Lithuania sounds the alarm over Belarussian balloons. Is Europe still too soft on provocation?

Summary

The Globalist — December 10, 2025

Lithuania Sounds the Alarm Over Belarusian Balloons: Is Europe Still Too Soft on Provocation?

Monocle Radio – Host: Emma Nelson

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Episode Overview

This episode explores Lithuania's declaration of a state of emergency in response to persistent airspace violations by Belarusian balloons, allegedly smuggling contraband and serving as "hybrid warfare." Discussions focus on the security implications for Lithuania—and Europe at large—provoking questions about European deterrence, hybrid threats, and the roles of the EU and NATO. The episode also covers related European current affairs and features segments on French politics, Czech leadership, urbanism trends, and developments in Asia-Pacific security.

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Lithuania Under Balloon Siege: Hybrid Threats and European Response

Key Guests:

• Andrew Muller (Monocle presenter, contributing editor)
• Hannah Lyubakova (Belarusian journalist, non-resident senior fellow, Atlantic Council's Eurasia Centre)

Timeline & Key Points

What’s Happening In Lithuania? (02:04–03:30)

• Air balloons carrying contraband (notably smuggled cigarettes) have been drifting into Lithuanian airspace from Belarus for weeks. Initial response measures included closing Vilnius airspace.
• Problem escalated—now officially a state of emergency.

Nature of the Threat & Motivation (03:30–05:35)

• Andrew Muller:
  “Hybrid warfare, if that's what this is, is extremely low cost to the perpetrator and it can have quite devastating consequences...” (03:33)

  • Criminal activity or state action—or both? Belarusian regime likely benefits regardless.
  • Disruption: Vilnius Airport closed for 60 hours in October, affecting 30,000 passengers.
  • Domino effect: Airlines like Finnair stopped services, tourists reconsider visiting Vilnius.

• Hannah Lyubakova:
  “Lukashenko is definitely, as we usually joke... opening champagne in Minsk.” (04:45)

  • Contraband smuggling by regime’s security apparatus is longstanding, now with “new tactics” involving mass balloon launches.
  • Large-scale operations of this nature in Belarus cannot be independent of government awareness.

Can Lithuania Respond Effectively? (05:35–06:47)

• Lithuania largely limited to symbolic actions like declaring a state of emergency.
• Shooting down balloons or drones over populated areas brings risks.
• Andrew Muller:
  “Sanctions... often a thing you announce when you can't think of anything else.” (05:49)

Is Moscow Behind the Balloons? (06:47–08:13)

• Hannah Lyubakova:
  “Escalations or hybrid threats... coming from Belarus and coming from Moscow are being coordinated.” (06:55)
  • Past coordination in fostering EU border crises (e.g., migration).
  • Recent incidents include large numbers of drones and balloons entering Lithuania and Poland.

Lithuania: EU, NATO, and the Limits of Deterrence (08:13–11:18)

• Lithuania appeals to the EU and NATO but options are limited.
• US deterrence less reliable for European countries than in the past.
• Andrew Muller:
  “If you are in charge of Belarus or Russia right now, why would you not [escalate]?” (08:26)
• Hannah Lyubakova:
  “This is not just an isolated prank. This is part of a years-long pattern of small, deniable provocations.” (09:44)
  • Sanctions, border closures, and appeals to international partners are main responses.
  • Military action (e.g., jets) is costly and risky; overreaction possible.

Local Impact: Economic and Psychological Effects (11:18–12:13)

• Hannah Lyubakova:
  “I think there is also the psychological aspect to that... this is a reminder that we are close to Russia, we are close to Belarus, we are close to the front line, essentially.” (11:30)
  • Balloon incursions disrupt business, deter tourism, and erode the city’s reputation.
  • Ordinary life and economic confidence shaken (flight delays, airport closures).

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Notable Quotes

• Andrew Muller on hybrid threats:
  “It is all extremely difficult, especially when Belarus or whoever is ultimately responsible... will just say, well, it's absolutely nothing to do with us.” (05:49)

• Hannah Lyubakova on regime coordination:
  “I think this is purely the two countries, the two regimes working together on something.” (07:46)

• Emma Nelson raising the stakes:
  “Belarus is sending these balloons over into a NATO country and nothing is being done.” (09:21)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Lithuania–Belarus balloon crisis: 02:04–12:13
• Czech politics (Babis returns): 12:13–19:34
• French headlines & Social Security vote, Renault-Ford alliance, Louvre woes: 20:40–30:48
• China, North Korea, and regional security shift: 32:29–45:30
• Urbanism: Canadian bike lanes, NYC office-housing conversions: 46:18–52:27
• Canary Wharf’s comeback: 52:37–57:24

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European & International News Highlights

Czech Republic: Babis’ Political Return (12:13–19:34)

• Rob Cameron (from Prague):
  • Andrei Babis, former PM, returns to power after purportedly resolving his business conflict of interest.
  • “This is really his lifelong ambition to hold this most important of jobs. Twice... and he’s done it.” (12:53)
  • Ongoing political tension with the President; potential implications for the composition of the far-right block in Central Europe.

French Headlines (20:40–30:48)

• Michele Barbaro (AFP):
  • Social Security bill passes—tenuous government survival.
  • Renault-Ford electric car alliance responds to Chinese competition.
  • Louvre struck by scandals, security lapses, and labor strife.
  • Nicolas Sarkozy’s “prison memoirs” mocked for tone vs. reality.

Asia-Pacific: Australia’s Teen Social Media Ban & Northeast Asia Security (32:27–45:30)

• Katie Silver (on Australia):
  • New law bans under-16s from social media amid global scrutiny; government touts health benefits despite “sense of grief” among teens.
• Robert E. Kelly (Busan Univ.):
  • China drops “denuclearization” language in North Korea policy for first time in decades.
  • “The Chinese have given up on that, which kind of suggests that they’re really not going to make much of even the minor effort they’ve made in the past.” (37:11)
  • Raises prospects of further North Korean nuclear advances and regional arms race.

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Urban Affairs: Cities Reinventing Themselves

Canadian Cycling Study & Active Transit Push (46:18–49:48)

• Research from British Columbia reveals bike commuters favor routes close to home with multiple amenities, aiding city planners in creating safer, more popular infrastructure even in harsh weather.

NYC Office Conversions (49:48–52:27)

• New York accelerates office-to-residential conversions amidst post-pandemic vacancy—12,000 new units expected, with 3,000 affordable housing.

