Can Swiss negotiators seal a new trade deal with the US?

Summary

The Globalist — November 14, 2025

Main Theme:
Can Swiss negotiators seal a new trade deal with the US?

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into Switzerland's ongoing trade negotiations with the US, focusing on the economic and diplomatic maneuvering necessary to address steep tariffs imposed by President Donald Trump earlier in the year. The discussion contextualizes the broader economic and political impact for Switzerland, featuring insights from Swiss and international analysts. The episode also includes a global news roundup: Chile's rightward political pivot, New Zealand’s brain drain, French political tensions, Turkish political crackdowns, and cultural stories from Japan and Europe. The show closes with a light-hearted look at latte art with a world champion barista.

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Key Discussion Points

1. US-Switzerland Tariffs & Trade Negotiations

[03:19–10:18]

Guest: Jan Henrik Foerster (Bloomberg Switzerland Bureau Chief)

• Backstory:
  In August, the US, under President Trump, imposed a 39% tariff on Swiss imports—up from the previously negotiated 32%. This hit Swiss export sectors hard, especially products like watches.

• Immediate Effects:

  • “For a country that is focused on export… the most important thing for the Swiss model… that was problematic.”
    — Jan Henrik Foerster [03:33]

  • It was a “day of reckoning” for Switzerland, causing reassessment of international trade priorities and methods of diplomacy.

• Diplomatic Response:

  • Recognizing Different Styles:
    Swiss negotiators are discreet; “Donald Trump less so.”
    — Emma Nelson [05:34]
    Initial negotiations failed as “they weren’t speaking the same language.”
    — Jan Henrik Foerster [05:47]
  • Personnel & Tactics Change:
    Shift from President Karin Keller-Sutter to the Economic Ministry (Guy Parmelin, SECO chief Helena Artieda Hba) for negotiation leadership.
  • Direct Business Involvement:
    Leading Swiss business executives (e.g., Partners Group founder Freddy Gantner, Rolex CEO, Richemont Chairman Johann Rupert) joined the diplomatic push, directly lobbying the White House—“that was different… a group of business executives getting involved in geopolitics.”
    — Jan Henrik Foerster [06:48]

• Key Sticking Points:

  • US irritation at Switzerland’s export strength in gold refining and pharmaceuticals, leading to trade surplus debates.
  • Gold refining’s economic impact for Switzerland is modest, but is symbolically important for global trading (e.g., gold bars aligning to US standards).
  • “This whole gold refining thing was more like something that looks good on paper… overall, it has a small impact for the economy.”
    — Jan Henrik Foerster [08:22]

• Resolution Outlook:

  • Negotiations suggest the tariff could be lowered to “probably…15%” or slightly higher.
  • “If it ends up being 18%… that doesn’t make a huge difference. What’s important is that it’s going to be lower… and I expect a deal within the next 72 hours.”
    — Jan Henrik Foerster [09:30]

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2. Chile’s Political Shift to the Right

[10:18–17:16]

Guest: Javier Saguria (Professor of Comparative Politics, Queen Mary University)

• Context:
  Jose Antonio Kast, a hard-right candidate, is close in the polls and could win an upcoming Chilean presidential runoff—part of a trend reminiscent of Brazil, Hungary, and El Salvador.

• Comparison with Trump:
  “If I had to classify Kast within the ecosystem of the far right, I would definitely classify him as more of a European model… not as strident as Trump.”
  — Javier Saguria [11:21]

• Drivers of Far-Right Success:

  • Public dissatisfaction after 2019 protests and immigration surges.
  • Chile’s immigration rate rose from ~2% to almost 10% in under a decade, fueling populist rhetoric.

• Policy Implications:

  • Though Chile has a broad left coalition government, moderation on immigration and crime has already occurred.
  • “Kast has a long tradition of being anti-abortion, against LGBT rights and reproductive rights for women.”
    — Javier Saguria [14:44]
  • He draws inspiration from El Salvador’s authoritarian crackdowns, despite major differences in crime rates:
    “The perception of crime in Chile is incredibly detached from reality … Chile, in the worst time after the pandemic, had 6 [murders/100,000 people].”
    — Javier Saguria [15:48]

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3. Headlines & Notable Global News

[01:54; 28:39–29:40]

• China–Japan tensions over Taiwan remarks.
• Russian missile attacks on Kyiv.
• Canadian spy agency disrupts Iranian plots.
• Saudi F-35 arms sale and US technology concern.
• BBC and Trump: apology for a misleadingly edited speech.
• US Congress and Trump: newly released Epstein emails stir controversy.

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4. The French Press: Paris Attacks, Sarkozy, Political Security

[18:20–28:39]

Guest: Frances Collings (AP News Paris correspondent)

• Bataclan and Paris Attacks 10-Year Anniversary:
  Moving ceremonies, with victims’ names projected at Place Saint Gervais. Discussion of public trust:
  “A poll suggests that 70% of French people don’t trust the government’s ability to contain the threat from terrorism… up from 50% 10 years ago.”
  — Emma Nelson [20:50]

• Sarkozy’s Release:
  Ex-president free pending appeal after serving less than three weeks of a corruption sentence. He maintains political influence, with visits from Interior Ministry officials—raising eyebrows over political norms.

• Turkey’s Istanbul Mayor Facing Prison:
  Ekrem Imamoğlu could face over 2,000 years if convicted on politically motivated charges, revealing Turkey’s fraught politics and the West’s reluctance to confront Erdogan.

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5. New Zealand’s Youth Brain Drain

[30:47–36:06]

Guest: Natalia Sunderland (NZ freelance journalist)

• Exodus Causes:

  • “It was almost impossible to find work… you’d apply for a job along with a thousand other people.”
  • Rising cost of living and stagnating salaries at home; Australia offers twice the salaries with lower costs.

• Government Response:

  • Prime Minister advises: “New Zealanders should just go where the jobs are.”
  • Government lines: see overseas work as brain gain, expecting youths to return (though the numbers suggest otherwise).

• Structural Problems:

  • Slow economic growth, lack of clear plans to stimulate the job market, significant public sector cutbacks.

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6. Weekly News Satire: “What We Learned”

[36:40–43:06]

Host: Andrew Muller

• A humorous take on news events:
  • Cheating at a British pub quiz.
  • Fox News and FIFA awarding “meaningless” honors to Melania and Donald Trump.
  • Newly released Jeffrey Epstein emails mentioning Trump.
  • “He feels alone and is nuts.” (Epstein on Trump, read on air) [42:43]
  • Commentary on the shifting allegiances of Republican Congress members.

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7. Japan Update: China Tensions & The Penguin Farewell

[43:47–50:37]

Guest: Fiona Wilson (Monocle Bureau Chief, Tokyo)

• China-Japan Tensions:

  • Prime Minister Sanae Takechi’s Taiwan military remarks upset Beijing, leading to extraordinary diplomatic rebukes (including a veiled social media threat by China’s Osaka Consul General).

