891: The 6 Types of Working Genius (And Why You’re Burnt Out Without Yours)

Summary

Episode Summary: The 6 Types of Working Genius (And Why You’re Burnt Out Without Yours)

Introduction

In Episode 891 of The Goal Digger Podcast, host Jenna Kutcher delves into the concept of the Working Genius model alongside renowned author and speaker Patrick Lencioni. This episode explores how understanding one’s inherent working strengths can lead to greater fulfillment, enhanced productivity, and reduced burnout in both professional and personal spheres.

Understanding the Working Genius Model

Patrick Lencioni introduces the Working Genius framework, a model designed to help individuals and teams identify their natural talents and areas of frustration in the workplace. The model comprises six types of working genius, each representing different aspects of the work process:

1. Wonder – The ability to ponder and ask big questions.
2. Invention – The knack for creating new ideas and solutions.
3. Discernment – The skill of evaluating ideas based on intuition and judgment.
4. Galvanizing – The talent for rallying and motivating others.
5. Enablement – The capacity to support and assist others in executing tasks.
6. Tenacity – The drive to complete projects and ensure they are done well.

Notable Quotes:

• Pat Lencioni [00:02]: "Just keep being good at what you're good at. And when you do that, you'll actually get better at the things you're not naturally good at because you don't feel the pressure to be that way."
• Jenna Kutcher [00:20]: “I’m here to help you redefine your vision of success and find more joy, ease, and peace in pursuing your goals.”

Origins of the Model

Pat shares his personal journey of frustration in his early career, where despite loving his job, he felt drained and unfulfilled. This led him to develop the Working Genius model after realizing he was consistently engaged in tasks that did not align with his natural strengths (00:03:17).

Notable Quote:

• Pat Lencioni [03:17]: “Most of us have experienced burnout, lower performance, shame, and guilt because we’re doing work outside of our genius.”

Breaking Down the Six Types of Genius

1. Wonder [05:56]

   • Described as: The ability to ponder possibilities and ask significant questions.
   • Pat Lencioni [07:13]: “The genius of wonder is about sitting and pondering things, marveling at why things are the way they are, and asking if there’s a better way.”

2. Invention [09:17]

   • Described as: Creating new ideas and solving problems uniquely.
   • Pat Lencioni [09:18]: “The genius of invention is about loving to solve problems in unique ways and coming up with new ideas.”

3. Discernment [10:00]

   • Described as: Evaluating ideas using intuition and pattern recognition.
   • Pat Lencioni [10:04]: “People with discernment have a gut feel about whether something will work or not.”

4. Galvanizing [11:39]

   • Described as: Motivating and rallying others towards action.
   • Pat Lencioni [11:40]: “Galvanizing is about inspiring people to take action and keep them moving forward.”

5. Enablement [14:52]

   • Described as: Supporting and assisting others to execute tasks.
   • Pat Lencioni [15:42]: “Enablement involves coming alongside others to help them achieve their goals.”

6. Tenacity [16:14]

   • Described as: Driving projects to completion and ensuring high-quality results.
   • Pat Lencioni [16:42]: “Tenacity is about loving to finish things and ensuring they’re done well.”

Personal Insights and Assessments

Jenna shares her own Working Genius assessment results, identifying her strengths in Discernment and Invention, and her frustrations in Wonder and Enablement (14:52). She highlights how recognizing these areas has allowed her to delegate tasks that drain her, thereby enhancing her productivity and reducing burnout.

Notable Quote:

• Jenna Kutcher [14:52]: “My lowest two are wonder and enablement. Recognizing this has freed me to focus on what I excel at and enjoy.”

Applying the Model to Teams and Businesses

Pat emphasizes the importance of understanding each team member’s genius types to optimize team performance and prevent burnout. He shares examples of how organizations have successfully realigned roles based on the Working Genius model, leading to improved morale and efficiency.

Notable Quote:

• Pat Lencioni [26:16]: “When teams understand their collective geniuses and frustrations, they can reorganize roles to better align with individual strengths, leading to heightened productivity.”

Impact on Personal Relationships and Family Life

The conversation extends to personal life, illustrating how the Working Genius model can enhance relationships and family dynamics. Jenna discusses how understanding her and her husband’s genius types has improved their collaboration and reduced household stress.

Notable Quote:

• Jenna Kutcher [40:15]: “It allows us to laugh at our differences and understand why we approach things the way we do, fostering greater harmony at home.”

Implementing the Working Genius Model

Pat advises listeners to take the Working Genius assessment and share their results with close contacts to foster understanding and collaboration. He suggests practical steps for integrating the model into daily workflows and team structures.

Notable Quote:

• Pat Lencioni [35:19]: “Share your working genius with those closest to you and use it as a foundation to redefine how you approach work and collaboration.”

Maximizing Strengths and Minimizing Frustrations

The discussion underscores the importance of focusing on one’s geniuses rather than trying to improve areas of frustration. Pat shares insights on how doubling down on strengths can inadvertently improve weaker areas without the negative consequences of overemphasis.

Notable Quote:

• Pat Lencioni [43:28]: “When you keep being good at what you're naturally good at, you might actually get better at other areas without the pressure.”

Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Jenna and Pat conclude by encouraging listeners to embrace their unique genius types, fostering environments—both professional and personal—that celebrate individual strengths and support areas of challenge.

Notable Quote:

• Jenna Kutcher [53:37]: “This is a place where it does unlock what your true motivators are and help you find the leaks in the bucket that you can get support in.”

Conclusion

Episode 891 of The Goal Digger Podcast offers a compelling exploration of the Working Genius model, providing valuable insights into how understanding and leveraging one's natural talents can lead to enhanced fulfillment and reduced burnout. Through personal anecdotes and practical advice, Jenna Kutcher and Patrick Lencioni illustrate the profound impact this model can have on both professional teams and personal relationships.

Additional Resources

• Working Genius Assessment: Visit workinggenius.com to take the assessment and explore more about the model.
• Table Group: Learn more about Patrick Lencioni’s consulting firm at tablegroup.com.
• Working Genius Podcast: Dive deeper into the model by tuning into the Working Genius podcast available on all major platforms.

