Saks's struggles and Glossy E-Commerce Summit takeaways — plus, a roundtable on the state of luxury

Summary

The Glossy Podcast: Saks's Struggles and Glossy E-Commerce Summit Takeaways — Plus, a Roundtable on the State of Luxury

Release Date: June 6, 2025
Host: Danny Parisi
Guest: Jill Manoff, Editor-in-Chief

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Introduction

In this episode of The Glossy Podcast, host Danny Parisi and editor-in-chief Jill Manoff delve into the challenges facing Saks Fifth Avenue amidst its financial struggles and provide insightful takeaways from the recent Glossy E-Commerce Summit held in Miami. The episode culminates in a comprehensive roundtable discussion on the current state and future of the luxury market, featuring industry experts Bradley Carbone, Tanner Graham, and Joelle Grunberg.

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Saks Fifth Avenue: Financial Turmoil and Strategic Moves

The episode opens with a critical examination of Saks Fifth Avenue's precarious financial situation. Danny Parisi highlights multiple issues, including rumors of a joint venture to operate Bergdorf Goodman and a substantial $275 million in overdue payments to brands. This financial strain follows an attempted acquisition of Neiman Marcus and raises concerns about Saks's dominance in the U.S. luxury retail market.

Danny Parisi [03:03]: "Saks pretty much owns luxury in the U.S., brands have no negotiating power. Meanwhile, they're not paying brands, which is concerning."

Jill Manoff echoes these concerns, mentioning that Saks has not disbursed payments to brands since December and is relying on a $350 million financing round from SLR Credit Solutions to bolster its liquidity. This strategy, however, only shifts the debt burden, leaving brands uncertain about future payments.

Jill Manoff [07:25]: "They haven't been paid since December. Nothing new there."

The discussion also touches on Saks's controversial moves, such as opening a storefront on Amazon and a partnership with Authentic Brands Group to license Saks Fifth Avenue-branded clothing in Costco. These moves are seen as diminishing the exclusivity traditionally associated with luxury brands.

Jill Manoff [08:17]: "Saks is doing a lot of things that are not very luxurious, like opening a Saks storefront on Amazon."

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Glossy E-Commerce Summit: Key Takeaways

Fresh from the Glossy E-Commerce Summit, Danny and Jill share pivotal insights from the event. One significant trend discussed is the evolving relationship between brands and retailers, with a particular focus on the reliability and support provided by partners like Nordstrom and Printom.

Danny Parisi [12:46]: "Nordstrom and Printom both got good reviews from people I talk to in terms of being easy to work with and reliable."

The summit also highlighted the increasing importance of influencer-driven platforms such as Shop My, which received unanimous positive feedback from attendees.

Jill Manoff [12:58]: "Somebody in one larger group said, 'Anybody have anything negative to say why we maybe shouldn't go there?' And like crickets, nobody had anything bad to say."

Additionally, the impact of tariffs on luxury brands was a hot topic, with brands grappling with increased costs and supply chain delays affecting their holiday planning.

Danny Parisi [13:20]: "Brands are already planning holiday 2026 because they're dealing with delays of two weeks to six months."

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Roundtable Discussion: The State of Luxury

The latter part of the episode features an in-depth roundtable with three industry experts: Bradley Carbone (Deputy CEO of Luisa Villaroma), Tanner Graham (CEO and Co-Founder of General Idea), and Joelle Grunberg (Partner at McKinsey & Company). The discussion explores the current landscape of the luxury market, highlighting both challenges and opportunities.

Current Market Challenges

Joelle Grunberg sets the stage by outlining three primary factors impacting the luxury industry:

1. Stagnation in China: Previously a significant growth driver, China's market has plateaued.
2. Shift in Aspirational Consumers: The upper middle class in the U.S. is experiencing economic pressures, reducing discretionary spending.
3. Changing Consumer Preferences: A move towards valuing experiences over material possessions.

Joelle Grunberg [22:32]: "The industry is really at a crossroads."

Redefining Luxury

Tanner Graham discusses the overinflation of the luxury market during the pandemic, leading to a necessary "reset" where brands must redefine what luxury means to modern consumers.

Tanner Graham [24:31]: "The luxury market got overinflated... now we're looking towards a recentering of what luxury actually is."

Consumer Behavior and Brand Strategies

Bradley Carbone emphasizes the "identity crisis" within luxury brands, where traditional definitions clash with broader, more inclusive interpretations. He also highlights the importance of storytelling and maintaining clear brand values to build emotional connections with consumers.

Bradley Carbone [32:48]: "Clear storytelling, cultural relevance, and articulation of values help certain brands get ahead in this game."

Impact of Tariffs and Supply Chain Issues

Both Joelle and Tanner address the ramifications of tariffs, noting that they complicate pricing strategies and consumer perceptions. Tanner points out that consumers' awareness of tariffs leads to decreased confidence and cautious spending.

Joelle Grunberg [40:34]: "Some brands have more leeway to increase prices and pass tariffs onto retail prices, while others don’t."

Tanner Graham [42:12]: "Tariffs are compromising consumer confidence, adding to the wait-and-see moment."

The Role of Retail and Experiences

The roundtable underscores the enduring value of physical retail spaces, where consumers can experience products firsthand, enhancing their confidence in high-quality purchases.

Bradley Carbone [38:35]: "Experiences, both physical and digital, are becoming increasingly important."

Future Outlook and Resilience

The experts agree that the luxury market will gradually stabilize as economic conditions improve. Brands that proactively address their challenges, embrace new technologies, and maintain strong narratives are poised to thrive.

Joelle Grunberg [50:33]: "Brands need to be on offense, addressing specific problems to ensure their individual improvement."

Bradley Carbone [54:35]: "Those who rethink their brand identity and strategies during tough times will come out on top."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Glossy Podcast provides a critical look at the tumultuous state of Saks Fifth Avenue and the broader luxury market. Through insightful discussions and expert opinions, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the challenges and strategic moves shaping the future of luxury retail. The dialogue underscores the necessity for brands to adapt, innovate, and maintain clear, compelling narratives to navigate the evolving landscape successfully.

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Key Takeaways:

• Saks Fifth Avenue is grappling with significant financial issues, impacting its relationships with luxury brands.
• The Glossy E-Commerce Summit highlighted the shifting dynamics between retailers and brands, emphasizing the importance of reliable partnerships.
• The luxury market is undergoing a redefinition, influenced by economic pressures, changing consumer preferences, and global market shifts.
• Tariffs pose unique challenges for luxury brands, affecting pricing strategies and consumer confidence.
• Physical retail experiences remain vital in building consumer trust and showcasing product quality.
• The future of luxury hinges on brands’ ability to innovate, maintain strong storytelling, and adapt to changing market conditions.

