← The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
875: 2025 Launch Playbook: What’s Changing, Why Trust Matters, and How to Stay Ahead with Amy Porterfield
00:48:00
With Amy Porterfield and Jenna Kutcher
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- [00:02]
Jenna Kutcher
Summer is quickly coming and if you're anything like me, your time is about to evaporate. So here's the question. Do you have just one hour a week? Let me answer that for you. Yes, you do. And that's all you need to start transforming your content strategy. Most entrepreneurs are spending 20 hours a week creating content that disappears in minutes. Let's fix that. Join me for a totally free and live training called Create Once Traffic for Months. The one Hour Pinterest Plan to extend your content's lifespan, you can snag your free seat@teachmetopin.com now this is the kind of set it and forget it marketing that keeps working while you take a step back. It even works beautifully if you choose to outsource it. You've already created the content, so let's make sure it keeps working for you, bringing in traffic, email subscribers and leads from people who are actually searching for what it is that you offer. I'm a verified Pinterest educator and I've helped over 25,000 entrepreneurs do exactly this. Now let me help you grab your free spot right now@teachmetopin.com that's teachmetopin.com and trust me, your future summer self will be thanking you. This episode is brought to you by Shippo, your one stop solution for shipping labels helping small businesses save up to 90% off retail rates for a limited time. Shippo is offering listeners $25 in Shippo credit when you spend your first $25. So shipping your first few packages is basically free. Years ago I ran a print giveaway for my wedding photography clients. Now this sounds simple. Send out a few framed photos as a thank you. But the response was wild. I ended up sending out stacks of orders and handwritten notes and boxes were piling up on my kitchen table. I essentially had no system. It was just me, some stamps and a lot of stress. That is why I love Shippo. It is designed for small businesses like mine. You can print shipping labels in batches, track orders, manage returns, and sync with all your online stores from one clean dashboard. And with access to discounted rates from USPS, UPS and FedEx. Plus a free starter plan. When you only pay for what you ship, it makes fulfillment way less overwhelming. Head over to shippo.com gold digger and claim your spend 25 get 25 offer today. That's shippo.com golddigger.
- [02:29]
Amy Porterfield
We reworked all of our avatars. So we looked at all of our avatars and said is this still true? Because you have to remember if you're evolving as a business owner, as a marketer, as a person. Your audience is evolving with you. Are they still the same person that you set out to serve initially?
- [02:49]
Jenna Kutcher
I'm Jenna Kutcher, your host of the Goal Digger podcast. I escaped the corporate world at the age of 23 with nothing more than a $300 camera from Craigslist and a dream. Now I'm running a seven figure online business that feels even better than it looks. All from my house in small town Minnesota with my here. We value time as our currency. We mix the woo and the work and we are in the pursuit of building businesses that give us the freedom to live lives that we love. I've always loved turning big goals into reality and I'm here to help you do the same. This isn't just a peek behind the curtain. Come along with me and my guests as we tear the whole curtain down. Every week we tackle practical, no fluff marketing strategies and host honest discussions on what works and what doesn't. Join me and my expert guests for actionable insights to help you grow your dream business with confidence. Pull up a seat and get ready to be challenged, inspired and empowered. This is the Goal Digger podcast. For over a decade. I'm talking years upon years, Amy Porterfield has been my unofficial business mentor turned best friend. And let's just say there is no one I talk shop with more. We have daily convos about what's working, what's changing, what we're working on, and how we're navigating the shifts in online business. And in 2025, it is all about agility, strategy and getting creative with how we show up. In today's episode, Amy and I are diving into the biggest trends we're noticing the shifts we're making in our businesses and yes, why Pinterest is having a major moment right now. If you're looking for a way to drive more traffic without constantly creating new content, well, I've got you covered. My free training Create Once traffic for months. My 1 hour Pinterest strategy to 120x your life is ready for you to sign up at teachmetopin.com that's teachmetopin.com for my free masterclass. Also, if you love this conversation, you are going to love Amy's podcast. She recently rebranded it as the Amy Porterfield show. And if you haven't been tuning in yet, this is your sign to start. All right, without further ado, let's get into it.
- [05:01]
Amy Porterfield
Okay, Jenna, let's talk about lead gen and how it's not harder, it's just different, right?
- [05:08]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes. Okay.
- [05:09]
Amy Porterfield
Okay.
- [05:09]
Jenna Kutcher
So one of the things we've been talking about that I think is really interesting is I feel like the way that we generate leads is evolving. And I think what is exciting about that is it's giving us more clarity on what works best and how do we show up and serve better. And it's been really interesting, I think, because I finally took notes from you just like five years later, I don't know, of getting really good data and tracking. And so I feel like for so many years in my business, I was kind of just like, throwing darts at the wall and, like, seeing what was going to work. And once we started really tracking things, it was giving us so much information that was allowing us to, like, see the strategy bigger. And so one of the trends that we started noticing, I think it was kind of middle of last year to end of last year into this year, was just that, like, the split between organic leads and paid leads was getting wider. Where I felt launches, it was like 50, 50 for a lot of launches, where it was like 50% people already in your audience, either on your email list or following you on social. 50% paid. And it felt like it was getting wider where paid traffic was more responsible for helping us to hit the goals that we were setting.
