Simon Bouvier (3:14)

Bonjour, Alma. How are you?

Emma Nelson (3:16)

Very well, thank you. And arguably in a slightly better state than France this morning. The government has Collapsed. There is a Prime minister who's just about to hand in his resignation, and the hunt is on for his replacement.

Simon Bouvier (3:27)

Yes, I do hope that you're doing better than that, Emma. So, yes, President Macron, it's not like he wasn't expecting it, but he's going to be on the hunt for his fifth prime minister in a little bit over three years, nearly four. So, yeah, but there is a favorite, current or outgoing, I should say, Defense Minister Sebastien Lucornu, who is a favorite of the president and who has cordial relations with the far right. So I think all of that will help him to form a government. But I don't see the fundamental equation of a divided parliament changing anytime soon.

Emma Nelson (4:05)

This is a problem, isn't it? The French parliament, as it stands and has been widely reported, is so fractured that no one could get anyone anything through. And this is the problem Bairu faced, it faced yesterday. Both the left and the right rejected any proposal that he was ever going to offer.

Simon Bouvier (4:23)

Yes. I think also the question is there's a question of who, but there's also a question of what. What is the agenda going to be? Specifically, Bayer, who made this tackling of public debt, slashing public spending and increasing France's productivity and even taxes to kind of bridge that gap, his main policy, but it extremely unpopular on all sides. I think also that Macron, if he does name Le Cornue being a favorite of his, he will be more inclined possibly to give some things up to the moderate left in hopes that his favorite might be able to thrive in the job, as opposed to Bayroux, who was kind of an ally of the President, but somebody who kind of forced Macron's hand and forced himself into the job. So when he decided to essentially blow himself up with this vote of confidence, the president kind of threw his hands up and said, okay, it's all you.

Emma Nelson (5:22)

And just in outline for us, the difficulty that France faces itself in when it comes to its budget. Bairu wanted to try and get 44 billion euros off the budget, off the deficit, and was going to do so by major, major austerity and also changes to public holidays, which is, as you can imagine, no one's going to like very much in France.

Simon Bouvier (5:47)

Definitely not. And one wonders whether it was part of the point to make this policy agenda so unpopular that he could kind of plan his exit and say, I'm the only serious person here, nobody else will dare to touch our sacrosanct holidays, but I'm the only one who has the courage to tell you the truth, which is that we need to work more if we are going to bridge this public spending. G Big picture, Emma. The budget talks essentially, France over the past few years has had problems with runaway public spending owed to crises such as the COVID 19 pandemic, but also technical errors in evaluating how much income the country would get from taxes. It's all a bit complicated, but the end result is that there is a much bigger hole in France's public finances than its economists had previously estimated. And so if they want to stay within the rules of the European Union and keep their creditors happy, France needs to take drastic action. And that means, you know, there is no. This is a formula that Macron likes to use there, there are no magical finances. The money is, is going to come from cutting spending and increasing the. The income which can come from taxes, but also having people, people work more or longer. So that's what is on the plate of the next Prime Minister. And hopefully, now that he has one of his proteges in charge, Macron will be willing to give the moderate left some kind of wins instead of protecting his legacy at all costs. So that will probably mean increased taxes on the wealthiest French.

Emma Nelson (7:37)

Tell us a little bit more about Sebastien Le Cornu and the fact that this name has emerged very, very quick. In the past, we have seen efforts made by Emmanuel Macron to fill the Prime Ministerial position done with extreme difficulty because no one really wants this job anymore. So what is it about Le Cornue that seems to be a simple and quick fit? I mean, you mentioned the fact that he can move both to the right and to the left.

Simon Bouvier (8:04)

Yes, I think that Le Cornue was the favorite before Bayroux was named, but then by who threatened the President, kind of cunning, backroom dealing politician that he is. He went to the Elysee and said, listen, if you don't name me the next Prime Minister, I will withdraw from this centrist coalition and therefore you won't have that Prime Minister, won't have the votes to govern. So he kind of forced Macron's hand. But Le Cornue was Macron's first choice. As we mentioned earlier, he is, is kind of a Macron loyalist from the start. He's had experience now being in government for a while, and he has cultivated cordial relationships on both sides of the political spectrum in France. So he might have more leeway to pass this tricky budget and generally govern than Bayroux did and then Barnier did before him. But he's going to have to essentially treat the Socialist Party as deal as Kingmakers, I'm sorry. So they're going to have to figure out, okay, what is it that you want exactly and what can we include in the budget that are priorities for you? I think it will mean that the savings that the budget will include will be far less drastic than what Bayhu had planned. But it should include a little something also to keep the IMF and, and the money markets relieved that something is being done at least to address this runaway spending.

Emma Nelson (9:43)

Indeed, because this is the problem, isn't it, that we have. You know, yesterday Germany said that any instability in France doesn't affect the wider stability of the Eurozone, but surely there will be some Europe wide impact, not least because having the EU's second biggest economy in a state of permanent political crisis is not going to help in a time of war and in a time dealing with Donald Trump's tariffs.

Simon Bouvier (10:09)

Definitely not. Especially since, as you mentioned, Emma, I mean these, these tariffs are not pure economics anymore because of the way that the White House is conducting its foreign policy. The security and geopolitical side of things and the commercial side of things are one and the same. And that partly explains why the European Union decided that it would settle for this kind of 15% baseline tariff and accept that the US would sell goods in the EU for zero, which a lot of people, including the French, explicitly called a capitulation to the United States. It's because Ursula von der Leyen and other EU officials and I think most EU heads of state understand that the Trump White House sees geopolitics as transactional. And so there is always a what's in it for us? Situation. And if France is unable to be productive enough to, to, to live up to that side of the bargain, I think they'll have difficulty being credible on the security front as well. So, so I think it is quite urgent that they get over this, this phase of one prime minister succeeding another and lasting less than a year and hopefully this next one will be it. But really I don't think see this equation changing fundamentally until the next presidential elections in 2027.