Transcript

[Pat Lencioni]

Just keep being good at what you're good at. And when you do that, you'll actually get better at the things you're not naturally good at because you don't feel the pressure to be that way. So when we double down on our frustrations, we actually get worse at it and we lose the confidence in the things we're meant to be confident in.

[Jenna Kutcher]

I'm Jenna Kutcher, your host of the Goal Digger podcast. I escaped the corporate world at the age of 23 with nothing more than a $300 camera from Craigslist and a dream. Now I'm read running a seven figure online business that feels even better than it looks. All from my house in small town Minnesota with my family here. We value time as our currency. We mix the woo and the work and we are in the pursuit of building businesses that give us the freedom to live lives that we love. I've always loved turning big goals into reality and I'm here to help you do the same. This isn't just a peek behind the curtain. Come along with me and my guests as we tear the whole curtain down. Every week we tackle practical no fluff marketing strategies strategies and host honest discussions on what works and what doesn't. Join me and my expert guests for actionable insights to help you grow your dream business with confidence. Pull up a seat and get ready to be challenged, inspired and empowered. This is the Gold Digger podcast. Today we're diving into a topic that I think so many of us struggle with. How do we find joy and energy in our work, especially when burnout feels all too real? My guest today has spent his career helping people unlock the key to loving what they do and he's created a simple yet crazy powerful framework to make that possible. Pat Lencioni is a best selling author and renowned speaker and his work has helped businesses of all sizes, from startups to global corporations, transform the way they think about productivity, teamwork and leadership. His latest book introduces a model that's designed to help individuals and teams tap into their natural talents and create more fulfilling, effective work environments. This conversation though, is so much more than productivity. It's about understanding yourself and recognizing what brings you joy and then knowing how to use that knowledge to not only thrive in your career, but to help others do the same. Patrick is the mastermind behind the working Genius model and today we're pulling back the curtain on this game changing concept and I am also sharing what my assessment said about me which was 100% spot on. So whether you're leading a team or running your own business or just looking to find more purpose in your day to day life. This episode is for you. Be sure to visit working genius.com and use the code Gold Digger at checkout and get 20% off your 25 Working Genius Assessment. It is 1000% worth every single penny that's working genius. Com and use the code Gold Digger. All right, let's get into it. This episode feels like therapy. It feels empowering, it feels exciting. You are going to love it. Or welcome, Patrick, to the Gold Digger podcast. All right, we are diving straight in and I need to start with this heavy hitting question is how are people not leveraging their genius when it comes to work? And what are the consequences of that?

[Pat Lencioni]

So many people are not. And it's usually because they don't even know what their geniuses are at work. And they picked their career based on they thought, I want to work in this field or in this kind of a job. But they really didn't define it in terms of the actions they looked at more of the. The appearance of it all and the consequences of doing work outside of your genius. I know because I've done it. Most of us have. Is burnout. It's lower performance than you, than it ought to be. And then shame and guilt and it stays with you forever. I mean, it shouldn't. It doesn't have to. My first job out of college, I had exactly the wrong job. Even though everybody said it was the best job in the world, it wasn't for me. Two years later, I left. And it took me 30 years until we discovered this to realize why I failed. And it wasn't because I was less than it was because it was exactly the wrong job for me.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Oh, my gosh. I think so many people listening can already relate to this. I have found so many different turning points in my own career where I should have felt on top of the world and all I felt was like, burnt out or out of alignment. And I think so much of that is really understanding yourself, how you define success, how you like to show up. And so I want to talk about your working genius model because I took this months ago. And one thing that I think is so fun, Pat, is that people are so curious to know more about themselves. I think that in a world filled with so much information, a lot of times we're like, tell me about me. And we do all these things like personality tests or like, what. Which character of Schitt's Creek are you most like? And we're. We're really into those things. But one area that I think we don't dive into enough has to do with our working style. So what is the working genius model, and how did you figure it out?

[Pat Lencioni]

Well, I love the way you described that because, you know, I'm a junkie for all those things, Myers, Briggs, and disc and all these different tools, but nothing really did a good job of explaining the verb part, which is, what am I good at? And we almost. We said we really should call it the six types of doing genius, because it's what you do, and that's your job, but it's also how you work and what you like, where you get your joy and energy at home and in other things you do. But it really plays out, especially at work. So the six types of work in genius came about because, Jenna, I was actually frustrated for many years in my own job. I loved what I did. I loved the company. I loved the people I worked with. But I'd come into work excited, and many days, by noon, I would be frustrated. And finally somebody said, why are you like that? Why do you go from excitement to frustration and then to excitement again? And I said, I don't know, but I want to figure it out.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

And so I started thinking about work. And by the grace of God, I was like, oh, wait a second. There's six different kinds of work. And I was doing one almost every day that wasn't meant to be done by me. And yet somehow I thought that was my job. I was the president of the company. I was supposed to do this. And I got really burnt out and grumpy, and so I thought I wasn't trying to invent a new model. I was just like, okay, now I know why. And then we were like, wait a second. What about you? And what about you? And people started hearing about it. I had a whiteboard in my house, and we were doing it at my home, and a CEO saw it because he heard about it, and he was sitting there talking to his team, and somebody said, which of these geniuses are yours? And he started to cry. He was like, oh, my gosh. I. I hate my job because I'm doing the wrong thing. And we were like, there's something going on here. And as it turns out, it's universal. It's real. And everyone we shared it with was like, I want to know myself better, because I don't want to be miserable at work. I don't want to be miserable at home. And I want to know why when somebody asks me to do something, I either love it or I don't love it. And it really relieves us of guilt and shame and allows us to live into the genius that God meant us to live into.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Okay, break these six things down now. Everyone is like captivated and they're like, which one am I? What is this? And one thing that I think is so interesting, so I have adhd and one thing that helps my brain so much is being able to compartmentalize or see things in like a clear definition. And that was one of the reasons why I love this assessment so much, was the different categories that allowed me to see, okay, what is my working genius? What is my competency? So walk through what are the six things? And kind of like, how do they play out in somebody's life so that they can close their eyes as you're describing it and imagine like where this might be coming into play within their life, within their work, whatever that looks like.

