Alan Dershowitz (19:29)

I'm doing great.

Chip Roy (19:30)

How are you?

Glenn Beck (19:32)

I'm good. So did I get this right? You're talking about now that the Supreme Court might start leaning towards security over free speech in the, in the coming years?

Alan Dershowitz (19:44)

Yeah. Look, I pride myself on never. It does. I pride myself on never making predictions based on what I want to happen. That's what Lawrence Tribe does. That's what others on the left do, and that's why they're always wrong. I make predictions based on my analysis of trends. This is not a trend I approve of, but it's a trend I see coming. I see coming in, in the area of defamation. I see it coming in the area of incitement. I think that the Brandenburg decision was written during a time of relative calm, and we weren't seeing the kinds of incitements to violence that we saw that probably led to the burning of Jews in Boulder, Colorado, and the shooting of these two innocent people in Washington D. And other kinds of things. Look, you know, I have a lot of.

Glenn Beck (20:36)

Hang on, hang on just a second. You just said, and I find this amazing that you said, you just said it happened in a, you know, in a time of relative comment. It was 1969 that this case came down to the Supreme Court, if I'm not mistaken, which is not really a calm year. But can you explain what the Brandenburg case is?

Alan Dershowitz (20:56)

Sure, Berg was a Nazi who was making horrible, horrible speeches, but he wasn't inciting anybody directly. And the Nazis in those days had no influence, no power. They weren't getting people to do things. The people who were creating problems then were, during the Vietnam War, people from the left. I represented a lot of them. And I represented people who disrupted the Democratic convention in 1968, the Chicago Seven, and other people like that. And I saw with my own eyes that some of these people who started as disruptors and violent confrontationists and people pushing and shoving and, you know, breaking property and stuff like that ultimately became murderers, like Kathy Boudin, who ended up being responsible for the killing of two policemen, or the weathermen who planted bombs and killed people. And then their leaders became, you know, prominent spokesmen of the left, professors at various places. So I saw that. And what I'm seeing now is a different, different kind of quantity. And what we're seeing it is when with the, you know, globalize the Intifada and Palestine will be free from the river to the sea. Those are calls for violence. And under the current Brandenburg case, they're protected speech. I think they should still be protected speech. But my view, my prediction is that when the next case comes up to the Supreme Court, this Supreme Court, I think they may take a more security oriented point of view and say, wait a minute, the incitement doesn't have to be so direct. It could be a little bit more indirect and let the jury decide that issue. So I'm concerned about that. You know, in my book the Preventive State, I have a whole chapter on free speech and how free speech can sometimes cause violence and. But that it's not proper to deny free speech in order to prevent violence. We have to think of better ways of preventing violence. And in the Preventive State, I come up, I think, with better ways than constraining free speech, because I really, I'm.

Glenn Beck (23:14)

With you on this. This really disturbs me. When I read this article from you yesterday, this story from you yesterday, I needed to talk to you because I'm like, this is horrible. This goes beyond cancel culture. This is now the government being able to come in and say, nope. Yeah, right. That's really bad.

Alan Dershowitz (23:36)

Yeah, look, there are so many preventive mechanisms we use that have effects on free speech. Even deportation. Deportation obviously denies the deported person the right to speak freely in this country. Now, of course, under the Constitution, a citizen has the most free speech rights. A green card holder, second most visa holders, almost no free speech rights. They can be deported if they say things that are contrary to the interests of the United States. They're just guests in the country. And so, you know, I think we're going to see a lot Lots of movement in this area because we're going to see a lot more violence. Let me tell you what happened to me the day before the killings in the District of Columbia, this one Christian boy and Jewish woman who were killed working for the embassy. The day after that, I was getting an honorary degree at a college in Florida. And the security people from the college came up to me and said, we're terrified that there might be a copycat attempt to kill you because you're a prominent spokesman for pro Israel points of view. And so they created a whole security thing around me where they created an escape plan. They had policemen with machine guns and with bulletproof glass to protect me. And I have redoubled my security. And I think we're going to see more copycat crimes. I think that Hamas wants to see violence in the United States. That's their goal, to get more people to kill Jews, Christians and others in the United States. And I think they're probably going to succeed unless there are some preventive steps that are taking. Taking now, the preventive step should not include diminutions of legitimate free speech under the Constitution.

