← The Globalist
The Globalist
Mark Carney meets Claudia Sheinbaum in Mexico City: Are they united against Trump?
00:58:56
Loading summary
Transcript133 lines
- [00:04]
Emma Nelson
We're proud to support the craft of journalism. UBS brings you the latest news from around the world with the Globalist on Monocle Radio. Be part of an international network that brings together leading insights, research and technology across 24 time zones and 12 key financial hubs. With you at the centre of it all, UBS advice is our craft. Foreign. You're listening to the Globalist, first broadcast on 19th September 2025 on Monocle Radio. The Globalist in association with U. Live from London, this is the Globalist with me, Emma Nelson. A very warm welcome to today's program. Coming up, Mark Carney heads to Mexico.
- [01:17]
Inzaman Rashid
It's by balancing this respect for sovereignty.
- [01:20]
Andrew Muller
And the belief in cooperation that Canada and Mexico will build together for the benefit of our people.
- [01:27]
Emma Nelson
We'll examine whether America's two neighbors will find strength in numbers if they team up to deal with Donald Trump. Also ahead, the US President prepares for a phone call with China's Xi Jinping. They'll be talking about who should own TikTok. Can we expect a deal?
- [01:42]
Lord Norman Foster
Plus, we mustn't forget, is a means to improve the quality of our lives. Whether that's in a building, whether it's in a city, in urbanity, that is really the power of design.
- [01:52]
Emma Nelson
Lord Norman Foster talks to Monocle Radio about the importance of thinking through the way we shape our cities. Plus the Greek newspapers and Andrew Muller tells us what we learned. That's all coming up on the Globalist, live from London. First, a quick look at what else is happening in today's news. The United States has vetoed a UN resolution demanding an immediate end and permanent ceasefire in Gaza, along with increased humanitarian access. Meanwhile, Donald Trump has suggested that the television networks, which give him bad publicity, should have their licenses taken away. And a court in South Korea has awarded damages to the performers behind a virtual K pop group after a commentator said they could be ugly in real life. Stay tuned to Monocle Radio throughout the day for more on these stories. But first, Mexico and Canada have a shared problem. The country that lies between them, or more specifically, its leader, Donald Trump, as part of his vigorous drive to make America great again, has hammered his neighbors with high import tariffs depending on what's being sent over the border, from a general tariff of 25% on imports from Mexico to tariffs of 50% on steel and aluminium imports from Canada and Mexico. Well, Canada's Prime Minister Mark Carney and his Mexican counterpart, Claudia Schoenbaum have met. But what can their combined efforts look like or indeed achieve? Well, I'm joined now by Paul Waldie, who's a Europe correspondent at the Globe and Mail. Good morning, Paul.
- [03:23]
Paul Waldie
Good morning.
- [03:24]
Emma Nelson
So the photographs have been taken. The messages are, is that there is some sort of alliance, some sort of consensus between Mexico and Canada.
- [03:35]
Paul Waldie
Yeah, I mean, that remains to be seen. You know, it's actually quite rare for leaders from Canada and Mexico to meet outside the context of a meeting with the US as well. You know, I think this is the first time a Canadian prime minister has actually traveled to Mexico in eight years. And Sean Bynes predecessor never went to Canada at all during his six years in office. So the relationship between these two countries has been kind of described as, you know, disinterested and at times fractious. But I think, you know, Trump has brought them both together and they're now both looking for new markets and view each other as a potential, you know, allies.
- [04:14]
Emma Nelson
So what was said between Carney and Shanebone?
- [04:17]
Paul Waldie
Well, I think they're. They're looking. Both countries are sort of looking for a way around the US and, you know, one of the issues for Canada has been, you know, how to expand trade beyond so much dependence on the U.S. europe, Asia and other places. But suddenly Mexico has emerged as a possibility. Mexico is actually increasing and developing an awful lot of its ports. They view it as possibly a way to send ships from Mexico to Canada. Canada's ports aren't quite as developed yet, but there's talk of infrastructure cooperation, there's talk of energy pipelines. Canadian companies do a lot of investing in Mexico in terms of mining in that. But, you know, right now, the trade between Canada and Mexico is very, very small. So it remains to be seen, really, how much impact any of this is going to have.
- [05:00]
Emma Nelson
Now, they've signed a pact in the last few hours to deepen economic and security ties. This is ahead of the renegotiation of an agreement which dates back to Trump's first term. Could you explain that for us, please?
- [05:15]
Paul Waldie
Yeah. Even further back, you know, there has been an agreement between Canada, Mexico and the US for quite a while. It used to be called nafta, then it was called something else, and then Trump kind of renegotiated it, and it is up for renegotiation in 2026. And of course, Canada and Mexico are very, very concerned that given Trump's tariff and global tariff war, that that deal is going to be very, very difficult to negotiate. So I think Canada and Mexico are trying to kind of come together and maybe form some kind of an alliance or some kind of strategic partnership. That will get them through those negotiations. However, in the past, both countries have kind of gone their own way and at times even throwing each other under the bus when it comes to these negotiations. So, I mean, just how close they'll be when push comes to shove is, is really an open question.
- [06:05]
Emma Nelson
In what way have they managed to, what you describe it, throw each other under the bus?
- [06:10]
Paul Waldie
Well, you know, last year, just after Trump was reelected president, some of Canadian premiers, two Canadian premiers in particular, said, you know, Canada should go its own way. We should cut Mexico out of the trilateral partnership, trilateral agreement. There's been a lot of concern in Ontario for some time that auto plants in Canada are suffering because of Mexico, that the plant are relocating to Mexico where the, you know, salaries are lower and it's more cost effective. So there's been those kind of comments. Even the federal government last year said, yeah, it might not be a bad idea to sort of go our own way and strike a bilateral relationship with the US that's even been talked about a little bit now. However, Carney, since he's come into office and since he won the election in April, he has been much more along the lines of, no, Canada and Mexico need to stand together and this needs to be a three way agreement. So I think they managed to put some of that behind them. But there's a lot of, you know, bad feeling on the Mexican side and some skepticism about just how genuine Canada is about this bilateral relationship.
