← The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
897: Hustle Culture Lied to You. What High Achievers Are Afraid to Admit
00:53:59
With Dr. Judith Joseph and Jenna Kutcher
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- [00:02]
Dr. Judith Joseph
We get so busy with chasing the price tags, you know, the things that we think are markers for success, but they're not actually making us happier. They make us feel worse because we have to keep them up. We have to keep up appearances. So we're chasing the idea of happiness because it looks good on the outside, but we're missing out on the experience of joy.
- [00:23]
Jenna Kutcher
I'm Jenna Kutcher, your host of the Gold Digger podcast. I escaped the corporate world at the age of 23 with nothing more than a 300 camera from craigslist list and a dream. Now I'm running a seven figure online business that feels even better than it looks. All from my house in small town Minnesota with my family here, we value time as our currency. We mix the woo and the work, and we are in the pursuit of building businesses that give us the freedom to live lives that we love. I've always loved turning big goals into reality, and I'm here to help you do the same. This isn't just a peek behind the curtain. Come along with me and my guests as we tear the whole curtain down. Every week we tackle practical no fluff marketing strategies and host honest discussions on what works and what doesn't. Join me and my expert guests for actionable insights to help you grow your dream business with confidence. Pull up a seat and get ready to be challenged, inspired and empowered. This is the Goal Digger podcast.
- [01:25]
Unknown Speaker
You're crushing it.
- [01:26]
Jenna Kutcher
You're checking boxes, hitting milestones, maybe even growing a team or scaling your business.
- [01:32]
Unknown Speaker
But if you're being honest, I mean really honest, you might not feel it.
- [01:36]
Jenna Kutcher
The joy you expected to come with.
- [01:38]
Unknown Speaker
All this success, well, it's nowhere to be found. That sounds familiar. Then today's episode is going to feel like a mirror and an empowering one. I am sitting down with Dr. Judith Joseph, a Columbia trained psychiatrist, an NYU professor, a researcher, and a social media mental health advocate. She's also the author of the groundbreaking new book high Functioning Overcome your hidden depression and reclaim your joy way. Dr. Judith has worked with high performers from the boardroom to the operating room, and she's here to unpack a surprisingly common experience. Looking like you have it all together while quietly running on empty, something I have personally experienced.
- [02:17]
Jenna Kutcher
She is the one who coined the.
- [02:19]
Unknown Speaker
Term high functioning depression and even conducted the first ever clinical study on it. Her book and her method called Ties T I E S offers a roadmap for ambitious people to reconnect with joy without burning it all down. So if you are building a business, leading a team, parenting Children or trying to keep it all together while feeling a little meh on the inside. Well, this episode is for you. We're diving into why your emotional flatness might be more than a passing mood. How to spot the signs of high functioning depression in yourself or in your peers, and most importantly, how to reclaim joy in your life. Dr. Judith, welcome to the Gold Digger podcast. Hustle culture tells women, if you're not exhausted, you're not doing enough.
- [03:02]
Jenna Kutcher
From what you've seen in your research.
- [03:03]
Unknown Speaker
And in your practice, how is that mindset not just toxic, but actually kind of this silent epidemic among high achieving women?
- [03:12]
Dr. Judith Joseph
I think it's unfair because women have been dealt a completely different deck of cards compared to other groups. And we're told that we have to be leaders or else we're losers. We're told that, you know, if we're not kind, then somehow we're broken. You know, we're told that we have to be boss ladies and that we're supposed to be happy. So when we feel unhappy, we get shame. I think, you know, when you think about how many barriers are in place for our happiness, there are so many obstacles, yet we're less likely to get support. So women are twice as likely to be depressed and anxious compared to men. Twice. The numbers don't lie. Yet we're constantly fed these, you know, pictures of, well, this is what you should be like. This is what you should look like. And so we're never ahead. We always feel as if we're five steps behind. Even though in reality we're doing well, we're doing the best that we can.
- [04:14]
Unknown Speaker
I mean, I think we all feel that. And it's like this collective energy as well. It's so interesting because I have two daughters and I feel like in doing therapy and all the different things I am constantly unpacking, like, what was I told as a kid that led to certain beliefs or how were these things instilled in us? And I want to talk about thought patterns because I feel like subconsciously and consciously there are so many things that we, as women are taught we're fed, we believe we have mindsets around. So what is like a daily habit or a thought pattern that business owners might think is totally, quote, normal but is actually maybe sabotaging their mental health?
- [04:59]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Well, there is an actual difference between burnout and high functioning depression. And so someone who goes into workplaces and has been in high offices, you know, I see this all the time. People are labeling what they're experiencing incorrectly. The problem with that is that if you don't label it properly, if you're not getting the correct label, you're not going to get the correct support. So burnout is this phenomenon. And I have this brain here that I use for patients. And since I'm in the office, I'm going to show you this. I know if you can see it, but this is the brain in the workplace. When you have all these stressors happening, when all of these things are happening to the brain, you have these symptoms. But when you leave the workplace, that brain feels relief. It's out of the environment where all the stress is. It's out of the environment that's causing the problem, right? Think external problems causing it. High function depression is different. You're in the workplace and you have these symptoms. But even when you leave the workplace, you're still busy, you still can't slow down. You're taking on a friend's side hustle, you're taking on two or three of your own, you're taking on your friend's problems or you're taking all your kids projects, or you can't sit still, you're cleaning up your house, you just can't get relief, right? So the problem is internal, it's inside, it's not external. And that's the issue. So a lot of people, you know, they go through all these courses for burnout, they go through all these exercises and they still don't get better. It's because it's not the environment, that's only the issue. There's also something within that you're not resolving. So you're so busy all the time, when you sit still, you feel empty. When you aren't working, you feel restless. There's something unresolved inside of you that's causing the symptoms and that's why you're not getting relief. We need to name it as it is. Yes, sometimes workplaces are problematic, but also sometimes there's something happening in the individual that we want to address.
