Why the EU-Australia trade deal is a significant moment for the world

Summary

The Globalist by Monocle

Episode: Why the EU–Australia Trade Deal is a Significant Moment for the World

Date: March 24, 2026
Host: Emma Nelson

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Overview

This episode of The Globalist explores the newly signed EU–Australia trade deal, examining why it took eight years to finalize and why it matters in the current unpredictable geopolitical and economic environment. Broader segments cover Italian and Danish politics, Norway’s EV breakthrough, regional European news, the pressures on New Zealand during the Gulf crisis, and macro trends in urban living and real estate.

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1. EU–Australia Trade Deal: Why It Took So Long and Why It Matters

Segment starts: [03:08]

Key Discussion Points

• Lengthy Negotiations:

  • Talks began in 2018 between two "natural partners" ([03:13]) due to common values but stalled multiple times.
  • 2023 collapse: Australia walked away over EU resistance on agricultural quotas and demands for geographical indicator protections (like Feta and Prosecco).
  • Talks resumed when global economic pressures, especially US tariffs, war in Ukraine, and supply chain concerns, forced both sides to compromise.

• Breakthroughs and Sticking Points:

  • Australia secured a carve-out for Prosecco labeling, but will need to phase it out on exports over 10 years ([03:13]).
  • Paul Osborne: “Australia did manage to get a carve out on Prosecco, but only inside Australia to phase that name out for exports of sparkling wine within 10 years.” ([03:39])
  • Agricultural quotas on beef and lamb were a key dispute; final terms fell short of farmers’ hopes ([05:00]).

• Economic Impact:

  • Deal valued at €66bn/year (AU$110bn).
  • Australia estimates annual benefits of AU$10bn; EU sees potential for a one-third increase in exports in a decade ([05:00]).
  • 99% of tariffs on EU exports to Australia will be eliminated, especially benefiting wine, chocolate, fruit, vegetables, and cars ([05:00], [08:48]).
  • EU gets secure access to vital Australian critical minerals—seen as strategic in reducing dependence on China ([05:00]).

Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Symbolic Resonance and Security:

  • Paul Osborne: “Opening new doors to trade for both of these blocs is a kind of economic insurance policy. If there’s a crisis in one part of the world, then having these strong ties helps keep your own economy stable.” ([06:53])

• Ursula von der Leyen (via summary):

  • The deal sends “a wider message than just an economic deal”—democracies must "rearm and break dependencies on China and Russia." ([08:19])

• Narrator/Commentator:

  • “Today, we are telling an important story to a world that is deeply changing. A world where great powers are using tariffs as leverage and supply chains as vulnerabilities to be exploited.” ([07:55])
  • “Open, rules-based trade delivers positive sum outcomes. Trust matters more than transactions.” ([08:13])

Timestamps for Key Points

• [03:13] Negotiation barriers & EU agricultural protections
• [04:52] Economic benefits to both sides
• [06:53] Strategic context: global instability & “insurance policy”
• [07:55] Significance beyond economics
• [08:19] Closing dependencies on China and Russia
• [08:48] Practical effects for consumers and industry

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2. Italian Referendum: Meloni’s First Major Defeat

Segment starts: [11:36]

Key Discussion Points

• Context:

  • Italian PM Giorgia Meloni lost a referendum on judicial reform; the “No” side won by 54%, with high (60%) turnout ([11:46], [12:40]).
  • Meloni campaigned on strengthening the executive and splitting judges and prosecutors into separate career tracks.
  • Opposition and many voters saw it as a power grab, not concrete reform.

• Political Consequences:

  • “This was her first real defeat in office... It’s also galvanized what has been this very split left. They managed to come together” — Ed Stocker ([12:40])
  • Reflects domestically far more than internationally but dents Meloni’s aura of invincibility ([17:16]).

Quote

• Ed Stocker:
  “She put a lot of herself, if you like, personally on the line for this referendum... It sort of became a referendum on Giorgia Meloni – on her popularity.” ([11:46])

Timestamps

• [11:46] Background/context
• [13:44] Why Meloni risked personal capital
• [16:47] International implications

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3. Denmark’s “Boringly Good” Pre-election (“Pig Election”)

Segment starts: [36:21]

Key Discussion Points

• Politically Stable Yet Unpredictable:

  • PM Mette Frederiksen called a snap election, partly in the slipstream of pushing back against Trump’s Greenland ambitions ([38:34]).
  • Danish politics run on heavy coalition-building, making outcome predictions highly complex ([38:34], [39:31]).
  • Main election issues: pollution from agriculture/pigs, cost of living, defense spending (including cancellation of a public holiday), and immigration ([41:14], [43:10]).

• Memorable Moment:
  Michael Booth: “There are 30 million pigs in Denmark... so the pigs being blamed, the pig industry has been blamed for poisoning the watercourse...” ([41:14])

  • Defense spending has increased due to Ukraine war but is oddly not central in the campaign ([43:10]).

• Michael Booth:
  “It’s been like a fantastic, very grown-up festival of politics for the last four weeks. They take things really, really seriously here in Denmark... but you know, we want boring in this world as it is at the moment.” ([36:53])

Timestamps

• [36:53] Danish political climate/coalition system
• [41:14] Key issues: cost of living, pigs, defense
• [43:10] Defense and economic backdrop

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4. Norway’s All-Electric Vehicle Revolution

Segment starts: [30:16]

Key Discussion Points

• Near-Complete EV Adoption:

  • By 2025, nearly all (95.9%) new cars sold are electric ([30:16], [34:08]).
  • Result of long-term tax policy: high taxes on combustion vehicles, major EV incentives ([34:24]).
  • Regional disparity is fading as charging infrastructure spreads ([32:21]).

• Barriers:

  • Commercial vehicles (vans, lorries) are lagging; electric infrastructure and technology still catching up ([31:42]).

• Policy Significance & Broader Impact:

  • “If you can do it in Norway, we’re far north, cold, long distances, mountains — if we can do it, why shouldn’t it be possible in other places?” — Christina Bu ([34:38])
  • Tax breaks on EVs begin to fade; most believe it won’t reverse progress ([34:08]).

Timestamps

• [30:16] Norway’s EV market transformation
• [32:21] Addressing regional disparity
• [34:08] Impact of taxes/incentives

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5. Mediterranean News Roundup with Emmanuel Papavasiliou

Segment starts: [19:30]

Key Points

• Greece:
  • Independence Day parade: heightened relevance due to Middle East tensions and Iranian covert operations ([19:56], [22:26]).
  • Ongoing trial from deadly 2023 train crash weighs on ruling party’s re-election chances ([23:06]).
  • Tourism: Early opening of Samos island to Turkish tourists via fast-track visas ([24:49]).
  • Northern Greece’s peach blossom festival highlighted as the “next Hanami” ([25:58]).

