, and the chilling effects of anti-Semitic policies on free speech.

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Economic Signals and the Trump Administration

Mike Pesca’s Opening Remarks

Mike Pesca begins the episode by expressing his concerns over the declining stock indices, attributing this downturn to Donald Trump's unwavering commitment to policies that are widely perceived as detrimental to the American economy. Pesca emphasizes the rational behavior of the market as a positive sign amidst political turmoil.

Notable Quote:

"I like the fact that there is no cognitive dissonance at play, it is not confusing why these indices are down."
— Mike Pesca, 00:02:30

Pesca underscores the importance of gravity in political and economic actions, suggesting that Trump’s inability to adjust his strategies in response to market signals exemplifies a disregard for practical outcomes. He draws parallels between Trump's steadfastness and the natural laws of physics, advocating for a political landscape that acknowledges predictable consequences of policy decisions.

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Discussion with Ellie Reeve: Extremism and Online Radicalization

Introduction to Ellie Reeve

Pesca introduces Ellie Reeve, author of Blackpilled, who provides a harrowing account of witnessing extremist activities firsthand. Reeve recounts her experience in Charlottesville, Virginia, during the Unite the Right rally—a pivotal moment that highlighted the real-world manifestations of online radical ideologies.

Charlottesville Rally Insights

Reeve describes the atmosphere of the rally, detailing how online alt-right and neo-Nazi groups took to the streets with fervor:

Notable Quote:

"They were hooting and hollering like, I guess like a football game. You can feel when you're in a mob like that, you can really physically feel people's emotions."
— Ellie Reeve, 00:09:27

She narrates being pulled into a van by White Nationalist leader Chris Cantwell, capturing the unsettling reality of extremist camaraderie and the challenges of covering such volatile events as a journalist.

The Potency of Extremist Groups

The conversation shifts to the influence and danger posed by these groups. Reeve argues that while individual leaders may wane, the mainstreaming of extremist ideologies poses a significant threat:

Notable Quote:

"The danger lies in how mainstream it's become. The individual leaders have mostly fallen off and are complaining at the margins that MAGA has stolen all their ideas."
— Ellie Reeve, 00:19:12

Reeve highlights the seamless integration of extremist slogans into mainstream political discourse, citing phrases like "Import the Third World, Become the Third World" propagated by figures associated with the MAGA movement. She underscores the normalization of previously taboo concepts, such as eugenics and anti-Semitic rhetoric, within broader political narratives.

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The Case of Mahmoud Khalil: Immigration and Anti-Semitism

Detention Under AN Act

Pesca transitions to discuss Mahmoud Khalil, a Columbia University graduate detained and deported under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) due to his alleged anti-Semitic activities. Khalil’s involvement with QAD (Columbia University Apartheid Divest), an organization with pro-Hamas sentiments, became the basis for his deportation.

Legal Justifications and Contradictions

Pesca scrutinizes the legal framework used to detain Khalil, questioning the alignment between U.S. foreign policy and domestic immigration practices:

Notable Quote:

"Rubio's assertion lies in the fact that the US has a foreign policy opposing anti Semitism. Therefore, it has to have the same domestic policy."
— Mike Pesca, 00:25:03

He argues that while holding abhorrent opinions is permissible under U.S. law, actions that cross into threats or violence are not protected. Pesca critiques the broad application of terms like "pro terrorist" and "anti American," suggesting that they are often misused to justify punitive measures against individuals based on ideologies rather than actions.

Chilling Effects on Free Speech

The discussion delves into the implications of such deportations on free speech, particularly for Jewish communities facing anti-Semitic harassment on campuses:

Notable Quote:

"We want the people who are doing it to be scared. We want them to be frightened if they are foreigners, that they are going to be deported..."
— John Podhoretz, 00:35:00

Podhoretz, featured towards the end of the episode, argues that strict immigration enforcement against anti-Semitic individuals serves as a deterrent, albeit raising concerns about the balance between security and freedom of expression.

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Resonance and the Escalation of Political Violence

Physics Analogy: Resonance Leading to Destruction

Reeve introduces an analogy from physics to describe the escalating cycle of political violence:

Notable Quote:

"This oscillation, it gets wider and wider, the back and forth and back and forth... until everything shakes itself apart."
— Ellie Reeve, 00:23:42

She likens the ongoing tit-for-tat between extremist groups and their opponents to the resonance phenomenon, where small provocations can lead to increasingly destructive outcomes. Reeve warns that both far-right and left-wing reactions contribute to a volatile and potentially explosive political environment.