- [06:57]
Unknown Speaker
Okay, this leads me to a great question that is something that I think many people may be wondering is like for people that are experiencing either of those scenarios, they're probably not people that are in a practice to like get still and to notice their thoughts. And so what would be a way to maybe check in to help you start to separate or evaluate. Obviously they likely need more support outside of themselves. But what would be a way to start to ask which one is it?
- [07:28]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Well, I developed a system called the 5Vs to help people with this. And the reason I chose five is Because I've traveled the world looking at mental health across different cultures, different languages and so forth. And the number five pops up all the time. And I think it's because most of us have five fingers. But I wanted people to look at their hand and just be able to say, okay, I am built with the DNA for joy, but I'm having a hard time accessing right now, so tapping into one of the five Es. And I always start with the first one, which is validation. Validation is really important because there's a term in psychology called affect labeling. And what it means is that if you can name how you feel and name the emotion appropriately, your anxiety goes down automatically. Right? And the reason that is is because the human brain, you know, is really afraid of uncertainty. So if you don't know what you're experiencing, then you get really anxious. So just naming the emotion can actually illuminate things for you. And it's, I use this analogy all the time. It's, it's like if you were in a really dark space and you heard a loud crash and you, you didn't know what it was, some of us would start freaking out, we'd start screaming, running or swinging. But if you turn the light on and you see what it is you, there's a sense of calm. Oh, it was just this object that fell. I'm safe. That's why naming the emotion is so important. And many times, especially with high functioning folks, they'll come to my office and they'll say, oh, I'm so angry all the time, I have anger issues. But then when we peel back, it's actually not anger, it's anxiety. And they're just naming it inappropriately. So the tools they're using for this emotion are incorrect. You know, if you, if you're naming it appropriately and it's anxiety, then you work on how to use skills to address that. Anxiety versus anger management, right? So naming the emotion is very, very important. And naming how you feel and accepting it is important. Many times as busy individuals, we feel things in our body that we ignore, right? We'll sit at a desk and our neck is hurting and our back is hurting and our butt is hurting and we're not doing anything about it. But if we got into the practice of, oh, like, actually I feel tense and achy, actually I think I need to get up and walk. Then we feel better, the blood starts flowing, the toxins leave our muscles, the aches get better, right? And then I recently gave this talk to this room of 300 high powered women. And I said to them, how many of you have gone through a day? You didn't pee? Right. And they just laughed. Right? Yeah. Because they sit through their meetings and they don't even use the bathroom. It's really hard to feel relaxed and joyful when your belly is distended with urine. Right. So these are all the little ways that we just don't accept or validate ourselves that are so simple. And if we get into the practice of this, we just have so many more answers, and we get led into the right direction for how to really reclaim our joy. Because we're understanding the science of our happiness better. Mm.
- [10:30]
Unknown Speaker
What's the next V? Let's go through them. I want them all.
- [10:33]
Dr. Judith Joseph
The next V is venting. So in my lab, I'll have people come in and we'll blow up a really big red balloon, will take turns dunking that balloon in water, and 100% of the time, that balloon will pop up. Right. Because you can't out cheat physics. The numbers don't lie. Right. So what then? What we'll do is we'll have each person take turns deflating the balloon, and then the air goes out of that balloon. It's just like that with our emotions. If we don't learn to express our emotions and let them out, it'll pop up in our health. It'll pop up in our relationships. It pops up at work. It pops up in ways that we can't control it. And so expressing, inventing, traditionally, it's done verbally. And if you don't have a therapist, then, you know, I advise you talk to one or two people. You pick one or two people. Right. You don't want to go out and vent to everyone, and you want to be careful about who you're venting to. You want it to be a reciprocal relationship. Because the science shows us that if you're not venting in ways that are kind or empathic and it's not reciprocal, then you're going to sour that relationship, and you're not going to get the feedback that actually helps you to come to a resolution. Right. So you want to be intentional about who you're venting to and why you're venting. Are you venting to get a resolution, or are you venting to get someone on your side? Because that's probably not the healthiest way to vent. And you also want to think about asking for emotional consent. So before you start venting, you want to say, is this a good time? Like, you know, I really have to talk to you about something important. Because the worst thing that happens is that you go invent and then the person a, they, it's not a good time for them and they just listen to you just because they feel obligated. Right? And you don't get anything out of that. So there are ways to do it so that it's actually beneficial. Because there's recent data that shows that when you vent in ways that aren't considerate, that are not intentional, that you actually feel worse. The research papers say that it's like pouring gas onto a fire. So you actually feel worse.
