B (3:29)

Yeah, I think the biggest obviously shock is the fact that this was a very loved brand by customers. You know, in a market where I think like especially in the underwear space, it's always the same kind of players, you don't really see that much innovation. You don't really see that many new brands starting out. I think people liked Parade's tone, the design language and a lot of that kind of changed under the new ownership. I think as a result, the fans and the community that had supported the brand since its founding essentially kind of got a bit disillusioned because everything had changed about it that they loved. And I think from that it was kind of a clear path as to kind of how the brand would do. This isn't just a kind of branded startup, I guess that's focusing on a Gen Z aesthetic. The products were good. There was a better pricing structure to this compared to maybe some other brands. I think as a result it was meant to be a new kind of direction and a fresh voice in the underwear space. I think as a result, if everything changes, you know, no one's going to want to buy the product because the identity is not the same.

A (4:45)

Yeah, I think you nailed it. A lot of the reaction that I've seen over the last day or two since the announcement has been people saying, there's definitely been some mourning, but also a lot of people saying, like, yeah, well, the brand wasn't. It wasn't what it was. When it first started, they were known for. They used to have all these wheat pasted, like posters all over New York City. And it was underwear ads, but with like women in all different sizes and everything. And very like, I mean, I think a lot of underwear brands and a lot of brands in general, like, talk about inclusivity and size diversity and things like that. And I do think Parade actually, like, at least for a time really did, you know, do that a little differently and better than a lot of other brands. But there was a really good Business Insider story a couple of years ago showing that the way to Lez was running the business internally was not really that. Not very healthy and not really any different from any other, like, really hyper competitive startup. There's a anecdote about announcing who's getting fired, like in the slack, like to everybody. Things like, like, just like, yeah, like cutthroat startup culture that I think did not really jive with the like fun friendly, like, marketing image that they put out there. And I think a lot of companies are run like that. But there definitely was a disconnect. And then like you said, I think the product changed after the sale to Ariella and Associates. I think there was a lot of concern about the decline in quality. There was just a lot of factors. And when the brand finally shut down, I have seen quite a number of reactions that were like, it's sad, but it's kind of like the brand had changed significantly up to now.

B (6:28)

Yeah, And I think the other part is Parade was one of the few brands at the beginning anyway that really kind of went in on this influencer kind of creator ecosystem. I think it was reliant on that and its community for a lot of its success. The fans and the creators were basically the same people. It wasn't really a major differentiation the way you have it now with creator programs and customers on the other side. I think that's the thing that kind of differentiated it between Skims or Cup or some other underwear brands that scaled a little bit differently. The marketing was first for Parade for a very long time. I think a lot of brands have now jumped on that bandwagon and replicated some of those strategies that Parade started.

A (7:17)

Yeah, for sure. One more thing I want to say about Parade and then we can move on is just a couple months ago, maybe six months ago, when we were still in the first place, the first few months of the second Trump administration and tariffs were rolling out and everybody was freaking out. There was some, I'm forgetting what it is now, but some brand had closed their doors and I was talking to an analyst about it. I was like writing something and he said, like, yeah, I think we're going to see a lot of brands closing in the next year. And that has been true. I feel like there's been quite a number, the combination of tariffs and prices increasing and a lot of brands I think that are maybe not already or weren't already in a super healthy position are maybe not going to be able to survive. And I think that's maybe what happened here with Parade. Let's move on though, to our second topic. I want to talk about Lululemon working with the NFL. They're going to be making team branded apparel for all 32 teams in the NFL, which is quite a lot. I have spoken with brands who have done licensing deals with a sports league like the NFL. And if you're making things for all the teams, it's. Somebody described it to me once, it's like you're doing 32 collaborations at once because, like, each team has their own imagery. They have their own fan base that's unique. They have their own kind of customer, their own world that you're getting involved in. So it's not like doing a one off collaboration with, you know, the New York Knicks or something. It's like you're collaborating with a bunch of organizations at once that are all different. But first, interesting thing I want to talk about here is that it's just interesting to see Lulu pushing past yoga. I think they've been leaning really hard into other sports, particularly competitive sports and team sports. They started working with the NHL last year as well. They have sports ambassadors, they have athletes that they've been working with, like Lewis Hamilton from Formula One, Max Homa, who's a golfer. The ads for their NFL collaboration are going to feature Joe Montana. So that's. They have definitely been leaning into like all sorts of sports and particularly competitive sports and not just yoga, which was obviously their thing for a long time. Yeah.

B (9:24)

And I think that this comes at an interesting time when I think athleisure in general is not maybe quite as popular as it was a year or two ago, especially in that kind of women's wear segment. I think what you've outlined there is that a lot of these athletes, and I guess a lot of these moves are maybe slightly more Tailored for the men's market. I'm wondering if Lululemon is trying to make itself a bit more of a go to. Maybe not in terms of athleisure, but at least in terms of gym wear or kind of athlete wear, something that the men's be interested in.