Impact of Extremist Actions

Pesca and Reeve debate whether the tangible actions of extremist groups or the reactions they provoke present a greater threat to societal stability:

Notable Quote:

"The danger is in the people in power taking on these ideas that I think are quite dangerous and putting them into reality."
— Ellie Reeve, 00:24:30

Reeve emphasizes that the enactment of extremist policies and ideologies by those in authority can have dire consequences, reinforcing the necessity for principled governance over retaliatory measures.

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Conclusion: Principles Over Revenge

Mike Pesca’s Final Reflections

Pesca wraps up the episode by advocating for a principled approach to combating extremism, rather than a cycle of retaliation:

Notable Quote:

"It shouldn't be an eye for an eye. It should be meeting thuggery with enlightenment."
— Mike Pesca, 00:25:47

He stresses the importance of upholding Enlightenment values such as free speech and rational discourse, even when facing extremist threats. Pesca challenges listeners to consider the long-term implications of their responses to political violence and hatred.

Call to Action

The episode concludes with Pesca promoting additional content available through Pesca Plus, encouraging listeners to subscribe for extended interviews and in-depth discussions on topics like those covered in this episode.

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Key Takeaways

• Economic Rationality: The stock market's reaction to Trump's policies reflects a broader acceptance of economic realities over political dogma.

• Mainstream Extremism: Online extremist groups have successfully normalized harmful ideologies, seamlessly integrating them into mainstream political discourse.

• Legal and Ethical Dilemmas: The detention of individuals like Mahmoud Khalil underlines the complexities of balancing national security with free speech and immigration policies.

• Cycle of Violence: The ongoing tit-for-tat between extremist groups and their opponents risks escalating political violence, akin to resonant oscillations leading to structural failure.

• Principled Response: Upholding Enlightenment values and promoting rational discourse are essential in countering extremism without perpetuating cycles of retaliation.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Mike Pesca (00:02:30): “I like the fact that there is no cognitive dissonance at play, it is not confusing why these indices are down.”

• Ellie Reeve (00:09:27): “They were hooting and hollering like, I guess like a football game. You can feel when you're in a mob like that, you can really physically feel people's emotions.”

• Ellie Reeve (00:19:12): “The danger lies in how mainstream it's become. The individual leaders have mostly fallen off and are complaining at the margins that MAGA has stolen all their ideas.”

• Mike Pesca (00:25:03): “Rubio's assertion lies in the fact that the US has a foreign policy opposing anti Semitism. Therefore, it has to have the same domestic policy.”

• John Podhoretz (00:35:00): “We want the people who are doing it to be scared. We want them to be frightened if they are foreigners, that they are going to be deported...”

• Ellie Reeve (00:23:42): “This oscillation, it gets wider and wider, the back and forth and back and forth... until everything shakes itself apart.”

• Mike Pesca (00:25:47): “It shouldn't be an eye for an eye. It should be meeting thuggery with enlightenment.”

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Conclusion

In "While Wicked, Trump Is Not Defying Gravity," Mike Pesca and Ellie Reeve offer a nuanced exploration of the intersection between political steadfastness, economic signals, and the resurgence of extremist ideologies. The episode underscores the importance of adhering to principled responses in the face of polarizing political actions, advocating for enlightenment and rational discourse over cycles of retaliation and violence.

Transcript

[Ellie Reeve]

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[Mike Pesca]