- [12:42]
Unknown Speaker
Right, I can see that. I can totally see that.
- [12:46]
Dr. Judith Joseph
And there are other ways of venting. You don't have to do it verbally. You can write in a journal. A lot of my neurodivergent clients who are not as verbal, they'll say, okay, I like to write or I like to draw, you know, however feels authentic to you. And my faith based clients will pray, my pediatric patients will cry. And you know, that's healthy. Crying is so healthy. Whenever I coach the parents and they're like, my child is crying all the time, I say, well, try this. Tell your child that when they're crying, crying is healthy. It's a great way to get out sadness, right? Or emotions or frustration. And I tell you, nine times out of 10, that child will stop crying. They feel heard, they feel validated, and they feel better. If you tell a child stop crying, you know, you're a crybaby, they cry more, right? Like more aggressively, louder. So crying can be a very healthy way of venting.
- [13:37]
Unknown Speaker
I love this. Okay, so we've got validation and venting. Where are we going next?
- [13:42]
Dr. Judith Joseph
So next is values. Values are things that are priceless. Not with the price tags. So when you think of values, you're thinking of things that bring your life meaning and purpose. And these are things like, you know, being out in nature. Many people in the big city like where I work, they forget how important nature is. And a lot of times we have to work back to what brought them meaning and purpose. And sometimes I literally prescribe, take a walk, you know, feel the grass. Touch grass. Truly touch grass. Yes, yes. When they do that, they actually start to feel joyful again. Other things like, you know, being connected to community, a sense of purpose. We get so busy with chasing the price tags, you know, the things that we think are markers for success, but they're not actually making us happier. In fact, they make us feel worse because we have to keep them up. We have to Keep up appearances. So we're chasing the idea of happiness because it looks good on the outside, but we're missing out on the experience of joy. And so when you are thinking about values, these are the things that allow you to experience joy every day. And I'd like to make that clarification between happiness and joy, because in my lab, when we add up happiness, we're like, we're adding up the experiences of joy. And this is how we measure if someone's getting better, right? Or staying the same or getting worse. We ask them things like, when you ate your food, did you savor it? Was it yummy? Okay, if they say yes, that's a point. We asked them things like, you know, if you were tired and you took a rest, do you feel refreshed? If you were lonely and you reached out to someone and you connected with them, did you feel seen and heard? These are all points when you were stressed out, were you able to soothe and to feel less tense? Because it's really hard to be joyful when you're stressed, right? So these are all the markers for happiness that we add up and that's how we determine if someone's becoming happier. But patients, when they come into the private practice, they'll say, well, I just want to be happy. And when you ask them what happiness is, they'll say, well, happiness is when I get that job, or happiness is when I pay off my debt, or happiness is when I get this partner, this dream partner, you know, this soulmate. But when they get all these things, they're still unhappy, right? Because they're chasing the idea of happiness, but they're missing out on the experience of joy. And so when, when you think of values, what brings you those experiences of joy? That's how you know that you're in the right place.
- [16:08]
Jenna Kutcher
You ever get served an ad that made you wonder, how did this even end up in my feed? The other day I got served an ad for a luxury Penthouse concierge in Manhattan. Like, I live in small town Minnesota. Our idea valet here is a teen in Crocs handing you your iced coffee at the drive thru. Unless that Penthouse comes with mosquito spray and a Tater Tot hot dish, I'm out. It's frustrating, not just as a consumer, but for the business. Wasting their hard earned budget on the wrong audience. That's why when it comes to reaching the right professionals, the solution is clear. LinkedIn ads. With over a billion users on LinkedIn today, your message stands the best chance of reaching the people who actually matter. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. LinkedIn lets you target by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, even company revenue. Basically, all the professionals you need to reach are right there in one place. So stop wasting your precious budget on the wrong audience and start connecting with the right people. Only on LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign. So you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com goal that's LinkedIn.com goal. Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. Okay, I've got to tell you about a podcast that I'm completely hooked on right now. It's called this is Small Business and it's a brand new season explores one of my all time favorite themes, Taking Bold Risks. Hosted by the amazing Andrea Marquez, this season pulls you behind the curtain as she sits down with founders who transform their maybe one day ideas into let's do this success stories. We're talking nail biting moments, raw honesty about the hustle, and powerful advice that lights a fire in you. I got actual chills just listening to the trailer. Like every single story makes me pause and think, wow, we literally all start somewhere. And if you've ever felt that tug to take your next big leap, this season might be the exact push and confidence boost you've been waiting for. So do yourself a favor, follow this is Small Business on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. These stories will move you, motivate you, and remind you that courage is the first step towards chasing what really matters.
- [18:21]
Unknown Speaker
I'm like eating this up. This is so good.