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6. New Zealand and the Gulf Crisis

Segment starts: [46:08]

Key Discussion Points

• Complex Diplomacy:

  • New Zealand cautious about military involvement in the Strait of Hormuz despite NATO suggestions ([47:00]).
  • Economic fallout: government offers direct cash payments to households due to spiking fuel prices ([49:47]).

• Domestic Challenges:

  • Rising prices threaten the government’s economic optimism, causing unexpected budget strains ([49:47]).

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7. Macro Trends in Urban Living & Real Estate (Knight Frank Interview at MIPIM)

Segment starts: [51:47]

Key Insights from Anthony Duggan (Knight Frank)

• Major Trends (“The 3 (now 5) Ds”):
  • Demographics, Digitalization, Decarbonization, Defense, and “De-globalization” are shaping cities ([51:47]).
• Germany as Investment Focus:
  • Despite challenges, Germany’s size, universities, and innovation mean it’s back as a top real estate investment destination ([54:14]).
• Decarbonization:
  • European real estate is being transformed by regulation and ESG investor demand – even as US “mood music” shifts away from ESG, the business and investor base in Europe is pushing ahead ([55:52]).
• Demographics and Urbanization:
  • Office space is strong in cities with vibrant ecosystems (Madrid, Lisbon, Warsaw), reflecting persistent urban draw ([57:30], [58:27]).

Quote

• “A lot of this comes back to that drive of urbanization which is thousands of years old, but it hasn’t gone away even in the last 10 to 20 years. People are still attracted towards cities.” — Anthony Duggan ([57:30])

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Notable Quotes (with Time Stamps)

• Paul Osborne (EU-Australia Deal):
  • “Opening new doors to trade ... is a kind of economic insurance policy.” ([06:53])
• Ed Stocker (Italy):
  • “It sort of became a referendum on Giorgia Meloni — on her popularity.” ([11:46])
• Michael Booth (Denmark):
  • "There are 30 million pigs in Denmark..." ([41:14])
• Christina Bu (Norway):
  • “If you can do it in Norway ... why shouldn’t it be possible in other places?” ([34:38])
• Anthony Duggan (Real Estate):
  • “People are still attracted towards cities.” ([57:30])

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Conclusion

This episode masterfully connects developments in trade, politics, energy, and urbanism, holding up the EU–Australia deal as a touchstone for the changing rules of international cooperation—built on both pragmatic economics and the urgent need among democracies for new, reliable ties. Listeners are treated to a brisk global survey: the simmering tensions and realignments in Europe, environmental ambitions met with real-world complexity, and the ways cities and countries are both shaped by and shaping today’s vast uncertainties.

Transcript

[UBS Narrator]

Craft matters in small ways like how a coffee is brewed, and in not so small ways like how your money is cared for. Which is why for 160 years, UBS has elevated banking to a craft, tailoring unique strategies that combine human expertise with the latest technologies, all happening across 24 time zones and and 12 key financial hubs. With you at the heart of it all, UBS advice is our craft.

[Emma Nelson]

You're listening to the Globalist, first broadcast on 24 March 2026 on Monocle Radio. The Globalist in association with U. Live from London. This is THE Globalist with me, Emma Nelson. A very warm welcome to today's program. Coming up, we are telling an important

[Narrator/Commentator]

story to a world that is deeply changing. Trust matters more than transactions.

[Emma Nelson]

After eight years, the EU and Australia reach a trade deal. We'll be in Melbourne to explore the significance of the agreement and ask why it took everyone so long. Also ahead in the next 60 minutes, we focus on high stakes gambles taken by two of Europe's prime ministers. First, Georgia Maloney loses a referendum she called to change Italy's legal system. And then Denmark's Metta Frederickson, emboldened by pushing back against Donald Trump's desire for Greenland, bets the farm with a snap general election today.

[Bjorna Grimsrud]

Plus, we are already beyond the point of discussion about the future of the personal vehicles. They will be electric. That's how it is and that's how it's going to be, I think.

[Emma Nelson]

Why Norway, one of Europe's largest oil producers is hooked on the electric car. Plus Tuesday's papers, too. That's all ahead on the Globalist, live from London. First, a look at what else is happening in today's news. It's being reported that senior U.S. officials, including President Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff and Vice President J.D. vance, may meet Iranian officials this week in Pakistan. New Zealand's government's going to provide weekly cash fuel payments to help some families afford petrol following the Iran conflict, pushing prices up. And the luxury house Prej and Estee Lauder have confirmed they are considering a merger. Stay tuned to Monocle Radio throughout the day for more on these stories. But first, it has taken eight years, but the EU and Australia have finally reached a trade deal. The president of the EU Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, is currently in Australia to push the agreement over the line. Following events is Paul Osborne, reporter based in Melbourne in Australia and a regular voice here on Monocle Radio. Welcome back, Paul.

[Paul Osborne]

Hello.

[Emma Nelson]

So just tell us, why did it take eight years for this deal to Come about.

[Paul Osborne]

Yeah, it seems quite a long time, doesn't it? The talk started back in 2018 between the EU and Australia. People who said they were natural partners who had a shared commitment to the rule of law. But it took an awfully long time. The talks actually collapsed back in 2023 when Australia walked out because the EU was refusing to budge on agricultural quotas and also on geographical indicators. That's something the EU is awfully keen on, demanding protection for names like FETA and Prosecco. Now, progress only resumed when global economic pressures, in particular US tariffs, global supply chain problems, fears over the impact of things like the war in Ukraine started to outweigh the political dangers of being seen to compromise. Australia did manage to get a carve out on Prosecco, but only inside Australia to phase that name out for exports of sparkling wine within 10 years. But that's to one side. The Australian Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, was very happy to announce the deal at a news conference earlier in Canberra.

[Dr. Jeffrey Miller]

Our relationship with Europe is grounded in our shared belief in democratic values, in

[Emma Nelson]

human rights and in inclusive societies.

[Dr. Jeffrey Miller]

However, the regions that we call home,

[Michael Booth]

the Indo Pacific and Europe, are less

[Emma Nelson]

predictable, but they're more interconnected than ever before.

[Dr. Jeffrey Miller]

The best way of navigating this reality

[Paul Osborne]

is for us to do more together, and they should be doing. Under this deal, it should expand a trade relationship that is already worth around 66 billion euros every year. That's about 110 billion Australian dollars.

[Emma Nelson]

Paul, how does each side of this, the European Union and Australia, actually benefit from this?

