← The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
861: The Biggest Messaging Mistake You’re Making—And How to Fix It
00:55:43
With Ashlyn Carter and Jenna Kutcher
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Transcript54 lines
- [00:02]
A
Here's my opinion on what I do. I am an expert. I've been doing this for a long time and here's my philosophy on it. Don't be afraid to share that. That is the human aspect and the story aspect. That you can communicate clearly that a word salad shot out by some AI tool. It's not going to be strong with that.
- [00:21]
B
I'm Jenna Kutcher, your host of the Goal Digger podcast. I escaped the corporate world at the age of 23 with nothing more than a $300 camera from Craigslist and a DRE. Now I'm running a seven figure online business that feels even better than it looks. All from my house in small town Minnesota with my family here. We value time as our currency. We mix the woo and the work and we are in the pursuit of building businesses that give us the freedom to live lives that we love. I've always loved turning big goals into reality and I'm here to help you do the same. This isn't just a peek behind the curtain. Come along with me and my guests as we tear the whole curtain down. Every week we tackle practical, no fluff marketing marketing strategies and host honest discussions on what works and what doesn't. Join me and my expert guests for actionable insights to help you grow your dream business with confidence. Pull up a seat and get ready to be challenged, inspired and empowered. This is the Gold Digger podcast. What if I told you that the reason your copy isn't actually converting isn't because you need better writing, but because something deeper is off? You might have the most beautifully crafted words, but if your message isn't landing, no amount of fancy copy will fix that. That is exactly why I am so excited for today's guest, because when it comes to copy that actually works, there is only one person that I trust. Ashlyn Carter isn't just an incredible copywriter, she's a strategic mind behind so much of the messaging in my own business. I've known her for nearly a decade and she is the only person I send people to when they need copy that drives real results, not just words that sound good on paper. Ashlyn is the founder of Ashlyn Writes, a conversion copywriting agency for creative entrepreneurs, and she knows the real reason most business owners struggle to turn browsers into buyers. And it's probably not what you think. In today's conversation, we're unpacking why your words might not be working, the biggest messaging mistakes that could be costing you sales, and the secret behind copy that doesn't just sound good but actually sells. Plus, we'll break down her framework for balancing clarity with storytelling so that you can finally communicate what you do in a way that clicks with the right people. If you've been struggling to explain what you do, why it matters, and why people should choose you, this episode is for you. And real quick, before we dive in, if you are ready to finally crack the code on Copy that Converts, Ashlyn is hosting a free webinar that you need to check out@jenna kutcher.com forward/copywriting. She hosted this last year and my audience raved about it. It is called the Copy Kit Clinic, and inside it, she's going to teach you how to build out the statements and the words that you need for your business in order to make sales. You're also going to learn how to harness AI without losing your brand's unique voice, something we talk about in this episode. She's going to help you master the three pillars of brand voice to sound like you while connecting with dream clients. And she'll show you how to turn bland messaging into a conversion powerhouse. She's covering everything from crafting stand why pick me statements to the five essential copy staples, headlines, homepages, and emails that every single business needs. Head to Jenna kutcher.com forward/copywriting to save your seat. I will be there. I cannot recommend this enough. It is such a masterclass in how to write amazing copy that sells. All right, without further ado, welcome back to the Gold Digger podcast. Ashley Carter, you are my favorite person to ask this question to, and so I want us to just literally dive off the deep end and we'll swim our way back up. But I want to know, Ashlyn, what is the number one mistake that business owners are making right now in 2025 when it comes to copywriting for their business?
- [04:14]
A
Okay, jumping right into the deep end with the spicy takes. You're abdicating to AI what I believe needs to be done analog or artisanal first with your brain, critical thinking. So it is not about with copywriting. It is not about just filling your email sequence or your webpage, your landing page or sales page with words. Like, if you just want words, a machine can give you that. You have to think about the positioning. You have to think about figuring out where categorically you're going to stand with your audience and having an opinion. Information is just like, I mean, it's a dime a dozen these days. It's so easy to have information, but people are craving insights and your stamp on things and that's the piece that can be missing sometimes in copywriting when you're just looking at it to fill words.
- [05:06]
B
Okay, this is so good, and it's so fun. Like, you and I, obviously, we nerd out over copy, right? You and I, our relationship started a decade ago talking about words.
- [05:18]
A
Yeah, it's wild.
- [05:20]
B
It's wild. And I think what's really interesting, especially in the times that we're finding ourselves in, is that people now have an awareness around copy, and they know that they need it, and they know that they need words. Right. We need words in every area of our business, whatever that is. But I want to talk about positioning. You brought that word up. Let's break it down. What is positioning? How does it play a role? Because I think that people are familiar now with copy, but positioning is something that's different. It's nuanced, and it is way critical, especially now more than ever.