Emma Nelson (11:32)

Simone, quick question. What else is on the to do list in the Paris bureau today?

Simon Bouvier (11:37)

Well, what else is on the to do list of the Paris bureau today? I could not tell you because I am on holiday currently in Le Perche, so I will be visiting a petting zoo later today and I wish my colleagues in the Paris bureau well, thank.

Emma Nelson (11:53)

You very much indeed for that. Simone Bouvier, Monocle's Paris Bureau chief, thank you for joining us on the Globalist to Norway's parliamentary elections. Now the country's Labour Party has secured another four years in office after seeing off a surge of support for the populist right. With 99% of the votes counted, the centre left was projected, I should say, to win with 89 seats. With the centre right taking 80 seats, you need 85 seats for a majority. Well, to explain the results that have come in overnight, I'm joined now from Oslo by Bruno Kaufman, Global democracy correspondent at the Swiss Broadcasting Company. Welcome back, Bruno.

Bruno Kaufman (12:35)

Good morning to you, Gumar and Emma.

Emma Nelson (12:38)

So this was expected to be a close race. Did it turn out to be as close as the predictions went?

Bruno Kaufman (12:45)

Yes and no. I mean, it was clear from the very first results coming in that Red left, Green apart, will win so that Jonas Garri can continue as a Prime minister. But at the same time it was a little bit unclear which kind of parties are making it into the parliament and also how the different parties on the right side, on the, the side of the. Of the opposition will make it. And here we got quite surprising results.

Emma Nelson (13:15)

In what way?

Bruno Kaufman (13:17)

That on the right side, the Conservative Party, which was basically the counterpart of the Social Democrats for more than 100 years, they lost most of their voters. They are down to 14%. It's the worst result for the Conservative Party. And on the other side, the right populist party, the Progress Party, made its best result. So this changed the landscape of politics in Norway really, really profoundly when it.

Emma Nelson (13:45)

Means it changes the landscape profoundly. We have a sh. I think Norway is counted among more than one country nowadays, which is moving and is hearing a stronger populist voice. What kind of influence do you think that will now have in Norwegian politics?

Bruno Kaufman (14:00)

I mean, Norway is a country where parties normally don't have a majority in parliament, where very often the government doesn't have a majority, but has to negotiate with all the different parties, where you have nine parties in parliament. So that means there's a lot of need of compromise, a lot of need of negotiation to make Norwegian politics working. And this was possible as long as on the right side, Conservative Party was dominant force like the sun, where all the others are circling around. And now with the right wing populist party, this is a new type of illiberal, you can say dominant force which is not ready to make a compromise. And this will create a lot of challenges to the Norwegian system. While the prime minister who was re elected yesterday, he offered a hand also to this party because he said all the parties in Norway are democratic parties and all the Norwegian parties are able to negotiate.

Emma Nelson (15:02)

And when it comes to the big sticking points, there was a lot of discussion as people went into the polls about wealth tax, because Norway is one of those few countries which does have one. Cost of living, as ever, is a problem. But also the decisions made in terms of the area investment of the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund. Where do you think these, what do you think is going to happen in a couple of these areas? Given the fact that you now mention that this rise of populism means that compromise may not be as easy anymore?

Bruno Kaufman (15:35)

No, it will be much more difficult now for the Prime Minister and the Labour Party to really govern this country. Because as you have said correctly, Emma, it's really about the problem that Norway is not too poor, it's too rich. But many of its people have problems to deal with because the prices are very high, the salaries are not necessarily as high, and many billionaires, they have left the country because they feel they have to pay too much taxes. So it's really a country which have a specific challenge. And also, as we have in the debate discussed, there was a lot of discussions about how this money of the oil fund is invested around the world. And many people are not ready anymore that this oil fund is just investing in making more money, for instance in countries which are involved in war. So there is a lot of challenges. And the Prime Minister will now have to deal with four parties on the left side. And it's already discussed that this will be some form of tutti frutti coalition or cooperation. And this is a new situation. And this will make the work of Jonas Garzturi, the Prime Minister, very much more difficult. At his right hand he has Jens Stoltenberg, the former NATO Secretary General who is finance Minister. And this couple, I mean, this made it possible to regain the confidence in the Norwegian politics because just one year ago the Labour Party was down at 14%. Now it got doubled. And this has a lot to do that Jonas Garzture made this masterpiece of getting back Jens Stoltenberg, who was NATO secretary general for 10 years, into the government and doing quite a great job.

Emma Nelson (17:18)

Bruno Kaufman, global democracy correspondent for the Swiss Broadcasting Company, joining me on the line from Oslo. Thank you. Still to come on today's program, the.

Anoushka Astana (17:27)

Left has a choice there. It either really stands up for those people and it moves to the left and it, you know, shouts loudly for them, or it takes this position that some might say more apes a conservative position.

Emma Nelson (17:38)

The US editor for Channel 4 News talked to us about the politics of immigration. Stay tuned.

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Emma Nelson (18:25)

Now. In the last few hours, Thailand Supreme Court has ruled their former leader Thaksin Shinawat must spend a year in jail. It ruled that his previous detention in hospital struck in a deal with the authorities, wasn't legal. Well, joining me now from Bangkok is Monocle's Asia editor, James Chambers. Good afternoon, James.