[Paul Osborne]

In cash terms, Australia thinks this deal's worth about $10 billion a year. For Australian businesses, that's about 6 billion euros for the EU. They believe it could increase exports to Australia by about a third in the next decade. And what it means for the EU is that 99% of the tariffs that were on EU exports to Australia will be scrapped. That should save European businesses more than a billion euros every year. Critically, it includes axing the tariffs on wine, on chocolate, on fruit and vegetables, opening up those export markets into Australia, though for some reason the tariffs on cheese will not go immediately. There's apparently an up to three year delay on that. The other critical thing is that the EU gains secure access to Australian critical minerals. That's something that is a big issue around the world. Sourcing those minerals from somewhere other than China. So you are less reliant on China for what is an increasingly vital resource for Australia. Again, the EU in turn scraps the tariffs on things like chemicals, minerals, metals, wood. There's Also a big increase, 500% increase in the tariff free quota for red meat. It means that beef and lamb, up to 30,000 tonnes a year, can be imported into the EU from Australia. That is less than farmers wanted. They wanted 50,000, and that was one of the sticking points in those talks over those eight years. But again, the big thing for Australia businesses is preferential, largely tariff free, access to a market of 450 million people.

[Emma Nelson]

Paul, this is all superb news if you're a fan of Australian meat, or if in Australia you quite fancy a bit of chocolate. But let's talk about the current global climate. It is phenomenally unstable and one wonders how much this has actually pushed the European Union and Australia closer together.

[Paul Osborne]

It certainly did. As I say, these talks collapsed back in 2023 because they couldn't reach compromises on a number of key issues. And in that news conference in Canberra a few hours ago, both Anthony Albanese and Ursula von der Leiner acknowledged that they, at that sort of political leadership level, had to bang heads together to get a deal because the world had become much more uncertain whether it's Ukraine, whether it's Donald Trump getting into trade wars, imposing tariffs all over the place. Look, opening new doors to trade for both of these blocks is a kind of economic insurance policy. If there's a crisis in one part of the world, then having these strong ties elsewhere helps to keep your own economy stable. And in an era of trade wars, deals like this can create a kind of safe zone, a place where two regions agree to trade with each other without worrying about the sudden imposition of a new tax or a new barrier. But when they were speaking together in front of reporters in Canberra earlier today, Ursula von der Leyen, very keen to say that it was sending a wider message than just an economic deal.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Today we are telling an important story to a world that is deeply changing. A world where great powers are using tariffs as a leverage and supply chains as vulnerabilities to be exploited.

[Emma Nelson]

In our story, open rules based trade

[Narrator/Commentator]

delivers positive sum outcomes, trust matters more than transactions.

[Paul Osborne]

Later, she made a speech to the Australian Parliament in Canberra in which she talked about the world becoming brutal, harsh and ugly, unforgiving. The certainties that we thought we knew, she said, are in question. And she said that democracies like the EU and Australia needed to band together to rearm and to break the economic and energy dependencies on China and Russia.

[Emma Nelson]

Paul, if you're in Australia or if you're in any one of the EU27 member states, what differences will you Actually

[Paul Osborne]

notice now in Australia you'll see that the price of European goods falling, particularly food and also notably cars. That's potentially a big market for European car manufacturers. The car market here is dominated by Japan, by Korea, by China as well, increasingly particularly in the electric vehicle market. For EU consumers expect to see more Australian made products on the shelves as well. But the biggest changes really are going to be behind the scenes. That new secure supply of critical minerals for the EU is a really big deal for European business and labour mobility on both sides. This deal opens up the ability for skilled workers to move more easily to work between Australia and the European Union. So that again is going to be a longer term benefit that both Australia and the EU are hoping that the citizens of both places will benefit from in the years ahead.

[Emma Nelson]

Finally, Paul, you mentioned a moment ago just the China coming into this. Australia is doing all it can to reduce its reliance on Beijing, isn't it? How much does this trade deal help?

[Paul Osborne]

Yeah, there is an Australian policy of trade diversification, a desire to not be as reliant on China as Australia has been in the past. Hence this deal, hence a deal that was inked a couple of years ago with the uk. There are ongoing negotiations with India. An interim deal has already been agreed there. But at the same time, China still accounts for about a third of Australia's total exports by value. That is lower than it used to be. About five years ago it was more like 40, 42%. And Australia's trade with China dwarfs any relationship with the EU. It's worth more than $300 billion every year. And so while on the one hand Australia is very keen to diversify its trade to strike deals like the one that's been signed with the EU today. They've also very much welcomed a thaw in relations with China in the last couple of years because they've recognized that while they are wary of China, while they need to have other partners too, China is simply too much trade for Australia to throw away.

[Emma Nelson]

Paul Osborne, reporter based in Melbourne. Thank you so much for joining us on the Globalist. You're listening to Monocle Radio. Now, Italy's Prime Minister has said she will stay in office despite losing a high stakes referendum on changing the structure of the country's judiciary. This weekend, Italians voted in their numbers, defeating Signora meloni's proposals by 54%. Her plans would have led to significant reform to the country's constitution, with the country's judges most at risk of change. Well, I'm joined now by by Ed Stocker Monocle's Europe editor at large in Milan. A very good morning to you, Ed. How's Milan looking today?

[Ed Stocker]

Very good morning from a bright and sunny Milan.

[Emma Nelson]

Glad to hear it's good where you are. How much of a risk was Signora Meloni taking by calling this referendum?

[Ed Stocker]

Well, I mean, the one thing is that she sort of campaigned on this. When she won the election back in September 2022, she came to power, amongst other things, on saying that she wanted to create. Create a stronger executive, and she really campaigned strongly on this. She put a lot of her, if you like, personally on the line for this referendum. She was appearing on tv, she was appearing on podcasts. It was very clear what her position was. And I think the big takeaway from this, and it's a complicated referendum about basically splitting the powers of the judiciary. At the moment, there's one career, whether you want to be a public prosecutor or a judge, and the government was proposing splitting those to changing the body that oversees it. I think a lot of lay voters didn't understand it, but at the end of the day, it sort of became a referendum on Giorgia Meloni, on her popularity, on the fact that she was looking to change the constitution. I think people were fearful that if she were to win this, she would make other changes to the constitution. It would sort of open the door for that. So, you know, it's a big deal because she came to power, like I mentioned, in September 2022, and she's had it easy in a way, since then. She hasn't put a foot wrong. Even though, of course, Italy's stagnating economically. There are many problems, huge ones in Italy. But she's benefited from this fractured left. This is her first real defeat in office. And it's all. It's also galvanized what has been this very split left. They managed to come together. They were all in agreement that this referendum needed to be defeated. So they're feeling this new energy on the back of this very clear victory for the Novo, and an extremely high turnout of almost 60%, which was a surprise to many.

[Emma Nelson]

Emma, so explain to us a little bit about, given what you've just said, the fact that she has been damaged and her reputation has been tarnished. This was a very complicated plan when it comes to reforming the judiciary. Just run us through if it is possible. But why would she place such a huge amount of personal capital in making this referendum go through?