- [18:23]
Dr. Judith Joseph
The next V is vitals. This is like the annoying one, right? This is what your doctors tell you to do. They're like, make sure you're getting good sleep, which is important, right? Sleep is so restorative, you know, getting great movement because movement does make you feel happier eating the right foods. So foods that feed your body and brain and decrease inflammation, those are really important vitals. But I added three additional vitals that are non traditional vitals. So these are things like your relationship with technology. And you know, when you think about it, we have a lot of this emerging data on pediatric digital exposure and how it's not great for kids. But the data is now pointing to the fact that it's not great for adults as well. So things like seeing our face all the time. You know, I do a lot of zoom sessions with patients and you know, when they come in in person, I love that more because when you think about it, we're looking at our faces way too much. Yeah, we see our face while we're seeing other people, and it's creating a burden on us on an unconscious, deeper level. It's causing us to judge ourselves harshly. So we're looking at our face to see if there's something in our hair and our eye and. Or how we look, and it's causing unnecessary stress. And, you know, we were meant to look at other people. We're meant to look at other people's eyes, their face, their hands, to see if they were safe or not to see if they were attaching to us. You know, that's what we were designed for, not to look at ourselves so often, but we're doing that. You know, we're constantly taking selfies. We're constantly on FaceTime. We're. We're constantly looking at our. At ourselves. And what. What happens is that we start to judge ourselves instead of judging others. We start to scrutinize ourselves instead of looking at others and being present. So be mindful of how much you are being exposed to technology. What also happens is that we're getting this zoom fatigue, and there's this whole center at Stanford that studies it and how unhealthy it is for us to be sedentary at a desk looking at, like, 10 people at one time. Nowhere in our lives do we line people up and look at them at.
- [20:33]
Unknown Speaker
At the same time in a grid like the Brady Bunch. Right.
- [20:37]
Dr. Judith Joseph
It's so unnatural, and it creates so much stress. So no wonder we're tired. No wonder we feel a lack of joy. No wonder we experience something called anhedonia, which is a scientific term that means a lack of pleasure and interest. We feel. Meh, blah. Right. Our brains are in overdrive. So really try to understand your relationship with technology and how much exposure you're getting, because that's where we're losing our points of joy. We're so busy trying to become happy, and we don't even understand the science of what's making us unhappy. And that's where we need to start. Right? And the other parts of the vitals that are not the traditional vitals are our relationships with other people, because the studies at Harvard will tell us that it's our relationship with others that is the predictor of our health and our happiness. And if we only knew that when we were little, if we were only taught that, yes, yes, we have better friendships, we'd set better boundaries with toxic people. Right. But, you know, for many of my clients who are already partnered or who are already in these toxic relationships, it's very difficult to get out of them. It's very, very challenging because once you attach, you feel so stuck. And so a lot of education has to go into how do you set boundaries, how do you protect your peace? Because once you're in these toxic situation, very, very challenging to get out of them. And you know, you could eat all the kale you want, but if you're partnered with someone toxic, you're going to be unhappy. You know, that's the reality of it. And the last vital that is not traditionally in the textbook is our work life balance, which for many of us is non existent. So really practicing how to leave work at work and how to really engage in your home life and be present because we could have these beautiful families and these beautiful homes, but we're not enjoying it because our mind, right. That brain can't disconnect. And I think that that's a challenge for at least many of my clients. And then the fifth V is vision. Vision is how do you celebrate your wins? How do you plan joy in the future so you don't get stuck in the past? And that doesn't have to be a big thing. It doesn't have to be a grand celebration. It could be something as small as, okay, I finished this project at work, I'm not going to be like on to the next. I'm going to say, wow, I did that. I could have procrastinated, but I didn't. I finished it on time. Let me just take a break and let me go for a walk or let me eat my food not in front of a screen, let me taste it, you know, or you know, if I get my kid to school on time, which is always a challenge for me, you know, let me sit in my living room and enjoy my coffee and peace and that's my win. But how do you plant these little nuggets of joy to keep you moving forward so that you celebrate your wins? You don't get stuck in the past. So it's very simple. The five Es. I wanted to make it simple enough so that children could do it, so that families could do it.
- [23:29]
Unknown Speaker
As a mom, I'm like, yes, I'm loving this.
- [23:35]
Dr. Judith Joseph
And has to be rooted in science. And that's the thing, like a lot of times we don't understand how basic science, it's so easy to understand, but we think it has to be so complex. Yeah, but we're again, we're chasing these things that don't make sense when we're missing out on the basic points of joy that are right in front of us every single day.
- [23:54]
Unknown Speaker
Oh, my gosh. I'm obsessed with this. And I am listening through the lens of myself. But also, I have two daughters, six and three. And even this morning, one of my daughters is just a deep feeler. She's always just been like, this deep, feeling child. It's so beautiful. I like. I love that part of her. And today she was feeling disappointed in something, and we sat on the floor, and I asked her, I said, what are you feeling? And she was able to name it. I said, where do you feel it in your body? Because I also just feel like too. It's like she was like, in my chest, and I was like, that's where I feel things a lot too. And I was like, we did deep breaths, and I was like, get back into your body. Like, you're safe in your body. But it was such an experience of, like, when we know better, we can do better. And there's so much information out there. But I love how you took this because it's easy to apply. I think there's no lack of information. There's lack of application of the information. And so I think it's just such a beautiful way to do that. And I like the five fingers. I think that can help all of us. One thing I'm so curious about is your take on resiliency. So before I became an entrepreneur, I worked for a company, and one of the things that they often talked about was the ability to be resilient and adaptable. And so how can we kind of tell, especially as entrepreneurs, the difference. Difference between being strong and being stuck in survival mode? Like, how resilient should we be? Is this something we should be aiming for? Is this something that we've been told we need to be and we're doing it too much?