- [06:23]
Amy Porterfield
Same.
- [06:23]
Jenna Kutcher
Just a peculiar shift. Why do you think that is? Like, let's kind of dig deeper because we see it in the numbers. So it's like, now, let's kind of dig in past the numbers.
- [06:33]
Amy Porterfield
Okay, so first of all, I gotta take a pause. What you just said is so valuable, especially for our listeners. You have to know your numbers. Here's the thing. You don't have to worry about what everyone else is doing. You don't have to worry about the trends. You don't have to worry about, like, how you compare. If you know your numbers and you're competing essentially with yourself, you'll see the trends, the patterns, things that are happening. You'll catch them faster. So, Jenna, I love how detailed you've gotten about your data, because now when we talk, you're like, okay, here's what I'm seeing. And it actually is so spot on with the industry. But you've decided it from your own data, which I love. But I just wanted to take a moment for that. One thing that you've taught me is that we are noticing that people on social media just are not seeing our content. So we've attracted them. They are there organically. We are loving up on them, but they are not seeing our content as much. So when we say, like some people are saying organic's not working anymore. Not necessarily. But I don't want to steal your thunder because this was your idea. What do we need to do if organic isn't responding like it used to?
- [07:40]
Jenna Kutcher
Well, you could never steal my thunder. This is just one of those things. And it, you know, it's so interesting because I think social just feels a little bit harder. And that doesn't mean that you get rid of it. Right. Like, what's so funny to me is that all of the things that I teach are to, like, help people get off of social, but I need to meet them where they are. Right? And so, you know, even after a recent launch. Cause I'm like, creating all the content. I'm going to my ads person, like, if I just stop doing social, will the business still run? And she's like, no. Because even if people click on an ad and they go to your profile and you're not actually talking about your offers, it's not going to. The dots will not be connected. And so it's like, we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. But I think it's really interesting. So I think there are a few different things. So one organic reach is down across the board for everyone. So if you are feeling like nobody is seeing, nobody is liking, nobody is engaging with your content, I just want to, like, calm you and say, like, it's not just you. And sometimes it helps me to look at really big accounts and realize, like, oh, my gosh, they're also not getting in front of their audience. It's not just me. And so it is still a powerful strategy, and I think it's a necessity to a point. But I also think that you can bridge the gap a lot with different paid ad strategies. And so one of the things I have been thinking about is like, how are we leveraging paid ads to get in front of our organic audience? Because your organic audience is naturally going to be way warmer than cold lead. That is just seeing something just being introduced to you. And so how do we kind of combine those two and make a hybrid of, like, using paid ads to get in front of the people who are already warm for you, so that you're not only hitting your numbers with just cold traffic. Now the other thing that we found with our last launch, which was like, so exciting and compelling, is that our Pinterest ads greatly outperformed our meta ads.
- [09:38]
Amy Porterfield
And I thought this was wild.
- [09:41]
Jenna Kutcher
So wild. And yeah, I 1. It gave me like an exhale in a beautiful way, because I think so many people have all their eggs in one basket, which is meta. And I think that's a little scary for a lot of us because, you know, we can control certain aspects of it, but we can't necessarily control cost per lead and how that will pan out. And so what was super exciting is that our cost per lead on Pinterest was about half of what our cost per lead was on meta, meaning Facebook and Instagram. And we tracked it all the way through the launch and it converted just as well. And so it felt really good to me that, like, okay, we use Pinterest organically. Pinterest is the number one organic drive driver of traffic to our website and our blog and our content. But to also use it in a paid capacity and see amazing results was really exciting. And I think most people listening to our shows have a similar ideal audience, and that demographic is likely on Pinterest as well. And so I already love Pinterest. I'm obsessed with it. But this through the obsession to the next level, because I'm like, I have been trying to reach people through Facebook ads and Instagram ads for years and years and years. I am now getting exposed to a new audience in a new way, and it's tracking and converting the same way.
- [11:00]
Amy Porterfield
Okay, so you heard it here. Pinterest ads work. And I know you had told me that they're like half the cost of meta ads. So right there, a lot of our audience, they don't yet have a lot of money to put toward paid advertising. So if your audience is on Pinterest, you absolutely need to check this out. And so I just want to reiterate because I think the two points are really important. Number one, consider running ads to your audience, the audience you've already attracted on, let's say, social media. And you might say, Amy, why? They're already on my list. I'm not going to run an ad to a lead magnet if they're already on my list. Oh, yeah, you are, because you're reengaging them. If you really honest. We have a lot of people on our email list that are not opening up our emails. However, if we start engaging them on social and they see our email pop up, we're more front of mind. So I think that is a really strong strategy. And then, of course, diversify. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. You have other options than just Facebook and Instagram ads.