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Virtues of Pesca Plus. Now. Full disclosure, I I am Peska and have been accused of being a little plus. But if you subscribe and you do so by going to subscribe mike pesca.com you get all sorts of bonus features. We do extended interviews. We have a book club every other month. We had an amazing live event. I don't know if we'll ever replicate this, but it was a soiree plus a discussion with members of the Fifth Column and it's free for everyone who is a Pesca plus member. Now is the best time to get your membership approved. I have to tell you the approval process you're going to skate through. I know this because as I said before, I am the titular Pesca of Pesca plus. And of course like all of our subscription services, all the podcasts will be ad free but with Pesca plus oh so much more. Subscribe. Mike Pesca the It's Tuesday, March 11, 2025 from Peach Fish Productions. It's the gist. I'm Mike Pesca the Dow as of my speaking down a little S P down a little. All the indices down a little. And I'm not thrilled about that. But I am in a way heartened. I like the fact that there is no cognitive dissonance at play, it is not confusing why these indices are down. When Donald Trump commits to a proposal and does not back off, and the entire world, the entire non Peter Navarro world, knows that this policy would be bad for the American economy, it is in a way, a good thing that the American economy behaves rationally and that those signals, and I do love the price signals inherent in capitalism, I think it's my favorite thing about capitalism. But the price signals say to Donald Trump and those who support him, and he's a guy who understands the price signals of the stock market, and when they say to him, this is not working out well, it is all of a piece with my hope and my belief that that political, economic, monetary, gravity still applies. And what we need in this moment from the Trump administration reacting to the Trump administration, in fact acting to curtail the Trump administration, is just the assertion of gravity. If gravity applies. If Donald Trump is made to understand that your inputs will have predictable outputs and that you, by force of will, are simply lying about things, cannot change reality. We're going to get a much better future than we would if Donald Trump goes around believing that I could say anything and create my own reality. In the last couple of days, we have seen not just from the stock market, but from other outcomes. We have seen some indications that political reality still exists and that Donald Trump understands it. Here's another prime example. Elon Musk was behaving like a lunatic. And for a while you questioned, well, will the lunacy be rewarded? Will it be seen as something other than lunacy? Will the edict to own the libs carry the day to such a degree that Musk will be empowered to do anything? And then he jumped around and didn't wear a suit and picked up a chainsaw. And eventually, the New York Times broke the story of a tense Oval Office meeting where Donald Trump sat there, as Marco Rubio essentially told Elon Musk, Elon. And he said specifics. But what he really said is gravity still applies. What you're doing is hurting this agency, and it's actually hurting this government. Sean Duffy, Secretary of Transportation, also took part in that. And so these indications that there is still such a thing as gravity, that Donald Trump will still be hurt by doing unpopular things and will still be rewarded for doing popular things that have an effect that most people say, oh, that's good for my life, as opposed to, oh, that's bad for my life. It's all actually quite heartening as my 401k and yours declines. This is the kind of heartening that we can best hope for during the administration of Donald Trump. And this all assumes that by the time this comes out, the markets won't have a gigantic upswing and Marco Rubio won't be fired. On the show today, I shall spiel about Khalil principles versus the frustration and need for revenge in the supposed or proposed in the proposed deportation of a Columbia student. But first, Ellie Reeve is back. She is the author of Blackpilled and we just left off in our talk with the former Vice and current CNN correspondent. She is in Charlottesville, Virginia. The rally, the Tiki Torch white nationalist rally is about to occur. Wouldn't you know it? Ell Reeve is about to be pulled into the neo Nazi van. Ellie Reeve up next. Elevating my style used to mean well. Spending way too much money and way too much time figuring out what website. Then when you go you say just the sweater look good. 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[Mike Pesca]

We're joined once more by Ellie Reeve. She is the author of Black Pill. How I witnessed the darkest corners of the Internet come to life, Poison society, and capture American politics. Yesterday we talked with the current CNN and former Vice correspondent about the first clause in that subtitle, the darkest corners of the Internet, and how she chronicled them. Now we're talking about the come to life part. So Elie was in Charlottesville, Virginia, on the eve of the Unite the Right march. And? Well, you tell me, Ali, the people involved in the march, these mostly theretofore online alt right, neo Nazis, they were at the time pretty happy with how it was going. Right.

[Ellie Reeve]

They loved it. I mean, they were hooting and hollering like, I guess like a football game. You can feel when you're in a mob like that, you can really physically feel people's emotions. It like an electric current through the crowd.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And they pull you into their van and they. They brag about everything they've done. What's that scene like?

[Ellie Reeve]

Yeah, the. There had been. So they were supposed to have this march, but there were so many big fist fights before it even started that the government, the governor, declared a state of emergency, so it got shut down. So they're walking to another park to restage just through the town. It's like they owned the town. Like, they had totally taken over. And they had organized white vans as VIP vehicles to carry people around. So the guy I was following was Chris Cantwell. And they're like, cantwell, go get in the van. And this one pulls up as we're walking by it. So he runs off. So we just decided to chase after him. And so he got in the van. So he just got in after him. And they're all pretty shocked by that. They're like, what the fuck? Fucking Vice got in the van. Vice got in the van.

[Mike Pesca]

Why do they have New York accents?

[Ellie Reeve]

Well, the one guy's from Long Island.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, really? Which one?

[Ellie Reeve]

Cantwell.

[Mike Pesca]

Oh, I didn't know Cantwell's from Long Island. Yeah, he had to leave in order to get his AR15 collection.