[Pat Lencioni]

Right. Okay, so I'll try to go quick here.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

And I'm going to do this in the, in the sequence that work happens. Although life is messy and it goes back and forth, but generally speaking, the sequence of work goes like this, the first genius. And I'm going to do it in altitude. Okay, the first one starts up at 50,000ft, head in the clouds. The last one goes down to 5ft, landing the plane, if you will. And the first one is the genius of wonder. And that happens way up there. And this is the genius of being able to sit and ponder things and ask questions and to marvel at things and wonder why things are the way they are. Every new idea comes about because somebody asks the big question. Even without an answer, they're like, why is it like this? Should it still be like this? Is there a better way to do this? And they ponder things, they wonder. And most people that have this genius, and it's a God given genius and it's critical, most people were never rewarded for it because in school they're like, why is your head in the clouds? Why are you asking questions? Why don't you just get on and do it? Very few people get to celebrate this and be rewarded for it. And so, so many people with the genius of wonder, when they figure out they have it, they're like, oh, so this is a good thing? Yes, it's a gift. And so that's the first one. The second one, a little lower goes the genius of invention. Because the person with wonder says, is there a better way? And the person with the genius of invention, and this is one of Mine goes, I don't know, but let me figure it out.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

And we get up in the morning. We love to solve problems in unique ways and come up with new ideas. Okay, so the genius of invention. A lot of people think these are the real geniuses. They're not. They're all geniuses. But this is one that gets a disproportionate amount of attention in society. But it's just one of the gifts. Okay. The next one we get a little closer to the ground is the genius of discernment. These are people that evaluate those ideas and have a gut feel, an instinct and intuition about whether it's going to work or not. They evaluate things. They curate things. Well, they have pattern recognition. They're integrative thinkers. And their gut feel is usually right. A woman in my office, her name is Tracy, has great intuition.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

Even when she was a little girl, people would go to her and say, ask Tracy. She'll know.

[Jenna Kutcher]

This is me. That's me, too.

[Pat Lencioni]

Right. And so. And it's not even things you're an expert on. It's just you have good gut. My wife will say, before I make a decision, ask Tracy. And that could be, are we going to refinance our house? Where are we going on vacation? Or should I wear this today to work? She. Go ask Tracy. She'll know. Yeah. Tracy has great instincts. And it's not magic. It's a gift. It's a gift. Discernment. So they're really good at evaluating things. Once you've decided and you run it by the discerner, then we get. We're getting closer to the ground now. The genius of galvanizing. There are people in the world who wake up every day and say, please ask me to help rally the troops. I want to push people. I want to sell to people. I want to inspire people. I want to get to keep them moving, and I want to remind them, and I'll do it every day. They're naturally galvanizing, and some people love doing that. Some people hate doing that. Or one man or woman's trash is another's treasure. And we forget that then we're getting really close to the ground. Now somebody galvanizes everybody. Let's do it. There are people that have the genius, the next one, of enablement. Enablement is a good word for most things, not for alcoholism and things like that. But enablement are the kind of people who have the gift, the genius of coming alongside and saying, I want to help you. You need help. I love to do it. And you think about certain professions and this doesn't break down. Any profession can have any genius. But when you think about that nurse, when the buzzer goes off and they have to go help somebody and they're like, oh, I get to go help Mr. So? And so many of us are like, oh, that sounds miserable. And they're like, no, I love it.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes. Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

I wake up in the morning and I love to respond to other people's needs on their terms. The last genius where we land the plane is tenacity. These are people that love to finish things. They love to push things across. They don't actually rest until they know it can be done, done well and they can see the the fruits of it. I have none of that. I've written 14 books. I think I would have written zero if people around me didn't have tenacity. Because I move on to the next thing. I come up with an idea and to go, okay, what's the next one? And they're like, you have a lot of work to finish this. Somebody around me has to make me do that. So those are the six types of working genius. It starts up at wonder and goes all the way to tenacity and finishing things.

[Jenna Kutcher]

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[Pat Lencioni]

I can't wait to hear this.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes. Mine are discernment and invention. Oh, yes. And I. I bet there are a lot of people listening that are similar in this. And what's so interesting, Pat, is as you were describing that, and I could literally picture the people on my team or in my life that are those supportive roles all around it. Like, I couldn't. I couldn't do the inventions with discernment if I didn't have those people. And I love that you brought that up because there are also people who love to be behind the scenes, who love to help. They don't want to be the faces or the voices of the brands. And so I think what's exciting about this model is when you start to see not only what are your gifts, but how do you invite in other people with those other gifts to support the big vision, which is amazing.

[Pat Lencioni]

It's a beautiful thing that we need each other, and this is why teams are so wonderful. God made us so that none of us have everything.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yep.

[Pat Lencioni]

And so, and. And what's amazing is we tend to assume that everybody else wants a job just like ours. And so you hire somebody and you manage them and you go, oh, I'm gonna give you complete freedom and creativity. You can do it the way you want. And somebody will go, that sounds miserable. And you're like, what do you mean? They're like, I want you to help me figure out what you want from me, and I want to know what success looks like. I'd like some definition that's my idea of a great job. And I'm like, that's hell to me.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

And what a great thing that is.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes, yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

You know one thing. So you're an ID or di. That's the. That's the discriminating ideator. So the thing about you is you come up with a lot of new ideas, but while you're coming up with them, you're vetting them, and by the time you say, this is what I think we should do, it's actually, you've thought through it, you've evaluated. It's not just like a wild, crazy idea. It's actually pretty good. Now, asking you to then take it through to completion is like pulling fingernails.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Right.