- [12:02]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah, I love that too, because I feel like when I look at Pinterest users versus social media users, social media users are usually there to be, like, distracted and entertained, whereas Pinterest users are actively looking for solutions. So Pinterest isn't a social media platform. It's a search engine. So people use it just like they use Google. And so the person that is on Pinterest is more poised to be in a position to engage, to be educated, to get into your ecosystem. And so I think too, when we kind of look at, like, the end results of each platform, Pinterest is a pretty amazing and compelling place to be in terms of reaching people that are looking for solutions to problems that you might be able to solve. So I just feel like that piece of the puzzle is interesting. And also with this topic, something that we were talking about, we recently had a team retreat, and we were just talking about, you know, the way we're generating leads is evolving, and we're seeing a greater amount of cold traffic. And so how does that challenge us to be so crystal clear in our copy? How are we so speaking a little bit differently? How are we not assuming that this person knows anything about us, our expertise, or our process? And I think a lot of times we approach launches as, like, of course you've listened to every podcast episode, of course you've read every email. And so it should challenge us as creators in an exciting way to make sure that, like, every piece of copy, every landing page, every webinar slide, like, we are very clear, and we're not coming at it from a place of assuming. And ultimately, I think it's going to help that colder traffic convert better, but it's also going to add clarity for our warmer audience because they might be, like, passively following. But when you get so crystal clear, I think it's going to actually improve conversions across the board, and it's ultimately going to make us better marketers.
- [13:58]
Amy Porterfield
Okay, speaking of getting crystal clear with your messaging, I think we even step back a little bit more. And what we did in our business in January and February this year is we reworked all of our avatars. So we looked at all of our avatars and said, is this still true? Because you have to remember, if you're evolving as a business owner, as a marketer, as a person, your audience is evolving with you. Are they still the same person that you set out to serve initially? And there might be some just tiny little nuances, but we really dug into. We have four different avatars, and we dug into each one of them. Use chat, GPT to bring them to life in a new way, examine them in different ways so that we could create new messages, messaging. And I feel like our messaging got stronger from reevaluating all of our avatars. So it starts with your avatar, then your messaging, and then of course, you're going to see it out in social media through email marketing, your sales page, all of that.
- [14:55]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes. We did a very similar exercise and we were all together. Yes. And I think it is such a good point too, is it's like, it's not enough to just be like, lead generation is changing. It's like, no, how are we changing? And like, how is our client changing? And maybe that is signaling a lack of connection or maybe it's signaling like this disconnection between the way you're speaking to them and the way they speak of themselves or their own problems. And so that was actually too, where we spent the majority of our time is like talking about, like, what is in alignment for me as the leader, but then also, like, what is true for the people that we're helping. And so I agree, it's like lead generation might be like the top of the iceberg, but it's like, right, hey, how does this actually make us better as a company, as a brand, as communicators, as marketers? And I think that ultimately all of those tweaks are going to really show up in results and also just show up in the way that we serve.
- [15:54]
Amy Porterfield
You cannot lose if you know exactly who you're talking to and how to get into their head and really serve them. So this is worth your time.
- [16:03]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [16:03]
Amy Porterfield
Avatar messaging, examining who are you and how do you want to serve? All of it matters right now.
- [16:10]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah. And that will all connect in to what your lead generation ends up looking like and how it pans out. So it all is connected in a beautiful little web. Okay.
- [16:20]
Amy Porterfield
Absolutely.
- [16:21]
Jenna Kutcher
The next thing that we were texting about and I want you to go deep on this is, okay, show up rates. So this is something so interesting, and I think it can feel slightly isolating if you're like in a launch and you're like, oh, my gosh, show up rates are a little bit different than they used to be. Is it just me? Are people not, like, coming to the party? And so let's talk about just the shifts in show rates and what that means for us.
- [16:46]
Amy Porterfield
Okay. So years ago, someone would sign up for a free training, let's say a webinar, and without much effort, they would get on that webinar. I remember the days that it was never an issue. Are enough people going to show up? If I saw a thousand people sign up, I knew I was getting a lot of people to show up on that webinar. It's a different situation. You know, some people are seeing 20, 25% show up rate and they're frustrated. But I want to back us up. I'm going to say something, Jenna, that's kind of for this whole conversation. I was in a mastermind with my mastermind and there's this woman, Melissa Hanault, and she said, Amy, what I'm seeing, because she does kind of similar things to what we do, Jenna, she said, I'm seeing a trust recession. People are less trusting Now. I don't know exactly why. You could say it's, you know, what's happening in politics in the US you could say it's with AI and people are like, am I talking to a bot or am I talking to a person? You could say it's a lot of different things. I actually don't think any of that matters. I think it's very true. Would you agree that we could be in a trust recession, Jenna?
- [17:53]
Jenna Kutcher
Oh, totally. Totally. Right. Think that that is what we are coming up against, which I think is kind of exciting. I don't know.
- [18:02]
Amy Porterfield
Right. Right there. I think there's a lot of opportunity here. So if we are thinking, okay, we need to build more trust so that people show up for our webinars, they want to sign up for our freebies, they get into our courses and our memberships. I think one of the most important things is more personalization. And with that personalization, more touch points.
- [18:24]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes.