[Ed Stocker]

Well, the government argument is basically that the justice system needs reform, that judges and magistrates need to be More accountable. And there is an element of truth. Look, the system is slow, it's bureaucratic. It clearly needs some sort of reform. That is in little doubt. I think the big question mark over this was whether any of the proposals, and a lot of it was still up in the air. It wasn't exactly clear what would happen with these changes, would lead to a more streamlined, you know, judicial system. There was. There was due to be a change to the way, you know, magistrates had chosen by drawing lots, but it wasn't really clear how that would happen. The opposition was basically saying this is a way for. For the government to control the justice system more. And, you know, when you hear some of the comments that the government's made, this coalition of the right has made about the justice system, you could be forgiven for believing that, you know, they've worriedly talked about these sort of red judges. One minister even sort of said the justice system was almost mafia. Like, it's not new that the right has wanted to reform the justice. Silvio Berlusconi was a big campaigner for this. He was. He was not happy with those pesky court cases against him. And so it dates back to this. So this was sort of an attempt by Meloni to sort of honor Berlusconi, if you like. But for the opposition, it was seen as a grab on power, especially as he'd made all these comments. She talked about an intolerable intrusion over a huge infrastructure project to build a bridge in the Messina Strait that would have cost 13.5 billion euros, currently halted by the justice system. She wasn't happy at all with that. So I think, you know, the fact that she has had, like I mentioned before, Emma, this first serious defeat since she's been in office, we'll have to see a where she goes from here. You know, some have asked for her to resign. There was never any likelihood that that was going to happen. But there are elections next year in 2027. And so, you know, this left that's been very split, you know, often in disagreement, you know, with itself in fighting, they managed to come together. Can they stay together and sort of build on the momentum of this referendum and take it into the general election next year, if they can, perhaps, and it is a big if, they might be able to challenge the power of Meloni?

[Emma Nelson]

And briefly, are there any international repercussions to this? Because you may have a domestic referendum at home which defeats the prime minister. But the way that Italy has carved out its. Its international path, thanks mainly to Giorgia Meloni's ability to talk to everybody internationally, the fact that there is a shadow cast over her, her tenure now, the fact that she does have to go into an election next year, what, what do you think this might say to other countries is?

[Ed Stocker]

Well, I think it, look, it breaks the aura of invincibility that she's had and let's face it, there have been some, perhaps two positive column mentions dedicated to her internationally about the fact that she's managed to keep her government together, which is a feat, but she hasn't addressed a lot of problems. There been almost 70 governments in Italy since the Second World War, a huge number. So the fact that she's lasted this long is impressive. Now there are wobbles. I think really it reflects more domestically than internationally. Even if her image may be changed by all of this, the fact that she's been very close on the international stage to Donald Trump has been extremely popular, unpopular rather with voters back in Italy. The fact that she has been slow to comment about the attacks on Iran has also not washed well and there have been some scandals within her government. So if you combine all of these, it really is reflecting on her domestically. But perhaps her international choices, you could say have caused, you know, led to this result or at least contribute to it, contributed to it in the referendum.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Emma.

[Emma Nelson]

Ed Stocker Monocles, the Europe editor at large in Milan. Thank you so much for joining us on the programme. Still to come, a lot of this

[Anthony Duggan]

comes back to that drive of urbanization which is thousands of years old but, you know, hasn't gone away even in the last 10 to 20 years. People are still attracted to towards cities.

[Emma Nelson]

Examine the future of urban living with the CEO of the real estate giant Knight Frank. Stay tuned.

[UBS Narrator]

Craft is a matter of perspective, a unique outlook, an obsessive attention to detail. With UBS's Chief Investment Office House View, we're focused on identifying the latest investment opportunities and market risks to help you achieve your financial goals. So you get the big picture broken down into thought provoking insights delivered daily and curated by over 200 globally connected, locally active analysts. UBS banking is our craft.

[Emma Nelson]

7:19 here in London. Let's have a look at the papers. Joining me in the studio is the Greek journalist and regular monocle voice, Emmanuel Papavasilio. To go through the Mediterranean papers. What a terribly hard job that must be.

[Emmanuel Papavasiliou]

Hi.

[Emma Nelson]

Yes, how are you Manos?

[Emmanuel Papavasiliou]

Good, I'm good, how are you?

[Emma Nelson]

How's life? What have you been up to?

[Emmanuel Papavasiliou]

Yeah, yeah, it's all good, it's all good. Yeah. Here in London lately. Working around.

[Emma Nelson]

Excellent.

[Narrator/Commentator]

He's busy. Right.

[Emma Nelson]

You've been busy looking at the papers. Where are we going first? We're going to Ikatamarini, right?

[Emmanuel Papavasiliou]

Yeah. Actually let's, let's go, let's talk about this Wednesday basically in Greece it marks the Greek Independence Day. And like all every year there's like a massive large scale military parade going through Athens and this is a huge thing. We have all the branches of the military, the navy, the air force is all marching through Athens with tanks, with flypast a lot. However, this year the celebrations are going to carry a bit of more added weight given the developments in the Middle east and rising tensions and basically growing concern that Greece might potentially like all countries get carried on into the conflict even further. It follows reports recently that Greek operated Patriot missile systems in that were stationed in Saudi intercepted Iranian missiles targeting Saudi oil infrastructure. And it also comes as Athens is currently investigating undercover operations by Iran within it. Basically the Greek authorities have been uncovering a string of activities that is linked they believe to Iran's powerful Revolutionary Guard. There's actually, it's all connected to a bank, it's called Sadarat. It's a major Iranian lender with headquarters in Tehran and a global network of 3,000 branches. Now one of these branches in Greece based in Panapistimius street, interestingly a property being rented from the bank of Greece has been which has been sanctioned by the UN and the European Union. They found out that basically it was lending a lot of money and funneling funding to the Iranian government proxies in the region. And there's a lot of like shipments being investigated at the port of Piraeus there that have been like linked to operatives going to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

[Emma Nelson]

And this is interesting given the fact that when we read the headlines we assume it is just the big players involved in this, just you know, the Brits and et cetera, et cetera. But to have things like stitch to have a problem happening on a property in Athens, part of the bank of Greece and actually being used, it is claimed in the papers to funnel money from Iran and also to get money to Hezbollah, it just sort of highlights the sort of geographical importance of Greece as well as not just its wider political and geopolitical relevance.

[Emmanuel Papavasiliou]

It is indeed that is the fear in Greece because Greece like geographically is the crosswords between Europe, Africa, Middle east, the West. And that's why, you know, this year's military parade will try to aim and show the, that we have, we also are strong, we are a strong force here to be reckoned with and that, you know, we are secure in our own powers as well.

[Emma Nelson]

Okay, let's move on to a local story. The trial associated with a train crash that killed 57 people three years ago.