[Pat Lencioni]

It's like, oh, please don't. And there's other people that go, please let me take your idea and. And put together a plan and follow through and figure out the details and finish it.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

And you're like, oh, thank you for your genius. And they're all equally important and equally needed. We tend to denigrate our own sometimes and think, well, this is an easy one. What you do is hard. It's like, no, it's hard for you, but it's EAS easier for them. And that's beautiful.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes. I love this too, because I love the partnership of my two, because I think the discernment is such a powerful one for me personally, in that, like you said, I have a million ideas. Like, every. Just yesterday, I was like, I'm going to launch a granola business because I made one batch of granola, and I was like, just imagine. And then, like, immediately I start thinking through with my discernment, all the things thing. I'm like, what are you doing? So it's like that balance of, like, the ideas are so, so many. The discernment kind of keeps you in alignment and attuned to, like, the reality and, like, what is the true definition of success? And I think that it's a powerhouse combo. So I need to know why would it be helpful and important for somebody listening if they're a solopreneur or someone, if they had maybe a small team or a team that they were managing, how can we utilize this knowledge of, like, where we're at when it comes to these things to help elevate us or to just simply bring more, like, pleasure and enjoyment to the work that we're doing every day?

[Pat Lencioni]

So I think solopreneurs and small groups are especially important. In fact, last night I did some pro bono consulting to a small, like, Ministry team, very small, three people. And we looked at their working genius and there were huge gaps. And if you're going out on your own, you're like, okay, I'm great at these things and I'm terrible at these things. That's how you know maybe who your first hire should be or who you should outsource. When you hire a vendor, don't get somebody who's good at the same thing as you are because you're both going to be frustrated. It's like you need somebody to fill the gaps and compliment you. And if you don't know your geniuses and your frustrations, you don't know how to do that. And I want to explain this about those six things, Jenna. There's two that are your genius. That's where you get joy and energy, and so you're naturally good at them.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yep.

[Pat Lencioni]

Two of them are what we call your competencies. There's. They're in the middle. You don't get really fed by them, but you can be okay at them. It's not terrible. Your genius is like one of these yeti mugs where you put coffee in it, you screw the lid on and it stays hot all day. It holds the energy, right?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

Your competency in the middle is like this cup and I put a lid on it and it'll keep the coffee warm for a while.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yep.

[Pat Lencioni]

Your frustration, your two lowest ones. And I want to hear what yours are. Yeah. It's like pouring coffee in a cup that has a hole in the bottom. It just leaks out right away, raining. If you do too much of your frustration.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

It's going to burn you out so fast. What are your lowest 2?

[Jenna Kutcher]

So my lowest 2 are wonder and enablement. So I think it's an interesting duo because, you know, I'm really experiencing this, that as a parent because I have a six year old and a three year old and I feel like my oldest is filled with wonder and I love it. But she asked all the big questions. I'm a girl. I got it like chatgpt that. Like I don't even know she. And I love that and I love that. But the other one, with enablement, is so hilarious to me because my, like VP on my team, Marissa, is so good at this. And for a while her and I butt heads because I couldn't figure out, like, how to release the control and let her do that. And it was just a really interesting relationship at first. Now I can't imagine not having somebody right next to me who is so good at that. Because that is something that has released so much pressure from my life and allowed me to stay more in discernment and invention. And it was just an area where I was, like, forcing it for so many years because I had to. That when I released that, it was like freedom. It was like freedom.

[Pat Lencioni]

And it's like a. It's such a win, win because you get to do what you love. She gets to do what she loves. She's naturally good at it. You're naturally good at yours. The productivity on teams goes through the roof. I bet when people just realize this and go, you mean you don't like doing that? And people are like, no, I don't. Well, I'll do that. That would be a gift. How about if you do this instead so you don't have to switch your job titles. You can just kind of readjust the roles a little bit and everything improves. It's such an amazing thing. I love that you use your kids, too, because, man, if you have a child that's an ET for instance, the last two, they do what's asked of them and they do it well. And they finish school is very easy for them early on. They never forget to put their name on the top of the page. They kind of know what their homework is. They have a natural sense of like, okay, I want to finish this. Well, I have a son who's a WI the first two. He's way up there, and it's like, school was never and is never going to be easy for him. I was talking to him last night. He's in college right now. And he was saying things like, yeah, I never checked on this. I just finished a class that I didn't actually have to take. And it's my hardest class. And I. And we're like, did you check on that before? And he's like, no. And we're like, oh, God bless you, you're such a dear. But if you don't know that, you'll actually turn to your kids, the one with wonder, and say, stop asking questions. And the one with ET Will go, you need to be more inquisitive. And suddenly you're saying, you're not enough, you're not enough.

[Jenna Kutcher]

That's big.

[Pat Lencioni]

You celebrate people who they are.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah. I feel like this is so interesting to me because when you start to uncover these competencies, one, I think what you brought up is, like, you can share, like, the mental load a lot easier. Like, and I think that for so many people, the struggle in starting or running or maintaining or growing or scaling a business is really the mental load. And it's almost like you're able to, like, release the white knuckle grip and hand things over safely. And also, as a boss, if you have a team of one or a team of ten or a team of a hundred, you suddenly are a better leader. Not because you're constantly micromanaging, but you're allowing people to be in their genius, which I think feels better for everybody.

[Pat Lencioni]

Oh, it's a gift to both parties. And. And what a tragedy. Truly a tragedy when we're both acting outside of our genius and not freeing the other person up to be who they are. Hey, I have a great thing for you, Jenna. Who's the woman on your team who's an e. Who has enablement?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Marissa.

[Pat Lencioni]

Marissa. Okay, so one of the things about working genius that we love is it. It makes its way into your vocabulary.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

You know, and. And. Which is really good because, like, one day you're going to be an ID and you're gonna go. You know what would be really cool? A granola company. I mean, that's way out there, but an ego's. Okay, I'm gonna. I'll get started. And I say to people, oh, I'm not g you. I'm not galvanizing you. I'm just throwing it against the wall. Because the enabler enables. They're gonna go, okay, so let's get started. And you're gonna go, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want you to do anything. And you realize their nature is to act on your idea, but if you haven't fully discerned it and you're not ready to get them going using the vocabulary, like, we're having a meeting. We're just gonna eye things today.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

We're not going to G E N T things. Sometimes I go to a meeting, and it's like, it's a G E T meeting, so I have to sit on my hands because my nature is like, yeah, we're launching it tomorrow. I have a new idea.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Oh, I love this. What would it look like in terms of, like, a culture of having more so, like, accountability and commitment? So let's say that somebody is doing this assessment and they get their response. How could they help create a culture that really starts to, like, adapt to that and understands it and commits to helping people kind of stay in their. Their best roles? Like, what would that look like?