Canary Wharf’s Reinvention (52:37–57:24)

• Carlotta Rubella (Monocle):
  • Post-pandemic, Canary Wharf pivots to become a “destination for all,” not just finance.
  • Private investment key: “£7 billion… new developments, refurbishing of offices, conversions into residential buildings...” (55:41)
  • Noteworthy: Visa relocating European HQ, surrounding amenities expanded, HSBC returning after wavering on exit.
  • Main challenge: balancing redevelopment with keeping current tenants and vibrancy.

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Summary Takeaways

• The balloon crisis is emblematic of how “hybrid warfare”—cheap, plausible deniability actions—can test European resilience and reveal the limitations of current security arrangements.
• Lithuania’s predicament underscores broader European anxieties: Is the EU or NATO ready to counter persistent, ambiguous provocations? Reliance on US backing is less certain than before.
• Across the continent, political and economic adjustments are ongoing—political returns (Babis in Czechia), economic alliances (Renault-Ford), cultural tremors (Louvre scandals), and urban transformations (NYC, London).
• Internationally, Asia’s security environment is shifting as China signals acquiescence to North Korea’s nuclear status, raising stakes for South Korea and Japan.

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Memorable Quote of the Episode

“This is not just an isolated prank. This is part of a years-long pattern of small, deniable provocations.”
— Hannah Lyubakova (09:44)

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For Listeners Who Missed the Broadcast

If you want to understand how low-level, ambiguous threats can unravel border security and European unity—and why decisive answers remain elusive—this episode details the latest on eastern provocations and the West’s struggle to adapt, with insights bridging the local, continental, and global.

Transcript

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[Emma Nelson]

You're listening to the Globalist, first broadcast on 10th December 2025 on Monocle Radio. The Globalist in association with U.

Live from London. This is the Globalist with me, Emma Nelson. A very warm welcome to today's program. Coming up, Lithuania adopts a state of emergency after air balloons continue to drift into its airspace from Belarus. We'll have the latest also ahead in the next 60 minutes.

[Rob Cameron]

Hi, Emma. I'll be talking about Andrei Babis, who's just been appointed the new Czech Prime Minister after persuading the President that he has a solution to his conflict of interest problem.

[Emma Nelson]

More from our man in Prague, Rob Cameron. He'll bring us the latest from the Czech Republic as the battle between the far right and the centre grips the country's politics. We'll hear the latest climate news, go through the papers here in London and ask could the financial district, Canary Wharf here in London be about to make a major comeback? That's all coming up on the Globalist with me, Emma Nelson.

First, a quick look at what else is happening in today's news. Officials say almost 300,000 people have now been forced from their homes in Thailand and Cambodia as the border conflict there escalates. Brazilian lawmakers have approved a reduction in the length of the prison sentence handed to the former president J. Bolsonaro. And Ukraine and Europe are to reveal what's been described as refined documents on a peace plan to end the war with Russia. Stay tuned to Monacle Radio throughout the day for more on these stories. But first, what began as an ostensibly harmless irritation has become a major problem for Lithuania. For some weeks, not months now, air balloons carrying booty, illegally smuggled cigarettes have been floating across from Belarus into Lithuanian airspace. At first, short term measures were taken. The airspace above Vilnius was closed, disrupting flights. But now the problem has become serious enough for Lithuania to declare a state of emergency. Joined now by Monocle presenter and contributing editor Andrew Muller and from our Paris studio by Hannah Lyubakova, who's a Belarusian journalist, political analyst and non resident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Centre. Good morning to you both. Good morning Andrew, let's begin with you. When, when this started, it seemed it had an almost comic element to it with packets of cigarettes floating over into Lithuanian airspace. That was a low level annoyance, irritating. So why up the stakes now?

[Andrew Muller]

I mean, they've upped the stakes to get a response. It's what this is about. It's obviously unclear and willfully so, whether this actually is straight up and down criminal activity, I.e. cigarette smuggling, or actual hostile action conducted with the connivance of Belarus government. There is of course the possible answer. Why not both? But the thing with hybrid warfare, if that's what this is, is that it is extremely low cost and extremely low to the perpetrator and it can have quite devastating consequences for the. The entity on the receiving end. Vilnius Airport, which is Lithuania's major airport, was closed for 60 hours in October alone. That affects 30,000 passengers. And that has ripple effects. We've already seen Finnair closing its evening service to Vilnius because airlines don't want to take risks with this kind of thing. And people will read about this and start to wonder. It's worth the hassle of trying to take their weekend city break in Vilnius when there's a whole other continent of cities they can choose where this won't be a problem.

[Emma Nelson]

So, Hannah, whatever is being done seems to be working.

[Hannah Lyubakova]

Yes, I think to some extent. I think Lukashenko is definitely, as we usually joke, as we usually say, is opening champagne in Minsk, because these are indeed very low cost operations for the regime in Belarus. Whether of course this is controlled and to what extent is this controlled by regime? This is a question. But contraband smuggling of cigarettes, this is not a new phenomenon. And we know that the KGB and security forces are behind them now. In the past months we have seen that they've changed their tactics, they've changed their strategy. Now they're sending these balloons there. And of course we know also that in Belarus, which is a dictatorship, sending en masse such balloons, hundreds of them, right, in the past year, this just cannot go unnoticed. I think the regime is perfectly aware.

[Emma Nelson]

Of what's happening and what therefore can the Lithuanians do? Mark.

Andrew, just thinking a little bit about the fact that this state of emergency, what does that actually practically mean on the ground?

[Andrew Muller]

I mean, I think state of emergency is one of those things you sort of announce, so it can sound like you've announced something, but the reality is there is not a great deal they can do. And that's why things like this work. We have seen some suggestion that the EU will impose some sort of sanctions on some or other Belarusian entities or individuals yet to be named. But sanctions, again, are just often a thing you announce you're going to do when you can't think of anything else. We've heard from Lithuania's prime Minister that they may start shooting these things down. But the trouble is, if you start shooting down balloons, drones, whatever, over your own country, that can cause a lot more problems than it solves. It is all extremely difficult, especially when Belarus or whoever is ultimately responsible, because there is obviously, of course, a fairly close tie between Minsk and Moscow will just say, well, it's absolutely nothing to do with us.

[Emma Nelson]

And that is an absolute masterstroke, isn't it, Hannah, that any connection with Russia is absolutely absent from the face of it?

[Hannah Lyubakova]

Well, yeah, I think we cannot say for sure, again, whether this is coordinated between Minsk and Moscow, but I think escalations or hybrid threats in general coming from Belarus and coming from Moscow are being coordinate. We have seen in the past years the escalation of the migration crisis on the EU border and migrants coming from the Middle east and some other countries trying to get to the eu. And this is definitely something that was coordinated by the regime in Minsk and potentially with Moscow. Right. So this is something that it is in their interest. And I don't think that after almost, what, four years after the full scale invasion, we can say that the regime in Belarus is just acting independently, that doing something.