- [07:13]
Emma Nelson
Tell us a little bit more about how this is being formed. Who is driving this? The fact remains is that you've outlined the fact that there has been skepticism on both sides. But when you have a comparatively new leader in Mark Carney, and you have the Prime Minister Claudia Sheinbaum in Mexico, also not in post for a very long time, yet, they are both faced by the neighbour who is posing unprecedented problems towards them. So is there perhaps a sense of that, that dynamism and that striving for deeper cooperation might actually produce something more long term?
- [07:53]
Paul Waldie
I think that's the hope. I think this is being driven largely, maybe entirely by Canada. I think Canada needs this bilateral relationship to work much more than Mexico does. Canada's had a much tougher time with Trump. Canada and China were the only countries to issue or to slap retaliatory tariffs on the U.S. canada has since backed off on that. Mexico did not. Mexico got an extension on the tariff situation, the tariffs that Trump was gonna impose, Canada did not. So in terms of economics, I think Canada needs this more than Mexico does right now. And obviously, Mexico and Trump have an issue over fentanyl and immigration and these kinds of things. But Trump seems to get along very well with Sean Biden. He gets along a little bit better with Canada. But, you know, all of his talk and rhetoric has been about annexing Canada and that kind of thing. So I think Canada right now is looking a lot harder for places around the world to expand its trade. And then suddenly has kind of looked at Mexico. So I think this is much more driven by Canada than by Mexico.
- [08:53]
Emma Nelson
Where are these new markets that you're talking about there? The fact that there is a wider landscape of Canada on the back foot, very much back against the wall when it comes to having to deal with Donald Trump. So that idea that Canada is having to emerge to pivot, to find new markets, to find new paths, and indeed, almost to punch to match its weight.
- [09:13]
Paul Waldie
Well, yeah, I mean, Europe for the longest time has been the place where Canada thought it could really expand or open up some new opportunities. Canada signed a big agreement with the European Union almost 10 years ago. So I think Canada has always kind of looked at Europe, Britain, these kinds of places as more traditional kind of markets. And then Asia, China up until recently, when China has been quite aggressive on tariffs against Canadian products. So now kind of the third place has been Mexico. And I think the Mexicans feel that a little bit, but the trade between the countries is very small. I think Canadian exports, Mexico accounts for like 1% of Canadian exports, and Canada accounts for about 3% of Mexican exports. So, you know, the trade is not big. I do think there's some hope that there will be some energy infrastructure projects Canadian companies can participate in and have participated in already. There's a lot of mining in Mexico that Canadian companies are involved in, and this whole port construction in Mexico is seen as something that maybe Canadian companies can participate in. So, I mean, you know, who knows? Maybe they're finally discovered each other and this will blossom into something amazing. But it remains to be seen, and it really remains to be seen how close they will remain when those really tough negotiations over the Canada US Mexico trade deal start next year.
- [10:27]
Emma Nelson
Finally, just there was an article in the New York Times a couple of days ago which shone the spotlight on the Prime Minister, Mark Carney, and the fact that he was elected on a ticket of elbows up, which is that sporting expression which explains that sense of, you know, we're ready for a fight, we can take Trump on. The New York Times suggested that elbows down is what Carney's having to do, given the absolute reality of what dealing with Donald Trump in the White House actually feels like?
- [10:57]
Paul Waldie
Yeah. I mean, during the election campaign, just last winter, spring, Carney was very aggressive, saying, you know, we need these tariffs eliminated. We're going to get a good deal with the U.S. he was, you know, very, very patriotic and nationalist and that kind of thing, and that's what got him elected, albeit a minority government. But still, you know, he came out of the gate flying and saying, you know, he was really going to take this, take this on. And since then, there's been very little happen. I mean, there is no bilateral agreement, and now there's talk that there won't be one, that everything is going to be all the eggs are going to be put into the basket of this trilateral agreement between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico. You know, Carney has dropped the digital sales tax in Canada and got nothing in return. Negotiations with the US have been off and on and off and on. And I think for now, Canadians have some patience with what's going on. But pretty soon that patience is going to start wearing thin and people are going to start to wonder where is all this promised tough talk with the US and where is it going? Where is it headed and where's the results?
- [11:55]
Emma Nelson
Paul Waldey from the Globe and Mail, thank you so much for joining us. On Monocle Radio, we examine now another aspect of the trade wars emanating from the White House. In a little under seven hours, Donald Trump, fresh from the pomp of a state visit to the United Kingdom, will hold a telephone call with China's Xi Jinping. The backdrop is not a happy one, with tariffs imposed by each country on one another, inflicting damage on both sides. Well, to tell us more about what lies in store, Jonathan Chang is the Wall Street Journal's China Bureau chief. A very good morning to you, Jonathan.
- [12:36]
Jonathan Chang
Thanks. Happy to be here.
- [12:38]
Emma Nelson
So the main thrust of this or the main anticipated comments about this center on TikTok.
- [12:44]
Jonathan Chang
Yes, that's right. So TikTok, of course, is the popular short video app. It's very popular with the under 30 crowd, and it was created in China. So this is something that, before Trump returned to office, was a bilateral consent. Bilateral, sorry, not bilateral. Bipartisan consensus in Washington that something needed to be done about this. The app collects a lot of data on its users and is a potential national security threat. At least that was how it was sort of portrayed on both sides of the aisle. But I think Donald Trump has upended that conversation by highlighting how much it may have benefited his reelection campaign and now he's been trying to keep it alive and it's been kind of on life support. This, this attempt to have it sell itself to American buyers or be blocked from operating in the US but we've had to can kick down the road a few times. And I think what we're hoping for with this phone call is a once and for all kind of agreement here that would at least give us some clarity into TikTok's long term future, whatever it may be.
- [13:51]
Emma Nelson
Do we know what that might look like, what that deal might look like?