[Ellie Reeve]

That's right, because he had a felony and he couldn't own a firearm. So I was afraid they were going to kick us out, but I wasn't going to leave of my own volition. And they're like, fighting. And then there's this old dude behind us named. He went by asmodor he worked for the Daily Stormer. He wanted some attention. So I started interviewing them and they like, they're going to show deference to this like older elder statesman of neo Nazism.

[Mike Pesca]

Yes. And you show that you knew him, Right. You called him Asmodor. And that alone was the magic word that unlocked things. There's a lot in the book about your tactics, about how to not getting good, but how to get them to talk to you because you have to, you have to suffer through a lot of insults and then. And on the back end they make memes about you and there's like constant harassment. But they will talk to you and they will, would you say, trust you or view you as a vector to get their word out?

[Ellie Reeve]

I think what the nicer ones, the more polite ones have said to me is that I know my shit.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ellie Reeve]

And a lot of people don't. And so, and at this point, I've known some of them so long, it's like they accept my presence. Not all of them will talk to me. I mean, I've had people just straight scream racial slurs at me over and over and over till I hung up the phone. But yeah, it's like they know that I know everything that happened. I mean, at this point they've, I've spent so many hours on the phone with them. Like, like I, I know their divorces, their affairs, their drug addictions, their alcohol abuse.

[Mike Pesca]

Like, and by the way, their affairs, I mean, two of the main guys from Charlottesville were, I can't trace the family tree, but they were each having, well, one was having an affair with the other spouse, but the other one's spouse was the mother. One of them. And so they.

[Ellie Reeve]

The stepmother.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, so they each, each were each other's like stepsons or something. Yeah, it's kind of crazy.

[Ellie Reeve]

Okay, this guy.

[Mike Pesca]

And this isn't like deep. Not to be, not to trade in pure stereotypes, but these two guys weren't like deep hillbilly folk. One went to Towson State and the other was.

[Ellie Reeve]

They're middle class. Yeah, they're middle class there and probably.

[Mike Pesca]

Higher IQ than average.

[Ellie Reeve]

Oh, they showed me their scores on the military entrance test. Yes, they are very. Their IQ is really important to them, but yes, one had become a stepfather to an 11 year old when he was 21 and 10 years later he's like a made man in the white nationalist movement. There's this up and comer named Mad Heimbach. They start working together. Heimbach is the same age as his stepdaughter so Heimbach and the stepdaughter get married. So therefore, the best friend also becomes the guy's technical stepfather.

[Mike Pesca]

So Charlottesville, you witness all the violence. You witness the chance. They are pretty proud of it. They brag about all they've done. A protester is run over in a car. Did not realize this until I read the book. There was a lot of chatter online about how that would be legal. It was a misunderstanding of a law that was actually proposed in the North Carolina State legislature to essentially allow the running over of a protester who blocked a road.

[Ellie Reeve]

Right.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Ellie Reeve]

Well, it's an illustration of, like, that between joke and real is not so strong. It's not so clear. So James Alex Fields, who ran over Heather Heyer, well, he. Who drove his car into the crowd. He had shared memes of a car plowing through protesters that said, like, you've got a right to protest, but get out of my way. Like, I'm late to work.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Ellie Reeve]

So they had joked repeatedly about whether it was legal to run over protest.

[Mike Pesca]

But they thought it were. I gleaned from your book that they maybe thought it actually was because that was actually proposed by Republicans in the Carolina. North Carolina Carolina state.

[Ellie Reeve]

One person had raised that. He went by Tyrone in the Discord servers. He said it was like asking, like, is this legal? And no one really batted him down.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. So they were proud of themselves at the moment. They were quite happy. Then they started getting arrested. Did they blame you? Did they use any of your footage in court? Was there blowback at you after they started suffering consequences and jail terms?

[Ellie Reeve]

Not as many as you would expect got arrested, but they ended up having civil. A huge civil lawsuit. That was a problem. But more importantly, they got kicked off of social media and financial services.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, Cantwell went to jail. Right?