Just by themselves. I think this is purely the two countries, the two regimes working together on something. Right. And in this regard, these are either drones, right, hundreds of them.

Making some incursions in the past months, both into Poland, but also Lithuania as well. So, yeah, definitely these are not just drones coming from all of a sudden from Belarus.

[Emma Nelson]

We cannot say that, Andrew, looking at the options that Lithuania now has, you'd mentioned that shooting stuff down is going to cause more problems than perhaps solve them. So where does it look for help?

[Andrew Muller]

Well, again, this is something they will be frantically trying to figure out. They will, of course, look to the eu. And as I was saying, there have been some suggestions that the EU will impose still further sanctions on Belarus, about which it's very hard to imagine Belarus will care in the slightest. But this reflects, I think, part of the wider problem that not just Lithuania, but every European country now has is that there was a time when they might have appealed to the United States to get fairly heavy with whoever was menacing them. And that is no longer an assumption that Lithuania or any other European country can make. That being the case, if we assume that Vladimir Putin and Alexander Lukashenko are reading the same newspapers as everybody else. It seems reasonable to expect that there will be more of this. Because if you are in their position, that is, if you are in charge of Belarus or Russia right now, why would you not?

[Emma Nelson]

And building on that a little bit, Hannah, we have, you know, obviously the allegations or claims or thoughts there that Europe isn't stepping up enough. But also we have the fact that Lithuania is a member of NATO. What could that mean? But not least the fact that Belarus is sending these balloons over into a NATO country and nothing is being done.

[Hannah Lyubakova]

Well, also in the past months, you know, this is smuggling balloons, right? Are not also a new phenomenon. Right. They have been happening before and I think in the past months there has been some sort of an escalation when over just a day, or rather a night, you see 60, 70, even 100 of them coming, flying, crossing the Lithuanian airspace. So that's why Lithuania began responding. At first they closed the border as a response to that, but after three weeks they reopened it. That was a gesture of goodwill. They expected that the regime in Minsk would stop smuggling, you know, sending smuggling balloons. This did not happen. It escalated in response. So now of course, Lithuania is appealing to the EU and it's been basically the end of October, November when the border was closed. So still not so much time has passed. And because this is something that is not just, you know, a sole incident, this is not just an isolated prank. This is part of a years long pattern of small deniable provocations, plus disinformation, plus cyber attacks. So now I think both the un, NATO would consider it more seriously. It's just again, what can be done apart from sanctions, right? You cannot send fighter jets to shoot these balloons, right, because this is also expensive and this is maybe overreaction. So yeah, I think all the countries, and both NATO countries and EU countries are thinking what to do in response.

[Emma Nelson]

And just staying with you, Hannah, briefly for a final question on how people in Lithuania are feeling about all this, given the fact, I believe you have been in Vilnius, you have tried to get on a plane and a balloon got in the way.

[Hannah Lyubakova]

Yes, that's true. So it took me 24 hours to fly from Paris to Vilnius essentially at some point, and I'm flying again very soon, which is kind of dreadful in a way, I think, when it comes to people and how they feel. So on one hand you have businesses, their oper have been disrupted, right, in many ways, as Andrew explained before. But I think there is also the psychological aspect to that Venus might lose its reputation for being this Baltic hub, you know, the center of economic center and so on. And for people, this is a reminder that we are close to Russia, we are close to Belarus, we are close to the front line, essentially.

[Emma Nelson]

Anna Lyubakova in our Paris studio, thank you. And thanks also to Monocle's Andrew Mullan. You're listening to the Globalist.

It's what, 812 in Prague, 712 here in London. You're listening to the Globalist with me, Emma Nelson. Now, Andre Babys is firmly back in Czech politics. The former prime minister is in post again after promising to divest himself of his interests in his agriculture and chemicals empire. Well, I'm joined now from Prague by Rob Cameron, journalist and correspondent. A very good morning to you, Rob.

[Rob Cameron]

Good morning, Emma.

[Robert E. Kelly]

How are you?

[Emma Nelson]

Very well, thank you. But Babish is back. Good for him. He will be feeling even better, I imagine.

[Rob Cameron]

Babish will be feeling even better. That's right. Some have even speculated, and it is just speculation. It's looking into his soul, his psyche, that what's really driven him in the last year or so in Czech politics is this ambition to become the first person in Czech politics to become prime minister. Twice. He was prime minister between 2017 and 2021, then spent four years in opposition, and now he's back. And some say that this is really his lifelong ambition to hold this most important of jobs. Twice on two occasions, and he's done it.

[Emma Nelson]

Just remind us how he got here the second time. It wasn't easy either at the ballot box, nor was it in terms of his competition. His own business interests.

[Rob Cameron]

That's right. Ever since he won the elections in October, Mr. Babish, who, as you mentioned in your introduction, stands at the head of a huge food processing, agricultural chemicals conglomerate called Agrofert, a company that he has built from scratch since the early 1990s and is now worth something in the region of US$4.3 billion. He's the head of that company. The president said that this is such an obvious conflict of interest that you must take a really clear decision about to resolve it. And in the end, it came down to, well, either you divest yourself from this company or you put forward someone else to become Prime Minister. But you can't do both because as prime minister, obviously you'll be taking decisions and affecting policies that will affect your own business. So in the end, he has said that he will completely divest himself from Agrofurt. It will go into a trust run by an Independent administrator. And when he ends his time in politics, that's probably going to be four years as pm, then the company will return. Not to him. It will remain in trust. It'll only pass on to his descendants when he dies. So this, he says, is the legal arrangement, and we haven't seen the small print of this yet that will prevent him from being in this conflict of interest when he does become the head of a new government, which he's still assembling, but will be now appointed the full cabinet on Monday.

[Emma Nelson]

So let's talk about this government and its formation and the fact that it places the Prime Minister, Andre Babi, on a collision course politically with the President Pavel.

[Rob Cameron]

Yes, I think it's going to be a really interesting.