A (9:57)

Yeah. And it is interesting. I think Lululemon has been trying to push their men's business. I just found some data from last year. Their men's business had grown 15%. I think they have been putting some effort into that. And definitely working with like the NFL or sports like that helps kind of with that appeal. It's also interesting to see, I think the NFL is just starting to become more of a fashion like Target in general. I think they want to have what the NBA has or other sports leagues or the wnba, mostly basketball. But the NFL, I think I've said on this podcast in previous years that the NFL and football just doesn't feel like it has as much of a fashion connection or as much as an organic fashion drive as basketball or soccer, other sports. But the NFL has done a ton of partnerships. They have. The most recently, Abercrombie became an official apparel sponsor of the NFL. And that includes dressing some of the wags on the sidelines, the wives and girlfriends, which is. That was just struck in August, I think. And I just talked to Abercrombie the other day and they were saying that that's something they're really excited about. But there's also been the NFL's worked with like Off Season and Kith and Veronica Beard, lots of different fashion brands over the last year. And if I can, one more thing about Off Season, which is a brand started by Kristin Yuscik, which is very focused on sports related apparel. And to my point about when you're collaborating with the whole league, you're collaborating with 32 brands at once. Her first collection with the NFL I think was only five teams. And I think that's probably a smart way to do it, especially for a newer brand like offseason. Maybe Lululemon or Abercrombie. They don't mind as much because they're big and they can handle it. But it is interesting. Not every sports league collaboration has to be every team. That's just one little observation.

B (11:49)

Yeah. And I think that this also points to, I guess, the bigger role that Fanactics has in this kind of sportswear market. In this kind of collaboration. Partnership fanatics is actually the one who's going to be doing the distribution. Lulu usually does things on its own. In its retail and online here. Now it's fanatics and the NFL shop, which will be taking over that distribution. And it's quite a rare thing as well for Lululemon to give up that control over how their product is presented in their stores or in their kind of environment. So I'm wondering if they're kind of testing what that looks like outside of the store environment, which previously was a big thing for them. You know, they like sent their stores, they have like the special kind of layout. It seemed like something that was quite important for them. But I guess with sports, maybe they're willing to be a little bit more flexible and see, you know, what the relationship with fanatics can, could bring. Because I think the idea for this is going to be a long term partnership. I just don't know how, I guess, how interested people will be with Lulu products in the NFL shop.

A (12:58)

Yeah. Can I ask you, not to put you on the spot, but just because, I don't know, off the top of my head, does the Premier League, the English Premier League, do any fashion collaborations that are with the entire league and not just with one team?

B (13:12)

No. So each individual club has got the collabs. It's not something that I think, again with football and especially in England, it has to be very tailored to each club. And there's not one big platform or network that has all the shirts or the kit. There are shops. I think Mike Ashley, who also owns Frasers, recently has done some investment in the U.S. that's something that, you know, he sells in his, in his shops, but it's not something that you would have, you know, as a kind of broader collaborative, kind of creative effort. It's just more of a retail distribution presence.

A (13:51)

Yeah, I was going to say I've mostly seen fashion collaborations with individual teams in the English Premier League. Also, like European soccer has relegation where teams can leave and enter the league, which the US does not have. And that probably makes contractual negotiations for stuff like that probably more complex. Okay, let's move on to our last topic. So two kind of linked phenomena I want to talk about. First is layoffs at some big American companies, particularly Amazon, which happened this week. But second is consumer confidence in the US which is pretty bad. And I think the two are connected, basically. So Amazon announced the layoffs of 14,000 people this week. Most of the jobs are in the corporate sector. And instead Amazon's going to, they're like, we're focusing on AI and that's going to replace all the people that we laid off. But Amazon is just one of like many, many big American companies doing layoffs right now. Target laid off 1800 people. Meta laid off around 600 people in their AI research department. UPS laid off 48,000 people. Just tons and tons and tons of jobs lost in the US recently. And unemployment is already very high. It's at its highest since COVID began. It's like 4.5% or something. And now there's tens of thousands of more people also looking for jobs, which I think is just going to make the whole thing even more kind of difficult. So I want to get to how this connects to consumer confidence, but we can pause there. And like Zofia, what's your take on Amazon in particular, but just in general, all these layoffs across these big organizations?

B (15:29)

Yeah, I mean, I think that it shows again, that, you know, Amazon is anticipating some kinds of changes happening and therefore it's trying to cut some of the corporate workforce. Now, I know that obviously they did hire quite a lot during the pandemic, so obviously that means that, you know, maybe they also were a little bit bloated, especially in the corporate roles, which typically are like the last to be cut. Like typically it's workforce first, then it's kind of middle management, and then you go for the corporate jobs. And this is. I'm not sure if it's the first one, but it's definitely one of the few corporate cuts that they've had since. I think it's, again, it's a very weird time to be, I guess, a massive company like that because of the fact that there's such, I guess, a sentiment that AI is going to optimize all of these roles and make it so that instead of having three people, you might need only one, or else just one supercharged by all of these tools. But the kind of scene with AI is still relatively nascent. Most of the conversations that we both have had, I think have been around kind of how retailers, for example, are grappling to try and understand the tools or else putting out some things that are not particularly, well, kind of created. Most of these things have a kind of curve before they really take off. I don't know if cutting 14,000 corporate jobs is a good idea to do that if those AI kind of gains aren't really there yet.

A (17:05)

