Ep 236 | Debunking Progressive MYTHS About Christianity | Eric Metaxas | The Glenn Beck Podcast

Summary

Episode Summary: Debunking Progressive Myths About Christianity with Eric Metaxas

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Glenn Beck Program
• Host: Glenn Beck
• Guest: Eric Metaxas
• Episode: Ep 236 | Debunking Progressive MYTHS About Christianity
• Release Date: November 23, 2024

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1. Introduction to Dietrich Bonhoeffer and His Legacy

[00:34] Eric Metaxas opens the discussion by introducing Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German theologian and pastor who actively resisted the Nazi regime during World War II. Metaxas highlights Bonhoeffer's multifaceted role as a pastor, musician, and conspirator in the plot to assassinate Adolf Hitler. He questions, “Is that acting like a good Christian? And what is a good Christian?”

[05:09] Glenn Beck reminisces about meeting Metaxas 14 years prior during the promotion of Metaxas's biography on Bonhoeffer. He emphasizes the personal connection and the profound impact Bonhoeffer's story has had on his own faith and understanding.

2. Bonhoeffer’s Transformation and Influence

[12:12] Metaxas discusses Bonhoeffer's time in America, where he was profoundly influenced by the African American culture and the vibrant Christian faith he observed in Harlem. This experience catalyzed a significant transformation in Bonhoeffer, shifting him from a theological scholar to an active advocate against Nazi ideology.

[20:40] Glenn Beck elaborates on how Bonhoeffer’s personal relationship with Jesus deepened after his experiences in America, leading him to preach actively about faith and love for Jesus, moving beyond mere theological discussions.

3. The Battle Within the German Church

[28:22] Metaxas draws parallels between the moral struggles faced by the German church under Nazi influence and the current state of American evangelicalism. He criticizes the modern church for avoiding political engagement, similar to how many German pastors initially remained silent against the Nazis.

[34:19] Beck underscores the historical context of Bonhoeffer’s resistance, highlighting how Bonhoeffer opposed the Nazi's attempt to secularize and control the church, advocating instead for a faith that actively opposes evil.

4. Misinterpretations and Modern Misuse of Bonhoeffer’s Teachings

[55:46] Metaxas addresses misconceptions propagated by some relatives of Bonhoeffer and other critics who attempt to associate Bonhoeffer with extremist ideologies. He vehemently rejects these associations, insisting that Bonhoeffer’s legacy is one of profound faith and resistance against tyranny.

[59:20] Beck criticizes Christianity Today and similar publications for misrepresenting Bonhoeffer’s teachings, arguing that they distort his message to fit a liberal narrative while neglecting his true call for a "religionless Christianity" — a faith actively lived out in opposition to evil.

5. Nationalism and Faith in Modern America

[67:28] The conversation shifts to the concept of Christian nationalism. Beck argues that the term is a fabricated label used to delegitimize genuine expressions of faith. He differentiates between positive nationalism, inspired by figures like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, and negative, idol-centric nationalism exemplified by Hitler.

[69:12] Metaxas concurs, emphasizing that true loyalty lies not in blind nationalism but in upholding the principles enshrined in the Constitution and the foundational documents of the United States.

6. Call to Action: Living Out Genuine Faith

[75:04] Beck passionately urges Christians to move beyond passive faith and engage actively in societal issues. He criticizes churches that focus solely on religious trappings without addressing pressing moral and cultural challenges, advocating for a faith that confronts injustice and defends the oppressed.

[82:42] Metaxas reflects on Bonhoeffer’s concept of "religionless Christianity," encouraging believers to embody their faith through tangible actions that reflect their beliefs, much like Bonhoeffer did in his time.

[86:28] The duo emphasizes the importance of living out one’s faith authentically. Beck underscores that actions speak louder than theological statements, advocating for a Christianity that influences society positively and stands against moral decay.

7. Concluding Thoughts: Hope and Providence

[89:16] Beck expresses unwavering optimism, viewing the current era as a pivotal moment akin to revolutionary times. He believes that divine providence is guiding America towards reclaiming its foundational liberties and moral compass.

[92:10] Metaxas echoes this sentiment, recognizing the unique opportunity to embody and propagate the values that Bonhoeffer championed. Both speakers conclude with a call for steadfastness in faith and action, trusting that their efforts align with a higher purpose.

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Notable Quotes:

• Eric Metaxas ([05:09]): “All of this is history. It is real. And I know in many ways it's repeating itself.”

• Glenn Beck ([12:12]): “Bonhoeffer writes this essay and he says, number one, the role of the church is to be the conscience of the state, to tell the state, in a sense, this is when you go too far.”

• Eric Metaxas ([16:49]): “Now, the Old Testament, it's too Jewish.”

• Glenn Beck ([34:19]): “Bonhoeffer writes this essay and he says, number one, the role of the church is to be the conscience of the state.”

• Glenn Beck ([67:28]): “Christian nationalism is an invented term invented by the devil to demonize actual Christian faith.”

• Glenn Beck ([75:04]): “Bonhoeffer was trying to get the church to see it in his day. And again, many were like, we don't want any trouble. We’re just going to do church.”

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Key Insights and Conclusions:

1. Active Faith vs. Passive Religion: The episode emphasizes the importance of living out one's faith actively in society rather than confining it to religious settings. Bonhoeffer's life serves as a model for a faith that confronts injustice and evil.

2. Misuse of Historical Figures: There is a critique of how modern entities, such as Christianity Today, misinterpret and misuse figures like Bonhoeffer to fit partisan narratives, distancing from their true teachings.

3. Nationalism Defined by Principle: True American nationalism, as discussed, is grounded in constitutional principles and moral integrity, contrasting sharply with the idol-driven nationalism of historical tyrants.

4. Responsibility to Stand Against Evil: Drawing parallels between historical events and current societal issues, the speakers argue that Christians have a moral duty to actively oppose wrongdoing and defend the vulnerable.

5. Divine Providence in Modern Times: Both Glenn Beck and Eric Metaxas express a belief that current challenges are guided by divine providence, positioning contemporary events within a larger, purposeful framework.

6. Call for Unity and Action: The episode concludes with a rallying cry for Christians to unite, embody their faith through actions, and trust in a higher purpose to navigate and overcome present-day challenges.

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This episode provides a profound exploration of Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s legacy, drawing significant parallels between his resistance against Nazi Germany and the current state of American Christianity and politics. Glenn Beck and Eric Metaxas advocate for a faith that transcends passive belief, urging listeners to engage actively in societal issues to uphold moral and constitutional principles.

Transcript

[Glenn Beck]

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[Eric Metaxas]

We got you.

[Glenn Beck]

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[Eric Metaxas]

On the Great Seal of the United States are the words E pluribus unum, which means out of many, one. But Thomas Jefferson suggested a different motto. It was a more radical motto. In the spirit of liberty, Jefferson proposed the phrase rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. This is embedded in our nation's founding, the implicit belief that it is not only permissible to resist a tyrant, but it is the moral thing to do. This is the same belief that animated a German theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer in World War II. He was a pastor, he was a spy, he was a musician. He was also a conspirator in a plot to assassinate Hitler, acting, as he said, on God's behalf. So is that acting like a good Christian? And what is a good Christian? In the wake of the red wave, it is clear that Republicans are on top. But what about the church? Are we still a religious people or religious right? Is Christianity losing its influence on our culture as more and more people are stopping going to church? Is that a good thing? To explore these questions, we welcome to the podcast, radio and television host and bestselling author of many books, including the biography of Bonhoeffer. Bonhoeffer. The Movie is Out and it is Tremendous. Bonhoeffer. His book inspired the Angel Studio's latest film, its author, Eric Metaxas. Before we get to Eric, let me talk to you about preborn. Is it Christian nationalism to fight against abortion? Is that too political, or is that what we're supposed to be doing as Christians? I am part. I'm partnered with preborn, and I'm really proud of it. They're the nation's leader in introducing moms to unplanned pregnancies to their babies. Once mom hears the heartbeat and sees that baby inside of her, she's twice as likely to choose life. 64 million lives are gone from abortion in this country. And since Roe vs Wade, since that was first enacted, 64. Now, after it was put away, millions are hanging in the balance and it's actually becoming worse. We have to change this. We have to start with Americans hearts and minds. That's what preborn is all about. When a woman considering abortion wants to end her baby's life, preborn is there power of the ultrasound. Then also most women don't want to have an abortion. They just don't have anyone around them. They don't have any support. Preborn is there again for two years, supporting mom, diapers, formula, books, classes, whatever it is that they need. For $28, you can sponsor one ultrasound. Five would be $140. And if you have the means, please consider a leadership gift to save babies in a big way. Tax deductible donation of $5,000 will sponsor the entire country's network for 24 hours helping rescue 200 babies. Donate dial pound 250. Say the keyword baby. That's pound 250, keyword baby. Or go to preborn.com.

[Glenn Beck]

Glenn hi, friends, it's Liz, host of.

[Eric Metaxas]

The Liz Wheeler show here on the Blaze.

[Glenn Beck]

Our motto is challenge everything and we're effective. When Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer mocked Christians, we got her to apologize. When we held Speaker Johnson's feet to the fire on transgender bathrooms, he changed his tune. We're making a difference. Plus, we also give you a peek behind the curtains at the juicy political gossip and how it actually impacts policy. I invite you to subscribe and be a change agent with us. That's Liz Wheeler show everywhere. You find your podcast.

[Eric Metaxas]

So good to see you.

[Glenn Beck]

Yeah, it's good to see you. It's a joy to see you. It is a great joy and a great blessing. And you know I love you and I'm in awe of the fact that it's almost exactly 14 years ago that we met to talk about a brand new book that I had just written on Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And here we are.