Spectacle to watch how these two men compete and how these two men continue to dominate Czech politics. And who gets the upper hand constitutionally, that must be the Prime Minister. The Czech Republic is a parliamentary democracy, not a presidential one. The President is very much a figurehead, but he's one with very real power. But as so many have pointed out that the most obvious power ends at the moment that he appoints Mr. Babish Prime Minister. Now, pretty much the scales have tipped and it is Andrei Babish as Prime Minister, as long as he can, can form this cabinet on Monday, as long as he can then win a confidence vote within 30 days. I think they're talking about sometime in January. Then it is Mr. Babish who, in the words of Donald Trump, will have all the cards. And there's not really much that President Pavel will be able to do about, you know, what he intends to do, say about even the conflict of interest. If he doesn't fulfill that pledge to divest himself from Agrofurt, his business, then it goes to the courts. Mr. Pavel can't say, well, you didn't do what you said you did, so you know, I'm taking it back. You no longer pm. No, no, no. The power will all be in the hands of Mr. Babish from now on. And Mr. Pavel is instantly in a weaker, although not completely weak, position.

[Emma Nelson]

Let's look at how this now shapes the Czech Republic's role within Europe. If we look at Andre Babis is known for having founded the far right Patriot for Europe political party within the European Parliament with Viktor Orban from Hungary. We now have this trilogy, don't we? We have the Czech Republic, we have Viktor Orban in Hungary and we have Robert Fitzo in Slovenia, a sort of a band of right wing populists who are A big thorn in Europe's side. And could. Could pose problems for, not least the ability for the European Union to support Ukraine.

[Rob Cameron]

The operative word there, Emma, is could. At this point, really, I think European politics gets rather complicated and complex and rather nuanced. Andre Babi is not Viktor Orban. Andre Babis is not even Robert Fico. He's not an ideologue. He is someone who, as I've said, is immensely rich and has business interests across the continent. And he also, I think, still has some vestiges of this need to be regarded as a European statesman. He often boasted during his first time in office as Prime Minister that, I've got Emmanuel Macron's mobile number in my phone. I can call him whenever. So he likes being on the European stage. Yes, he will cause problems with the European Commission and he is going to be a thorn in the side of the EU and for European unity. But many people are saying, we don't know this yet, but many people predict that he'll choose his battles carefully. He'll be on side with the European project when it matters. He won't go head to head, say, against Germany or France, the big powers. But he is, for example, ready to openly defy the European Commission on such things as its green deal, carbon emissions policies. He's already said on the first day in office, the Czech government will write to the European Commission and say that we will not implement the EU's ETS2 carbon emissions trading scheme that comes into effect in 2027. So he's throwing down the gauntlet already to the EU, but as I say, he'll pick his battles because he knows, at the end of the day, the Czech Republic is not Hungary, it's not Slovakia, and it is in his interest, I think, to play ball to a degree with mainstream European politics.

[Emma Nelson]

Rob Cameron in Prague. Thank you so much for joining us on Monocle Radio.

[Carlotta Rubella]

Still to come, Visa has announced it will relocate its European HQ to Canary Wharf. So will that be enough to mark a comeback for the district in London?

[Emma Nelson]

Monocle's Carlotta Rubella will join me in the studio to examine why London's Canary Wharf is reinventing itself 40 years after it first set the benchmark for banking. Stay with us on the globalist.

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[Emma Nelson]

It's 7:20 here in London, 8:20 in Paris, which is where we head now to look at the headlines in France. Joining me from the French capital is Michele Barbaro, his chief editor of AFP TV Live. Good morning, Michele. Welcome to Monocle Radio.

[Michele Barbaro]

Good morning, Emma. Good morning, everybody.

[Emma Nelson]

And just remind us, AFP TV Live is, it's just, just outline what, what you do.

[Michele Barbaro]

Yeah, essentially we, we handle all the live video, live feeds of the, of the agency, which means a lot of French politics, a lot of French coverage, but you know, it actually feeds from literally all over the world and a lot of screens.

[Emma Nelson]

Michele, what for you. So having sort of triaged the most important stories, I think we have to begin with French politics and that, that absolute hammering to try and get some sort of Social Security deal through Parliament today. Day.

[Michele Barbaro]

Yeah, I mean, obviously that's the, the main story on French media today. The fact that the French government led by Sebastian Le Cornu, managed to, to live to see another day on, by winning this, this vote on a bill that's in itself not massive, it's not the, the main 2026 budget, but it's still something that has to do with stuff like pension payments, healthcare payments over time. And more importantly, perhaps from a political standpoint, it looked like until the last minute that Lucani might actually lose this vote, which means that he might have, actually, his government might have fallen, which could have been the third Prime Minister that France would have lost in less than one year.

[Emma Nelson]

And just looking at what Le Parisien is saying this morning is that they've pushed through the Social Security budget, but is, and I'm quoting here, no triumphalism for Le Cornu. It says despite a broader political victory than anticipated. So, you know, there is scope for triumphalism. It says the Prime Minister is keeping a low profile. Why would he do that?

[Michele Barbaro]

Yeah, because his political future is still very much uncertain. As I was saying, the, the main battle coming up for him is the main budget, the 2026 budget. And a previous version of that budget bill was rejected by the assembly overwhelmingly. Like in the sense that literally only one MP voted for. And it's on that, on these issues that his two predecessors were toppled. So it's still very much unclear whether, you know, he's going to survive more than a couple more months.

[Emma Nelson]

Michele, let's move on to a story that was reported quite widely yesterday, but we'll focus on an article in Lezecourt, which is there's astonishing partnership between Ford and Renault to build electric cars. It seems unusual, but actually when you think about it, it makes quite a lot of sense.

[Michele Barbaro]

Yeah, it does. And it's actually not the first such partnership that Ford.

Strikes with European carmakers. It's got similar partnerships in place in particular with Volkswagen in Germany. And it definitely makes sense in a situation where Europe in particular is being flooded with Chinese electric vehicles. I think 2025 will be the first year where the trade balance between Europe and China, when it comes to cars in general, will be negative for Europe for the first time. And so it kind of makes sense for both carmakers in question.

[Emma Nelson]

And it's that interesting thing that historically the French are very, very good at making smaller cars, which is the big problem for the likes of Germany. Germany makes big cars, the BMWs and the Mercedes of this world. But when it comes to the electric car, affordability is so important. So do we think that, you know, Renault and its wonderful Twingoes will actually have a. Will actually steal a march on China here?

[Michele Barbaro]

We'll see. In any case, what's going to happen is that Ford will produce two new vehicles that will be indeed very much in line with European standards. As you were saying, it's not just, just France, you know, Italy as well, for example, specializes in, in smaller city cars rather than larger ones. And so the deal in question is about producing two new models that will start being sold from 2028, I believe. And also, crucially.

The true car makers are also thinking about a partnership on a different type of vehicles, like vans and trucks. So it's a partnership that's deepening.