- [05:54]
A
I love it. Yeah. Throwback Thursday. To win, like, we had to define what copy is. I think everybody knows what that means at this point. We know it's the words that make people make a decision or not. But underneath that, at its base layer, the copy. Just the copy, the marketing, the reels, the emails, the pr, all that does is just hold a mic up to the messaging and the positioning that was there first. It's just going to amplify what's there, and if it hits, then it's gonna amplify that. And if it doesn't hit, it's gonna amplify that, unfortunately. So what is that thing positioning is? I used the word earlier categorically. It's how people basically think about how they categorize you in a bucket in their head, you and your offer and what you do. People, our little brains, are smart, and they're trying to keep us alive. And so when they come in contact with all the millions of marketing messages that hit their brain, they're trying to slot it somewhere to just make sense of the world. So when they hear about you and your service, your business, what you offer, their brain's trying to say, o, pick up that brand. Pick up Jenna Kutcher's brand. Put it in this bucket in my head. And so that is what positioning does, is you're making it uber clear. Hopefully, you're making it very clear where you want to go in their head. You're helping them understand what you do, how you do it, how you do it better or different from your competition, how they can work with you and where to go next. And that is what in a nutshell, positioning is. And that sits underneath. It's like the foundation of the house that the other things, the imagery and the copy is built on.
- [07:21]
B
Okay, I love this. And I know there have been so many times in my past as an entrepreneur where I myself have struggled with, like, how do I describe what I do and how do I make it make sense for other people? It makes sense in my head, which I think is what happens for a lot of us. Of like, I know what this is, but if I cannot communicate that things are getting lost in translation. And I would argue that every person listening to this needs to do a masterclass in positioning, because at the end of the day, if you just have words that tell, that's great. But, Ashley, you like to teach words that sell. And I believe that in order to sell, you have to have positioning that makes it really clear as to, like, what's in it for me? What's the end result of this? And like, how do I get that end result, which is likely a purchase, right?
- [08:15]
A
Yes. And I love how you said it's hard for you. Honestly, it's hard for me sometimes. This is the thing I do because it's hard to see the thing that you are so close to. And that's why you have to get either other eyeballs on it. That's why we have a whole coaching program that we pull people through to help. You've got to pick at it. You need people to pick at it and poke holes in it. You need to put it in front of your customers. Like, if that. If what you came up with, you think is clear, only exists in your head and you've never put it out there in the battlefield of ideas to really test. Like, is this understood? You know, I and I created what I did because I feel like you shouldn't have to hit publish on something in a vacuum. I want you to be able to figure out what it is around other people. So, yes, I would say, and we've experienced this and we've worked with your products, positioning changes over time too. You'll position an offer a certain way and oh my goodness, we've seen the industry change so much in the past few years. I feel like it's like changing even more and more to rapid pace. So you do have to dust off your positioning of your we did my whole brand last year. Like, we re vetted it and like, that is a healthy part of just being in business is finessing the positioning. You know, you don't usually have to go 180 on it or anything like that. But constantly being aware and making sure that you're helping. Again, it goes back to you're helping your customer understand how to sort you. It's like you're explaining to them how you can serve them. And so sometimes you just have to dust it off and say it in a fresh way, in a clear way, in a way that's different with all the messages that are going on out there. So, yeah.
- [09:52]
B
Oh my gosh, I couldn't agree more. And I love that you brought up too. This isn't a set it and forget it thing. It is a thing that should be revisited often. And you know, we recently just went through our first launch of the year and every single year we are looking at the positioning, we are looking at the copy, we are looking at the angles. And I think a lot of times people dream of that. Set it and forget it. I think we've all kind of uncovered that passive income is a lie. And so this is an area where if you're not getting the same sales you were a year ago or if you aren't communicating to the right people or you're like, I'm getting the wrong people in my ecosystem or these are not the people I'm creating for or this isn't solving the problem they thought they had. I would argue that it's likely a positioning issue. Would you agree with that?
- [10:42]
A
100%. And it's hard. I think it was Ogilvy that said in his whole life he was a famous old copywriter, like back in the early Mad Men days. He said, I think I've only written eight good hooks in my whole life. It is hard to figure out. It takes, I say all the time, you cannot outsource your business push ups. This is the kind of thing that you have to figure out or be close enough to your product to poke at and or your offer your service, whatever it is, you're going to have to do some legwork to figure it out. And you're going to have to put some bait out in the water and see like what do the fish hit on. And it's. It takes. I love too. You just said it takes launching something over and over and like having the grit and the wherewithal to put something out multiple times. And I was saying that to some of our team earlier today, it takes a strong stomach these days to get out there and make the amount of noise to get eyeballs on your business that it just takes in 20, 25. And I think a lot of us. You feel self promotional, but what you're doing is like talking at a normal voice in the the room of the Internet when you feel like you're yelling. So it takes a little bit, but if that is how you really test an idea and you test a hook and you test a positioning statement, you test copy even by just seeing what actually works and that, that goes on out in the real world.
- [12:00]
B
Yes. I feel like one thing that is different even in this year is that if there is even an ounce of confusion, people are moving on like it is. There is no time for confusion where I feel like in the past you could maybe get away being a little bit wishy washy or a little unclear. And I feel like even the other day I clicked on an ad for something, I can't even remember what it was, but I like, landed on the website and I was so confused as to like, wait, what are you actually selling? What is the offer? Like, it doesn't even make sense. I clicked right off. Like, right away there were like alarm bells in my head of, like, this doesn't even make sense. Get off of here. And so I feel like this is the year where clarity is going to be what sells. And if you are not clear in the message, the mission and the promise, people are just going to click off. There's too many things pulling at their attention.