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Notable Quotes:

• Danny Parisi [03:03]: "Saks pretty much owns luxury in the U.S., brands have no negotiating power."
• Jill Manoff [08:17]: "Saks is doing a lot of things that are not very luxurious, like opening a Saks storefront on Amazon."
• Joelle Grunberg [22:32]: "The industry is really at a crossroads."
• Bradley Carbone [32:48]: "Clear storytelling, cultural relevance, and articulation of values help certain brands get ahead in this game."
• Joelle Grunberg [50:33]: "Brands need to be on offense, addressing specific problems to ensure their individual improvement."

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For More Insights: Visit Glossy's website for additional articles and event coverage.

Transcript

[Danny Parisi]

So you're scaling globally. But if you're accepting higher fees, failed payments and tax complexity off the rack, that's not a good look. Reach is a merchant of record that helps leading fashion brands streamline cross border operations with local payments, fraud protection and automated tax compliance already integrated into the platforms you use. Simplified global selling is always in style. Learn [e-mail] glossy hello and welcome back to the Glossy Podcast. I'm your host, senior fashion reporter Danny Parisi, and I'm here with our editor in chief, Jill Manoff. Hello Jill.

[Jill Manoff]

Good morning. Who are you?

[Danny Parisi]

I know I almost skipped my, almost skipped my title. That would not be acceptable. Jill and I are freshly back from Miami where we hosted the Glossy Ecommerce Summit and there was so much good conversation there. Later in the episode, we'll talk a little bit about some of the interesting things we heard from the brands who were in attendance. First, though, we have some news from this week to break down. First, we're going to talk about a couple of things happening with Saks, which by the way, also came up quite a bit at the summit. The relationship some brands have with Saks. Then, yes, we will give you some of the takeaways from the E Commerce Summit after the break. Jill, you recorded a great roundtable discussion on luxury with some pretty cool people who joined you for that.

[Jill Manoff]

Yes, we had our friend Bradley Carbone, deputy CEO of Luisa Villaroma, where we recently did an event. We also had Tanner Graham. He's the CEO and co founder of the branding agency General Idea. They work with a lot of luxury brands like Louis Vuitton, Prada, Moncler. They do a lot of work with them. So he had a great perspective. And then last but not least, we had Joelle Grunberg. She's a partner at McKinsey and Company, a leader in its fashion and luxury practice in New York City. So yes, a great roundtable discussion about all things luxury. It was great.

[Danny Parisi]

Good. Well, like I said, that's after the break. But first, let's talk about some news. I want to talk about Saks. There was multiple things with Saks Global this week. First is this rumor that they are looking to form some sort of joint venture to operate Bergdorf Goodman, although who that joint venture would be with I think is still kind of up in the air. There's more to get into in a second. They also got this big injection of cash which comes shortly after they were kind of put on notice that their credit rating might be downgraded because they were so Illiquid. But let's start with this joint venture for Bergdorf. I mean, we'll get to this when we talk about the summit. But Saks came up a lot in my conversations with the brands and one of the concerns was that they kind of have forced themselves into controlling a pretty broad swath of U.S. luxury retail. I don't know, what's the vibe you get from that?

[Jill Manoff]

Yeah, when I'm an executive, a founder and CEO of a 20 year old company. What she had to say was she couldn't believe the deal happened. We're seeing all of these big deals getting squashed because you don't want a monopoly on any industry or any one company to have too much power. So she was saying that, you know, now Sachs, she pretty much owns luxury in the U.S. she said brands have no negotiating power. Meanwhile, right now they're not paying brands. So that's concerning. But there was the comment where it's like, I mean, to say that they own luxury, maybe that's extreme. They had their executive chairman, Richard Baker at the World Retail Congress recently. He said the company now controls 60% of luxury distribute distribution in the US which is actually very significant. So yes, something to watch.

[Danny Parisi]

Yeah, and I was doing some digging and I believe Saks owes around $275 million in overdue payments to brands, which is just crazy. And like, I remember when we first started reporting on this maybe a year or two ago, the first conversation I had with a brand that was like, this was like in the middle of the deal to acquire Neiman Marcus, that whole thing where they were paying like, you know, almost $2 billion and this brand founder was like, and they don't have $10,000 to pay me, like they've got 2 billion or whatever for. And obviously it's not necessarily 2 billion cash, but it's just very, I can see the frustration from brands and like you said, they don't have a full monopoly on luxury in the US but a pretty big chunk and especially if you want to do any sort of wholesale. And there are newer players like Printom is, you know, in the US now and they were mentioned a couple of times at the summit as well. But still, even with all the, the chaos at Sachs, I mean there's still a pretty big deal.

[Jill Manoff]

Yes, totally. We've mentioned this on the podcast before, but they came out with their I guess, statement in February where they said they're going to make vendors whole by mid-2026, which at this point it's about a year away. But still, that's a long way for brands to wait when right now everyone's kind of struggling and concerned about tariffs, but they are paying for new merchandise, I guess newly new orders within 90 days or I. That's how I understand it. You know, question mark? Yeah, but, yeah, on that, on that front, you know, this is a different department store, Nordstrom, but with the, with tariffs raising prices for brands. Somebody at the summit also said, you know, what does this mean for retailers? Like, they said, like Nordstrom doesn't have the money to pay for all these brands. Like on top of that. So maybe, you know, we're at this big turning point for the state of the department store. As you know, Saks has ownership, but also like will the wholesale model stand? Will everything move to like drop shipping or some other sort of a model? Because yes, I'm with the woman. Like retail retailers are going to, they're also going to see their prices skyrocket because, you know, they're worried about margins, obviously. So anyway, all the things are compiling.

[Danny Parisi]

And at the same time, a lot of the classic DTC strategies like spending a bunch on Meta and Google to acquire customers also getting more expensive. So it's like wholesale has all these problems, but then also the direct model has lots of problems too. So if I were a brand, I feel like I would not know which to go with. We talked a little bit on stage at the summit about how in more treacherous economic times, wholesale might be a little more appealing because it should be guaranteed cash, guaranteed. You're latching yourself onto this big retail partner and hopefully together can stay afloat. But Saks has been extremely unreliable. The other big news this week is that they secured, I think $350 million financing round from SLR Credit Solutions, which Saks Global CEO Mark Metric said that puts them at around $700 million in liquidity. And I mentioned this, but a couple weeks ago, I think in beginning of May, Standard and Poor was going to downgrade Saks's credit rating because they just had no cash and they owed so much. But now they're taking on more loans and they're going to, now maybe they can pay their brands back, but now they'll owe somebody else. Just feels very rickety, right?