[Emma Nelson]

Now let's move on to paper reports of more problems at the Louvre. We've already had a very large, very high profile robbery. We've had 400 books.

Damaged in a leak and now we have staff deciding that they don't want to work there.

[Michele Barbaro]

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a rough time for the Louvre and particularly for its presidents. President Laurence de cas, as you say, obviously there was this high profile, highest in broad daylight in October. There's been this, indeed this flooding just a few days ago. In between, there's been another section of the Louvre that had to to close because of our risk of collapse, literally of the ceiling. And in this context, the Louvre staff are indeed planning a strike from Monday, so potentially for longer than that, over both the bad need for renovation works and poor working conditions. They say, in a context where.

Obviously renovations are essential, everybody agrees with it. But somehow the Louvre budget at the moment is not really devoting, critics say, enough resources to that. Instead, there's been a lot of talking about flashier projects such as creating a new entrance or creating a separate section for the Mona Lisa. So essentially trade unions at the Louvre are saying that the focus is not.

[Emma Nelson]

Where it should be, be and indeed. But this is a wider problem than for brand France, isn't it? Because we've seen Emmanuel Macron use the Louvre so many times as a stage for projecting soft power and also for committing to, as you say, renovate, upgrade, update. The fact is, if you have this sort of drip, drip, drip of bad narratives, how much of a problem does this cause? Or are these just temporary issues for the world's most visited museum? Him?

[Michele Barbaro]

No, I mean, I think all in all, the Louvre will continue to be the most, or one of the most visited museums. I, I'm not sure the average, you know, Chinese or American tourist will, will decide not to go to the Louvre.

[Rob Cameron]

Because of these woes.

[Michele Barbaro]

That said.

Like, labor issues is another story. Like if, if the, if the staff become really disgruntled, they can cause real disruption. There's been another strike this year over the summer and now this strike starts of course, right before the, the, the, the Christmas holiday season. Right. So that's, that's the problem when it comes to, to the Louvre. I think it's, it's a good metaphor of, of France when you think about these, these projects. I was talking about.

The Louvre, just like France has great ambitions, but it's struggling to muster the resources to carry them out.

[Emma Nelson]

Finally, let's enjoy the moment that Nicolas Sarkozy issues, releases his book, his prison memoir, in jail for less than three weeks. And it's taken him not much longer than that to actually make sure that his book has been published. You want to draw our attention to an article in Politico which really, really goes to town and it a very, very juicy read.

[Michele Barbaro]

Yeah, it's a satirical piece on Politico Europe which kind of points out that the tones that Sarkozy has struck in both his book and in interviews he's done is a tone you would expect more from Nelson Mandela than from, you know, somebody who spends 20 days in a, in a prisoner he himself compared to a low level, two star hotel with two bodyguards in the cell next to his. And indeed, of course, this is, this has been a very contentious, divisive case and particularly jailing of, of a former French president. Sarkozy is still a massively powerful and influential figure in in French politics. His camp almost unanimously sided with him in, in, in in an outrage over the.

But some commentators, as I say in France and abroad are also noticing that.

The tone that Sarkozy is striking is not really justified by what actually happened here. Personally, I always find quite funny, if I may, when politicians on the hard right who build their careers on being tough on crime. Sarkozy back in the day campaigned saying that he would literally clean up. That's the word he used the, you know, France's crime ridden suburbs. It's quite interesting when after just a few days in prison they completely change tack and they become all focused on how tough and bad prisoners.

[Emma Nelson]

It won't stop us from buying his book. Michele Valvero, thank you so much for joining us on the line from Paris. You're listening to the Globalist live on Monocle Radio.

Now here's what else we're keeping an eye on today. Officials say almost 300,000 people have now been forced from their homes in Thailand and Cambodia as the border conflict escalates. Violence intensified after a ceasefire broke down on Monday. Both countries have accused the other of breaching the peace. Brazilian lawmakers have approved a reduction in the length of the prison sentence handed to the former president Jair Bolsonaro. Last month, Bolsonaro scenario began serving a 27 year sentence for unsuccessfully plotting a coup against his successor, President Lula. His lawyers have requested his removal from jail to a hospital for medical reasons. Ukraine and Europe are to reveal what's been described as refined documents on a peace plan to end the war with Russia. Kyiv is under pressure from the White House to secure a quick peace, but is pushing back on a US Backed plan proposed last month that is seen to favorize Moscow. And Finland has acquired hundreds of drone jammers and detectors as countries on NATO's eastern flank strengthen their defences against Russia. There's been a rush among NATO countries to build counter drone capabilities since 20 drones entered Polish airspace in September and were shot down. And those are the headlines on the Globalist.

[Robert E. Kelly]

Foreign.

[Emma Nelson]

32 in Canberra at 8.32am in Zurich. Now from today, if you're under 16 and Australian, you won't be able to use social media such as Tick Tock, Facebook and Snapchat. A ban has come into force in order to protect young people from harmful influences. And the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has encouraged the Christmas holidays to be spent learning a new musical instrument, reading the book, gathering dust on the shelf or just going out to play. Well, I'm joining joined now from Sydney by Katie Silver, who's an Australian journalist and broadcaster, including for cnn. Good afternoon, Katie.

[Katie Silver]

Good afternoon.

[Emma Nelson]

Well, what it's, it's nearly dinner time where you are at the moment, half past six in the evening. Is Australia populated around the dinner table this evening by, by millions of angst driven teens who can't get on their mobile phones?

[Katie Silver]

Yeah, I, I'm, I'm lucky that I don't live with one because I can imagine, you know, the conversations that we've been hearing today is really about grief. So I can imagine today there's a lot of kind of shock that has actually come into effect and I think a lot of people are sort of from, from what I've seen, a lot of them are talking about how they kind of log on, expect it to be normal and then see, I guess something that they're so used to and there's a big part of their life go from their lives. So there has been certainly a sense of grief amongst a lot of the people that I've been hearing from and.

[Emma Nelson]

Speaking to, which is incredible given the fact that the way that this has been billed is as a positive, beneficial thing for the well being of young people. People.

[Katie Silver]

Absolutely. It's been seen and many psychologists are backing that, you know, the ideas of the harm the addiction comes to social media. It's been well backed by a very vocal group of parents who lost their children because of social media. So it is definitely seen as something that will ultimately be of benefit. And in fact a number of sort of 18 to 20 year olds were surveyed and all felt that actually it would have potentially been good for them as they were growing up, as they were in adolescence, for example, saying, I heard, for example, LGBTQ people saying like this, this means that they are going to lose the ability to see the community that they have and that they have access to through social media and they won't have that.

