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The Glossy Podcast
What brands need to know about digital product passports — plus, the CFDA bans fur and Dario Vitale exits Versace
00:57:44
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- [00:05]
A
Hello and welcome back to the Glossy Podcast. I'm your host, senior fashion reporter Danny Parisi, and I'm here with our international reporter, Zofia Zviglinska. Hello, Zofia, how are you doing?
- [00:15]
B
Hi. Yeah, lovely to be on again. It's been a busy week.
- [00:18]
A
It's been busy for all of us. We were just talking about how it's the last couple weeks of the year. We are working on several different projects and we've got podcasts and coverage and all sorts of other things. So I will definitely be looking forward to a little break and I hope all of our listeners get a nice holiday break coming up soon too. But before that, we have a couple of things to talk about. This week we're going to be talking about the CFDA officially banning fur from future New York Fashion Week calendars. We'll talk a little bit about that. On somewhat of a related note, in the uk, the Advertising Standards Authority banned several ads from Nike, Superdry and Lacoste over sustainability claims that they said were misleading or ambiguous. Then we will talk about the closing of the Prada Versace deal, which happened this week, and what we might expect from Versace in the future. We also have two other things to talk about later in the episode. Zofia, you had a great discussion about digital passports, which is something that's a term that's been bubbling up in fashion for a little bit. Can you give us a very quick preview of what you talked about?
- [01:17]
B
Yeah, I was on with Leanne Elliot Young, who's the co founder of the Institute of Digital Fashion, They've been taking care of brands getting into the digital product passport kind of environment. Obviously there's regulation that's, that's going to be affecting brands from 2027 and a lot of them might end up being caught wrong footed if they're not setting up their data correctly. So, got into what a digital product passport is, kind of how it works and what opportunities there are for brands within that. So you can have a good kind of preparation going into next year on what to expect and how to structure all of those different data bits. It's a great discussion.
- [01:57]
A
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And like I said, that'll be the second half of the episode. But before that and before we get into the news, I wanted to hear just very quickly from you, you went to the Fashion Awards in London this week. I loved your dress, by the way. I saw on Instagram, it looked very glamorous. Can you give us a little report of Anything interesting you saw or what did you think of the event?
- [02:18]
B
Yeah. So the Fashion Awards happen on the first Monday of December every year, and they're basically a celebration and recognition of what's happening that year. What's been most interesting, I think last year was particularly focused on young design as people making it out of COVID successfully. But also there was a lot of kind of influencer and creator focus. This year it kind of shifted more towards luxury. We had the actor Colwyn Domingo playing host. There was a lot of cool guests, including Sharon Stone, Cate Blanchett, Little Sims. Ray performed on stage, which was amazing. I loved her stuff. And the fact that she always performs barefoot is fascinating to me. And then obviously you have the awards themselves. So the fact that the Fashion Awards are based in London means that there's a lot of recognition going towards British designers, costume designers, which is a new prize that was introduced this year that went to the costume designer of Frankenstein. There's also awards for newcomers, basically, as well as models and British designers, too. So we had Sarah Burton, who won the British womenswear Designer of the Year, John Jonathan Anderson, who won Designer of the Year for the third consecutive year, which I think deserves its own discussion, and Anokyai, winning Model of the Year, which is very well deserved. And I think a lot of people were thinking she was going to win last year, so I'm glad that that kind of came through. And it's always just a great kind of occasion for everyone in the industry to get together. There's a little journalist box that we get to be a part of, which is lovely. And, yeah, it's a very nice kind of event to showcase what's going on in the. And what's kind of being recognized. Brunello Cucinelli got Exceeding Excellence Award, I believe.
- [04:14]
A
Yeah, well, it sounds like it was a great event. I also just wanted to quickly mention I loved Frankenstein and there was some great fashion in that movie. If anyone listening has not seen it yet. Some really great costuming in that movie. Let's talk about fur at the cfda. So the CFDA announced this week that they would officially be banning fur at future New York Fashion Weeks. We've discussed before, New York Fashion Week is a little bit fragmented, so really this only applies to brands who are showing on the official CFDA calendar, and there's plenty of brands that don't, so they don't have to abide by that. But anyone that does want to be on the official CFDA calendar, no more fur. The CFDA has said there's already not a lot of fur being shown on their official calendar anyway, so it's a little bit more of a formality, like just the next step. And obviously, fur has been generally in decline, I think, in fashion over the last several years. But actually last season, our editor, Jo Manoff, noted that she felt like there was an uptick in fur. I don't think we were able to track down any, like, hard data showing that. But purely anecdotally, and going to a lot of shows, it did feel like there was a little bit more than usual. Still not a ton, but I thought that was interesting, like a kind of a reversing of that trend. And then this season, they. They're saying, for the future, no more fur. So, as I said, it doesn't apply to every single brand that's showing in New York in September. But if you want to be on the calendar, it does. What are your thoughts on that decision?
- [05:39]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it's one that's been a long time coming. Obviously, a lot of European fashion weeks have already kind of banned fur, whether that's Copenhagen or uk. The two kind of big Star wars that are still allowing fur are obviously Paris and Milan. I think that's in part based on the fact that there's a lot of brands that have almost made their whole brand kind of identity around fur. I mean, Fendi was typically.