- [12:52]
A
So one thing, mission and the promise. That's so good. Jenna.
- [12:56]
B
Yes. One thing you said last year, and we're going to go back to it, because I loved it, is that last year on this podcast, you said, I will eat mediocre copywriters for breakfast. And we broke that down. But I want to talk about how can small business owners and creatives practically anchor their brands in human connection while still leveraging AI tools? And I think that we are in a really unique time. And so what does that look like and what does that balance look like? Because you hit on it at the very beginning. And I think that this is something that we're still uncovering, but this is where it's going to make all the difference.
- [13:33]
A
Yes, I stand by what I said. I do believe that AI is continuing to eat mediocre copywriting for breakfast. So how do you stand out with it? How do you put a human stamp on it? We've both talked about, like, we love AI, use it all of the time. But you, I think, like one of you said practically, how can you look at this? So I think one tool that I've told some people is to look at it do like a, like a 30, 40, 30 kind of framework. So what if you 30% do the thinking and the braining and even like in journalism school, you wouldn't start an article thinking, like what is the point of this? Like what am I trying to say? What do I want to happen with this? And then if you want to lean on AI tools or frameworks or copy templates, which I know you have offered this before, we have offered this. Those are good things that can help you organize and lawyer up and lay out the messaging order that something should go in. And then the latter half of that or the 30% like you cleaning up, adding voice, adding style, that can be a good kind of framework to think about. So you're not going in 100% opening up a tool like chat GPT saying right, my little sales page. But you're, you're loading it up with what you know so that the human stamp on things, the things that I think that you need to be indelibly close to as the creator, your voice, having your positioning, your voice, your style, really know your mission, like you just said, knowing all that intimately as the owner, as the visionary, the CEO, but then also getting really, really close to what people are actually saying and how they're saying it and having a deep understanding of that. And I think the struggle is, and I know you talked about scaling on a recent show, the struggle is the more you scale, we tend to come out of some of the like listening categories, like we're not in the customer service box or we're not in the client back and forth. But a lot of times like that is the language we have to remember to speak like they do. And you put those little dog whistles in your copy. And so I think having acute knowledge of both of those pieces and then the third thing, having an understanding of even if you don't think you're the best copywriter, at least understanding that when you're arguing for a sale, messages need to hit in a certain type of order. Bringing that head knowledge to an AI tool is going to make you use it like the paintbrush that it really is. You know, you could put the paintbrush in the hand of a six year old, you get my six year old, you can get one kind of art, you put it in Degas hand, you get another type of art so that the AI tools are just tools and they're great. But if you can bring those kind of three things to the table, you're going to be better at adding that human fingerprint.
- [16:13]
B
I Am obsessed with this. And one thing that I think is so powerful and one of the ways that we've been using AI is we had to do all the initial groundwork, right? A brand voice guide. We have all of the mission statements and what we do and who we serve. We've done all of that work. And so when it has all of that foundational stuff as the input and you are clearly able to express that, then you actually have a working assistant that can help you. If you have not done any of that foundational work, the output is going to be garbage. It just is like the output is only as good as the input that it's given. And so even when it comes to copy, I love the breakdown because that's exactly how we think about it is like we want to create the first draft fully human. We want to go to the AI and ask for suggestions, we want to ask for clarity, we want to ask what are we missing here? And then we want to finish it off human. And that's how we've been using it because I agree. I think that people are discerning even more now and like sussing out like this sounds like everybody else or like, where did this come from? And so if you have that initial touch point and that end touch point, it's really just going to make your work better at the end of the day. Don't you agree?
- [17:38]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. You nailed it. People's BS meter is high and we, I feel like we're in a little bit of a trust recession with this point. We've all been burned by something you bought and it wasn't it like Amazon lied, whatever it was. We've had that moment. And so yeah, people are a little bit more skeptical. And so you can earn that trust with that human stamp with the storytelling aspect that only like, right, I tell people, write the headline, only you can write. Write the email, only you can write. And that is gonna, that's gonna build that trust. This comes into how long should my copy be? The longer form stuff earns you the opportunity to grow and build the trust. The short form, you need to be good at both. It's. I think it's a two things can be true at the same time sort of situation. You're going to need times and moments of short copy, but it's not that long. Copy doesn't work in a 2025 world. People will still read, they skim. And you have to write with. I call it eyeball monkey bars. You have to make things skimmable. You have to enable people to skip around as they read. But that is going to help you grow that trust that has been lost for so many people if you're able to spend time with them and communicate empathy and share your story and those little copy moments that only you could.