James Chambers (18:42)

Morning Emma.

Emma Nelson (18:43)

So would you be kind enough to bring us up to date please?

James Chambers (18:46)

Yes, that's right. I mean anyone's been following this story closely. We know that Thaksin disappeared on his airplane on Friday and flew to Dubai. And I guess we were all thinking he was going, going to stay there and avoid this court case today. But he came back yesterday, he was in court and he was sentenced to serve the year in prison which he should have been doing two years ago. So it is a bit of a shock that a Shinawat will actually spend time in prison, but it's something that most people did anticipate. This was a pretty clear cut case. I mean he came back two years ago from self imposed exile. He should have been serving, serving eight years in prison for some crimes that were committed during his time as prime minister. He managed to wangle a pardon for seven of those years and then for the final year he didn't end up spending any time in prison. On his first day he was transferred to a police hospital where he spent the remaining six months in, in a private ward. Feigning all kinds of different illnesses. He was let out early and then lo and behold, he makes a miraculous recovery and gets back into the day to day cut and thrust of Thai politics. Traveling around the country looking very, very fit indeed indeed.

Emma Nelson (20:02)

I mean there's an awful lot of scandal involving this, this, this so called treatment, this treatment that Thaksin China received. I think there's a prison doctor was cautioned for failing to meet medical standards. Does this mean that, you know, one of the most famous figures in Thai politics, someone who has had a hand in the workings of Thai politics for, for years, if not decades, is now going to be simply carted off to jail.

James Chambers (20:28)

That's exactly what's going to happen. And he will have to serve his one year in prison. I don't Think there's any way around it? There's a lot of people in Thailand who want to see tax in due time. I mean, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, he had a huge amount of support. But that support has been ebbing away over time and he's done himself no favors since coming back. I think there was time where he was a bit of a figurehead for Thai democracy. But since his return, I think that's become very clear that he's only interested in his own fortunes and the fortunes of his family under the Protai Party, which have led the government for the last two years. It's just been a bit, it's been shameless at times. Taxin, you know, acting for his own best interest interests. And I guess, you know, there was, as you mentioned, there was a, there was a kind of a grand deal behind all of this where he must have made some kind of arrangement with the authorities that would, that allowed him to come back to Thailand. And the deal was that, you know, if he was allowed out, he would go quietly into retirement. And he just couldn't do that. He just couldn't face, you know, stepping aside from politics and living a happy life with his grandchildren. He had to get involved. He was very, very, very influential in Per Tai and their policies. And I guess this is what comes from that.

Emma Nelson (21:57)

And is this the end for Thaksin Shinawat?

James Chambers (22:00)

I mean, we've been talking about it, haven't we, Emma, about whether it's the beginning of the end of the Shinawat and Per Tai? I definitely feel this must be the final nail in the coffin. I mean, his daughter was kicked out as prime minister a few weeks ago. You know, his sisters was removed by a coup in he himself was removed. Now he's in prison. It does feel like it's very much the end of the road. And Thailand has a new prime minister in Annyutin and he does seem like, you know, the new Taxin. So it's hard to see how when the next election is fought in four or five or six months, how Per Tie is going to be relevant at all. I feel like a wipeout is on the cards and they're going to become a minority, very small party. And the contest now in Thailand is between the Progressive Party, the People's Party and the current prime minister's party, Bum.

Emma Nelson (22:54)

Jai Thai Monaco's James Chambers in Bangkok. Thank you for joining us on the Globalist. And we head now to Switzerland for today's paper review. Joining me is Juliet Lindley, journalist and former Vatican Correspondent. Good morning, Juliet. How's Zurich looking?

Juliet Lindley (23:12)

Zurich's looking cold and wet, Emma. So different from when you were here. How are you?

Emma Nelson (23:17)

Absolutely astonished that it could be anything other than hot and sunny in Zurich. So I'm devastated. Could you comfort us with some press, please?

Juliet Lindley (23:24)

Let me comfort you with. Well, let's start with some Swiss papers. And so the Alpine nations Parliament has just opened, it's opened its autumn session and actually geopolitics and foreign policy are pretty understandably taking a front seat with Swiss MPs. I'll just give you a few highlights. So there is a neutrality initiative and the House is due to debate whether to tighten what the constitution essentially meant when it came to Swiss neutrality. So it's the populace who are proposing a stricter interpretation, with the Swiss defense defence industry already taking a beating with its decision to block re exports of defense products to Ukraine. So the People's Party initiative could well face stumbling blocks from pro army and business constituents. But domestically, you've got the additional cost of buying new fighter jets. That's been in the papers lately. We've discussed it a lot on air and it's a big issue. The left want it to be put to a referendum, but there are a lot of people who say that these kind of military strategic decisions cannot necessarily be put to a popular vote.

Emma Nelson (24:24)

Sorry, no. It is that problem the Swiss face all the time, isn't it? The neutrality issue is one of those things that causes so much soul searching.