[Jill Manoff]

Yes, it was worded like it saved Christmas for them or it saved Holiday. But yeah, I'm sure that brands weren't going to cough up new inventory if they didn't have the money to pay them, even though this 90 day promise stands. But yeah, good for them. We need some luxury holiday Happening. But yeah, I heard that too. So wild. We heard various things from. From the brands at the summit where one said, you know, they haven't been paid since December. I mean, nothing new there, but yeah.

[Danny Parisi]

And should we. Should we say that one strategy somebody said about how they got Saks to pay them, which was to send them a draft of the TikTok they were gonna post about Saks not paying, and then Saks paid right after. So I thought that was very funny.

[Jill Manoff]

That was fun.

[Danny Parisi]

Anything else on Saks, or should we move on and talk about some other summit stuff?

[Jill Manoff]

Let's start. Let's talk about Bergdorf a little bit.

[Danny Parisi]

Oh, yeah.

[Jill Manoff]

Because they do own Bergdorf, having acquired Neiman Marcus. Yeah. There are various, like, I wanna say, like, is nothing sacred? Like, don't touch Bergdorf. And I know that there are a lot of concerns out there about, like, what's going to happen. This is like ultra luxury. It's this iconic institution. And meanwhile, Saks is doing a lot of things that kind of, I would say, are not very luxurious, like opening a Saks storefront on Amazon.

[Danny Parisi]

Amazon. Yep.

[Jill Manoff]

Yeah. I mean, and that is kind of like changing with the times. There's a lot of luxury happening on. Happening on Amazon. But, I mean, will Bergdorf be on Amazon question mark, question mark. And then at the same time, they have a deal, Saks Global with Authentic Brands Group, called Authentic Luxury Group. And through that deal, Authentic, I guess, owns the licenses for Saks Fifth Avenue's. Yeah, the license. So, like, there was a story recently that Saks Fifth Avenue branded clothing, men's clothing, was going to be popping up in Costco and that soon women's clothing will also be popping up in Costco. And, you know, I think Saks didn't have a comment on it. I don't think that we've seen. Seen that come to fruition. But there are various things that are, you know, not Lux. So I think this is something to watch, something to be concerned about. Because if they do own the large part of luxury and luxury is all about brand and exclusivity, what does it mean for us? Luxury, because, you know, it's already the underdog, I would say.

[Danny Parisi]

Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned the Costco thing. As much as I love Costco, you're right, I think it's kind of the opposite of luxury in. In a lot of ways. But, yeah, I think they've been. They're clearly, I think the whole process from acquiring Neiman Marcus and through the last couple of months, I Just get this sense of like they're stretched so thin and trying to just hold it out until they can sort of stabilize. And in the meantime, you know, brands kind of get left by the wayside. And we talked about this and maybe this is a good transition to talk more about stuff we heard at the summit. But I feel like this friction between brand and retailer came up quite a bit and you know they rely on each other in a lot of ways. But also I think there's a lot of frustration even beyond just not getting paid on time.

[Jill Manoff]

Yeah, there was, it's like we were questioning kind of like where what is the state of power between brand and retail retailer? Somebody that was kind of striking a good balance and it works to her advantage that she's got a built in following and this community that we also talked about the value of community. But Cass d' Amico, she's an influencer turned founder, nearly a million followers and she's got a accessories brand called Orum Collective. You know, I was questioning whether a lot of her following and a lot of her sales come through her followers and she was like, yes, but honestly you know that that's somewhat limiting even though it's almost a million people. So she's like I do rely on my retail partners for awareness and to bring new people to my world. Some of them don't even know me. And she does, you know, sell through Revolve and some of these larger players. So that was interesting. And we also heard a lot from Target and Walmart. We had some C suite executives on our stage. Very lucky, very awesome. And they were talking about their how they're growing multi billion dollar brands in house, their private labels have, are soaring like Cat and Jack. I think the kids brand at Target is one of the largest kids brands out there which is so significant. So I mean yes, retailers have a lot of power. The buzzy direct to consumer brands are flocking to these, to these retailers. We heard Warby Parker is opening shop and shops in Target which you know has been in the news but it's interesting.

[Danny Parisi]

Yeah. And then Target had that big collaboration with Kate Spade which I saw was like one of their biggest launches ever. Not just collaborations but just like launches in general. So yeah, it does feel like there's that like collaboration between brand and retailer can happen. I mean I was talking to some people backstage about sack stuff and several mentioned that there are good partners out there. Nordstrom and Print Tom both got good, good reviews from people I talk to in terms of being easy to work with and reliable and, you know, taking care of their brands and things like that. So that collaboration is, is doable.

[Jill Manoff]

Yes. Off the topic. But it was wild. So in so many different conversations. So it was different groups, different people. Like the shop, my came up as an AW partner, which is just an online platform affiliate marketing shop.

[Danny Parisi]

Mine came up a lot. Yeah.

[Jill Manoff]

Yes. And somebody in one larger group said, anybody have anything, you know, negative to say why we maybe shouldn't go there? And like crickets, nobody had anything bad to say. Like everyone's really believe, believes in this platform and it's driving great sales for them. It's kind of the evolution of the influencer model. So that was cool. That's something evolving and positive.

[Danny Parisi]

Another interesting thing, which I, I mentioned this a little bit in my fashion briefing this week, but I led a group about planning for holiday 2025 and some people were like, we're already planning holiday 2026 because we're just like, the delays are going to be so bad. So we're already talking with our manufacturers, trying to get them set up for stuff way ahead of time because we talked a lot about how tariffs have impacted costs, but they've also impacted shipping times and brands are saying they've got stuff two weeks late, two months late, like six months late, or they had stuff sent back to the, the country that it came from and then they had, they like just had no inventory. So I think there's still, even though we've talked a little bit about tariffs, kind of, you know, the Trump administration backing off a little bit or easing some things. But it, the vibe that I got was there's still lots to sort through there.