[Pat Lencioni]

You know, it's very. It's very natural and easy. I'm glad it doesn't take A lot of intentional design. Yeah. And by the way, the assessment takes 12 minutes to fill out. And the. Because of the way we ask the questions, the accuracy is remarkably high. Because people tend to know what they get joy and energy from and what drains them, there's not really much incentive to lie. So here's the interesting thing is if a group of people sit around a table, they take it, they get their results back. The report has quite a bit of stuff in it, Even the label that goes with their type, which we really worked hard on. You go around the table and people read it out loud, and they just start laughing because they go, that's totally you. I did this yesterday with the executive team at a really wonderful big company. Yeah. So I had 15 executives in the room, and we went around the table, and they just started cracking up. And they're like, oh, my gosh. You come to me with an idea, and you're selling it to me, and I'm already trying to tell you why it wouldn't be good for our insurance program. And I don't know that you want to invent something. And I'm trying to protect us. Now that we know that, we can have different conversations, and the insights are immediate. It's crazy. I had an executive team once where they were a technology company. I had an hour with them to do this. We went through their working genius, and they realized nobody on the team, they were technology. Nobody had invention as one of their geniuses. Not the cto, not the chief engineering officer, anybody, except the lawyer. That's how it is. What are we going to do?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

And you know what they did? They put the lawyer in charge of new technology acquisition. And the lawyer's like, I can't do that. I went to law school. They go, it doesn't matter. You love this. He goes, oh, I totally love it.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

Two years later, he was out of the legal department completely and was doing technology.

[Jenna Kutcher]

That is so fascinating. One thing that I think is so really interesting is, like, once you understand your unique pairing, and this is where I think it is kind of almost, like, alarmingly good, is okay. So for me, I crave freedom and trust, and this could not be. Be more real. Like, it is me to the core, and what I'm crushed by is constraint. And, like, prove it. Like, I don't like having to try to prove something that is so, like, internal. Like you said, like that gut compass. I have been talking about this thing, Pat, for, like, over a decade where I call it my gut game. It's like, oh, what is my gut telling me about this? And, like, how do I check in with that? And how do I get quiet enough to listen? And so what is so funny is one area that my, like, VP really brought in is when she came to the company six years ago, it was when I first became a mom, and the constraint thing was so real for me, where, like, I felt so limited if I even had a single meeting on the calendar. Like, she was like, how often does a team meet? And I was like, never. I don't like meetings. And, like, she's like, how do you run this team? And I'm like, I don't know. We just do. And so I have also been such a beneficiary of her adding in constraint in ways that doesn't feel limited or forced for me. And so it's interesting to see, too, how you can do things in a way that might feel at first, like, ooh, like, it gives you that kind of, like, pull, but you can do it in a way that then really, truly, her constraints have unlocked what I crave the most, which is freedom. So by her adding in the right constraints, I now am getting the actual freedom I wanted, just not in a way that I saw it was possible before.

[Pat Lencioni]

And you know what's great? There's this thing called the fundamental attribution error, which means when somebody does something that you find annoying, you'll attribute it to their character. We don't. We all do this. But then when we do something that others find annoying, we attribute it to our environment because we give ourselves the benefit of the doubt. It's one of the things that breaks down human relationships. And like St. Francis of Assisi, he said, seek to understand more than to be understood. Well, when we understand each other's types, it's really easy to go, well, Jenna, gosh, she's so flaky. It's like, no, no, she's an id. She wants freedom. My favorite day on the calendar is when there's nothing same and I get to follow my nose and I'm more productive. Well, instead of going, that's flaky. It's like, oh, no. That's how she's wired. God made her that way. Somebody else is like, I'd like structure. Well, we can give each other grace and go, oh, you're not broken. That's natural. Now let's reorganize what we do so that your desire for structure can actually free me up to do what I do.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Isn't that cool? I love that.

[Pat Lencioni]

And you're a mom, you do a lot of enabling.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

But it's great that you don't feel guilty and you can go. This is not natural to me. It's a free will gift to my kids. But I really like when they come to me for advice. Now, my kids, what they told me later, before, because we didn't do this, they said, dad, every time we came to you for something, you gave us advice. I'm like, but that's my discernment. Sometimes we just wanted you to do it.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes, yes. I mean, it is. I think what's just so interesting is learning about this, especially when it comes to work, especially if you are someone who feels like you are doing all the things you couldn't possibly do more. But you're either not getting the results or you're not getting the fulfillment that you anticipated or craved. But because I think that a lot of times as entrepreneurs, especially when you're starting out, it's like you're wearing every hat, you're playing every role, and there's a really good chance that the majority of those roles are not the role that you want to be in or the place that you serve best in. And so I just feel like this is a place where it does unlock what your true motivators are and help you find the leaks in the bucket that you can get support in, get help in, get community in, just to kind of help balance out that experience. Because everyone that's an entrepreneur knows it is hard and it tests you and it makes you really learn about yourself. And I feel like when you can look at this in a way of like, okay, well, what is my working style and where do I shine? It does allow you to really kind of highlight those places and let go of some of the things that you maybe were forcing, you know, I remember.

[Pat Lencioni]

When I started my business, my dad, God rest his soul, said, I said, dad, I'm gonna go out on my own. And he was like, no, no, no, you have benefits. You know, I said, no, no, I know I need to start my own company. And then I said, I'm bringing four people with me. And he goes, no, no, no, no, no, because you don't have money yet. Wait till you make enough money to pay for them. I said, dad, I'll never make a dollar if I don't bring them, because I'm not good at half the stuff we need to do. And I was with this team last night, and they were, like, hurting financially. And then I looked at their type, and they had nobody with G, E or T. The last three. Which means getting things done.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

And I said, oh no, you can't afford not to hire somebody because none of you like doing this. It's burning you out. You're not actually conceiving of the right concepts because you're spending all of your time doing a grind. And they were like, oh my gosh. The very thing we thought we were doing, like doing what we hated. We thought that was good for the business. It was gonna crush us.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

It's so important to know that. Give yourself permission to ask others to do things that you're not good at. That.