Juliet Lindley (24:34)

Well, that is it. And what does it mean nowadays? Today, in 2025? And then on foreign policy issues, Gaza is high on the agenda. The Social Democrats are calling on the government to condemn Israel's crimes, while a people's initiative from Canton, Geneva actually wants the state of Palestine to be recognized by Berne. And staying on that topic at the same time, the Swiss papers are reporting that while the MPs inside the Parliament building were debating these matters outside, there was a protest taking place. And we had Swiss doctors sitting outside the Bundeshuis to start what they're calling a relay hunger strike for sanctions on Israel and recognition, recognition of a Palestinian state. So they were wearing stethoscopes and scrubs and coats that were actually splashed in what looked like fake blood. And many are members of the organization called the Swiss Healthcare Workers Against Genocide. And they're actually calling on Berne to step up and they're saying it's not reacting adequately to the war in Gaza. And the doctors are taking turns in a 24 hour fast throughout the September parliamentary session. And they're pressing for the Swiss to be more courageous, they're saying, to be more critical of Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Now, Emma, Switzerland's neutral, as we said, and it matched EU sanctions on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine several years ago. And that has prompted many to accuse Berne of double standards because it has done nothing of the sort against Israel. Now the Foreign Ministry has reacted and they've told Reuters that Switzerland does not have legal autonomy on sanctions policies and can only match match ones that are declared by major trading partners or the UN So that's how Bern is defending itself with regard to these doctors. And as you know, Switzerland has such a big humanitarian role to play and is very involved in troubled, in troubled spots around the world. And also remember that a 70 year old Swiss citizen who had dual Israeli nationality was actually killed in the October 7th attacks by Hamas. Soon after that, the Federal council announced additional 90 million francs in humanitarian aid. And it all also banned Hamas and its affiliates from using Switzerland as a safe haven or a financial hub. Emma?

Emma Nelson (26:50)

Okay, thank you very much indeed for that. Let's move to Italy, your former patch of the Vatican. We had a millennial canonized this weekend, didn't we?

Juliet Lindley (26:58)

We did. Pope Leo has just made two young men saints. One is Pier Giorgio Frassati from the early 20th century, and the other is Carlo Acutis, who died not so long ago at the age of 15. And many Catholics are hoping that he will inspire a new generation of youngsters to find their faith and to strengthen their involvement in the Church. It was a big ceremony, as these things are in St. Peter's Square. You had 1700 priests, hundreds of bishops, dozens of cardinals, as well as the relatives of the newly canonized young men. And amongst them, Emma, was Antonia Acutis. And she's the mother of St. Carlo Acutis. And as I watched the ceremony, now, Carlo was born in 1991, so, so very, very recent. And as I watched the ceremony and I was reading up about Mama Akutis, I started to be fascinated by thoughts like, and Emma, you will relate to this, like what kind of mother does it take to raise a saint? Or like what does it take for your saintly child to actually become canonized and recognized by the world, by the Catholic Church as being a saint. You can think it, but how do you get the rest of the world to think it? So to the first point. So I've been reading up and looking into these things and watching a lot of Italian news and you would think that perhaps you need to be pious, prayerful, churchgoing mother. But then think again, Emma. Because Ms. Sakuti says it was her son's piety that led her to rediscover her own faith. And she didn't even go to church regularly when she was bringing him up. And apparently you also don't need to be a helicopter mom, Emma, if you want to raise a saint. Because Carlo was born into a wealthy Italian family, he was born in London, then moved back to Milan, where his family had business interests and his parents were not particularly present. He had numerous domestic staff, including a Polish nanny who is said to have prayed with him a lot. And also another member of staff from the developing world who has said that Carlo actually convinced him to convert to Catholicism. And then, just one more thought. The other thing that you shouldn't do if you want to follow in Mama Akutis footsteps is try to banish gaming, Emma. Because a lot of us tried to do that, perhaps, or at least try to limit it. But this young lad was so good with programming. He was so comfortable with computers that he set up websites tracking miracles, creating traveling exhibitions with photos, documenting miracles. And he was passionate about computers from the age of six, by the way. His mother says he had so much self discipline that he would allow himself only one hour of PlayStation a week.

Emma Nelson (29:26)

Goodness me. We're destined to failure, Julia. That's all I can say. You've left me speechless with that one. I'm just wondering. He also went to mass every day, apparently as well, and only ever had one pair of shoes.

Juliet Lindley (29:39)

Yes, but then, you know, there's also some are wondering, like, how do you fast track your son to sainthood? And there are the critics who say perhaps this was a bit too fast. He's the fastest person to be made a saint. If you look at the year he was born and the year he became a saint. Just 34 years, it's the fastest. Never happened before. What has happened is people have been fast tracked soon after their death. And so let's say St. John Paul II or Mother Teresa were made saints sooner. But some are wondering whether perhaps the family's wealth helped to make this all happen so fast. Not a problem. We need to think too much about today, Juliet.

Emma Nelson (30:16)

We're talking about saintly teenagers. Juliet Lindley, journalist and former Vatican correspondent, joining us from us du Foorschweisse 90 studios in Zurich. Thank you. You're listening to the Globalist on Monocle Radio. Now here's a quick look at what else we're keeping an eye on. Today, Democrats on a U.S. congress committee have published an image of a sexually suggestive letter allegedly sent by Donald Trump to the sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. When details of the letter were reported by the Wall Street Journal In July, Mr. Trump launched a multi billion dollar defamation case. The White House said Mr. Trump did not draw the picture and it wasn't his signature. Ethiopia officially inaugurates Africa's biggest hydroelectric project today. The $5 billion Grand European Renaissance Dam took 14 years to build. It's been long opposed by Egypt and Sudan who fe reduce their water supplies. The long running battle for control of Rupert Murdoch's empire has been settled. The deal consolidates the control of his son Lachlan over the business, including Fox News and the Wall Street Journal. And it's been reported that an incident at London's Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 yesterday was likely an episode of mass hysteria. 20 people were assessed by paramedics at the scene. But what all of them have now been discharged. The Metropolitan Police said no hazardous materials were found. This is the Globalist station. Stay tuned. It's what? 1731 in Honiara. 8:31am if you're listening in Zurich now, the self declared purpose of the Pacific Islands Forum is to empower the Pacific. And the annual gathering is underway in the Solomon Islands. But for the first time, China, the U.S. taiwan are among those that have been excluded from the invite list. The official agenda covers climate change and security, but the meeting does occur and intensify geopolitical competition in the Pacific. So to try to work out how they make all this work, I'm joined now from Adelaide, Australia by Edward Acton Kavanagh, who's a journalist and author of Divided Isles. Good afternoon, Edward.