[Eric Metaxas]

And I had no idea who Bonhoeffer was at the time. And I think how you got into my office is a friend of yours took a picture of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and put the. Oh, yeah, not to speak is to speak.

[Glenn Beck]

Oh, no, no, no. This is like one of my dearest friends, Joel Toucheron, I'll never forget. He says to me, the book comes out and I'd never had any big success or anything. So when he says, like, he says, we need to get you on Glenn Beck. And I remember thinking like, yeah, I need to win the lottery. I need to get on Oprah. Like, what are you talking about? Glenn Beck has this monster show on Fox, and everybody wants to get on Glenn Beck. And he's like, no, no, no. I think he would resonate with the story. And Joel had the insight to get that and to realize we should try. And so I remember he created the Bonhoeffer poster. People can buy this now, but this gorgeous image. And he prints it and frames it with the quote, which is actually not a Bonhoeffer quote. It's sort of like when they, you know, when they say Tocqueville said this, it's like, well, he said sort of said that, but he didn't exactly say that. But it doesn't matter, right? Silence in the face of ev. Evil is itself evil. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act. God will not hold us guiltless. This amazing thing, whatever. So he sends it to you, and somehow, evidently, it touches your heart.

[Eric Metaxas]

Oh, yeah. Immediately.

[Glenn Beck]

And you reached out.

[Eric Metaxas]

It came into my office, and things just used to appear in my office because I was always so busy. Nobody. And so I paged every, like, who dropped this off? Where is this? And we immediately reached out because I thought it was brilliant. I wanted to know who Bonhoeffer was. And now the movie.

[Glenn Beck]

14 years now you're sick of him. Now we're all sick of him. Just kidding. I got a kid. I kid. It's so amazing. Now, to be clear, the film which, like, officially comes out today is not officially based on my book. But guess what? I don't care. It is a magnificent film on Bonhoeffer. So I said, anything I can do to get people into the theaters, by the way, this weekend, not next weekend, like now. Because the way Hollywood works, they will book theaters in the weeks ahead based on what happens today and tomorrow and Sunday. That's it. And the film, I can say upfront, I have dreamed not just about a Bonhoeffer film like this, but any Hollywood film like this. For somebody to make a film that is about faith, faith in action, this beautiful hero, you just think like, we've always hoped that somebody would make a film like that and make it on a level that's not just for people who already agree with us, but that anybody who would see it would go and say, that's a great story. What is that? So I'm happy.

[Eric Metaxas]

So I want to start here. Do you know what this is?

[Glenn Beck]

I'm always frightened, man. You got stuff like nobody, nobody in the world.

[Eric Metaxas]

Are we joking?

[Glenn Beck]

You're joking. This is real. I'm touching this.

[Eric Metaxas]

I just handed him a silver ring, napkin ring. And you can Tell whose it is.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, the initials AH Might throw it. Let's see. It's not Al, so it can't be Lincoln. The swastika. Let me guess.

[Eric Metaxas]

So now describe the napkin.

[Glenn Beck]

I was going to say I wasn't ready for that because I noticed that secondarily, there are bloodstains on the napkin.

[Eric Metaxas]

That napkin is said to have been with Hitler during the bombing. So if you watched von Stauffenberg, Valkyrie, this movie is the spiritual side. Part of it is the spiritual side of Valkyrie. Yeah.

[Glenn Beck]

Now, my book on Bonhoeffer, and you know this better than anybody, all of this is in my book. The Valkyrie plot, whatever. Because Bonhoeffer would not have been sentenced to death if not for the Valkyrie plot.

[Eric Metaxas]

Correct.

[Glenn Beck]

But you're telling me, Glenn, only you could do this stuff. You're telling me not only is this Hitler's. This is too much for me, but you're telling me that when the bomb goes off at wolfish schanz on July 20, 1944, this was in the room.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yes. That's said to be Hitler's blood. We haven't had it tested yet, but since that time, that was said to be Hitler's blood.

[Glenn Beck]

This is 10 times like, this is your life. Are you just trying to freak me out, man?

[Eric Metaxas]

Are you trying to read that? You read Germany?

[Glenn Beck]

Yes. Then, Chef des Personale Haupt amtes ober Kruppenfuehrer von Herf Berlin, Charlottenburg. Ich ver fuge kruppenfurer, neighbor. Wirt hier mit zum Mann de gradiat und aus der Schutzstaffel aus. Gesturesen. I can just keep going, but what's the point? What the heck? This is the putsch of July 20th. Maskeblich betheilicht, Warren. Duress Ferrarthal.

[Eric Metaxas]

Turn it over. This is the execution order for those involved in that, signed by Himmler.

[Glenn Beck]

Glenn, of all the people in the world, you really. I don't know what to say. I do not know what to say.

[Eric Metaxas]

And you can see they tried to destroy it at the end of the war. It has burn stains on it.

[Glenn Beck]

I can't even believe that I get to look at this, much less touch it.

[Eric Metaxas]

So this is Bonhoeffer's story, which is so bizarre because he is a pacifist.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, yes and no. This is kind of where it gets tricky. And this is why the liberals hate my guts.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yeah, don't go there yet, because I'm going to get. Oh, I've got a lot of hate your gut stuff.

[Glenn Beck]

Because I Told the truth about Bonhoeffer. But, I mean, look, part of what's interesting about having this in front of me is to say to people, hey, ladies and gentlemen, this is history. This is real. My mother, who I talk to every day, she's 90. She grew up in Nazi Germany. My grandfather was killed in the war. I wrote my Bonhoeffer book. I dedicated it to my grandfather. I'm named after him. Eric, this is real. This is not something that happened a billion years ago. This is history. And you know, and I know in many ways it's repeating itself. And the Jew hatred is on the rise, which is why I think the film is coming out now. This is God's timing, because they tried to make the film for years and years and years, and boom, now it's out.

[Eric Metaxas]

It wouldn't have been the same. God's amazing.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eric Metaxas]

So let's start in the movie here for a second. One of the things that I loved in your book was the. The human side of Bonhoeffer. The fact that he comes to America early, before Hitler takes over, and he falls in love with the African American culture in Harlem, and the music, oh.

[Glenn Beck]

It changes his life. That's no exaggeration. It changes everything. And it leads to everything that followed. Now, should I just say, for people who know nothing about Bonhoeffer, like, two sentences? Go ahead. Okay, so Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a German pastor who in the early 30s, knew, because of his Christian faith, he needed to wake the church up in Germany that it's your duty as Christians to stand up to the evil of the Nazis.

[Eric Metaxas]

Now, at first, it was not about Jews, wasn't it? It was for.

[Glenn Beck]

About. For him. You're right. To some extent. So complicated, right? But this is why I hope people read my book. Because I always think. I want people. People to know the details because the parallels are so crazy to where we are today. But initially in Germany, as the Nazis rise, the first thing the Nazis are trying to do, because this is, you know, if you take God out of the equation and you have this Nazi philosophy. What's philosophy? Well, the philosophy is Jews are evil Germans, Aryans are good. Oh, okay, so what does that mean? It means that the government is now going to try to separate the whole culture along racial lines. And you go, okay, what happens when that comes to the church, when the Nazis say, okay, we're going to have a German Reichskirche, we're going to have a German Third Reich church. And before I read this, and we are now going to have an official state church. Now, in America, we know separation of church and state.

[Eric Metaxas]

They didn't.

[Glenn Beck]

We don't allow the state, by God's grace, to touch the church. The church is 1,000% independent. But in Germany, they had a very happy relationship. The Kaiser had been very pro church. And so you have this in a lot of European nations where they never had to deal with this issue. We dealt with it in 1776, we dealt with it in 1787. They didn't need to deal with it until suddenly. Now the head of the state is Adolf Hitler, who is as anti Christian as it gets. But he's not stupid. He's not going to pretend to be anti Christian. He's going to pretend to be. I care about Christian morality, God is with us, and all this different stuff. So Bonhoeffer is this rarest of individuals who sees immediately the Nazis are going to try to take over the church, and they're going to try to get the church to do. To go along with Nazi philosophy, which includes demonizing the Jews and saying that if you have Jewish blood, you can't be a member of the German church. And Bonhoeffer is like, well, that's a problem because Jesus was Jewish, Mary was Jewish, Joseph was Jewish, Peter was Jewish. It's like the whole church starts out with Jewish roots. So the idea that if you believe in Jesus and you have ethnic Jewish blood, that doesn't disqualify you. Most of the church was originally Jewish, and there are many of Bonhoeffer's friends who were ethnically Jewish who believed in Jesus and their ministers and stuff. So he knows we've got to fight now. And he tries to get the church to see it. And they're kind of like, well, we don't do politics, we just want to do church. We just want to preach the gospel. And he realizes you're missing it. This is your duty before God to stand against evil. So that's the battle. That's the first battle with Bonhoeffer, was to try to get the church to acknowledge this, understand? And you know, and I know the church did not do it. And by the time many in the church woke up, it was too late. And that's what I've been talking about like a maniac for the last two years, is that most American evangelicals are utterly guilty, sickeningly guilty, of exactly the same thing. Well, I can say that just because I'm an evangelical, but it's all of us. They have the least excuse. In my mind, I'm just Saying, so.

[Eric Metaxas]

Read that for a second to yourself. Read that for a second.

[Glenn Beck]

I was going to say none of.

[Eric Metaxas]

This German stuff while I set this up. So when Hitler takes over and he starts to go after the churches, he wants to squeeze all the Jew out of Jesus and out. And he decides to make a case to take the Old Testament and disregard the Old Testament and only have the New Testament. So we didn't have any of these pesky Jews.

[Glenn Beck]

Yes, the Old Testament, it's too Jewish.

[Eric Metaxas]

Too Jewish.

[Glenn Beck]

Guess what? It's pretty Jewish.