- [18:25]
Amy Porterfield
The more people can feel seen and heard by you, and even if it's not a hundred percent organic, like in the moment, but they feel seen and heard by the personalization you're putting out there, the better. So here's a little example. If I'm on DMS and I'm chatting with people in social media, I will make the effort to send a voice message so they know 100% that they're talking to me. I can't do this for everybody. And this is like a scrappy way of doing it, but I want them to know it's me, I'm here for you. Because if they connect with me that way, they're more likely, let's say, to get on a webinar. So personalization and really making sure that people feel seen and heard and you have multiple touch points. So when I say multiple touch points, I'm talking about maybe you're using text to remind them to get on. You're emailing a little bit more than maybe you usually do. We have a whole sequence of the minute you signed up for one of our webinars. We have a sequence of emails that go out from the time you sign up to the minute we go live. Like, we're live now. Show up. All of that is dialed in before we even get the webinar going. And then, of course, you can use social media. And, Jenna, if anyone's listening and they have a small audience and they're just getting started. I know a lot of my students have used bombbomb, so B o m B o m b to record personalized videos saying, I can't wait to see you on the webinar. Here's one thing that I want you to pay close attention to when we go live. Blah, blah, blah. See you there. I'm talking one to two minute video. But they're sending these to individual people. I know that we can't do that, Jenna, but when I was first starting, I could have.
- [20:05]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah, I love this because I think that a lot of times, especially with, like, social media and different things like, that, we want to, like, hit the masses. And I think the masses are awesome. Right? But, like, if you forget that there are individual humans with individual needs and desires, you're kind of missing the point. And if we kind of remove that idea of, like, I am just, like, sprouting out information and, like, whoever it hits, it's gonna hit. And we actually get back to, like, the heart of, like, what does this person actually want and how do we make this very valuable and how do we help encourage them to show up? It changes the entire relationship. It changes the energy behind it. So I agree. And I think one thing that we've been seeing even amongst our peers is just, like, people being willing to be more scrappy. And what we mean by scrappy is like, getting in the trenches is what I call it is like getting in with people and hearing, where are you at and what is the struggle? And being honest of, like, do I have the solution for you or not? Like, I will never tell somebody, and I know you're the same way. To join a program that is not the right fit for them, that does not benefit anybody. And so having that more customized approach and one thing that we always see with launches is everyone thinks they're special. And I love this. I love that. That is, like, human trait of, like, sure, it worked for you, and it's worked for thousands of Other people, but you don't know me. Like, there's something special meaning this isn't going to work. And I think that when we think about that trust recession, that is ultimately because people have made decisions and choices that ultimately were not the right fit for them or they didn't get the results they wanted. And so for us as leaders, I think it makes us have to be super explicitly clear of here is the end result that you can expect and here is why you should show up. Like, this is why this is very valuable to you. You don't want to have just like three random bullet points explaining your training. And like, they don't necessarily tie to like the end desire of somebody on it. And then I also think it gives us an opportunity to surprise and delight. Like, how can we make this an even better experience when it's live? How can we acknowledge the people that are live with us? How can we give them a special bonus for giving up their time and showing up while we're on? And so I just think it changes the energy around it from being like, okay, I need to get so many people signed up so that I can get that natural attrition so I can hit the numbers to be like, well, how do I make this valuable so people will not miss it? And I think that's a really interesting shift.
- [22:44]
Amy Porterfield
Absolutely. I love that you said that. Let's stop thinking I need more, more, more. Let's really love up on and support the people that are paying attention. I think that goes a long way. And I was thinking of something that I teach my students. It's called the Invisible Bridge. Essentially, it's all about meeting your audience where they are at today, knowing that, let's say three months down the line you're going to promote a course, a membership about xyz. So if you, let's say you have three months, you know, right now, where are they? And the question to ask yourself is, how can you get them prepared to say yes the minute you have a webinar? So not the course. I'm not even at the course yet. I'm at the webinar. How do you get them from where they are today? Three months from now, you open up your webinar, whatever the topic is, they're like, yes, I need that. But they're not in a place today to say, yes, I need that. So what is it that you need to teach them, help them believe, change their perspective on in order for them to say, when you're ready to fill up your webinar, oh my gosh, I've been waiting for a training like that. So think of all the objections, the concerns, the fears that they have. Address them now because one of the things that Jenna and I talk a lot about is that going on the journey with them and warming your audience up way before you ever do your webinar. So let me give you an example. When I have a webinar about how to create and launch a digital course to sell dca, before I ever do that webinar, one of the things I'm warming my audience up on is coming up with a digital course idea. Because one of their objections is, Amy, I can't get on a webinar about how to create and launch a course. I don't even have an idea. But if they have the idea, it's an instant yes. I'm ready for that. So how do you get the instant yes for your webinars, your trainings, your calls, you're warming up the audience and you're having them cross the invisible bridge where they are and where you want them to go. Does that make sense, Jenna?