Glenn Beck (25:29)

I tell you, I, you know, I see what the government is doing and how AI is, you know, in Silicon Valley is playing a big role with the Pentagon and CIA and everything else. And I am really, really concerned. If there is another big event like a 9 11, I fear Americans are just going to run to that kind of stuff and then we're in a trap that I don't think we get out of.

Alan Dershowitz (25:53)

Yeah, but that's what history shows. And in my book, the Preventive State, I show that there's a common phenomenon. We underreact and we don't prevent. We didn't prevent Pearl harbor, we didn't prevent 9 11, Israel didn't prevent October 7th. Then what happened after we failed to prevent Pearl harbor, we put 110 innocent Japanese Americans in camps in order to prevent them from doing it again. They never would have done it again. We overreacted. After 9 11, we created the Patriot act, which gave the government too much power to prevent a recurrence of that. And, you know, reasonably, we disagree about Israel, but a lot of people think that Israel for failure to prevent October 7th, which they could have done, they had the intelligence, may have overreacted in Gaza. I'm not agreeing with that. I'm just telling you, historically there's a phenomenon it starts with under prediction and ends up with overreaction to the event that was not predicted and prevented. That's one of the thesis of my book.

Glenn Beck (26:56)

So what should we expect and how do we prepare ourselves so we don't go down that road?

Alan Dershowitz (27:05)

Well, first of all, we do a lot more preparation and prevention. We tried desperately to use what the resources are available. I'll give you an example. The young man who burned those people in Boulder, Colorado, he was here illegally. He had over overstayed his visa there. There's nothing wrong with using artificial intelligence and computer technology to keep track of people who are here illegally. And once he overstayed his visa, action could have been taken and maybe this crime could have been prevented. So I think there are preventive steps that are consistent with the Constitution, with free speech that can be taken to avoid the cataclysmic events. I'm going to give you another horrible example that we're working on right now. Should the United States and Israel bomb Iran's nuclear facilities, we know they're planning to create an atomic bomb. And we know that in the 1930s if France and England had prevented Germany from building up its army, they would have saved 50 million lives. But we didn't know it then. And so these are the kinds of preventive decisions. But there's no free lunch. Every preventive decision entails some diminution of liberty. And you know, Benjamin Franklin was correct when he said those who would deny essential liberties to secure a little bit more security deserve neither. But the question is, can we deny a little bit of non essential liberty to prevent major cataclysmic events? I'll give you an example. If before 911 we had arrested 10 people and prevented 911 and four of the people arrested were improperly arrested and spent two months in jail. Improperly, that's probably a trade off. That's worth it.

Glenn Beck (28:57)

What are non essential liberties?

Alan Dershowitz (29:00)

Well, there's a continuum. Obviously free speech is the most essential liberty. Privacy is a matter of degree. And you know, keeping track of people who are here illegally does in some way invade their right of privacy, but in a small way because they really don't have a right to be there at all. Liberty is a continuum and we have to make sure that we don't go after fundamental liberties as I think, look, what could be worse than putting 110,000 Japanese Americans in camps and denying them their right to earn a living. We did that for three years and the Supreme Court with liberal justices, Earl Warren was the governor of California at the time. Hugo Black was on the Supreme Court. They all agreed with that. Only a couple of justices, Justice Jackson didn't agree with It. But Americans were outraged at Pearl harbor as they were outraged at 9, 11. And when you're outraged, you don't think carefully.

Glenn Beck (30:01)

I know. And that is. That's a little terrifying. Just looking at what's coming around the world and then seeing the growth of AI and what can be done, it's a little frightening that we will jump immediately to, yes, we need a super duper Patriot Act.

Alan Dershowitz (30:20)

Yeah, no, I think that's right. We need a super duper Patriot act that denies free speech. That's the first thing. Because people hate free speech. You know, the vast majority of Americans, even though they claim to support the First Amendment, believe in free speech for me, but not for the. I used to when I taught my class on the First Amendment, I would ask students how many people believe free speech for everybody. And everybody would raise their hand. And then I would say, but what about pornography? Well, some hands went down. What about. And then I would do a lot. What about anti Semitism? Some hands would go down. What about the bigotry against Catholics? And hands would go down. By the end of the class, there were no hands up. Everybody had an exception.