Edward Acton Kavanagh (32:28)

Good afternoon.

Emma Nelson (32:29)

So what should in theory be, as I've just mentioned, empowering. The Pacific seems to be doing exactly the opposite this week. Week.

Edward Acton Kavanagh (32:38)

Well, there's a, there's a bit of that, isn't there? There's been a lot of controversy in the lead up to this particular Pacific Islands Forum in a way that we haven't really ever seen before. And largely that's due to the fact that the traditional observer states of the Pacific Islands Forum, which, as you mentioned in the introduction, China, the United States, even the European Union and others have been excluded. And this is a first for some time. And how that the reason that happened really is because there was an intentional omission of Taiwan a couple of months back that was very controversial. And to kind of clean this up, the Solomon Islands government decided to omit all observers states and that's really unfortunately sort of taken the attention of this forum, which is there to speak to some really existential and really critical issues for the region.

Emma Nelson (33:26)

Indeed. I mean, the great one that is always debated here is climate change and the very direct effects felt by the participants of the forum.

Edward Acton Kavanagh (33:36)

Well, that's exactly right. The Pacific is of course, on the absolute front lines of climate change. And these are small island developing states. They really have very little resources, but they're incredibly vulnerable. And that means that they can only really change global policy when they stick together and when they band together and when they unify in pursuit of certain measures. And this particular Pacific Islands forum, one of the big, the big asks is the contributions from the rest of the world for a Pacific Resilience Fund, which is effectively, you know, an infrastructure fund to help build in climate resilience. The shame is that some of these external partners not being there, that means it's less likely that you're going to see contributions into that fund. So it is a bit of a, bit of a unfortunate situation leading into this year's forum.

Emma Nelson (34:22)

And just explain to us as well this idea that we mentioned, the fact that China and the United States have been excluded from the Pacific Forum, but how much does the region find itself at the heart of other people's problems?

Edward Acton Kavanagh (34:37)

Well, that's a good question. And really there is a genuine attempt by the Pacific island countries, all of them really, to ensure that they don't become just these sort of chess pieces in a broader geopolitical sport, a geopolitical game. There's been a huge amount of concern within the region that, you know, they are getting coerced or pushed around by either the United States or even Australia or China. And there is those that really want the region to stand up on its own two feet and not be pushed around by anyone. So there is some support for omitting China and the United States in particular for this forum, but it does limit the utility of this forum too. So that's where the controversy has really come about within the region itself.

Emma Nelson (35:19)

So how does it go about trying to do this given the fact that, as you have just said, the area is trying to stand on its own feet, yet finds itself quite stuck and it's determined not to get involved in too much controversy. But we see an awful lot of the time, you know, the normally militarily and the influence of the likes of China and pushback from Australia is, is a, is a perpetual problem. Isn't.

Edward Acton Kavanagh (35:43)

Is a problem. But the smart Pacific island countries have been very deft at leveraging this growing geopolitical tension and competition for their own gains. I did a lot of work in Solomon Islands, really, documenting how Solomon Islands capitalized on its new relationship with China to gain extraordinary concessions from China, China, from the United States, from Australia.

Emma Nelson (36:03)

Really.

Edward Acton Kavanagh (36:04)

We're talking about investment in infrastructure and investment in government supports and things like that. So there's this balancing act that Pacific governments are trying to work through, which is, yes, they don't want to be pushed around by others, but they do recognize there's more attention on them and they want to leverage that for their own economic gains, but also their own internal political advantages as well.

Emma Nelson (36:24)

Edward Axon Kavanagh, journalist and author of Divided Isles, joining me on the line from Adelaide in Australia. Thank you. Thank you. New with Monocle Radio now, the current episode of the Foreign Desk on Monocle Radio is an exercise in wondering what an actually reasonable discussion of immigration would sound like and whether any of the people who most loudly insist that they want a reasonable discussion of immigration actually do. Among the guests talking to Andrew Muller is Anoushka Astana, who's US editor for Channel 4, and she spoke to Andrew from Washington, D.C. andrew began by asking why the immigration issue has caught Labour so off guard.

Anoushka Astana (37:03)

I think to understand where they're coming from in immigration, you almost need to look back at the strategy they used to win the election. Yes, of course, the Conservatives have had collapsed and Labour could have won anyway, but the reality is that there was a really thought through strategy that targeted a particular group of voters above all else. It was one of the most targeted strategies we've ever seen, targeting on these working class seats in former industrial heartlands where people were really feeling the pinch economically and where immigration was a more salient issue than it may have been in some other parts of the country. Now, I think the salience of immigration rises and falls over time. It so happens that in recent years it has really risen again, having fallen back immediately after the Brexit vote. And they made a decision. They made a decision that this is an issue on which we have to be tough, that we have to look like we're in the same place as these votes, we voters, they see that position as being quite far to the right, if you would call it that. I mean, it's sort of about a kind of social conservatism, if you like, rather than a left right thing. Arguably, they did say to me, some really senior figures beforehand, that part of the strategy is that they would never punch down on immigrants themselves or asylum seekers. And I think that critics of labor would think that they have moved to a position where they are absolutely punching down on those sections of society. I mean, I think they would argue that we need to, to do this politically because that's where the voters are. And it is a really difficult thing. I see it here, having just moved to the US and I was speaking to an immigration expert here who's actually advising politicians in the UK over the issue. They're having the same issue here, which is people are angry and upset by the level of, you know, what they see as illegal immigration, what other people might see as completely legitimate asylum claims. And they want to see it react. And the left has a choice there. It either really stands up for those people and it moves to the left and it, you know, shouts loudly for them, or it takes this position that some might say more apes a conservative position. And I think this Labour Party has chosen to go down that latter, you know, path and always was going to because this Labour Party is ideologically a much more centrist beast than what came before it.