[Emmanuel Papavasiliou]

So yeah, three years. It's three years. It comes three years after the Greece's deadliest rail disaster. Basically, just for people who don't know, it is in February 2023. BAS Thessaloniki bound Intercity train was traveling and collided with a freight carrier heading south. And it resulted in 57 dead people, most of them have students. And it has become a huge deal with, you know, weird investigations from the government, a very defensive stance from the government into how they investigated it, etc, and therefore it has caused a lot of, you know, support from the current government to fall, to drop. Now this trial started yesterday. It quickly descended into chaos just to show you how, how big the spirit was and they, they adjourned the proceedings for next month. However, with the coming elections of 2027, the ruling party, New Democracy has lost so much support because of this scandal that although it is projected to, you know, have the most votes, they're not looking into having an actual, the ability to form an actual government now. So whatever happens with this trial will surely become a key to what happens into the elections next year.

[Emma Nelson]

Okay, let's move on to tourism. It's something that we all have to touch on when you come into the studio. We've got a couple of weeks before everything starts up in earnest in Greece. But the island of Samos, which is not far from Turkey, things are already happening.

[Emmanuel Papavasiliou]

Yeah, listen. Greek summer has officially started. The ferries have started their services in Samos. This is a special case, however, and it comes because all these islands that are close to the Turkish border are opening up their season specifically for Turk. There is a special fast track visa scheme that the Greek state has created for Turkish nationals to come and holiday in the islands. One of them is Samos and it's the first one. And the people there, the locals really heavily, the economy there really heavily depends on the Turkish tourists and visitors to come. So this is good news for them.

[Emma Nelson]

Excellent, wonderful. And also we're all talking about cherry blossom season in Japan, which has gone so much attention. And actually in a couple of weeks, if you walk down some of the streets in Athens, you will smell the gorgeous, gorgeous orange blossom, which is something that I always remember. It's an overwhelmingly lovely smell. Peach blossom season is something that's a big thing now.

[Emmanuel Papavasiliou]

I bet you didn't know, did you like basically everyone knows about the spring blossom festivals in Japan that bring loads of tourists in Hanami, but not many people know about the peach blossoms in Masia, which is in northern Greece. It's just near Thessaloniki. Basically every season from basically now, from February until the whole of March, thousands of acres of peach trees burst into bloom, blanketing the whole landscape in shades of pink and fuchsia. Now this was a well kept Secret. However, since 2017, the Veria Tourism Club, which is there, has decided that they want to attract more visitors and they have created a festival looking eyeing like how they do it in Japan. And basically it's all, it's all pink. It's all, it's all like a massive pink thing and there's going to be like photography competitions there, wine tastings with a lot of wine. Yeah. So it's a lovely thing and they really go, you know, for all the channels to advertise it now.

[Emma Nelson]

It's an incredible. I think we need to sort of describe a little bit more just how hot pink this pink is, isn't it? I mean there's a publicity associated. I'm looking at a picture of a woman who's trying to look like Brigitte Bardot and she's carrying a pink glass with a pink dress on, but she is surrounded by this astonishing sort of very, very, very vivid hue. You said it's like.

[Emmanuel Papavasiliou]

Yeah, as I said, it's completely bl. The landscape with, with pink sage and Fuxia and all that. And what is more is that if you see in the background you have Imathea, the mountain with its snowy peaks resembling Fuji. So you don't really have to go far. Especially now that in Japan, like the, the visitors are being, you know, more, more they get less visitors or like they want to get less visitors because they're, they're, they're bombing the place. So if you're in huge Europe and you want to see something similar, this is the place to go.

[Emma Nelson]

Lovely, thank you so much. Noted Emmanuel Papavasili Manos, thank you so much for joining us in the studio. You're listening to the Globalist. Now a quick look at some of the other stories we're following today. It's being reported that senior U.S. officials, including President Trump's special envoy Steve Witkoff and Vice President J.D. vance, may meet Iranian officials this week in Pakistan. There's been no comment so far from Tehran. Meanwhile, the New Zealand government is to offer weekly cash fuel payments to help some families pay for petrol. It follows fuel price increases caused by the Iran conflict. Taiwan says it won't attend a high level meeting of the World Trade Organization for the first time since it joined in 2002. The decision is in protest at the host country, Cameroon, describing Taiwan as a province of China. In official paperwork work, it's emerged one of the survivors of a collision between an Air Canada flight and a fire truck at New York's LaGuardia Airport was a flight attendant found on the tarmac still strapped to her seat. She'd fallen through the floor of the damaged plane. The collision killed two pilots and injured many others. And the luxury houses Prege and Estee Lauder have confirmed they're considering a merger. The Spanish firm said the two companies are in discussions regarding a potential business combination. Estee Lauder's stock price prices dropped more than three quarters in the last four years. This is the Globalist. Stay tuned. Now nine out of the 10 new cars to hit the road in Norway last year were electric. Of the 170,000 sold, that means that only eight and a half thousand were powered by the internal combustion engine. Christina Bu is from the Norwegian EV association and Bjorna Grimsrud is from Norway's Institute of Transport Economics. They spoke to Monocle Zander Brett, who asked whether Norway can be held up as a guiding light for other countries.

[Zander Brett]

About a decade ago, the Norwegian parliament agreed on a goal. It was that by 2025 all new cars in the country should be zero emission. It might have seemed ambitious, unrealistic Even, but as 2025 wrapped up up recently, figures showed EVs, that's electric vehicles representing a whopping 95.9% of the Norwegian car market, not far at all from that 100% target. Norway's success story is something Christina Bu, Secretary General of the Norwegian EV association, sounds rightly delighted with.

[Narrator/Commentator]

A lot of importers of cars now don't sell petrol diesel cars anymore, or not even plug in hybrids. They don't import bought them. But there are still a few ICE cars that will be sold unless you ban them completely. And I don't think that's a good idea. But we have a tax system that has made them extremely expensive. So you have to be quite rich and a little bit foolish to choose an ICE car unless it's some very special needs that makes you have to do this.

[Zander Brett]

Sports cars, emergency vehicles, wheelchair accessible vehicles. They're among these splattering of ice or ice, that's in this case internal combustion engine cars sold in Norway last year. Of course, it isn't just cars that have been turning electric In Norway, there are vans to consider, lorries, buses, the list goes on. And for many of those vehicles, electric adoption has been comparatively slow. Back to Christina.

[Michael Booth]

Boom.

[Narrator/Commentator]

When it comes to vans and especially lorries or trucks, we are a lot further behind. But Norway has very ambitious goals in these segments as well to go to zero emission. So that is more about technology development and also infrastructure for lorries or for trucks. We ended at 17% market share last year, so we have a long way to go. For vans it's quite a lot better. But we are not at 100 there either.

[Zander Brett]

So work to do with vehicles aren't in car cars. But Christine Labou says there's little suggestion of regional disparity even in a country as large and sparsely populated as Norway.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Well, for many years it was the city areas where the uptake was the highest. So Oslo, for example, was always above the national average. That has changed. And the reason I think is first of all the EVs now with the technology, long range and the infrastructure is also, when it comes to fast charging infrastructure, it's working, working really well all over the country now makes it easy to choose an ev. But also I think the challenge for cities is of course that in bigger cities people tend to live in apartment buildings and access to everyday charging might be more of a challenge.