- [18:49]
B
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- [22:16]
A
Girl, that'll preach. That's so true. And I feel like we're not even at the top of making a bell curve with my hand right now. Like when it comes to AI and all just like the, the smattering of so much noise out there. Like we're not even at the top of the bell curve yet. And I do think people's hunger and thirst for like true substance is just going. It's that we always want the thing that's more rare, right? Like that's how we are. And so we're gonna want the, the true, the real that's gonna be more valuable. So go ahead and make that your edge now and get good at that. Get comfortable. Like I think I said it at the beginning how like information is a dime a dozen. If somebody wants to know how to like make sourdough or parenting hacks or whatever, like, they can find those. They can ask chat GPT. They want to know how you do it it. They want to know what your opinion is on it, we tell people in their homepage, have a moment. We call it the tough love toast, where you're like welcoming them into your website, giving them that glass of champagne. Welcome. Come on in. Also, here's my opinion on what I do. I am an expert. I've been doing this for a long time. And here's my philosophy on it. Don't be afraid to share that. That is the human aspect and the story aspect that you can communicate clearly that a word salad shot out by some AI tool, it's not going to be strong with that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
If it exists at all.
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B
I agree. And I'm like, okay, chat. GPT could tell me how to make sourdough. Do they actually know what it feels like to stick your hands in the dough? Do they know how to like, there's so many human components of everything that I think we're craving. One thing I'm curious about is like, in order to position ourselves in the market and help our audience actually see our uniqueness. And you touched on this because I agree. We're so close to our own genius that we don't even see it. How do we kind of mix these things we're talking about with clarity and storytelling? Because a lot of business owners struggle to balance the two. They're like, where do I tell stories? Where do I get to the point? How do we make our message compelling with avoiding that thing that kills it all, which is confusion.
- [24:15]
A
I love it. I like how we're focusing on clarity. And I'm from Alabama, so I can say it. But like, bless our hearts, we've been told story so much that I think now people are like, I don't. But like, how. What does that look like? And I think when we. If you could have a word picture. When somebody says the word story, you picture a book or tone, a thick paragraph. Like this gargantuan piece of writing that I think intimidates a lot of us who don't feel like natural writers. So when I say story, it can literally be an anecdote. And aside, a one line sentence story is just like this human. I think it's a CS Lewis quote when he said, like a friend is born. When somebody says, oh, you. Me too. Like, you're just having that little tiny moment. Story can be communicated in a picture. Like you could. I did that in an email campaign we shot out recently in my own business. Like, it's just that little moment. And then I always say, ssp story, segue pitch. So all you're going to do is Take that story moment. We do this in a lot of your emails. Segue, not like the little scooters. But a segue would be the moment where you say, it's kind of like building your email list. It's kind of like what that has to do with your blog right now or whatever you're trying to segue to. And then you pitch. And I like to. Again, this is kind of talking about email copy, but this could go for landing pages too. You always want to make it worth the price of entry to read email or read the sales page. Like that pitch include in there a learning a mindset shift that your offer I'll get. Like, this is a little 201 copywriting. You want to sell the sizzle, not the steak. So when you pitch, communicate the like, aha moment. And your offer, your service, your product is just the Aladdin magic carpet to get there faster. But when you're communicating that pitch, you're giving them a moment of like the light bulb. You want the light bulb to go off. And that is like, if you can use that SSP kind of framework. If story freaks you out, like, it's not. It's not some long narrative, really. We're just trying to have a moment where you can look your person in the eye and say, like, hey, me too. Or I know somebody just like you. And this is what she looked like. This is what she went through. Move right along.
- [26:25]
B
Yes. And I mean, story could literally be like, my six year old asked me where the color blue came from and I realized it was exactly how I felt when somebody told me I needed an email list.
- [26:36]
A
Like, that is why you're naturally.
- [26:39]
B
It can be so small. And what's interesting too is that I think oftentimes, and even sometimes I'm prone to do this where I could write the whole thing and then realize, like, it's kind of like if you jump on slack and you're like, hey, I need this quick template. And you forget the like, hello, good morning, how are you? Did you sleep well? Right. And naturally my brain does that where I have to go back in the email and add in the pleasantries and the niceties and the questions before the meeting.
- [27:11]
A
You're writing, though, with the purpose in mind, which. So you asked earlier about clarity. Like, that's how you make it clear. Because you start out, I write everything bottom up. I always start at the meat part. If it's meat and potatoes, like, I'm starting at the thing itself. And then I'll. Because I can figure out the other stuff, like, I can figure out how to get to the point. But I. I like that you said that because I think. And maybe that is a helpful hint for people to hear that. That freak out about writing. Like, write what you know first. And usually that's the bottom part of it. The offer, the ask the thing itself and then figure out what goes on top of it.
- [27:48]
B
And the story is so simple. Like, that's where. Yeah, I agree. If I'm like thinking of like, what is a story about email list building, it's like, okay, I have like two main story. But like, if you. Yes. Start with what is the end result here? And then think through like, well, when was the time that I was confused? Or when was the time that I sat and didn't take action? Oh, wow, that's suddenly so much easier. So I absolutely love that. Okay, so you have this framework that I love and it's around the four buyer types. Let's walk through that because this plays so well into what we're talking about right now.