Tim Abrams (39:21)

Doubtless. But even so you say that that's where the voters are and obviously if you look at the current polling in United Kingdom and how well reform UK are doing, that is where a lot of the voters are. But is that where any Labour voters are? Is there anything that this government could do or say or enact that is possibly going to appease what I think is quite a large coterie of voters that will not be happy until the Channel Tunnel has been bricked up and absolutely nobody is allowed into the country?

Anoushka Astana (39:51)

Well, I think you're absolutely right that it is a fool's errand to try to out reform reform, because Labour can now never out reform reform and therefore all they're going to do is antagonize voters elsewhere in their coalition. This is, by the way, an age old challenge for political parties in the uk, which is they have very large coalitions. There is a coalition that spans from the type of people who absolutely do want to see really, really stringent measures on the south coast to people who might be considering voting for the Green Party in places like Bristol who feel really, really liberal about this issue, that the party took a strategic decision in the last election, that the more important part of that base was the more socially conservative right wing, working class voters in post industrial towns. Because basically, if you look at politics like a game of chess, that was where the most important part of the strategy came. Those were the seats that they needed to get over the line. And they felt in their heart that they would hold on to the more left wing seats, if you like, because they had such large majorities there. In reality, we saw in the election that they do have a problem on their left flank, that they did lose seats to the Greens, but also to independents. And they will be thinking that through at the moment. And many people would argue if you lose the left of your coalition, you're not going to be able to win the next election. That is a kind of strategic argument to be had. I was having a very interesting conversation with someone here who's advising people in the UK and their view, interestingly, someone who was a huge liberal immigration, pro immigration campaigner who advised Joe Biden, advised Kamala Harris, had basically come to the conclusion that the scale of asylum that we've seen has become so politically challenging. And also, and again, many people I know would disagree with this, they argued had become a backdoor for economic immigration as well. And their sort of advice is that you actually have to be really, really stringent on that. But. And this is the but that I think labor needs to really think hard about, but then have a more liberal left wing humane policy alongside it. So I've asked Keir Starmer many times in the past, okay, you want to be strict on the border, are you going to increase the number of safe routes for asylum seekers to come into our country? Because you do still believe in the rights of asylum seekers and they've always said no to that. And I think what this person was arguing was that, that if you're going to be really stringent in one place, you really ought to be more liberal in another. And also, you know, and I think this now we've got a position where, particularly in American politics, you know, black people feel under attack, women feel under attack, immigrants feel under attack. And suddenly the left, instead of standing up for those groups, feels that the only thing it can do is also try and be anti woke. And I do think that is is a sort of, you know, an ideological challenge and one that might fracture their coalition elsewhere.

Emma Nelson (42:48)

That was Anoushka aslana there, the US editor for Channel 4 News in the UK. This is a globalist. On Monocle Radio.

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Emma Nelson (43:35)

The time is 11:43am in Almaty, Kazakhstan, which is where we head now for an update on the world's design news. Tim Abrams is contributing editor to the Architectural Record. Generally, Tim, we find you somewhere in the United Kingdom, but you have decamped. Why is that? Welcome. Good morning by the way.

Tim Abrams (43:54)

Good morning. It's great to talk to you. I am here in Almaty currently I've been in which is in Kazakhstan. I've been in Uzbekistan. And I am here at what seems to be a kind of strange cultural inflection point. There's a number of institutions, new museums opening here, a new biennial, new cultural initiatives taking place. And I'm here to enjoy and experience two wonderful countries that are at a point in their history where they are after post Soviet stabilization and relative wealth, still quite authoritarian government. They're now at a stage where one feels they are at an inflection point. As I was saying, demographically these are very young countries. Half of Kazakhstan's population where I am now is under 30. One third of its smaller cousin, Uzbekistan's population is under 14. So one senses that these are new cultural institutions for a new young creative class.

Emma Nelson (44:59)

So what kind of design voice is emerging in this incredibly exciting time?

Tim Abrams (45:06)

What I've just been to see here in Kazakhstan is the Solani Arts center, which has a strong British flavor, albeit one which is in close, quite literally a marriage with Kazakhstan. The Celny Arts center was a former Soviet cinema, Cellini. The name has very unfortunate connotations. It means virgins land. Virgin lands, which was an agrarian population program ordered by Khrushchev in the 1950s to introduce Russification, but also kind of agrarian reform. And the cinema was much, although despite this negative connotation, was a much loved institution, fell into disrepair in the post Soviet period. And now a British and Kazakh couple, Asif Khan and his Kazakh wife Zauri Atayeva, who met when Asif was architect of the British Pavilion at the astana Expo in 2017. And she was the project architect for the whole thing. And they have come together and they have rebuilt, renovated this Soviet era cinema into an art center, a private art center which has been delivered with great care, meticulous detail and a full understanding of the symbolic moves. There are incredible murals by a Russian muralist whose sidorkin who they've rebuilt on the exterior of the building or inside the lobby. They've created this wonderful cloud like new construction on the front and meticulous, reordered the Building so it can become an art centre which is fantastic. There's also another British built art museum opening here, a state one which is by a more corporate practice, Chapman Taylor. The building is less successful but it's still, it's kind of riff on the blobby kind of 1990s art museums. And there you see you still have an amazing shop front for burgeoning contemporary art scene. An opportunity for them to understand quite what an amazing artistic legacy they had throughout the 20th century. A lot of beautiful modernism work and there's some big contemporary pieces by Western artists to measure their new work by Richard Serra and Sim Kilfer. So it's a very exciting time here in Almaty, where I have currently been in Kazakhstan. But as I say elsewhere there are other things happening too.

