← The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
903: Email Marketing 101: How to Grow Your List, Nurture With Ease, and Sell Without Feeling Salesy
00:54:17
With Andria Astner and Jenna Kutcher
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- [00:02]
Jenna Kutcher
If email marketing feels confusing, overwhelming, or like something you should be doing but you don't really know how, well, you're not alone. In this coaching session, we'll break it all down. How to start, how to send, and how to actually make it fun. I'm Jenna Kutcher, your host of the Gold Digger podcast. I escaped the corporate world at the age of 23 with nothing more than a $300 camera from Craigslist and a dream. Now I'm running a seven figure online business that feels even better than it looks. All from my house in small Minnesota. With my family here, we value time as our currency. We mix the woo and the work, and we are in the pursuit of building businesses that give us the freedom to live lives that we love. I've always loved turning big goals into reality, and I'm here to help you do the same. This isn't just a peek behind the curtain. Come along with me and my guests as we tear the whole curtain down. Every week we tackle practical no fluff marketing strategies and host honest discussions on what works and and what doesn't. Join me and my expert guests for actionable insights to help you grow your dream business with confidence. Pull up a seat and get ready to be challenged, inspired and empowered. This is the Goal Digger podcast. Have you ever sent out an email and wondered, is anyone actually reading this? Or worse, am I just sending helpful tips into the void without ever making a sale? Well, if email marketing feels like a mystery to you, today's coaching session is about to lift the fog. Andrea Asner, also known as the Productivity Witch, is a coach who helps overwhelmed ADHD solopreneurs find flow and structure in their business in a way that actually works with their unique brain and not against it. Through her human design, productivity readings and dreamy digital notion workspaces, Andrea is all about making productivity feel intuitive and aesthetic. Today we're flipping the script and she's the one asking me the questions. In our coaching session, we're digging into her biggest challenges around email marketing and list building, including including how to attract the right people, create a newsletter that actually converts without it being spammy, and what metrics are really worth tracking when you're building a business with intention. If you've ever felt confused about what to say in your emails, how to balance value with sales, or how to grow an email list that actually leads to paying clients, this episode is for you. And hey, if you want even more help with email list building, head to list buildchallenge.com and sign up for My free email mini course that will walk you through how to start, serve and scale your email list. Wait, by this time next year you could have an email list that's driving sales, creating freedom, and supporting your big dreams. Sign up for my free mini course@list buildchallenge.com or you can find the link in the show notes. Andrea welcome to the Gold Digger podcast. I am so excited for today's coaching session. I am joined with Andrea, who is an amazing listener of the podcast. And before we dive in, Andrea, I want you to tell us a little bit about you and your business and what your offer is.
- [03:07]
Andrea Asner
Thank you so much for having me. Right, so where this whole thing started is basically the pandemic. You know, after burning out of my consulting job, starting a coaching business, I was doing all the courses, join the business programs, and so forth. And two years in, I was still basically nowhere. Like, I had worked with three paid clients and had made under $2,000, which didn't even cover, you know, the course expenses and stuff. And so I was at a point where it was either moving on to something else or giving things one last shot. And so that is what I went for because at that point I was super overwhelmed with all the things a business entails. The coaching thing was fine, but the business side is where I struggled because I had to do's all over the place. I had all those notes, ideas, and worksheets and so forth. I was super scattered. I was procrastinating a lot. Then sometimes I would overwork and burn out. And so when I decided to give things one last shot is when I kind of burned it all to the ground and decided to do things my way in a way that works for my brain. And you know what every business coach would tell you. And then things magically changed. Like suddenly I redid all my branding. Suddenly the website was up, I had an offer, I was testing it on clients, actually signed a client, and so forth. And what led to that change, ironically, is what became what I do now. And that is creating custom digital workspaces that work for every person's unique brain and energy. And that thankfully has not just worked for me, but it also turns out to work amazing for clients. So that has been super fun to work on the past two years or so. But where I struggle and what brings me here today is the marketing aspect of it. Because in my mind, having a business meant I have to be on Instagram every single day dancing for the algorithm, which is not my thing. And yeah, that is when I Or a friend referred me to one of your email marketing podcasts and that kind of nudged me in that direction and that is sort of where I'm at. I have started email marketing. I have a bit of a list that's growing quite well. I recently set up Automations and so forth, but I'm still really new to it. I have a lot of questions. I don't know if I'm doing things right. And yeah, that is what I hope we'll cover today.
- [05:45]
Jenna Kutcher
Oh my gosh. Okay, first off, when you were describing what you do, I'm like, I can think of so many people who need that, myself included. I like flashback Andrea to like six years ago when I had had my first daughter, I had no systems. I had no visual way of like seeing what needed to done. No visual, like project management. And so I just think it's amazing what you're doing and I know there's so many people who need it. So you prepared some amazing questions. We're going to kind of hone in on the email marketing side of things. So kick off with your first question and then I'll take it from there.
- [06:20]
Andrea Asner
Okay, first question is basically how to ensure that people that subscribe are my ideal audience.
- [06:27]
Jenna Kutcher
Okay.
- [06:27]
Andrea Asner
Maybe a bit of context on that. The way it's currently set up, there's two free things that enables people to find me. One is a free human design chart generator, which I don't have an email field for because I find it very annoying when people try to force you into just to get your chart. But also because not everyone who wants to look up their design is my ideal client. So it's more meant to be just a way to drive traffic to my website and then if they're my ideal client, hopefully getting on the list, but in a different way. This different way being a custom human design report that finds your ideal workspace based on your chart. Because no matter how cute your desk setup is, if you don't have your right environment, all these other productivity techniques and tools and so forth aren't going to work very well. So that is how they get onto the list. But I feel like even then it might still not be, you know, the ideal, ideal client. If that makes sense.
- [07:33]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah. Okay, so first off, are you a manifesting generator?
- [07:37]
Andrea Asner
I'm a generator.