[Jill Manoff]

Lots to sort through there. Yes. We were questioning if this holiday, if there's going to be less like seasonal merchandise like the Advent calendars that we typically see, because I think brands are scared to invest in that because when are they going to see this merchandise and are they going to be sitting on all this product that can't be sold until, you know, another year from now? Some brands are seeing, got their Advent and calendars there. They're running with it. It was nice to hear that like a, a razor company is, you know, launching holiday branded stuff for the first time. They see it as a stuff stocking stuffer. There was, I think, a lot of brands moved fast to get ahead of all this supply craziness and of course they're still so the details because I don't know, that's a lot of investment up front or sooner than they would have Liked.

[Danny Parisi]

Yeah. How about one more thing I want to talk about. I wasn't in this group, but you led what I heard was a great group about AI, which came up on the main stage quite a few times. And more than just kind of like we had a uncanny looking AI model or something, like more behind the scenes kind of AI stuff. The ThreadUp team showed off a really cool tool that takes a Pinterest mood board and uses AI to like find you products that are maybe like if you have stuff in your mood board that's not shoppable, that's not already linked to a product, it'll go through and like visually search like here's some products, here's some brands that kind of fit the mood. I thought that was very cool. Anything else from your working group on AI?

[Jill Manoff]

Yeah, well there was a lot of talk about like backlash using from using AI. Like I guess like we didn't even think anyone could tell and we're getting all these comments like we liked you better when you didn't use AI. So yeah, a lot it came out. We had a large discussion about content. We talked a little bit about this in our kind of recap of the event, but a lot of talk about the demand for content. Like there's never enough content and so AI is kind of a shortcut. But that's high risk. Like when you put it out there, you have to, I don't know if it's hopefully that you're not using AI for the model or the person. That was kind of where people stopped, like we'll use it for the backdrop but like we need people. Also there was talk about like the high risk of similarly of working with just like so many influencers and how when, when you're giving them free rein to say anything they want, like where does the brand stand? You need a strong brand and you need to share your values and so the influencer isn't always going to do that. And it was kind of like the balance between the high risk and the high cost of like H and M. Talked about their celebrity partnerships and the success of that when it comes to marketing and like some of these more produced videos, those kind of cat traction, sometimes those are very spendy. So a lot of talk on that front.

[Danny Parisi]

It was a great event. I think there was a, you know, and we did lots of coverage of it on the glossy site so there's more there. But it's always fun to hear from the brands kind of in person and the attendees and what they're talking about. Gave me a lot of fodder for future stories.

[Jill Manoff]

Agree. Me too. My favorite thing I just want to call out. I know we're running out of time. One of the founders talked about like, I think we put this in the title. Could this be like the end of price tags? Like we can't have price tags. Like the pricing is too dynamic.

[Danny Parisi]

Changing.

[Jill Manoff]

Yeah, changing all the time. So she's like, my retail partners are fine with us changing the pricing, but they don't like the logistics of it all are so complicated. They're like, how do we even go about it? We're doing it all the time. Do we have store associates going around and re tagging all the time? Like they can't be doing that all day. It is interesting. Like we just talk about raising prices, but what does that mean in realization or in actuality? So anyway, complicated.

[Danny Parisi]

Yeah, that was interesting. But it was great to be there and it was great to see you in person, Jill. It's been a while. I think that's all the time we have for our week in review segment. But like I said, we're going to take a short break and then you had this great roundtable on the future of luxury. Any other little teases you can give us from the conversation?

[Jill Manoff]

Yeah, well, it was really the conversation and the whole idea was just built on like, are we in this crisis mode for luxury? Because you know, it was accelerated growth between 2021 and 2023, like double digit growth post the height of the pandemic and everyone had a little bit extra money to spend and luxury brands were effectively leaning into that. So now that we're seeing declines across, more so across the luxury conglomerates. Kering and lvmh for example, Kering in the first quarter in April reported they had 14% decline in sales. We call out Gucci in the first quarter, a 25 drop at Gucci. They've seen designer overturn. There's a lot, a lot involved there, but that's concerning. And then LVMH for its part, not declining sales, but declining in its fashion and leather goods segment. Revenue decreased 5%. Obviously they've got all these other segments, spirits and such to kind of balance things. But yes, something to watch. And meanwhile there are these players we dug in a little bit to like, what are they doing differently? Because Prada and Hermes and some of these others are doing okay. They're, they're seeing this consistent growth. They're more exclusive. Like speaking of what Sachs is doing. So yeah, there's something to watch.

[Danny Parisi]

It Sounds like a great conversation. And like I said, stick around after the short break. And if you want to hear that, we'll be right back. Saving money, selling internationally and boosting your transaction approval rates is always in style. As a merchant of record, Reach helps ambitious fashion and beauty brands optimize global sales with local payments, fraud protection and done for you, tax compliance. From registration to filing and remitting, Reach is already integrated into the platforms you use. So activation is fast. No coding, no extra dev work. Brands like Revolve and Everlane use Reach to increase approval rates to over 90% and cut cross border costs by up to 40% while eliminating the stress of global compliance. Learn how to unlock the full potential of your global sales at withreach.com glossy that's withreach.com/glossy.

[Jill Manoff]

Hello. Today I'm sitting with three experts on the state of the luxury market. Today we've got Bradley Carbone, deputy CEO of the multi brand luxury retailer Luisa Villaroma, which is headquartered in Florence, Italy and opened up a glorious New York City flagship within the last year. Also we've got Tanner Graham, CEO and co founder of the branding agency General Idea, which has worked with Louis Vuitton, Prada, Moncler and Byredo, among many others. And last but not least, we've got Joelle Grunberg, a partner at McKinsey & Co. And leader in its fashion and luxury practice in New York city. She has 20 years experience as a CEO of companies including a branch of Galeries Lafayette and Lacoste, north and South Central America. So thank you all for being here. First of all, welcome.

[Bradley Carbone]

Thank you, Joe.

[Tanner Graham]

Thank you, Joe.

[Jill Manoff]

Yeah, excited. So after a period of great growth from about 2021 to 2023, luxury fashion companies are reporting double digit declines, with the exception of some, including Prada and Hermes, among others. So today we're going to explore what's happening in luxury, including whether luxury brands are in are in crisis, whether this is a correction year for the market and how the market typically fares in a recession year. Not that we're there yet, God forbid. We'll also discuss what the brands that are winning are doing right and what we can expect from brands. Next steps. For its part, as of this week, even Chanel reported that its infamous significant price hikes won't be happening anytime soon. So much to discuss today. Let's jump in. Let's do it. So I'll start with you, Joelle, because I really want everybody to answer this question from their own point of view. And I think that you've kind of, kind of got the most broad and I guess perspective on things. The question is just high level, like how would you describe the current state of the luxury market? What are you seeing now? How is this a unique year?