[Ellie Reeve]

Cantwell went to jail because he had been on camera macing someone. So someone pressed charges for that. He heard there was a warrant out for his arrest. He fled to North Carolina, interviewed him in the hotel in a room full of guns. So once, as that case was proceeding, he became very convinced that I had exculpatory video that proved that. That actually he was the victim. Because this is the night of the torch March. There's like 600 Nazis. They're all, like, marching with these torches. They encircle a couple dozen students. Melee ensues. These kids get beat up. Even I would say to Carol, like, you outnumbered those students 10 to 1. He's like, Nah, it's more like 20 to 1. Yeah, but I'm like, but you still think you're the victim? He's like, yeah, absolutely. Like, we were attacked. So he has this very strong victim complex. And so he became convinced that I. My unaired footage would prove that he had been attacked wrongfully and so that he was only macing people in self defense. But I had no such video. Right, but so that did lead to quite a bit of harassment of me for a little while. And they didn't talk to me. The leaders were afraid to talk to me publicly for a little while. And they would say to me like, I can't speak to you publicly because my followers would freak out. They were afraid of their own followers.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. Well, that makes sense. When you went from Vice to cnn, did it hurt your access with this group?

[Ellie Reeve]

Um, no, but in the ones I knew already know, but generally, yes. CNN makes access very difficult to interview. Anyone on the right. Yeah, anyone. It's like sometimes it's like saying, boo, I'm a demon, like when I say I'm from cnn.

[Mike Pesca]

But with Vice was like, oh, could I see your tattoos?

[Ellie Reeve]

What did they say exactly? Vice has this reputation of being like, we're like, out partying.

[Mike Pesca]

Well, what about the fact that Gavin McGinnis founded it? Did that help? To this day or to the day.

[Ellie Reeve]

You were there, he never really mentioned that he had left in 2008, and there was kind of like, there was an appearance of unspoken beef with Vice. They started to see Vice as like the pinnacle of like, woke, trans, whatever.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Ellie Reeve]

So in that way.

[Mike Pesca]

And did they get that by actually reading Vice? I mean, there is some reasonable person could come to a similar conclusion without being a neo Nazi.

[Ellie Reeve]

Right. Like, they would see like, sort of absurd stories about sex and say that, like, we were promoting deviant, like promiscuity.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. Deviants. That wasn't their deviance.

[Ellie Reeve]

That wasn't their deviance. Right. Like, like incels would pull up these videos and show them to me and like, I, you know, they would be articles I'd never seen before and I'd say like, oh, that's funny.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Ellie Reeve]

But, yeah, I don't know. I didn't do that one. Sorry.

[Mike Pesca]

Now, here's why I'm actually most interested in you and the story and what I want to know and what I want to get from your. From your understanding, your analysis. I want to be able to put this all in context. The people are fascinating. Figuring out how they came such prominence is fascinating. I think it was probably an inevitable consequence of online culture and, you know, the deep rot within elements of our society. But the question that I keep coming back to is how dangerous are they? They are. They're not small. There are not few of them. I was just at a conference in D.C. and Enrico Therio showed up, and that was not pleasant. Then they called in some bomb threats. But I do wonder when you compare them to other, either radical groups in our country or, you know, terrorist groups or terrorist cells, I wonder. And I know that Christopher Wray said domestic extremists, which is a broad category, way beyond 4chan, was the biggest threat. How much damage could these Richard Spencer, the guys, or whoever replaced them who pulled off the Charlottesville rally, How much damage can they do to America, do you think? How potent are they?

[Ellie Reeve]

I think the danger lies in how mainstream it's become. The individual leaders have mostly fallen off and are complaining at the margins that MAGA has stolen all their ideas. Like, I listened to this podcast where Spencer and another guy are talking about, you know, we invented liking Russia.

[Mike Pesca]

You know, well, that's a stupid statement, right?

[Ellie Reeve]

I mean, well, now they think it's wrong. I mean, Spencer, he's gone all the way around. Yeah. That guy just needs attention.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah.

[Ellie Reeve]

Yeah.

[Mike Pesca]

But Pat Buchanan liked Russia way before the Internet was invented, but liked white strongmen before the Internet was invented, and then wound up liking Putin himself.

[Ellie Reeve]

But Pat Buchanan was a goof.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. These guys aren't. Why aren't these guys? Because they beat someone.

[Ellie Reeve]

I mean, Tarrio got pardoned by the President of the United States. Like, that's my question. Like, where would you put Tario? Would you say he's alt, right? Like these Charlottesville guys because Tario was at Charlottesville, or would you put him solidly in maga?

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, well, these circles are concentric.

[Ellie Reeve]

I know that's the. That's the danger.

[Mike Pesca]

But I wonder, without all of this nonsense going on and real world nonsense that killed a person, but killed a person and caused many people's lives to be worse off than they would have otherwise. Like, if that didn't exist. And I think it was going to exist. Yeah, well, you could never know. But I find it hard to think we wouldn't have had almost entirely the MAGA phenomenon. It was about so much more than spreading a couple memes or liking Russia.