- [07:38]
Jenna Kutcher
You're a generator. Okay, just checking. Okay, so here's what I'll say. What is so interesting to me, especially with the context. We often assume that asking somebody for their email is annoying. And it's not. If you're actually providing something that they value. Right? Because email marketing is really just reciprocity and action. So you're giving them something of value, something that they see valuable enough to exchange access to their inbox. Now, not every single person that opts into your email list is going to be your dream ideal client. But chances are, if you are creating a lead magnet that is in alignment with what your ideal client wants, needs and desires, then you are going to funnel people in. So here's what I'll say. My first challenge would be, if anything, put on an optional email collection. It doesn't have to be required, but an optional opt in for the human design charts so people could learn more about their design type. Right? So you don't even have to make it where they have to put their email in to get the chart. You could say you're one step away from getting your chart. If you want to hear from me, put in your email. If not, that's okay. So you can make an optional, right? Because if you are assuming that people are going to go from a chart and then they're going to go to your website and then somehow on their website they're going to figure out a different way to opt in, you are giving people far too much credit and you're wasting their time. And so I would do an optional opt in if you feel strongly against it. I would really actually require an opt in. And again, it doesn't mean that you have to work with every single person who does this, but you then with your emails can take people down the path to figure out and help them establish am I the right fit to work with Andrea or not. Right? It doesn't have to be you saying you're not the right fit. You can help your email subscribers self qualify themselves to know if they're ready to take the next step with you. The second thing I'll say is if you have so much hesitancy around your opt ins not speaking to your ideal client, then I would say that you're using the wrong opt ins. If your opt ins feel too general, that you're worried that your subscribers aren't going to be the right type of people that you want for your clients, then what I would challenge you to do is to consider what can you create that will be exactly for the dream person you want to work for, Right? So if you know with specificity, okay, this is the type of person that needs me the most. Maybe you make some sort of freebie that's like this is for the manifesting Generators who can't finish a project right. Or something like that where it's like, okay, that person already has an awareness around human design. They're very self aware of what that design might lead to and they need assistance in helping, you know, complete the cycle of something that they're working on, whatever that might be. That's just an example. And so if you're feeling like it's too broad, then I would say tighten it in and create opt ins that are very hyper specific. Now you might get less subscribers, but I will challenge that and say that I would rather have less subscribers who are more valuable to me and my business than more subscribers who aren't really a good fit for my offer. Right. And so I often think of like your opt ins are kind of like the bouncer at the door. So if you can make your freebie super specific to who it is that you want to serve, then you will start to attract your dream clients. If it's too broad based, people aren't necessarily going to convert or they'll convert and then they'll just fall off the list. Right. And so you want to just make sure that any messaging you have in your opt ins, in your lead magnets is so hyper specific to exactly who you want to serve. Because it sounds like you have clarity on who it is that you want to work with. And I think a lot of people listening, they're like, I wish I had that clarity. Like I will take any email subscriber out there, give them to me. And so you have a lot of clarity. And so that's where I would say, I mean even go into chat GPT and be like, this is exactly who I want to work with. What sort of things are they searching for in the dead of night? Right. Or what Google searches do they have? Or what questions are keeping them up or what types of things do they need to support them? What do you think about that?
- [11:54]
Andrea Asner
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So what I've done so far to kind of have one lead into the other is that once someone gets their free chart, they see their chart on the screen and they can download it. But then also on under it there's a big banner saying Free guide. And then it says, are you a solopreneur struggling with overwhelmed procrastination and adhd? And then it goes into it because like I guess anyone would want to know what their ideal workspace is. But then I want to target it at those specific people.
- [12:29]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [12:29]
Andrea Asner
Would you say that is a good alternative or I Think that's good?
- [12:35]
Jenna Kutcher
I definitely think that's good. I am more of the vein of like, get them into your ecosystem and help them see what it is that they need. And so I don't necessarily filter at the top of the funnel. Like, I'm not going to make things so hyper specific that it's super small. I'm more comfortable with. I'm going to like funnel people down. Right. So let's just say a hundred people are on your list and then with each email I'm helping them self qualify. Is this the right fit? And, and I think for me personally, it helps sales not feel slimy because it's truly in service for the right people. They know like, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I need. And the people who don't need it, they're not unsubscribing because they're still getting served right. And so you kind of got to look at it as like, do you want it to be a funnel? Like I'm picturing a funnel when I used to bake with my mom where the top is wide and it narrows down. Or you could flip it and have it be really hyper specific right from the top and just work with less, but go deeper. And so that's a game that I think a lot of entrepreneurs are working with right now is do I want a high volume, maybe a lower priced offer where I'm working with a lot of people but it's not super deep, or do I want to go deep with fewer people? And that's just different businesses and different model types. And what I will say is with the rise of AI and things that are coming, you know, so quickly, the Internet is changing so fast. I will say that I think that the future is headed towards more smaller volume, deeper work. Right. Like people want the hand holding, the accountability, the actual impact, and they want to implement what it is that you're giving them. So that's like my prediction if I had a crystal ball. And so it sounds like you're really clear on that. And so maybe your journey is to do a smaller volume but go deeper with those people. And I think that would be super awesome too.
- [14:30]
Andrea Asner
Okay, sounds good.