- [06:06]
A fur brand, and as a result, I think it might be a little bit harder to get rid of fur on these kind of older fashion weeks. I think it's a good move and hopefully enough pressure that one of these two, if not both of them, end up banning fur as well. The kind of important thing here to note is that generally the fur trade is still getting smaller. You know, the Eastern European countries are the ones that typically have been producing it in the past. So I think Russia is still the main producer of fur, and I don't think that's going to be going away anytime soon. But as we were talking about before the episode, Poland, which is the second or third biggest producer of fur, is now banning fur as well. So, again, that makes for a much more limited quantity of new furs being produced. Now, whether that means that, you know, brands will be using fur alternatives, so things like Biofluff or Savion, I believe, are brands that are kind of experimenting with new formats for furless fur, essentially, that's something that I think is also going to be growing. And we've seen Designers like Stella McCartney putting out collections with these kind of fur alternatives, and they look quite good now. I think that they're an adequate kind of replacement for something that was a very kind of cruel practice and doesn't really deserve to still be around.
- [07:27]
A
Yeah, no, I think you're 100% right and you make a good point. Raising some of the other institutions in fashion that have already banned for Copenhagen, Berlin, London Fashion Week. Also several big magazines, I believe Vogue and Vanity Fair have an editorial policy not to highlight for Glamour, I think as well, has a similar policy. So it's definitely been in decline for a while. I was thinking about the brands in New York specifically and who this might affect. Like you said, I definitely think it's more common in maybe French or Italian brands. But I was thinking about the brands who usually show on the CFDA calendar. There's a few sort of like, mainstays who are often there, but a lot of times it's a great place for emerging American brands. And I'm imagining if you're a junior brand and you kind of want to, you're seeking a spot on the official calendar. It's a little bit more incentive to not go down the path of fur at all, you know, and if you're not doing it in your first couple of collections and you're not doing it in your New York Fashion Week debut, you're probably less likely to do it down the road as well. So Stephen Kolb, who's the CEO of the cfda, said that part of the decision was kind of orienting American fashion in this same direction as this larger global trend of moving away from fur and just making sure that New York fashion and American fashion brands are all kind of like heading in that same kind of right direction. So I think there's probably there will be some long term subtle effects on the direction of American fashion and its relationship with fur.
- [09:00]
B
Yeah, I agree. And it's not something that I think a lot of young customers look for nowadays. I don't think you see many people in their 20s walking around in furs. I think the fact that in general the planet's getting warmer, the necessities for a fur also kind of decrease. So hopefully, you know, with these kinds of bans, that doesn't mean that the plastic fur will increase, but the designers will make a conscious attempt to just get rid of fur on the catwalks and have a better influence on the customers as a result.
- [09:36]
A
I have another thought on this, but I'm actually going to wait to say it until after we talk about our next topic, because it's sort of related. So I'm just saying this to remind myself to come back to this later. The second thing I wanted to talk about is the Advertising Standards Authority in the UK announced they had banned several advertisements this week from Nike, Super Dry and Lacoste specifically. And those ads were criticized or banned for using misleading terminology around sustainability. Something you and I have talked about a ton, greenwashing these very vague terms. All these brands ran ads in the UK through Google that used terms like sustainable materials or sustainable elegance without really offering any meaningful explanation of what they meant, how it's sustainable, or even like, what products they're referring to. That's the other thing. Like, it kind of just says sustainability meets elegance. I think was. I think the Super Dry ad said that and the ASA basically was like, okay, but what. Which products in what way? You know, and the ads are a little vague. The brand response I thought was kind of funny. Nike said that the framing is just in general terms that it's sustainable, which it's like, yeah, loosely speaking, it's sustainable. Sure. It's very ambiguous. I don't know. I'll pause there. What do you make of this?
- [10:52]
B
Yeah, and I think this is really interesting around the kind of ASA and kind of the way that they're thinking about sustainability claims. They mentioned something to do with Nike ad judging the way that they framed it as a headline was a sustainable materials. And as a result, the ASA judged it as an absolute sustainability claim, rather than, I'm guessing, a partial one. And an absolute sustainability claim from the ASA now requires robust evidence, which apparently was not provided. So I think that that's quite an interesting way of framing it. Superdry's ad, from what I read, said that the collections offered style and sustainability. And the ASA again noted that although some of the products had sustainable materials, the claim wasn't qualified or kind of limited. So again, you'd have to specify which products were sustainable and how. And then I think the Lacoste used sustainable clothing in general, leading, say, to ban it on kind of similar grounds. Obviously, these brands now have to remove those ads and probably watch out for including this kind of language in the future.
- [12:00]
A
Yeah. The Nike ad, I believe, was specifically for its tennis clothes or tennis shirts, and it said keep comfortable on and off the court, run, hit, serve. And then at the end it says sustainable materials. To me, I think that definitely implies it's like all of our tennis collection is sustainable. But I think you're right. The ASA's statement is basically, if you're going to Make a substantial claim. You need substantial evidence. Like, the bigger the claim, the more substantiation it needs. And some of the brands have responded, like Lacoste said, well, some of these terms are really hard to prove. They're hard to substantiate. And it's kind of like, okay, well, if you can't prove it, then don't say it. You know, like it's. But it's sort of like, well, it would be too hard to prove it. So the only thing we can do is be vague. And it's like. Or you could just not say anything, you know. But I think it does say something, that brands still feel compelled to use that language because clearly they see some value in it, some appeal. Kind of like we were saying, there's not a ton of demand for fur, I think, from younger consumer is. I think there is still somewhat of demand, or at least a stated demand for sustainable materials. So the brands clearly feel there's some benefit to saying this, even if they can, you know, even if they can't really back it up.