Emma Nelson (47:35)

Well, let's look elsewhere. But first let's talk about the fact that the names that you have mentioned and you've mentioned twice, these are British designers, British voices, British influences. How much is that a factor in the, in the regeneration or the creation of a cultural, you know, renaissance in that part of the world? Where are the local voices?

Tim Abrams (47:57)

Well, as I say, Asif is very much, he would be very the first to point out the British are the British half of an incredible couple. And his wife is Zauri Atayeva, is Kazakhstan. She, the project of the Cellini Art Centre is done very much as a labor of love. They would go so far as to say it's both of them his kind of falling in love with her and the country, he's that poetic about it. Also the cafe and restaurant in the building, just beautifully done, very subtle, lovely bits of work by a brilliant practice called New Almaty Architects Workshop who are female run practice here in Almaty who've already started working abroad in the United Arab Emirates as well as across Kazakhstan, but also done a coffee shop in my hometown of Oxford which just goes to show the reach and the quality of their work.

Emma Nelson (48:53)

Okay, so let's move to other parts. You did say there are other things on offer. At which point I am going to bite here and say what other things are on offer, Tim?

Tim Abrams (49:01)

Well, Uzbekistan, I mean anyone who's kind of been tracking the global army scene would suggest that Eurasia as Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan all kind of lumped into has been the area where a lot of people have been predicting new things from. It's been the area that great new work is expected from. And what we have in Uzbekistan is an amazing organization called the Arts and Cultural Develop Foundation. Again there's a British inflection to this that is led by Gayan Umarova, who's British educated, but who is Becky? She was the brainchild behind the British Museum's Silk Road exhibition last year. She did her A levels in the UK, studied at the Sotheby's Institute. She's doing a PhD at Oxford on the great the struggle between British and Russia to gain ascendancy in these parts. And her vision is largely an insider said to me she's got the best job in arts management in the world. She's got the ear of the President and she's doing amazing things. This includes bringing Tado Ando to build a new museum in Tashkent. She's also in charge of the UNESCO bid to get 10 incredible buildings from the Soviet period listed by UNESCO for world heritage. She has opened a new contemporary arts center, a new center for residencies. She's also set up what is a fascinating biennial. And I know we've got biennial kind of overload, but the Bukhara Biennial I would suggest should be on people's. On the art world's map. Indeed. There was a huge interest in it at the opening last week.

Emma Nelson (50:42)

And just tell us a little bit more about the interest in the Bukhara Biennial. But let's see how we actually get there. I mean, you've made it. The links, the transport, the way that this place is going to be opened up to the rest of the world. How ready the world for this enormous explosion of talent.

Tim Abrams (51:03)

There is. The spirit is strong, the desire for it is strong. What happens with the implications of that is an interesting thing. And we saw that at the Bechara Biennial. What we have is a single individual, Guyana Marova, who runs this organization, organization putting on a Biennial. And there was in this wonderful city full of mosques and madrasas and caravanserai, which is the places where merchants would arrive on the Silk Road putting on this event. And it was very much a single individual. And one felt that organizationally things really tailed off when her attention was not directly on it. There was lots of complaints about inertia across the institution when she wasn't directly involved. It was quite catching chaotic, to be honest. But the work it produced was amazing. Anthony Gormley did a really interesting piece up there which suggests a totally new direction for his work away from the body form towards a more urban. He did this incredible maze created with slabs of mud and straw, which was laid out across a madrasa form of ruined madrasa, which was absolutely stunning. But the organizational element, the component, you. You see this desire. This is happening just as the Shanghai Cooperation Organization just after a meeting in Beijing. And you see the political class looking towards their relationship with Russia and China, whereas the creative class are looking to the West. And you definitely feel that something interesting is going to come in that potential, potential pulling of different directions in the future.

Emma Nelson (52:46)

Tim Abrahams, contributing editor to the Architectural Record, thank you so much for joining us on the line From Almaty in Kazakhstan. You're listening to the globalist. It's what, nearly five, 7:53am which gives us a scant five minutes to find out everything that's happening in the world of theatre. If there's one man who can do it. Matt Wolfe, theatre critic at the International New York Times. Good morning.

Matt Wolfe (53:15)

Good morning. I'm ready to race.

Emma Nelson (53:16)

Well, this is it. Is everything going off? We go.

Matt Wolfe (53:20)

All of theatre in five minutes. A marathon. The marathon.

Emma Nelson (53:24)

Well, it's September and everything's going bananas.

Matt Wolfe (53:27)

I was going to say it's a good image because after August is usually quite quiet. All the action shows Septinborough for the festival and then September rolls around, the night's dream draw in and everyone thinks nice to go to the theater. So it's going to get really frantic end of September into October, but it's already quite busy as we will soon discuss.

Emma Nelson (53:45)

Okay, discuss. Go for it. What's first on the list?