[Zander Brett]

Bjorna Grimsf is the director of Norway's Institute of Transport Economics. He says his country's setup is based on home charging and it's a model he'd encourage other jurisdictions to follow.

[Bjorna Grimsrud]

We had traditionally hydropower clean electricity which was used for heating in homes. So it was quite easy for homeowners to establish charging points in their own homes. Take myself as an example of charge at home in the apartment building where I live. Occasionally when I'm driving for a long distance, I will then charge along the roads. You see these visible charging stations, but they are actually supplementing, complementary to the system, which is based on home charging and home based charge for professionals.

[Zander Brett]

Take a look at last year's statistics in detail and you'll notice a sharp increase in EV sales towards the end of the year. Almost 98% of new cars registered in December, in fact were electric. And that increase was probably brought on by a rush to avoid a vat rise to EVs costing more than 300,000 krona. It came into effect on the 1st of January this this year. The rise was announced in October in Norway's budget. But Grunsburg doesn't think the tax hike will prove much of a problem in

[Bjorna Grimsrud]

the long term, I think they will have a minor impact. I think it's due time. You could have done it actually a couple years earlier. We are already beyond the point of discussion about the future of the personal vehicles. They will be electric. That's how it is and that's how it's going to be, I think.

[Zander Brett]

But how did Norway get to that position where it was clear that electricity was the future? Well, it seems increased taxes on ICE vehicles at the same time as incentives for EVs and more broadly consistent efforts from consecutive governments.

[Narrator/Commentator]

Christina Bu Again, we have had a quite ambitious EV policy for many years in Norway. It started in the early 1990s where we didn't really have that many EVs to buy. Even I don't think EVs have been as politicians as it has been in some other countries. That said, it's definitely been debated and there's been a lot of work for us as a lobby organization to prevent increasing the taxes too fast or to get enough focus on keeping the incentives long enough. But we also agree obviously that a car should pay vat. For us, it's more about how you get to to a full vat, that it doesn't happen too quickly and that we make sure that EVs always compete. I think what is cool about Norway being at the forefront of EV uptake is that it maybe makes it a bit harder for other countries to say, oh, it's very difficult here because if you can do it in Norway, we're far north, it's cold, it's long distances, we have mountains and if we can do it, why shouldn't it be possible? And other places being at the forefront of a change to a new technology which is so important for people's everyday life, also creates opportunities for new businesses within charging infrastructure, within battery manufacturing and so on and so forth.

[Zander Brett]

Norway's EV achievements should surely stand as inspiration to leaders and consumers in other countries on their own journeys to decreasing carbon emissions, put their pedal to the metal. And with the right carrot and stick approach approach of taxes and incentives at the right place at the right time, perhaps they too could cruise towards an almost fully electric future.

[Emma Nelson]

That's Xander Brett reporting for Monocor in Oslo. It's 8:36am in Copenhagen, which is where we head next. Denmark votes in a general election today for the Prime Minister Meta Fredriksen. A surge in her popularity as she took on Trump prompted her to call a snap election. But will it pay off? Well, I'm joined now by Michael Booth, Monocles correspondent in Copenhagen. A Regular voice here on the radio. Very good morning to you, Michael. How's Copenhagen looking today?

[Michael Booth]

Morning, Emma. Nice to talk to you. Welcome to the strange parallel universe of a Danish general election where it's as if Ukraine or Greenland, Trump or Iran weren't really happening. Because the major topic of discussion here today the past four weeks has been pigs mostly. But I'm going to start with the positive. It's been like a fantastic, very grown up festival of politics for the last four weeks. They take things really, really seriously here in Denmark. So there have been three two hour prime time debates with all 12 party leaders. It's totally dominated the media here and almost nothing's happened. It's been almost entirely without incident, really quite boring. But you know, we want boring in this world as it is at the moment. So it's been fantastic to watch the Danes going about their very serious democratic business. You know, there's going to be a turnover probably of over 80% of voters here, but the question is, who are they going to vote for and who's going to win and who's going to be the next prime minister?

[Emma Nelson]

Well, let's have a look before we get onto the pigs. We must touch on this in a moment and the, the satisfying boringness of a Danish pre election run up. But let's just look at the context of this. Cause I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that Meta Fredrickson effectively just won the day in January when she pushed back against Donald Trump who wanted to have Greenland. And she had been slipping in the polls, hadn't she? But this moment had shone the spotlight on her in a very benevolent way. And it was for this reason, wasn't it, that she thought, right, we're going to go to the country.

[Michael Booth]

Well, I mean, no one quite knows why she's gone to the country at this point. There's the sneaking suspicion is that she knows there's further chaos down the line. But in truth, I'm going to push back slightly on that because it was more Lars Luca Rasmussen, her foreign minister, who got most of the credit for holding the Americans at bay earlier in the year. And actually metaphorically, Social Democrat party are down in the polls. They're still going to be the biggest party, but they're going to be down several percent points on their last election, it seems, according to the polls over the election. But here's where the strange parallel universe comes into it, because she'll probably still be prime minister at the end of all of this due to the very complicated coalition block politics that happen here in Denmark. There's traditionally a Red bloc and a Blue bloc. But for the last three and a half years there's been this weird middle block where Meadow Frederickson's Social Democrats have been in an alliance with the Middle party led by Lars Luther Rasmussen, who used to be leader and prime minister for the Ventral Party, who are also in this three party across the middle coalition. And the election process up until now really has been about those leaders differentiating each other's from each other other and trying to say they're not going to be in government together. Which means neither the Red bloc or the Blue bloc are going to have the 90 mandates necessary to have a majority in Parliament. Which leaves Lars Lucker Rasmussen, this kind of old stager, very canny politician as he's placing himself as the kingmaker. Because in truth, when you vote in a Danish general election, the politicians make many, many promises. They know they can't fulfill those promises because they'll always have to go in a coalition with many others. The electorate know they are not going to be able to fulfill those promises because there's always going to be the excuse of I wanted to do this but my coalition partners wouldn't allow it. So you have this strange kind of shadow play in the Danish election where everyone's trying to second guess who's actually going to be in the final coalition and whether or not they're going to cut the tails off the pigs or not.

[Emma Nelson]

Okay, so we're going to have to ask the question about the pigs. What does that mean? Does that issue involve. But more broadly, let's look at the way that Denmark, well, the state of Denmark as we go into this election today, what are voters happy or unhappy about? Despite the fact that the coalition, any coalition may not be able to solve the problems. But you know, pigs, yes, we need to know. But the cost of living and the, the abolition of a public holiday to pay for defense spending, they. They're big things going into the ballot are.