Yeah. Which I think is like, definitively they're not there yet for a lot of companies. And I'm. No, I'm not a CEO, but I would maybe make sure I can actually replace people before I fire them because there's Been. I mean, There was that MIT study recently that found, I think it was like 95% of companies that are using AI have yet to see any sort of significant return on it. Whether there's ever a significant return on investment for AI, I think I'm a little more skeptical, but I know that there are people who are less skeptical or who have different view on it. But what I do think is true is that it's not happening yet. So I don't know. I agree with you that it seems a little odd to lay off thousands and thousands of people and hope that the AI will be able to make up for it when I just don't think it will. The other side of this is consumer confidence. So a group called the Conference Board puts out this annual US Consumer sentiment evaluation. And right now it is at a very low point, almost the lowest since COVID Not quite the lowest, but just about the lowest it's been since COVID People in the US have a very, very, very dim view of the economy right now. And that's due to tariffs. It's due to price increases which are due to tariffs. It's due to a lack of jobs. Like I said, people are either being laid off or maybe they're looking for work. And it's just like, impossible. There's a very funny paragraph in this Reuters story about, about the Consumer Sentiment Index which you sent to me, and it says that describes, economists are saying we're in a K shaped consumer sentiment economy. And it says confidence is declining among consumers making an annual income of less than $75,000. But consumers earning more than $200,000 a year are more upbeat. And it's like, oh, people with less money are sad and people with more money are happy. Interesting. Just think that's kind of a funny way to describe it. And I think it's also notable that income inequality and wealth inequality is skyrocketed in the US over the last 40 years, probably. And it's, it's reached definitely a fever pitch at the moment. So I don't know, I just think the description of people with less money have a dim view of the economy. And people who are making a ton of money say it's working great. I'm like, yeah, obviously, because it's working for them. I don't know, I just thought that was funny.

B (19:32)

No, I think that was hilarious. And it kind of. I don't know if it's the same sentiment everywhere, but I think they've noted that in Western Europe and in parts of Asia, the Sentiment is very similar that you have a certain number of people who are under an income bracket of probably around 75,000, maybe slightly less in Europe. Those ones are the ones who are not thinking about their discretionary spend as much or else they're going to be very conservative with how they're approaching it. I think this is a good bellwether of how things might go down from January just because fashion spending typically lags a little bit behind what the consumer sentiment is. I've spoken to a couple of brands who have said that, you know, price increases will only be hitting from January, basically, or after the holiday period. So I'm wondering if, you know, especially for US customers, that will mean a significant decrease in spend. Now, you know, kind of linking it back to the topics that we talked about earlier. You know, the younger kind of cohorts will be hit probably the hardest. You know, when it comes to these price increases, they'll be buying less. And so the younger DTC brands might also see a decrease in customers like brands like Parade. So I think there's definitely more kind of tied into this that I think we're not quite seeing quite yet. But it might indicate a much kind of higher issues, I think, in the fashion world, especially around spending and kind of a reliance on the US customer.

A (21:11)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And last thing I want to say is just the, I think fashion brands in particular, but a lot of brands in the economy right now are very focused on this highest level income consumer to sort of keep them afloat. And I kind of think that those people in the K shaped economy who are on the other side of the K are really kind of keeping the things afloat by continuing to spend. But you can't sustain an entire national economy or really global economy based on that narrow slice. And I really worry about the situation because it's like, who will buy the Amazon products if nobody has a job? You know, like you need like. I think sometimes businesses think of their employees as just like costs and not as like people or as like part of the whole like cycle of the economy where it's like you need somebody to buy the products. Like if you can't fire everyone and then keep selling product because it's like no one will be around to buy it. You know what I mean? So I don't know. I think that like, like you said, related to, to everything we've talked about today. But like with Parade shutting down, I think that businesses need to probably pay closer attention to the precarity of the economic situation and for A lot of people. I mean, I really wonder how it's going to affect holiday spending. Well, we'll talk about that when we get a little closer.

B (22:36)

I think I saw a stat somewhere saying that with the AI bubble, it's the same 10 companies in the US moving money around from each other. I actually think there's a really interesting parallel with that with the fashion market right now, where you have the same subset of luxury customers being pinged around between all of the different brands. At some point, growth, which means an increase in customers has to come from somewhere else. And I think we're waiting for that bubble to pop now.

A (23:03)

Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. You can't just pass the same $10 billion back and forth and call it economic activity. It's got to like. It's got to cycle around.

B (23:13)

Exactly.

A (23:13)

I think that's all the time we have for our news segment this week. Thank you for being here, Zofia. We're gonna take a short break, and when we come back, you will hear a great conversation between me, you, Zofia, and our editor, Jill, talking about the denim market. Okay, welcome back. I am here with our international reporter, Zofia Zvaglinska, and our editor in chief, Joe Manoff. Hello, guys.

B (23:45)

Hi. Hello.

A (23:48)

Thank you both for being here. We are here to discuss the denim industry, and we're kind of building this conversation as, like, the new rules of denim. It's a category that we, the three of us, have talked about a lot, written about a lot. Incredibly competitive, increasingly competitive, I would say. I pulled some data, but Technavio says the denim industry is going to grow by $26 billion in the US in the next four years. There are lots of brands all kind of active in the space, big campaigns, a lot of changes in the way people shop for denim. It's also perennially popular as a category. And I just thought it would be good to kind of go through and talk about what we're seeing in the denim space and break down some of the. The new rules of denim. The way I want to structure this conversation is we're going to talk about some of the big trends in denim. We're going to talk about the different customers for denim, the different shopper categories and profiles. And then lastly, we're going to talk about some of the brands, and we kind of have broken down some of the big denim brands into various categories. And then at the end, we'll kind of share some of our concluding thoughts and, you know, try to help you navigate this. This complicated space of, of denim. So I thought we'd just start with, like, the trends. I mean, I think there's. There's specific trends in terms of product. Like, obviously skinny jeans are out and wider, like jeans are in. But I also think there's trends in terms of just the way people shop. So I don't know, I'll throw it over to you guys. What are some things you see happening in denim?