[Ellie Reeve]

Well, they. I mean, they were really the online engine behind Trump in 2016. Teen and they. I mean, they were like the test market. Like, the first person who ever sent me a picture of Drag Queen Story Hour was a fascist troll in 2017, like, years and Years before that became a big Fox News fixation, a white nationalist phrase, import the third world become. The third world has become like now there's mainstream MAGA people saying it, like Donald Trump Jr. Charlie Kirk.

[Mike Pesca]

Right.

[Ellie Reeve]

And the idea is that that's true.

[Mike Pesca]

I mean, just we invented liking Russia. That's a phrase that. Let's be totally amoral about it. You could see the appeal of that phrase, if that's what you believe. Import the third world, become the third world. Nice people who are raised well, don't even say third world. But that's something that Donald Trump Jr. Is going to be drawn to if he hears it. Maybe he wouldn't have heard it or whoever invented it wouldn't have gotten the word out without four chan. But okay, they gave him a couple of phrases, they gave him a few slogans early on. They were big backers and they had overlapping interests or hatred. Like that's all true. Yeah. I just wonder about the real potency. And I'll tell you why I'm wondering. Well, everyone wonders about it. But you also write about antifa, right? And you go to Portland and you chronicle that. There are elements of antifa that of course are dangerous. And there is an antifa inspired reaction, like with Chaz, which is without the one in Seattle. Chaz. And what is the Chaz stand for?

[Ellie Reeve]

The Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. Capitol Hill being a neighborhood there.

[Mike Pesca]

Right. So someone spray paints Chaz and then.

[Ellie Reeve]

People, it becomes a meme on Twitter.

[Mike Pesca]

So the.

[Ellie Reeve]

It becomes real.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah, the ironic becomes real. And that's from the left. That's the left causing violence based on what was imagined. But isn't the left's anger and reaction or not the left antifa? But isn't their anger and reaction based on getting really geeked up about the danger of the alt right? Isn't this essentially an arms race? So is the more dangerous thing what. This is a huge long question, but here's where I'm getting at. Is the most dangerous thing what Richard Spencer and those of his ill can actually do, which include, you know, a dead body in Charlottesville and other people beat up, Is that the most dangerous or is the danger the reaction to it, which includes more than one dead body like Chaz, they. A few people died. Right. And there was one in Louisville. And so I'm worried more about the arms race and the threat and the perception of threat than the actual threat or I wonder about it. I don't know what you think, though.

[Ellie Reeve]

Oh, it's, you know, it's interesting. You Say that like while I was writing this book, I got really obsessed with this thing in physics, like resonance, you know, like those bridges where the, the way it's built is slightly off and so the natural resonance of materials cause it to whip itself until it falls apart.

[Mike Pesca]

Tacoma Narrows Bridge. I think this happens.

[Ellie Reeve]

The Tacoma Narrows Bridge, right? And you can go, the Wikipedia has really amazing gifs of this. But like this oscillation, it gets wider and wider, the back and forth and back and forth. The reaction becomes bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until everything shakes itself apart. Is kind of how I've been thinking of it. But again, like I, I think the danger is in the people in power taking on these ideas that I think are quite dangerous and putting them into reality. Like them inventing, liking Russia is having real world consequences in Ukraine. Or like Donald Trump Jr. Said, import the third world, become the third world. In the context of this debate over whether Haitians were eating cats and dogs in Ohio.

[Mike Pesca]

Not a debate.

[Ellie Reeve]

Right, Not a debate. This like fake story. Yes, but people believed it. And the thing that Donald Trump Jr. Said around that was about, you know, it's not even racist. Just look at the native IQ there, right? Like getting like sort of like there's been had been that hard barrier for eugenics, like even if there's like racial dog whistles, like eugenics was taboo. And now I see that like this IQ stuff working its way back in. And I think that's also extremely dangerous.

[Mike Pesca]

The other part of this that I wonder and worry about is the average Democrat who watches a lot of MSNBC and every time there is a right wing extremist, like shooting up an FBI office in Cincinnati through extremely thick glass, that isn't going to work. But they wind up shooting him in a field. But any time that there's real violence, the whiff of violence, a someone busted online for being part of a 4chan group. The message, message is that the right or Republicans are armed and you should, you are correct in feeling endangered. And that has, I think an extremely caustic effect not just on the country, but on whatever MSNBC viewers are left.