[Eric Metaxas]

Correct. And so there was this big movement done by these two. And this is just a letter in reference. Do you see the important sentence in that by any chance?

[Glenn Beck]

I didn't, no.

[Eric Metaxas]

So he's just saying, hey, Rosenberg, I know you're having a hard time and they're pushing back on you. Just keep going. And what he's talking about in this is the pushback that he's getting from moving a little too far, a little too fast and letting people know what they're doing to the Christian church. And he's being encouraged here. Don't worry about it. You know it's right. I know it's right. We gotta get all this Jewish stuff out of the churches.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, Rosenberg, who's listed here, he was in my Bonhoeffer book. I just reread the whole book after 14 years, and I found stuff that I had forgotten. And one of it is the Rosenberg thing, that he was the one pushing dramatically to completely rip real Christian faith out of the German churches and replace it. We'll replace the Bible with mind conflict. The kind of stuff you think that somebody would make it up. It couldn't really be true. It was true.

[Eric Metaxas]

Within six months, some churches had replaced the picture of Christ on the altar with Adolf Hitler.

[Glenn Beck]

Oh, no, it's so sick. But again, most Germans had no clue. They just kind of went along and went along. And when you really look at it, you understand why Bonhoeffer was screaming like a church, you need to do something now. You have a chance now to do something. So that's who Bonhoeffer was. But where you were going was that early in his Life, Bonhoeffer was 24 years old. He knew he wanted to be a pastor. He couldn't get ordained until he was 25. So he was this brilliant theologian. And, you know, he gets his doctorate at age 21. But at age 24, he decides, I want to spend a year in America. And he was like, just incredibly culturally sophisticated. So he thought, I'm going to go To America. I'm going to visit. His brother had split the atom with Einstein, was in Chicago doing something that year. So he goes to America. He goes to the horrible Union Theological Seminary, which is totally liberal. And he's already like. I mean, I write in my book, I quote his letters home and his journals, talking about how pathetic this. The liberal theology is of Union in 1930.

[Eric Metaxas]

Wow.

[Glenn Beck]

In 1930. Right. So what happens? He meets an African American student, Frank Fisher from Alabama. And Frank says, well, come up to this church with me in Abyssinian Baptist Church up in Harlem. And Bonhoeffer, for the first. And this is in the film, for the first time in his life, sees a kind of Christian faith. He's like, wow, this is amazing. The worship. They're really worshiping God. They're not just singing songs.

[Eric Metaxas]

It's personal relationship. It shows in the movie. It's a personal relationship which he doesn't even seem to understand. At least in the movie. He didn't really understand that.

[Glenn Beck]

I mean, I think he understood it a little bit, but you're right, not really. And he sees it there and it changes his life. So if you read again, because I just reread my book, you realize there's no doubt that he had, you know, what we would call orthodox Christian faith up to this point, but it hadn't touched his heart. So he sees this. He's totally changed by what he sees in the black church in Harlem. He goes back to Germany, and all his friends can see something happened to this guy. He's reading the Bible, he's going to church. He's not just a theologian. And then he starts talking to his pupils, to his students about things like saying things like, do you love Jesus? He never would have said that kind of language before.

[Eric Metaxas]

Do you love.

[Glenn Beck]

Do you have this personal relationship? Like all the stuff that you realize is the hallmark of actual faith, not just theological ascent? So he's different. And then he sees, of course, that what was happening to the blacks in America because he visited the Jim Crow South. He saw all this stuff. He suddenly sees the Jews being demonized. And he makes the connection.

[Eric Metaxas]

Hang on just second. Because we found a letter from Bonhoeffer writing to his family after the Scottsboro case. He says, we really don't have an analogous situation in Germany. Right.

[Glenn Beck]

That's the famous.

[Eric Metaxas]

That's crazy.

[Glenn Beck]

Yeah. Well, listen, you gotta understand. And I think I explained this in my book. On some level, that's true. In other words, when he's writing that letter, you know, which is the Scottsboro Case, what is it, 20, 29 or 30? Sorry, yeah, 30. So 1930. But the point is that the Jews in Germany up to that point, it's one thing to be anti Semitic, you know, you had all that in England, they're anti Semitic. But the point is the Jews were at every place in society. They had money, they had prestige, whatever. So he's thinking the blacks in America are hugely disenfranchised. So he doesn't make that equation. And also he doesn't know how quickly the Nazis are gonna make the Jews.

[Eric Metaxas]

You know, because the Nazi, the Nuremberg laws were based on our laws, much of them.

[Glenn Beck]

It's such a joy to talk to you because you know this stuff so deeply. It really, it's such a blessing. Glenn, thank you. And this stuff is so, so, so important. And again, rereading my own book, I remembered things that I had forgotten because I've talked about Bonhoeffer hundreds of times. But some of this granular stuff, you think, wow, you know, there's a reason my book is as long as it is, because people need to know the details. Otherwise you just mythologize it and it becomes a cartoon. It's like, no, you need to know how real this is. But it is.

[Eric Metaxas]

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[Glenn Beck]

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[Eric Metaxas]

Okay, thank you.

[Glenn Beck]

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[Eric Metaxas]

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[Glenn Beck]

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[Eric Metaxas]

In the movie, he walks into, I think, a hotel because his black pastor friend says, you don't know what the rest of America is like.

[Glenn Beck]

They take a trip. I mean, Bonhoeffer loved to travel and he was so culturally curious, he would go everywhere. So here he is in New York and his friend says, hey, let's go visit the Jim Crow South. Let's go to Washington, D.C. we can see Howard University. And you can see, like, what we have here in America. So that really happened. And in the film, they show him going with Frank Fisher to Washington, dc. And so in the film, they go into a hotel to book a room. Now, because I just reread my book, I realized this happened with a restaurant. Bonhoeffer goes into a restaurant with his black friend and they are refused service. And he's. In other words, he saw this. Now in the film, it's much more dramatic, but he saw, like, this is America. Wow. Like, this is real. So this was real. You know, people talk about racism today. Ha. In 1930. This is the real thing.

[Eric Metaxas]

So the hotel didn't happen. But the same thing happened without the shotgun.

[Glenn Beck]

It's the same thing.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yeah, yeah. And he couldn't relate to it at the time. When do you think that kicked in with him over in Germany?

[Glenn Beck]

Well, this is the other thing that's so fascinating about Bonhoeffer because many Germans, like my family, for example, they had no clue what's going on. They're simple people. They have no connections. They have no whatever. Bonhoeffer's family was so connected.

[Eric Metaxas]

They were his life.

[Glenn Beck]

They were part of the. Yes, they were part of the cultural elites. And so they knew everybody and knew everything and had a lot of Jewish friends. His sister, and this is in the movie, his twin sister marries a Jewish man. Now, it was a Jewish man who converted to Christian faith. But according to the Nazis You're a Jew.

[Eric Metaxas]

And she's violated the birth order bonus.

[Glenn Beck]

That's right. So Bonhoeffer's twin sister and her husband and his nieces are Jews who begin to be persecuted. So it's very personal for him. He had many friends. His best friend. Before Eberhard Bacon becomes his best friend, his best friend is Franz Hildebrand, who's Jewish. And so all this stuff hits him personally. He's forced to see stuff that no Germans would see. So he sees it early on. And also because he's so smart, he sees where it's going. And, you know, the really dramatic thing is Hitler takes power January 31, 1933. Within a couple of months, the church kind of leaders are trying to figure out, well, what do we do about this kind of the way the Nazis are dealing with the Jews? How do we respond as the church? Bonhoeffer, being this genius theologian, he is deputized by these church leaders, go off and tell us, what's the answer? What do we do? What's the biblical answer to this? And he writes a famous essay called the Church and the Jewish Question, where he lays out, okay, number one. And it's kind of funny because I'm reading about the founders again recently, and you realize that the founders wrestled with this in the 1770s. Bonhoeffer is wrestling with this in 1933. He's like, We've never had to face this before. What do we do? And he comes up with exactly what the founders came up with. In other words, that the Bible and the Christian faith means that no government has any right to push us around. Our rights are from God. We are free. And as Christians, we have to live that out. So he spells this out for these Germans who are. They're pastors, but they've never thought about this before. They never had to think about, well, what if the government starts pushing against this?

[Eric Metaxas]

Such the American story today.

[Glenn Beck]

It's amazing, right? It's amazing. And so if you don't know your rights and if you don't know what it really means to be a Christian, you're going to let them bully you. Which many churches have been doing for the last, let's just say four years, but for much longer than that. So Bonhoeffer writes this essay and he says, number one, the role of the church is to be the conscience of the state, to tell the state, in a sense, this is when you go too far, this is your job. In other words, what is God's idea of the state? God's idea of the State is. There should be a state, there should be a government, but it has to be serving righteous purposes. And Barnum says, first thing is the job of the church is to make that clear. And then if the church, if the state is going wrong, it's the job of the church to help the victims of state action. So anybody hearing him read this essay, as he did read it to these pastors, they right away think like, oh, you mean the Jews. And then he clarifies, oh, and by the way, if the victims of the state behaving not the way the state is supposed to be behaving, if those victims are not members of the church, in other words, if they're Jews, it is our duty to do so. I think a lot of Germans were kind of like, huh, really? That's our duty as Christians? And he's like, yes. But then he goes the final fatal step, step 3.3. And he says, and if the state refuses to heed the counsel of the church and to do the right thing and continues to persecute the victims, it then becomes the duty of the church of Christians to, he uses the phrase, to put a stick in the spokes of the wheels of state. In other words, to come against the state itself. And you could see how a lot of patriotic Germans would be like, what? What are you talking about? Because they had this tradition from Martin Luther, you know, to put this overemphasis on Romans 13, which is, you know, a passage in the New Testament that focuses on, it's our job to, you know, to go along with what the state says to do. And there's a truth there up to a point. And Bonhoeffer is thinking, yes, up to a point, up to this point. And so it was very incendiary. And a lot of pastors and theologians thought, no, no, he's gone too far. We, the church, it's not our job to go against the state. Are you kidding? And he saw it crystal clear. And so he tried and tried and tried to get more people to see it. Obviously, not enough. Agreed.