[Michael Booth]

Yeah, absolutely, you're right. At the start of the election there was this issue about one of the many days holiday that the Danes have, which the current government abolished and people were not very happy about that's died away over the last couple of weeks. And weirdly, well, not weirdly it's become the biggest issue probably has been drinking water in Denmark and the terrible long term pollution of drinking water water by industrial agriculture in this country. Denmark has always been a very strong agricultural nation and this has rumbled on for years that the pesticides and nitrates and fertilizers used in this country have kind of toxified the water course. And finally that seems to burst into the national consciousness and the political consciousness and people. Because the last government promised to impose a ban ban on these pesticides in certain areas of the country. They didn't manage to do it because in the government was this venture party, the Conservatives equivalent in the uk who were very much pro agriculture. That's their traditional background. So they've always fought against it. And that's tied into the pig production in Denmark. Emma, do you know there are 30 million pigs in Denmark at any given time? Many, many times the population of Denmark. So the pigs being blamed, the pig industry has been blamed for poisoning the watercourse in Denmark. And suddenly this issue has become probably the most talked about here.

[Emma Nelson]

Explain also though, the idea of how Meta Frederiksen and her government have reshaped Denmark from the inside when it comes to its military identity. Because we mentioned a moment ago the cancellation of a public holiday to allow for more money to be spent on defence. But this has been a big shift for Denmark, hasn't it?

[Michael Booth]

Yeah, Denmark traditionally hasn't really seen itself as a military nation. You know, less than 6 million people don't have a great record in terms of military activity for the last couple of hundred years and have always, you know, assumed that they'll be part of an alliance with NATO and Europe and so on. But since the Ukrainian war, Meto Ferguson has taken a really strong leading role internationally in supporting Ukraine and Zelensky, he's been to visit Copenhagen many times, been to Kyiv many times. And Denmark has almost tripled its defense spending from 1 point something percent to 3 point something per cent. So the militarization has been a strong issue in the lead up to this election. Again, the Danes have become very parochial on this election. So it hasn't really been an issue. The Venstra. The Conservatives have tried to make it an issue and the leader, Charles Vaughn Paulson has talked a lot about defence spending, but it hasn't really caught with the Danish public because I think they really realize they can't defend themselves anyway, so they're going to have to rely on NATO and other alliances. But for sure, luckily this defense spending has coincided in something of an economic boom for Denmark. Every few months, it seems the finance minister has been finding another few billion kroma down the back of the sofa. That was a lot to do with Novo Nordisk's great doom with the another kind of drugs like that. But the Danish economy just seems to continue to be booming, which means that they're able to pay for these things. The other issue that has come some parties have tried to push is migration and immigration and integration and asylum seekers, which again, the story there has been that Metta Fredriksen has very cleverly kind of stolen the clothes of the far right parties in terms of her rhetoric and policy. There's, there's almost not much territory left for those parties to grab. So they predictably moved even further right. So in this election, the far right have been talking about, you know, expelling immigrant criminals much more quickly and effectively. That's been their main kind of push on that policy.

[Emma Nelson]

Michael Booth, Monocles correspondent in Copenhagen, thank you so much for that update. You're listening to the global.

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[Emma Nelson]

2045 in Wellington, New Zealand, and it's 8:45am here in, sorry, 7:45am here In London. Now, as a global fallout from the Iran conflict continues to worsen, New Zealand says it's made no commitment to military action in the Middle East. This is despite being named by the NATO Secretary General, Mark Rutte, as part of a group of countries looking to secure the Strait of Hormuz. Rutte says more than 20 nations are working together to keep the vital shipping route open. But Wellington insists it hasn't signed up to any specific role, even as rising oil prices are beginning to bite. Well, to explore what New Zealand's position really is, Geoffrey Miller, Dr. Jeffrey Miller is a geopolitical analyst for the Democracy Project in New Zealand, and he joins me now. Good evening, Jeff.

[Dr. Jeffrey Miller]

Jeffrey, good evening to you. Emma, good morning.

[Emma Nelson]

So can you explain where does New Zealand actually stand?

[Dr. Jeffrey Miller]

Oh, look, it's a complicated story, Emma. Christopher Luxon, the prime minister here, got himself tied up into some knots at the beginning of the conflict explaining New Zealand's position because New Zealand took a position similar to France and Germany on the conflict. It acknowledged the US Israeli strikes but did not support them, and it condemned the Iranian strikes. And there were some real questions over Christopher Luxon's leadership in the wake of quite a disastrous press conference in which he tried to explain that position and as I said, tied himself up in knots answering some of the journalist Questions. I think things have moved on since then and New Zealand has found its footing and the Prime Minister has found his feet when it comes to this. So New Zealand supported the UN resolution, UN Security Council Resolution 281 and was a co sponsor of that, condemning Iran's retaliatory strikes on the Gulf states. And then most recently it signed up to this joint statement that around 22 countries I think now have signed, mostly European states, but also a number from the Gulf, also in Asia, and that really had that wording there of expressing readiness to contribute to appropriate efforts to ensure safe passage through the Strait of Hormuz. And I think New Zealand is willing to contribute to efforts, but exactly what that constitutes is I guess the big question. And Mark Ritter of course, trying to, I think, lead countries on more the military route. I think New Zealand is a bit reluctant to go down that path just yet.

[Emma Nelson]

Indeed. I mean, you talk about signing up to a statement which talks about expressing readiness, but what does that actually look like?

[Dr. Jeffrey Miller]

Look, I think it's deliberately a vague phrasing, isn't it? And, and I think at the moment everyone realizes that it's a war zone there in the Strait of Hormuzen. Going into the Strait would be a suicide mission. I mean, the United States, the world's most powerful military, hasn't done it. I don't think you would expect New Zealand and a number of these other NATO countries and partner countries to really be able to do much better. But things can change and there may be a ceasefire for all we know, in a week's time or a month's time. You hope that so. And then perhaps there is a role for New Zealand and other countries to play in monitoring and patrols of the Strait of Hormuz. New Zealand ships and frigates have been going up to the Middle east for surveillance and patrol missions for well over 20 years, since the aftermath of 9, 11, really. So New Zealand could play a small but important role in any kind of multilateral mission. But I think that's for the future, down the track, not for indeed.

[Emma Nelson]

And this is actually affecting New Zealanders pockets. Already we mentioned in the news that the New Zealand government is going to offer weekly cash fuel payments to help people pay for petrol. How much is this actually biting?

[Dr. Jeffrey Miller]

That's right. New Zealand is grappling like all countries are at the moment with this fuel crisis. And Christopher Luxon, the Prime Minister, has used that word to describe what we're seeing at the moment of crisis. And that measure came out today that around 150,000 households will be given a small payment of around 50 New Zealand dollars. I think it's around 30 odd US dollars a week to try and help stave off the worst of these impacts. And that will cost a significant chunk of money in New Zealand's context, around US$200 million. And for Nicola Willis, the finance minister who's trying to make the sums work, work in the budget that's coming out in May, that's going to be. It's going to be tough. So it's really an unexpected bump in the road. What we're seeing now, the crisis with Iran for New Zealand and the New Zealand government, which had really been promoting green shoots in the economy, as it seemed as recently as a month ago. Everything seemed to be looking good for New Zealand this year after a couple of lacklustre years of economic performance. But all bets are off now with petrol well over the $3 New Zealand mark here, which is quite a significant pain point for a lot of motorists in the country.