• Takechi’s Work Ethic:

  • “She only needs two hours’ sleep… not great for the skin, though.” [46:07]
  • She expects her ministers and aides to work similarly hard—raising concerns in a nation scarred by “karoshi” (overwork-related death).

• Cultural Note—Farewell to Suica Penguin:

  • Tokyo’s iconic smart card mascot, the Suica Penguin, is being retired.
  • “Turns out people are very attached to this thing and it’s being retired… there’s been absolute uproar.”
    — Fiona Wilson [49:19]
  • Merch frenzy and comparisons to Soviet-style erasure reported.

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8. Latte Art as High Art

[51:31–57:30]

Guest: Miran Rassiti (World Champion Barista, Zurich)

• Latte Art Origins:

  • Rassiti honed his craft in Milan, inspired by YouTube videos and professional courses.
  • “Without my pitcher, I feel not comfortable to design… it’s my baby.” [52:39]
  • His winning design: Four Rosettas in line. “Rosettas are like leaves… I needed to do four in a row with eight elements each… was the most difficult, but I trained so much for that.”

• Tips for Latte Art At Home:

  • Start with a good espresso and well-steamed milk:
    “For the most high-level design, you need to steam your milk not over 35 or 40 degrees… it should be elastic, not so foamy, and use before 15 or 20 seconds.” [56:12]
  • Most difficult patterns: “Unicorn, seahorse—because you have to mix a lot of technique.” [55:32]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I think there was a recognition among business leaders that maybe Switzerland needs to diversify a little bit and also strengthen other allies. It was a day of reckoning.”
  — Jan Henrik Foerster [03:33]
• “Trump and the Swiss president didn’t really hit it off. After the famous phone call, the tariff rate was higher.”
  — Jan Henrik Foerster [04:19]
• “[Kast is] not moderate in his ideas, but definitely is a moderate in his style. He’s not as strident… definitely closer to his European counterparts.”
  — Javier Saguria [11:21]
• “Perception of crime in Chile is incredibly detached from reality… Now it's at four murders per 100,000, which is very low.”
  — Javier Saguria [15:48]
• “A poll suggests that 70% of French people don’t trust the government’s ability to contain the threat from terrorism. That’s up from 50% 10 years ago.”
  — Emma Nelson [20:50]
• “It was almost impossible to find work. You’d apply for a job along with a thousand other people.”
  — Natalia Sunderland [30:57]
• “He feels alone and is nuts.” (Epstein, referring to Trump)
  — Quoted in Andrew Muller’s satirical roundup [42:43]
• “She only needs two hours sleep. Not great for the skin, though.”
  — Fiona Wilson, on Japan’s PM [46:07]
• “Turns out people are very attached to this thing [the Suica Penguin] and it’s being retired… there’s been absolute uproar.”
  — Fiona Wilson [49:19]
• “Without my pitcher, I feel not comfortable to design… it’s my baby.”
  — Miran Rassiti [52:39]
• “The gold [latte art] category is the last one… just 15 baristas in the world have it. I think I will get it.”
  — Miran Rassiti [57:10]

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Segment Timestamps

• [03:19] Swiss–US trade tensions and diplomacy
• [10:18] Chile’s political landscape
• [18:20] French press & Paris ten-year attack commemorations
• [23:33] Sarkozy’s post-prison profile
• [26:27] Turkey’s Istanbul mayor and political repression
• [30:47] New Zealand’s youth migration crisis
• [36:40] Satirical weekly roundup (“What We Learned”)
• [43:47] Japan news: China tensions; Suica Penguin’s retirement
• [51:31] Latte art world champion interview

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Tone

Analytical, occasionally dryly humorous (especially in the satirical segments), and global in perspective, with a journalistic commitment to timely, in-depth coverage.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Globalist combined hard-hitting analysis of Swiss-US trade negotiations with a wide-ranging global news tour, spotlighting political trends, social challenges, and quirky bits of culture—from Paris to Tokyo to Zurich’s artisanal coffee scene. Despite the seriousness of the main economic and political topics, the episode’s tone balanced earnest, informed insight with moments of wit and lightness. Listeners received an authoritative yet inviting look at today’s key global stories—plus some practical tips for perfecting their next cup of coffee.

Transcript

[UBS Narrator]

Craft matters in small ways like how a coffee is brewed, and in not so small ways, like how your money is cared for. Which is why for 160 years, UBS has elevated banking to a craft, tailoring unique strategies that combine human expertise with the latest technologies, all happening across 24 time zones and 12 key financial hubs. With you at the heart of it all, UBS advice is our craft.

[Emma Nelson]

You're listening to the Globalist, first broadcast on the 14th of November, 2025 on Monocle Radio. The Globalist in association with U. Live from London, this is THE Globalist with me, Emma Nelson. A very warm welcome to today's program.

[Frances Collings]

Coming up, we hit Switzerland very hard. We want Switzerland to remain successful and we're going to be working on something to help Switzerland alone.

[Emma Nelson]

Swiss negotiators head to Washington to try to seal a deal on tariffs. And how far will they get? And what will it take for Donald Trump to look more favorably on them? Also ahead in the next 60 minutes is Chile about to join the ranks of nations voting for hard right strongmen? And what can New Zealand do to stop its young and bright workers from seeking a better paid life elsewhere?

[Andrew Muller]

Plus, we learned that at one particular British hostelry, the Barking Dog in the Lancashire settlement of Urmston, there had been cheating in the pub quiz.

[Emma Nelson]

Andrew Muller recaps the week's most important news in what we learned, plus the papers and why the pattern on your latte is something that's so serious. We meet the man who's been crowned world champion. That's all coming up on THE Globalist live from London. First, a quick look at what else is happening in today's news. China has summoned the Japanese ambassador over comments made by the prime minister about Taiwan. At least one person is reported to have been killed in large scale Russian missile attacks on Kyiv and its surrounding areas overnight. And Canada's domestic spy agency says it stopped potentially lethal threats by Iran directed against people whom Tehran sees as enemies. Stay tuned to Monocle Radio throughout the day for more on these stories. But first, shares in Swiss watchmakers such as Swatch rose this week as the US President hinted that the US And Switzerland may be about to come to some agreement on tariffs. Earlier this year, Donald Trump imposed some of the toughest levies yet on Swiss imports, a punishing 39% on items which ordinarily do very good business in the U.S. well, today Switzerland's economic minister is in Washington. Will a deal be reached? Well, to tell us more, I'm joined now from our studio in Zurich on du Foorstrasse 90 By Bloomberg Switzerland Bureau chief Jan Henrik Foerster. Good morning, Jan HENRIK Good morning. Thank you for joining.

[Jan Henrik Foerster]

Thanks for having me.

[Emma Nelson]

Good to have you with us. So just let's winding back to August when this 39% tariff was imposed on goods imported from Switzerland. How much did that change the way that these two countries do business?