- [14:33]
Jenna Kutcher
We'll jump right back into this coaching session with Andrea in just a moment. But first, thank you to our sponsors for making this episode possible. While you're listening, take a moment to ask yourself, are you attracting the right people into your world or just everyone? After this, we're diving into how to balance, providing value, increasing brand awareness, and how to use your email list to sell without feeling sleazy. We'll be back in just a minute. You ever get served an ad and think how the heck did this end up in my feed? Like the other day I got one for a luxury penthouse concierge in Manhattan. Guys, I live in small town Minnesota. Our version of LA is a teen in Crocs handing you your iced coffee at the drive through. Unless that penthouse includes mosquito spray and a Tater Tot hot dish, I'm out. But here's the thing. It's not just funny. It's frustrating. Not only as a consumer, but for the business. Wasting ad dollars on the totally wrong audience. That's why when it comes to reaching the right professionals, the olution is clear. LinkedIn Ads with over a billion users on LinkedIn today, your message stands the best chance of reaching the people who actually matter. And that's where it stands apart from the other ad buys. LinkedIn lets you target by job title, industry, company role, seniority, skills, even company revenue. Basically, all the professionals you need to reach are right there in one place. So stop wasting your precious budget on the wrong audience and start connecting with the right people. Only on LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign, so you can try it yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com goal that's LinkedIn.com goal. Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. This message is sponsored by Greenlight. I grew up hauling a cooler down our Minnesota dirt road to sell lukewarm lemonade for 50 cents a cup. I didn't know it then, but that was the start of my entrepreneurial journey. Now I've got two little girls asking questions about money and I want their learning to feel fun. So when they asked to do their own lemonade stand, I went all in. Logo check. Compostable cups? You bet. And that's when I realized we could use a little help making money lessons. Simple. That's why we use Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app that helps kids learn how to save, spend wisely, and even invest together as a family. We love the Chores feature where you can assign tasks like clean the junk drawer or pick toys to donate and reward them with an allowance. Everything is tracked so you can watch them grow their money smarts in real time. Greenlight is the easy, convenient way for parents to raise financially smart kids and for families to navigate life together. Maybe that's why millions of parents trust and kids love learning about money. On Greenlight, the number one family Finance and safety app. Don't wait to teach your kids real world money skills. Start your risk free greenlight trial today@greenlight.com godigger that's greenlight.com golddigger to get started. Greenlight.com golddigger my next question is how.
- [17:31]
Andrea Asner
To balance providing value but also brand and offer awareness, but then also sales without being one of those super salesy annoying newsletters that just constantly tries to sell to you in every email twice a week type of thing.
- [17:45]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes, yes. Okay, I love this. So question. Value, brand awareness and selling, right? So it's like, how do we find this like rhythm? And it's actually easier than you think. So I think the reason why people have a lot of fear around email marketing is it might have been something that they started and they forgot to nurture. Right? And the only time they remember their email list is when they have something to sell. I think we've all been on email lists like that where you're like, I have not heard from this person in six months and all of a sudden I'm getting sold to again. Right? And I think that's where that like preconceived notion is, is that we've likely been recipients of something of the sort where we're like, wait, what's going on with this person? How have they been like, what's happening? And all of a sudden you're just getting hit with like sales emails again and you're like, I don't even know what you're talking about. And so I have found that if you can have almost like three email energies which you've kind of already identified, it's so helpful. So energy number one is nurturing. And to me, nurturing is like emails with zero links in them, right? There is zero ulterior motive. It is straight up connection. It can be storytelling, it can be a quick tip, like the value is in the email. You do not need to click out of the email to experience anything. These are like my favorite emails to send. Because lately I've been having so much fun writing emails where it's like, like a story. And then it leads into like a lesson I learned. And then it leads into like, here's a tip of how you can apply this. And it's like, again, there's no ulterior motive. I'm not sending you anywhere out of the email. So that's nurture. The second type of email is invite. And this is the one where I think brand awareness would really come into play here where you're Inviting them to take the next step. And it doesn't have to be a paid step, right? It could be to listen to this podcast episode or to check out a blog post that you did, or you read this article and this was amazing, or this is a book that you've been listening to and here's your takeaway on it. So the invitation is really inviting people kind of into your ecosystem, whether it's your own content or someone else's content that really resonated with you. And I love these sort of emails just because, again, it's like you're adding value. You're not cluttering up an inbox. You're inviting someone into your world in a way that will add value to theirs without asking for a penny. So for an example, we sent out an email last week and it was like a podcast roundup where it was just like, in case you've missed these episodes, here are the last five episodes. And I did, like, fun, little short descriptions that made people curious about, like, well, what was that episode? Or, oh, my gosh, I was busy with holidays. Like, what did we miss? And so that's like a fun invite where it's like, come into my world. Whether it's my own stuff or someone else's. The last one is conversion, right? And that's sales. That's where we really want to focus. So nurture, invite, convert. When you create this natural rhythm, you can really start to figure out, how am I going to show up and serve? How am I inviting people into my life or my ecosystem? And then how am I actually moving them closer to making a decision? So much time, people, when they think of conversion, they're so focused on the sale. And what I truly want is somebody to make a decision, right? All I want is decisiveness. I don't want somebody to feel guilt or shame for saying no to an offer that's not the right fit or the right timing for them or the right price point for them. But I want them to be very clear, is this the right thing, the right time, the right person, the right offer for me, yes or no, how can I help somebody make a decision that they feel confident in today? And that's how I look at sales emails. It's not this, like, crazy urgency. You're never going to be successful if you don't say yes today. Like, those don't feel good to send and they don't feel good to receive. And so it's more. So how can I help somebody make a decision today? And so when you have these three different energies, and you're planning out your rhythm. If you're emailing once a week, you can basically just cycle through nurture, invite, convert, nurture, invite, convert. And you can do that over and over and over again. Now, if you send a higher volume of emails, that gives you more space for the nurture and the invite areas. And so, like, for our business, we really look at like 70, 30 in terms of serving versus selling. Like, I am not selling in every single email. The majority of my emails are all about nurturing and connecting and inviting. And so based off of the volume that you want to send, I always tell people to start small and work bigger. Once you've kind of built up a system around it and you feel like you have enough value to add, but when you kind of get into that rhythm, it really feels good. As a subscriber, it keeps you in the loop. It keeps you awake to the different offers that are available to you. And it also just keeps you in that person's world. And so that's kind of how we look at things. And I feel like it's a really great way again, to bring the value, to raise the brand awareness, and then eventually to convert into sales. Do you have any questions about that?
- [22:40]
Andrea Asner
So, for example, if I were to do an email about a reading I've had with someone and, like, extracting some lessons and examples.
- [22:49]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes.