[Eric Metaxas]

When was that that he wrote that?

[Glenn Beck]

33. Early in 33.

[Eric Metaxas]

So is it true that he was doing a broadcast when Hitler was, I.

[Glenn Beck]

Think, sworn two days, Two days after Hitler comes to power, is elected. Bonhoeffer had been, now the mythological. In my book, in all my biographies, I like to clear up stuff that's a little fuzzy because a lot of people, people would say, like, oh, yeah, Bonhoeffer was giving a radio speech and the Nazis cut it off. That's not really true. We don't know that's true. But the bottom line is he had been scheduled for some time to give a radio address on the fear of principle, on the issue of what's called the fear principle. And I have to explain that, you know, what led to the rise of Adolf Hitler. Germany had always had a monarch. They'd always had this wonderful leader, the Kaiser. Suddenly the Allies, you know, ham handedly say that the Kaiser has to abdicate. You can't have a monarchy. We're going to force democracy on you. They never had democracy before. So they're sort of looking around and thinking, this is not really. We didn't. If democracy doesn't arise out of we the people, then it's kind of enforced and it's kind of a mess. So Germany was. They were longing for a leader like they used to have in the King, in the Kaiser. And if you'd asked them, what kind of leader are you looking for? They didn't really know. They just know we want a leader. And you could see the devil thinking, like, well, I've got a leader just like that waiting on the wings.

[Eric Metaxas]

And they were demoralized.

[Glenn Beck]

They were demoralized. They were just looking for someone. And you can see on a human level why they would do that. And so Bonhoeffer gets on the radio, this is two days after Hitler takes power, and he gives this kind of radio speech about what is leadership like, what is righteous leadership? And of course, righteous leadership is that I am deputized by God to lead my family, let's say, right. In other words, my authority doesn't come from me, it comes from God. I'm the father and I have a duty, and so I am under authority. And so what he talks about is the Fuhrer principle is this idea of a Fuhrer who's an idol, he's under no authority. He's not under God's authority. He. He is his own authority. It's this messianic, satanic. What does that mean?

[Eric Metaxas]

Fuhrer mean?

[Glenn Beck]

Fuhrer literally means leader. So think of leader, capital L, the leader. You know, it's kind of like North Korea. The leader, the dear leader. And so it's to make an idol of the leader. So even the Kaiser was under God's authority, but the leader, this idea of the leader that kind of arises in the 1920s in Germany, is this just a leader, but whose authority is he under? Nobody. And so Bonhoeffer lays this out and he says, there's the temptation to make an idol of this leader. And for this leader to lead people to kind of worship him as opposed to, you know, I mean, we don't want our kids to worship us. We want them to respect us because we respect God. And it's a whole different. So he's outlining kind of this biblical view of leadership versus this satanic will to power kind of leader. And. Wow. I mean, he's giving this radio address, and it gets cut off. We don't know why it gets cut off and stuff. But. So he's on the record. Two days after Hitler takes power, Bonhoeffer is on the record as standing against this kind of false leadership. In fact, he says that leader is a misleader. Wow.

[Eric Metaxas]

So let me go through a couple of things here because I'd like your opinion on early on, and especially with the church, a couple of things happen. You just mentioned one, and that is when Hitler comes to power, the people are demoralized. They have been kicked by everybody in the world. They are no longer the great nation that they once thought they were. The churches had really hurt themselves in World War I by saying, this is gods, and it wasn't. And then they go into just decadence with the Weimar. And so let me just drop a marker here for a second, then I'll give you one more thing. Drop the marker at, gosh, that kind of sounds like America today. Okay. You've been kicked around, you're tired of it, you're looking for somebody, and somebody comes to say, oh, I'll take care of that. Okay. The next marker is. As I started doing research on transgenderism, the college or university of sexology in Berlin at the height of the Weimar Republic. The first transgender surgery happens in 1925 in Berlin. And that guy has multiple surgeries. He dies in 29 as they try to sew a uterus inside of that man.

[Glenn Beck]

Okay, this is the island of Dr. Moreau.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yes, it is.

[Glenn Beck]

This is so sick.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yes. So. But that university in Berlin starts writing books and papers and starts pushing this out. So it's in the universities. It's even in some of the schools, secondary schools, and that's when it's my understanding, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. That's when the people who felt they were being pushed into the background and we had just become this immoral, godless state. They were looking for someone to get rid of all of this. Right. And they found them in the brownshirts. So the first book burnings were actually the stuff that's saying transgenderism, homosexuality, pedophilia, all of that is Fine.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, that's the point is there's going to be truth in every lie. And that's the way the devil works. There's no such thing as a pure lie. So you have to, you know, you give somebody something that they like and they go along with it. And again, if you're a Christian, you would recognize pretty quickly, like, wait a minute. Can't go along with that. Can't go along with that. And. But they. The church in Germany, again, it was lost. So Bonhoeffer knew the church was the only hope of Germany to stand against this evil. But if he couldn't get enough German pastors to do that, and he couldn't.

[Eric Metaxas]

So. But let me go back. Here's why I dropped those two in. When I saw, you know, when you hear people, transgender homosexuals or whatever, they'll say, those Christians are going to round us up.

[Glenn Beck]

Yeah.

[Eric Metaxas]

Historically, they have a point in Germany. Historically, that's what happened. The Christians got in bed with the Germans.

[Glenn Beck]

Were they the Christians? You see what I'm saying? But I don't know that that's true. And I think that we're living in a day right now, especially as Americans. I know that anything that leans toward theocracy, that leans toward demonizing people with whom we disagree, that is fundamentally anti Christian, in other words. So this idea that there are people who want to impose their morality, I know that happened in the past. We're not there. In other words, I am very deeply involved in all kinds of Christian communities. I don't see a hint to that. And if you ever do see a hint, it's the Christians that say, no, that's wrong. And so I don't see that parallel today. But the fear on the other side is there. There are people who think, oh, if people, if Christians and conservatives get in power, they're going to do this and this and this and this. I know that's not true, but I know that their fear of it is very real, which is why they use the incendiary language that they do. That if Trump gets in power, he's going to do this and this and this. That is absolute nonsense. I would be screaming from the rooftops. But the point is, they're so convinced of this, they celebrate, think, no, no, he's Hitler 2.0, that they're willing to put a bullet in his head. They're willing to. In other words, they're willing to do anything because they feel like they know that this is a real threat. I know that it isn't, but these are the times in which we live.

[Eric Metaxas]

So how do you convince people who will see these parallels? Strong leader, restore things.

[Glenn Beck]

It's very surfacey, Glenn. This is the thing. I've been dealing with this since 2016, when I first came out for Trump, and there were people thinking, eric, you idiot, you wrote the Bonhoeffer book. Don't you see that he's an authoritarian nationalist, just like Hitler? And I'm thinking, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. His version of nationalism is like George Washington's version of nationalism, not like Hitler's version. So nationalism by itself is not bad. When you make an idol of the nation, it can go bad. But George Washington, Abraham Lincoln loved America.

[Eric Metaxas]

Correct.

[Glenn Beck]

And that kind of nationalism is beautiful. It doesn't lead to making an idol of patriotism an idol of the president. It leads away from that. But people who really don't have a sense of history, they're very simplistic and they go, hitler was a nationalist. He was an authoritarian. Trump is authoritarian. Now, even that phrase when people say, Trump is authoritarian, that is nonsensical. For four years, he was the President of the United States. He didn't do the stuff that people are saying. It doesn't mean I agree with everything. But the point is that these people are so emotional that they don't even. The facts are meaningless as far as they're concerned. If you are in any way like a strong leader, they say, oh, you're an authoritarian. Do they know what an authoritarian is? Have you lived in North Korea? Have you lived in a country with actual authoritarianism where if you dissent, you're rounded up? You know, the only people I see being rounded up in America is people that dared to wander through the Capitol and take selfies on J6. Those people are in prison while we sit here having this conversation. So there's tremendous irony. And we're in a dark place. Yeah.

[Eric Metaxas]

Let me. While we're here in the dark place, let me just ask you, because you get a lot. Well, let me ask you this first before we go there. If Bonhoeffer were alive today, what do you think he would be? What he would think about world affairs, theology? Would he be engaged?

[Glenn Beck]

Well, I mean, yeah, I think that we just have to look at how engaged he was. He was willing to get involved in a plot to kill Adolf Hitler. Why? Because he knew that Jews are being destroyed, murdered. He said, I have to do something about this, you know? And so I think that this idea, you know, the lie that he was dealing with in his day, it's the same lie we're dealing with in our day, which is what led me to write my book, Letter to the American Church. What would Bonhoeffer say today? It's the same excuses being given by the church. We don't do politics. What do you mean you don't do politics? Slavery is an issue. And you say, well, we don't take a position that's political. We just do church. How can you do church and not take an issue on enslaving human beings? That's politics. My hero, William Wilberforce. I wrote a biography of William Wilberforce. He was a politician who, because of his Christian faith, said, I must stand against the slave trade. This is a satanic abomination, treating human beings like this. I'm going to use politics and culture and whatever I can do to change the laws. That's our duty as Christians. It's our duty as Americans. And so Bonhoeffer was trying to get the church to see it in his day. And again, many were like, we don't want any trouble. We're just going to do church. We'll let the evil take over. We don't care. It's not affecting us. It's affecting the Jews. God judges that if you don't speak up for those who are being crushed. And so I really think Bonhoeffer gives us a picture of what it is to be involved. And again, our fidelity is to God. But the idea that you can somehow be a person of faith and not take your faith into action is preposterous. We have a duty.