[Joelle Grunberg]

So as you said Jill, it's a, it's a very unique year. And I think what we can say is the industry is really at a crossroads. I think what has really changed in the past year or so is three different things. The first thing is that the growth engine of luxury post Covid has really been China. It's been 40% of the growth of the luxury industry. And as we know, China is at a standstill for different reasons. The second thing is that the aspirational luxury consumer and more specifically in the US is right now on pause for different reasons. The employment market of the upper middle class. And again that customer is out of priced in most situations. And then there's the broader, I would say change in consumer patterns and people wanting to spend more money on experiences versus buying things. So these three things are at play which you know, obviously is impacting the industry. It's not impacting all the brands the same way. As you said, some brands are doing a much better job than others and we'll come back to that. But it's obviously causing a bit of a shock. And I think the industry was normalizing after years of record growth. But we're now seeing that this normalization is in fact a significant decrease. So you know, again, we're really at a crossroads.

[Jill Manoff]

Agree, agree. Well, Bradley, you kind of have a unique point of view. Probably you can have more to say about consumer behavior in terms of what's happening in the luxury space. How would you describe, yeah. The state of luxury now in terms of. You see it day and day with the luxury consumer. At Luisa Villaroma.

[Tanner Graham]

I think a lot of what Joelle just said, I'm in line with many of her comments. To add on to it, I would say that the luxury market got overinflated for a period there. You know, kind of in the pre pandemic and the during pandemic times, the idea of luxury got expanded much larger than what it traditionally was.

[Bradley Carbone]

Right.

[Tanner Graham]

It started to encompass categories that were actually not part of the luxury environment and these brands got audiences that were much larger than traditional. So I think that this reset, all of these different external and internal factors are going to affect the market size of the industry. You know, we're going through, we have a wait and see scenario in the economics, but I think we're also looking towards a recentering of what luxury actually is and who the actual luxury consumer is.

[Jill Manoff]

So interesting. Yes, we'll see. So redefining luxury all around. Tanner, you've got a unique perspective yourself. I think that you're probably seeing what brands are prioritizing from your point of view and maybe what they are investing in, where there may be pulling back. Like what's happening in terms of. From the agency side.

[Bradley Carbone]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to build upon Joelle and Bradley's comments, I would say, you know, I'm sort of seeing similar trends happening in terms of macros that are driving the change in what luxury is today. You know, I think there's a little bit, on Bradley's point, I think there is a little bit of an identity crisis in luxury right now. So it's sort of unclear what luxury means. Exactly. I think the traditional idea of, you know, this rarefied, high quality object is still true in some cases, but, you know, I think the definition has taken on a much broader scope. So I think sort of, sort of figuring and navigating that and then along with sort of a changing media landscape, you know, with lots of luxury brands warming up to the ideas of new platforms like TikTok and then last year sort of going through moments in which that potentially would go away or not go away, and sort of figuring out how to invest dollars, how to reach their customer, and then some of the new technologies such as AI in terms of not only the media landscape and how it's affecting that, but also in terms of how it's affecting content creation is another consideration. So I think sort of playing with all of this, along with probably a somewhat fatigued consumer in terms of generational shifts and prioritizing different aspects of how they spend their money, I think it's all sort of fueling a real inflection point in luxury.

[Jill Manoff]

Definitely. Well, in terms of what's happening with the aspirational customer and their habits and for a long time we talked about the value of the top 1% in these VIPs or whatever the retailer calls them. But like, where are, what's the target customer now? If we had to define one, is it everyone in anyone and everyone, or is it these very high net worth individuals? Joelle, what would you say on. On that front?

[Joelle Grunberg]

Well, it's both. Right. So right now you have, you know, two main categories of consumers, the high net worth and ultra high net worth on one side and then the aspirational luxury consumer on the other side. Depending on the brand and the positioning of the brand, more or less luxury, there's more of one or more of the other. I think what we're seeing now is that the ultra high net worth has been more protected and shielded from inflation, from crisis, from a bit everything. So which is why some of the most luxury brands or the most expensive brands are performing better because their customers resisting better. I would say on the aspirational luxury consumer side, that's where it's tougher because these are people who are again upper middle class people in the US who have been potentially let go by some of the, you know, big, you know, tech companies, big banks, etc. And so these people who used to splurge once or twice a year on a nice handbag or a dress are not doing so anymore because they're wary of their situation and they don't know when they're going to get a new job or what type of compensation. Right. So I think, you know, that's the situation and it's pretty difficult right now for the different brands to kind of refocus their marketing efforts on part of the customers that they usually weren't reaching out to. And more specifically, I would say entry level, you know, luxury consumers.

[Jill Manoff]

Well, tied to that question. Bradley, I want to ask you what you would say. What's, I guess what are the similarities or commonalities between the brands that are the companies that are performing well? Is it just that they, you know, speak to, they have that built in customer that's very well off or, you know, we've talked in the past about some of these brands like Kate and Totem, I mean they're killing it on the retail level. They're, they've got a very kind of cultish kind of following. Like, I don't know, like what, what's working for the. What the brands that are performing that are seeing success, like what are they doing? Right, sure.

[Tanner Graham]

I think that in the true luxury space, which is where we focus with Louisa Viaroma, you are seeing the flight to quality or perceived quality. And that's why we see brands like Hermes, Thoreau, Prada doing very well. We're also seeing a energy going into fine jewelry where people can justify the spend on materials even if the price tag does not perfectly match the value of the underlying asset. There's still a psychological play that yes, I'm buying hard goods that have real material value. So we're kind of seeing that at the top end of the spectrum. Right. So flight to quality with these high quality brands and then flight towards material, I think at the lower end, at that kind of aspirational level, that's where customers are getting lost. You know, especially with the growth in prices in handbags. Obviously, the industry is always going to have the kind of entry level with makeup, perfumes, and pieces like this. But where we are really kind of analyzing the audience is at this kind of upper level and watching the brands that are doing well. One final brand that we didn't bring up, you know, is Phoebe Filo. That's doing very well because they've evolved that, you know, the cursed, dreaded, quiet luxury phrase that everybody hates to say right now. But Phoebe Filo's done a great job of kind of taking that idea and modernizing it. Right. Giving it an edge. So that way there is some seasonality to it to kind of. That can be a path moving forward in the new luxury.