- [28:25]
A
Okay. So I were both washed up corporate girlies when I was in corporate land. At one point I went through some training. I think we were trying to figure out how to. It was like some philanthropy, like pro bono training at my agency. And we learned like asking for money from people. There was like different brain styles of thinking. And so I had that like deposited in the back of my head. The years go by, I start my business, I'm writing copy and I'm thinking, like, suddenly these are coming up again in my head. And I'm realizing as I'm drafting especially long form copy that there's pieces of the whole. My truly, I believe there's about 16 levers psychologically that are pulled in a big marketing or launch campaign. And I was like, oh, my gosh. These are literally spliced up among these thinking styles. So now with everything I write, I'm always thinking of those. And again, this is why long form copy works. I'll go into the four styles, but you typically. I know, I sure do. You sell like you like to be sold to majority of us. If you like the facts and just the facts. Thank you, ma'am. Like, that is kind of how you're going to sell yourself. If you're more of the picture painter and the visionary, you're attracted to that. So the four types are. And I named them back in 2017. And now I'm like, well, here we are. We have a quiz for it. People have taken it. So I'm like, I can't change the names now, but they are. The first is sassy and strategic. So this type of person, type A type, they want to know where's the proof? What does this look like? The what is the big question for them. So when they're hitting a sales page they're wanting to know, okay, like what what? Like what days are the calls? What how is this going to look in my life? Can I see the insight? Can I see behind the scenes of this? What does this service actually look like? I'm booking you to do our brand for photos. Like what can you show me what does a day look like? The next one is the poised and polished type. This is also tends to be kind of a checklist type person. They want to know what is the plan and their big question is how does this work? So when they're approaching an email list course for instance, they really, they're the ones looking through module by module how out what is going on in this? Do I already have that somewhere else? Like they're your questions asker. They're looking at the FAQs very heavily, these two people. Proof matters big time for them because they are looking to poke holes in things. Next you've got the winsome charmer. This person is focused on the who. They want to know who can I serve when I get this? How can I serve others with this? Who does this affect in my circle when I purchases? Like what does it look like in my life, this one? And the next one I'm going to talk about a little bit more big picture thinkers. The next is the whimsical visionary. And this is the person that's really concerned with why does this matter? Most entrepreneurs fall into this category so when they purchase things they're always thinking about if you can show this person how it connects to their goals. They're in like they, they've got goals, they've got dreams, they are on a mission. Like you're either getting in the car and coming or not. So you yourself point with these people is to really explain how you're. This is classic, probably Joseph Campbell like Hero's Journey. You're the guide, baby. Like I'm gonna help you get exactly where you need to go. So each of these types, that's why you've got, you know, your case studies section or email and your FAQs and you've got that guarantee. Because the person who is really concerned with how's this going to work wants to make sure that there's an escape hatch if things Go wrong. So these different buyer types need to be taken into consideration in your marketing campaigns and in your copy. Because again, it comes back to you usually are going to sell like you like to be sold to and there's other people out there.
- [32:03]
B
Oh my gosh, this is so good. I will never forget this day. I still remember the conversation. I had a business coach and I love to like paint the possibility. Like naturally when I sell, I am like, imagine what this could be. And my business coach was the exact opposite. And he was like, I want to run from my past. Like, I want to escape what didn't work. And so what was fascinating to me is when we had this conversation, we were going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, right? It's like a ping pong ball. Like, well, but no, don't like, but if you just paint the possibilities, like, no, no, no, no. Like there's half of the population is just trying to get out of a situation or a thing that doesn't work for them or doesn't serve them. And so what was interesting is, and why I love these four different buyer types is a lot of times we are prone to only write copy to the person that we are, right? And so when I started looking at my sales pages, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, nowhere in this am I twisting the knife of what is hard. Nowhere in this am I pointing out the things that aren't working for somebody. And it really made us just have to reevaluate. And just like we were talking about, like copy isn't just like a one and done. It's like a moving, breathing, living phenomenon that needs to be visited and tinkered with and played with. And so I think that so many entrepreneurs right now are losing half of their sales because they are only speaking in maybe one of these ways. Like they're missing out on connecting with the people that are different than them that they could still absolutely serve and help. And so to me, I'm like, if you want to double your sales, like speak to both audiences. And I think that you kind of covered that so well. Of like, people make different purchasing decisions in different ways. And if you're not addressing their fears, their questions, their queries in your copy, you are losing people when you have their attention, which we know is so hard to get these days.
- [34:13]
A
That's so good. And yeah, like you said, like that is the argument for long form copy is no. 1, maybe your mom, but probably not reading your 5,000 word sales page or your whole website the point of the vehicle is to help the buyer to come alongside them and serve them. No matter what their propensity towards buying be like, they might be somebody who you just, they just, you need to hold their hand and tell them the facts. They might be the one who loves that. Imagine if type language. But we can come alongside both of them with some copy.