- [24:43]
Jenna Kutcher
Totally. Totally. I think we think so. Similarly too is like, you know, before a launch, I think the pre launch is so important. And I also think that will help solve this shift a little bit more too is like how you show up in the pre game, it's going to change how you play in the game. Right. And you know, we do very similar to you, Amy, where it's like we're upping our lead generation around different freebies that will help with the topic. And then it's kind of like the webinar is seeing is believing. Right. Like you can see the downloads and you can get the steps and stuff, but like sometimes having somebody walk you through it and having you see it and learn it in a different way is helping you cross that bridge to be ready to take that next step. And so I have been texting a few different friends who are in different launches and I'm like, you know, for show up rates, like plan out more intimate touch points.
- [25:36]
Amy Porterfield
Yes.
- [25:36]
Jenna Kutcher
Make sure that you incentivize people to show up live. Like make sure there is something special that will either happen on the live or that they will receive for being live. And also think about different ways that you can communicate with them, whether it would be text message or through Instagram, DMS or through email. Because I don't know about you. Like I have ADHD and I can have a thing on my calendar. The other day I had a call on my Calendar. And I was like, yeah, sitting down, ready for the call. And then all of a sudden I get sidetracke and I look up and I'm like, oh, my gosh, the calls are like five minutes ago. And so thinking of just, like, different ways to gently nudge and remind, and not just remind about the training, but remind about the value and the end promise that someone can get. The more that you can reiterate that, the more likely they are to show up and get that value that you've created.
- [26:26]
Amy Porterfield
Absolutely. One more thing I want to say before we move on to our next shift is I was on a call with one of my students, and she has a program to help people become avid runners, run marathons and. And different types of experiences as a runner. But she said, amy, what I just realized with, let's say the invisible bridge is they don't believe they're runners. They're not calling themselves avid runners yet. And my program is for people that feel that they're avid runners. So her whole invisible bridge is to change their identity. By the time she's ready to do that webinar, they feel as though they are avid runners. They've taken on that identity. So all of her content from now until then is to change their identity for them or help them change their identity. So just start thinking about different ways you can address your audience now. Where are they? I think the biggest question right now is where is your audience right now and where do you want them to go and how do you get them there? And I think Jenna's idea of multiple lead magnets throughout the next few months, different touch points. That's exactly how we do it as well. 100.
- [27:32]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah, I love that.
- [27:34]
Amy Porterfield
Okay, so the next shift, Jenna, is a wild one. I never actually thought I'd be saying this. We noticed it about a year ago, and so I think it's going to be continuing. And it is. If you've launched for a while, this one you're going to know smaller cart close days. Like, we are seeing less sales on cart clothes. We're not seeing necessary less sales in the launch. The way people are buying is shifting. So with that, we have to adjust how we sell. So let's talk about that one.
- [28:04]
Jenna Kutcher
Oh, this one's a doozy, right? Doozy. Okay. So I'll never forget, Amy, like, listening to your show years and years ago before I'd ever launched a single thing. And, like, I just will remember you talking about cart close day because, I mean, there was a time where you could get up to like 50 of your sales on that last day.
- [28:22]
Amy Porterfield
Like car closed day was the best.
- [28:24]
Jenna Kutcher
Day, best day ever. Like, especially because you know, if you do webinar launches those days, you're expending a lot of energy where cart close days, it feels like it's just coming back to you. Right? Yeah, that has changed. And I also started to notice it. And I'll remember I was around summertime last year and I was closing up a launch and I was traveling for that cart close date, which is not typical. It was just how my, my calendar aligned. And I remember like seeing our goals and being like, okay, what, what's going on? And I was like, maybe it's, maybe it's going to happen a little later. Okay, maybe it's like last minute. And it was just like, that was peculiar. I remember we kind of ended that launch just by stumped. Like, that was weird.
- [29:05]
Amy Porterfield
Yes.
- [29:05]
Jenna Kutcher
And then it happened in the fall and then it happened at the beginning of this year. And so what's interesting is that what this is representing is just a change in buyer behavior. Right. It's not representing like a change in launching at all. We still get a significant portion of sales, but, but it's not necessarily like 40%. It's more like 25% of our sales. And so what has been really interesting for us is when we finish up webinars, our goal is to be at like 50% of our goals. So get people onto the trainings, serve them so well during the trainings, sell really well, convert well. And so by the time those live webinars are done, our goal in our business is to be around 50%. Now what has shifted is since cart closes smaller, the shift that we need to make as marketers is figuring out what are we doing between that final webinar and before cart close, how are we showing up, how are we communicating, how are we creating open ended conversations, how are we incentivizing, how are we giving bonuses? Like, what is that experience? And I feel like for a long time those days were kind of throwaway days. I don't, I don't say that in a negative way. I just say it in a way of like there wasn't a ton of thought. You know, you lead up so much into the webinars and then you lead up so much into cart close day. Now those days are extremely valuable and extremely important. And so it's like again, how do we surprise and delight? How do we help people make a decision? And one thing I think that is interesting and I'm curious about is, like, with the shift in buyer behavior, part of me wonders, okay, are people just more certain at the beginning? Like, are people just more confident in the decision making process or have they gotten used to not making a decision at all? And that's, like, the psychology part of me that's, like, fascinated of, like, are we either just more decisive or are we letting things like deadlines make decisions for us? And if you've ever been in that second camp, I want to just invite you that 2025 should be your year where you just make decisions. You make confident decisions. Whether it's a yes or a no, it doesn't matter. But I think that the people that I know that are most successful are people that are confident decision makers. And so I'm just curious about, like, buyer behavior and what that says. But essentially for us, in terms of, like, the strategy shift is, like, now we're looking at that window differently between the final webinar and cart close day and asking ourselves, okay, what is the most valuable way we can show up and how can we help somebody make that decision before those final hours?