- [13:55]
Jonathan Chang
Well, there's a lot of chatter. We've had our reporting as well that points to what may be in there. But we are dealing, of course, with a topic that has been a hot potato. It's been tossed to and fro. Donald Trump, of course, can change his mind. And so I don't want to get too far ahead of it, but I do think that it looks like we're probably going to see some mix here of US buyers that will probably take a majority stake in TikTok USA. There's probably going to be some sort of a mechanism here to ensure that the data produced and generated by American users stays in the U.S. and finally, there may be some aspect of a board seat here or some sort of government control or government input from the US Government that is, that would have some sort of a say or veto power over certain decisions that are made with respect to how this app operates.
- [14:49]
Emma Nelson
In the U.S. the TikTok story of the TikTok issue has become almost like a, a lightning rod, hasn't it, Jonathan? In terms of the way that we assess the relationship between the United States and, and China, the, the, the trade and the economic and the cultural dependency that the two countries absolutely have on each other now. And yet the fact that politically and well, geopolitically they are adversaries and, and there is a great deal of suspicion between the two nations.
- [15:19]
Jonathan Chang
Yeah, that's right. I mean, on the face of it, TikTok is not a geopolitical instrument. One would think it is lighthearted, it does memes, it does goofy videos and such. And yet, of course, it's one of China's real big shining global successes on the soft power stage. Now, you could say that China doesn't create all the content, but creating a platform this powerful. Mark Zuckerberg would give an arm and a leg to be able to have something like this. But it was the Chinese that created the platform that got this viral. And in a certain sense America is dealing with something it hasn't had to deal with, an adversary that is geopolitical, but also has some real soft power pull. And so that's why it's become a little bit complicated here. The national security implications are all tied up in this. And then you have Donald Trump, of course, crediting TikTok with helping him with younger voters and winning back the White House.
- [16:13]
Emma Nelson
Why do you think TikTok is prepared to part. Sorry? Why do you think that China is prepared to part with parts with bits of TikTok at this point?
- [16:21]
Jonathan Chang
No, it's a very good question. I think we've been very clear in reporting that Xi Jinping, Beijing more generally has been very concerned about the algorithm because the algorithm is really the secret sauce that makes TikTok what it is. It just has a way of knowing what users want to see and that's why it's so addictive. And that algorithm is proprietary. It is powerful. You're able to control minds and shape views. And so China was very loathe to let that happen. TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, is based in Beijing and they have to answer to the Communist Party. And so for a long time that was a non starter and that was part of the reason why we didn't have a deal materialize earlier. What we're starting to see, it looks like, is that this TikTok issue is becoming one of many different issues, including of course, semiconductors, Nvidia, all this sort of stuff, as well as soybeans, agricultural products, rare earth minerals, all this other stuff. It's basically expanded the issue a little bit by making it an across the waterfront type of an issue. And once you have that sort of dynamic take place, then there can be a little bit of horse trading here where maybe China on its own wouldn't allow TikTok's algorithm to fall into American hands. But maybe if they get a concession on another front, they may be willing to do that.
- [17:43]
Emma Nelson
I mean, you mentioned a moment ago that the fact that China has told tech firms in China to stop buying Nvidia's AI chips, I mean, that is obviously a very, very open declaration of sort of an adversarial way of doing things. But more broadly, Jonathan, what does the future hold in store for the trade of the tariff negotiations? Having seen an escalation beyond all escalations earlier on this year when tariffs were imposed and increased at an alarming, and then everybody backed down. What lessons do we believe were learned from that?
- [18:20]
Jonathan Chang
Well, I think the US has learned a lesson here that China actually does have a pretty strong hand to play. Their economy is not as strong as it was five years ago, 10 years ago, that's for sure. There is a lot more instability. But on a lot of metrics, China is actually doing quite well, I think, especially at the leading edge of technology. I think China sees itself as leading on things like electric vehicles, electric vehicle batteries, solar panels, green energy, even on chips and on AI, where the US Had a big head start. They're nipping at America's heels and they're really the only big competitor that the US Has. Despite all of these restrictions that both the Biden and now the Trump 2 administration has put on China and its access to chips and to lithography devices and all sorts of high end things. And with, with the rare earth export ban that China put on, especially exports to America, I think that really sent a message to Washington because what it did was it denied automakers in Detroit a very, very valuable input. I don't think Washington appreciated the degree to which China had this leverage and was willing to use it. I think that's one lesson that's definitely come out on the US Side and that's why you've seen Donald Trump go on Truth Social and talk about how he wants to build a good relationship. He hasn't been able to bully China around quite as easily as he thought he might have been able to.
- [19:48]
Emma Nelson
Jonathan Chang joining us on the line from Beijing. He's the Wall Street Journal's chief bureau chief there. Thank you so much for joining us on Monocle Radio.
- [19:56]
Andrew Muller
Still to come, we learned instead that the way Americans could come together as one in the wake of this tragedy was to try to get each other fired for not taking it seriously enough.
- [20:07]
Emma Nelson
We'll hear more from Andrew Muller a little later on today's Globalist. Each of us has a craft, a calling that inspires us. Whether it's how a coffee is brewed.
- [20:21]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
A chair is built, or how money.
- [20:23]
Emma Nelson
Is looked after, there's a love for the work, a care that compels you forward. For us at ubs, it's about designing a unique outcome for you. Because whatever your craft may be, ours is built around helping you succeed. UBS banking is our craft. 7:20 here in London, 9:20 in Athens. Let's have a look at the newspapers for today. Joining me for a view of what's making the headlines in Greece and Southern Europe, the journalist Emmanuel Papavasiliou is in the studio. Good morning.
- [21:02]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
Good morning.
- [21:03]
Paul Waldie
How are you all good?
- [21:04]
Emma Nelson
Am I allowed to call you Manos or do we call you Emmanuel?
- [21:06]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
What would you prefer? Of course, of course. It's a sort.
- [21:08]
Emma Nelson
Okay, It's Manos. How's life? What you up to?
- [21:12]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
Yeah, life is good. Life is great. Well, quite busy lately with stories, to be honest with you.
- [21:19]
Emma Nelson
Good, glad to hear it. And in that context, what great stories have you picked up for us in the Greek and Southern European papers? Let's start with Greece and foreign affairs.