- [13:20]
B
Yeah. And I think that, you know, it's notable that a lot of these had, you know, leisure or athleisure or kind of sportswear categories that were affected. You know, this kind of marketing language where a collection is almost like cleaner because of the fact that they're saying it's with sustainable materials. I think those days are kind of getting numbered also because of the DPPs and kind of the ways that brands will now have to disclose that information. It's the same thing. The ASA is asking for concrete data around life cycles, material sourcing, manufacturing and disposal. And that's basically all of the same categories that will be included in the dpp. So maybe there were setting it up in a way for brands to almost watch out through advertising for something that's going to be affecting them very, very soon.
- [14:08]
A
Yeah, the thought I wanted to say that I was going to come back to, from our previous topic is this could be totally off base, but I feel like a year, maybe around a year ago or over the last year, you and I talked a little bit about, I think I used this sort of corny phrase, but the unwokening where I felt like a lot of fashion brands were like, you know what? We don't actually care about diversity or sustainability. Like, you know, we were pretending like Trump is president, nobody cares anymore, and kind of like retreated from a lot of stuff and rolled it back. I feel like we are maybe seeing the beginning. Oh, wow, okay. Sorry. I just saw A notification that Dario Vitaly is leaving Versace. Wow. That's relevant for what we're about to talk about. Sorry, I just saw that. Okay, well, we can adjust the script in a second.
- [14:58]
Anyway, I feel like we're starting to see, like, I've seen this joke term thrown around. Like, woke, too. Like, woke is coming back. We're doing diversity again. We are. We're going back to criticizing brands for greenwashing. It's like, that was shortsighted to leave that stuff behind. We're bringing it all back. So I don't know. The banning of fur, like, last season when our editor Jill was noting, like, feels like fur is on the rise. That was another tally in my mind of like, oh, God, we're just, like, rolling back all of that progress, and now I feel like the tide is sort of shifting a little bit, or maybe it never really shifted that way at all. It's like, no, we are banning fur. We are being more strict about our sustainability claims. We are trying to be more diversity and things like that. So I don't know. Just a loose thought. Hopefully we'll see more about that in the future. The original plan for this script, we're recording this Thursday morning, December 4th. We were going to talk about the closing of the Prada Versace deal, which was announced this week. Obviously, it's been in the works for a while, but they officially cleared all the regulatory barriers. It was all set. We were just going to talk about the deal, what we thought Versace was going to do, and I was going to talk about Dario Vitale, who just had his first collection for Versace. Zofia, you said it had some mixed reviews. I thought it was pretty cool.
- [16:19]
Literally, as we're recording, I just saw a pop up from Women's Wear Daily reporting that Daria Vitaly is leaving Versace. So I am learning about this. We're both learning about this as we are recording this. So this is sort of our live reaction. Womenswear Daily asked Versace for comment, and they confirmed that he's departing the brand. This is like, two days, I think, after the deal was finalized and completed. Versace is being folded into the Prada group. I think Lorenzo Bertelli is going to oversee the direction of Versace. Basically, he has said he thinks the brand is underperforming relative to its potential. And I guess one of the first big decisions was that Vitaly is out. That's pretty surprising to me, given how recently he joined the company. So what's your reactions of.
- [17:10]
B
Yeah, yeah. So he was appointed as the chief creative director just in March. So it's literally only been a couple of months since he's been heading up Versace. And from what I've seen, it's been noted that he hasn't been seen in his office for the last couple of days. So as a result, people started asking questions, and market sources believe that his contract was renewed through to February 2026 and apparently was deep into preparations for an upcoming fall show. So it's quite interesting that that's. That's not happening now. Vitaly's previously served as the ready to wear design director at Miu Miu, where I think his run was very successful. And then to see that now being changed and now he's leaving Versace after only a couple of months, it's a big move and a big blow, especially considering how recently that deal closed.
- [18:06]
A
Yeah, I'm just kind of surprised by this whole thing. I was going to say, I'm trying to incorporate some of my original notes here. The deal was closed, I believe, for $1.4 billion, which is quite a bit less than what Capri holding, who was the previous owner, paid for Versace in 2018. I think they paid over $2 billion. I think Lorenzo Bertelli is right when he says that Versace has underperformed. It's still a big brand. I think the estimate is that upon joining Prada, it would make up about 13% of Prada's revenue. So it's not small, but given its place in fashion, history and culture, there's TV shows about it. The Gianni Versace show from a couple years ago, the huge name recognition it has globally, given all that, it definitely, I think, underperforms compared to what it could do and its potential. So lots of potential for growth. I literally was like, and Daria Vitaly is this exciting new creative director who's going to be leading it, But I guess not. Yeah. What else do you think?