- [25:21]
Dr. Judith Joseph
I think people confuse the two. Right. I think they think that a resilient person is someone who is, like, doing a hundred things at once.
- [25:32]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [25:33]
Dr. Judith Joseph
But for me, what I've learned over time is that the people I admire the most are the ones who are able to tap into joy and be calm. Right. There's, like, a peace about them. And I started noticing this a lot when I traveled. I'd see these gurus and these leaders. They didn't have much. They weren't impressive in terms of the materialistic accumulation, but their power was so quiet. Like, they had so much peace, and they were joyful. You know, you would think, like, oh, you have like nothing to your name, you know, you have a mat, bread and water, but you're just like peaceful. It's really hard to access joy when you're stressed. You know, I know so many powerful people, but they are so stressed. They're doing a gazillion things at once and there's no inner peace and they can't quiet their brain. So they're constantly running, they're constantly restless. And so when I mark resilience, I ask people, are you able to sit still and feel peaceful? You know, and when you are in a crisis, how do you deal with that? And you'll notice a difference. People who are in crisis, they just go off the rails. But the ones who are really strong, right, really resilient, they're quiet, they're thoughtful, they're at peace. They know that no matter what, it's going to be okay, you know. And those people are very hard to find, right? They're not in these high powered spaces that we're accustomed to seeking. You know, they're just not finding these leaders that are not instilling fear, that are not acting out of fear. They're just like a diamond. And so when I'm working with my, I like to go back to parents and children because that's a power dynamic a lot of people understand because it's a very common one when working with parents and children, you know, you have to be the change you want to see. And many times when I see kids, a lot of times they're dysregulated. There are problems happening or else you don't end up in a child psychiatrist's office. Right. But the parents have to be that mirror for that child. When things are chaotic, they have to show that we're going to be okay, this is what we're going to do. There's safety in that routine, you know. And when I treat adults, you know, I view them as big kids. Right? Yeah. Surely children in a big body.
- [27:55]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [27:56]
Dr. Judith Joseph
So many of the patterns that are problematic for them at this time in their lives, you know, it started at a younger age. Maybe they didn't have the best attachments. Maybe they had, you know, this idea that you had to be a certain way in order to get ahead. And it's creating problems in their current relationships and they're not able to tap into joy. So we're doing a lot of reparenting between the two of us in our sessions. And so I asked people, you know, how do you access your joy? What are the obstacles getting in the way of your joy. And that's where we usually start. Because we're not taught that way. We're not programmed to think, wait, how can I even understand how to be happy if I don't understand? What's the unhappiness? Where is that coming from? We're just taught, oh, like chase happy, do this, do that. But we don't even understand what's making us unhappy. And we don't honor the fact that there's only one us, there's only one you, there's only one me ever in the future of the universe, in the history of the universe. So take the time to understand you. What is it that's making you unhappy? What's pulling away from your joy? And then you know how to add back to that joy, you know. So it's a very individualized approach. Again, it's simple. I wish I could say it was rocket science, but often leave the simple on the the table.
- [29:16]
Jenna Kutcher
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- [30:34]
Unknown Speaker
And I've always been committed to that.
- [30:36]
Jenna Kutcher
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- [33:11]
Unknown Speaker
You are like speaking straight into my heart. So to give you slight context. I went on a joy journey last year. So I have two daughters. They're six and three. And I felt like I was kind of coming out of the weeds of those early days, right? My bandwidth was expanding a little bit. My sleep was getting a little bit better. And I remember I had this moment last year where I was like, what do I love to do outside of work and motherhood? Right? Like, who am I as a human, as an individual soul outside of these two things? And I went wild, experimenting within the parameters of, like, learning how to bake sourdough bread in a community ed class in a church basement. And we planted a garden for the first time. Now we have chickens, the farms is growing. We're fostering animals. We're doing all of these things. And for me, it took that. I wanted my work to be the most boring piece of my life. Like, I wanted to show up to a conversation and not talk about what happened at work or what I'm working on. But, like, what do I love to do? And I'm sure you see this too. I love just being around passionate people. I don't care if I have zero interest if they're like, into fly fishing and I know nothing about it. When you are with somebody that has joy, it is so contagious, right? Like, I could listen to somebody speak about something they're joyful about, even if I have no interest in it because there's just like, it's a higher frequency or something. I mean, maybe it is. Tell me, is that true?
- [34:47]
Dr. Judith Joseph
It is true. You know, joy is contagious in the way that anhedonia, a lack of joy is contagious. And, you know, when you walk in, I go to a lot of workplace settings. You walk in and you can tell right away. Yeah, you can tell right away if the leader is joyful. Because if people are like. And they're like grumpy and they're slow and they're like, oh, and they're shaking, then, you know, that's not a happy workplace. It's just not joyful. But if you walk in and they're like, hey, how you doing? Oh, yeah, come over here, or how can I help you? You know that leader is joyful, Right. It spreads the same for families.