- [31:46]
Amy Porterfield
Yes. I love that. Absolutely. And another thing I was thinking about is, let's say we're seeing smaller cart close days.
- [31:54]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [31:55]
Amy Porterfield
So if that's the case and we know that, then what can we do earlier on front loading? More urgency, more clarity. I actually think it's clarity. If people understand the offer sooner, they don't have to wait until the very last day. So ask yourself, how can I help them understand the offer sooner? This is such a tiny tweak, Jenna, but I've started to do this a little bit differently in my webinars. At the end, during my Q and A, I will go into the members area of my program and answer the question by showing them the proof. Because if we're in a trust recession, if they can see inside the program. This is everything I promised you. Remember I said I'd give you xyz, here's proof that I will. So if they ask a question like, well, Amy, are you really going to show us the entire calendar of how to do a digital course launch? Actually, I am. Let me go into the members area. Let me click around a little bit. Boom, there's your calendar. Everything you need to know. And so I just literally prove to somebody that I'm delivering on my promise. So the more you can do. So just early on, like, like you said, these are on my webinars. And then I've got a, a full week before I close the cart. So I am creating that clarity as early as I can. And another thing we do, Jenna, we used to open our cart and wait like a good four or five days before we offered calls. We don't call them sales calls because we don't have a sales team, but calls with our alumni and some of the people on my team, we've started offering those calls earlier, giving them more clarity, a chance to be seen and heard, even for 20 minutes. You know how everyone. You said everyone feels like they're special.
- [33:34]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [33:34]
Amy Porterfield
Well, this comes across with our students as well. I've got a question that no one else is going to have. My situation's a little bit unique. Fine. I don't agree that it. That's true. But I'm going to meet you where you're at. Get on a call, you can ask your very specific question to a team member. So these, again, these touch points make a really big difference.
- [33:54]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah. One other thing along with this that I have seen, and it's been crazy because I've been texting a friend who's in a lunch and I, like, told her this in advance and her team sent me messages saying, thank you for this.
- [34:08]
Amy Porterfield
What? Tell me now.
- [34:10]
Jenna Kutcher
Dusting your payment plans.
- [34:12]
Amy Porterfield
Amen.
- [34:13]
Jenna Kutcher
So, yes, in our most recent launch, we saw something we've never seen before. And we used to be pretty 50, 50 between full payments and payment plans. And in our last launch, it was more like 70, 30 in terms of payment plans to full pay without changing the price of the offer. So, like, the price of the offer stayed the same. And what I think is really interesting, and I think that, again, we have to be able to pivot and evolve and adjust based on the environment, the world we're in, everything happening around us. And I think that a lot of people are feeling a certain amount of uncertainty, similar to like 2020 era of just like, I'm having a tough time committing or fully being able to commit or I don't have access to the finances necessary to go in at a full pay. And so it was just really interesting because we typically do three payment options. So we'll have full pay, we'll have like a short payment plan and then an extended payment plan. And when we recently launched, we pitched the full pay and the extended payment plan, and that lower price monthly option crushed it. A friend recently just launched a higher ticket item, and I told her before her first webinar, hey, this happened for me. I would just advise that you have your extended payment plan at least ready to go in case people in chat are asking if there's another lower priced option. And that payment plan ended up outperforming her other payment plan and her full pay together. So, like, I just think that again, buyer behavior is changing. People are making decisions more upfront and less at the end. And I think that when they can see an option that fits with their budget and they can kind of legitimize like a monthly payment option, I think that they're opting for that more than they did in the past. And so I would just highly recommend for anyone listening, I wouldn't necessarily wait until cart close date to launch your extended payment plan option because it might be more accessible for people either on the webinar itself or in those middle days to give out that option because we're seeing a lot of people selecting that.
- [36:26]
Amy Porterfield
Yeah, you make a great point that we used to keep our 12 payments to the very final day of cart open.
- [36:33]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [36:33]
Amy Porterfield
And we would not do that for our next launch. We would definitely do it sooner. I don't think I will do it on day one. So I've got a full pay and a six pay.
- [36:42]
Jenna Kutcher
Yep.
- [36:42]
Amy Porterfield
And those, I'll go out with those on day one in the webinar. But as we a few days go by, I will introduce the 12 pay. And if someone asks us, hey, do you have a different payment plan? We will give it to them on day one if they inquire. Yeah, but I think you're right. Holding back the longer payment plan to the very last day, I think right now that's not the best way to go.