[Jan Henrik Foerster]

Well, that's a very interesting question. I have very fond and good memories of that day because I was actually scheduled to go on a holiday. It was national holiday in Switzerland. And, you know, the Swiss delegation came back from Washington with basically they were trying to renegotiate the tariff rate. They wanted to get it down from 39% or from 32% at the time, and they came back with 39%. That was problematic for a country that is focused on, you know, export. That's the most important thing for the Swiss model, you know. And since they've been negotiating with the Trump administration, it was very tough in the beginning, but now it looks like we're going towards a breakthrough which suggests that relationships have improved. But I think there was also a recognition like one in ban and then also among business leaders that maybe Switzerland needs to diversify a little bit and, you know, also strengthen other allies. Like, I think it was a day of reckoning. On the other hand, if you look at, you know, recent weeks, a lot of effort has been made to kind of improve the relationship with Trump. I guess there's a broad consensus that he didn't really hit it off with the Swiss president, Karen Keller Sutter. You know, they had this phone call and at the time a lower tariff rate was on the table. And she at the time then had this famous phone call with Donald Trump. And after the phone call, the tariff rate was higher. So, yeah, they didn't really hit it off. And since then, the Swiss tried kind of all, I guess, diplomatic channels, you know, involving business folks, business elite, which, you know, they kind of played their own game there and went straight to the White House. And, you know, since then, they kind of really mobilized all the diplomatic tricks to improve relationships.

[Emma Nelson]

What, what have they done to try and improve relationships given the fact that if you look at it from the outside, the, the Swiss are a very discreet, well, they have very discreet methods of going about their business. And arguably, Donald Trump less so.

[Jan Henrik Foerster]

I mean, yes, they, they are seen as discreet. And you're right, Donald Trump less so. I think they realized they weren't speaking the same language. But in terms of efforts, I mean, one is that probably I guess the negotiate, the negotiators changed. I think Karin Khelasuta sidestep. She probably wouldn't admit it, but it went more towards kind of the economy to the Economic Ministry, in this case Guy Parmelo and also SECO chief Helena Artieda hba She probably took over the negotiations. And then the other element was that some business people basically gathered and built this alliance going directly to Washington. That was different. We haven't really seen that yet. So one of, you know, one of the negotiators, they went straight to the White House. That was in recent weeks was for instance, Partners Group founder Freddy Gantner. He's a private equity founder. He started Partners Group, you know, one of the biggest PE firms in, in Europe and also the Rolex CEO. So they kind of. And sorry, Richemont Chairman Rupert so that was kind of, that was different. Right. You had a group of business executives getting involved in geopolitics and diplomatic efforts.

[Emma Nelson]

There are also sticking points though when it comes to the way that Donald Trump approaches doing business with Switzerland, regardless as to how powerful the business world sends its big guns over to Washington to try to do business. Donald Trump doesn't like the fact that Switzerland excels in gold and in pharmaceuticals. And these are huge, huge obstacles. How do we think that this is going to be organized and solved?

[Jan Henrik Foerster]

And that was the thing, right? The surplus was a problem. Switzerland always loved the fact, you know, punching above his weight. A country small but very strong at exports. Of course they have a trade surplus. And now this is going, they are going to balance out this now a little bit, but it's all a bit. It was, it was a fig leaf debate to some, to some degree. If you, for instance, look at gold, Switzerland doesn't really have a gold industry, right. We talk about gold refining, thousand people in Ticino and maybe a few other areas that doesn't really, that's not a lot of economic output, but because Switzerland plays a big role in the refining of gold, which is important for global gold trading. Right. Like a lot of these bars have been, they have to be shipped to the US to the stock exchange there for the physical underlying of future contracts. And Switzerland plays a role in just basically refining these gold bars. So they are kind of aligned with the standards in the US So they do minor tweaks to these gold bars. So this whole gold refining thing was more like it's something that looks good on paper. Now some of these gold refiners probably move some of their production to the US and it sounds Cool, right? Gold industry moving to the U.S. but overall, yeah, it has a small impact for the country's economy.

[Emma Nelson]

Finally, Jan, Henrik, just before we have to leave you, the big question is now is that what do we think the number is going to be? You mentioned 15%. Do we believe that this is now going to be the number?

[Jan Henrik Foerster]

I hope I can say it with certainty because we had put a story out on it. It's probably going towards that direction, 15%. Look, if it's, if it ends up to be 18% at the end of the day, that doesn't make a huge difference. What's important is that it's going to be lower, at least from a Swiss perspective. And you know, yesterday Trump came also out or the White House came out and saying, look, these negotiations with Switzerland going towards going into a good direction. And I think for now the tone is positive throughout and I expect to see a deal within, yeah, I guess the next 72 hours and it probably should be good for this with a huge diplomatic win, a huge success.

[Emma Nelson]

Jan Henrik Foerster joining us from Dufourstrasse 90 in Zurich. Thank you so much for joining us on the Globalist 7:11am here in London, 4:11am in Santiago. Now the Trump effect seems to have reached yet another electorate as a tough right wing candidate is poised to do well in this weekend's elections. In Chile, Jose Antonio Cast has pledged to run the country with an iron fist. He's trading slightly in the polls against a candidate from the ruling Communist Party, but it's predicted that were there to be a runoff in the presidential elections, Cast would win it. So is Chile about to join the likes of Brazil, Brazil, Hungary and El Salvador who have or have had hardline right wing leaders? I'm joined by Javier Saguria, who's a professor of comparative politics at Queen Mary University in London. A very good morning to you, Javier.

[Javier Saguria]

Good morning, Emma.

[Emma Nelson]

So is the inspiration for Jose Antonio Cast Donald Trump?

[Javier Saguria]

Not really. If I would have to classify a Cast within the ecosystem of the far right, I would definitely classify him as a more European model. I mean, it's closer to Auburn than Trump in that way or closer to the things we've seen in Spain, for example, with Avascalum, the Vox party or Le Pen in the case of France. So it's a more, I would say it's not moderate in his ideas, but definitely is a moderate in his style. He's not as strident or kind of the things that Trump has done over the past year. So I think if we have to go by style. He's definitely closer to his European counterparts.

[Emma Nelson]

And the style that he is pushing is very much one of a populist, though. And he's talking about immigration, he's talking about shaking up the economy. What situation is Chile in currently?

[Javier Saguria]

Well, Chile is a fairly stable country, probably one of the most stable and safest countries in Latin America. However, it had gone through a large scale of protests back in 2019 before the COVID pandemic, which obviously shake. I mean, it shook some of the grounds of the country. And also Chile, alongside many of the other countries in South America, has gone through a large wave of immigration, particularly from Venezuela. So for listeners who don't really know this, Venezuelans have fled the country in huge numbers in the past few years and a significant proportion of them have ended in Chile because of the country's stability. Now, for overall numbers, Chile is not necessarily the country has received the largest number of refugees from Venezuela, but this is a middle sized country with roughly 20 million people and has gone from 2, 1 and a half, 2% of people being immigrants in the country at the beginning of 2010 to almost 10% right now in the span of seven, eight years. And I think that is probably one of the main drivers of the success of the far right at the moment in the country.

[Emma Nelson]

And explain to us a little bit about the current situation in terms of the politics. It has a far left leading government at the moment. How would Chile change if it went from far left to far right?