- [22:50]
Andrea Asner
That would. Would that be.
- [22:52]
Jenna Kutcher
Would be amazing by it.
- [22:53]
Andrea Asner
Right? Because then at the end.
- [22:55]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah, yeah, that would be amazing. So when you teach or when you share in that way, you want to teach with your offer in mind. Right. So you know that other people might want this offer in this experience. And so you don't want it to just be like, here I am sharing tips. You are literally seeding demand for what it is that you're selling. Right. You're planting the seed of, like, this person had this experience. This is what their takeaways were. Imagine what this could feel like. Oh, my gosh. This isn't just reserved for this person. This could be for you too. Here's how this could look for you. Here are the bullets that this person was feeling and help that reader see themselves if it is similar to their situation or help them see that, like, oh, that's not really my struggle. This is interesting, but I'm not offended by it. Right. So again, it's like you're. You're not just, like, sharing general tips. You want to make sure that when you are teaching, you're teaching with whatever it is that your offer is in mind. So naturally the teaching point should really answer the questions of like, what is it? And why is it important? And then the how is going to be the offer. Right. How would they actually learn this about themselves? By taking advantage of your offer. And so that always really helps my brain separate because so often I want to go into like the tactical here's step by step processes. Like this is not the time nor place for that. And so when you focus on the what and the why, helping people understand those two things, if they buy into those two things and they really understand them, then the how is the next logical step. And you might be a mentor or person in that how.
- [24:30]
Andrea Asner
Okay, I love that. That makes it a lot clearer.
- [24:33]
Jenna Kutcher
Good. Awesome. Okay, next question.
- [24:37]
Andrea Asner
Yeah, that brings me into the next one as well actually, because what I do is quite weird. My ideal client doesn't know it exists, they're not looking for it. And so there's a lot of like awareness that needs to happen. So like, I don't know, things like you're not lazy, you don't need more discipline, or ADHD is not going to ruin your business. And like all these things. Yeah, our emails, I want, you know, everyone to kind of go through.
- [25:00]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [25:00]
Andrea Asner
But at the same time I don't want to have a like welcome sequence that's like 20 emails long. Sending four emails a week. Yeah, I try to do one per week.
- [25:09]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [25:09]
Andrea Asner
So what I've finally managed to set up in an automation is sort of what I call like an extended brand sequence with those brand awareness type emails that will just be sent every fourth week to a new subscriber. So it's like a very slow dripping kind of welcome sequence, if that makes sense.
- [25:29]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [25:30]
Andrea Asner
But now that the tech is in place, I'm like blanking at what to put in there, how to organize it, what order to do things in. Like, how do you approach. I guess a welcome sequence would be.
- [25:42]
Jenna Kutcher
Oh my gosh, this is so fresh. Because guess what, I literally just rewrote ours from scratch the other day. So you're catching me at the perfect time. I nerd out over this stuff. I love this stuff. So here's kind of how we did our welcome sequence. And you can take or toss any of this based on if it works for you and what you're thinking and. Or if it works for like the volume that you want to send. Right. Because there are a couple different approaches. So we ended up doing a six email email sequence and we're dripping it out over 10 to 12 days based on if they land on a weekend kind of vibes because we don't love to send weekend emails. And So I did six emails and spaced out over 10 to 12 days. And I am not selling anything in the whole thing, right? I am literally like there are very few links and the only links are going to free information like check out the podcast, like that kind of energy. And so for the welcome sequence when I was really looking at it, I wanted them to know who I am. I wanted them to know that like who I can help kind of so that again they can self start to discover like is this going to be a right fit for me? I want them to know what resources are available for them. So like the podcast and I referenced just kind of here is like my mission statement, right? Like I want for you to be able to build a business that doesn't take over your life. I want for you to learn strategies that give you your time back. Like that is really like the ethos of it. And one thing that's interesting is, is I think one mistake a lot of people make in their welcome sequence is they go too hard, too fast and they end up almost branching people off into like different offers and different segments and different sequences before they could ever finish the welcome sequence. And to me when we were building it this time, I was handwriting every single email and I'm like, I want this to feel like a beautiful story, something fun to read, something interesting. And I also want them to complete it. I don't want them to to get lost or get lost in an offer or a funnel or anything along the way. I just want them to get from email 1 to email 6 and enjoy the ride. And so that's kind of what I did for ours. And again there's not like links or call to actions or selling at all. It's more so again brand awareness, connecting with me as a creator. What do I stand for? How can I help them kind of vibes. So for you, what you're talking about, I like this idea of having just some sort of elongated sequence that kind of teaches and seeds throughout the weeks, right. I wouldn't necessarily call what you were describing a welcome sequence. To me a welcome sequence is like front end. It could be like three emails total where it's just like as soon as somebody subscribes, here are these three things they need to know before they go any further. But what I love about what you were talking about is when you can sit down and thoughtfully create content and you know that it can be serving people While you sleep, whenever they opt in. Right. And that every week they're going to get something. So that even on the weeks where life gets chaotic and busy, or you're planning for a launch, or you're working one on one with clients and you don't have time to send an email, they're still hearing from you. Right. And so what you're building is you're building security and you're building something that is still going to be serving for you. So I would look at that more as like a nurture sequence. And I love it. I think it's super smart. I think it's really, really thoughtful. And one of the things that people don't leverage enough, that you are savvy enough to do because you did this is a lot of times people write this epic email and it's a one and done, right. They send it out to their list. If somebody opts in the next day, they're never going to see that awesome email. They're never going to get that. And so the way that you're doing it is you're sitting down and writing something thoughtfully and you're like, wow, this can actually work for somebody a month from now or even a year from now. I'm going to make sure that this is a part of the sequence. So I am a huge fan of that. Especially if you are somebody who is prone to get really excited about something and then kind of fall off the bandwagon because you get really excited about something else, which is, I'm sure, is a lot of the clients that you work with as well. And so having something set up where you're like, regardless of if I sit down and type up an email today, something is going to be sent out this week for 10 weeks or whatever it is. That feels good because it builds in that security and it keeps serving long after you hit send.