- [21:29]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
So basically next week, Prime Minister. The Greek Prime Minister Kyrgiakos Mitsotakis is expected to meet Turkish President Recep ten Erdogan on Tuesday on the sidelines of the UN General assembly in New York. And basically this meeting is very important because it comes at a very delicate moment. Relations between the two countries have soured in recent days because both countries have been using very strong rhetoric about their claims in the Aegean Sea. On the sidelines also, Ankara has warned of dangerous consequences as Cyprus moves to bolster its defense with the help of Israeli support. Meanwhile, Greece is feeling a bit left out lately after Egypt, along term Greek ally, held its first naval drills with Turkey in 13 years. So the Michotagi Erdogan meeting will be closely watched. As things stand at the moment, though, we should not expect them to find any significant diplomatic common ground. It's just that it would be a bad look if they too both were at the UNGA in New York next week and they just didn't meet.
- [22:30]
Emma Nelson
So this is literally. This is not going anything deeper other than just to be seen to publicly making contact.
- [22:37]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
Yeah, basically the meeting is more like in the category of being at the same party and not saying hello.
- [22:42]
Emma Nelson
Okay, that's great. Do we expect anything to happen from this meeting? I mean, I think we've answered that question already, but the way that the press is looking at it, Ekaterini and the like, what are the Greeks looking for?
- [22:56]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
The Greeks are looking for a strong prime minister, basically, and the reassurance that they have someone to back them up and champion them in the face of a country, Turkey, that is making strong claims and being very strong in their rhetoric. So it's kind of more like a show of strength.
- [23:21]
Emma Nelson
Okay, let's move on to a story. It's covered in a British newspaper in the Guardian, but it is to do with a Greek beach, a very, very beautiful, a very unusual looking Greek beach, which has become almost like the poster child for over tourism.
- [23:39]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
Yeah, yeah. So in Milos, it's the famous Sarakiniko beach that we call, or in English, it's often called the Moon beach because it has these otherworldly white rock formations and it's basically a little bit like you are walking in the surface of the moon because of it. The story here is that basically there were plans to build a five star hotel near it, a resort. And the move has now been halted because the project's license was revoked after officials found missing approvals and poor documentations. And for locals and environmentalists who were campaign for this to stop, this is a victory. But the whole thing is important because it highlighted the broader dilemma across Greek islands. That is yes, Greece's booming tourism industry brings a record of revenues, but what happens when you start building hotel after hotel after hotel and, and you ruin the place basically.
- [24:36]
Emma Nelson
And it's the decision making process, I mean it is who has the final say when it comes to this. Because obviously Greece as a nation is so dependent on tourism and celebrates it in and it's such an important part of its economy and its society, etc. But when you have something coming along with a five star hotel, that idea that who actually gets to decide what, what happens is, is a really complicated one totally.
- [25:01]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
And, and it's always the dilemma of like yes, we want more tourism as Greece, tourism is the main revenue of the country. Tourism is where the money comes from. But what happens where you overbuild so that more tourists comes, more revenue comes, but in the end you end up ruining the place.
- [25:20]
Emma Nelson
And let's carry on with that sort of country branding and country and sort of national pride and identity. The Greek Cultural Ministry is, is doing its best actually to make sure that local areas actually have much more control of how they project themselves to the outside world. This is again from a Greek paper, isn't it?
- [25:40]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
Exactly, exactly. So like, the Greek Culture Ministry has just announced a new initiative that is designed to help communities to tell their own story in a way. So working with, alongside three Greek universities, the ministry has created a formula, what they call it scientific tools, but it's basically a formula for each local area to create its own kind of cultural branding. And the aim is to highlight basically their unique identity, strengthen its regional cohesion, lay the groundwork for sustainable cultural development, etc. And basically what happens is if it's successful, it may not only bring more tourists, but also give locals a stronger sense of ownership on how their culture is presented in the world and you know, create their own branding in order to attract more tourism, as I mentioned before, without much more help help from, you know, in a national level.
- [26:35]
Emma Nelson
And indeed that helps that they depend. I mean, how much do local, you know, certain places need help when it comes to local branding?
- [26:44]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
They do indeed, because Greece is actually very multifaceted from place to place, and you need to brand it accordingly. Usually when someone from abroad pictures Greece, they think of Sodorini, they think of, like, beaches, they think of the sea, they think, etc. But there are so many more places, mountains, forests that don't have as much representation, and that's a good way for them to promote themselves.
- [27:11]
Emma Nelson
Finally, an astonishing story involving a Greek abbot, some Byzantine relics and his grandma.
- [27:20]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
Yes, this is the funny one. So the abbot of a monastery, basically in Peloponnese and five other people have been the subjects of a marathon pretrial hearing last week. Basically, they faced charges of attempting to illegally sell church relics from the Byzantine time for the price of 200,000. So obviously the fact that a priest is linked to a criminal activity has captured the attention in Greece. But it's also got a little bit funny when in his defense, he claimed that the 17 Byzantine icons and the two rare Gospels that are dating back in the 18th century actually belonged to his own grandmother. And it gets even deeper when the authorities started saying that this gang was actually stealing artifacts across religious sites in the Peloponnese and selling them to German auction houses. But what's good about this story, apart from the funny part, is that it's actually a victory for the newly formed Greek FBI operation that was formed in September last year and has been receiving a lot of snubbing ever since. So that's their actual first victory.
- [28:27]
Emma Nelson
Manos, Emmanuel, Papa Vasiliu, thank you so much for joining me in this studio. You're listening to the Globalist on Monocle Radio. Now a quick look at some of the other stories we're keeping an eye on today. The United States has vetoed a UN resolution demanding an immediate and permanent ceasefire in Gaza, along with increased humanitarian access. The US Official Morgan Ortega said it failed to condemn Hamas or recognize Israel's right to defend itself. Israel's carried out a large wave of strikes in southern Lebanon. The Israeli Defense Force said the targets were infrastructure belonging to Hezbollah. Donald Trump suggested that television networks which give him bad publicity, should have their licenses taken away. It follows ABC's decision to suspend Jimmy Kimmel show for remarks that the host made about the murder of the President's ally, Charlie Kirk. France has suspended counterterrorism cooperation with Mali and is expelling Malian diplomats. It comes after Malian authorities arrested a French embassy employee on suspicion of espionage. And a court in South Korea has awarded damages to the performers behind a virtual K pop group after a commentator said they could be ugly in real life. The performers behind the group Plava said their feelings were hurt by the comment. This is the Globalist. Stay tuned. Now, this year's World Design Congress has just taken place at the Barbican Centre here in London. And the events theme was a simple one, but it was important. How do we design for the planet? With a global cast of speakers and guests, this was the perfect forum to explore how the design community can respond to climate change. Monocle's executive producer, Carlotta Robello was in attendance and she got the chance to sit down with Lord Norman Foster, the legendary British architect behind many globally loved buildings, including the gherkin here in London. Carlotta talked to him about quality of life and human centered design. And she began by asking Lord Foster how the climate and sustainability conversation has changed over the course of his career.