- [37:03]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah, I agree. And I think we both know, like, it impacts different things in terms of like, cash flow and payment recovery. So there is a heavier lift involved in that. But I think as a business owner, you also have to go in with eyes wide open to understand the pros and cons of both things and just kind of really be able to analyze. And that's where again, data is so helpful of like, okay, what does this actually look like in the business? How does this impact our cash flow throughout the year and what does this mean? And then just weighing out the pros and cons. But it was just like a really dramatic shift, which just kind of spoke to like, okay, the climate is a little bit different and I think buyers might be approaching purchases slightly different. And so it's like, how do we adjust? And I think there are a lot of different ways you can adjust, which is exciting. It's like one thing that's so cool to me about launching is like, there are so many different levers you can pull at different times in the launch. And when you know what those levers are, are, it gives you the confidence to navigate anything that feels like it's shifting. Right. And so, yes, it's just like, I don't know. For the first time in many years, because my business has been so rinse and repeat since I became a mom six years ago, I feel like I'm, like, back on my toes strategically.
- [38:16]
Amy Porterfield
Of, like, kind of fun. Yeah.
- [38:18]
Jenna Kutcher
Like. Like, what's happening? Like, okay, what does this mean? Okay, how do we do this better? And I feel like it's just like, refining the art of all of it and also refining the experience for the people that get to experience it. So it's like we all kind of win out of it. I don't know. I get excited.
- [38:33]
Amy Porterfield
I do, too. And Jenna and I have had some really fun conversations. Like, okay, if this is shifting, what does this make possible? I have a business coach that every time, if I come to him with something negative, something didn't work, something I'm frustrated about, what does this make possible? And I think we've been really playing with that and enjoying it. And for the record, do not get caught in. Everyone's launches are not going well. Everyone is seeing lower revenue. It's not true. I have many students who are crushing it. And a lot of our peers are seeing. They had their biggest year last year.
- [39:04]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [39:04]
Amy Porterfield
So it's not true. And even if it were slightly true, what does that serve? How is that going to help you? Just to think everyone's not doing well. Instead, I'm thinking, okay, the people that are winning, I'm paying attention to them. What are they doing? And also, what am I excited to track? Why I feel Jenna more engaged in my business today than I did six months ago because I'm, like, on my toes, like you said. Like, okay, let's go. What are we seeing? So you get to decide how you navigate this.
- [39:32]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [39:32]
Amy Porterfield
Okay, let's go. For our final shift that we're seeing, because we have. Oh, actually, Jenna, real fast.
- [39:38]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [39:38]
Amy Porterfield
I don't even know the name of it. I think you will. You know when you were talking about payment plans.
- [39:42]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [39:43]
Amy Porterfield
Remember our friend Bonnie, Christine? She was doing something where they paid another company, but she got the full pay. What was that? Do you remember?
- [39:51]
Jenna Kutcher
Was it afterpay or Klarna?
- [39:53]
Amy Porterfield
Something like that?
- [39:54]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes.
- [39:54]
Amy Porterfield
I haven't used it yet, but I know people listening are like, well, what about that? Yeah, Yeah, I think explore it. See if it could work for you, I think it works probably best for maybe a few thousand dollar program, but I've never tried it.
- [40:06]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah, there's a few different, like, there's like afterpay and Klarna and different things where basically it almost like does financing for people. And a lot of times it's like with like the shop pay plugins and stuff. So basically you would just look at your payment processor and see if there's opportunities to add those in because some of those companies will almost kind of float the risk in a way and help somebody follow through without you having to like require a new team member to like follow up. So I love that.
- [40:32]
Amy Porterfield
So you're giving the company a cut of your revenue because they're taking some of it. But now you don't deal with any of the payment plans. So research, just something to research. Okay, so for the final shift, we're talking about AI, because we cannot have a conversation about shifting landscape without addressing AI. So essentially Jenna and I talk about this a lot. We see it as a tool, not a teacher. So personalized guidance is not going away. The need for it, the desire for it, it is more valuable than ever. So Jenna, talk about that a little bit.
- [41:07]
Jenna Kutcher
Okay, so when I think of AI, I think of information, and when I think of offers and courses, I think of transformation. I think there's like a huge chasm between those things. And it's really interesting. I remember seeing a post the other day and it was just like how we are so inundated with information that it's almost like causing us to be paralyzed. Like when you think of like even just scrolling on social media or listening to podcasts, like, like there are so many ways that like information is coming at us like through a fire hose. And so what is so interesting to me is one AI, the output is only as good as the input. So if you don't even know the questions to ask, you don't even know how to position a question to get the solution that you need, you're never going to get that. But secondary is you're going to get information, which is beautiful and valuable if you know what, what to do with it. And information alone is not going to change your life, it's not going to change your business, it's not going to save you. And so what's so interesting to me is like, I honestly feel like people are sick of information and they're very hungry for transformation and they want the fastest route from point A to point B. And I look at Courses as like the zero fluff, step by step formula. And I have never personally been able to like go into ChatGPT and get like the first result is the result that gives me all the things I need. Right. Like the back and forth. And so I think that AI is really incredible at summarizing concepts, but it can't give you personalized coaching or it can't really understand like the human side of you and your experience like another human can. So I think it's interesting. I think there's ways to leverage it it as a business owner, but I don't have any fear of it like replacing the actual art of transformation, which is what we give people.