[Emma Nelson]

Dr. Jeffrey Miller, thank you for joining us on the line from Wellington. You're listening to the Globalist on Monogal Radio. And finally, on today's programme, the future of urban living was a key conversation topic at mipim, the world's largest real estate event, which takes place in Cannes every March. Well, time after time, city dwellers have shown their residents resilience, staying put despite rising interest rates, geopolitical turmoil or even in the face of a pandemic. While Anthony Duggan is the chair of Europe for Knight Frank and someone who's been guiding the firm's strategic growth, Monocle's editor in chief, Andrew Tuck, spoke with Anthony at MIPPIM to get a sense of what trends he's spotting about where cities are heading next and where in the world he thinks we should be looking at.

[Anthony Duggan]

Real estate people need to think in cycles of 5 to 10 to 15 years. Whether you're buying a house or you're investing or you're developing or you're one of the people that are thinking about the future of a city and how it's going to evolve. I think about, I suppose, what the megatrends or demographics are for this generation of real estate. And the three Ds that I always come back to is demographics and those demographic shifts, digitalization having a huge impact and then decarbonization. They're the things that I think will drive us through the next 20 years or so. In the shorter term. We've had to add defence into that, I think, and globalization. And so come Back to your point, there's this drive of cities that can provide all of those things and are being able to harness all of those kind of things. And Madrid's a great example of that. A city that's got real momentum, that's got the right demographics, incoming, that's got, that's got capital attractions from all over the world. Because it feels like a robust, a safe, a legitimate place to do business, to own, to own real estate as well. So you could look at places like Madrid, you can look at Lisbon, really. Interestingly, one of the things that we've seen in our research is just how Germany is back up on the radar again and those cities like Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt becoming more important, both on a residential side, but particularly on a commercial side. People are looking at really that de globalization place and saying, well, Germany is the fourth biggest economy in the world. The German government has realized that it needs to, it really needs to sort of step into the space that's been created by the US moving away. It's really looking at what does that look like from an infrastructure perspective, what does that look like from an investment perspective? And again, the data shows that the first quarter of this year, Germany will be the top investment destination for capital from. For investment capital.

[Andrew Tuck]

That's fascinating because the German economy has taken a bit of a battering. Many people over the last couple of years have rather negative sentiment about it. You talk about deglobalization, explain that to an audience that perhaps doesn't think about how that filters through to the world of property, of the buildings we need. So is that because the German economy, for example, will need to build more defensive systems, for example. So the Union University cities suddenly become more important. Campuses where you have tech people base become more important. And the amazing thing about a federal Germany, you have all of these centers of knowledge. Is that why Germany suddenly looks maybe a bit more appealing as an investment opportunity?

[Anthony Duggan]

Yeah, exactly that. It has the scale, it has the depth of economy. It just needed that kickstart, which I think it's got now. And it does have these amazing universities, this amazing innovation, it has this amazing manufacturing base in a global. Again, you could have probably looked back 18 to 24 months ago and says, is Germany the future of automotive manufacturing? Maybe it isn't. But actually you look at some of those automotive sites, they are now being transformed into defense sites because the skill sets are the same. You know, you need manufacturing, you need innovation, you need engineers, you need those universities that provide those skills so you can do what is now very Very high tech manufacturing.

[Andrew Tuck]

Take me through a couple of the other Ds that you mentioned there. For example, when you come to decarbonization, again, a fascinating story here because whether it's true or not, the background music or the noise rather coming from the US is look, we're going to pull in a different direction. We're not going to support companies that talk about ESG all the time. We don't want to go down that route. Whereas in Europe, I'm amazed that even often the US based European European operations of those companies or the rather the European based centers, those US operations, they're still talking about how we deliver on these things. Every building I go to see with a developer or a project lead is like, okay, we're going for another higher level of certification to prove that we're doing our best. Again, do you think that that story is now so embedded through investment, through, through companies having to annual reports to their shareholders that actually that is going to track along quite nicely no matter what the mood music is from dc?

[Anthony Duggan]

Yeah, absolutely. It's still part of the conversations we have every single day. Whether that's with an investor, whether that's with an individual, a developer, or with all with public bodies as well. And as you say, the big wave is coming through regulation and corporate regulation. So you have to do these things and it's only going to continue to get tighter over, over the next few years. Even US as a, as a private business are getting increasingly caught into, into regulations which previously were really public, public business type regulations. And that means that occupiers are looking for that. It means that developers are looking for, that means institutions which are their investors are looking for that. You know, we've seen increasing instances of, of pending pension funds and others taking money out, still taking money out of funds that they don't think are doing what they need to be doing. And so that dislocation between the US and the rest of the world, particularly Europe, which is ahead in, in a lot of these areas is really important.

[Andrew Tuck]

Let's touch on the other day. One of the other D's dog. And there's demographics. There's so many D's going on here. Let's get, let's get one of the other ones. Let's look at that demographic one. I was reading just in the last couple of days. You know, for example, example in a city like London where it was predicted that nobody would return to the office, but there's been a push by the big banks and things. But actually even the smaller Companies, a return to the office. Still some flex, maybe three days rather than two now, but still some flex. But there's actually a shortage. The best high quality office space, for example. Does that surprise you that we've ended up back there? And how does that back into your. Well, the demographic work that you have to think about.

[Anthony Duggan]

Yeah, this, this, a lot of this comes back to that, that drive of urbanization which is thousands of years old, but it hasn't gone away even in the last 10 to 20 years. People are still attracted towards cities and the office space is a big part of that. You know, the successful cities are the ones that have brilliant office space, but as we talked about, also have brilliant universities, brilliant cultural interaction integration, brilliant retail, the leisure facilities. And you know, we talked about Madrid earlier. That's a, that's a great example of a city that over 10 years or so has put all those things together and got it really moving. And Lisbon's the same. You look, you go to someone like Warsaw again, you can feel the energy in that, in that city because it's got the real estate along that's catching those demographics. The younger population want to move into that city because it feels like somewhere that they want to work, they want to live, they want to evolve. And all of that comes together into something that is super exciting.

[Emma Nelson]

Anthony Duggan there from Knight Frank. Talking to Monocle's editor in chief Andrew Tuck at MIPIM in Cannes earlier this month. And that's all the time we have for today's program. The warmest of thanks to all my guests and to the producers Hassan Anderson, Carlotta Rebelo and Tom Webb. Our researcher is Anneliese Maynard and our studio manager, Will was Lily Austin. After the headlines, there's more music on the way. The briefing's live at midday here in London. The globalist is back at the same time tomorrow. But for now, from me, Emma Nelson, goodbye. Thank you very much for listening.

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