[Jill Manoff]

And speaking of that kind of aspirational customer kind of falling off or, you know, not buying into luxury like they once did. Tanner, I would think you built. You kind of are responsible for creating the. I don't know, what do you call it? Like, creating. Helping brands build cachet, creating these beautiful worlds for them, with them. What's working on that front? I mean, that's probably hard to pinpoint.

[Bradley Carbone]

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot sort of driving that. You know, I think the brands that are excelling right now and sort of, let's say, more on the winning end, are very much tuned into a single, like, very clear story that they can tell from, you know, the highest level of the brand all the way down to all the activations and all the things that they bring to life day to day. And having that sort of really compelling brand idea, it creates sort of an emotional connection. It creates a clear story. It creates a clear, like, understanding of what that brand represents. So I think it's a lot easier for customers to then be able to participate in that brand because, you know, they sort of understand it through and through. You know, of course, cultural relevance is always important with all brands. So, you know, different brands do that different ways. You know, obviously, we see a lot of brands tapping into celebrity influencers, and, you know, that continues to play a really important role in sort of brand building and sort of building community around that brand and sort of what they represent. And then, of course, sort of key beyond that is just thinking about, like, what are the brand values? You know, I think a lot of people care a lot about, like, what does the brand stand for? What does the brand care about? And, you know, how does that apply into my life. So I think between like clear storytelling, cultural relevance, sort of the right use of talent and clear articulation of values, I think it really helps certain brands sort of get ahead in this game.

[Jill Manoff]

For some brands, I think one way that they're trying to gain relevance is probably bringing in a younger, cooler in their eyes. Creative director obviously we've been seeing this musical chairs for quite some time and maybe it's a band Aid or showing investors we're doing something here, we're making a change. We're not just going to sit back, I don't know, rest on our Lord florals or what have you. But I don't know, Joel, what do you say? What do you feel about that? And like, what. What's the explanation for all of these creative director changes in your. From your point of view?

[Joelle Grunberg]

I think the brands are trying to understand, you know, how to get back on track. I think more broadly, most of them have a value proposition problem, which is what we were discussing. You know, the message or what they're trying to sell is not necessarily clear for the consumer. Their price positioning is now for some of them, way off. Right. They've increased prices. I think we've said it in a huge way in the last five years. For some of the brands, they are deposition because people can't just afford their products anymore. And I think, you know, to be very clear, what's resonating right now is the brand or the brands that, you know, have a very luxury, I would say positioning with a very differentiated and unique and scarce product that is difficult to find, that is on the wait list, that is a bit unique, right? Versus the brands that have things that are now, have now become commodities because they're everywhere, all over the world, etc. And then in terms of aesthetic, as Bradley said, you know, we're much more. We went from a lot of streetwear, very logo driven, very bold and very visible type of brands to brands that are now more subtle, more quiet a bit if you know, you know, type of brand. So we've, you know, we've said the road Locate, you know, all these brands, Laurel, Piano, Brunello, Cucinelli, all of these brands. So the aesthetic also that the consumer is looking for has changed. Right. There's a lot of different things at play. And so, you know, a director artistic. To come back to your question, that was the right one. Very relevant for our brand, you know, three years ago is not necessarily the one that you want today because again, things have changed and the expectations are different. So you want to, you know, that director, artistic director, to understand the DNA and the legacy of the brand because it's very important to capitalize on that. But you want to project that DNA into the future and, and, and, and the future of the brand. Right?

[Jill Manoff]

For sure. You talked a little bit about the value proposition or I don't know what's worth it in terms of investing in a luxury product. Like has that changed? Has the quality actually gone down, I guess, or does maybe the question is, does the customer, what is their take on like the importance of quality now? Are they asking questions, Bradley, in store, like, like, where is this made? And did brands, the prioritization of like the logo or the cool factor of a brand for so long, like did that allow brands to kind of, I don't know, step, sit back a little bit and quality did go down a little bit or what's your take on that?

[Tanner Graham]

I think that whether perceived or real, that there was when you're buying online, it's hard to understand the quality that you are interacting with. Right. And we found that having visitors at the physical retail has really allowed them to touch and feel goods. And we've actually seen, you know, we've seen some positive growth in the physical retail just in the past quarter. Right. As people want to return to life, they want to return to being one with the product also because they're paying into that experience. Right. These are high price point items. And while during the pandemic it was great to kind of click and have it delivered to you, which is still our major business, obviously having that added element of being able to touch and feel the goods creates confidence in the product. Right. So we find a lot of very strong customer feedback in the physical environment, which then allows us to drive interest and traffic towards our website business. So I think that's the argument for retail in this moment, which is kind of counter to what one might assume. Right. Because obviously retail is very expensive. Holding inventory is expensive. But having that ability to touch and feel the goods lets you understand items that are true luxury versus items that are kind of fashion or versus kind of the emerging brands who are also getting great energy right now. Right. The fact that the industry is in a downturn creates opportunity. Downturn might be a big word, but definitely a softening creates opportunities across the board. So we have kind of emerging brands on their way potentially breaking into this sphere. And then we have the creative director changes, as both Jill and Joelle mentioned. Right. The creative director changes right now are very interesting for industry people, but I think in a few months these will become a bit more imbued into the popular culture as people start getting excited for what. What will these new creative directors do at their new appointments and new houses?

[Jill Manoff]

Speaking of experiences, Tanner, you have much again, experience kind of creating experiences. I'm sure you're working with brands on their store concepts. Maybe, but yeah, is your take that brands are investing more in stores? They will be going this direction. I mean, as consumers invest more in experiences, can we expect to see, see more brand hotels, brand resort? I don't know. What's your take on brands kind of taking advantage of the opportunity as consumers are prioritizing experiences?

[Bradley Carbone]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, as, as consumers, I think we all want to be entertained, right? Whether that's through sort of a physical experience, whether that's through a virtual or digital experience. You know, as much as possible, when brands can act as sort of like storytellers and sort of lead you into their world, I think that very much sort of builds that connection and builds that community. And you know, I think that the storytellers of the brand was traditionally the brand itself and oftentimes the creative director. Right. And you know, as time has evolved, you know, it's interesting to watch some of these brands on, you know, on TikTok, for example, like some of them are using, using their retail teams or store associates or obviously influencers and other people that sort of orbit around the center of the brand that traditionally aren't sort of front facing. But it very much is about building that connection and building a broader world in terms of physical experiences. Brands are finding huge opportunities there because not only are you able to engage your community or your clients, but also they're becoming huge content engines or have become big content engines. And in some cases today we're even finding that they're replacing the campaign. Meaning these brands aren't necessarily going off and doing a dedicated photo shoot. Instead they're doing a really rich, deep storytelling experience where they can invite either consumers or influencers or celebrities or all the above and capture a ton of content that essentially becomes their marketing program for a period of time. So experiences from physical to digital are becoming increasingly important.