- [34:46]
B
Yeah, it's 2025 and we all know how loud the B2B marketing space has gotten. It's not just enough to run ads. You need to make sure that they're actually reaching the right people. That's why I love LinkedIn ads. You're not just throwing your message out and hoping it sticks. You can get super specific targeting by job title, industry or even the exact company you want to work with. There are over 130 million decision makers and 10 million C level execs on LinkedIn. These are the people who can actually say yes to your offer. And it's not just who you reach, it's the results you get. In the tech industry, LinkedIn ads delivered up to five times the return on ad spend compared to other platforms. I mean, 79% of B2B content marketers say LinkedIn gives them the best paid media results. So if you're ready to cut through the noise and get your ads in front of the people who matter, LinkedIn ads is the way to go. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. We'll even give you a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com goal to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com goal. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be. To be. So if somebody is listening to this right now and they're like, ooh, I really need to evaluate my copy, or maybe my copy is the thing that's not working. Where do they start? Like, what are the first three steps to fix their positioning and to help them make their copy more effective and actually generate real results.
- [36:19]
A
Okay, so step one is going to feel like you're not doing anything, but you are. You need to listen. I think getting like getting out there, not just looking at your competitors. And when I say competitors, I want to be clear that I'm talking more like what competes for the dog dollar with your competition or with your product? It's not always the person who does the same thing. It might. But where else may that dollar go if not to you and your business? So looking at those brands and businesses and what is the message that's being told to A customer from them, but also listening to them. How are they saying things? I think a lot of times people and I think our, you know, we've, you've been at this longer than me. We've seen the creative economy change and shift. And I would say that sometimes we can have an attraction to want to build the brand before the business. But you have to like go out there and build the business by listening to the problems that people actually have, how they say them, how they phrase it, like they will tell you exactly what they need. And so if you're struggling with your positioning, I think just going back to that and getting quiet and still and listening with that and just having kind of an open hand, being like, I may have to shift some things. The second thing that I would say that you need to do is go ahead and get clear. So this, so you've listened, you've gathered some data, you've heard what works and what doesn't work. Like go in and be ruthless in editing your own message. We did this, like I said, with my whole brand last year. I went through just a ton of life changes, move states, had a third kid, my mom was really sick and I all of a sudden looked at my business, I was like, this is not clear. This is not who I am anymore. This is, I have matured, I have changed some things. So get in there and get clear again. Ask for eyes on it. Like ask for peer feedback. You've got your business besties, hopefully you have a coach like get the captain hooks in there to just tear it down. That is a good thing. And then after you've done that, I would say number three is get clear on some pieces that you can use. As like I said earlier, tough love toast. Like what are your little statements that you're going to say and put out there? And we have to hear things over and over again. But like, and I, I tell people too. You can usually tell what those are when people say them back to you. So if you've been doing your thing for a while and you have a client that says, you know what, when you said this man, that stuck with me like, boom, put it in your bag, you're coming with me. Like that is a little statement that you can use. And so just having an awareness of what those like what can kind of your Rolodex of phrases be that you can then use as sound bites, I would say that's a good little three step plan to write the ship. If it feels a little arai.
- [38:48]
B
Yeah, I love this And I think it's such a reminder, too. I think we're spending so much time on social media and marketing. I mean, the average marketer is spending hours upon hours a week. And it's crazy to me because it's like if you're spending all that time just trying to get attention on platforms that don't necessarily want you to have it or don't want to send people off of the platform, when we actually get people that get our offers, see our offers get to evaluate if they want our offers, that is like the gold, right? Like, we are probably sitting on what could be gold mines, but we're mining in the wrong places. We're spending our time on the wrong words. And if our pages aren't converting, if they're not effective, I would say that that is where all your time and attention, like that reel that you were about to make and spend couple hours on, if you spent those hours going through your website, looking at heat maps, or asking your audience, what are they actually doing, or how would they describe what you do, or what three words come to mind when they think of you? That's where our time should be going. It just. Sometimes I think that we get so caught up in what is shiny and what people see that we forget how do we make people feel something? And I would argue that our copy, especially in the places that we own and can control, which is our websites and our landing pages and our sales pages, that is the gold. That's the gold. That's what actually is shiny, in my opinion.
- [40:25]
A
Yes, it's probably the most cost effective brand makeover you can give yourself. It's gonna take some sweat equity and time, but, like, you probably don't have to change the design or the look or the feel, the color palette, the imagery. It's probably a messaging problem that can be diagnosed and adjusted with a backspace key and some. Some brain juice.
- [40:45]
B
Yes, it's amazing. One thing that we've been doing in my business, and it has been absolutely working. And I think people might be shocked to know that we've not created a new offer since Ashlyn and I had our first babies, which is over six years ago. We have not, blows my mind, created anything new. And what's interesting is, is that I've fallen in love with the reinvention, the repositioning and the relaunching of the same things over and over again. And what's beautiful about that is that we have the bandwidth to get very granular and nitty gritty, to split test the different headlines or the different colors or the different subheadings and actually see what results are coming out of it. And there was so many years in my entrepreneurial journey where I was like, I ain't got time for that. I ain't got energy for that. But my challenge would be for people listening, is that you are probably already sitting on beautiful, amazing offers that have the opportunity to change people's lives in the way that you intended when you initially created them. And if you are not spending time with those and making them a dear friend in your own life, you are missing so much opportunity to not be constantly reinventing the wheel, to not be constantly starting from scratch and to leverage the things that are already existing and make them give you the impact that they were intended to make. So I don't know. This is just like a belief.