B (25:21)

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot happening. Like, as you see, there's so much diversification in terms of the amount of styles out there. I don't think there's ever been another time in fashion or in the denim space when everyone's going for different things. And as a result, you know, it means that there's a lot more choice. So everything from, you know, skinny to barrel legs to wide leg, western to rhinestone, butterfly covered denim, like, all of that is happening at the same time, and it's all for different customer groups. So that's what I'm seeing. And, you know, based on some of the conversations I've had with execs at, you know, brands like American Eagle, madewell, you know, those are brands that have been leaning into the gamut of different denim styles. It's not just one style that is popular for them. You. Even though I think they've been skewing a little bit more wide leg or, you know, personalized customized jeans, most of them are running with multiple styles across, you know, the whole brand.

A (26:22)

Yeah. And I think this is also a change in how people shop too. I recently spoke with Corey Robinson, who's the chief product officer at Abercrombie and Fitch brand with a big denim business. And we'll talk about that more later. That was one of the things he said is like, obviously there's more. More diversity of styles across the industry and across, like, customers. But he was also saying within one customer's closet, it used to be very common for people to kind of find one fit of denim that they liked and just buy, you know, that same pair in different colors and washes and things like that. Now he said, like, the same customer might have narrower jeans and wider leg jeans and low rise jeans and higher and, like, have it all and, like, switch between them much more frequently and easily than they used to. So I think you're right, Sophie. It's happening across the category and within brands, but also within individual customers, like shopping habits. They're not just sticking to one. And we'll talk more about customer profiles But I think that from what he said, it sounds like that's pretty common across different customers and demographics.

B (27:25)

Yeah.

C (27:25)

And a lot of the conversations being fueled on social media, like there's some hotly debated about whether high waist or low waste is going to be in over the next couple of years or again, the skinny versus wide debate is of course the one that's most out there. But it's really like what are we debating? Like you said, anything goes between washes and cuts and rises. I found this interesting stat which Danny, you were talking about the booming rise in denim sales over the next couple of years, which to me and what's happening now, it shows like the denim industry really rose to a challenge really fast because there was a great story back from March 2024 that I found in the Sourcing Journal and it was talking about the fact that obviously denim sales declined sharply during the pandemic and then boomed in 21 22, 2021, 2022. But then in 2023 it showed that there was a 5% drop in denim sales and it was calling for like a lack, calling for new diversification and innovation in denim and that there was this kind of lackluster interest in denim and so, and lack of newness. And so now it's like new, new, new, new, new. It happened so fast. And so definitely it's like what came first, the customer demand or like is the the denim industry driving this, like seeing the need. But definitely interesting to watch something that I saw too, which I think is a good indicator of what's resonating now. I went up to some of the multi brand retailers that are really, I would say like taste makers for, for like in the luxury industry. We know Mytheresa is doing very well and when I looked at their denim out of their 878 styles, the ones that are kind of MO they bought into the most are high waisted, 460 out of the 878 are high waisted and 423 out of the 878 are wide. And similar trends on revolve for a more affordable denim brand or more trendy or contemporary that most of their styles out of the thousand plus are either higher. Wait, wait, what was it? High waisted, 1530 of them or flared and wide leg. So those two trends really resonated about across both. So there are trends among the many styles is what I'm saying.

A (29:51)

Yeah, no, it's true. And there's lots of visual diversification. I mean we mentioned I'm seeing more Denim with rhinestones and prints and patterns and crazy stuff added to it, which I think connects to what you were saying, Jill. There was this period of a lack of newness, a lack of interest. You'd go to a store and it's like we have three fits and we have three variations of the same dark wash and not as much interest. I'm going to reference this a bunch, but when I went to. I went to Abercrombie event recently, when I spoke with Corey Robinson, they had. This was for a collaboration they're doing. They had jeans with rhinestones and, like, metal kind of like decorations all up and down the leg. They had just, I don't know, a lot more interesting kind of stuff.

B (30:36)

Yeah. It seems like there's been, I think, a bigger draw towards making jeans that are a little bit more unique. I think denim is one of those areas where no one really wants to be wearing exactly the same thing. I think that's also why you've seen, like, the interest in vintage denim or selvage. I think most people don't want to have exactly the same pair. And I think as a result, bigger retailers are now thinking about that too, and offering those kind of customizations that maybe would have been seen as a little bit uncool. Maybe in 2015, you would have worn a similar pair to what everyone else is wearing. And even though everyone has a wide leg silhouette now, it's all slightly different. And I think they want to be slightly different from their competitors as well.

C (31:23)

Yeah. On that note, it. There were some. When I was researching, there were some kind of similarities between what's happening in denim and almost the quiet luxury conversation, actually, because, you know, there are some indicators of brand, even though all of these styles are so very similar. But, you know, one style of brand that that's really doing well in, in denim on the luxury side is Kate. They're known for their black button. I think that it still. Still is true. It definitely was early on in their. In their denim collection. And then, you know, still here does a little stitched sh. That's a little bit more of an affordable brand. Obviously, the little red tab on Levi's, but it's like there are indicators of what you're wearing. There's certain styles that have a cool factor. A lot of the luxury shoppers that I looked into, like Sophia, Richie, Grange. Grange. Richie, whatever her name is, and also Morgan Stewart, like, they wear Levi's 501 or Levi's jeans all the time. And meanwhile, they're wearing Hermes. And I Don't know Chanel and all the other things. So it's interesting. It's that, like, there's a question of what, what is. What has the cool factor. What is aspirational? I'm seeing a lot of what is aspirational is like the hard to find or hard to fit vintage styles that fit you great, they're worn in. That's something that people look for, but it's not necessarily something you can find at a thrift store really easily.