[Eric Metaxas]

You know, I know we're not going to be judged for our deeds, but I do think that if you've been. If you have been redeemed, you fundamentally change.

[Glenn Beck]

No, that's.

[Eric Metaxas]

And you want to serve. You want.

[Glenn Beck]

To some extent, Glenn, you know, when people now say what you just said, like, we're not going to be judged by our deeds, but we are, part of me says that's not right. We are going to be judged by our deeds. In fact, there are many places in the scripture that are clear as a bell. So, you know, yes, technically, I'm saved by faith. But the point is, the scripture says faith without works is dead. In other words, if you claim to have faith, God knows whether you have faith by how you live. He sees your heart. And if you're not living like Jesus actually did, defeated death on the cross, and you are freed to live for God and his purposes. If you're not living that way, it proves you don't believe It. So you can claim to have faith and say, well, I sign a statement of faith and I go to that church and God is not impressed by that. He looks at your life.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yeah.

[Glenn Beck]

And I think that this is the heresy that was at the center of the German church during Bonhoeffer's time. It's the same heresy that is at the center of many American churches in our day. They do not understand that God demands of us to live out what we claim to believe. If you say, I believe this and this and this, and God says, okay, well, are you living it? If you're not living it, God knows you don't believe it, it's a lie, you're fooling yourself.

[Eric Metaxas]

I've been really wrestling with blessed is the peacemaker. And my understanding of that, that I've kind of settled on is Bonhoeffer was a peacemaker, but not necessarily for his life. You know, if you're going to be a peacemaker, that means you're standing out in front and you're saying these things are negating the peace of everybody. And I've got to stand against those things, restore that peace for everybody. That doesn't mean your life is going to be peaceful.

[Glenn Beck]

That's right.

[Eric Metaxas]

It doesn't mean that you shut up and sit down. Right.

[Glenn Beck]

It's. Yeah, no, it's heavy stuff. I mean, to get back to the movie, like, there is so much here and in a movie you can't tell everything. You can't tell. I mean, my book is almost 600 pages long, but they do an amazing job of sort of summing up the issue because you understand in a two hour film to try to tell that story. But that's the central story. Will you live out your faith? And by the way, this is a key point too, is that I think a lot of Christians, speaking as a Christian, they're big excuses like, oh, I don't want to get anything wrong. And they see God as some kind of a moral policeman who's kind of like just looking for you just to get out of line and he's going to whack you. Then you don't know who God is. God loves you. And he wants to say, attaboy. And even if you get it wrong, he's like, yeah, but I see what you tried to do there. It's not about, did you make a mistake? So Bonhoeffer goes out on a limb and says that even if I'm getting something wrong, I've got to do something. I'm going to do my best and If I'm wrong in being involved in this plot to kill Hitler, then I cast myself on the mercy of a merciful God. But to do nothing. I know that that's just an excuse. And so many Christians think that if, if I do nothing, I won't vote for this guy. I'm just going to do nothing. To get back to the famous quote, not to act is to act. You don't get some neutral carve out Switzerland. Their neutrality is despicable. It's not like, well, they were neutral. When you have evil rising and you say, well, I don't want to. I'm not going to take any sides, God's going to judge you for that. You got to figure this out and you to do what you can. So that's where we are.

[Eric Metaxas]

So is it true that he comes back and he knows he has to do something? And he. It seems to me that when he comes back and he's talking to his pupils, that he's kind of. He's asking, you know, so pacifist. I mean, can you be a pacifist? And it seems to me he's almost looking either to send a signal to them, to let them know, hey, you're going to hear some things about me maybe, or he's trying to get confirmation on this theory of his.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, there's a few things. Let me say this real quick. Just as we were talking about nationalism a moment ago, right? Like George Washington's idea of nationalism, Lincoln's idea of nationalism is this beautiful thing. It's beautiful. It's about freedom. It's about all this great stuff. And then there's evil nationalism, which is Hitler's idea of nationalism. Similarly with pacifism, Bonhoeffer, when you look at the world of World War I, I mean, the madness of French killing Germans, Germans killing French, at that point, he realized nationalism has overtaken Europe. It leads us to World War I. It's destructive. And in that world, he's a pacifist. But he's not a pacifist like John Inyoko, you know, in the bed. We're not talking about, you know, we're against the Vietnam War. We're talking about real pacifism that says if it's not a just war, if it's just about chest beating and, you know, Germany wants to take over and da, da, da, that's wrong. So in that world, he's a pacifist. But a lot of liberals, in the decades after Bonhoeffer's death, whatever they tried to pretend like, oh, Bonhoeffer was this liberal, theological liberal and a pacifist. Basically, that's nonsense. And I didn't know when I started writing my book what I would find, but what I found was that that was all nonsense. Bonhoeffer was not any kind of a pacifist along those lines. So we have to be careful when we use terms just like nationalism when we say pacifism. Just as we would say, if there's a way to avoid war, yes, we want to avoid war. But if there's this horrible aggressor or something like that, we have a duty to defend the innocent, to defend the. You know, which is different from kind of a. The purest kind of pacifism. Bonhoeffer was not the kind of a pacifist that says, I will not, you know, take up arms if there's an invader or something like that. And so I just think that it just needs to be clarified.

[Eric Metaxas]

At what point does Bonhoeffer really. I mean, he must have known with a purer principle. But at what point does he really know they're coming for me?

[Glenn Beck]

Well, it's. I can say this. And you remember the story, right? So he goes, so he's trying to fight in Germany to try to get the church to wake up, try to get the church to wake up. He sees the church hasn't done it, so then he starts this illegal seminary to train up these young men. What does it really mean to be a disciple of Christ? Not just a fake church guy, but to live it out, whatever. He does that for a while. Then the war is coming. And he knows he cannot fight in Hitler's war. He knows. But he knows that if he says this publicly, being who he is, then the Nazis are going to come down on all the people associated with him. So he can't say it publicly. He needs a way out. He decides, ah, I'll go back to America. I'll sort of escape the trouble and I'll go back to America. So in 1939, he goes back to America and while he's in New York, realizes, oops, I made a mistake. I need to go back to Germany to face whatever I have to face. He didn't know what he's facing. Maybe death, probably death. Who knows? His faith was so strong that he just knew, I just need to go back and God will take care of me. And whatever happens, is this coming from.

[Eric Metaxas]

Him or is this coming from. Because some say it came really from the advice of the pastor.

[Glenn Beck]

Absolutely not. No. That's one of the things in the film. There are things in films that. That's just not true. No, no, no, it totally came from him. In fact, he probably didn't even meet with them when he came back. That's one of the things in the film that, you know, because he wasn't.

[Eric Metaxas]

There long, was he?

[Glenn Beck]

He was there 26 days.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yeah.

[Glenn Beck]

And I will say that. No, it completely comes from him when I say from him. From him talking to God, from him praying and saying, lord, lead me. What do I do? What do I do? The Lord led him and it became his conviction. Okay, I need to go back. So what happens now is what is he going back to? He knows the war is coming. He knows he can't fight in the war. What's he going to do? Well, long story short, his brother in law is involved in German military intelligence and the Abwehr. German military intelligence was kind of independent. In fact, they were at odds with the Gestapo because we forget that there was, you know, it's not like living in Kim Jong Un's North Korea. There was still some semblance of law and whatever. So he figures if the war comes and I'm working for my brother in law in German military intelligence, it'll look like I'm serving the Third Reich. It's a time of war and I'm doing what I can and so on and so forth. So he does that. And while he's doing that, so the Nazis are kind of leaving him alone and leaving the Abwehr alone. You know, it's kind of like the FBI and the CIA, they're kind of, you know, and he gets involved in the course of his actions effectively as a spy. He gets involved in trying to get seven Jews out of Germany into neutral Switzerland to save their lives. Bottom line, it's called Operation 7. And in the course of that there's some financial irregularities because the wonderfully neutral Swiss requirements money to take the Jews isn't that great. And that's when the Gestapo, they kind of notice, oh, there's some irregularity. So Bonhoeffer and his brother in law and a few others are sent to prison. But it's just for that no one knows about the plot to kill Hitler. So he's in prison. He's treated rather well during the season. He's in Tegel military prison. It's not like the Gestapo prison, whatever. His uncle, because he's so well connected, is the military commandant over all of Berlin. So when all the guards and everybody find out, oh, this is the nephew of like the big, big, big, big Boss. So he's treated okay. And he's under the impression, everybody's under the impression that they will be able to beat this rap, that this is just a money laundering thing. And he'll be able to, he will get out, right? And he gets engaged. Now, none of that's in the film, but he gets engaged and it's this love affair and it's so beautiful. And he's in prison writing letters to his fiance. It's so beautiful. And he has hope. And obviously it's all in my book because it's so moving, it's beautiful. So he's in there. While he's in there, as we've been saying, July 20, 1944, the Wolfenschantz Valkyrie plot happens. The bomb goes off. Hitler is not killed. And not only do they fail to kill Hitler, but suddenly now the whole conspiracy is exposed for the first time ever. Because it's been going on for years, nobody knows. Suddenly it's exposed. So at that point, to answer the question, finally, that's when Bonhoeffer knows, probably my days are numbered. Now, he didn't know for sure because at the end of my book I talk about how as the Nazis realize they're probably losing the war, they want to keep a few high level prisoners as bargaining chips. So there's a good chance that Bonhoeffer will survive. But at the very, very, very end, it's chilling. The Zossen files are exposed and it's clear as a bell to Hitler, who's guilty. And he just gives the order, they must be executed. And so on April 9, 1945, Bonhoeffer is hanged at Flossenberg concentration camp. Taken there. I mean, he's only there 12 hours. He's taken 100 miles in a car specifically for this fake trial through the night and then to be hanged in the morning. But I mean, at the end of my book, I talk about Bonhoeffer's view of death. And this is what's so beautiful about it, is that he knew. It's not like he hoped. He knew that Jesus had defeated death and that he is now going home. A lot of times we say this and it kind of sounds nice. He knew this is true. And if you know that's true, as every Christian should know, you live differently. You live heroically, you live freely and bravely. And so he to me, is the ultimate model. And what he's saying to all of us is like, this is for you. This is not just for few. This is not extra credit Christianity. This is the real thing. If you believe this, you're going to live differently and you'll die differently. And it's. So ultimately, that's one of the reasons.