[Javier Saguria]

Well, I mean, I wouldn't classify it as far left because it's quite a broad coalition. As you mentioned, the current candidate on that side comes from the Communist Party, but the current president doesn't come from the Communist Party. And the coalition that he rules in goes all the way from what we usually call the Social Democrats to more like far left. So it's a very broad left coalition that won in a runoff election against Jose Antonio Cast four years ago. It will be a big change, a big shift. But one of the interesting things that we need to understand is that because of this particular process that happened in 2019 and the increasing levels of immigration, Borich government. Borich is the current president, has been much more moderate than people would expect it. So one of the key examples is that his legislative record in the Congress has been around increasing regulation and increasing penalties for crime and to reduce levels of immigration. So if I were to classify the way he has governed throughout the past four years, it's been closer to a more moderate appeal. Obviously, he started in a different way. His initial position was much more to the left, but he's moved closer to a center throughout his government. So it will be a big shift to the right, particularly on issues of crime and immigration, but also on most social issues. Right. Kass has a long tradition of being anti abortion, of being against LGBT rights and reproductive rights for women in general, and we expect that to increase during his government if we were to be elected.

[Emma Nelson]

And indeed, one thing he's also done is derived inspiration from the authoritarian leader Naibar Bukele in El Salvador. And Bukele at the moment has put, what, 2% of the adult population in jail? No laughing matter. But the idea that Chile could sort of take inspiration from what is clearly an extreme leader there is.

[Javier Saguria]

I mean, Chile is very particular in one. I mean, many aspects. But one of the aspects which is interesting is the perception of crime in Chile is incredibly detached from reality. And that is something that you can observe in numbers. So the perception of crime, of victimization, of people who feel unsafe on the streets and so on, has nothing to do with the actual levels of crime in the country. El Salvador, when Bukele came to power, had over 100 murders per 100,000 people, which is the largest number we've ever seen in a country. It was the most dangerous country in the world. Chile, in the worst time after the pandemic, had six. Now it's currently down to around four murders every 100,000 people, which is a very low number even for South American standards. Now, the perception in people about the level of crime is huge. That has to do with, obviously, the rate of the speed of change in the past few years, but also has to do with the way that populists or radical right leaders, like in the case of Jose Nukas, have used his particular point to push for reform. So that's why people seem to think that the Bukele model is very successful, but they're only looking at this kind of huge speed of change, and they're not really considering the more democratic aspects of it or the lack of democracy in El Salvador at the moment. I think that that is the most problematic issue and how CAS has been so successful in pushing for this message.

[Emma Nelson]

Javier Sajoria from Queen Mary University, London. Thank you so much for joining us on the Globalist. Still to come on today's program, a welcome sound. If you like your coffee, we'll find out why making a cup of coffee, or more specifically, using the milk to decorate it, is such a highly specialised skill. We'll Be hearing from the world champion. Stay with us.

[UBS Narrator]

Craft is a matter of perspective, a unique outlook, an obsessive attention to detail. With UBS's Chief Investment Office, Houseview, we're focused on identifying the latest investment opportunities and market risks to help you achieve your financial goals. So you get the big picture broken down into thought provoking insights delivered daily and curated by over 200 globally connected, locally active analysts. UBS banking is our craft.

[Emma Nelson]

We head to Paris now to get today's newspapers. Joining us from the wonderful studio at Rue bechermont in the 2nd arrondissement is the foreign affairs broadcaster and correspondent for AP News, Frances Collings. Good morning, Frances, how are you?

[Frances Collings]

I'm very well. I have to say. It's a very nice morning. There's something quite romantic when it's drizzling with rain in Paris. On a morning like this, every street seems to look like a painting.

[Emma Nelson]

Wonderful. I believe you. I tried to do the drizzle in London a little less lovely. But thank you for brightening our day at least. What have you spotted in the press?

[Frances Collings]

Well, there's been a lot of coverage, obviously of the 10 year anniversary of the attacks on Paris on the Bataclan and on the various cafes around town that night, which obviously shocked everybody so much. France does do these things very well when it comes to commemorations and celebrations. So we had some very poignant coverage dotted around the city yesterday at the start of France, because you may recall that was the start of the attacks when a bomb went off when France were playing a football game in the north of Paris against Germany. So President Macron was there laying a reef. He was also joined by Francois Hollande, who was the president at the time. Of course, then there were various commemorations at Place de Republique and on some of the terraces, the outdoor cafes where these horrific attacks were enacted and including, of course, the Bataclan. And then it culminated in a tremendously moving ceremony at Place Saint Gervais, which is near the Hotel de Ville, not far from the Louvre on the banks of the Seine, which is going to be a garden that they're going to be creating, they more or less have created, which is going to be a permanent memorial. So we had, for example, Jesse Hughes from the band the Eagles of Death Metal, who you may recall, were on the stage at the Bataclan that night. He was singing you'll Never Walk Alone, Jarvis Cocker, lead singer of Pulp, who lives in Paris, he's got his own composition. He sang that all the names of the victims were read out with pictures projected onto the church at Saint Gervais. So it really was incredibly moving. And most of the press has been concerned with, with that, with the build up to that, with interviews, for example, with Francois Hollande, who describe terrorism as a slow poison where the effects are felt many years after. And I think what we saw was certainly proof of that.

[Emma Nelson]

It's interesting you mentioned Francois Hollande and terrorism, because just glancing through the papers this morning, if you go to Le Figaro, among all the pictures of people laying wreaths and people who are genuinely still, deeply, deeply feeling what happened 10 years ago, there's a poll that suggests that 70%, 7 out of 10 French people don't trust the government's ability to contain the threat from terrorism. And this is up from what happened 10 years ago when only when 50%, five out of 10 people. And the article is suggesting that the idea of terrorism and the perceived inability for the government to deal with it has been fed or is feeding very strongly into a political narrative which is pushing, which is something that the far right have been talking about for a long time.

[Frances Collings]

Yeah, I think it's a very good point and it's probably a legacy as well, from the time where there was a perception that the authorities didn't really know what to do. Certainly around the Batter Clan, different police security bodies on different radio networks, for example, was one allegation at the time. And that the coordinated, concerted response to this could have been better, which I think is probably unjustified, because if you recall, none of us really knew what was happening. I was watching from afar, I was watching TV coverage and there was just reports coming in, mainly based on social media. There's been a loud noise at the Start de France. There's been fireworks. Could it be gunshots at this cafe? And slowly over the next three or four hours, this horrific picture built up. So I think the scars obviously still do remain. And the fact that of course, as you'll know, Emma, when you're in Paris, it is heavily policed, you'll see an awful lot of armed police wandering around train stations, around public areas. So there is this perception that anything really could happen at any time. And of course, if you think about it, we moved on in terms of the big statement attacks. It's the fear of the lone wolf attacks. It's the fear of someone doing something. I mean, what I have noticed before and since the Olympics is that most bridges and train stations near bridges and public areas have great big, rather attractive but concrete barriers which are there obviously to Protect against things like car attacks that we saw on Westminster Bridge, for example, a few years ago.