- [30:35]
Lord Norman Foster
Well, we were promoting everything that is now called sustainable green in the late 1960s, early 70s, and at that time it was a fringe activity and now it's mainstream and everybody's talking about it. So we've been fairly consistent on that and of course moved with the technology. And the technology, we mustn't forget, is a means to improve the quality of our lives. Whether that's in a building, whether it's in a city, in urbanity. That is really the power of design. And we have the means to live a good life, to have a quality of life and at the same time reduce our carbon footprint. We have the technology, we have the means.
- [31:16]
Emma Nelson
One of the other points, when you decided to present two of the case studies of work you've done that you're quite proud of, unexpectedly they weren't building. So I. So I'm kind of going to ask you to retell that story. And we're talking here about the suspension bridge.
- [31:31]
Lord Norman Foster
Yes. I mean, there was a journalist who was interviewing me and said, you've done so much in London. I mean, what are your favorites? What are the ones that you really rate, or whatever. And I said, they're not buildings. Because if I talk about the effect of design on the citizens of London and the visitors, then it's going to be Millennium Bridge and it's going to be Trafalgar Square, because those influence the quality of urban life to a far greater extent than any individual building, however powerful that building and important that building might be. And of course, if you take the number of people who cross from the north bank to the south, which has Equalized. So it's brought prosperity to the traditionally poorest south bank from the rich financial center of the financial square mile and Trafalgar Square. Most people have forgotten it was a horrendous pedestrian roundabout. You know, you risked your life going there. The heart of London was largely occupied by pigeons and one or two people feeding them. And so the transformational effect of what we did there has been revolutionary. It's now become the living room of London, the heart of London for cultural events, concerts, celebrations, festivities, whatever. So it's perhaps a way of saying that something we take for granted, the infrastructure, the pedestrian spaces, those influence our quality of life and we can make them better. So it's a plea for the infrastructure of connectivity. Public spaces and cities hold the key to climate change. That's not to say the buildings are not important. Of course they are. I'm an architect. It's my lifeblood.
- [33:17]
Emma Nelson
Are you worried about the pace of urbanization?
- [33:21]
Lord Norman Foster
The pace of urbanization, it's very difficult to perhaps comprehend that where we are right now. But those parts of the world which are rapidly urbanizing, I mean the equivalent over the next 25 years is the construction of 11 cities the size of London every year for the next 25, five years. So that's a daunting challenge. And what I was doing at this event was saying we have a choice. We can encourage those kinds of cities which have a low carbon footprint, which everybody wants to go to as Monocle itself as a magazine. Select cities, they're all a particular kind of city. They're pedestrian friendly, they're walkable, they have good public transport, they have neighborhoods, they have a historic core. They're not the carbon sprawling cities. So they consume half the energy. They're more desirable, they're healthier. And they also conserve nature and biodiversity. It's the win win.
- [34:18]
Emma Nelson
When we talk about indeed quality of life in cities, it's all those factors and almost also then there's this element of community supporting you and enabling that community. We know that one of the main issues that cities face nowadays is loneliness.
- [34:32]
Lord Norman Foster
In cities, loneliness is a cat. It's also promoting exercise, which is health.
- [34:36]
Emma Nelson
And that's where design can be powerful.
- [34:38]
Lord Norman Foster
I mean, as ever, it's a constant. Everything is designed. It's very easy to think that things happen by accident. It doesn't mean if there's a designer is not involved, somebody's making a decision. We live in a man made world.
- [34:51]
Emma Nelson
Your foundation sits in Spain and that's just two hours away. And often we talk about how just a slight adjustment in perspective can boost creativity, can allow us to see things differently. And I'm curious if splitting your time between there and here has also had that effect on you. And of course on top of all the travels as well. But does a slight change in perspective help when it comes to finding inspiration?
- [35:16]
Lord Norman Foster
Yes. The practice is based here in London and there are certain things the practice can do. There are some things the practice can't do or it's difficult to do and the foundation can do. So the foundation has a global reach. The graduate class that I was illustrating in this Talk comes from 23 countries, but they are separate in every sense, legally, financially. And so it's helpful to have a geographic difference. And Madrid, like London, is pedestrian friendly, it's compact, it's high density. You could argue that also it has in its growth, it sprawled as a carbon model, not to its advantage. And London, notwithstanding the fact that the green belt which constrains London, so London has not sprawled in a way that many other cities has done. That's a rather interesting difference between the two because I think the politicians are not aware of that effect of the green belt. It's seen as a developer's opportunity to kind of dilute and divide rather than a great invention. Interestingly reinforced at the height of World War II when the master plan for London, the Abercrombie plan, was drawn up in the height of the war. So as a real gesture of regeneration and optimism for a future, that was.
- [36:40]
Emma Nelson
Lord Norman Foster there talking to Monocle's Carlotta Rebelo. You're listening to Monocle Radio now, as we've just been hearing from Lord Foster there, it's no secret that Europe's cities are constantly changing from where people want to live to how they define luxury and what a lifestyle really means today. So where are Europeans choosing to move to and what are the some of the key factors driving this change? Well, that's precisely the theme of a new report by the global real estate consultancy Knight Frank. I'm delighted to say that Kate. Kate Everett Allen, the head of European Residential Research at Night Frank and the editor of the European Lifestyle Report, is joining me now. Very warm welcome to Monocle Radio. Good morning, Kate.