- [30:09]
Andrea Asner
Okay, wait, so then are you saying this sequence should be. Because, like the way I envision it in my mind is like imagine a calendar. You have like the four weeks. Ish. So every fourth week it sends out an email from this sequence. And then the remaining ones, like the remaining three weeks, I would just send the regular newsletter.
- [30:31]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes, I love that is fine. That's totally fine. And I would just call that a nurture sequence. Yeah, welcome sequence is like front end. You're walking into the party, you're getting to know. This would just be set up more as just like a nurture sequence that's just nurturing your subscribers every month. However, you're Setting it up. And so again, if you write an email and it does really well or it performs really well, look at ways that you can repurpose that or pop that into some sort of sequence or funnel so that that doesn't go to waste. Right. So that it doesn't just live and die with that one send. And so you're already kind of doing that with that rhythm, and you're still going to be showing up in inboxes every fourth week. Right. And so just look at that as a nurture sequence. And I would just challenge you, like, keep building that thing out with timeless resources that can just keep serving and keep going. So you could build that thing out pretty well, which would be awesome.
- [31:28]
Andrea Asner
Okay. When you put it that way, my mind goes to. Then I maybe should do two of those, say, week two and week four.
- [31:34]
Jenna Kutcher
Sure.
- [31:34]
Andrea Asner
One being more the brand awareness, like, you mentioned, you know, the backstory or, like, offers that type of stuff. And then the other maybe the cool, fun productivity tips that are kind of, like, timeless.
- [31:48]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes.
- [31:48]
Andrea Asner
So then two of my monthly emails.
- [31:50]
Jenna Kutcher
Are taken care of.
- [31:51]
Andrea Asner
Done. Yes. And I just did two months.
- [31:54]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes.
- [31:54]
Andrea Asner
Okay.
- [31:54]
Jenna Kutcher
I mean, I love that. I think that could be great. And the one thing I'll challenge is just make sure that when you do that, just make sure it's super evergreen. Right. So, like, it's not saying, like, it's summer in Minnesota and then they're going to get it in December and they're like, wait a minute. So all you have to do is really just run it through a filter of, like, is this truly going to be valuable six months from now? And if the answer is yes, absolutely. Find ways to repurpose and reuse it. I love it. I think it's great. And I think, too, it helps people sit down and write emails that you don't just feel like, I'm just doing this one email, I'm going to send it tomorrow, and then next week I got to do the same thing again. It kind of changes the energy around it. If you're sitting down and you're really meaningfully writing something and you're like, this is going to work tomorrow and it's going to work a month from now and a month after that and a month after that. It changes the energy around email marketing and it makes it fun and it helps you to look at too, like, what were your top performers? And can I repurpose them in a new way so that I can send them out again? Because they were great and everyone should see this, you know, yeah. Love it.
- [33:01]
Andrea Asner
And it gives me such peace of mind to think about even just now seeing the welcome sequence stuff in place and seeing the numbers going through without me touching it thing.
- [33:09]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes. Oh my gosh girl, you're speaking my language. It is like the sexiest thing to me to know that people are getting served and I didn't do a thing right. Like it feels good. It takes that like weight off of your chest that many entrepreneurs feel. I love it.
- [33:24]
Andrea Asner
Yeah. So efficient.
- [33:26]
Jenna Kutcher
Hey, before we thank our sponsors for supporting the show, I just want to encourage you that if this episode is helping you reimagine your email strategy, why not pass it along? Text it to a friend who's starting their own business or struggling with marketing overwhelm and because coming up, I'm going to share what metrics actually matter and the most common mistakes I see beginners make when it comes to their email marketing strategy. I wear a lot of hats in my day to day life. Mom, wife, entrepreneur, friend, sister. The list goes on. So I'm always looking for ways to make things simpler and more efficient. And I bet you are too. If you've ever breezed through checkout with just a click, you've likely used that little purple shop pay button. It's fast, it's secure, and it's super convenient. But here's what you might not know. That button means the store is powered by Shopify. And Shopify doesn't just make shopping easier, it makes starting and running a business easier too. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. You get stunning, ready to go templates to express your brand style and built in marketing and email tools to spread your brand's word. Plus, with Shopify, you can manage your business in one place. And yes, that iconic purple shop pay button. It's used by millions. And it's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. Your customers already love it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com golddigger go to shopify.com golddigger shopify.com gold digger one of Quinn's favorite games is asking me to be an airplane and fly her around the house. And every time she picks a new destination, places like Arizona, Nashville, even Florida, I started to notice that the places she chooses, they're all Spots we've traveled to as a family. Travel is something we absolutely love. And whenever we travel, we opt to book an Airbnb. It gives us space to be a family. Like when we stayed in Arizona and had a pool, a putting green, and separate bedrooms for the girls. Hello, better sleep. It was the perfect place to make memories that have stuck with all of us. That trip reminds me how thoughtful hosting can be and how much it can shape someone's experience. But I also know how much work goes into creating that kind of state. That's why I love that Airbnb now has a co host network you can team up with someone local who takes care of all the details, guest communication, check ins, even setup so that your space still shines even when you're not the one managing it. If you've been dreaming about hosting but wondering how you'd actually pull it off, this is your sign. Find a co host@airbnb.com host similar to.
- [36:12]
Andrea Asner
That when it comes to metrics, I like on kit on the main dashboard, one of the three key things I chose you as click rate. And it stresses me out, like, do I really need to care about it? Because it's not like I'm trying to sell in every email. So. So why would there be a click? But then it's like front and center.
- [36:29]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [36:29]
Andrea Asner
So I'm wondering what do I look at and how do I determine what was a good email basically and what wasn't?