[Emma Nelson]

Let's move on to Nicolas Sarkozy, in jail for, what was it, less than three weeks now, free and back out running. There is something about French presidents who love to go running in public, especially if you've just got out of prison.

[Frances Collings]

Well, he does have a level of popularity. He likes to pop up everywhere. He kept his head down while the trial was going on, obviously. I lose track of how many trials he's had. I mean, they seem to come and go. And of course, we have an appeal pending in the latest trial, which is the allegations regarding funding from the former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. But he does. Does pop up in restaurants around the 60s etissement where he lives. And yes, went out jogging. And I was quite amused to see the videos of this because I used to live just close to there. And on three separate occasions, Saka came jogging up my street, you know, on the other side of the road. By the third occasion, I was almost tempted to say, bonjour, Nicolas, because he was a regular jogger. But he had at the time, three or four, very tall, very fluid, looked like French legionnaires cruising alongside him as he headed off to the Bois de Boulogne, the big park, to have his constitutional. Well, he's back doing that. I've noticed his security guards are not quite as big and as fluid as they once were, but even so, he's been there. He comes out of restaurants with Carla, his wife, waves to the crowd, lots of Bonjour. There is a level of popularity and of course, he believes that he shouldn't be in jail at all and that he certainly shouldn't have been jailed pending an appeal and this latest trial of his.

[Emma Nelson]

What if. What about his detractors who might suggest that although he's out on. He's out of prison, he is appealing his conviction and indeed his sentence. But as it stands, he is still. Still someone who has committed. Has committed, you know, more than one crime and has been sentenced. And. And yet that sort of. That light touch of putting on your. Your running shoes and heading out, you know, suggests a sort of. It might. How well does it go down?

[Frances Collings]

Well, it really does depend on which parts of the media like him and which don't bear in mind, of course, he still has quite a bit of influence. He was visited in jail by Gerard Damen, the Interior Minister. And interestingly, one of the conditions of being released pending his appeal was that he was to have no contact with The Interior Ministry, or any officials from the Interior Ministry, which was almost a direct rebuke from the judge, saying, you know, we don't think it's appropriate that you're having visits from high powered cabinet ministers. He's known to be close to Emmanuel Macron, supposedly an advisor, has, before going to jail, visited him at the Elyse Palace. So he's an interesting character. Obviously, I think his days in power are beyond him. You never really know. But is this the sort of country that welcomes a comeback? I think he would like to think so, but I think the country has clearly moved on.

[Emma Nelson]

A quick look at a final story, Francis, what's caught your eye? We could either go to Japan or to Turkey. Turkey.

[Frances Collings]

Turkey is my former stamping ground, as you know. So we can have a chat about Turkey.

[Emma Nelson]

Right. Let's talk about the mayor of Istanbul, Ekrem Imalolu, now facing, what, 2,000 years in prison if convicted?

[Frances Collings]

Yeah, we spoke about this a few months ago. I think it was March when you were here, when he was arrested. Very popular guy, elected mayor of Istanbul. The problem in Turkey for President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is that they have elections, and in the cities at least, he doesn't tend to prevail. When I was living in Istanbul, they had the previous mayoral election, which was lost by Erdogan's party, so he declared that they had to rerun the election and they lost even more heavily. And then that was backed up by the election of Ekram Imanolu. He's seen as a potential candidate in the next elections, in two or three years time, the next presidential elections. There is a tradition we've discussed before of locking up opponents, if you can manage to do that. The initial gambit with this was that they said he didn't have a degree, which you need, apparently, to run for political office in Turkey. Now it's been cranked up, as you say, with a 4,000 page indictment, all these separate offences, potential sentence of 2,430 years. Now, Western powers may be thinking this is a little unjust or overbearing, but the reality on the ground is that Turkey is a massively important country, geographically, politically, at the moment, more than ever. Of course, they are behind the new regime in Syria, which is now developing its own relations with the. With the Trump White House, and this is causing complications with Israel. But no one really wants to, how should we say, upset the apple cart when it comes to Recep Tayyip Erdogan when it comes to Turkey. So even if there was and there were calls from Imanolu a few months ago for Western power to protest his imprisonment. It's unlikely to be heeded, unlikely to be listened to by anyone because, of course, Turkey is so vital and they're negotiating peace as well with the pkk. So it's an ongoing messy situation for Imanolu, for Erdogan, and also for Turkey.

[Emma Nelson]

Yeah. Francis Collings at Rue Bachement in Paris. Thank you. Replete with sounds of rumbling metro trains beneath. Thank you so much for joining us on the Globalist. A quick look now at some of the other stories we're following today. China has summoned the Japanese ambassador over comments made by the prime minister about Taiwan. Sanae Takeche had suggested that were China to mount military action against Taiwan, Japan could respond militarily itself. At least one person is reported to have been killed in a large scale Russian missile attack on Kyiv overnight. The city's mayor said the airstrike sparked fires across the capital. An intelligence report released by the Pentagon says it's concerned about Saudi Arabia's bid to buy F35 jets from the United States. The report warns that China could require the aircraft's technology if the sale proceeds. The BBC says it strongly disagrees with President Trump's claim that he should be paid damages for the way in which one of his speeches was edited for transmission. The corporation has apologized, saying the clip gave the mistaken impression that Mr. Trump made a direct call for violence on January 6, 2021. And Canada's spy agency says it stopped potentially lethal threats by Iran directed against people whom Tehran sees as enemies. In a rare speech, the agency's head, the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, said his agencies had blocked attempts by Russia to illegally acquire Canadian goods and technologies. And those are the headlines on Monocle Radio. It's what, 2031 in Auckland, 7.31am here in London now. For some time now, there have been reports of New Zealand's young and talented simply upping sticks and leaving. They're not going very far either. A lot of jobs pay twice as much in Australia. But when asked about the problem, the country's prime minister replied that New Zealanders should simply go where the jobs are. So what's gone wrong? I'm joined now in the studio by Natalia Sunderland, a freelance journalist and writer from New Zealand who also left Auckland in search of employment. Good morning, Natalia.

[Natalia Sunderland]

Good morning.

[Emma Nelson]

We'll come to the big political problem in a moment and how the government is or isn't responding to it. But the reason why you left New Zealand was no Work, simply no work.

[Natalia Sunderland]

It was almost impossible to find work. I applied for dozens of jobs and it was getting to the point before I left, a couple of months before I left, where people were applying, say they couldn't Even look at CVs because the applications were just so huge. You would apply for a job along with a thousand other people. It was so hard to just even get seen. So for me, I'm fortunate. I'm a British citizen through my father. So I thought, why not come to the uk, if not to find work, at least to do a little bit of travel in the meantime while New Zealand was going through the status and at the moment, and then hopefully in a couple of years time, maybe return home to find work. That is looking like it might be a slightly longer plan with the latest news out of New Zealand, especially with unemployment figures.