- [35:22]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [35:22]
Dr. Judith Joseph
You know, when you're in families where the parent is over committed, usually the kids over committed, usually the partners over, you know, like, everyone's like busy bees. They don't connect. They're. They're just not into each other. There's no sense of A purpose, right? But then you walk into families where they are. They really know who they are. They're connected, they're joyful. You can. It's palpable, right? It is contagious. And not in the way that a virus is, right? In the way that a cold is, but in the way that cultures can be contagious. And it's really important to invest in joy because studies show that joyful people are healthier physically, they have better relationships, the better outcomes in their jobs, and they're more likely to give back to their communities. They're more likely to see a problem and fix it. Right? People used to think, oh, it's like disgruntled, unhappy people who fix problems. No, no, no, no. It's people who are joyful, right? Because they want that joy to spread. So it's worth it to do what you did, tap into, okay? What really brings me meaning and purpose. You recognize the problem, but a lot of people don't. A lot of people say, well, especially in my. In my field in mental health, they'll say, well, we're trying to identify people who are, like, hopeless or suicidal or sad. We're not in the business of cultivating joy. And I think that's a big error on our part. I think we need to start focusing on joy because joy has always been a form of resilience, of survival for human beings and joyful people. They literally change the world for the. For the better. So we have to prioritize joy. It is a survival, but not just individually, but for our entire community.
- [37:02]
Unknown Speaker
Oh, I love that. And as you said that, I was like, yes, in the last year, I got involved in our local soup kitchen. Now I'm getting involved in the school. It's like, I feel like my time expanded when I made space for it. And I think the argument that so many people have that they don't have time for that is faulty thinking. Now here, since you're an expert, I want to ask you something. So I have ADHD diagnosed, and I have found that when I have the ability to funnel some of my energy into things like gardening or chopping vegetables at the soup kitchen, my thoughts are actually straighter because I'm almost subconsciously busy in a way that allows me to have more of a single line of thought. But I also feel like it has unlocked my creativity in my work.
- [37:51]
Jenna Kutcher
Right.
- [37:51]
Unknown Speaker
So the argument that we have against taking time to have hobbies, enjoy outside of work, I think is the wrong one.
- [37:59]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Well, I found that with my clients who have ADHD both pediatric and adult, having a way to channel. Because ADHD often travels with anxiety, right?
- [38:08]
Unknown Speaker
Yes. They're co pilots on the journey.
- [38:10]
Dr. Judith Joseph
They are, yes. And that's why sometimes diagnosing can be confusing because they travel together. But having a way to use your senses to stay present and grounded is very powerful. That's why with my clients, the pediatric ones, I have slime. So when we're in sessions, we're playing with slime because there's clarity. That happens when you're able to ground yourself using the senses because the focusing can be so challenging. But with my adult clients, some of them like slime, but others like to really use their hands, crafting, you know, just doing things like crocheting. All of that brings clarity because you're able to stay present and to focus more. So it's counterintuitive. You're thinking, oh, like, isn't multitasking bad? No. It can be very, very powerful as a tool to help people to stay focused and grounded.
- [39:01]
Unknown Speaker
I love that. Okay. One of the things I have to ask you about, because you talk about this in your book, is you talk about numbing and achievement as coping strategies. And I think this transitions our conversation in a helpful way because oftentimes I think business owners can recognize that they create chaos. Right. A lot of entrepreneurs are agents of chaos and that they can often use their business and their busyness because of the business as a way to emotionally avoid other areas of their life. I know I've gone through seasons of neglect in other areas of my life where it's like cracking open the laptop from the minute you wake up to when you go to bed. Let's talk about numbing and achievement, because I think a lot of people use those in their business.
- [39:46]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Yeah. Well, you know how we talked about that brain.
- [39:49]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [39:49]
Dr. Judith Joseph
That in the workplace, can't relax, has all these symptoms outside, can't relax. There's usually something inside or unresolved that they're running from. They think they're chasing happiness, but they're actually trying to outrun something they haven't processed in the past. And in my PTSD studies, what I found is that when people have unresolved past traumas, you know, some people will avoid people, places or situations like the textbook trauma. But those of us who cope by busying, we're avoiding dealing with it by taking on a project or two or, you know, working non stop. Right. That's our way of avoidance. So you won't find that in the textbooks, but in the study that I conducted, the first in the world on high functioning depression. I found that unresolved trauma was linked to this busyness. And we're not in mental health trained to look at it that way. We are, we're trained to look at people breaking down.
- [40:43]
Unknown Speaker
Yes.
- [40:44]
Dr. Judith Joseph
You know, as a response to pain, not overworking. But that tide is, is turning. You know that tide is turning. A lot of therapists are reaching out to me saying, I need to understand this better. This is like most of my clients, you know, we weren't taught this. A lot of us.
- [41:00]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes.
- [41:01]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [41:02]
Dr. Judith Joseph
So we really, really do have to support those of us who function over function, who are very busy, because we're the ones that other people are leaning on. We need to support us because just because we're rocks, it doesn't mean that we don't struggle. And so there's this silent struggle behind this mask of pathological productivity. And the workplaces will reward you because they're benefiting. Right. They're benefit your, your friends who milk you for everything that you do for them. They'll benefit, they won't complain. But you are missing out on your joy. And your joy is important. Your joy is what's going to keep your health going. It's going to keep your relationships happy. It's going to keep you doing things that give you meaning and purpose. And it's going to help you to change the world for better. And so I think people need to realize that this numbing and this doing is a coping mechanism. It may have helped you at some point along the way, but. But the more you push down that pain and you don't process it, you're also gonna be pushing down your ability to feel that joy. And that is a problem.