- [36:36]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes. Okay. I love this. So metrics are so funny and they can totally mess with our heads. Right. It's like we're stepping off of the algorithm and vanity metrics on one platform and then somehow they get shoved in your face on the next one. Right. You're trying to get away from that. So one of the things that I think is so helpful when it comes to email marketing is pick one metric to care about for each email that you send. Okay. So one of the metrics could be your open rate. So like, how effective was my subject line? I love open rates because to me, if I'm working on the inside of the email and people are not actually opening it, then I just wasted my time. I want to spend as much time on that subject line as I am on the inside content of the email. Because open rate, so if you're sending out an email and there are no links in it, like I said, it's just straight serving. It's storytelling, it's connecting. Open rate, that's the metric you want to look at. Okay. If it is an Email, maybe where we were talking about like an invite, right? Where it's not necessarily a hard sell. You're inviting someone to click to listen to a podcast or to check out a book that just helps you see if you have message clarity. So click right there. Just make sure that what you are inviting them into is clear and aligned. And so click right. There isn't like a slap on the wrist of like, yes, you did it or you didn't. It's just data that helps you see, is my message clear? Is it resonating? Is it connecting? Is it something that people find valuable? Because I find it valuable. Again, so that just helps you kind of see, like, how is my message clarity. The last thing I will say that isn't measured in metrics, but I think it should be is how many people are replying to my emails or how many people are converting. And I think that this just shows us resonance, right? Like this is resonating with the right people. So if you are sending out an email that isn't about sales and you invite in replies, like, tell me what your number one struggle is, tell me what hilarious thing is on your desktop right now and you don't know why it's there, right? Like inviting that in, it's resonating with people, they feel comfortable, they're starting the conversation. If it's conversion, again, that just shows that the offer is resonating. So I would just say for every email you send, pick one main metric that you're going to look at and let the rest fall away. Like, information is powerful, data is awesome, but a lot of times data is interesting, it's not useful, right? It's interesting to know what your click through rate is, but if you don't know how to impact it, it's not actually useful. Useful, right? Or if you don't need to impact it because it's not tied to direct results, it's not useful. So I would just say you don't have to track everything every time. Pick one point and look at that. So like for us, one habit that we've gotten into is at the end of every month we look at all the emails we sent out and we just do an analysis. Like, which emails had the best open rates? Let's look at those subject lines. What was interesting about their subject lines? Was there any trends in those subject lines? Which emails did have high click rates? Was it a free offer or paid offer? And we just try to look at the whole ecosystem without judgment, just saying, like, what are the numbers telling us? That we can use as we continue writing ahead. And one thing that I think is interesting, and it kind of makes me laugh because I feel like this is also in relationships too, is a lot of times people like to keep score, right? Like, me and my husband were so bad at this. Today I woke up and worked out, and then I was like, okay, I get my workout time this morning. You get it later. We keep score sometimes. But when it comes to, like, data in a dashboard, it's not a scoreboard, it's a classroom. And that distinction is so huge because when you look at it not as, like, I am a success or I am a failure, when you look at it more of, like, wow, this is interesting. This is where I'm learning. This is how I'm getting better. It shifts the energy, right? I think so many entrepreneurs are afraid to experiment. We're looking at everything as a win or a loss, and we're not actually seeing opportunity to, like, try things and test things and experiment more. So just know that, like, every single email you send is kind of an experiment, and that's fun. And that helps you really just look with an open mind at the data that you're getting. And again, not be hard on yourself if something didn't perform the way you wanted it to. Or really go back to the drawing board and be like, I think this should have done better. What did we miss? Or, how could we do this? Sometimes I get dead set. Like, where I'm like, this email's gonna crush it. And then it doesn't. And I'm like, what did we miss here? Like, where was I off? Where was I not clear? Like, what was it? And for me, that's fun. Like, I like to see that. So just look at that. And then the last thing I'll say, too, is, if you're only celebrating sales, you're missing this opportunity to really look at, like, the signals. Like, is your email list engaged? Like, are they opening? Are they excited to open? Are they replying? These are all signals that, like, your message and your like, offer is resonating. And to me, sometimes people don't realize, like, businesses often, especially when I think of yours, where people have to first grow their awareness in the issue, then they have to learn about, like, okay, this is an actual problem and identify it. Then they need to start exploring solutions. You might have a longer tail conversion, right? Where somebody might not convert on day three like other marketers. And so when you can see the signals and say, wow, this is still resonating, this person has Been on my email list for six months and they open every email. That's a huge signal that what you're doing is working and it will pay off. And so just kind of lose the desire to pull some of our tendencies from other platforms of like, this one flopped, this one did great. And just really open your eyes and be like, this is the classroom and I am a student of it and I'm here to learn.
- [42:15]
Andrea Asner
Okay. Yeah, that makes sense because yeah, my favorite thing is also when someone replies, I was like, oh, I did this. Thank you. It's like my very metric.
- [42:23]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes. And maybe just make a separate dashboard for you to track that so that like, you know, the email marketing softwares aren't necessarily tracking replies and conversations. And we have a thing on my team where Stephanie on my team will drop in email replies into our slack so we can see what people are saying and so I can respond to them personally. And it's like the best. Right. It's just so great. So I love that.
- [42:47]
Andrea Asner
One question that comes to mind when you talk about open rates.
- [42:50]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [42:50]
Andrea Asner
Is I cannot set up a double opt in simply because of the report software. Like it creates a custom link per person and kit only allows like one link for the opt in.
- [43:01]
Jenna Kutcher
Right. Yep.
- [43:02]
Andrea Asner
So my open rate for the freebie Delivery is around 50% because they also can just download it on this site so there's no need to open it.
- [43:11]
Jenna Kutcher
Okay.
- [43:11]
Andrea Asner
But then what I'm wondering is, should I clean out my list regularly depending on whether someone never opens any emails? Like, how do you approach that?