[Jenna Kutcher]

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[Pat Lencioni]

Oh, yeah.

[Jenna Kutcher]

And just understanding that we're all so individual, we all have such different experiences, we all have such different gifts. And I think that that is like a raising in consciousness of, like, I don't know what's going to work for you, but here's what works for me. And I feel like this is literally that packaged up in an interesting way. One thing that I'm curious about is what advice would you give to somebody who wants to bring this in to help themselves or their team get better results? Like, once you know what your type is or what your genius is, how do you maximize that? Like, what would be the next step to really not just take the result, but harness the power of it?

[Pat Lencioni]

I'd say open up what you're doing. Like, don't make anything sacred in terms of how you're going about doing your work. Let's wipe the slate clean and rethink how we're going about getting our work done. Because you have people in your or. Last night, I was working with these three people. The number one thing that happened was when we figured out that this one woman had wonder and discernment, that she's called the contemplative counselor. And she's really insightful. They reorganized what they asked her to do, and she was like, I would love to do more of this. They said, we would love for you to do more of this. You're going to tap into potential that you never had before. So what I want people to do is don't hold on to anything about how you're doing it. Look at your work from a fresh perspective now. Again, it's not going to be that you're going to change everything, but the tweaks you make will make such a difference. I want to tell a story about a guy right after we came out with working genius, like four years ago, he went to a performance review and he sat down with his boss and his boss's boss and he had not had a good year and he wasn't doing well in his job and he knew that and he said, this is going to be a bloodbath, right? He took working genius the night before and he was like, oh, wow. He goes to the performance review and he hands his sheet to his manager and his manager's manager and says, I want you to look at this. And they were like, well, no wonder you're doing so bad. This is a horrible job for you. He's like, yeah. And they were like, we have another job. You'd be great at this other job. He said, I got promoted because I took an assessment in 12 minutes, gave it to my manager and they put me in the right job. Well, most companies want to put people in the right job. There's very few bosses out there that are going to be like, I want you to do this even though you hate it, but if they don't know what you love and what you hate, they can't utilize you better. So sit around a table and have everybody put their thing. We have a team map. Like eight people do this. You can do a team map and it'll show you like the preponderance of geniuses and the preponderance of frustrations. And people look at the map and they're like, oh, no wonder we're struggling. We have nobody on the team with discernment or with tenacity or with invention. And it is such again, it's so insightful quickly that people immediately go, I know what we need to do. And it might be changing jobs, might be the next hire you make. It might be just outsourcing or borrowing somebody from another department in the company who's good at something, who can come in once a quarter and spend three hours with you to free you up from somebody. So there's just so many low hanging fruit opportunities for teams that do this and talk about it.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Do you know what your wife is? I mean, I'm sure you do. Let's talk about this in life. Like let's, let's talk about how this impacts life. Because I am like Fully on board when it comes to team. And I can just totally see the power of, like, also just knowing who to hire next or what, what you need to shimmy around. But let's also talk about, like, life, because I think this is also fascinating.

[Pat Lencioni]

My wife Laura, and I'll show her this podcast. It'll be fun. So it explains so much. I think everybody needs to know what their spouse is.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

And their friends and everything. So my wife is a wi. She's the first to wonder and invention. She's the creative dreamer. She's always been that way. Always been that way. I fell in love with her because she's that way. You know, it's wonderful. I'm an ID like you, so I'm the next two. So between the two of us, our geniuses are only w I n d the first three. We have none of the last three. Hardly. Okay, okay.

[Jenna Kutcher]

So like crossing the finish line, mapping out the steps to get it done. Outsourcing.

[Pat Lencioni]

So my wife raised. We have four boys and the youngest is now in college. But for years it was just chaos. And my wife was just so struggling. And I'd always say to her, why don't you outsource some of the administrative things? And she goes, well, look at my friends. They're good at. They don't have any problem. Look at. They're fine. And she felt like, I'm never enough. And these are childhood wounds. And she's like, I'm just never enough. And when we did this, the book, she was reading the manuscript on an airplane with me and she finished it and she turned to me, I said, what do you think? She goes, it was great. And I'm so pissed off. And I said, really? Why? And she goes, because I've been doing get work for the last 25. And I said. And she. And I said, I know I wanted you to outsource. She goes, I couldn't even outsource it. I felt too guilty. Had we known this right out of the gate. We just said, okay, we are never going to live in to be the best people that God made us to be unless we understand this. So it's so enlightening. Now we can laugh at things and go, oh my gosh, you're a wi or I'm an id. We still have to do them. But we don't get so down on ourselves for the stuff we're bad at. And it just changes a mistake in our family to a cause for, like, laughter rather than condemnation, self condemnation especially, or getting frustrated. Like, I Thought you were gonna pay that bill. I thought you were gonna pay that bill. It's like neither of us want to, right?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Oh, I mean, I love this. And I think too, it's so interesting because I'm sure, here's my guess, my guess is that like half of the couples would like span the whole thing. Right. Like you are opposite or you're like minded. Like, I would guess that you're either similar to your partner or you span the whole realm. And I think too, what's so interesting, and I've been thinking about this so much, just as a mom of young kids and a business owner and a wife is like figuring out like, okay, where do I serve the family best right now in this season? How can I let go of the things that are either mentally burdening me or holding me back or stressing me out and really looking at like, task distribution and figuring out like, who is good at what? And it's something that my husband and I have been doing a lot lately is just like renegotiation of like who's deciding what's for dinner and how is this getting created. And so it's so interesting because I think it's easy to imagine it in an office setting, whether it's remote or in person, but I think it's even easier to see it living out in your daily life with the people that you are doing life next to and with.

[Pat Lencioni]

You know what's funny, Jenna? These letters come up every day. I was in the shower this morning.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

Thinking about this podcast. And by the way, the shower is where everything you and I, that's like the think tank, right?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yep.