- [42:15]
A
Keep aligned on 30 seconds on that, everyone. And listen to that again, because that is. And I. You were asking me right before about, like, a recent trip I was on. The more I'm in business, the more I see, like, yeah, we think we have to build something new and add to our offer ladder and all this kind of stuff. But, like, true. A lot of people that we look up to and have a lot of success, they. I think Alex Hermosi talks about, like, the constraints, like, figure out what are the constraints on the thing you already have that is probably really good and really useful for people and do. Like we've done with you, is you have enough. Enough data at this point to where, you know, some people ask me, they're like, I don't even have, like, I don't know how to measure for conversions or I don't know how to look at this one. We don't have enough data there yet. You hadn't sold it enough yet. So, like, that is. That's where the game really gets fun. I love. I'm gonna have to listen to that again. Yeah. Double down. Double and triple down.
- [43:04]
B
Double down. And I think, too, it's like, in a world that is all obsessed with, like, new and I think with entrepreneurs who essentially crave chaos, which is something that a lot of us innately do, either intentionally or unintentionally, we are chasing the wrong things. And so when I think about our conversation in terms of copy and positioning, if you can fall in love with the science of those two pieces, with the things that are already created and in existence, I would argue that your business will transform and also your life will transform because you are not constantly on the hamster wheel of Starting fresh. There are very few times that I would argue that people need to scrap everything and move forward. And I want to make it so popular and awesome of, like, leveraging the things that you've already built and actually just getting them in front of the people you intended it for so that it can actually make the difference you wanted it to make. And so I just think that when we look at my business and the ways that we've grown and we've continued to grow, it isn't in the new offers. It's in the things that we're talking about today and figuring out, okay, what is the positioning and what is the thing that people are running from or running towards and how do we communicate that? And so if people are sleeping on this, it is. Is. It's not an easy tweak, but it is absolutely doable. And it's probably easier than starting to create something from the ground up.
- [44:42]
A
Yes. You already have spaghetti that's stuck to the wall. You know what works and what didn't work. And the failures were not like. It's just more data points for you. I love how you said, like, fall in love with the science of positioning, because it really is. It is. You will feel like a mad scientist in a lab, like, will light you up. It can be so fun. And you don't have to build anything new. You just have to. It's. It's about testing and getting in there and getting a little dirty. And it's fun.
- [45:06]
B
Yeah. Since I know my listeners love, like, an actionable takeaway, I think there's been so many actions in this episode. What is one simple shift that they could make today to instantly strengthen their.
- [45:18]
A
Messaging look for when somebody tells you something back, like, train your eyes to understand and grab on and you can put it. I copy Bank. Like, I don't really. And people ask me sometimes, how do you copy Bank? I don't care. It can be your notes app, can be Evernote File. Like, use whatever tool you already use, but start pocketing phrases. When people. You want to build out a good library of just having. When people phrase something a certain way, but especially about you and your offer and what you do. So learning and hearing. When people say, you know, like I said earlier, that client when you said this, I got it. Oh, when you said that, like, I remembered it because that is a boom. That is a headline. That is a crosshead on your page. Like, that is an email. Those are the moments that, you know, like that spaghetti, it stuck to the wall. So use that. So I would say, like, look for those moments or if you don't have those yet, start getting more comfortable saying things and having like we have said a few times now, people crave insight rights people, people crave just the, the nuance and the substance and like your take on things. So start to put that out more. The more you can put that out, the more you'll have feedback back.
- [46:29]
B
And people love to give their opinions, so give them opportunities to give their opinions. Right. Like I even know there's a few creators that I follow and like before they launch a new podcast episode, they'll be like, hey, we're naming this episode which one would you be most likely to listen to? And then people, people feel a part of the process, but people love to voice their opinion. So if you are not ear to the ground hearing things, ask the questions that will guide you to hear them. Because people will love to make their voices heard if you give them the opportunity and if they know that you're actually leaning in and listening to them.
- [47:03]
A
I like how you just said that, how remember that you can co create copy and messaging and positioning with your audience, like letting them have some take in it. I'm rereading that show your work book and yeah, he just talks about like when you put stuff out there, you can have that two way conversation and your, your audience can kind of be your best co producer of the stuff that you put out there if you give them the chance. And their insight can be very, very valuable.
- [47:27]
B
Yeah. Before we ever do webinars, we always bring up at least three or so titles and ask our audience, which one would you sign up for? And it's like, not only is that a part of a pre launch strategy of like, hey, something's coming, but it's also like so insightful because it could just be like one word is different or it's the same thing said in a different way and one will just like outshine the rest. Is always shocking to me how it lands that way, but that's the power of positioning. Speaking of the power of positioning, Ashlyn, you have something coming up. Tell me what's happening. I know last year we had thousands of our listeners jump on and join you. And guys, if you don't realize this, Ashlyn has not only been in my life for a decade, but she, she is behind a lot of our conversion copywriting in my brand. And when I say conversion copywriting, I'm talking about copy that sells, that leads to results. And so if there is anybody to learn from, I Literally just sent one of my dearest friends over to Ashlyn because I was like, this is where you need to go. So, Ashlyn, what do you have coming up where people can learn more from you?