A (32:55)

We'll talk about this brand more later when we get into a brand discussion. But I mean, True Religion also has that very distinct horseshoe stitching on the back. That's another one where it's like, when you're wearing them, it's like, no, it's notable what brand you're wearing. It's not like it doesn't just disappear into the background. What do you guys think about sort of the trend cycle of denim? Because I've had a few conversations. I spoke with Emma Greed of many brands, but specifically for this conversation, Good American, which is a denim brand, and she talked about how the trend cycle for denim is a little slower than maybe for other categories that people tend to. Even as we're talking about diversification, they do tend to, like, hang on to styles they like maybe a little bit longer and not quite as rapid fire as, like, the TikTok era has made other categories. She said that they're still selling a good amount of skinny and straight jeans, even as all these other styles are. Are becoming common. So I don't know, does that something you guys observe as well?

B (33:50)

Yeah, definitely. I think that there's a lot of customers who end up, you know, repurchasing jeans when they need them, and then there's the ones who kind of lean into those trends. And I think that that's more. That's probably why we're seeing a lot more of these styles now, is because also retailers want to tempt people into buying more pairs of jeans than they may necessarily need, which is a sustainability measure in itself. And I think something that we can discuss on a different podcast. But it seems like buying multiple pairs is one of those ways to get customers to do that is by offering them different styles.

C (34:26)

Yep. And like you said, things are moving slow, but things are moving. So, like, the data shows that skinny styles are slowing or, you know, declining in sales while the wide styles are growing tick, tick, tick. But like, yeah, people buy and spend a little more on denim and they keep them a little longer, and cost per wear is Very low. So it's like you have them, you're fine with them. You're not necessarily looking for something more to kind of spruce up your. It's like it's a statement piece. You're just wearing them. Php everyone wears them.

A (34:56)

Yeah. Let's move on to our second sort of like super topic here. I want to talk about the, the who are the different customers for denim? A big one I think to discuss is the young Gen Z, gen Alpha, like teen customer. Because I think that's what's driving a lot of the, the shift. And I think denim in general is like very generational. Like there's been a lot of almost like the talk about like millennials and their skinny jeans. Gen Z and their wide jeans is like, it becomes like a symbol divide, you know, like Gen Z People posting TikToks, like wearing skinny jeans and they're like, look, I'm a millennial. Like just it like it becomes this kind of like a symbol for how different the generations are because it's like so like millennials are so stuck in their skinny jeans or whatever. But I do think that that younger customer is, is driving, I think a lot of that like diversification. I think they're, from what I've seen, they are at the same time they're like both more open to trying different styles and wearing lots of different types of jeans. But then also weirdly they're like into a lot of the same brands that were popular back then. I think they have helped revive a lot of the Y2K brands that we're going to talk about. Like Abercrombie, which is like, was popular when I was a teenager and I'm, I think a young, a young millennial or middle millennial or something. But then those same brands are very popular with like a younger Gen Z customer now. And those brands absolutely want to cultivate that young audience. So I think the younger shopper maybe has less purchasing power and less money, but it has a lot of like cultural power. And we can talk about that later as well. But I think people are influenced by like 16 year olds on TikTok. So the brands really want to target this customer.

C (36:42)

Yeah. Do you think more than any other demo. To me it reads as they shop comfort first or trend first. So like you can picture them in their drawstring baggy jeans, but you can also picture them wearing Britney Spears down to their below their belly button cut, low waisted jeans. So I trend forward.

A (37:04)

Yeah, I definitely think so.

B (37:07)

I think that a lot of that is Also just driven in that interest in nostalgia. You mentioned the kind of Y2K aspect, and obviously Gen Z is the, I would say the main target group right now who's shopping resale and who's interested in thrifting and kind of thrifting heavy as well. So doing a lot of research figuring out kind of what's cool or what they think is interesting. And I think it's that mix between the mass brands or ones that were popular in that Y2K era. So AE, Abercrombie, you know, even a gold or thrifted Levi's, and then the kind of resale aspect of denim as well. So customizing pairs that they're finding in outlets, for example, that's something I think is very Gen Z. And I think if we had a celebrity icon for this age group, I would say it's Olivia Rodrigo because she wears a lot of vintage styles, but then does some which are contemporary as well.

A (38:04)

Yeah, I think that's a great illustrative example of that demo. What are some other denim customer groups we can focus on?

B (38:15)

Yeah, so you have like the 30 to 40 year old elevated buyer, which I am now in that category. Congratulations. Thank you. Customer wants, you know, polish, but without losing that comfort. I think a lot of people still have focused on comfort after the pandemic. It's still, you know, a different style of jean to maybe what it was. I think innovation in the denim space has a lot to do with it, with the type of waistbands. You have the like stretch composition, even like the way the denim falls, like a lot of them are a lot thinner. I think that they used to be. And I think the 30 to 40 year old customer now kind of wants to have denim as part of this like minimalist wardrobe. So like what you mentioned, Jill, like Kate Frame, you know, even La jaunt. So I think that there's people who have been coming out of like post pandemic work and want something a little bit more structured that they can wear like across outfits. And I think it's also someone who doesn't mind spending a little bit more, but also still likes discounts, so they'll spend spend $400 on jeans. But they do expect craftsmanship and maybe a story to go with that. A lot of these contemporary brands that go after this customer, they're looking for sustainability stories as well. So things that maybe have a little bit of background or they can kind of go into. So anything like frame or totem. Both of those go into Japanese fabrics or subtle washes that's something that, that I think exemplifies the 30 to 40 year old kind of buyer. I don't know. She really fits into the age group. I feel like it's the style of Gwyneth Paltrow. I'm not sure if it's someone who's kind of wearing it now.