[Eric Metaxas]

Why we know when exactly he died. Right. Didn't he thank his executioner?

[Glenn Beck]

Not exactly, but sort of. In other words, there was this kind of kindness. It's in my book that he died with this kind of. I mean, listen, even if we don't get this transcript that says this because there's been some dispute about that transcript, it doesn't matter. If you look at Bonhoeffer's life carefully, this is who he was. He knew he's going into the presence of God. He knew he's going home. This is not like sort of, I hope he knew it. And people who were with him in the last weeks. And again, I just read my own book, reread it. So many different people saying exactly the same thing about what he was like under duress, how beautiful, how his soul shone in this dark environment and how they look to him for courage and hope. And I mean, you can't fake that when things are really, really, really bleak. So it's ultimately very beautiful to see, like, that's real, that that's God's will for every one of us. That's not like some fake stories we tell. It's history, it's real. So.

[Eric Metaxas]

All right, let me take you to some people that are upset. Relatives of Bonhoeffer.

[Glenn Beck]

Oh, yeah, distant relatives who are guaranteed pro Hamas lunatics. So these are Jew hating lunatics claiming to speak for the man who died for the Jews of Europe, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I mean, let's be clear.

[Eric Metaxas]

So relatives of Bonhoeffer wrote that he would never have seen himself anywhere near the right wing except extremists, violent movements that are trying to appropriate him today. Yeah.

[Glenn Beck]

Oh, the violent movements. What's the violent movement? What are we talking about? What's the violent movement? Antifa. Oh, sorry, that's Marxist left. Who are we talking about? Look, these people, you've dealt with them longer than I have. They're unhinged. There's no talking to them. They have their view, it's a free country, but they're crazy. Listen, when my book came out in 2010, you had me on your show. Can you imagine how the left wing lunatics who had their own private Bonhoeffer, this fictional Bonhoeffer that they had created to have me write a big book that's selling a million copies and I go on the Glenn Beck show, that right wing neo Nazi Glenn Beck, but they don't care about the facts. They just know they hate you. They hate Trump. They hate. Like, they don't know what they think. All they know is somebody other than them has put out a book on Bonhoeffer, and so they're gonna just demonize and demonize. That's kind of what's happening here. And again, the irony. I mean, it's horrible irony. The liberals who go to see this film are gonna love the film. This is not some right wing film. I mean, the guy who wrote the screenplay and directed it is not even conservative. He's probably liberal. I mean, he's so he made a film for everybody. They made this beautiful film and these lunatics are coming out and trying to brand it like, you know, it's some neo Nazi. I mean, again, people who see the film is going to be pretty clear because I guarantee you tons of liberals aren't reading this junk and they're going to go see the film and they're going to tell all their friends it was an awesome film.

[Eric Metaxas]

Christianity Today.

[Glenn Beck]

Oh, yeah. Well, they've gone over to the dark side, in case you didn't know that.

[Eric Metaxas]

You know, they also provided some pushback. Here's what they said. What kind of connection is the film making? By suggesting that Bonhoeffer changed his mind about the narrow way. Explain what the narrow way is.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, you see, Christianity Today, actually, in all seriousness, they're getting that wrong. But I can understand when somebody's making a movie, you know, they play fast and loose with some stuff. And it's true that in the film, you know, you could get the idea that Bonhoeffer's saying, like, yeah, well, the heck with this, you know, Christian morality, Hitler needs killing. You know. Now that's not true. But you could see that if people aren't sensitive to the whole thing, that they would say, well, it sort of implies that that's not true. I mean, it's not true of Bonhoeffer, it's not true of the film. I mean, Angel Studios is distributing the film. They take Faith seriously. This is not about, like, well, we don't care. We just want to make a movie. But if you're looking for something like Christianity, they're just looking for something to find a thread to pull. So they say this crazy stuff. I mean, in the film, the marketing, and this is Angel Studios, right? They, you know, they kind of want to make it like he's a. It's a sexy spy thriller and Bonhoeffer's assassin and he's got a gun or Whatever. Like that. That's called marketing, Right? Right, that's called marketing.

[Eric Metaxas]

If you watch the film, come in and see the movie.

[Glenn Beck]

Right, come in and see the movie. But so they kind of act like, oh yeah, this kind of right wing crazy cabal that they want to incite political violence. I mean the left is, they're unhinged. So they write stuff like this.

[Eric Metaxas]

So here's. They finish this. Perhaps it's suggesting that the audience should also lay down their political naivety and take up arms. Perhaps it's suggesting the way of Jesus is too soft for the hard realities of modern conflict and should be replaced by a more realistic approach.

[Glenn Beck]

Yeah, I mean, of course that's nonsense. But what is interesting, of course there's truth in every lie. I think that there are people, and I'm among them, who feel like there has been this, how do we put this, There is a warrior side of Jesus, right? That he turns over the tables in the temple and he rails against the religious leaders. They don't know that Jesus, they kind of want Jesus is very gentlemanly. And so what their version of Jesus is, is just like all of the, like the Prussian military class that said we're too gentlemanly to push back too hard against Hitler, he's the head of the government. In other words, there's a time to say, wait a minute, this is evil, we gotta do something about this. Right. But Christianity today and others, they're not interested in these nuances. So they just have to say, oh, you're saying, you know, throw away your Christian morality. I would say, on the contrary, it is. Pick up your true Christian morality and stand against, I'm not talking about with a gun, but stand against evil.

[Eric Metaxas]

The Christians in the Middle east, they stand, of course, they're not blowing people up. They stand, they speak out against it, they do what they can to fight against it as well.

[Glenn Beck]

Yeah, people give their lives for their faith. And again, I think that there are people, you know, like the editors of Christianity Today, they kind of act like, well, that's quaint stuff from the past. Now it's just about being nice and agreeing with people or some preposterous thing like that. By the way, what happens if you don't stand against evil? Children's bodies are being mutilated. We have sex trafficking on our southern border. Does it not bother you that 11 and 12 year old girls are being raped? Doesn't bother you if that doesn't bother you, we know what kind of Christian you are.

[Eric Metaxas]

Right.

[Glenn Beck]

So you know, I'm Just stunned at, you know, you talk about naivete. Wow.

[Eric Metaxas]

Like, that's because that's not. That's not politics. That's saving children on our own border. Yeah. In the same article, points right directly to you. Metaxas continues to marshal Bonhoeffer's work toward his project of politics as the ultimate end of theology.

[Glenn Beck]

I mean, that is a vile lie. And what's interesting, though, is that they really believe it. You can tell they believe this. And I think to myself, wow, imagine we're abolitionists. We care about blacks enslaved, being treated like scum and animals. We get involved politically because we believe it's our moral duty to stand against that. I'm here to tell you, there were people in the 19th century who would say exactly what Christianity Today is saying. Like, how dare you get political. Just have your nice little church services and let the blacks go to hell. We don't care what happens to them. Just do your nice little Christian thing. And you think, if I'm going to live out my faith, the first thing I'm going to do is speak up for those who are being treated this way. And so Christianity Today, anytime you do anything that leans toward the political, they just try to demonize you. They don't actually think, are you trying to help people? I mean, you know, so again, this idea of that we're not supposed to be politically involved, trust me, the editors of Christianity Today are totally politically involved. On the other side, they are helping, you know, the communist globalist left, either by doing nothing or if they can actually help them by helping them. So they're hypocrites because they're very politically involved. But when people like you or like me get involved politically, they say, oh, you're just a culture warrior. You don't care about God. And I think, well, you know, God's going to judge me about who I care about.

[Eric Metaxas]

I think in the last six months, anybody who is a Christian had to notice, at least to use our founders words, the divine providence that happened. I mean, it is.

[Glenn Beck]

That was such a gift. I mean, and I'll tell you something, you know, when that bullet hit Donald Trump's ear and we saw blood, that was God's mercy saying to us, do you get it now? He should be dead, but he's not. In America, you should be dead. You deserve to be dead. But I have preserved you for my purposes in history. Now go to work. And to me, it's like when George Washington survives the Battle of Brooklyn. Okay? The miracle of the fog, okay? It's a Miracle of God, they ought to have been strangled in the cradle. Liberty is over. The overwhelming 400 British ships parked outside Staten island should have crushed the Continental Army. Game over. America never comes into being. God preserves them and so they can fight on and on and on and on and we win liberty and independence. That's what just happened in America this election. It was God's extremely merciful hand preserving us so that now we can fight and we can win back the liberties that we've lost and we can re catechize the culture and teach people what is liberty, what is self government? Why should we be dancing in the streets with gratitude that God would allow us to have liberty and that it's worth fighting for and it's worth dying for? And so I think we're in an extraordinary moment in history. And let's to reiterate the Trump hating America hating liberals don't like it and they'll say anything they can. There's a level of desperation and it's.

[Eric Metaxas]

Amazing to me because I don't have any loyalty to Donald Trump. My loyalty is to the Constitution. And as long as he remains loyal to that and those ideals, bingo, I'm with him. But if he starts violating the Bill.

[Glenn Beck]

Of Rights, we would be the first ones screaming, you're darn right.

[Eric Metaxas]

Right. It's really amazing. What is Christian nationalism?