[Ellie Reeve]

I understand that. I mean like even the white nationalists were offended by Jan6. They say, like, yeah, we're more ideologically radical, but they were much more tactically radical. And that was scary to them that people would take up arms to try to stop an election which, you know, your Richard Spencers had never even fantasized about doing. That's the stuff that I think is dangerous. Like, like there are these things that like these guys would say so flippant, like liberally because it was so impossible for them. Like Spencer, you know, they would campaign on like we have free speech rights to do this. Like we should be allowed to go on all these campuses without anyone protesting us and say what we want to say for free speech. But then they'd be joking around. There's a clip of this on YouTube somewhere. Or they're like, yeah, but when we're in power, is there a First Amendment? And they're like, no, of course not.

[Mike Pesca]

Yeah. And we're seeing vestiges of that actually in place.

[Ellie Reeve]

Yeah, that's that too. That is the stuff that's more dangerous to me. Like the, the actual changes to the system. Like, no, like individual incels. You know, you have a very low chance of being shot by one.

[Mike Pesca]

And guess what? Good news, this is one of those Pesca plus bonus material situations. Ellie and I kept talking. She had some good insights about the troll mentality just taking over politics and really discourse. Charlie Kirk gets mentioned, by the way. To subscribe to Pesca plus, go to subscribe.mikepeska.com so many features, including more of Ellie Reeves. Subscribe.mikepeska.Com At Patron, we craft our tequila using high quality natural ingredients without additives. No sweeteners, no extracts, no secrets. In fact, Patron's secret ingredient is that we have no secret ingredients, just 100 additive free tequila made with 100 Weber Blue Agave Water and Time Patron 100 additive free tequila. Visit patrontequila.com to learn more. The perfect way to enjoy Patron is responsibly Copyright 2025, imported by Patron Spirits Company Coral Gables, Florida Tequila 40% ABV.

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And now the spiel. Recent Columbia graduate Mahmoud Khalil has been detained and shipped off to ICE's LaSalle Detention Center. In general Louisiana. The Syrian born ethnically Palestinian Khalil was a student leader of many of the protests and negotiations between Columbia University and anti Israel Anti Zionist student protesters. The theory of the detention is interesting, does not hinge on the fact that Khalil led a group whose members expressed anti Zionist, but at times pro Hamas sentiments. So let's just document that part of it. The writings of the group, sort of an anti Zionist umbrella organization, Qad, which stands for Columbia University Apartheid Divest. Their writings include lots of pro Hamas sentiments. I read one yesterday praising Hamas as a member of the Axis of Resistance, a laudable anti imperialist effective force. They also wrote in the same newsletter, didn't even have to reach for a second newsletter. They wrote, quote, assessing Hamas and Ansar Allah as principally progressive forces in the anti imperialist struggle does not mean that one has to agree with every aspect of the nature of these forces or that they have always been or always will be principally progressive. These other aspects are secondary to the issue at hand, which is their role in carrying out a national liberation war against the oppressors. Okay, that's just writing. Here's something else they did. There was a member or an ally of Kuad who said, quite notably, be grateful that I'm not just going out and murdering Zionists. Kuad issued an apology in that member's name and then they took it back. They pointedly retracted the apology, stating, quote, we support liberation by any means necessary, including armed resistance in the face of violence from the oppressor, equipped with the most lethal military force on the planet, where you've exhausted all peaceful means of resolution, violence is the only path forward. This was the organization that Khalil was negotiating on behalf of. This is why Donald Trump accused him of engaging in, quote, pro terrorist, anti Semitic and anti American activity. Yeah, but here's the thing. Green card holders can in fact be anti Semitic. I bet several are. But also. That's allowed. That's allowed. If that's your opinion. Anti Semitic actions, if they are attacks or threats on Jewish people, well, those aren't opinions. But an American green card holder can have that opinion. It's an odious opinion. But the rules of America say you, residents, even noncitizens, may hold bad opinions and green card holders can be anti American. Anyway, that phrase is a moving target. Now, you can't be pro terrorist or you can act in a pro terrorist way, but the other sentiment is actually protected, which in a way is the most pro American sentiment that I could think of. The theory that Khalil is being detained under, and by the way, a judge has ordered the Trump administration not to deport him. It's not support for terrorism, it's A provision of the Immigration and Nationality Act. This was cited by Secretary of State Marco Rubio. Quote, any alien whose presence or activities in the United States the Secretary of State has reasonable ground to believe would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States is deportable. It is a contradiction of US Foreign policy that allows Rubio to deport Khalil. Says Rubio, now I know a bunch of Palestinian, pro Palestinian people hearing this are thinking, great, the US Is shitty to Palestinians abroad. Now we have to be cruel to them at home. But historically, the power stemmed from the 1952 McCarran Walter act, which was enacted over the veto of Harry S. Truman and much of the Jewish community who were worried that it would be used to deport Jews accused of having Communist sympathies during the period of McCarthyism. Rubio's assertion lies in the fact that the US has a foreign policy opposing anti Semitism. Therefore, it has to have the same domestic policy. If it had a policy to allow anti Semitism on its shores among its residents, that would be a contradiction. Khalil is contradicting US Foreign policy in its anti Semitism efforts. Okay, but you know, I took in some Ukrainian refugees a few years ago. Now do I have to find a family of Russian refugees to shelter? Because I'll tell you, I am not going to do it unless they're oligarchs and they let me ride the yacht or if they could catch it, it. We do need a cat sitter this weekend. And I am serious about that. The other day, by the way, I did see a flag of Bhutan and I recognized that, hey, that's a dragon orange brown. That's a flag of Bhutan. Oh, no. The United States foreign policy does not recognize Bhutan. Seriously. We don't. We like Bhutan. We just have no formal embassies. Okay, that's all getting a little crazy. The policy of the government domestically is of course, a far more malleable thing than US Foreign policy, even if each has turned fickle lately. For one thing, domestically we are governed by the Constitution. And indeed, it would be quite stupid and a poor strategy to extend constitutional protections to all those we interact with abroad. And I do know that it is extremely frustrating to see claims of harm and safety get taken so seriously on college campuses for many years in the context of every ethnicity other than Jews. Colombia's own Anti Semitism Task force found the school's DEI apparatus basically did not consider anti Semitism part of its remit. And so I absolutely understand the desire to even the playing field of who gets these protections in the face of anti Zionist and often anti Semitic protesters harassing Jewish students. But it's still America. So when I heard John Pod Horowitz on the Commentary podcast, I understood where he was coming from. But I put it in the category of revenge, not proper policy.