- [19:13]
B
Yeah, I'm interested as well, because it signals kind of an internal maybe tension within Prado's ecosystem. The fact that this isn't maybe aligning with what Prada is thinking about the brand. His exit could signal a kind of deeper misalignment over autonomy expectations. So something a little bit more sudden than maybe a planned creative director shift, as is what we've been see over the last year or so. The other thing is that it obviously complicates the near term runaway calendar. If there's no creative director for the February show, does that mean that Saatchi will end up skipping it. Will they focus on doing a team led Runway show, which has happened a number of brands previously, or are they going to appoint someone in the interim as well? That's something to think about, but I'm really interested in seeing why this happened now. You know, it's not exactly a great timing for a creative director to leave. And to be honest, even though I actually didn't love the show, I do think that the direction was interesting and it usually does take a good couple of seasons before a creative director finds their footing. So I think there's something else going on here.
- [20:29]
A
Yeah. And we've spoken about this so many times so we don't have to repeat it. But again, so many creative directors leave on much shorter timelines now than they have in previous years in the fashion industry. Yeah, well, that's a surprising real time development. Also, credit to Women's Wear Daily for being the first to report it. They also are, you should read the story because they have a lot of good details. But they also said he was apparently scouting locations for next season's show and everything. And so, yeah, I'm not sure exactly what happened behind the scenes there, but definitely an interesting development. I think that's all the time we have for our news segment before we take a quick break and get to your conversation about digital passports. Any more you can tell us about any more setup you want to give for this conversation before we cut to it?
- [21:19]
B
Yeah, so I mean, the main thing is obviously that the regulation is coming and that the people in exec circles need to be prepared for digital product passports, especially if they want to keep selling in the eu, which I'm assuming most global brands will want to continue doing. Obviously, there will be a kind of gradual rollout of all of this, but it's worth knowing these details early considering how fragmented different departments are. And that's something that we also get into with Leanne and how to kind of communicate between those departments. So if you want a good guide on approaching digital product passports, listen in.
- [21:55]
A
Sounds good. Well, thank you so much, Zofia, and thank you for discussing the news of the week with me.
- [22:00]
B
Thanks so much, Dani. It was a pleasure to have.
- [22:14]
Hi and welcome back to the Glossy Podcast. Today we're talking about one of the most disruptive regulations fashion has seen in decades, called the EU Digital Product Passport, or DPP for short. This isn't an idea and it's not voluntary. It's not far off for textiles. The countdown ends in 2027, but obviously brands will have to prepare for this a lot soon. And every product sold in the EU, whether that's a $15 T shirt to a $3,000 coat, will need a digital passport. And this passport won't just track sustainability claims. It records the product's entire life cycle from raw fiber to recycling, making product level transparency mandatory across the whole supply chain. And to help us break it down, today, I'm joined by Leanne from the Institute of Digital Fashion. Hi Leanne.
- [23:02]
C
Hey, nice to be here.
- [23:03]
B
And Leanne has been responsible for rolling out some of the DPP programs in the uk. Obviously the British market is one that's starting early in doing it. Leanne, tell me a little bit more about IODF and what you're doing with DPPs.
- [23:18]
C
So IODF, I think we've delivered some of the kind of innovation the fashion landscape has seen the last four years. So. So we've got seven worlds first and all of that has been birthed from us really like innovating from the point all the way from studio floor to shop floor. So as soon as we found out about the digital product passports and that compliance, we were so excited. It felt like all of the manifestos we were building around how you put the people and the planet first and some of the work that we delivered through Web3 and digital innovation, it felt like all of that had come to this like precipiced. And it's effectively dpp. It's a wonderful tool. We really see it as a channel. So it, it means that effectively you as a brand can communicate with your audience, the customer, very much one to one. So there's, there's a whole like wonderful overview of what it's doing for sustainability and but for us it really is about this kind of, this space in which allows the customer and the brand to have a one to one communication. And that's how we're very much putting it. That's how we're kind of building out the narrative around it that as well as its compliance, it also affects positively your roi. So getting on board now and as you mentioned since 2027, but getting on board now and driving innovation through that is something we see is a very exciting proposition for brands. Kind of like how to make compliance call. I think that's what a few people have noticed, what we're delivering.
- [25:02]
B
Yeah, I think that that's the most interesting part of it is not just a kind of compliance tool, but also as a new channel to kind of talk to customers. It's best understood as a kind of digital identity for every textile product. So it can be a QR code, but it's not. Not just that, that's only the kind of front door for customers. The passport itself is structured as a data set carrying validated information on raw materials and composition, supply chain tiers and processes, transport and transformation steps, environmental and social impact certifications, repairability, durability, circularity indicators, end of life sorting, recycling and potential lifetime events like repairs, resales or refurbishments. So a lot can be stuck into this one label and most DPPs will come in the format of a QR code that is attached to the product itself. So it will be something that will come as a hang tag, similar to what most clothing items have nowadays, and you'll basically be able to get more info as a result. And this is what the EU describes as a comprehensive lifecycle data system, combining the product identifier data from across all the tiers and a physical link. So a QR code or an NFC link that connects the product to its digital identity. Did I miss anything there, Leanne?
- [26:23]
C
No. I think it also shows the complexity of it. And for us that's one of the big issues, is that the brands that we've been speaking to when it comes to onboarding, there seems to be on one level this kind of smorcus board of delightful tools that you can layer into the dpp. But also it comes with a lot of queries and really.