- [43:23]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah, so we call it list scrubbing. I'm sure there's probably like a more technical term and what we do is like we'll clean off our list. Like if somebody hasn't engaged with an email and it's like, I think we usually do 90 days, we'll send them an email of just like, hey, we're going to remove you from this zero. Like zero issues, zero problems. I just want to let you know, if you do want to keep getting my emails, click here. If not, we'll remove you. And like we hope our paths cross again. Like, it's something kind and nice, but it's kind of like I don't want to bother you, so if I'm bothering you, I'm just going to stop. So usually after 90 days, if they haven't opened or engaged with any emails, we'll send out one or two emails just saying, hey, we're going to remove you from the list. But if you want to stay on it just click this button to stay on and then we will clean off our list because again, we want a healthy list. And you're right, it can really skew your metrics as well, is if you're looking at your overall list health and like people are on the list, but they're not even engaged at all from day one. The other thing that's interesting is you also want to make sure that your initial emails aren't hitting spam filters or promotions filters. Because if you enter in in that inbox, it's hard to get into the main inbox. And so having a welcome sequence again, that doesn't have a lot of links, that isn't like filled with sales jargon and things and that invites in replies will help you stay in their main inbox because it shows that you're a safe sender is somebody that they actually want to engage with. And so that is also something to note. So I absolutely recommend cleaning your list. You can do it, you know, 90 days, 120 days, whatever it is, you can set the parameter there. And I would just say before you remove people, send one final email just to those people who haven't engaged and be like, hey, before I remove you, like, I don't want to bother you, just let me know if you still want to get this content. Remind them what type of content you send and who you are again, because if they haven't opened, they probably don't remember and then you can remove them after that. And so I think a healthy list is way better than like a bigger number of disengaged people.
- [45:25]
Andrea Asner
Agreed. Also a question with what I do is it's very visual.
- [45:31]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [45:31]
Andrea Asner
And email is not the most visual, like media or platform. So do you have any tips on how to like showcase that, like, are screenshots a good idea or will those get me into spam? Should I do like links to YouTube videos instead? Yeah, like, I don't know. How would you approach that?
- [45:51]
Jenna Kutcher
I love that. So, yes, your work is visual and I think it helps to see it especially for people that are still building their awareness around it. So I would say you can absolutely use an image. I would use one image, Max. So I would just do one image. I've even been noticing as I've been watching some like, of the big retailers with like massive marketing budgets, instead of sending emails with like a bunch of photos that you could click on, it's like one big photo and then you can click on it. So I would do one. I would do either like a beautiful screenshot or some sort of stuff. Styled preview, where they can actually see what it is. One other thing that we do to, like, add in a little movement is we'll do one image, but it's a gif, so you can see, like, the mouse moving. Since you do, like, awesome templates, you could kind of show the template in use as a gif. And we use a website. It's easy, like the letters E Z gift.com and it can turn, like any video into a GIF that you can use in your email. And then I would just say, like, make sure that your words do the selling and your image is kind of the hook. Right. So when you drop in a photo, don't think, like, a picture is worth a thousand words, while a lot of people will say that it is. Make sure that your visuals are kind of like the curiosity spark, but make sure that the benefits and the explanation are in words. So don't expect somebody to look at it and understand what it is that they're looking at. Make sure that, like, if nobody saw any photo, would this email still make sense? Right. And that's like a good test to kind of run it through. And then one other thing you can do too is like, let's say you have like, your template shop. You can do one screenshot where you link to, like, the hub or like your sales page where there's different templates that people can choose from, where it's almost like a choose your own adventure. So you could do one screenshot that shows off different templates and then they could click over to see the rest. So those are kind of the things I would do. We don't use a. A ton of graphics in our emails. We've kind of gone back to old school where there's not even, like, buttons in them. It's more like plain text, really clean. But then once or twice a month, we'll toss in a fun GIF or fun image just to, like, spice things up or to help people kind of see what it is we're talking about. So I love that.
- [48:01]
Andrea Asner
Okay. I wish I did templates, but I can do screenshots of, like, custom workspaces for sure. Or I can just turn them into gifts. That's a good one.
- [48:10]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes.
- [48:11]
Andrea Asner
Because then it doesn't count as a video, right?
- [48:13]
Jenna Kutcher
Yep. Nope. It doesn't count as a video. Yeah.
- [48:16]
Andrea Asner
Also, since I joined the Pinterest lab, I'm going to be starting Pinterest.
- [48:21]
Jenna Kutcher
Yeah.
- [48:21]
Andrea Asner
And the place that will lead to is going to be a blog. And I'm wondering how to integrate the blog into email because, like, I guess it makes sense for it to like, if I do a monthly blog, it to appear in like one of the monthly emails. Like four emails a month.
- [48:39]
Jenna Kutcher
Yep.
- [48:39]
Andrea Asner
But then how would you recommend doing that? Would you just copy paste the blog? Would you just do a teaser? Is there a benefit of linking people from the email back to the website if they're already on the list?
- [48:51]
Jenna Kutcher
Nope. Okay, so here's what I would do. So great. So I have literally. This is wild. I've been blogging for 15 years. I love a blog. I am obsessed with blogging. Okay, so when you incorporate your blog posts into your email, you want the blog to be the bonus, not the main meat. So the issue that a lot of people have is they will literally like copy and paste it over. And there is literally no reason for somebody to click over to their blog. Right. Because they basically just got everything there. So your email, the goal of the email is to sell the click. So how are you going to sell the click to get them to click to the blog? So a lot of times what we'll do is we'll share like one takeaway or one story from the post or we'll share like the behind the scenes. Here's what we didn't say in this blog post, but we wanted to to allow people to go deeper. So you don't want to just say like new blog post up. It's like tell me the story behind the story or give me a reason to want to click over and learn more. And so it's more of like a teaser. And so that makes it really fun. And what I think is the best way to do it is tell a really personal story that you only feel comfortable telling to your email list that wouldn't like live publicly on the blog. That kind of sells the point or sells why that content is interesting, right? Like, how did you come to this conclusion? Or why does this matter? And then I would say just again, as you were just saying, kind of stack it into your rhythm that you're creating with your nurture emails. So the blog is really like the invite run, right? You're not converting, you're not seeing, selling hardcore. You're inviting someone into your ecosystem. And so yes, once a month, if you have a new blog post up, figure out a fun way to sell the click to the blog through your email. And I think that will be so much fun. It's also again, a really great data point to make sure that the people who are on Your list are resonating with the content you're creating elsewhere because it kind of shows that congruence of, like, they might be on the path to purchasing or their awareness around your offer is growing. And so. And so that's a really great way to do that. I love it. I love a good blog.