[Emma Nelson]

Oh, yeah, very well grateful that you made that journey. Thank you for coming over and coming living in the uk. What's gone wrong in New Zealand, though? I mean, you've talked about a lack of jobs there, but the problem that everyone seems to be focusing on is that there are jobs but they're just not paid properly.

[Natalia Sunderland]

Yeah, well, it's twofold, so it is. There are no jobs. And there is a slowdown in the rise of salaries as well. The latest figures out for salary increases has slowed down to 2.1% from 2.4%. So if you are in a job and you're lucky enough to have one that is secure, the likelihood of you getting a payment rise is very, very slim. Whereas in Australia, which New Zealanders have the right to go work in and become residents in, the wages are so much higher, as you've also pointed out this morning, it's double. So why wouldn't you go to Australia if you could earn much more money? The thing too is that in New Zealand, the cost of living is extreme. At the moment, people are struggling to get by on six figures. If you're struggling to pay your mortgage when you're on a salary of that much and also buy your groceries, the sentiment to stay is low. When you can see people in Australia doing much, much better, you've got family members over there who are earning much, much more than you and not spending as much on their groceries.

[Emma Nelson]

So in terms of the way that they're trying to fix this problem, the Prime Minister of New Zealand has said New Zealanders should just go where the work is. That perhaps suggests an admission of defeat already.

[Natalia Sunderland]

It is, but it's also like a political line that they're taking. They're trying to be the parent that is going to tell you the hard, cold truths of reality. And for them, they're going with the line that the economy isn't doing well. They're omitting that, but they're working hard to try and get that on track. That's going to take time. So they are being realistic. Also in New Zealand, there's their culture of going overseas for a couple of years, doing the oe. Australia also does this as well, where you can go to London, you can work for maybe a bigger financial company that you don't have in New Zealand. That's seen as brain gain once you come back, because obviously you can't stay for more than three years in the uk, so you are going to eventually come home. So they see that as an advantage, New Zealanders going overseas, learning what they can from bigger corporations and then bringing that back to New Zealand. So they're kind of going with that line at the moment. Yes, go with the jobs are. Most people go overseas, overseas for a couple of years in their 20s, but they will come back.

[Emma Nelson]

What can the government do? Try to do. What can the government do to try to fix this, though? Because if the market is stuck and jobs are stuck, they will require something quite radical from Mr. Luxon and his cohorts.

[Natalia Sunderland]

Yeah, I think there is a lot of, I suppose, sentiment around that. There isn't a lot to do, but there also is not working on solutions for the economy. There's no plans for how they can bring industry into New Zealand. There's a lot of cutbacks. There's a lot of cutbacks, especially with government. They're wanting it to be lean, but being lean means that the government is a lot smaller and there's a lot more people on the market because of the short terms. In New Zealand, there doesn't really seem to be a plan for them on how to stimulate the economy and create jobs. I think there are a lot of people putting our ideas out there, but the government doesn't seem to want to back it because they don't want to be seen as using government money to stimulate the economy when it comes to the job market.

[Emma Nelson]

So can we see this continuing exodus now where you have, what, in the last year, it's about 130,000 people have left New Zealand, 80,000 of whom have gone to Australia. Mm.

[Natalia Sunderland]

That's the issue that the pundits are talking about back home. That's the fear that they have, is how do you get people to come home when they're just across the Tasman flight away. They're earning much, much more than they would back home, but they also have the right to stay there. And I think that's the fear and the unknown over the next couple of years. If New Zealand doesn't bounce back as predicted. It was predicted to bounce back more this year and it hasn't. What are they going to do? And I think that's the question that everyone wants answered back home, which they're not getting answered from the current government or past governments, to be fair.

[Emma Nelson]

Natalia Sunderland, writer from New Zealand, thank you so much for joining me in the studio. You're listening, listening to Monocle Radio. This is the Globalist. It's Friday, so it's time for Andrew Muller's weekly news roundup. This is what we learned.

[Andrew Muller]

We learned this week of a new depth of human depravity. We learned that at one particular British hostelry, the Barking Dog in the Lancashire settlement of Urmston, there had been cheating in the pub quiz. We learned that one particular team had been rumbled whispering the questions into their small smart watches and presumably having the answers whispered back to them. So we learn that there is some accurate information on the Internet. But we have never learned and or understood why anybody would engage in such shenanigans. For the benefit of overseas listeners who may never have participated in a British pub quiz, they are principally means by which middle aged men named Malcolm and Keith may get out of the house every so often often and extract some use from their knowledge of English Civil War battles and test cricket batting averages. And the prizes on offer rarely amount to more than a round of drinks or a percentage of the entrance fees, which rarely pays for a round of drinks. We learned, however, that the meagreness of the stakes proved insufficient to deter at least one cabal of unprincipled rapscallions who were rather spoiling everyone's fun and consequently driving, driving away custom by winning every week. Boo. Speak for England, Fernando. We learned, however, and much to our incomprehension, that while the pub has banned the ne' er do wells concerned from the quiz, they have been informed that they are still welcome as patrons, whereas in a truly civilised country they would simply be flogged with a knotted rope, as all reasonable people can agree. Yeah, but sticking with the subject of unscrupulous chances, awarding themselves prizes to which they are very debatably entitled, we learned that the Trumps may have cause to move some of those weird fake gold trophies off the sagging oval office mantelpiece. We learned that Lieutenant Colonel Melania Knauss of the gruff, sorry, First Lady Melania Trump of the United States was to be ennobled with a definitely very real and genuinely meaningful award from a rigorously impartial arbiter of virtue that is Fox News tonight.

[Jan Henrik Foerster]

Our Patriot Is of the Year is.

[Emma Nelson]

Someone who perfectly exemplifies that kind of.

[Jan Henrik Foerster]

Quiet courage that makes this country so great.

[Andrew Muller]

She didn't ask for or expect this.

[Jan Henrik Foerster]

Award or any award.

[Emma Nelson]

She doesn't ask for recognition.

[Andrew Muller]

People in her line of work generally don't. It's why they wear those trench coats and sunglasses and observe hotel lobbies through eye holes cut out of the newspaper. But we learned that Lt. Col. Knock. Sorry. Mrs. Trump's husband was also shortly to receive at least a morsel of the acclaim he is clearly overdue for. We learn that he was the bookmaker's favourite to receive another absolutely authentic and profoundly significant honour, which is absolutely not risible. Desperate horseshit confected out of thin air. In an obvious and indeed oleaginous attempt to retain his favour.

[Emma Nelson]

World football's governing body, FIFA, is to create an annual peace prize, which will be awarded for the first time next month in Washington, D.C. the organization's president, Gianni Infantino, said the FIFA Peace Prize will recognise exceptional actions for peace. He refused to reveal who would receive the honour at the World cup draw on December 5th.