A (39:57)

Yeah, that's a good one though. But I think you're right. That age group might spend several hundred dollars on a pair of jeans as opposed to the gen Z, like $60 on a pair of jeans or something. But maybe not like Balenciaga, you know, four digit, like spend on a pair of jeans.

C (40:13)

There's so many brands in that range. When I was looking, I was doing research and like you said, some have really stood out. Like the, I say a Goldie, a gold Silver Lake.

A (40:22)

I think it's a Goldie.

B (40:23)

Yeah.

C (40:24)

Mother. And like even like Anina Bing makes great jeans. And there's a great brand out there that I think all their denims are around 200 called the pistola. Anyway, I feel like there's some are standing out, like you said, differentiating via sustainability or affordability, but still kind of has the same, the same fit and the same details. And some of these old, these ones that have been around forever are still holding on like ag and rag and bone seven for all mankind, all of those, which is good to see.

A (40:54)

Yeah. I also wanted to mention the, the plus customer, which I think is a customer that has been burned quite a bit over the years by denim brands. I don't know if you guys remember several years ago Old Navy, like went super hard on like size inclusivity and they were going to. And Old Navy is a big denim brand. They're not only denim, but they do a lot of denim sales. And then they ended up kind of pulling back on that. And I think a lot of people were not happy about that. But I think the plus customer because like the thing I hear in a lot of my conversations about plus size fashion is like those customers I do think tend to be more loyal because it's like so it can be really hard to find clothes that fit well and are made well and are not sectioned off in some different part of the mall or something. So that's I think an important customer in terms of loyalty.

C (41:48)

Speaking of, I was just on a call with several people right before this and I was like, I'm going into a podcast. We're talking about denim. What's your go to brand? And it was women of all shapes and sizes. And multiple said Good American, which we know that they do a great job with inclusive sizing. And some specifically called out, like Khloe Kardashian as being their denim icon. And just knowing that and then they would tie that to Good American, which is interesting.

A (42:15)

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because I had it in my notes and I forgot to say it, but Good American is definitely probably one of the more bigger mainstream denim brands that is like openly, directly appealing to this customer.

B (42:29)

I was just going to mention madewell as well in that range just because they do have a great kind of plus side range. I think they really kind of get that balance right between denim styles that are maybe more kind of evergreen and then ones which are a little bit more trendy. So for autumn, winter, they have a bunch of corduroy type kind of trousers or jeans. And I think that that's something that is a little bit more unique and allows, I think, you know, those customers who typically would go for something very standard to try something new. I think it's also really interesting right now to be talking about, you know, plus size ranges with denim, considering, like the Ozempic conversation and how that's, you know, maybe affecting people in terms of the styles that they go for. I think this is also why so many people are trying different types of clothes now, is because they're also able to. I think it gives them more opportunity to test new things if they feel more confident with what they're wearing.

C (43:25)

Yes, man. For years, madewell really, really was the it go to denim brand. And we know the creative director of madewell went to Alex Mille. And I'm seeing Alex Mille pop up on more of these sites when they're talking denim guides and brands to try, which is interesting to see. Another demo we wanted to talk about was just the business professional, like people buying jeans to wear to work. They're allowed to, I guess, dress business casual. What brands are they going for? I mean, it's kind of an old school take on it, but I still see that kind of the recommendation or the safe bet for going to work is kind of the clean, inky styles, no embellishment, no rips and tears. And some brands that stood out that are doing that and that are often recommended are like Aritzia and Favorite Daughter and Cause and Banana Republic and J. Crew and Burberry. Anyway, there are a lot of them and somebody that I kind of thought would be like our. Our icon for wearing jeans to work, and that does it really well. Speaking of good American. But Emma Greed is this kind of budding style icon. Like she tape, she records herself walking out of the elevator to work every day. And I feel like she has a little bit more flexibility in terms of what she wears working for a denim brand. But she does deviate from that very clean style. And maybe she'll wear a barrel leg one day and wear a skinny leg with some great boots another day. But yeah, that's definitely somebody people can turn to for, for advice or for, for direction.

A (44:53)

Lastly, we've touched on a bunch of brands already and their connection to trends and to the customer. But I wanted to take a few minutes to kind of break down some of the brands we see as like being very prominent and into sort of categories. And the first one I want to talk about is, I have just written down is like the OGs. This is brands that are like, have. Have been very strongly associated with denim and very dominant in the category and remain so to this day. I think Levi's is, is a great example. Like Levi's is the denim brand. There's lots of others too, but they have been a major player in denim for a very long time. And they've like been, you know, doing super well recently with like the, the boom in denim sales. Like in their last quarter their sales were up like 7% beating analysts expectations and their own expectations. They've been doing well. But there's other brands we mentioned, Old Navy and Gap, there's Wranglers. Ralph Lauren has a great denim business. All of these brands like have been very popular in denim and continue to be and have just been like there the entire time. And we'll talk about some brands that maybe were less popular and came back and everything. But some of these ones I think are just like, have always been, you know, at the top of the pyramid.

B (46:04)

I think some of that is just down to as well, like how linked like the denim category is with like trust and like customer trust. Like you have so many brands out there right now and not all of them are kind of putting out quality product. So if you do have, you know, a heritage brand, let's say Levi's or Ralph Lauren, like those are brands that people trust. And as a result I think that, you know, that means that they'll be the go tos for denim. And even with so much diversification, diversification and so many different brands out there right now, I think that value and I guess the longevity part, you know, you see this on, on Instagram and in TikToks all the time, is that, you know, Levi's last, like, that's why they are the ones which are thrifted is because they keep kind of popping up in places because they, you know, been passed down through like five different people over the course of their life and they still do like that durability conversation is really important when you're talking about these kind of like OG brands.