[Glenn Beck]

Christian nationalism is an invented term invented by the devil to demonize actual Christian faith. In other words, Bonhoeffer used the phrase faith in action. When you put your faith in action, the devil doesn't like it. And all of those people who are playing on his team, they don't like it. They want your faith to be in some little neutral corner that has no effect on the world outside your little church or whatever. So they say, oh, you're a Christian nationalist. You're living out your faith. Yes. When people try to abolish slavery, they, oh, yeah, they're being Christian nationalists. Why don't they just accept slavery and just do their little church service? And they said, well, because we can't, because of my faith, I need to stand against the evil of slavery. And it goes down the line. And so we're living in a time now, wouldn't it be, where those on the left have to demonize, they have to create a term because it's like, oh, you're not supposed to live out your faith. You're just supposed to have it locked in your head and it has no actual effect beyond your head.

[Eric Metaxas]

And it's amazing to me that they, that they have created a faith, a church, the planet.

[Glenn Beck]

Bingo.

[Eric Metaxas]

Or transgenderism or whatever is their God and that's their nationalism. They're not saying, oh, the planet is warming and I worship the planet. Let's not do anything.

[Glenn Beck]

Right, well, and you understand too, like these terms, they're just silly terms like nationalism, evil is evil. So if it's nationalistic evil or globalistic evil, in this case it's globalistic evil. Okay, You've got these globalists who are against the idea. I know how the idea of a nation can go wrong, but I also know how the idea of a nation can go right. They're not interested. They have a globalist agenda and they are at war. Let's be clear as Americans, they're at war with the sovereignty of America.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yes.

[Glenn Beck]

Okay? Patriots have died so that we could have a free nation. We could be a shining city on the hill for the whole world to look at and say, what they have in America. I want that. That's beautiful. My parents came here, you know, from Europe, from war torn Europe, because they thought, could we live in America? It's so beautiful. It's so amazing. These folks are at war with that America. They want a globalist tyranny, basically. And so what do they do? They create this term Christian nationalism to make it sound like nationalism. I mean, I hear this a lot where they say, oh, I'm about the kingdom of heaven. I'm not about, you know, America, I'm about the King. That's like saying, like, I'm about Jesus. I'm not about my wife and my daughter. No, no, no, I'm about. And you think, wait a minute, if you love Jesus, you're going to love your family more. But they're creating this preposterous zero sum game that if you love America, it means you don't love God. And I think, no, if I love God, it's going to make me love my country more, it's going to make me love my community more, it's going to make me love my family more. This is classic Marxism. It's a zero sum game. You have to pick this or this. That's never been the case. Those in this country, the black robe regiment, which I first learned about from you, because they loved God. They loved the idea of, imagine if we could have a free country, how beautiful that would be, how it would reflect God's values in history. So it's a totally different thing.

[Eric Metaxas]

I think that I understand it to some degree. In Europe, the European elite, okay, they don't have this, they never had this. They don't understand what makes America. You know what I mean? Those who are American, I can't excuse them for their own ignorance. I know they were raised in a school system that didn't teach the principles of America. But all you have to do is read the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, and you get it, Okay? I am proud of my country. I think we're the most amazing country. We've also been some of the darkest people in the world, of course, but we're an amazing country when we live up to those values that are enshrined in those documents. I'm not national because I love America. I love the principles of America in those documents, and that's what makes us so great. They don't understand a world without the mixing of church and state. They still are looking at France at the time of the Revolution going, oh, that's evil. That's God. No, we're not that.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, look, you understand this. You have to be rather ignorant. And they are. They don't know to push back. They don't know any of this stuff. They don't know any of this stuff that you've been speaking about for all this time with it. All your audience knows about. They don't know this stuff. But here's the good news. Many, many Americans, in large part because of you and a little bit because of me, they know about this stuff, and they're not buying this garbage. And so the question is, will enough Americans know the truth to fight against the lunacy? And I really think, especially with regard to the last election, we have just enough to win. It's kind of like saying, I always say in my new book, it's called Religionless Christianity, and I say, if you went to George Washington in 1776 and said, hey, hey, George, how's it going? You know, he would say it's going very poorly. But if Providence be with us in this cause of liberty, we will fight on because we believe that God can give us the victory. Our job is to do our job. Our job is to fight for what is beautiful and good and true. And if we don't fight well, then it's on us. And there are a lot of Americans who are just like, who cares? I don't want to fight. I don't want to take it. I mean, there were plenty Tories, there were plenty people just who didn't care. But there were just enough during the Revolution, just enough willing to fight. And that small group won freedom for Everybody. And so here we are.

[Eric Metaxas]

And that's swayed. Always. Always is always. I mean, you know, it's amazing. I don't like when people make Donald Trump into our savior. I already have one.

[Glenn Beck]

Right.

[Eric Metaxas]

But I also. I also understand how the Lord is using this guy. And some people are like, how could he possibly. Because I'm sure the Lord asked a lot of people before he asked him. You know what I mean? And he's like, oh, God, who's next? Don, will you stand?

[Glenn Beck]

Will you stand? Will you stand?

[Eric Metaxas]

That's it.

[Glenn Beck]

Yeah.

[Eric Metaxas]

He's not putting the most righteous person in. He's putting anyone willing to stand. And how many of us. I mean, that's. I think the lasting legacy you have given me is a understanding of not to act is to act and how important it is to stand, because God's not going to hold it. We have a responsibility. And it's not my church that's driving it. It's my faith in God that's driving it. It's my understanding of who Jesus Christ is and what I owe him and can never repay.

[Glenn Beck]

Correct.

[Eric Metaxas]

But I'm going to. I know he has a plan.

[Glenn Beck]

Yeah.

[Eric Metaxas]

I just. I know. I don't know what it is. That's right. But I know I want to help pave that road for whatever he's doing.

[Glenn Beck]

That's the point. And that's why I say about Washington, you do your job. You fight for what is right and true. You do the best you can. The results ultimately are in God's hands.

[Eric Metaxas]

Right.

[Glenn Beck]

But to do nothing. I mean, imagine how privileged and out of touch some people must be to think, oh, I don't need to do anything. Patriots have suffered and bled and died so that we can talk about this stuff and we can have the freedom that we have. Do you think that I need to do nothing?

[Eric Metaxas]

Hand me your phone. Can you imagine what Tyndale would have said about this?

[Glenn Beck]

Oh, gosh.

[Eric Metaxas]

And none of us read the Scriptures. I mean, few of us read the scriptures on. We have.

[Glenn Beck]

Yeah.

[Eric Metaxas]

Every version of the Scriptures. Every version in every language. Tin tail was burned at the stake for a few pages.

[Glenn Beck]

That's.

[Eric Metaxas]

I mean, the choices we make are remarkable. And how fast we forget.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, again, this is. You know, we're all on a journey. You know, we didn't ask to be born at this time in history, but the Lord put us here. Now our job is to say, lord, what do you want me to do now? And I'll do the best I can.

[Eric Metaxas]

Don't you find when my Father died. I reviewed his life, and he didn't serve in World War II. He just turned 18 right at the end of it, and he joined the Marines. But he had flat feet, so he couldn't go. Okay? So he missed that. He didn't fight in any war. And he really was living in the greatest time in America, American history. And we lived in Seattle, which didn't really have the busing issues and the black, you know, issues back and forth. And I thought, who could my dad have been if he lived in a time that pushed him up against the wall? I find. I find this time to be such an honor.

[Glenn Beck]

Correct.

[Eric Metaxas]

That we've been. We're here.

[Glenn Beck]

Correct.

[Eric Metaxas]

And we can see I'm a coward or I'm not. I mean, it's scary because you don't know what your breaking point is. You know, you don't know. Is something right around the corner that's gonna make me go, okay, okay, I give. But the time we've had, God doesn't. These things, if you're awake, they don't happen as fast as history makes them look to be. That's where most people are. Hitler's elected, and they have no idea. They didn't see it coming. And so all of a sudden, they have to make a choice, and they make the wrong choice. But some of us who are awake have had years to prepare. That must be terrifying for the other side.

[Glenn Beck]

Well, listen, I know I say emphatically, God called me in my mother's womb to write this Bonhoeffer book. It wasn't my idea. I know that. God called me to write this book for such a time as this. And when I was writing it, I didn't know that I was writing it for such a time as this. But God knew, and God has prepared me. And the fact is, here we are. We are here now, and we get to live our lives to God's glory. And what an honor. What a beautiful, beautiful thing. And the thing is, we can trust God with the details. You know, whether we die tomorrow or we live, who cares? God knows, and we can trust him. And I think that that's one of the reasons the story of Bonhoeffer is so beautiful to me, is that he lived it out. He didn't just talk about it. He was given an opportunity by God to live it out and to show us what that looks like. And that is profoundly inspiring to so many people. So, again, you know, I'm stunned that this film is out now. I'm stunned that it's as wonderful as it is, because it didn't need to be. It's wonderful and it's going to inspire a lot of people. And you know, where we go from here, I don't know, but I just. I just can't believe we're here, frankly. I can't believe we're here.