Matt Wolfe (53:49)

Well, let's, let's talk about Juniper Blood at the Donmar. This is the second play this year by Mike Bartlett who wrote King Charles iii. His earlier play this year was Unicorn about polyamory. This is extremely different. This is a state of the nation play refracted through a farm in northwest architect Oxfordshire called Juniper Rise. And there's a couple who run the farm, Ruth and Lippett, and then there's a neighbor, Tony, and they all have very differing views about how the soil should be tilled and how the world should be lived. And it's a very interesting debate between kind of a wife who's socially compassionate, very regenerative minded, her husband who turns out to be an absolute fanatical eco warrior who values nature over people. And then there's this sort of anti woke neighbor brilliantly played by the always wonderful Jonathan Slinger. And so the three of them keep things crackling along across three acts. You don't get three acts much anymore.

Emma Nelson (54:46)

Three acts sound incredible given the fact that you do have what is effectively a sort of a very intimate play here. I mean, just laying out the positions though they all seem not necessarily stereotyped.

Matt Wolfe (54:57)

Or are they well, the stereotypes in the play, oddly, are. I'm talking about the older generation, but there's a young generation who is the character Ruth's ex stepdaughter and then her sort of educationally minded, rather thesis mongering friend. And they are really tedious. And when the younger generation takes center stage, the play grinds to a dead halt. And I'm afraid maybe this is just me showing my age, Emma. But I kept waiting for the oldies to come back.

Emma Nelson (55:24)

Oh, dear, Matt. Right, okay.

Matt Wolfe (55:27)

Takes one to know one, right?

Emma Nelson (55:28)

Talking about an oldie. I think at the beginning of the program we played a little bit of Evita. Can we hear it again? Is that entirely possible? Again, there's a really, really good reason.

Matt Wolfe (55:36)

Can never hear it too much.

Emma Nelson (55:38)

Well, I don't know about that. Have we got it? Let's have a listen. Now, basically, if you've been living in the center of London within earshot of that, you've been hearing that an awful lot recently because they've been singing it on the street.

Matt Wolfe (55:57)

Yeah, well, I mean, this. The production is finished now. It finished on Saturday night, September 6th. This was Jamie Lloyd's really extraordinary revival of Andrew Lloyd Webber's and Tim Rice's, in my view, best musical from the late 70s. I saw the show four times, including the final Saturday matinee a couple of days ago, and I think it just works on every level. It works politically as a cautionary fable that is absolutely opposite to our time today. It works musically because the music is just genius. It has none of the swoony romanticism of a lot of Lloyd Webber. And it's biting, sardonic, witty, incredibly compelling. And then it's just the most galvanic, engaging production that gets under your skin. And it introduces to us this phenomenal pair of young performers. And Rachel Zegler, who played Eva Peron, and the absolutely amazing Diego Andres Rodriguez, who's a South Texan performer who's basically pretty new to the world of showbiz, who plays Che, the male lead. And it was just a privilege to spend four evenings or one afternoon in their company.

Emma Nelson (56:59)

How much does Evita then travel around the rest of the world? Given the fact that it's clearly done well here in London, it's come to the end of its time. But that relevance and that voice that you mentioned is going to slot in lots of different places.

Matt Wolfe (57:12)

Yes, and I think that's the surprising thing about it, that you might assume a show about Juan and Eva Peron, who really. What does the younger generation know about them? Probably don't have any idea who they are. But because the production, which takes its cue from Beyonce's Coachella concerts and it's very much of the here and now, even though the people it's about are long gone, it does have a kind of resonance that I don't think Lloyd Webman Rusk had ever predicted. I'm sure this production will go to New York. It'd be very interesting to see if it would ever get picked up in Argentina, of course, the country in which it's set. But I think the onward life of this show is very much ongoing. Jamie Lloyd had been tasked with directing the new Lloyd Webber musical called the Illusionist, but now they seem to have reached a parting of the ways, which is a shame because he is a brilliant director of Lloyd Webber's work. Sense of Boulevard, and now this. Both astonishing.

Emma Nelson (58:01)

Finally, we've got about 30 seconds to talk about what's coming up soon. Born With Teeth or Lady from the Sea? Where do you want to talk?

Matt Wolfe (58:06)

Well, lady from the Sea, I haven't seen Born With Teeth. I have seen Born With Teeth is softcore porn fan fiction.

Emma Nelson (58:11)

Excellent.

Matt Wolfe (58:11)

If you want to see Tuti Gatwyn, Edward Blumel not wearing very much, now's your chance. Lady from the Sea. I think a lot of people will be expecting Andrew Lincoln and Lucy Vikander also not to be wearing very much. And that should be great fun as well.

Emma Nelson (58:22)

Naked September in Columbia.

Matt Wolfe (58:24)

You heard it here first.

Emma Nelson (58:25)

Gosh, you did. And we've done it. We've done it in five and a half minutes. You've done all of theatre. Matt Wolfe.

Matt Wolfe (58:31)

Putting our clothes back hit a critic.

Emma Nelson (58:34)

Who says we were wearing them in the first place. Here's a critic at the International New York Times. Well dressed. Thank you so much for joining me in the studio. And that's all the time we have for today's program. The warmest of thanks to all my guests and to the producers, Chris Chermack, Tom Webb and Hassan Anderson. Our research was Daniella Bros Smith. Our studio manager was Elliot Greenfield with editing assistance by Steph Chungu. After the headlines. More music on the way. The Briefings live at midday here in London. And the Globalist is back at the same time tomorrow. I hope you can join me for that if you can. But for now, from me, Emma Nelson. Goodbye. Thanks for listening, Sam.