[Jill Manoff]

Well, we have to, we have to address, I guess, the elephant in the room, like tariffs are happening. I want to hear from you guys, like, how is this affecting luxury? Like high level or in general, like, we know it's affecting every business. Is there something unique to this space that we're not maybe considering even in our reporting? Like Joelle, what are you seeing?

[Joelle Grunberg]

Yeah, So I think, you know, the tariff conversation for me boils down to the pricing conversation because, you know, we started discussing that some of the brands have increased prices in a huge way in the past years and are kind of overpriced right now or at the top. Some of the brands have been more reasonable. And so as these tariffs come in or don't come in, you know, who knows how it's going to unfold? Some of the brands, I would say, have more leeway to increase prices and be able to pass the tariffs onto the retail price. And some of the brands have already started to make announcements and started to change their prices. In reality, some of the brands have just no room whatsoever because they're already too high. Right. So I think, you know, never let a good crisis to waste, right? This is the unique opportunity for brands to revisit their pricing in a more strategic way. And look at, you know, how am I positioned by category of product, by type of product, etc. How is my competition versus myself on these products and where do I want to be in the future? And some of the tariffs and the margin effect will have to be eaten up for some of them for sure, because otherwise they're going to get in an even worse position and some of them will be able to pass part of it. So, again, there's a lot of work to be done for each round to review their positioning in terms of price.

[Jill Manoff]

Bradley, I think your perspective is, again, unique. I'm sure you're in conversations with brands way more in the weeds on what's happening in their supply chain than you ever would want to be. But, yeah, what's your take on the tariffs conversation?

[Tanner Graham]

There's kind of two parts to it. There's the reality and there's the perception. Right. So on the reality, we are daily looking at the goods that we have in our inventory and figuring out which goods can still be shipped with a positive margin. Right? So there was a moment where we were actually shipping certain items at a negative profit because we had to, to kind of keep the brand moving, but kind of continually assessing which items can go where, given the current structure. So that's the reality, and the reality is constantly changing because tariffs are really, really complicated. Right. It's not just a simple headline, but this is the amount and this is how it goes. Right. So we're online with our brokers on a daily basis, figuring out how it affects individual goods. The other part that we're dealing with is the consumer perception of the tariffs conversation. The way that it Works right now is with everyone on their phones. You're getting a lot of headline news. So you're learning about tariffs in three to eight words, whether it's daily, weekly, monthly. I think what that's doing is it's compromising consumer confidence and they're being more cautious. Right. So we're seeing not so much today, but you know, in the past weeks seeing a pullback on consumer behavior, specifically in digital purchasing. Just because they don't know. Right. You're getting these quick blurbs that this is happening, these are issues, but people don't know how it's going to affect them or if it is affecting them already. Right. So they're looking at high prices that may have, and most likely the high pricing came in six months, a year, 18 months before, but they're looking at these higher prices and immediately linking to the tariff conversation that they're hearing so much about. So we get this kind of loss of consumer confidence and it further adds to this wait and see moment. So tariffs give us wait and see, new creative directors give us wait and see. And so the industry really is in this pause moment. But when you run a business, you can't just pause. Right. So we have to find creative ways to respond in real time. And that's why our daily meetings are that much more complex because we're trying to figure out how do we handle our supply chain and then how do we give our clients the confidence to purchase with us in both the digital and the physical space.

[Jill Manoff]

Bradley's like, don't wait and see, just shop.

[Tanner Graham]

We have wonderful things. We got you.

[Jill Manoff]

Tanner, from your perspective, I don't know if you're as in the weeds as like helping brands articulate messaging to their customers, but you tell me like, in terms of where brands are going here, I'm sure this is affecting their investment in like holiday campaigns or what they're, what they plan to do there. But yeah, what's happening on the creative side?

[Bradley Carbone]

Yeah, I mean, Jill, that's exactly it. To build off of Bradley's point a little bit on a day to day basis, we're generally dealing with CMOs and CEOs of these businesses and there is a real noticeable caution happening in terms of the vibe. I wouldn't say it's necessarily they're particularly pausing because like selling goods, they have to continue to market and create campaigns. However, I think it's a big distraction from the everyday. I was on a call last week with the CEO of a shoe brand and he was just like, listen, we don't know what's going on here. It changes every day, but it's a huge distraction from the rest of the business. I think in that regard it is having an impact on how quickly brands are making decisions around how to invest, specifically how much they're funneling into their marketing budgets and sort of what comes next is sort of on everyone's mind. So I think it's just creating a little bit of a cautious vibe throughout and putting a slightly delay on decision making.

[Jill Manoff]

What do you guys think about the value of addressing the advantage? I think maybe it's just obvious addressing the advantage of being like under a conglomerate versus an indie brand or are those giants just is going to keep bigger and getting bigger in times like this? Like I don't know anybody. Would anybody like to talk about that or do you think that it's like missing from this convo?

[Joelle Grunberg]

No, I mean obviously all the brands that are, you know, within conglomerates obviously have so much more marketing money and so much more, I would say support and infrastructure and back of house support. For sure. It makes a huge difference. But as we've said, it doesn't prevent smaller brands to, to grow and to come. And you know, fashion is, is, is a landscape where there are always new brands and new competitors. So, so you know, they, they are you're still able to grow now, are you able to grow to become 1 billion or $5 billion brands? That remains to be seen. But to grow 200 or 300 million business. Yes, you can for sure.

[Tanner Graham]

Yeah. I also think that that kind of the emerging brands, they're agile, right? So they can be more creative, they can take risks. Right. You know, for these big brands that are, that are appointing creative directors, they have existing businesses that they have to maintain or recover, they just can't be as nimble. Right. They have full structures built up and they have numbers to hit. So they're, they're risk averse. I mean look at this appointment of pure Paulo Pete to Balenciaga, right? Like they basically got rid of him. But they're like we have, they, we have to make a conservative choice with, you know, better to have the evil that you know than the EO that you don't know. You know, and I think that's, that's very real and you know, that will be a duality that will play out.