[Pat Lencioni]

Because nobody's interrupting us. It feels good. And we get to. It's guilt free time to just. Just imagine.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

She comes in and she says, I need to borrow your discernment right now. And I know right away she's like, and I love it. And I'm like, okay. I get to give her. She's like, here's a problem. I need you to help me solve it. So she asks me for something I love to do now. If she knew she had to ask me for something, she goes, I need some enablement from you. And I know it's not, you're not gonna like it, but I really need you to do this for me. I'd be like, okay. And then I have to bear down and get it done. But the, the vocabulary allows us. And sometimes I have a great story. We bought a house at one point, the day after it closed, she goes, maybe we should have moved to a different city. And I was like, what? She was wi in a few months ago.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Come on.

[Pat Lencioni]

And she goes, I'm just wondering. And inventing. I'm like, oh, okay, okay. I thought she was galvanizing me, like, the day after, like, let's move.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Right. Signed up for this.

[Pat Lencioni]

We use our language to let people know where we are, you know, and it's really helpful.

[Jenna Kutcher]

I love that. So one thing I'm curious about is once you have your kind of working genius, do they change? Do they ever change? Is this who you are innately? Is this who you are forever? Like, do you want to focus on your geniuses, or do you want to try to, like, fix your frustrations? Like, how do we find the balance of that?

[Pat Lencioni]

That's a fabulous question, both of them. First of all, the factual answer. We're convinced that you're born this way. I remember as a child wanting to invent and discern, and in my family, I was never allowed to. They didn't have this. They didn't understand it. They thought. Nobody said, what's your opinion? You have good judgment. And it was really hard. So most people we talk to, they can trace back their things to their early. Like Tracy said, I was a little girl, and people were like, ask Tracy. She always knows what to do. So I don't think it changes.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Okay.

[Pat Lencioni]

I don't think we should work on our weaknesses. I mean, I think we need to know, like, all of us have to do things we don't love sometimes.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

But trying to get good at things that God didn't naturally give us as gifts is a little crazy. Now, maybe if we were so bad at them, we just need to get good enough to get by. But the world is full of people who are constantly working on the hardest thing for them out of guilt or shame, and then they're never happy. You know, Michael Jordan, a great story. They said when he first came into the NBA, he was not a great shooter. He was great at defense and dunking the ball, and it was amazing athletically. And they said there was two schools of thought in the off season. Go work on your shooting. Just shoot all the time. But what they said is, just keep being good at what you're good at. And when you do that, you'll actually get better at the things you're not naturally good at because you don't feel the pressure to be that way.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

So when we double down on our frustrations, we actually get worse at it, and we lose the confidence in the Things we're meant to be confident in.

[Jenna Kutcher]

I think that is probably one of the greatest lessons any listener could hear. And I also think it releases so much pressure that we're putting on ourselves to be all things to all people and be good at all of it. I think that it's a beautiful reminder of, like, when you maximize the areas that you are naturally good at, that you enjoy the enjoyment of your life and your work is, like, exponential. And at the end of the day, I think we do. We waste too much time working in the areas that we don't enjoy or that we're not good at. And I think that's where a lot of our burnout comes from. Our stress comes from. Our displeasure comes from. I think a lot of the questions of, like, is this really it? Or is this what it's supposed to feel, feel like, come from focusing on our frustrations too much.

[Pat Lencioni]

Yeah. You know, I will share. So from an early age, I was. I had childhood wounds around performance and pleasing people. Really bad. Really bad. And I got really good at the things I hated. So my weaknesses are enablement and tenacity, which means the worst job for me is, I'm going to ask you to do something. I just want you to say yes, and then I want you to do it perfectly. Yeah. My personality is one that, like, follows my nose. It's creative. I don't want to do everything the same way every day. I got straight A's. Throughout my whole life, I never missed classes. I always did what every teacher, parent, coach told me to do because I thought I was trying to earn love. And that's the way to do it, because that's what was expected of me. It actually wounded me terribly. By the time I got into my 20s, I was focused on doing things I hated. I thought that's what success was. That has a cost.

[Jenna Kutcher]

It does.

[Pat Lencioni]

And when we get really good at what we're not meant to be good at, we start to define ourselves. We almost think we have to be miserable to be successful. And so I would just encourage people, whatever age you're at, and in thinking about your kids, let them lean into the things they're meant to be good at. Yeah, they need to be okay at certain things that they don't like, but don't encourage them to be great at stuff they hate because you can kind of, like, mess up your wiring. And I'm. Now at my age, I'm rewiring things to finally recognize, oh, yeah, I don't. I got to let go of that.

[Jenna Kutcher]

I resonate so deeply on that. And I also feel like I look back at things and I'm like, did I do them because I enjoyed them or just because I was good at them? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, there are so many things where people would say, like, you're so good at this. You're so good at this. And so then naturally, that was the direction I went, Right? And it's like, you unpack it. And like, I was a collegiate diver, and I, to this day, hate being in pools. I hate it. We just went on vacation, and my husband was like, are you going to get into the pool? And I was like, I spent so many years of my life with wet hair, smelling like chlorine. I hate it. But I was really good at it. Like, I was just good at it. And so it's funny when you start to look back and you ask yourself, like, was I simply good at it or did I learn to be good at it or did I enjoy it? And I think that is where so many people that are, quote, successful are lacking joy and fulfillment in their everyday life and in the work that they're doing.