- [26:46]
A lot of confusion about which individuals in your team. What group? Who are you talking to? Are you talking to the design team? You're talking to the sustainability team? Talking to the innovation team? If you're lucky enough as a brand to even still have your innovation officers or a team behind that, because we know loads got cold. So it really is for us, we're trying to build out a very streamlined way in which we can have a discovery and then get to the bottom of who and from your team has all of these different data sets. Then you look into your tech stack. Where does it sit in your own tech stack? Do you build on top of that? Are you building something instead of E Comm on a website? Is one of the big questions. We've been having a lot with brands and then also as well, who's actually dealing with like QC on your side? Lots of those are external agencies. When it comes all the, all of the different levels of the factory audits, the subcontractor mapping, which is gigantic, your raw material validation, the component inspection, inspections, when it comes to trims, hardware linings, we know that this is for some brands, particularly when it comes to subcontractor mapping, which happens a lot in Italy, how do you gather all that information together? So not only are we building this kind of a discovery process in which we can hopefully get to that as quick as possible by having all of the mandate information, but also because we do work with teams that deal with the traceability verification, the factory audit and the physical validation, as well as the tech stack. Hopefully us as a kind of duo with EPAM could bring that together in a tight package for you, rather than the layers of terminology, which even to us, I mean, I spent a good part of last week just get to get into grips with all of the different layers and this kind of extraordinary map of where you have to start and what basic compliance is still has not been delivered from the eu. It's still something which is a vague notion. So we'll be hearing at the end of this month. So roll on Christmas.
- [29:06]
Best Christmas present ever. To finally understand what, what the EU is actually, what the compliance, you know, the basic compliance is, because that's still a very vague information.
- [29:18]
Hole at the moment. So, I mean, it's really exciting. I love all the detailed, orientated work and just how can you get. Put it together in a real.
- [29:29]
In a package that gets through all the chuff as quick as possible? Because there's so much of it. And I think that is the biggest thing that we've seen is panic. So we're trying to kind of just go, it's okay, we've got you. Look, look at all the roi. Look at all these kind of amazing, you know, you can, this whole idea of the back and forth that you can have for the customer where the, where all of the, all of the amazing campaigns and the back and forth with the design team. Where does that exist currently? You can talk so much about your brand and storytell. Well, don't worry, we'll get through the compliance gump. And then, and then we'll get to the fun part. So we're kind of, you know, don't worry, there's. There's a cherry on the top of the cake. But yeah, it's been a really, really interesting.
- [30:18]
You know, pivot for, for us as a, as a, as a company. But it's very, very exciting and I feel it's really what we've been, the fashion industry has been asking for, for so long. Like, just imagine being able to understand where right now with resale, you know, you, you have no idea where your brand is or who's. Who owns it at all. And we've, I know we've seen all these amazing.
- [30:44]
Like, really juicy kind of overviews of how much resale is, is, is earning at the moment, those resale sites. And like, how do we have a part of that? Let's do some partnerships with Vestier and Vinted and ebay. And actually with dpp, you have the option of building in a resale yourself. But imagine further, further than that, that actually you can see where a product that was produced five years ago is actually trending and that is exciting. Like more people are selling it and the worth of this off the shoulder red dress, you know, in 20, you know, 2036, because it has a DP, you can see in what, what country is this random product you made, you know, five years ago having a bit of a moment that's, you know, that's incredible. All of these kind of like, I feel like data and insights would be absolutely different and more detailed, but it's just, it's fantastic because it means that from a designer you can really understand what, what's occurring in the landscape and where your brand vocabulary is sitting. And how exquisite is that to see, to have this firsthand information, this map of, of where your product is sitting. And I think that will really help the design team because as we know, the amount of SKUs that are produced are quite, it's quite ghastly when you kind of break it down and it's just hit and miss, isn't it? It's like, like, go green, brat green. Go, go, go.
- [32:15]
Dusting green would be such a, you know, hit. And it's kind of like, how do you know when those things are erupting and how do you know when they're going to occur? And how do you be non reactionary and a little bit more.
- [32:30]
B
I guess, thoughtful?
- [32:31]
A
Right.
- [32:33]
B
I think that's, that's the thing. It does seem like this, this allows brands to have a lot more control over where they show up. I think the resale conversation, as you mentioned, has been massive and we've seen luxury brands like Chloe already partnering with Vestia to track their resale proposition, but also be able to kind of bring products back and put them into resale channels without additional kind of steps, which I think a lot of customers were looking for. And I think DPPs are always so interesting because of the fact that that fashion in general has probably one of the most complex supply chains in the world. You already kind of alluded to it a little bit with the amount of subcontracting that happens. And if no one knows what subcontracting is. Basically some companies, if they don't have enough kind of production capability to produce a certain amount of clothing for a brand, will end up subcontracting that out to other contractors who are able to either fulfill those quantities or able to do something a little bit different that they cannot. And a lot of this does happen in legal channels, but also some which are illegal, which is what we've seen this year with Loro Piana, with Armani. There's been a lot of probes into how clothes are made, especially in luxury in Italian supply chains, but also kind of global ones too. And I think this DPP is meant to allow customers to have a little bit more transparency into how their products are produced. And obviously it will become a necessity for brands as well. So it's something that brands won't be able to hide anymore. And I think that that transparency is really important. Over half of customers now research sustainability before purchasing. Secondhand is projected to surpass fast fashion within this decade. And we've seen that with the valuations that Vinted has, the success that Vestier has even in the US Rent the Runway is doing very well. And younger shoppers expect digital access to verified information, which is also where, where the DPPs kind of come in in terms of the actual timeline. Tell me how you're taking brands through that. What are they expecting in terms of the next year?