[Andrew Muller]

And we, for one whimsical news monologue, look greatly forward to the President's simulations of humble surprise when he is presented with what will doubtless be an understated and tasteful trophy, which will in no way resemble Saddam Hussein's toilet brush. But we learn, nevertheless, that sinister forces remained intent on conniving against this prince among men by cruelly releasing, in this yet another of his many hours of triumph, a tranche of irrelevant old emails clearly attempting to imply that there could possibly be anything, even inappropriate, never mind remotely scandalous, in a friendship between the President of the United States and a convicted sex trafficker who was shopping him to the Rush Democrats on the House Oversight Committee minutes ago, literally releasing emails that they say were written by Jeffrey Epstein that explicitly, specifically mentioned Donald Trump.

[Emma Nelson]

By name and in context that we.

[Andrew Muller]

Really haven't heard before. But we learned that there was an entirely innocent explanation for all of this.

[Natalia Sunderland]

These emails prove absolutely nothing other than the fact that President Trump did nothing.

[Andrew Muller]

Wrong and that the President was holding urgent meetings with Republican Congress folk just so they could all enjoy a moment of amiable agreement upon how altogether innocent he is.

[Natalia Sunderland]

Why are White House officials then meeting with Representative Boebert in an effort to try and get her to not sign this petition calling for the release of the files? Doesn't it show transparency that members of the Trump administration are willing to brief members of Congress whenever they please?

[Andrew Muller]

A reminder that in such a context, the word brief is often a euphemism for dangle them by their ankles from an upstairs window until they come around to the boss's way of thinking. However, and at least as of this broadcast, it does appear the case that we might have learned either that hitherto loyal headbangers of the calibre of Congresswomen Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert have more senior solid moral cause than might have been previously suspected, or that they perceive first mover advantage to being among the earlier rats off the sinking ship. But on further review of the documents, we have surely learned that they are making a misjudgment as grave as it is foolish. As one email sent by Jeffrey Epstein on March 24, 2018, says of the President, and we quote, he feels alone and is nuts.

[Emma Nelson]

I told everyone from, from day one.

[Jan Henrik Foerster]

Evil beyond belief, mad. And most thought I was speaking metaphorically. It's obvious he could crack lies after lies after lies.

[Andrew Muller]

And does that really sound at all, even a bit like Donald John Trump? Well, does it? For Monocle Radio, I'm Andrew Miller.

[Emma Nelson]

Thank you, Andrew. You're listening to the Globalist.

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[Emma Nelson]

1644 in Tokyo, which is where we head now, for the latest news from Japan. Our bureau chief and Senior Asia editor, Fiona Wilson is there. Good afternoon, Fiona. How are things?

[Fiona Wilson]

Very good, yes, very nice. We're just moving into autumn here, so we're going to that time of year when everything looks lovely and autumnal. Very nice.

[Emma Nelson]

Gorgeous. How lovely and soothing. What's nothing soothing, though, in terms of what's happening between China and Japan. We now have the ambassador being called in in China, don't we?

[Fiona Wilson]

Yes, well, you know, this is a. This story's been going on for a couple of centuries, hasn't it? I mean, so, yeah, the latest round of the China, Japan, you know, they're constantly sort of exchanging insults, and the latest one is that the Prime Minister, Sanae Takechi was asked last Friday in Parliament what would the scenario be relating to Taiwan where Japan might respond with force. And the Prime Minister said, well, if China invaded Taiwan, we would have to respond. Now this is very, very sensitive because as you know, Japan has this pacifist constitution. It doesn't have an aggressive military force, it's strictly defensive. But in 2015, Shinzo Abe, who was then Prime Minister, introduced this concept of collective self defense, which meant that if a country close to Japan was attacked, which threatened, threatened Japan or Japanese nationals, then Japan would have to come to that country's aid. So she was asked about how that related to Taiwan. She mentioned China invading Taiwan and with predictable results. Anger all round rage from the Foreign Ministry in China, the Consul General in Osaka, the Chinese Consul General made an extraordinary remark on social media where he sort of talked about chopping the heads off dirty politicians, politicians which clearly referred to Takaichi. So it's been very, very ugly. And I think she's learned her own lesson. She said, oh, you know, that she thought she was just kind of sticking to the current line of Japanese policy, but clearly she shouldn't be referring to specific situations. And you know, she has learned that Japan and the US have this very, this tightrope called strategic ambiguity where it comes to exactly how they would defend Taiwan. And that's the way everyone wants to keep it.

[Emma Nelson]

Let's talk about Prime Minister Takeuchi, a woman who's clearly learning geopolitics hard and fast. But this is a woman who has in the last couple of days said she only needs two hours sleep. Not great for the skin, though. She's, she's, she's admitted, yeah, I did.

[Fiona Wilson]

Like that, that little comment that she felt her skin was suffering. I mean, she said, look, two hours, four hours on a good night, four hours maximum. I don't think she's recommending it for anyone else, but I don't know when she became prime minister. You know, this was only last month and she's had quite a month. You know, she's been traveling around Asia, she's had to host Donald Trump. I mean, it's been a brutal start by any standards, so she probably hasn't had that much time to sleep. But when she became prime minister, she said, for me, forget work life balance, I'm just going to work really hard. And you know, I think some people were very enthusiastic about that and they said, look, if you want to work hard card, go ahead. But I think the work life balance, it's A very sensitive issue in Japan, which is famous for karoshi, which is death through overwork. So I think that's another very, very tricky subject. But luckily Japanese employees are protected by pretty strict labor laws here. So nobody else will be forced to.

[Emma Nelson]

Sleep two hours a night unless you are a member of her team. Because by all accounts, she summoned AIDS to her office for a meeting at 3 o' clock in the morning to prepare for a budget committee here hearing.

[Fiona Wilson]

That sounds totally reasonable, Emma, doesn't it?

[Emma Nelson]

Yes, absolutely.

[Fiona Wilson]

No, I think that there was a slight sort of caveat to her saying, for me, the work life balance is out the window. She then basically said everyone around her would be in a similar situation. So, yes, I'm not sure how that, that circle, how far that circle goes. But yeah, I think the people around her know she's famous for working very hard. She's famous for going to meetings, following up with relentless questions. Yeah, she's an absolute workhorse and that's her reputation. She's living up to it.

[Emma Nelson]

Let's talk about another sort of stalwart of Japanese working life, which is a penguin. A small emblem of the ability for Japanese individuals to get about from A to B to get to work is being retired.

[Fiona Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, this has caused sort of almost as much fast as China, Taiwan discussions. Yeah. So Japan Railway, this is East Japan Railway, introduced this card in 2001. It's called Suica. I had to check what it stood for. It's super urban intelligent card, if you can believe it. And the IC in the middle is the integrated chip part of it. So it was one of the first of these cards where, you know, contactless cards tapped your way in. And they've had it at JRE since 2001. And there's always been this penguin on it, you know, little illustrated penguin, quite cute. I mean, I think maybe Japan got cuter than it used to be. But this, this little penguin. Turns out people are very attached to this thing and it's being retired. I think they may have said graduated, actually a very polite way of saying booted out. But from next year there'll be no more penguin. And yeah, there's been absolute uproar. I mean, people threatening never to ride on a JR east train again, which is extremely difficult. But yes, it's fans.