- [43:06]
Amy Porterfield
Absolutely. And the more we're willing to share what we know, what worked for us, what didn't work for us, the more powerful we become in a world of AI. So for example, I can use AI to put together a digital course outline. Absolutely. But what AI doesn't know and what I get to do is show up on video and say, let me tell you about my first launch where I made $267 and then cried for a week. Let me tell you all the things that I did wrong and what I do differently 16 years later. AI will never give you that. And if you're doing something new, if you're teaching something new to your students, they want a connection with someone who's gone before them. Show me that I can actually do this. This a list of step by step generated from AI is very different than, hey, I was nervous like you too. I was freaked out to get on camera. Here are the things that I did behind the scenes to give me that confidence to show up. And let me show you some videos of me in the early days and what it looks like now and how I got there. Hey, I will never give people that type of personalization and connection. So again, I love that you just said Jenna, I'm never going to be worried about it it, but I will always embrace it in a way that will help me be better at what I do.
- [44:19]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah. It's even interesting because I recently recorded my entire program on Pinterest, the Pinterest lab, from start to finish and taking it's brand new. And so we were taking all of our old course content and then I was revising it, then I was bringing it into chat GPT and then I was like revising it again. And what was interesting is that ChatGPT was, was still messing things up where then we went through as a human again. And we're like, no, this actually doesn't make sense. And so it was also like a buyer beware type thing of, like, as I was recording, like, I'd hit something and I'm like. And then I'd stop. And I literally told you I, like, rerecorded the entire course again because I was catching things where I was like, oh, that was actually not correct. And so I think too, it's like, it's working off of a lot of information, but it's limited information and it's not the actual information experience. And so it was also just a reminder of, like, do not rely on this more than you rely on your brain and your own experience. And so for us, it was like, oh, we know, we know this. And so that was also just really eye opening to me of like, you can use it as a tool, but it's not a teacher. It is not a teacher.
- [45:32]
Amy Porterfield
Yes, for sure. If anything, AI is making digital courses even more valuable because people need trusted experts to filter that information and then to apply it to their businesses. So. And then guide them. So, yeah, and you're right. I love that you said that. AI is not always right, my friends. Like, sometimes it spits out things that I'm like, where in the world did you get that? Yeah, so, yeah, totally with you there.
- [45:58]
Jenna Kutcher
So let's wrap this up. This has been fun.
- [46:02]
Amy Porterfield
I'm so glad we talked about it.
- [46:04]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah. We're in, like, really interesting times, and I think that it's. It's. It's really exciting. I think things are evolving. I think it is up to us to evolve with them. And for you and I, I know that it's been just like this really interesting time of, like, wow, okay, where are we headed? And, like, how do we continue to lead through the direction that we're going? And ultimately, I know you and I both are, like, excited and on fire for what we do, for who we serve and how we do it. And we're also kind of going back to some of the basics that we have taught for years and years and years again to revisit things to make them stronger, to make them better and more clear. And so it's exciting because it's like, whoever is listening to this, whether you're at the starting line or you are like, 10 years into this game, there are so many things that we've talked about today that are just good reminders of, like, go back to this or check this out again or consider. Consider this as an opportunity. So I don't know. I'm kind of excited to see how 2025 unfolds. And I think we should sit down again later on in the year and rediscuss like what we're finding.
- [47:14]
Amy Porterfield
Absolutely. Let's make a commitment to do that. Let's continue this conversation. And again, what does this make possible? That's the question I want you to continue to ask again and again. So thank you my friends for being here. And Jenna, it's always fun to have these chats with you.
- [47:31]
Jenna Kutcher
Okay, we covered a lot of ground today. So what's the biggest takeaway here? Well, online business. It is not broken at all. It is just evolving. And the best part is that you don't have to guess your way through it. You can take what's working, adapt where needed, and keep building your confidence. And if today's conversation got you thinking about diversifying your marketing strategy, do not sleep on Pinterest. I am teaching my exact, exact Pinterest strategy for free in Create Once Traffic for months my 1 hour Pinterest strategy to 120x your contents life. This is my free masterclass. I do these live once a year. You can sign up now@teachmetopin.com that's teachmetopin.com and I will see you there. And of course, if you're not already listening to the Amy Porterfield show, go hit subscribe. Because if you love this show, I know you'll love it too. Until next time, Gold Diggers, keep on digging your biggest goals. And if you know someone who would benefit from today's conversation, take a quick second to share it. Be that good best friend that swoops in with solutions and saves the day. I'll see you on the next one. Thanks for pulling up a seat for another episode of the Gold Digger Podcast. I hope today's episode fueled you with inspiration, gave you information that you can turn into action, and realigned you with with your true north in life and business. If you've enjoyed today's episode, head on over to gold diggerpodcast.com for today's show notes, discount codes for our sponsors, freebies to fuel your results, and so much more. And if you haven't yet, make sure you're subscribed so that you never miss a future show. We'll see you next time. Gold Diggers.