- [34:45]
C
For us, we're building out quite a few POCs. It seems that there is, even though it's 2027, SMEs have a little bit longer, but it is 2027. We have still seen a worrying amount of hesitation. A brand still kind of waiting for, I mean, of course waiting for the formal information from the, from the EU and what that compliance standards look like and the formal build out of that narrative. But still brands are seeing it as something to worry about later. So from our perspective.
- [35:25]
We are building POCs with specific parts of brands. So we've got some really big NDAs. So I'm going to kind of like glitter over it to say that I think. Yeah. So from some of our enterprise clients it is build a POC work on an eight week.
- [35:49]
Project that looks at all the different points of ROI, the complexities. So effectively a discovery, not a live DPP. But that eight weeks almost takes us into Q1. It's not that long to get.
- [36:09]
An enterprise client is a hefty big brand and a lot of work. So I think that we are going to see Q1 a lot of brands with their tails between their legs, kind of of pandemonium. Like, how do we, how do we get there at speed? So we're kind of saying to everyone, you just need to start now because as you highlighted the subcontractors I think is a really, really big, a strong worry for a lot of, for a lot of brands. I think everyone really should be looking deep into their.
- [36:47]
Into their network of contractors and looking at their supply chain and getting as much kind of in order, getting their ducks in a row as much as possible. Because this is going to be something which is mandatory. It's not, we're not talking about, you know, the possibilities of the metaverse or, you know, any, any like, new theory about what may possibly happen in fashion. This is, this is a policy which everyone has to adhere to. So I think even though we are looking this 2027 and we still don't have all the details, it really is a big shout out and it's amazing that you're, you're having this conversation on your podcast because we're still yet to see any big, you know, titles write about this in a, in a, in a big way, as if to say, come on, you know, it's gonna hit everyone so quick.
- [37:38]
B
So, yeah, we've been covering DPPS for about two or three years now and it was always kind of with the intention that it's supposed to help brands. And we are seeing that even with SMEs, they're kind of looking at their production a little bit more detail or kind of partnering directly with manufacturers, so that relationship is closer. So I'm assuming with their kind of production it's going to be a little bit easier to adopt DPPs, but it's still something that a lot of brands will struggle with. And, and what you said, 2027 is going to be based on the current kind of reporting and what's been out there from the EU. 2027 is going to be minimal and simplified DPPs. So it's mandatory for all textile products. It includes essential product data, key environmental indicators, and it's designed to kind of establish a baseline for products. And then this is going to go even further and there's supposedly going to be two more phases, phase two and 2030, more comprehensive lifecycle data, some more broader stakeholder input so sorters, recyclers and after sale services. And it moves towards traceability beyond the kind of point of sale. So thinking about resale and stuff and then the final phase, which at the moment obviously all of these dates are A little bit hazy still, but it's 2033 with full circular DPPs which track usage, repair, maintenance, resale and recycling. And that's the one that kind of enables a circular business model designed to support full lifecycle optimization. But obviously we will see what happens at the end of this month and kind of what the EU comes out with if they make bigger amendments to this. It does feel like a lot of this kind of textile space is so difficult because clothing has so many different steps to go through. We've got, I think there'll be different kind of tiers that parts of the production will be broken down into. So you've got tier four, which is fiber production, three, yarn spinning and pre processing, two is knitting, weaving and dyeing, one is cutting, sewing and assembly. And tier zero is brands and retail. So I think most brands have a bit of an understanding up to maybe like tier 2 and then tier 3 onwards. It's like we don't really know. Yeah.
- [39:54]
C
And I think the beauty of SMEs, which is it's very rare. You say as an SME, you are in a, you're in a, a great position over some of the big conglomerates and the large, like enterprise brands. But really we've been saying. So we've actually got, we've been doing a lot on social media and we actually went viral on LinkedIn about the Skims. We've been, we've been kind of like, like talking a lot about sustainability and the production line and this map and accountability and famously skims scored zero worse than sheen. So we kind of, we've been talking a lot, a lot about, you know, your production map, etc and, and sustainability information and just the fact that we built a kind of. So you can, you can comment DPP in any of these and we'll give you a PDF which walks you through basic compliance. So all those different phases that you were just discussing, it's great to hear it like that because when you actually do go on the, the any formal literature about it, it's pages and pages and pages. So we're trying to make it more like digestible and, you know, quicker because it's so heavy and it's scary. So there's all these different layers and phases and for us, SMEs are in a great position. Those new gen designers at London Fashion Week, my absolute faves, you know, Copenhagen Fashion Week, those designers that are kind of showcasing there, they understand where their products are because they're all just on their factory floor. They've brought them They've got a great relationship with the teams and they understand their full map of. And I feel like for them it's going to be a lot easier. So it's great. I'm really excited about that. They're, they're like, they can be first, first to it, have the certification, I'm there, I'm compliant because it's, it's the enterprise clients have got a lot more work to do. So that's why we're kind of concentrating on enterprise right now and being like, come on guys, everyone get ready, get ready, please. Because I don't want to be in this kind of, of, you know, intense mess where we're grappling around. It's going to cost more, going to have to have more team and I'm going to not be sleeping through the night getting this ready. But no, it's great that SMEs are in A, in a better position and I'm very excited about again, all the narrative and storytelling that will come from this, like, amazing dpp. I'm so excited about it.