[Emma Nelson]

The penguin doesn't actually help you get from A to B.

[Fiona Wilson]

Well, you would think it wouldn't matter that much, but, you know, people are very attached. You know, the first adverts were like, I'm just a Little penguin. I've come from the Pole. I don't know how to get around Tokyo, but this card will help me. And it's, there's even a statue of this thing next to Shinjuku Station. There's a little Suica penguin square with a statue of it. You know, some people compared it to a sort of Soviet style disappearance that they were worried that the statue would be quietly removed along with every other aspect of the penguin. But I did notice, I mean, there's an awful lot of merch you won't be surprised to hear. This is Japan. There's a lot of merchandise connected to this penguin. I looked at the JR east website, which is a very lively merch filled website and yeah, the Suica goods are like going like hotcakes. I tried to have a look at a very large sort of human sized cushion that's shaped like one of these penguins and I was told I was in a queue. There were too many people trying to get into this particular page. So I can't spend, you know, 200, 300 pounds on a cushion shape like a penguin after all. So, yeah, I think it's, you know, it's gonna be a big rush on the merch before it's eventually retired.

[Emma Nelson]

Fiona Wilson in Tokyo. Thank you so much for joining us on the Globalist. You're listening to Monocle Radio.

[Andrew Muller]

Join Monocle every weekday and let the briefing guide and inspire you through uncertain times, always keeping you and ahead of the curve.

[Fiona Wilson]

It's devolving to a point where we're at odds with each other instead of letting our political leaders do the dirty work, so to speak.

[Andrew Muller]

Heavyweight coverage, no white noise and always delivered with a smile.

[Frances Collings]

The grey areas lead to a lot of sort of awkward conversations. And there's something the English dislike more than awkward conversations.

[Andrew Muller]

Keep your appointment with the briefing every weekday at 13:00 CET noon in London. Pierre on Monocle Radio.

[Emma Nelson]

We head back to our Xeric Studio to du 4 Strasse 90 to hear about coffee. Finally, to conclude the program, you might have heard coffee being made in the background. It is a common thing. Get du Vorstrasse 90. It's a nice open place. And I think, as we have all discussed in the last few years, a cup of coffee has long ceased to be a simple affair. And the artwork on the top of your flat white or latte has now become an enormously important thing in itself. It's become such a highly prized skill to do it though, that the world championships are held and this year's winner happens to be based in Zurich. So let's hear now from Miran Rassiti. He's the Latte Art grading system world championship winner and barista in a cafe in Zurich. Good morning, Miran.

[Miran Rassiti]

Good morning, everyone.

[Emma Nelson]

It's good to. It's good to have you with us. Now, we were going to make some coffee or we were going to try and make coffee on the radio, which is obviously going to be very, very difficult to describe, but you've actually brought in your own milk pitcher and everything. This, this sounds like you are clearly. This is. This is a very, very tricky and highly skilled profession.

[Miran Rassiti]

Yeah, I mean, without my pitcher, I feel not comfortable to design. And yeah, I need to have with me every time in every place I go.

[Emma Nelson]

What's so special about your picture?

[Miran Rassiti]

I don't know. It's just because I use it since three years and it's like it's made, it's customized and yeah, it's more comfortable for me. It's not so heavy. The grip is good and.

[Emma Nelson]

Yeah, excellent.

[Miran Rassiti]

And I just trained with this since three years, so it's my amazing baby.

[Emma Nelson]

It's your baby.

[Fiona Wilson]

Wonderful.

[Emma Nelson]

We're delighted to hear you have such a good relationship with your milk pitcher. Tell us a little bit for those of us who haven't seen what you do. You. You create the most beautiful artwork on the top of a cup of coffee. How. How did you learn to do this?

[Miran Rassiti]

I mean, I. I started. I started work as barista since I was 16 years old. So I started with my first coffees, my first theming. I started with watching some YouTube videos, and after a few years, I started my own courses in Milan, in Italy, with a professional barista. And they introduced me in this world, in this special world of latte art.

[Emma Nelson]

And when was it that you realized that you were actually really rather good at it?

[Miran Rassiti]

I realized, like, after some years I just discovered my. My talent. After like three years, I started. I started like, you know, just was my first job and I understood I can do something. When my first. The owner of the first cafe was working, he saw the talent and the passion in me and he pushed me a little bit to start with courses, with practicing. And then since I started, I cannot stop.

[Emma Nelson]

So you were in Milan and you won one of the categories for designing beautiful shapes on coffee. What was it that you designed? Design. That was so good.

[Miran Rassiti]

The Forsettas lives online because I. For every category, we had a pattern to do a design. And in my category we had the four Rosettas online Which is. Was the most difficulty one. But I trained so much for that and after was the easiest one.

[Emma Nelson]

Now this is. This is radio. So you're actually going to have to describe what that looks like for us. So tell us what it looks like.

[Miran Rassiti]

I mean, forosetas are like leaves, leaves, leaves on. On coffee. And I need to do four in row with eight elements each one. It's really. It's a little bit difficult to explain it. I cannot show you now, but we'll.

[Emma Nelson]

Just have to use our imagination. It's perfect. What are the most difficult shapes to make?

[Miran Rassiti]

I mean, usually I like to do the fantasy pattern and for me, like the unicorn or the seahorse are the most difficult one because you have to use the trifoam in the end of your latte art and you have to mix a lot of technique and. And it's really hard.

[Emma Nelson]

So you've obviously talked about the temperature of the milk and the way things are. So what actually are the perfect. So if I'm going to go home now, and we all are going to go home now and try and make latte art badly, but what do we need to do to make sure that we've got the perfect situation that we can actually have an attempt?

[Miran Rassiti]

First of all, you need a good espresso. Like without a good espresso, without the good creamer, you cannot design. Then after you have to steam properly your milk. Like it depends which kind of design you are doing. For the most high level of design, you need to steam your milk not over 35 degrees or 40 degrees, which is not good for the service, but in general over 65 degrees, it's enough. So you need to steam your milk not so for so long time. It should be elastic, should be not so foamy and you should use before 15 or 20 seconds.

[Emma Nelson]

So thank you for that. At the same time, we will remember all that. Finally you won in the black category, which is expert. There is one above that, isn't there, which is gold. What do you do to beat them very quickly?

[Miran Rassiti]

The gold one. The gold one is the most. Most is the last one. Just 15 baristas in the the world has this category and it's really hard because you have to use a bigger cup. You have to do really, really, really hard design. And I think I will get it. I will do the exam soon.

[Emma Nelson]

We wish you the very best of luck. Miran Rassiti, world champion at designing patterns on the top of a cup of coffee. That's all the time we have for today's program. The warmest of thanks to all my guests and to the producer. This is Vincent McEvinney, Laura Kramer and Chris Jermack. Our researcher is Joanna Moser. Our studio manager, Christy Evans, with editing assistance by Mariella Bevan. After the headlines. More music on the way, but for now, from me, Emma Nelson, Goodbye. Thank you very much for listening and have a great weekend.

[UBS Narrator]

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