Glenn Beck (30:59)

You're listening to the Best of the Glenn Beck Podcast. Hear more of this interview and others.

Chip Roy (31:04)

With the full show podcast available wherever you get podcasts.

Glenn Beck (31:09)

Last month, the big beautiful bill cleared the House by a single vote. The senators now have been meeting for weeks behind closed doors. They returned to Washington late Monday. They revised the package. Donald Trump just tweeted out, passing the one big beautiful bill is a historic opportunity to turn our country around. They need to work as fast as they can to get this bill to my desk before the 4th of July. Um, then you have Elon Musk saying, the massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know, you did wrong. You know it. Mike Johnson then says, well, that was disappointing. With all due respect, Elon Musk is my friend, and he's terribly wrong about the one big beautiful bill. My gosh, my head hurts from all of this. Now the White House is sending an additional $9 billion in cuts, which is nice, but, but, you know, we were hoping for like, you know, $1 trillion in cuts, and everybody's arguing over $9 billion in. In cuts. How is this thing gonna even pass? What is happening here? Uh, we have Chip Roy, who is. Who voted for the last one, reluctantly, and I don't know where he stands now. Chip Roy, welcome to the program. How are you, Chip?

Chip Roy (32:32)

Glenn, how you doing, brother?

Glenn Beck (32:34)

Good I'm good. Must not be fun being you right now.

Chip Roy (32:40)

Well, you know, here's the thing. When you have a reputation for trying to do the right thing, people do, I think, want to come to you to try to figure out, all right, like, what's the score here? What's the real deal? I'm proud that I think people see me as someone who tries to be honest and kind of, you know, work through this to achieve what you and I, I think, and all your listeners want to achieve. We have an obligation to get this done, but we have to get it done. You said. Thank you for saying that. I voted for it reluctantly, because I did reluctantly vote for it. My messaging at the time was reluctant.

Glenn Beck (33:11)

Right.

Chip Roy (33:11)

We have to weigh a lot of things right now. We have a president who was given a mandate, a president that you and I support. What he's doing, taking on the establishment, taking on this town, you know, rooting out all this DEI and woke garbage, you know, pushing the barriers, you know, securing the border. All the things that we know are happening. And we need to do certain things in this bill. We do need tax relief. We do need to extend the tax cuts. We need economic growth by putting more money in the hands and the pockets of Americans. Those are all important things. But we've got to cut spending, and the swamp creatures in Congress aren't good at that. People like me have been beating our head against the wall trying to demonstrate, hey, here's what we need to do. Here's how we need to cut. So now we got to balance this thing. The reason I was reluctant is because it does do some really good things that we bled and fought for for two months, Glenn. I mean, the week before last, we were like three straight days and going down negotiating with the White House, negotiating with folks. And what we got was good. Was it great? No, it was good. We got the inflation Reduction act, green new scam. We got a full repeal of basically all future projects. But, no, we don't deal with the 400 billion of existing projects. We got historic Medicaid reductions, reductions in the. Yes, but a trillion dollars worth. That's never been done, Glenn, Literally. But is that good enough for the moment? Maybe not. I think we needed to do better on FMAP and provider taxes and all of the things about the vulnerable versus the able bodied. We got Medicaid work requirements moved up from 29 to 26. We fought like hell to make the bill something that I think we could be proud of. Certain elements. But Elon, not wrong. Okay, Elon's not wrong that for the moment we need to do better. We need more spending restraint. We need to meet this moment with the actual deficit reduction that is necessary. If we get economic growth from the taxes, if we get economic growth from the regulatory policy, if we get economic growth because the President is strong and leading, then we can get out of this mess. But it is that plus spending restraint. Last point. I do think it is worth noting that I'm not sure that Elon is really excited about the extent to which we are killing the subsidies across the board. All future for EVs, for solar panels, for the wind crap. All future subsidies. We are mostly killing. There's a few lingering projects but we tightened it down. The left is losing their damn mind when so there is a little of that that's also at play. So that's a long winded explanation lot to do. We're pushing the Senate. They need to go further. We, I think we need to fix some stuff. But I can promise you this, Glenn, if this bill backslides, if they walk off of what we got, which I don't even think is necessarily good enough, I can promise you I will oppose it in the House. So we'll see what the Senate does.