- [42:29]
B
And yeah, you mentioned obviously that, you know, from an enterprise perspective there's so many different departments which almost have to work together for the first time now. We've seen some collaboration across marketing and production already. If you're talking about sustainability, chances are that those two departments will have to work together to talk about the product. But tell me about the level of collaboration that's needed now for DPPs, considering that data access, how difficult is it for an enterprise client to actually make all of those different departments work together?
- [43:02]
C
So for us, that's why the discovery is such a big part of the, and the POC is a big part of the work because. Exactly as you said, none of those teams have probably in some companies even work together at all. So having obviously a big C suite sign off. So rather than seeing this as a marketing project or a sustainability project, it's actually getting the C suite on board in the first instance.
- [43:31]
It's not about innovation, it's about, you know, compliance. It's your whole company has to align and we've seen everything from spreadsheets, you know, to handwritten information. It really is a, it's very close and personal relationships, as in we're having to pick apart lots of, and put together work that has never been done before. And lots of companies work in silos because the design team probably have a much more innovative software than say, the sustainability and compliance team. It's the software, the differences in software that are used between the Teams as well, the semantical exchanges, they're different types of humans. So it's really been interesting working across the teams and effectively aligning everyone onto the common goal. And the reason why POC and the. The discovery is so interesting is because each brand has a different perspective on what matters to them. Some brands want to showcase the. The very intimate exchanges between the design team and the creative director and the drawings and the text messages and WhatsApp group routes that they had in order to get to this beautiful design solution, the ergonomic factors that are brought into it. If we're talking about brands that are very technical, the technical fabrics that also exist within the, that they may have worked with sustainability teams to create something that isn't like PEU or that is compliant to those kind of sustainability standards. So there's so many different fractures as to what the. What they want to highlight within the dpp. Exactly what we were saying at the beginning, there's so many components of storytelling, of marketing, of, you know, social first content, the idea of co creation, so many different layers. So it really is important, number one, to get the C suite involved so that everyone's, you know, heads are up and listening and they're all in those meetings and normally the meetings are very busy. There's lots of people in those meetings. But we've all got a common goal, to work from a brand perspective as to what they want to build. And what is the innovation layer of this and is it heavily in marketing or is it about.
- [46:02]
A specific SKU they want to highlight? And that's just within partnership, within a collaboration, you know, collaborative project. That's the part that they want to be talking about the most. But then the basic, you know, meat and two veg of it is we need all that data.
- [46:21]
B
Yeah. And I think that data piece, as well as kind of the marketing piece of it that can be, you know, added to the DPP is what makes this an interesting channel. Not just, you know, NFC or a QR code that customers can to know about the origin of their product. The reason that we've kind of connected over this was because of your project with Yakoo. And we've also seen very innovative uses of DPPs from brands like Nobody's Child and Patrick McDowell who've used them in past collections. Tell me about this one with Yaku and kind of what additional bits were you able to add into the DPP that maybe aren't just talking about product original?
- [47:07]
C
And for us, I think because Yaku is such a, as a designer Is, you know, deeply exploratory. Their work comes from this kind of gamified notion of the family set. So his family as like kind of archetypal characters come up through and through. Again, his work speaks to a Gen Z audience. So it was wonderful for to see these monsters of garments that wrap around the body in this extraordinary form. Number one, even getting all the compliance info was, was. Was a dream. You know, he was going through all of the components. He had everything there already. It's f part of the Paul Smith foundation. So even the dying process using natural dyes. He had all of the compliance terminology already in his kind of wheelhouse. He's got a fantast team. So for us on that, we wanted to use an NFC chip. Obviously that was great for him as a brand already part of his thinking. And we. We're just like, how can we elevate? So for us it was this idea of with co creation, we gamified it. So as a, as a customer or somebody had purchased that, that specific garment, you could vote into different colorways, different, different styles. And there was a leaderboard that spoke, spoke perfectly to Yaku's sensibilities, the fact he's a gamer. We also built a resale. So the resale was fantastic. So from a customer perspective, we orientated in the sense of there's all these annoying things you have to do when you're reselling a garment. One of them is get all of the brand information and kind of. So it packaged it all up for you so you could automatically resell to various sites, sites, choose which site that all that information was there. The seamlessness from a customer perspective. Also within that there was the resale within Yaku. So we built a whole resale platform then for him. He could see, you know, his side from the brand side. What was the. His garments worth and where they were selling though again, there was the data of all of that came back to the brand. What is this product selling for? Okay. It's actually trending right now. It's selling on vestiaire for quite a lot. Okay. So when I, you know, that affects effectively when he's pricing up his garments, like what's the next. What people. Is it in demand? What is the price point I can now lead with as an emerging designer? And for us, that data and insights so important to have feet for a brand because right now you have no idea of those kind of like insights or you have to pay a whole kind of new team to kind of go out and validate that information. For you and as an SME, you don't have that and as an enterprise, it still escapes you that information also as well, something which we believe is so important is this idea of ownership, like who.