[Pat Lencioni]

Right. I was a basketball player and a football player, but I was tiny. I loved basketball, but I was also a distance runner because even though I was kind of young for my grade and I was small, I could be a distance runner. I hated it. Yeah. And I did it all through into college. And because people said, you're good at it. Well, yeah, I was good at it because I wanted so badly to be approved of, that I would work harder than anybody else. I would run for fear. And then people go. They would celebrate me. And I go, well, I can't stop doing this.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

It is not healthy. You know, I love this story. This. I can't remember. I don't know if it was a Bibi Bakila or this runner from Kenya. And he was, like, the best marathoner ever. And he retired. And when he retired, at the press conference, they said, so, are you gonna run for pleasure now? And he goes, no, I'm never going to run again. And they're like, why? He goes, I hate running. I did it because I was poor. I needed to get out of poverty. I'm going to get fat now and sit around and. Because he didn't. And there are people in life that go through most of their life doing something they hate. And if you have to, okay, God bless you. But most of us don't, and we do it further. We had to purify our intention say, is this really why I'm on earth? And what a great thing as a parent, if you can say to your kids or you work with somebody and you can say to somebody, hey, you don't have to be good at that, man. If you don't like that, yeah, pursue what makes you. What gives you joy.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes. I think this is so powerful. If somebody is listening and they go take the assessment, what would be the first action you want them to take after they figure out who they are? Like, what is the first thing you want to do to just start to see a result or a deeper understanding of what they're reading?

[Pat Lencioni]

I'd say show it to the people closest to you first and just go through it with them, because they will be the first one to celebrate with you the good things and celebrate what you're bad at. And I just did a podcast on this about celebrate what you're bad at. True humility is just the recognition of that which is true. And if you're good at things, a humble person is like, look at. I'm good at this. And it's a gift. Like, we say, God gives you the gift, so you can't brag about it. You go, isn't it cool that I have this gift? And then celebrate what you're terrible about at and say, isn't it amazing that I suck at this? And let people celebrate both with you, it will change everything. So share it with your spouse, share it with your best friends, share it with your coworkers, share it with your boss, and watch what happens. They're going to affirm you both in what you're wonderful at and what you struggle in, and you're going to feel like, oh, I'm allowed to be real and human and honest about this stuff, and it changes everything, Everything. So just share it, talk about it. It's a great thing to encourage them to do it, too, so you get a chance to celebrate them. It's one of the most cool things to watch two people debrief their working geniuses and frustrations and watch how their relationship changes.

[Jenna Kutcher]

I also just feel like, as you were saying, that it's like a chance to be fully seen, right? Like, it's like the parts of you that you have been hiding or ashamed of or, like, boxing away or pushing through. I feel like it's what we deeply crave as humans is to be fully seen, and it's an opportunity to do just that and to call that out in a way of, like, this is who I am. And here's how we can maximize the person that I already am and not necessarily the person I'm striving to become, which I think is really beautiful.

[Pat Lencioni]

Yeah, I totally agree. Everybody wants to be seen for who they are.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

Some people go through their whole lives being seen for something else. And to actually be able to go, hey, this is me, and have people. Some people will realize it for the first time.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Pat Lencioni]

Some probably see you, but they've never told you or you didn't realize how they saw you. So whatever it is you're going to come out of and going, I'm seen, and I'm understood and accepted for that. And that's a beautiful thing in life.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Where can everybody find out more about this? Find out more about you? Tune into your podcast. Give me all the places.

[Pat Lencioni]

All right, so to do this, you can go to workinggenius.com two GS in the middle, workinggenius.com and everything is right there. If you want to do it as a team and do your team map, or just do it individually or send a license to people, it costs $25. And we said when we did this, we had people go, no, this is a corporate tool. You should charge more for it. And we're like, no, we want every person in the world to do this.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes.

[Pat Lencioni]

So it's very accessible, and that's good. So workinggenius.com my company that produces this, and we're called the Table Group, and we've been a consulting firm and a think tank for 27 years. So we have a website, too, called tablegroup.com and that's where you can find out about our podcasts and everything else. We do a Working Genius podcast where we just unpack this a little bit for a half hour every couple weeks. And that's. You can just find that at wherever you find podcasts, the Working Genius podcast. And then I do a podcast about work life and culture and leadership, and that's called at the Table with Patrick Lincione. And we just talk about culture and life at work and how it impacts our lives and organizational health. It's not just corporate. It's really how corporations, society, and personal life kind of go together. But I will tell you, I'm gonna go write up another book just so I can get back on this podcast, because this conversation has been a blast.

[Jenna Kutcher]

It was so much fun, and I just think it's such a beautiful way to uncover and discover parts of you that might be adding frustration or stress or that might be sucking out potential joy in life because at the end of the day, I think we all deserve to be free. And I think anyone listening to this show is looking for freedom and fulfillment. And you're gonna find that when you know more about who you were born to be and how you can also get in the support that you need to shine. And I think it's a beautiful tool that I absolutely, absolutely love leveraging.

[Pat Lencioni]

Oh, that's so exciting. This is fun.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Thanks for being with me today.

[Pat Lencioni]

Hey, thanks for having me, Jenna. God bless.

[Jenna Kutcher]

I will tell you that this assessment is one of the best assessments I have ever taken, especially when it comes to working styles. Knowing where I thrive and shine has been so helpful, and it also explains the areas of my business that cause me the most stress, the most frustration, and the areas where I can claim more freedom. It's actually funny because if you listen back to certain episodes I've done over the years, you will 1000% see my assessment and the types that were defined for me, where they're shining and where they've also kind of tripped me up. And so I 100% recommend this. I think it's so powerful and I just think it's so spot on. It's like really uncanny how good it is. If you had to working genius.com you can use the code gold digger to save 20 off. It's a 25 assessment. I think you will earn back that investment ASAP. When you start to see the areas that are giving you joy and the areas that are sucking you dry again, that's working genius.com use the code Gold Digger. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the podcast. If you know anyone who could benefit from it, take a quick minute and share this episode with them. It's such a fun way to dig into who we are, who we were made to be, and the ways that we can feel more freedom and joy in our everyday life and at work. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the podcast. Until next time, keep on digging your biggest goals. Thanks for pulling up a seat for another episode of the Gold Digger podcast. I hope today's episode fueled you with inspiration, gave you information that you can turn into action, and realigned you with your true north in life and business. If you've enjoyed today's episode, head over to goldiggerpodcast.com for today's show. Notes, discount codes for our sponsors, freebies to fuel your results, and so much more. And if you haven't yet, make sure you're subscribed so that you never miss a future show. We'll see you next time, Gold Diggers. Please note, this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements, and individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in the episode. Your support through affiliate links or sponsored content helps us continue to bring you valuable content. Thank you for being a part of the Gold Digger community.