A (47:01)

Yeah. And I think they're also just a lot of times like the default, like even the most fashion illiterate person, if you ask them to name a denim brand, could probably come up with Levi's. Jo, do you have any thoughts on this category? Should we talk about another?

C (47:13)

No, I'm game with all the other brands you mentioned. I so agree, agree that it's about trust. And once you like, it's almost like once you find a brand that, you know, fits, nobody wants to be trying on denim. It's like, oh, the swimsuit category, it's like the hardest to find something that fits you like a glove. So I just think going back again and again just makes sense.

A (47:32)

Yeah. The other big category I want to talk about is these kind of again, we've touched on these already, but these like Y2K sort of mall brands that I think have had a serious comeback in the last couple years. Abercrombie is a big one. American Eagle has a huge denim business. We also talked about True Religion. They have like, you know, True Religion is on their way to a billion dollars in sales. Like, every time I talk to them, they're getting closer and closer. They're at like over, I think over half a billion in sales at the moment. And they do big flashy marketing campaigns, as has American Eagle, the Sydney Sweeney campaign, which we've talked about on the podcast. So these brands have had a real resurgence. Abercrombie, I think, had like one of the best performing, like stocks on the US Stock market like a year or two ago. And they have like totally rebranded themselves Abercrombie, I mean, and shed a lot of whatever weird baggage they may have had from that heyday in like the late 2000s, early 2010s. And now they're like really popular with Gen Z again. So a lot of these Y2K mall brands have had a strong resurgence and are particularly with denim.

B (48:37)

Yeah. And I think a lot of that is also just down to the way that they're marketing these denim launches. You know, I think that the American Eagle, Sydney Sweeney one, it was still kind of limited collaboration. Like her launch or her denim piece is only one of A few. It's not part of the main range, but it is something that really brought, I guess, the brand up to a different kind of cultural wavelength. I think these big campaigns that you used to see with denim, that would kind of be emblematic. I think this is kind of the same area that we're in right now where you see American Eagle and Sydney Sweeney or True Religion and Ciara. Those are the kinds of campaigns that are really breaking through right now, which is a big achievement, I think, considering, I guess, how much we're seeing on social media, especially with all of these different launches.

C (49:28)

I just want to ask, where are the Apple Bottom jeans? Yeah, they're jeans. Bag.

A (49:35)

Yeah.

C (49:35)

Or like baby fat. I think they had jeans.

A (49:37)

Yeah. Well, also one more thing about this category is like, just because I just wrote about this, so it's like top of mind. But both True Religion and Abercrombie did these Wags campaign recently, like working with women connected to sports. I think they both, like, Abercrombie is an official partner of the NFL. True Religion is working with NBA players all the time. These brands are also pretty in touch with sports, which is obviously huge in fashion right now. So that's just another.

C (50:04)

Big budgets.

A (50:05)

Yeah, they got big budgets, exactly.

C (50:08)

Denim wars is right. Who can get out there the most? Another category we wanted to talk about is kind of the 2000 and tens era. Direct to consumer brands. We already talked about Madewell pretty much, but also wanted to shout out Reformation, obviously. Everlane, again, known for sustainability, known for transparency, different things across them, but they've definitely held true. Held on. Not really a 2010s brand, I don't believe. But also, I just wanted to say a lot of these brands that we're talking about, they're really just known for great basics, which that's what denim is. And you know, Uniqlo has great jeans or jeans that people go to. I was just seeing a lot of buzz around the JW Anderson and Uniqlo denim style. I don't know the new collab that's out. And they're a great go to. So great basics. Buck Mason for men. So, yeah, direct to consumer brands, for sure.

A (51:04)

Yeah. And a lot of, like the 2010s DTC era brands, not specific to denim, have not all survived and have not all made a great, you know, transition into the modern era. Like, we have talked a few times about Allbirds, which is not denim, they're shoes, but like of the same kind of era and school as some of these brands. And they have had A really hard time the last couple of years. So not every brand from that era has kind of made it through. And denim, I think as a basic, like you said and we mentioned, is an always popular category, feels like a safe place for them to be. What other categories of brands can we talk about?

B (51:42)

I think there's also that salvage and Japanese influence or vintage styles that has always been this kind of counterculture of connoisseur denim. You have the people who are main brand waters and then the people who try and find all of the niche stuff. And it's the same with denim. You have Japanese mills like Kaihara or Karori Momotaro. All of those ones are very popular. Again, I think think that's also in part with the fact that the Japanese shopping scene was very popular this past year as Japan's been a massive tourist destination. I think as a result there's been more visibility into those kind of denim supply chains. You see a lot of collaborations now as well with Japanese mills. So you have main brands also looking at collaborations with these kind of original producers of denim which are done in the old fashioned way with proper kind of indicators, go dyeing and all of the different kind of knitting techniques. And I think that that's something that is really popular with like a specific subset of denim.

C (52:50)

Yeah, connoisseurs, the brands that are like very attached to or well known for that style. Like I hear a lot with APC and Nudie but it'll be interesting to see how that holds up because I just for on the modern retail side, for our tariffs weekly newsletter, I was talking to somebody that the founder of this multi brand retailer called Standard and Strange I believe and they only sell basically 99% I believe maybe 100 brands that from Japan clothing made in Japan. And I mean like the tariff situation is really hurting them bad. It's like something has to change or we're not going to survive. He just. Within the last week I got, I got word that he has moved to Japan to create a relationship with the manufacturers and make a go of it and try to do what he can. But yeah, that's a really troubled area at the moment.