[Eric Metaxas]

More with Eric Metaxas in just a second. When you're facing evil, do you do nothing? Do you hide? Or do you have a responsibility to act, stop evil, or at least protect those around you from that evil? Honestly, I don't know why the Burna launcher is not in every school room in America, or at least every school. If you're a teacher, some gunman is starting to kill people down the hall or wherever you have a burner launcher, you could open the door just a little bit and shoot down the direction for 60ft. You just have to be within like six or eight feet. If you can get that there, it's tear gas. Yes. Some of the kids might cry, but I guarantee you the tears are going to be a lot worse if somebody doesn't stop that guy. You can use this in schools. I don't know if anybody is, but they should be. You can take an attacker and paralyze them on the floor. They're not going to be able to do anything for 40 minutes. That gives the time for police to arrive and handle the situation. Gives you time to escape and get away from that danger without killing anybody. Use it in your home. Have it in your car. If you're a teacher, ask your school, why don't we have a Burna launcher? Burna. B-Y-R-N-A.com Glenn get an exclusive 10% discount. That's Burna.com Glenn I think it's interesting that you know me. I've. I hang out with all of religions and I really love all. I mean, not. You know, there's some religions in California I'm not real hip with, but I love going to other people's services because I can. I can speak. I can barely speak English and it's the only language I actually speak, but I can speak different spiritual languages. I know what people are saying, even if the words are different. And for a long time, everybody was guarding themselves from sheep stealers, as some of the pastors say. You're going to steal my sheep. And I could break down that wall because nobody wants to be in my faith. I mean, we're like the Jews of Christianity. So I could get past some of those gates and talk to people and in the 15 years ago, it would still break down to. At the end, push it, and it would still break down to, well, we have our faith, and you're kind of outside of our faith. And these people are outside of our faith. We're now. I mean, I felt Amish recently. You know, when watching them, I'm like, you know what? That's a really good faith. Because look at how they're implementing it. And I feel like God is saying, yeah, I'm going to work all this out, guys. I'm going to work all this out. You have to be doing my work. And is that kind of what religionless Christianity is?

[Glenn Beck]

Yeah, I think, yeah. So my new book, I mean, the book that I wrote a couple years ago is called Letter to the American Church, which talks about the parallels between what happened in Germany and where we are now. And I had more to say, and I used a Bonhoeffer term for the title of the book called Religionless Christianity. And all he's trying to say, does.

[Eric Metaxas]

That piss a lot of people off?

[Glenn Beck]

Oh, you have no idea. And I kind of did it in part to piss them off, because I thought to myself, listen.

[Eric Metaxas]

And it pissed people off when he did it.

[Glenn Beck]

You know what's interesting? I mean, we don't have time to get into it, but the bottom line is this. Bonhoeffer. And again, rereading my Bonhoeffer book recently, I saw it more clearly than I've seen it in years. He was consistent from when he was in his early twenties till the day he died. He knew at the heart of Christian faith what that really is. And he was constantly trying to teach about, like, what is it really? Not just like, oh, you were sent to these intellectual theological ideas and you're a Christian. No, you have to really have this personal relationship with Jesus. It's a whole. You know, he understood that as a young man, and it got deeper and deeper and deeper. And at the end of his life and I. He's in prison and he's writing these letters to his best friend who understood him. Like, nobody. I mean, just so he's almost using the shorthand or whatever. And in one letter, he's basically saying that we needed a religionless Christianity. In other words, we had all of this religion. We had all this, like, I'm going to the Lutheran Church and I'm going to. You know. And he thought that did not stand against evil. We needed to live out our faith correct, like the saints of old, like the martyrs of today. We needed to live out our faith 24, 7. We needed to put our faith in action, and the German church didn't. And he says, if we'd had a truly religionless Christianity. In other words, all this liturgical stuff and the trappings and what I write about in my book and I've been talking about everywhere, is whom did Jesus rail against? The Hellenistic philosophers? The pagans? No, the most religious people of his day were the ones that he called a brood of vipers. You are of your father, the devil. In other words, you can know the Bible backwards and forwards. You can do all the religious stuff. Do all the stuff, and then when God sends his son into your midst, you murder him. That's satanic. He knew that all these religious trappings not only are worth nothing, but they can be marshaled by the devil for his purposes. And so Bonhoeffer saw that all this religious stuff in Germany opened the door to the devil and opened the door to the evil of the death camps. And he's saying we needed a religionless Christianity, people to actually live out their faith. And in every generation, in Jesus generation, in every single generation, there are people of all the trappings of religion, they're not. Not living it out. And so Bonhoeffer dares to say that, but it's in a letter to a friend. And all the liberal agnostic academics after his death, they kind of grab this and they kind of create their own fictionalized version of. He was drifting into this kind of secular humanist ethics. Complete nonsense, total nonsense. And when I wrote my book, I realized this is nonsense. They got it. They didn't just get it a little wrong. They got the opposite of what he was actually doing. He's talking about profound faith in the God of the Bible that lives itself out, that pours itself out with joy. And so that is where we are today. So when people say to me, well, I've got the right theology, or like Glenn Beck, he's a Mormon, his theology is wrong here and here and here. And you, Eric, you believe that you're wrong here. And let me just tell you, God looks on your heart. CS Lewis really understood this better than anybody. God looks on your heart. So you can talk all you want about your theology. God knows your theology by how you live. And so all these people that pretend they've got all this perfect theology, they're worshiping an idol of perfect theology. That's not the same as worshiping Jesus.

[Eric Metaxas]

Correct.

[Glenn Beck]

And you worship Jesus with your life. And so there is something here. There's a mystery. There are a lot of people that are Very uncomfortable with mystery or ambiguity. They want it all buttoned up. And it's like, you believe in this and this and this. You're in, you don't, you're out. That's not the God of the Bible.

[Eric Metaxas]

Churches are a little like political parties. They're to further the mission. But if the people that are running the political party are not living what that Abrahamic covenant, Abraham Lincoln covenant. If they're not living that, it means nothing. It means nothing. So the falling of the attendance in church, is that the people's fault or the church's fault?

[Glenn Beck]

I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good. I do, I do. In other words, if you've been going to church that's been doing all this religious stuff, I think people are thinking like, you know what, the world is going insane. And if you're not speaking to me where I live, you're not relevant. And guess what? Most churches, I mean, we think of in the Simpsons, the church that they go to. And it's, that's. Many churches in America are like that. Your average person, you know, struggling in life or whatever, they go, you know what, I'll pass, I'll skip that. I'll sleep in on Sunday morning. Because that's not speaking to me. Churches that are speaking to all these issues, their numbers are increasing because people are like, I need that. I can get interested in that. Are you going to stand against the lunacy that my kids are being exposed to in the public school? Are you going to stand against that? Are you going to stand against pornography in my kids schools? Are you going to, Are you going to get, you know, are you going to have this kind of muscular pushback against this stuff, Attacking my kids and attacking my. I'm with that because that looks to me like somebody actually cares. Somebody willing to live out what they say, they believe. And all these other churches that are losing numbers. What I say, because I've been speaking about this incessantly for two years. It's like when Jesus curses the fig tree. People think, oh, Jesus is so nice. He would never do anything like that. He curses the fig tree because it doesn't bear fruit. He says, like, you're done, you're over. I curse you. You wither, you die. Those are the churches that are not living out their faith, that are not living out of religionless Christianity. And I say, when people say, well, what can I do, Eric? What can I do? I say, first off, you're going to one of those churches. Get out, take Your friends take God's money and get out of that church and better that you should be watching, having a home church service or something like that, then going to one of these religious services where they kind of act like, well, this is about making you a better person and self actualization. And we don't want to get into any of that controversial stuff. God wants you to get into that controversial stuff. God wants to.

[Eric Metaxas]

God's kind of controversial.

[Glenn Beck]

A little bit. A little bit. In fact, when he came to earth, they murdered him. So that's where we are.

[Eric Metaxas]

Are we at the beginning of a great awakening?

[Glenn Beck]

I'm sure of it.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yeah, I am too.

[Glenn Beck]

I'm absolutely sure of it. And the way you see it always, it's like with George Whitefield, right? The establishment church hated George Whitefield.

[Eric Metaxas]

Why, he couldn't even preach inside anybody's church.

[Glenn Beck]

That's the point, right? They're like, no, you're not welcome here. He's like, okay, well then I'll take it outside. And so he takes it outside. And all these people had never heard the beautiful story of who God really is. They're just like, you know, weeping to hear him tell about the God who loves them and stuff like that. So all of those kinds of churches. And again, it's no different than in Jesus day, this hyper religious nonsense. God always works outside the system and it infuriates those inside the system. And in fact, I've said often that God takes a, you know, a philandering, thrice married New York real estate developer to humiliate the church, to show the church what courage looks like. People get very angry. And God does this over and over in history. He picks somebody outside to show what, you know, what he's looking for. Cyrus is an example in the scripture. And we're living in a time right now where God is going outside the church. The other day, I mean, the other day Trump goes to Madison Square Garden Garden for, you know, one of these. I'm not into that kind of fighting and stuff. He goes there, he brings Bobby Kennedy with him, he brings Tulsi, he's there and Rogan is there. And when the winner, John Jones, whatever his name is, he comes out, Joe Rogan puts the microphone in his face and the whole world hears him talk about Jesus at length. And I thought, what is happening in America? Something beautiful is happening, happening in America. And if you're not going to give God the glory in your churches the way you should, he'll bring it into the middle of a fight in Madison Square garden, his mess. The stones will cry out. We are seeing that, and it's a beautiful thing. It's extraordinary that we get to be alive at this time. Where this is going to go, I don't know, but I see God's hand in it. I don't say that kind of stuff lightly. And I think God, God wants to bless this nation. He wants to bless us to be a blessing. This is not about America. This is about the world. But he's blessing us to be a blessing. He's giving us a chance we don't deserve to clean, to go scorched earth on this satanic bureaucracy of the deep state, the unelected elites that hate America, that hate freedom. We have an extraordinary moment, but I feel like we've just crossed the starting line. It's just like Washington going across the east river and it's about to get tough. We get to fight, and it's a glorious thing we get to do.

[Eric Metaxas]

Yeah. I'm grateful for you. It's. What a great time.

[Glenn Beck]

I'm back at you. I miss you. I could do this every day. To talk to you is a joy. Glenn, I don't say that kind of stuff lightly. What a joy. Thank you.

[Eric Metaxas]

Thank you. Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.