Glenn Beck (36:05)

Your your speculation on what they're going to do, are they making it worse right now? Is it getting better?

Chip Roy (36:13)

I think there are forces at play that are desperately trying to undo the benefits we got with respect to repealing the Green New Scam subsid, which by the way, the President of the United States campaigned fully and clearly on terminating the Green New Scam subsidies. There are forces in the Senate who want to undo that. There are forces in the House who regret voting for those subsidy terminations. I think there are forces in the Senate who are wary of some of our Medicaid reforms which were important on work requirements, on eligibility to tighten down and make sure that, you know, we're trying to make sure the able bodied aren't getting benefits, etc. I don't think it went far enough. So we're going to have to work hard just to hold the line at the House bill, which Glenn, I would say is on the edge of whether it's good enough to merit moving forward and then hope we get three yards in a cloud of dust. I will tell you that if we can repeal the IRA subsidies, get the Medicaid reforms, constrain the spending and get the economic growth in the tax policy, that net it is moving the ball down the field. That's why I held my nose but if we were a truly conservative Congress, we would cut more. That's just the truth.

Glenn Beck (37:31)

So I read all kinds of things from the banking sector that we're talking about, our treasury bills that we are, we are so dangerously close. You raise the debt ceiling yet again. We are dangerously close to the rest of the world saying, I can't buy their. They're dead anymore. I mean, they're not serious about anything. Do you believe we're that close? This might be in a very.

Chip Roy (37:58)

Yeah, I believe we're on a knife's edge. I think that the bond markets are signaling that. I think this is why Scott Besson has been saying we need to get deficits down as a percentage of GDP so we can signal to the bond markets what needs to be signaled. I think that we have an obligation to get this right right now in order to frankly.

Glenn Beck (38:18)

So why isn't anybody listening to that? Why isn't anybody listening to Besant and to the bond market? That's lights out for America if we don't get that right.

Chip Roy (38:29)

Yeah. And let me give you another scary point, right? If we are having to refinance our debt at higher interest rates, which currently we would be projecting much higher interest rates than the CBO is even projecting. Putting aside the cbo, we all recognize that they're flawed. It doesn't matter. You got to just look at the model that's in front of you. The current model projects refinancing that debt at three and a half percent. But what if we have to refinance it at the historic levels of 4, 4 and a half, 5%? Right. We would have massively more interest expense. Instead of a trillion, it'd be a trillion and a half. Instead of a trillion, have to be 2 trillion. We are going to gobble up our entire government expenditure with interest. I mean, Glenn, it is that bad. And here's the problem. Is Congress finally waking up to what you and I and the Freedom Caucus conservatives have been saying now for a decade plus? Yes. They're realizing that we're in a real bad spot. So all that's doing is getting them to come to the table to do the bare minimum right, the Medicaid reforms, the inflation reduction act subsidies, the food stamp reforms, the other things we just put in this bill, all of which are good, but not as far as I would go. I'm just be clear for your listeners. They're finally getting to the table to accept that, and they're getting there too late. So now what I'm saying is we need to be doing more. Let's talk about the rescissions for a second. The president is sending up rescissions and yes, it's just 9 billion. The reason it's that small amount. And so everybody listening out there, why, why does this matter? The reconciliation package can pass the Senate with 51 votes. The normal appropriations process, which we still have to do this year, will require 60 votes in the Senate. Right. So that means it's going to be hard to get through Democrats. So this rescissions process is a way to try to cut some of these ridiculous programs like USAID and other things using a 51 vote threshold. So that is why we're trying to move it that way. The reason it's just a smaller $9 billion number is it's a test case. Will Congress do its job and do this first down payment, a $9 billion rescission of PBS, NPR and a bunch of those USAID, foreign government funding, foreign aid, wasteful program. And now we'll see. I'll of course vote for that. You know I will. You have to. So. But will the moderates. We'll find out. If they do, we'll get another rescissions package sent up up right after that. So this is all part of the process working with Russ Fot omb, the president. Sorry, I don't mean to filibuster, but that's the update.