- [37:25]
Kate Everett Allen
Good morning, Emma. Thank you.
- [37:26]
Emma Nelson
When you were putting this, this report together, what were you looking for?
- [37:31]
Kate Everett Allen
So we set out really to understand not just where the wealthy were moving to within Europe, but why wealth is obviously rising and more mobile than ever. So estimates vary, but around sort of 100,000 high net worth individuals are exporting, expected to Relocate this year alone, perhaps more. And we're in this huge period of flux with sort of geopolitical tensions, trade wars, tax regime overhauls, visa changes, and perhaps one of the biggest ones really the revolution around remote work. And so whilst we know that places like Dubai are really high on the radar of the wealthy, Europe is also a really clear beneficiary and we've seen a huge change in policy shifts. So we're trying to sort of understand how the wealthy are recalibrating and seeking opportunities that now sort of align their lifestyle goals with fiscal advantages as well. So the report really maps out how cross border wealth flows are reshaping Europe's cities and their communities.
- [38:32]
Emma Nelson
So you're combining obviously the movement of wealth, but also the requirements of a globally mobile community here who have the option of, let's say to go to Dubai, but choose to go to somewhere like Europe. And the findings in this report, what are people's priorities? Do they want ease of movement? Do they want security, do they want excellent health provision? What is it that people really say that they find important?
- [38:59]
Kate Everett Allen
We did a survey of 700 high net worth individuals, mainly across Europe, UK, the US, to ask them sort of what was most important. And actually it was healthcare that came out on top and obviously a trend that we've seen grow since the pandemic. So having access to really good healthcare was critical, followed by international schools. So quite a lot of the respondents were sort of in their 30s or 40s with families, so that was a key driver. And then finally was transport link. So making sure they've got that accessibility, digital connectivity was also critical. So 71% said that high speed broadband would shape their choice. But interestingly for me, cultural life was further down the list of priorities. So that was sixth. What we sort of learned from the survey really was that these were globally mobile professionals who were looking to build sustainable lives but improve their overall quality of life.
- [39:56]
Emma Nelson
And when you mean sustainable, I mean how important is sustainability when it comes to choosing where you live?
- [40:04]
Kate Everett Allen
We've seen a fundamental shift over the past two or three years. So talking to many of our agents across Europe, two or three years ago, they would still be being asked by buyers about the amenities in a particular area, whereas now it's much more common for them to get questions around things like water security, solar panels, climate resilience and also sort of insurance as well, whether there are additional premiums if you're on the coast, etc. Etc. And I think policy is accelerating this trend. So in France, for example, There are now new energy performance standards. So properties that are rated sort of G can no longer be let as short term rentals. And that's going to keep changing year on year so that the restrictions will get tighter. So even buyers that are relocating permanently, many will probably want some rental flexibility for when they return home. So they are asking about sort of the energy efficiency. Efficiency of these homes is a sort of key practical investment consideration.
- [41:05]
Emma Nelson
It's interesting, all these considerations that you have to think about. The fact that you were talking a moment ago about is there a good international school? But then you're also mentioning, is there water security? There are clearly some surprises in this report.
- [41:18]
Kate Everett Allen
Yeah, there's a number of surprises from the survey in particular. Perhaps the biggest one for me was the sort of strength or speed of the urban revival that we've seen. So for 50% of respondents said that they would now opt for a city over a coastal, rural or alpine location. And that's in sharp contrast to what we saw during the pandemic. And even up until the last couple of years, we were still seeing that sort of remnants of the race for space. So cities like Lisbon, London, Madrid were top of the list when we asked high net worth individuals where they want to relocate to. So it seems like the sort of connectivity, the convenience, perhaps the sort of anonymity that cities provide is back in vogue, particularly for those that are seeking a permanent base. And many are sort of shying away from the hassle factor of having a bigger rural estate or property that will require extra upkeep.
- [42:12]
Emma Nelson
And that leads into the idea of what the ultra high net worth individual, or indeed family now sees as luxury. And it is the eternal debate about what is luxury. And many say privacy and time. But from what you've just said there, it's actually, can I jump on a plane? And also can I, can I leave, lead a quiet life? The element of ostentation is not necessarily the priority.
- [42:35]
Kate Everett Allen
Yeah, exactly that. I think we've got an interview in the report with our head of international sales, Mark Harvey, and he sort of picked out some of the key trends that he's noticed in the last year or so. And he was saying that actually luxury today is less about sort of scale and opulence, as you mentioned, and more about sort of well being and authenticity. So what he's seeing is that a Provencal farmhouse, for example, with olive groves, or a Mallorcan Cortico that's got sort of a nice shaded courtyard, those sorts of properties are resonating far more than A generic luxury new build property. And what he's seeing is that demand for integrated wellness spacing that support sort of health but are also embedded in vibrant year round communities as well. So privacy and security is still important, but we're seeing that sort of health and wellness trend come to the fore.
- [43:27]
Emma Nelson
Briefly, who's doing this? Well, which city? I mean I think you mentioned Lisbon, Madrid and London. But who's actually got their eye on this ride?
- [43:37]
Kate Everett Allen
Lisbon remains hugely popular, not just with sort of Europeans but with us bargain. London's resilient. I think that's a value play. We've seen prices fall. Madrid is capturing a lot of interest, but also Alpine markets. I know they're not cities but we are still seeing strong demand in places like Chamonix and Verbier that are year round resorts now as busy in the summer as they are in the winter.
- [44:00]
Emma Nelson
Kate Everett Allen, head of European Residential Research at Knight Frank, thank you so much for joining us on the globalist iq, EQ and AI. Three components key to the craft of innovation at ubs. Because to stay ahead in a rapidly evolving age, you need a partner with decades of experience, endless passion for the work and a finger on the pulse of leading technologies. Bridging human expertise with artificial intelligence all to elevate you. UBS banking is our craft. Time for an update on what's happening in the uae. I'm joined now by Inzaman Rashid, who's Monocor's Gulf correspondent. Good morning Inzamam. How's Dubai looking today?