[Emma Nelson]

But how much harm does the Australian government genuinely believe that young people going online is actually doing?

[Katie Silver]

I think significant, I think, I mean, I think many psychologists also say that, that it not necessarily going online but that pressure when it comes to social media. Of course seen in the UK earlier this year that that Netflix film series Adolescence really drew attention to that potentially the implications when it comes to social media, kids spending so much time on it, particularly with it being on their phones, in their pockets and really something that they're obsessed, obsessed with. And I think the government did see that as being a big problem. And there has been a big global conversation about how you can govern Social media, particularly when it comes to young people and such, little, I guess, enforcement when it comes to any kind of.

Youth standards and young people being able to access the platform.

[Emma Nelson]

Other countries are watching this now and are seeing if this is a, you know, if this is a dynamic experiment being held in real, in real time. How much does Australia realise, actually, that the whole world is watching?

[Katie Silver]

We've heard, for example, from Anthony Albanese, Australia's Prime Minister today, saying it's a very proud day to be the Prime Minister of Australia because it is captivating the eyes of the world. I just watched, for example, the 6pm news here in Australia and it was all about international response to this. So, of course, there's countries from Malaysia, Denmark, Spain, New Zealand, all of whom have said that they're looking at this model and then they're potentially looking at running similar legislation here. And it is interesting when we talk about that economic impact on tech giants, we understand very little advertising from under 16. But the issue is the pipeline. It disrupts the pipeline of future users and that's one of the big problems for big tech in.

[Emma Nelson]

Katie Silver, thank you so much for joining us on the line on Monocle Radio.

Now let's look at China's latest Defense and Arms control white paper. It has removed the phrase denuclearization of the Korean peninsula for the first time in almost two decades. Instead, Beijing now emphasized what it calls a political solution. And it's a shift some are seeing is a tacit acceptance of North Korea's nuclear status. Well, to tell us more, I'm joined by Robert E. Kelly, professor of Political Science at Busan National University. Good afternoon, Robert. Where it's at what, just coming up to 20 to 5 in the afternoon?

[Robert E. Kelly]

Yes, it is. Thank you for having me.

[Emma Nelson]

Good to have you. Robert, explain to us what, what this change is, that it's. It's a small change in terms of the amount of words used, but the effects are profound.

[Robert E. Kelly]

Yeah, so it's probably a purposeful omission. Right? I mean, nobody forgets something like that because we've been talking about North Korea's nuclear weapons, weapons here in East Asia for two decades. And traditionally, the boilerplate language, both from China and from the US and, and other local partners, South Korea, Japan and so on, is, you know, we're committed to denuclearization. You know, we got to work with them, with the North Koreans on this. They're violating the UN Security Council resolutions, which is correct, by the way. Technically, the program is illegal and, you know, that's been Sort of the basis of the sanctions and trying to sort of blunt the North Korean efforts here for 20 years. Not that it's worked terribly well, but you know, the problem program could be even worse. Worse and without them. And the Chinese have given up on that, which kind of suggests that they're really not going to make much of even the minor effort they've made in the past. And that's disappointing because, you know, if we take all the shackles off the North Koreans and the program gets even larger than it already is. And so I'm concerned about that. I think it's problematic.

[Emma Nelson]

Why is it, why have they chosen to do this now?

[Robert E. Kelly]

Well, the Chinese have never been a good partner on North Korean denuclearization anyway. Right. The sanctions have been unpleasant place against the North Korean since 2006. That's our primary tool for blunting the North Korean nuclear and missile march. And the Chinese have always been pretty bad about enforcing those sanctions. I've actually flown into Pyongyang from Beijing myself and I have seen sanctions violations just out there in the open. People just walk right from duty free in the Beijing airport right onto the plane in North Korea with like bags of like toasters and liquor and cigarettes and I mean it's just like out and brazen in the open.

And so they've always kind of been willing to tolerate, it appears, a North Korea nuclearization, a nuclear North Korea rather than a North Korea on the brink of collapse or a weakened North Korea and that it seems like they've all, they've just kind of decided to, to accept that, that trade off, that it's better to have North Korea with nuclear weapons than, than a weakened North Korea which might collapse before for the south.

[Emma Nelson]

And the US Just explain to us though that, that, that incredible image that you have of the, you know, all BET positions, etc. When you, when you get on the plane with your toasters, what does that suggest about how much, how much does Pyongyang actually need Beijing's permission in all this?

[Robert E. Kelly]

Yeah, permission's a good word because the relationship is kind of permissive, which is to say the North Koreans aren't going to listen to the Chinese and they're going to do it anyway. Right. The problem is that the Chinese, the Chinese make this North Korean behavior even more permissive by not really enforcing the sanctions, by not trying to sort of blunt the, the new, the nuclear march anymore. I think it's pretty established that even if the Chinese were really sealing the border and really, really cracking down the North Korean Monies circulating in East Asian banks. The North Koreans probably still would have gotten to the weapons, but they would have fewer, they'd probably work less well, they wouldn't have good guidance and stuff like that when it comes to the actual missiles. They wouldn't have nearly as many trucks that transport the missiles around. Mobility is a big thing for the North Koreans. Right. So in other words, the problem wouldn't be solved. North Koreans wouldn't be at zero, but they will be less advanced than they are. And this is where we really need Chinese cooperation. And you know, we've truly the Americans, you know, we've tried to get the Chinese to come around on this for a while. We're constantly talking and talking and talking and talking, you know, trying to sort of argue to the Chinese, you know, look, I mean, if you guys don't help us, the North Koreans are going to a full blown arsenal. They're going to have a full spectrum arsenal by like 2040 or something like that. Is that what you really want? And you know, for a while the Chinese kind of said, well, you know, not really. You know, we agree with you. We don't want this to sort of slip the reins and really get out of control. And it seems like, like with this language now, they just kind of accepted that.

It'S just preferable to have North Korea sort of go its own way on nukes than to really crack down on North Korea, which might induce regime instability and stuff like that. And the north, that the Chinese just want that even less apparently than a nuclearized North Korea.

[Emma Nelson]

So in that context, Robert, how long will it be before that full blown nuclear arsenal of which you speak actually materializes in North Korea?