- [42:03]
Unknown Speaker
It's a huge problem. I think that that area is so important, especially with entrepreneurs, because I'm surrounded by them. And it's like the second somebody achieves something, they're on to the next thing.
- [42:15]
Jenna Kutcher
Right.
- [42:16]
Unknown Speaker
So I loved when you were talking about the ability to pause before you move forward because I think entrepreneurs are the, are the worst at this. It's like they're so sick of their work that they're on to the next work before it's even done what it's intended to do. So I think this is so powerful. And I know for myself, like I.
- [42:35]
Jenna Kutcher
Used to really struggle.
- [42:36]
Unknown Speaker
Even, let's say in a yoga class when we got to Shavasana, my head was in a million different places. I wanted to get up and walk out of the room and just get on with My life, like, the exercise was done, and I have had to learn how to get comfortable in resting, because for me, rest takes work, right?
- [42:52]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Yes.
- [42:53]
Unknown Speaker
And it's almost easier to be like, I should just be productive, because if it's going to take all this work to actually rest, what's the point in it? So what would you say to somebody? Because that was me for a very long time, and I can catch myself when I get in that cycle of constantly wanting to be productive. And there's always things to do you're never going to be done. And so for people that say that they're incapable of rest, like I once did, what would you.
- [43:17]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Well, you know, it's something I've had to deal with personally as well. I mean, look at the degrees above me. I have so many degrees, I can't even hang them all because there's just not enough room. But I'm someone who tells myself, oh, you're lazy all the time. And no one would think I'm lazy. And so for me, that first V, that validation is so important because every day I'm, like, therapizing myself. I'm like, wait a second. You have scarcity trauma because you came to this country with very little, and you have to. You've always felt like you had to work, work, work. So you never run out of resources, and that's why you feel lazy when you sit still. So I'm like, therapizing myself. I'm like, okay, yes, so I do deserve this rest because I'm not lazy. Look at all that I've done. I get to, like, take a break in between patients. I get to take a break in between projects, but it's a constant thing I have to do. And so I think being realistic with yourself and saying, oh, this is why I am this, this way, trying to understand that past pain. And what led you to this place? Was it, you know, a parent who had substance abuse issues and was drinking all the time and you had to take care of yourself? Is that why you can't slow down that unprocessed trauma? Or was it, you know, something bad that happened to you when you were in college, and then you just feel like you don't want to deal with it? Like, try to understand that and honor it? And, yeah, you might cry a bit. Yeah, it might hurt, but at least you're, like, getting to, like, what was it? What were the things that led you to this place so that you can process it and start to feel joy and get the rest that you Deserve. So like, personally I have to tell myself all the time. I have to talk to myself all the time. I self validate all the time. And I'm a board certified psychiatrist, so if I have to do it.
- [44:55]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So Mel Robbins is a dear friend of mine and I had never, never done therapy and my friend Mel had recommended her therapist. And one of the interesting things that I started to learn about myself was as a child I was super into gymnastics. Like talking almost five hours a night as a child at the gym. And so I was somebody that during lunch and on the bus rides I would do all of my homework because I didn't have time when I was in the gym. And so my teachers would always say, oh, she's so driven, she's so, you know, she's so disciplined, all these things. And now as an adult I'm doing so much unwiring of like trying to fill every minute productively to get ahead so that I never fall behind. Right. And so I've just. It's so important because I love how you're talking about like things that happen to us stick with us. Right. And there's big t traumas and little t traumas and the more that you know it, I think the more you have grace for yourself, the more you can catch yourself. And this world has kept us so busy that it's like we can't even stop to think or to process. So I, I just connect with your work so deeply because I think you look at the whole human and the whole human experience and it connects so many dots that I think are missing for us.
- [46:15]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Yeah. What you're saying, like you didn't have any time to just be. And like, again, it's hard to access joy when you're so busy. I don't know anyone who's stressed out, who's joyful. It's just, it's really difficult. So allowing yourself to slow down, how.
- [46:30]
Unknown Speaker
Do we start to unpack that? Because everybody that's listening is probably stressed for something. So how do we stop the cycle or at least become aware of it?
- [46:40]
Dr. Judith Joseph
I like to practice the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I do this all the time. Right. I therapize myself, but I do it with my patients too. I'll sit with them and usually we'll have like a warm cup of tea. So I have my warm cup of tea.
- [46:54]
Unknown Speaker
Yep.
- [46:54]
Dr. Judith Joseph
And what I'll do is I'll think about five things that I can see. So I'll describe the color of the tea, the glistening of the light. On the tea, the glass, my nails, the details on the cup, you know, and then four things I can feel. So I feel the warm glass. I feel how hard the clay is on my hands. I feel the soft cushion, the soft carpet beneath my feet. And then three things that I can hear. So it's New York City, so I hear a siren outside, but I also hear the sound of the tea in the glass. I hear my nails against the glass. And then two things I can smell. So you can smell this flavor of the tea. I smell the perfume on my skin. And then one thing I could taste. You sip it.