- [44:57]
Inzaman Rashid
Morning Emma. Yeah, Dubai is looking all right. The weather is getting a lot better here, which is nice. And we're just seeing a lot more tourists arriving to Dubai which maybe isn't the nicer side of things. If you are now a resident, as.
- [45:11]
Emma Nelson
I am, where are they all coming from and why are they making your life so miserable?
- [45:15]
Inzaman Rashid
Brits, Brits. Brits. That's all I'm gonna say.
- [45:18]
Emma Nelson
Where are you from? Inzamum, Britain. Excellent. Just getting that straight. Okay, tell us about the stuff that's happening in your part of the world. I mean there was this astonishing sort of jaw dropping defense pact created between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. It's made all the headlines because many people thought it sor of came from nowhere. But there's an article in the Financial Times today that talks about this thing having been the product of something that's been going on for at least two, if not nearly three decades.
- [45:46]
Inzaman Rashid
Yes, a conversation that has been going on between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for quite some time. And it's My understanding, particularly from the Pakistani sides, that this has been something in the works, but it was pushed forward and it was rapidly signed over the last few days because of what has happened in Qatar recently. So this is in Riyadh. Saudi Arabia signed a new defence cooperation pact with Pakistan and on paper it's a wide ranging agreement covering training, joint exercises and weapons collaboration. But I think in reality here, Emma, it's marking what is the start of a significant strategic shift, particularly here in the Gulf. When you think of Saudi Arabia security, it's rested heavily under the American umbrella when you think of arms deals and Patriot missile batteries and the deployment of U.S. troops during moments of crisis. But the recent events have really shaken that reliance. And the deadly Israeli strike on Doha has underlined the Gulf's vulnerability. And it's reminded leaders that their skies remain exposed despite Western systems. Enter Pakistan, a longtime partner, home to one of the world's largest standing armies and crucially, very crucially, a nuclear power. Now, Riyadh isn't seeking nuclear weapons of its own, at least not openly. But by signing this deal, I think it signals to allies and adversaries alike that it has other options for Gulf states. It's also a way of sending a message to Washington. Don't take our alignment with you for granted. In a way, and I think the wider GCC has also taken this into consideration because they've announced that it will increase intelligence sharing and hold joint air defence drills as well as a result of what happened in Qatar.
- [47:50]
Emma Nelson
Let's move on to another story. The Dubai fountain is to reopen. Now, for anybody who's been to Dubai, you know, there's many tourists who have just turned up on your doorstep. They don't have a fountain to look at for a while and they haven't had for five months, have they?
- [48:05]
Inzaman Rashid
Yeah, for the last five months over the summer period, where usually the tourism drops, but actually this summer I think it has been quite steady in terms of the number of tourists coming in. But good news, because the fountains are reopening. They're reopening on the 1st of October after those five months of refurbishment. These are the largest fountains, dancing fountains in the world. As you'd expect in Dubai, everything is the biggest. They sit right at the foot of the Burj Khalifa, the largest, the tallest building in the world. And it's become one of the most recognized attractions in the Gulf. They were brought in back in 2009. It's choreographed shows combining the water, light and music. And they've really been the mainstay of downtown Dubai. Now, the closure was because they've created a comprehensive program of refurbishment. That's what Imaar the developers have said. And now that this new show will be even bigger, even better, there'll be more space for even more tourists to gather around and witness the spectacle. And it is one thing about this is I quite like all the tourists coming together, witnessing it. You can see it when you're having some food over from the Burj Khalifa, looking down on the fountains. It's a really, really nice area that they've built and it's exciting that it's coming back.
- [49:29]
Emma Nelson
Indeed. I mean, you do have obviously this very complicated relationship with tourism in Dubai. But the idea though is that this is actually something where you say tourists are welcome here. This is actually the atmosphere from the tourists is something that's really, really rather special.
- [49:46]
Inzaman Rashid
Yeah, it really is. And also on occasions as well because the Burj Khalifa often lights up to celebrate different occasions. When I kind of think of Ramad Dan or E Time, even Independence Days as well. It often showcases the flag of a country on the Burj Khalifa. And then next to it you've got the fountains doing a dance, which I think is really, really nice. And there's so many food and beverage places around that area. You've got a little souk as well, the timeout market, which is really interesting. And I just think now that Ima have invested a lot of money into this fountain, realizing it's a really, really solid attraction over the last 15, 16 years or so, they've even gone bigger and better to bring it back. And the five months break, I think a lot of people who have probably visited Dubai over that time were probably quite disappointed that the fountains weren't on. But come from the 1st of October they will be.
- [50:37]
Emma Nelson
And very quickly. I mean, how is Dubai coping with the influx of tourists?
- [50:42]
Inzaman Rashid
Look, Dubai does it very well. We just crossed 4 million residents and so that's one aspect. But tourists just keep on coming and people are returning here as well. There are enough food and beverage spots for all these people. They are growing consistently as well. Hotels and luxury hotels keep growing out here as well. The only issue is, and we've spoken about this before, Emma, is traffic. The traffic is so intense out here and that's why the governments are working at speed to get new, new metro lines in place and also Etihad Rail, which will connect all the Emirates across the uae.
- [51:23]
Emma Nelson
Inzaman Rashid, thank you so much for joining us on the line from Dubai. You're listening to the Globalist. Finally, it's Friday, so it's time for what we learned. Here's Andrew Muller.
- [51:41]
Andrew Muller
We learned this one week of a new sixth step on the Kubler Ross scale of grief. We learned that after denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance comes what might be characterized as any who how are you.
- [51:56]
Paul Waldie
Holding up over the last day and a half, sir?
- [51:58]
Jonathan Chang
I think very good.
- [51:59]
Paul Waldie
And by the way, right there you see all the trucks?
- [52:02]
Jonathan Chang
They just started construction of the new.
- [52:04]
Paul Waldie
Ballroom for the White House.