[Joelle Grunberg]

But I would say that the barriers today to entry for the small brand and the ability for these small brand to scale, you know, is, is, is, is, is, it's more and more difficult right today you know, your ability to open stores in key locations, to have a proper distribution in environments where department stores are in the situation that we know of, et cetera, it's just extremely difficult and you don't have the marketing money that the others have. So, you know, again, you can grow business from 0 to 200, 300, sometimes 500, but I can't tell you many examples of brands that have grown over a billion in the past couple of years.

[Jill Manoff]

Right, right.

[Joelle Grunberg]

Outside of conglomerates, of course.

[Tanner Graham]

And that's just the reality of clothing, construction and fashion. Right. It's real. This is really, really hard to do, and especially do it on your own is the ones that do are like, truly. There's a combination of genius and luck.

[Bradley Carbone]

I think that a lot of the, you know, I think a lot of the smaller brands can learn a lot from some of the established luxury houses and vice versa. I think some of the more established, bigger PH brands are. Aren't as nimble. And, you know, from a marketing perspective, I think there's really opportunities to, you know, get really creative across TikTok and other platforms and, and perhaps the bigger brands aren't quite able to. To do that at the velocity of some of these smaller brands. You know, you look at brands like Jacquemus or, you know, who have very clear, like, connection to the founder and very clear storytelling around that, and I think that really works to their benefit that, you know, so I think there's sort of opportunities for both. And this idea of sort of like juxtaposing the, the timeless and the timely is something that we talk a lot about. And I think, you know, the, the established luxury houses really understand the idea of what it means to build a timeless sort of proposition. Whereas I think some of the younger, more nimble brands are really timely and are able to sort of react quite quickly to certain trends and certain cultural conversations, which makes them, you know, more effective in some ways from a marketing perspective.

[Jill Manoff]

Let's wrap it up with one question. I didn't mean to go like a round robin here, but this is how we're working. But I want to ask kind of what's next? Or kind of. Joelle, you take it how you will. Like what? When will luxury bounce back? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel? What's your take on that?

[Joelle Grunberg]

So first I would a bit challenge the question, right, because again, depending on the brand, some brands are doing really well, right? So it's. They're not waiting for things to bounce back because to be fair, they're riding a nice wave and they're doing well. Right. So I think obviously the environment can get better for sure. And nobody says the contrary. It can only get better from where it has been in the past couple of months, whether it's in China or whether it's in the US or in Europe. It's been hard for sure. But I think, you know, basically the high net worth individual, ultra high net worth individual, has been really shielded, as I said, so that customers still spending and they're spending more on some type of categories and more on some brands than other brands for all the reasons that we said, but they are still spending. So it's not like, you know, it's a true, you know, crisis from that, from that standpoint. And I think, yes, it will probably get better, but if I were the brand, one thing I certainly would not do is be on pause and wait for things to get better because you need to be on offense. And it's not about waiting for the environment to get better that the situation is going to get better for your individual brand. It's by addressing the specific problems that you may have. And again, each brand is going to be different. It may be addressing products, you know, novelty, it may be addressing marketing and storytelling and maybe addressing an aging customer, a pricing problem. You know, each brand has different challenges. If you're not addressing them, a heads up, if you're not, you know, really focused on that, you can always wait for things to get better, but it doesn't mean that your brand will get better. Right.

[Tanner Graham]

I agree. Right. And I think that at the top of the market we have that kind of flight to quality and flight to kind of like the ultra premium brands. Right. Somewhere in the, the middle of the luxury market, we're seeing a flight to value. Right. Where a brand like Totem is succeeding wonderfully because they, they're dipping down into a price point. But also there's still that kind of feel to the product. People pick it up and say, wow, this is a wonderful item and this makes sense for me to purchase. I think that the two things that will kind of pull us out of this moment is so we have flight to quality, flight to value, and then what I would call this kind of flight to newness or curiosity. Right. Which we're seeing as brands come back on the table or as these new creative directors come through. I think the Phoebe Filo example is an early indicator of that. Right. It's kind of her new collection came out and that was the chatter. I think this fall with the Runway shows, we're going to see kind of newfound excitement around these creative directors. And then we're also going to see again, kind of the smaller brands presenting a real challenge. Once the economic picture stabilizes and people can understand or get an accurate picture of their wealth, then they become more confident in spending across the board. Right. Ultra high net worth individuals are just that, they do have the money, but there's still a psychological overhang that they need to feel confident in what they do have. Right. So when things are bouncing around, you have market volatility, you have industry volatility, people just generally pull back. Even if they're still doing expensive things across experiences or even purchases, they're still cautious. Once economics stabilizes, even if it stabilizes at a low level or things are bad, at least you know what you have. When it's in flux, you're guessing. And so you're not making impulse decisions, you're making considered decisions. And seasonal fashion, you could argue can be impulse driven. It's. We just need economic. Well, we don't need. We would like to see economic stabilization to get the industry under control. And then, yeah, when can we see this kind of flight to newness and flight to creativity and that's how we'll know we're into the next phase of the industry.

[Bradley Carbone]

Yeah, I think it's a little bit of like survival of the fittest, meaning those that are sort of using this opportunity to really rethink how they show up, how they build stronger narratives around their brand, how they think about their product proposition. I think those who are using this time effectively to think about all those things, rethink strategies, rethink budgets, rethink the whole landscape, I think will be the ones that really come out on top. And embracing new technologies and figuring out what does AI mean for their business business or how does some new social platform perform for them in a particular way in terms of reaching new audiences, those are the brands that I think will really come out on top. And we experienced this a bit during the pandemic in which we worked with particular clients who weren't able to do photo shoots or weren't able to necessarily do a lot of the typical marketing things that you do during a period of time. However, they use that time to sort of rethink their brand identity, to rethink their brand strategies, try to come up with strategies to reach new customers. And those particular brands are the ones that, you know, I think are doing quite well today. So hopefully we can learn a little bit from, from some of those time periods as well.

[Jill Manoff]

Yes. I'm hearing a lot of comparisons to pandemic times, unfortunately. Do we have to go there? Ah, no, I. I hear it a lot. You guys, this was so valuable. We did it. This is awesome. Thank you all for being here. We coordinated schedules. This was amazing. Thank you.

[Tanner Graham]

Thank you, Jill.

[Joelle Grunberg]

Thanks so much.

[Bradley Carbone]

Thank you, Jill.

[Jill Manoff]

That's all for this episode. Our theme music is by Otis McDonald. If you liked this episode, be sure to share it with someone else you think would. Thanks for listening to the glossy podcast.