B (53:45)

Yeah.

A (53:46)

Something else I wanted to say about that. Selvage and Japanese denim that's super high quality. We haven't really touched at all on the men's side of this specifically. And a moment from a couple years ago that I wanted to call out, I wrote about it at the time the TV show the Bear came out with Jeremy Allen White and it was like a Big, like, you know, the first season was a huge hit. And there's a scene in the first one of the first few episodes where he, like, needs to buy a bunch of beef and in order to afford it, he like, goes in his closet and sells a bunch of, like, raw Japanese, like, selvedge denim. And like, everyone I know who is like a menswear, like, denim head was like, oh, shit. Like, this show is like, very in tune with, like, denim head enthusiast. And I feel like there was a brief moment he also in that show wears these super high quality Japanese T shirts that are made with the loop mill process or whatever. And I think that show definitely had an impact on getting more men into this enthusiast denim head kind of world. I don't have data to support this. I couldn't find anything definitive, but I feel like this is a category that like, a certain type of, like, menswear enthusiast is very into.

C (55:01)

They're so passionate and there's a lot of, like, again, heated discussion about, like, you never wash them or do you, like, ever? Or, like, did you wash them? Like, how many? Oh, God, yeah.

A (55:12)

Yeah. It's a very intense category, but I'm glad we called that one out. Any other denim brand categories before we come to our conclusion here? We touched on, like, luxury designer a little bit. Kate, you mentioned Jill YSL does denim. But we already kind of discussed. So. Okay, so let's conclude here with just a couple of, like, the new rules of denim I want to talk about and just sort of like, sum up what we've been talking about. I think in some of our discussions before this recording, we talked about denim kind of expanding horizontally. There's a lot of brands, as we have discussed, that are all kind of viable in the space. There's a lot of styles that are viably in at once. It's not like one single style dominating. I think certainly some are more popular than others, but it just feels like a very diverse category at the moment. That's what I would say is one of the big takeaways. What about you guys?

B (56:12)

Yeah, I agree. I think it's that fit kind of pluralism, and for me, I think it's all about kind of fabrication now. It's the thing that kind of matters more because of the whole kind of craftsmanship conversation happening and luxury and I guess the amount of knowledge that people are able to get through social channels now by everyone talking about how denim is created or what makes a good pair of jeans, that I think is really important. So it's that kind of fabrication that I think is now defining what good denim looks like. And then if you're not leaning into that, you will be in five years. Once that, you know, cheaper pairs wears out.

C (56:53)

Right on. And we didn't really talk about it much, but I feel like we're in this whole, we're in a, I don't know, transformative time for the industry. There's a lot of change happening in the LA denim world where a lot of manufacturing is happening and a lot happening with the workforce there. And I don't know. And there are families, families that are multi. Multiple brands have, have emerged from these kind of, kind of denim leaders, leader families. So anyway, there's a lot happening there. I feel like, anyway, a state of change right now in terms of the rules. I think anything goes, like we've been saying, I think where there are really rules or like more so rules and like have has to do with how we're styling them. Like back in the day. So old school people would be like, you know, don't wear baggy bottom with a baggy top. Like, one has to be tight, one has to be. I think those old rules are out the door. But I do feel like, you know, there's a lot of conversation around the right shoe to wear with your denim. Like a kitten heel or a little like a sling back will look good with like a straight leg. And there's a lot of talk when those ballet sneakers came out, like, they don't look good with my baggy jeans. Like, what are people wearing with this? So I, I did look before we came onto this call. Like, Alison Borenstein has a lot to say about, about how to style denim and like, when you want to dress it up, definitely wear a belt and things like that. So I do think it's more around the styling than the style of the jean. And there are rules, but it is personal style. It's a number one, we know Gen Z champions that prioritizes that and doesn't want to look like everyone else.

A (58:28)

Yes, absolutely. One more thing I want to say is on the marketing side and the way brands kind of advertise denim, I think there's. And this maybe goes beyond denim too. I feel like there's a permeation of those different customer categories we were talking about. I think there is, you know, 45 year olds who are being influenced by a 16 year old on TikTok. And like, I think some of those like trends and marketing strategies kind of go across age groups and demographics in a way that maybe they didn't used to. You don't necessarily need to, you know, have a brand ambassador who's 18 years old in order to target the 18 year old demographic. Like maybe that's true beyond denim too, but I definitely see that in just in a lot of the campaigns and the way these brands are marketed.

B (59:11)

Effy. Yeah. And I think we'll be seeing that more like internationally as well. You know, like K pop icons wearing certain styles of jeans, influencers, customers in America. And I think we've seen that with some of the kind of collaborations or campaigns with like Gap and Catseye, like those kind of things really are a new feature for denim. And I think something that we should be watching a little bit more as this kind of becomes the safe harbor, I guess, category for a lot of retailers to go to with stable cotton prices and a relatively low kind of risk for brands as well.

C (59:49)

And judging from the latest fashion month I mentioned to you guys, Jonathan Simkai says shredded denim. Shredded, shredded to the nth degree is coming back for spring. So anyway, I think we can expect more embellishment, more interest in terms of the. The style.

A (60:06)

Yes, for sure. Well, I think that's all the time we have for this discussion, but thank you both for joining. This was a great conversation.

B (60:13)

Thank you, thank you.

A (60:20)

And thank you for listening to the Glossy Podcast. Don't forget to give us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, wherever you listen to this, because that helps us out so much. And don't forget to subscribe to the Glossy Podcast to hear interviews with industry insiders and we can review segments where we break down the news. The new episodes come out every Friday. Until the next time. Thanks for listening.