- [47:47]
Unknown Speaker
Right?
- [47:49]
Dr. Judith Joseph
So you taste the tea. You taste the flavors. When you're doing things like that, you're staying so present in that moment that you're not really thinking about anything else. And I teach my clients how to do this method because it's so easy to do. You could do it anywhere. It's not expensive, it's accessible. And it trains you that you can slow down, that you have the capacity. Because when you're doing that, you're not thinking about the bills you have to pay. You're not thinking about the next meeting. You're not thinking about something that happened, you know, early in the morning, you're so present. And training yourself that way is so powerful, because there's a tool in therapy called metacognition, where you literally, you acknowledge that your problems are still there, the stress is still there, but you're choosing to not engage with it, and you're retraining your brain to be able to grasp joy in the present. It's such a powerful tool for those of us who are anxious, who ruminate, because it shows us that, you know, okay, it doesn't mean our problems don't exist, but it shows us that we have the capacity to stay present and to access joy no matter what.
- [48:49]
Unknown Speaker
As you did that, I swear to you, my nervous system calmed. Like, as you. Isn't it wild, though? And it's like, it is. It's so accessible. I also think it's an incredible tool to teach your kids, like, because kids, for me, like, my kids, are such a mirror of the areas that I need to heal within myself, of the things I might have needed as a child. And I feel like kids are presence agents, as in, like the other day, we watched an ant hill for probably 20 minutes. Four of us gathered around watching which aunt was going where. And it's like, it's almost impossible with children to not be present because they're seeing every little thing. And you See it. And so I just. It was interesting as you did that. I felt like, my chest release. I felt my, like, shoulders go down. And it's such a simple thing. And I mean, imagine if we invited that in before we ate our meals. I think we would enjoy our food a lot more. Like, imagine if we did that before we read bedtime stories to our kids. If you have children, you'd probably be.
- [49:54]
Jenna Kutcher
Present in the reading.
- [49:56]
Unknown Speaker
Right. And not thinking about other things. Like, it's so simple. And I think it's so challenging, too.
- [50:05]
Dr. Judith Joseph
It is. You have to make time for it.
- [50:07]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [50:07]
Dr. Judith Joseph
You know, you have to honor it.
- [50:09]
Unknown Speaker
20 seconds.
- [50:11]
Dr. Judith Joseph
It didn't take very long at all.
- [50:13]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [50:14]
Dr. Judith Joseph
But it's such a powerful tool. It's simple and powerful.
- [50:17]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. What is something that you want our listeners to walk away with if there is one thing you want them to implement today? Because you've given absolutely incredible information. What is something that they can do as they move through their day today after listening to this conversation?
- [50:36]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Well, I want them to thank themselves because they didn't have to take the time to be curious about the signs of their happiness. They could have done something else so that again, you're celebrating your win. And also, just like. Like on a daily basis or every now and then, just. Just look at your hand and say, I'm built with the DNA for joy. Joy is my birthright, and I can reclaim it. You have the tools, but I don't think a lot of people know that. I think they think, well, maybe I tried this and that didn't work for me. Take the time to understand the science of your happiness. What are the things that are taking away from your happiness? Then you know how to add back to that. But happiness and joy, they're yours. It is your birthright. It is built into your DNA. So try to reclaim that joy.
- [51:20]
Unknown Speaker
Where can everybody find out more about you? Check out your work, learn more about you, follow you? Give me all the places so you.
- [51:28]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Can follow me at. Dr. Judith Joseph, and my website is Dr. JudithJoseph.com and you can buy my book High Functioning. It's sold wherever books are sold. And there's lots of tips in there, more than we talked about here, but they definitely build on the principles we discussed.
- [51:45]
Unknown Speaker
Thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I am so excited about your work and the way that it is changing the narrative, and I just can't wait for women to reclaim their joy with your help. So thank you for being on the show.
- [51:59]
Dr. Judith Joseph
Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation.
- [52:03]
Unknown Speaker
Oh my goodness, that conversation. Mm. It was so powerful and filled with information that we can actually apply to reclaim joy in our lives. I think Dr. Judith is absolutely incredible. I think her work is groundbreaking. And I think in this era that we find ourselves in, doing this work to find joy in our lives is the most important work we can do, not only for ourselves, but for future generations. I hope you love this episode. If you loved it, will you take a second and just share it with somebody in your life who could benefit from it? Start a little podcast club, talk about this episode together, bring it up in conversations and allow joy to seep in through the ways that you're not just getting information, but the ways you're implementing it into your lives. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Gold Digger podcast. I so appreciate you being here. And of course, until next time, keep on digging your biggest goals, but also keep on reclaiming your birthright, which is your joy. Thanks for pulling up a seat for.
- [53:06]
Jenna Kutcher
Another episode of the Gold Digger podcast. I hope today's episode fueled you with inspiration, gave you information that you can turn into action, and realigned you with your true north in life and business. If you've enjoyed today's episode, head over to golddiggerpodcast.com for today's show. Notes, discount codes for our sponsors, freebies to fuel your results, and so much more. And if you haven't yet, make sure you're subscribed so that you never miss a future show. We'll see you next time.
- [53:34]
Unknown Speaker
Gold Diggers.