- [52:05]
Andrew Muller
We learned this and much else besides from the aftermath of the appalling public murder of a young political activist. We learned that across the spectrum of American politics, a sombre contemplative hush had duly descended as politicians and partisans alike pondered deeply upon their own responsibility for escalating the feverish temperature of the discourse to this perilous height, resolved solemnly to conduct themselves with greater civility from this day forward, to recognise that their opponents are not their enemies, to look foremost for the good in their fellow citizens, and to work together to address decisively the damage done day in and day out by dogmatic fealty to a particular interpretation of a single clause of a 238 year old document which enables, on average, give or take, 300Americans to be shot every day, around 50 fatally. Ha ha, no. Have you met the 21st century United States? And so forth. We learned instead that the way Americans could come together as one in the wake of this tragedy was to try to get each other fired for not taking it seriously enough.
- [53:20]
Paul Waldie
So when you see someone celebrating Charlie's.
- [53:22]
Jonathan Chang
Murder, call them out in hell.
- [53:24]
Andrew Muller
Call their employer. We learned this from Vice President J.D. vads, who, in fairness, is someone who spends most of his day hoping someone in particular will commit an indiscretion sufficient to get them heaved out of their job. We also learned that while U.S. attorney General Pam Bondi may be all in on the Second Amendment of the U.S. constitution, she does not appear to have gotten round to reading the first Employers.
- [53:50]
Emma Nelson
You have an obligation to get rid of people. You need to look at people who are saying horrible things and they shouldn't.
- [53:56]
Kate Everett Allen
Be working with with you.
- [53:57]
Andrew Muller
We, for one whimsical news monologue, look forward to seeing this stricture against employing people who say horrible things being imposed where Attorney General Bondi works. But we learned that at least one Republican grandee, specifically House Speaker Mike Johnson, had absorbed some sobering lessons and was now fully seized of the necessity of restoring courtesy to the national conversation.
- [54:21]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
Leaders can cannot call their political opponents.
- [54:24]
Jonathan Chang
Nazis and fascists and enemies of the.
- [54:26]
Emma Nelson
State because they disagree with their policy priorities.
- [54:30]
Emmanuel Papavasiliou
I mean, this, this is something we.
- [54:31]
Emma Nelson
Should have learned in, in grade school.
- [54:33]
Andrew Muller
And who could disagree with that?
- [54:35]
Lord Norman Foster
The presidency needs. I know what it needs. You meet some people. Among the worst that you're going to meet though, are in our country. I call it the enemy from within. We have the outside enemy. So you can say China, you can say Russia, you can say, you can say Kim Jong Un, you can say it's the enemy from within, all the scum that we have to deal with. And it is the enemy from within. And they're very dangerous. They're Marxists and communists and fascists.
- [55:02]
Andrew Muller
In fairness, we learned that the President had been giving some thought to what role he could usefully play in healing his nation at this time of trauma.
- [55:11]
Kate Everett Allen
How do we fix this country?
- [55:13]
Paul Waldie
How do we come back together?
- [55:14]
Lord Norman Foster
I'll tell you, tell you something that's going to get me in trouble, but I couldn't care less.
- [55:17]
Andrew Muller
In further fairness, we learned that the President may have been distracted by his tireless labors healing other nations.
- [55:24]
Lord Norman Foster
Myself, that was unsolvable. Azerbaijan and Albania. It was going on for many, many years. I had the prime ministers and presidents in my office. They sat so far apart.
- [55:36]
Paul Waldie
The chair.
- [55:36]
Jonathan Chang
One chair was there, one chair was there. I said, fellas, get together, come on.
- [55:40]
Andrew Muller
And they're expression, perhaps, who knows of the 2100km that lie between the two countries capitals. Which may be why Azerbaijan and Albania have never fought a war against each other. Unless maybe the President is thinking of the period when Azerbaijan as part of the Russian Empire and Albania as part of the Ottoman ditto were on opposite sides in a variety of scraps. So maybe he is talking about the Russo Turkish War of 18, 1977-78, and is claiming credit for the Treaty of San Stefano, which would actually not be the least probable thing for which he has helped himself to plaudits. Am I right? All those golf trophies, for starters, but. And maybe we'll need some sombre reflective satire being used to make a serious point. MUSIC playing UNDER from here on, from here on. Not from Heron. For we learned that you can't joke about this stuff literally. Attentive listeners may recall that circa the beginning of this week's monologue, we essayed a mild jape about the President's apparent swift moving on from last week's event. At the risk of tempting fate. We did so confident in the knowledge that the only consequences that will likely befall us will be the deafening applause for and fulsome congratulations upon yet another faultlessly conceived and executed wry sidelong look at the week's news. We learned that it's not like that in the United States anymore. And we learned this from Jimmy Kimmel, the now former late night chat show host who included this quip in one of his recent monologues about the clip of President Trump which kicked off this monologue. This is not how an adult grieves the murder of someone he called a friend.
- [57:35]
Paul Waldie
This is how a four year old mourns a goldfish.
- [57:38]
Andrew Muller
We learned that as a consequence of this trivial merriment, Kimmel's network, the Disney owned ABC had suspended Kimmel show following menaces from the head of US Media regulator, the Federal Communications Commission, who owes his job to, you can probably guess which president. We learned if we're honest, that we are experiencing a certain difficulty reconciling the actions of this administration of self declared free speech warriors, which have also included harassing Stephen Colbert off the air and shaking down and or suing cbs, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal among others. And their words in Washington. There is a new sheriff in town and under Donald Trump's leadership. We may disagree with your views but.
- [58:22]
Paul Waldie
We will fight to defend your right to offer it in the public square.
- [58:25]
Andrew Muller
Agree or disagree in your own time, Mr. Vice President. For Monocle Radio I'm Andrew Muller.
- [58:33]
Emma Nelson
Thank you very much indeed for that Andrew Muller. And that's all the time we have for today's program. The warmest of thanks to all my guests and to the producers Hassan Anderson, Carlos Rebelo and Ryuma Takahashi. Our researcher was Daniella Brauer Smith and our studio matt manager was Steph Chungu. After the headlines. More music on the way. The briefings live at midday here in the in London. The Globalist is back at the same time on Monday. Hope you can join me for that if you can. But for now from me, Emma Nelson, goodbye. Thank you very much for listening. Have a great weekend. Sam.