[Robert E. Kelly]

Well, the estimates are that North Korea probably has about 100 bombs at the moment. There's a lot of debate exactly on what they have, But I think 100 is probably correct. The perception is that they can build about eight a year. Again, it depends, you know, if the Chinese have completely given up on sanctions and doors are just wide open. And of course, it's easier for the North Koreans to build more. I think the Chinese, the North Koreans will have an arsenal the size of say, Britain or France in 10 to 15 years by 2040. Right. So yeah, 10 to 15 years. Years. And they've got lots of missiles too. Right. I mean, that's a whole nother element of it. Right. They've really sort of dug. Spent a great deal of money on actually building vectors missiles to get those bombs to, to certain places. Right. I mean, that really does look like they're going for a full blown program. Right. They don't just want to be some minor nuclear power. They want to be on par with, with the Brits and the French.

[Emma Nelson]

Now let's look at the way that the rest of the world can dance around this. I mean, you've mentioned before for how other countries have attempted to influence China to, to ensure that China acts as, as the, the voice that goes to Pyongyang and says, please just, just let's put guardrails here. But the fact now that now China has gone, and some might argue actually that this was, it was a, it was a fool's game to try and get China to do anything that it doesn't want to do.

[Robert E. Kelly]

Right. No, I, I accept that. I mean, I've, I, I fully accepted the Chinese. These were never particularly great cooperative partners on this. But my argument has always been that the route to Beijing goes through or route to Pyongyang goes through Beijing because China's really the only country with any influence. Not saying that North Koreans, anybody has much influence over North Korea, they're going to do their own thing. We know the North Koreans are just sort of like, we don't care what the rest of the world thinks. Come hell or high water, we're going to do what we want. Right. North Korea's acted like that for decades. But if there's any one country that has some leverage, it's China, which has been an ally of North Korea, Korea since the 60s. Something like 90 of North Korea's international trade goes through China. A lot of North Korean illicit monies are stuck in Chinese banks. You know, we don't know exactly Right. Because a lot of that sort of black market and gray market, but we believe so. So if anybody has any leverage over North Koreans, it's the Chinese. It's not the Americans, not South Korea, it's not Japan, it's not the European Union or anything like that, it really is, is the Chinese. And so we always kind of, I feel like we always have to keep coming back and back and back, back because to the Trent, to China because they're really the only partner that can help us with this. And it's just so disappointing to see them just give it up completely. I mean, you know, they've been signaling for a while they weren't really ever going to take it that seriously. But I mean, at least there's some kind of commitment in print. And that's just gone now, I guess.

[Emma Nelson]

So if you are just about to have your, you know, Your, your late afternoon whatever in Seoul or in, in Tokyo, what should be the reaction from those in power there to what's just happening, happened?

[Robert E. Kelly]

Yeah, I, I, I think, I think if you're, if you're a South Korean sort of strategist, you're thinking, okay, you know, the North Korean nuclear program is, is here to stay. There's not going to be really any kinds of constraints on it really whatsoever. The Chinese aren't going to try to stop the importation of necessary technologies and parts and steel and things like that. The stuff the North Koreans need to build more and more and more. And so at some point you think, look, you know, arms control, denuclearization, negotiation. Negotiation is just out the window. You know, the most important part for North Korea has given up on this. They're just checked out. And so we have to go off and do our own thing, which probably means a substantial military buildup in both South Korea and Japan to counter the spiraling North Korean arsenal. It could mean nuclearization of South Korea, which is something that has got actually pretty strong support here in South Korea. I think the North Korean program has also sort of spurred on the quiet debate about nuclearization in Japan. Man, you know, this is why I wonder if the Chinese actually want to do this, right? Because it seems to me that the Chinese kind of like don't expect anybody in the region kind of react as the world's most terrifying country. North Korea. It's an Orwellian tyranny, right? As this Orwellian tyranny builds nuclear weapons, it seems like the Chinese expect everybody to just kind of accept it and that's just not going to happen. Right? So, you know, the answer to your question is, you know, what are people thinking in Seoul and Tokyo? It's like, oh my God, we got to build these things too. We got to build a lot of missile defense. We got to build, you know, long range strike. We have to start thinking about preempting North Korea, hitting them first before they launch their stuff. Maybe we should build our own nuclear weapons. I mean, it just seems to me the Chinese just don't, they just expect everybody to take it. And that's not going to happen, Right. Japan and South Korea are very wealthy and they're going to build up in response. So you're looking at an arms race and I. Is that in China's interest? I don't think so, but here we are.

[Emma Nelson]

Robert E. Kelly, professor of Political Science at Busan National University. Thank you so much for joining us on the Globalist.

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[Emma Nelson]

Time now for a roundup of the latest news from the world of urbanism. I'm joined now from Edmonton in Canada by Monocle's contributing editor, Sheena Rossiter. Good evening.

[Sheena Rossiter]

She Sheena, and good morning to you.

[Emma Nelson]

Tell me what's on the list today.

[Sheena Rossiter]

Well, so a first thing that's really interesting is some research that's coming out of the University of British Columbia, Okanagan, where one research looks at how bike lanes are used in the city. Now this may not sound significant, but what really makes it interesting is what this could really mean for planners. So what these researchers, they modeled real world bike tours and how they take place across the Okanagan, which is an interior region that sits just inside an area that's rather large inside of Vancouver. It's on the Okanagan Basin. It's very beautiful area, known for its orchard and vineyards. And what research did was they looked at the cycle paths in that area, how they were shaped, the distance and the time that the cyclists were out on these paths. And they looked to see how long they stopped for also along the way.

[Emma Nelson]

And what did they find?

[Sheena Rossiter]

Well, typically the cyclists stay close to home, obviously shorter routes and making multiple stops in areas is what kind of favors them. So they're tending to go to areas where there's nearby amenities. So things that like if they're stopping for coffee or going to work or for groceries or different things like that. Obviously, as I mentioned, proximity plays a key piece here since cyclists want to cycle a little bit closer to home. And this is important for planners because it's really looking at built environment factors such as the number of nearby activities and the ratio of bike lanes to the roads and how that's going to connect in the area. So this was research that was done by an association associate professor, Dr. Fat Me, who was the professor of civil engineering along with a doctoral student, Bajoi Saha. And it was published in the Journal of Transport Geography.

[Emma Nelson]

So explain to us why this is actually going to help city planners, especially in Canada when spaces have to be used for different things at different times of year.

[Katie Silver]

Yeah.