[John Podhoretz]

This is going to have a chilling effect on speech. The. Of course these protests are a form of speech, and this will have a chilling effect on them. Yeah, we want this to be a chilling effect. We want this to stop. We Jews in the United States want the anti Semitic activity on college campuses to stop. We want the people who are doing it to be scared. We want them to be frightened if they are foreigners, that they are going to be deported and never allowed back in this country. And we want, if they are American citizens and do things that violate the law, to fear that the law will come down on them like a ton of bricks. That is what has happened over the last 16 months is that we have been sent on the run and now it appears that somebody has our back. And it is time for those people for whom people have been bending over backwards to respect their rights, or what is deemed to be their rights, to have the fear in their bellies that a Jewish kid with a kippah has when he walks across the UCLA campus.

[Mike Pesca]

Understandable. But I can't call it principled. They're not my principles. I ask why does every turn of the screw have to be a tightening, a further tightening? Why does every punishment or injustice have to be met with some version of injustice in the other direction? It shouldn't be an eye for an eye. It should be meeting thuggery with enlightenment. And by the way, if a plank of your platform is that you are the high minded or principled ones, you have to be principled when it counts, when it's hard, when it hurts. I hear arguments that it's an aspect of the Jewish character, sometimes the Israeli character, to be praised and emulated. That Jews understand the Western concept of free speech or dissent in ways their enemies might not. Just ask all members of the media in every country surrounding Israel, not free media, if the critique is that it's wrong to see the world only in the form of oppressor and oppressed. When you get the chance to jail a political enemy, you have to think very hard before you take it. The oppressor and oppressed mindset dictates it must be done. The Enlightenment mindset would say, that's not how we do it. And it shouldn't be. Not in the United States, where Mahmoud Khalil is still a resident, which doesn't thrill me, but would greatly distress me if my country were to take that status away, especially for the reasons that have been given. That's it for today's show. The gist is produced by Cory Wara. Michelle Pesca is CBSO of Peach Fish Productions. And we are looking for that cat sitter and Leo Baum. Oh, gotta ask that guy about cat sitting. Does the internship extend to cat sitting? Improve to Peru. And thanks for listening.

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[Ellie Reeve]

The numbers look good, Brad. You're on mute.

[Mike Pesca]

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