- [50:17]
Where, where the product's been. So for instance, sense the, the product that you've purchased. It's been in an editorial in Vogue, it's been in Outlander, it's also been in Dazed and Culted. These the editorials. But beyond that, the timestamp of Rihanna also wore this. You know, having these really and for us is really exciting opportunity there is. It reframes this idea of influencer marketing because as a brand you could get gift the product to a celebrity instead of it being on the social media sites, instead on the timestamp within the DPP of the garment, it's added that, you know, you broken a partnership with Rihanna, she wore that garment, she uploads that photo. It's much more intimate. And then you become a part of the narrative because we all aware that the kind of the new, you know, Gen Z, everyone's excited about, about themselves being, you know, upfront and personal. I want to be involved in this. Like how, how does this, what's the me part? So you and your ownership of the garment is timestamped on there as well. So they were some of the key points that we layered into this dpp all based on our deep knowledge and understanding of the dichotomy that brands are like sit with currently and the pain points. And then also from an audience perspective, what's really annoying? Like what is all of these things about? Like what, what's annoying for you? Also repair is one which is so important within this, the fact that you can bring it back to the brand. There's another EU compliance which is about in 2029, which is the fact of the end of life care as a brand and repair and recycle. So the, the opportunity for you to bring it in, either swap it for other garments or have repair. Repair and uplift. And these are the kind of points that I think for Yaku as a brand were really important. So we built those all in the language of, of his brand. And it was just wonderful. It's wonderful to work with. It's an extraordinary talent. I really think he's going to be someone who's doing a lot of exciting projects. Yeah, so that was really wonderful to work with.
- [52:40]
B
Yeah, it was a very, very cool kind of project. And obviously scanning the NFC in person was also really interesting. So you got to see all of that Data. And it will be kind of up to the brands to decide how much data they want to include. There will be a kind of mandatory generic, almost foundation. So things like raw material, component production, the assembly use, usage and recycling. But in terms of kind of additional stuff, brands can basically add on anything that they want as long as they think it's something that might interest the customer and not be overwhelming at the same time. Because as much of an opportunity this is to kind of showcase as much as you can. It can also be another opportunity for a more edited kind of approach to consumer communication. You can talk about what you're focused on, whether that's storytelling, kind of origin. If you're talking about production from a specific place, you can add in videos or texts or even kind of conversations with some of your manufacturers, which we've already seen from many brands on social media. And it just gives you another channel to kind of add to that. I think the other aspect of it is that as you said, because of that additional layer, you can add on loyalty programs into this, I believe that nobody's child has kind of a repair program within that. And that means that you can kind of extend the relationship that you have with your customer through the dpp. Now, obviously, adoption, we'll see how many people actually scan it, but I think that considering the number of communications around this, as well as the unique features that you could have with a dpp, it could be a very useful channel, you know, to kind of break out from the noise compared to all of the stuff going on on socials already. I think customers have a hard time with, with acquisition already on those.
- [54:32]
C
I was going to say, and I think that's one of the big points is that we are in this kind of social media Internet fatigue, like everyone's kind of. And brands have really struggled to make sense of social media. And TikTok brand still, still, you know, are just kind of stuck in a. In a space where they're just, you know, paying the algorithm to show up. And it's something which hasn't changed. You know, we see some people fly through and you're like, wow, they're making social first content, but it's rare. And I think that the issue with brands, you know, they're spending millions, like so much money on social media just to get ahead of the algorithm and be a part of it. And this is something where, which we are in a big social media fatigue. You know, people aren't posting, they're sharing. It's become entertainment. People watch more cats and Dogs and people falling over. They do get brand, you know, beautiful brand campaigns. Like, where do those brand campaigns sit? Where's all that work on the shoots? You know, I feel like this is a really extraordinary opportunity for brands to go back to that, that layered storytelling that's slow, but also to your point, that's loyal and intimate because trust is again, something we're seeing, like, particularly for luxury. There's a big trust issue. So much in the press about that at the moment, the nose dive of figures from luxury spending. So bring the trust back, you know, communicate in a deeper, slower way with your audience. I'm really excited about seeing slow, exquisite campaigns and then up close and personal DMs and back and forth. I'm just really excited about this new mode of communicating to your audiences. Yeah, so I'm excited about that.
- [56:22]
B
So on top of that compliance layer, you'd have additional text bit, video bits, background information, something that allows you to kind of of take a bit of a peek behind the curtain at what's going on with fashion brands and how you end up selling. That becomes almost like another USB for the brand, something that makes you unique and interesting. So the digital product passport isn't optional. It's arriving in 2027, expanding in 2030, and fully circular by 2033. If those dates don't change by the end of the month, fashion brands that prepare now are, I think, will thrive, and those that wait, as you said, will be scrambling around and kind of chasing the next thing. So I think it's time to get on and get ahead of the regulation. Leanne, thank you so much for joining us. I think it was a pleasure getting through everything and showcasing the opportunities with DPPs.
- [57:18]
C
Thank you so much. Ciao.
- [57:28]
B
And that's all the time that we have this week. Don't forget to give us a rating and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify, wherever you're listening to this, it really helps us out a lot. Thanks for listening.