- [50:53]
Andrea Asner
So then would it make sense to include at least maybe some of the blogs in that extended sequence?
- [51:00]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes, totally. Totally. And when you write those emails for the monthly one, if you write it timeless. Which blogs are timeless? Like, we still have blog posts from like four years ago that get tons of traffic because they're still valuable. Right. And so those could absolutely drop in on that, like, second week, like you talked about. If you make that extra nurture sequence. And let's say you write five different blog posts again, that's five different weeks of content making it all timeless. So it's not, you know, tied to a certain season or a certain stage of life. And that would be epic. I think that would be so smart to do.
- [51:35]
Andrea Asner
You're making email sounds so much easier than I thought it was.
- [51:39]
Jenna Kutcher
I'm so grateful. Oh, my gosh. I think we might have time for one final question. Do you have any fun questions to end this off? We've done a lot of work today. This is awesome. Yeah.
- [51:51]
Andrea Asner
My last question is, are there any common mistakes to avoid that you see beginners making? For example, I know in ConvertKit there's this kit domain verification that sounds kind of scary, but don't need to do it or like any other common mistakes.
- [52:07]
Jenna Kutcher
So what I would say is just common mistakes. So getting super excited and then just falling off the bandwagon. Right. There are so many statistics of people that will, you know, email for three weeks and then they fall off, or start a podcast and do six episodes and then fall off. And so build it in a sustainable and fun way, which you absolutely are doing. Think long term. So don't just think one and done. Think how can I use this email over again? Which is exactly, exactly what you're doing, and invite in replies. Because the more that you hear from actual people, the more that you see that these data points aren't just numbers. They're humans that you are communicating with that you get to really serve and hopefully eventually connect with and invite into your offers. And so making it really a human experience. And the last thing I will say is make it fun to do. Make it fun to write the emails, make it exciting to send. Make them emails that you want to read. If you make it Fun, Fun for you. Then the people that read them on the other side of the screen are also going to enjoy them. And so we have just gone back to basics with email, where, like, I am writing every single email. I'm having so much fun with it. I'm thinking of funny stories and things that I'm not sharing anywhere else and making it just feel like this exclusive club of connection inside of an inbox. And it's just totally changed the energy around email marketing. So start with that energy so that you don't have to go backwards. I think it's going to be so awesome and you're doing such a good job. I'm so excited for you. Thanks.
- [53:37]
Andrea Asner
Also having those two sequences, like long sequences in place.
- [53:41]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes.
- [53:42]
Andrea Asner
It's like it frees up the space to add the fun and creativity without having to be my head of. What is the purpose of this email? Is this like a sales thing, is it not?
- [53:51]
Jenna Kutcher
Yes. I love that. I mean, I was so wild before I had my baby. I made a six month nurture sequence because I was like, I'm going on maternity leave. I don't know when I'm going to be back. I don't know when my brain is going to work again. I want to make sure I'm showing up in inboxes so you can go on with your bad self and make like the coolest nurture sequence ever. That nurture sequence ran for like years and it was awesome and it was so thoughtful and good and so just like, have fun. And you can keep building those out as you keep writing. So every email you write doesn't just have to be go out once. It can become a part of those sequences you're building, which again will give you that longevity and also show you that, like people are getting served while you sleep, which I think is like the ultimate dream. Andrea. Where can everybody connect with you, learn more from you, Check out your work? We're also curious, so tell us all the things.
- [54:41]
Andrea Asner
The best place is my website, since I'm not a big fan of Instagram, which is the productivity which dot com. And that's also where I have the free human design report that tells people how to create and find their ideal, most productive workspace and also to kind of give back to you and your audience. I'm doing a 15% discount on productivity readings with Code Jenna. So if anyone wants to do that, that is the best deal I've offered them at so far.
- [55:12]
Jenna Kutcher
Amazing. Look at you. Can you tell this girl's a student of gold Digger Andrea, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for being vulnerable and showing up and asking amazing questions. I can't wait to see what you do and I'm so excited for everyone who gets your emails. So thank you for being a part of this.
- [55:29]
Andrea Asner
Thank you so much.
- [55:32]
Jenna Kutcher
These coaching sessions are so much fun and I hope that they're super valuable for you as a listener. I have so much fun connecting with Gold Digger listeners just like Andrea. And if you want your chance to to be coached on the Gold Digger podcast, make sure you are part of our Gold Digger Podcast Insiders Facebook group. We have it linked in the show notes and in the show description. Once you are in there you will see where we are calling out to our audience saying who wants to come on this show? I love doing these sessions and I hope to meet you exactly where you're at in your journey. If this episode helped you or you know it could help someone in your life, take a quick second to share it. It would mean the absolute world to the me. And if you want to learn more about how to grow an email list of engaged buyers, make sure you sign up for my free training at List Build Challenge. Com. I am so obsessed with email marketing, as you can tell from today's episode, and I want to help you find the easiest route to success with your email list. Until next time, Goal Diggers. Keep on digging your biggest goals. And thank you so much for listening to this episode of the podcast. Thanks for pulling up a seat for another episode of the Gold Digger Podcast. I hope today's episode fueled you with inspiration, gave you information that you can turn into action, and realigned you with your true north in life and business. If you've enjoyed today's episode, head on over to gold diggerpodcast.com for today's show notes, discount codes for our sponsors, freebies to fuel your results, and so much more. And if you haven't yet, make sure you're subscribed so that you never miss a future show. We'll see you next time. Gold Diggers.