[Sheena Rossiter]

So it's curious why would we be so interested in cycling in Canada? Whereas as I talk to you right now it's -10, 20 degrees Celsius outside where I am right now. But there still is winter cycling. And there is this huge push for active transportation around cities. In fact, the government of Canada has allocated $3 billion annually starting in the 2026, 2027 year for permanent public transit programs under the Canada Public Transit Program Fund. And this was already in addition to funding that started several years ago, back in 2021, when they successfully launched the active Transportation Fund. So across Canadian cities, what they're looking to do is to get more active transportation just to get people out, either getting to places through walking, running, cycling, skateboarding, or you know, even cross country skiing. And in order to make this more popular, people need, need to feel safe when they're on the roads. So they're basically showing ways to build safer infrastructure in order to build these more active transport habits among Canadians, despite rain, shine or snow.

[Emma Nelson]

Let's talk about a different kind of building that of homes. And let's head towards New York because there is that age old problem, isn't there, of how to convert no longer urban offices which are no longer used into housing. It's so tricky to do.

[Sheena Rossiter]

Exactly. And this has been a long question that some developers have even said that it's just simply easier to tear down a building to have it start all over again. Because of course, these old office spaces aren't retrofitted to be homes. But New York City, which is a really unique market because, because obviously it's a very densely populated city, they are looking to build some 12,000 new apartments and they're converting those from old office buildings that haven't really recovered since the pandemic. So even though people are going back to office and a lot of companies are getting people back to the office, the habits of COVID still live large and vacancy rates haven't rebounded to the pre pandemic levels that they have. So a push from lawmakers in New York was really what was needed to get this office to housing conversions. So of those 12,000 apartments that are looking to be created from these old office buildings, about 3,000 of them will be designated to be affordable housing.

[Emma Nelson]

And the way they went about the problem was they had to deal with each section very, very closely. I mean, it's hard enough transforming a building which, you know, for example, the windows, floor to ceiling, they don't convert easily into, into apartments. But also there are enormous amounts of paperwork that have to be waded through.

[Sheena Rossiter]

Exactly. Some of the limitations were everything from regulatory limitations, tax incentives, and zoning issues. And as we know, for all developers anywhere all over the world, they work on razor thin margins. So having things like tax incentives would definitely help this. So the city actually went in and they changed zoning by the to make this easier for more office buildings to be converted into housing. And then this actually had to work its way up as well to state approval to get those tax breaks on a state level. So that was just a way to get that math working for developers in order to require them to build at least those affordable housing units. Because we can't forget that in New York City, the median rent just for a one bedroom apartment is about US$4,500 per month. And with a vacancy rate sitting under 1.5%, converting these office buildings is one piece of the puzzle. But there's still a lot to be done.

[Emma Nelson]

Sheena Rossiter, thank you so much for joining us on the line from Edmonton in Canada. You're listening to the Globalist.

So we've just been hearing there about New York vacancy rates and efforts to transform old business districts. Well, let's turn our attention to London now, because four decades ago, London's Canary Wharf was built with the express intention of transforming a derelict part of East London into one of the most powerful emblems of international financial power. The pandemic, however, scraped the place out. But with a refreshed appetite for a return to the office and some clever repositioning, Canary Wharf now wants to become a destination for all. Paying close attention to this is Monocle's executive producer and urban legend expert, Carlotta Rubella. Good morning, Carlotta.

[Carlotta Rubella]

Good morning, Emma.

[Emma Nelson]

Stepping out from behind the control room to, to sort this out. So thank you very much indeed for that. Just establish to us what went wrong for Canary Wharf.

[Carlotta Rubella]

Well, as you indicated there, the pandemic really was the nail in Canary Wharf's coffin because it was built as a primarily office district. And when we saw the, you know, work from home lockdown mandates, it was just apparent that that was a district that would not function. And then as we know, the return to office has not been smooth. A lot of companies still are not back five days a week. So it really decreased the appetite for big tower office blocks in the city in London. And of course, with Canary Wharf, there's the added problem of the fact that it is all new build for a lot of people. There's often the criticism that it lacks character, it lacks authenticity. So it just happens has struggled to actually attract some people. Now, I really want to say that our sister agency has done Some fantastic work when creative in actually the rebranding and repositioning of Canary Wharf this year. And they've. One of the things that they've identified when I was speaking to them about, you know, how do you even tackle a problem like Canary Wharf is exactly that is like making sure that people understand that there is so much more beyond the office life. There's lots of restaurants, lots of entertainment venues, lots of outdoors areas as well. You might not know, but one of the few spots in London where you can actually go swimming in the summer for free is in Canary Wharf because they've managed to clean up part of the dock. So it's as much as it is a problem of the assets themselves, the physical spaces, as it has been of branding and rebranding. And this is the two things that we're seeing being tackled here.

[Emma Nelson]

And we also have a return to work. I mean, Visa's coming back, there is movement here. The interesting thing for me about Canary Wharf is that it is a space. It is a plot of land which is privately owned. And the ability for something like Canary Wharf, which is so huge and one would imagine sort of as a big, solid, slow moving place to be so nimble in its reinvention, depends on the fact that there is private money in this. There is that strong business sense. And that's not something that can be replicated everywhere in every city where they have. Where they are struggling with districts like Canary Wharf.

[Carlotta Rubella]

Well, but the thing is that the private investment and the private funding here really is key when you're talking about the redevelopment of such a massive district for just for a bit of scale. The Canary Wharf Group has said that 7 billion pounds of investment has and is being put into this revamp of the district. We're talking about, about new developments, refurbishing of offices into either conversions into residential buildings or giving them a new life, also infrastructure and amenities. And yes, as you said, Visa, which is the big news this week, has announced that they are relocating its European HQ to Canary Wharf. This will be taking place from 2028 and this is a 15 year term. But we also need to remember HSBC, which a few years ago had announced, you know, HSBC, HBC is leaving Canary Wharf. It was one of the most iconic towers. Anyone landing at City Airport would see it. And it really was a mark of this attempt to create a financial district. And HSBC surprised both staff and people outside of the company earlier this summer when it announced that actually is going to go back.

To the area. And we are seeing a lot of these conversions. We've spoken to some of the team at Wilkinson Architects who are redeveloping some of the sites. And one of the challenges that they have is how do you redevelop these towers while you can still work in them? Because what you don't want is for everyone to leave so you can do the construction work for a couple of years and then try to gather everyone back. It's how do you keep them there while you revamp?

[Emma Nelson]

G. Rebeta, thank you so much for joining me in the studio. And that's all the time we have for today's program. The warmest of thanks to all my my guests and to the producers, Carlotta, Laura Kramer, Chris Tamac and Ryuma Takahashi. Our researcher was Joanna Moser and our studio manager was Elliot Greenfield. After the headlines, more music's on the way. The briefing's live at midday here in London. And the Globalist is back at the same time tomorrow. But for now, from me, Emma Nelson, goodbye. Thank you very much for listening.

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