- [48:31]
A
Okay, I think I'm on a mission. I'll just say it to make positioning sexy again. So we'll talk about copy. I'm going to do the Copycat clinic masterclass and we're going to talk about five pieces specifically of messaging that you need in your copy kit, you need in your copy caboodle. But a lot of this is going to be positioning statements and help you figure out how in the world do you say how you do what you do differently or better than somebody that does the same thing? I think a lot of entrepreneurs, if I asked you that straight up, put a mic in front of your face, freeze up a little bit. But you have to figure that kind of thing out. And then we can lean on tools. Tools. Tools like AI templates, all sorts. Like the copywriting piece of it, we can absolutely figure out. But we're going to focus this class on some of those messaging components. So I'm going to teach this again. I'm so excited. I did it last year. Bringing it back.
- [49:17]
B
Yes. Oh my. Look at this. This is what we were just talking about. Bring your greatest hits back because not only do you make the best impact with them, but you're also able to get people to pay attention because they they've heard it before. And now this is your year to take action. I will tell you that good copywriting in 2025 is no longer optional. It is a non negotiable if you want to be in business a year from now.
- [49:42]
A
Yes.
- [49:42]
B
This is the stuff that you need to be spending your time on. This is the stuff that we are making sexy and shiny again. Because at the end of the day, this is the stuff that is going to help you get money into your bank account. It is these tiny little things that people often overlook that will make all of the difference. So you can save your seat for Ashlyn's free copy clinic at jennacutcher.com forward/copywriting. Again, that's jennicutcher.com forward slash copywriting. We'll also link it for you in the show notes and description. Ashlyn, final question of the day. What is something that you are excited about? It can be life, business. What's something that is exciting to you right now?
- [50:22]
A
Well, I love being a mom. I feel like and learning the game of being a mom with the business is A whole thing. I have a sourdough starter that's sitting on my counter that I just opened yesterday. I'm okay, so I'm, I'm entering. I'm gonna call it my scrunchie era. So I'm like semi crunchy and I'm dabbling. I'm on my journey, but I'm excited about that. We're probably gonna do that with the kids this weekend. And I just, I love. They're changing so fast and so soaking up. I have a 6, 3 year old and a 1 year old old.
- [50:50]
B
So text me all the sourdough questions. It is also, you do this right now. It is a slippery slope. The chickens are coming soon for you, Ashlyn, because in a couple weeks.
- [51:03]
A
So I'll tell Wes.
- [51:05]
B
Here we go. Here we go, baby. Buckle up. Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited for your copywriting clinic. I will be there per usual. I'm always there cheering you on. And I just, just am so excited for our listeners to make their copies super clear, to avoid confusion, to make this the year where it is. Copy that converts. Because at the end of the day, you can have the best offer on planet Earth. And if you cannot clearly communicate it, no one is going to be taking advantage of it. And you won't get to make the impact that you were born to make. So thank you, Ashlyn Carter, for your return appearance. I love you so much and I'm so excited for people to learn more from you.
- [51:43]
A
Thank you, Jenna. So grateful and love you too.
- [51:46]
B
I hope you heard the conviction in my voice today. I just have experienced the power of good copy and I am obsessed with Ashlyn because all these years ago, she really brought it into my life and has taught me how to know how to continue to refine and rework the words that we're using in order to to continue to get the results that we want to get. As a quick reminder, save your seat right now. I can tell you that you will learn so much from Ashlyn. I have paid her so much money over the years to write incredible copy, and now you can learn from her for free. Head to Jenna kutcher.com forward/copywriting. That's Jenna kutcher.com forward slash copywriting so that you can attend her copy kit clinic. This is a free masterclass in all the things we talked about today and so much more. More. I will be there cheering her on. I love learning from her. She always has hot takes on what is working right now. And that is exactly what I want to know and I hope that you join me inside again. Last time Jenna kutcher.com forward/copywriting I'll see you in the copy kit clinic. I hope you love today's episode as much as I loved recording it. Thank you so much for hitting play on another episode of the Gold Digger podcast. And of course, until next time, keep on digging your biggest goals. Thanks for pulling up a seat for another episode of the Gold Digger podcast. I hope today's episode fueled you with inspiration, gave you information that you can turn into action, and realigned you with your true north in life and business. If you've enjoyed today's episode, head on over to goldiggerpodcast.com for today's show notes, discount codes for our sponsors, freebies to fuel your results, and so much more. And if you have, make sure you're subscribed so that you never miss a future show. We'll see you next time, Gold Diggers Please note, this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements, and individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in the episode. Your support through affiliate links or sponsored content helps us continue to bring you valuable content. Thank you for being a part of the Gold Digger community.