Jim (41:06)

Jim, speak about the process a little bit because it's fascinating to watch this bill try to make its way through all of this at least. My estimate so far, or my understanding is there's at least two congressmen who and one congresswoman, I suppose, who already have said that their vote was a yes, but now it would be a no because they didn't realize what they were voting for, which would already put you under the amount that you need to get it passed. The salt people in the House are saying if you get rid of salt, we're done. And the Senate is saying we're getting rid of salt or at least adjusting it. How does this thing get across the finish line?

Chip Roy (41:46)

Well, I mean like everything else, you gotta figure out how you navigate to get 218 and to get 51. We've managed to get it to this far. Look, you go to war with army you got right. We have the Congress that we have, we have the President that we have who's trying to get this done and we're trying to work to do it. I think we're in the zip code, but we're not where we need to be. So let's take the things you just, you gave some examples. Are there things in the bill that some of us knew about and were warning about that others are now just kind of waking up and seeing? Yes, right at the time I said, for example, there's a car tax in this bill, you fools. I don't. I don't support it. It was a tax to make up for the fact that EVs and hybrids can't, you know, pay their fair share of the gas tax. They needed $40 billion to pay for some Coast Guard and other stuff. So how did they pay for it in the committee? What they did was they added a car tax for EVs and for hybrids. Now, do you think that we conservatives of limited government, you know, views, believe we should have a car tax? I sure as hell no. How about the AI restrictions? Should we prohibit Florida and should we prohibit Texas from being able to have some sort of regulation on AI? From a federalism standpoint, I'm not sure we should. Right. So there's lots of things in this bill that I knew all this was telling people about it, but, man, there's only like 40 fights you can pick. My fight was, you're going to repeal these, these damn subsidies on the Inflation Reduction act that are killing our grid, undermining our national security, and destroying natural gas and nuclear energy options. My fight was trying to get Medicaid held down about 20 other fights. For example, the car tax, Scott Perry and I and a couple of others, we at least killed the tax on the internal combustion engines. They were going to have a car tax on every car in America, y' all. So, look, we're fighting everything we got coming at us. This. There are things that need to get fixed. To answer your question, if they need to adjust salt, I might try to call the bluff of the guys in the SALT caucus and say, really? You're going to vote this down because you didn't get more subsidies for your great big blue state tax jurisdictions? Right. But if they want to try to call our bluff, I can tell you, if they repeal back the Inflation Reduction act stuff, which the President campaigned on, then that's going to be a real problem. So we will see. It is a fine line. And I'm trying to work with leadership, the White House, to deliver as close to my values as I can and be able to look in the mirror and say that I did enough. And I'm not sure, gentlemen, I'm sure I'm always trying to shoot straight. We're walking a line. It could easily peel off and I can't support it. It could move in the right direction and I'll support it and say, let's go fight tomorrow for the next thing. I'm trying to work in good faith with the president and his team to deliver. There's a lot of good things in this bill. Let's remember that, that $1 trillion of real Medicaid reforms, we've never done that before, guys. Ever. Right. The inflation reduction Act, Planned Parenthood not funded. Trans surgeries repealed for adults and kids to defund that the left had gone so far. We're peeling a lot of that back. So let's remember the good stuff while we're trying to, you know, highlight some of our concerns.

Glenn Beck (45:02)

Chip, I. You're very reasoned and I really appreciate talking to you. I really am so glad that you are representing the great state of Texas. You're a guy that at least I feel I can trust. I, you know, you say what you mean and you mean what you say, and that is the number one thing I look for in a representative is somebody who will say the same thing to me, to my face as they will behind closed doors. And I really appreciate all your hard work on this. Thanks, Jim.

Chip Roy (45:28)

Hey, I, please appreciate it, Glenn. And thank you for exposing all this, the American people and being truthful about it, like, because this is hard for people, people like us, because you want to be with the team, to move the ball down the field. We want to succeed, we want to win. But you also don't want to be, you don't want to eat a crap sandwich. So I promise you I will level set the good and the bad and the ugly. And then you just have to decide what's the best for the country and vote and move forward. So that's where we are.

Glenn Beck (45:52)

Next time it starts to move forward, you just, you call in and you let us know what's in it. Okay? Just make sure you get a hold of me. As soon as you start to see things moving forward, you let us know because I'd appreciate your point of view on that. Thanks, Chip.

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