← The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
917: “I Quit Social Media And My Business Grew 165%: Here’s How”
00:56:58
With Kate Kordsmeier and Jenna Kutcher
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- [00:02]
A
Today's episode is sponsored in part by Skims, LinkedIn, Mercury and Greenlight. I've been a Skims fan for years and the Fits Everybody collection is a favorite that I just keep reaching for. Shop the Skims Fits everybody collection@skims.com goaldigger stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one at LinkedIn.com goal Mercury streamlines your banking and finances in one place so you can focus on growing your online business. Visit mercury.com to apply online in 10 minutes. Teach your kids real world money skills with Greenlight. Start your risk free trial today@greenlight.com goaldigger as always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes. Now let's dive on in. Nothing makes me happier than doing work that energizes me, and I've always been committed to that. Not just for myself, but for my entire team. That's why I'm so excited about the Working Genius Model. It's a powerful tool that helps you discover your natural strengths and where you thrive in your work. When you tap into what you're naturally good at, work becomes more rewarding and you get so much more done. Honestly, I wasn't sure what to expect when I took the Working Genius assessment, but it blew me away with how accurate and insightful it was. It affirmed that I am naturally gifted at using my intuition and instincts to evaluate and assess ideas or plans. And it also confirmed my love for self starters and the fact that I can get frustrated if I have to be the main source of motivation for other people to get results. The assessment only takes 10 minutes and it's great for solopreneurs and teams alike. Imagine with me how effortless your teamwork will be if you understand the working geniuses of those that you're working with. Working Genius is different from everything else out there because it's 20% personality and 80% productivity. Simply put, if you want to transform your work life, this is it. Get 20% off the 25 Working Genius Assessment, head to workinggenius.com and enter the promo code Gold Digger at checkout. That's workinggenius.com promo code gold digger Feeling burnt out by the social media hamster wheel? Well, you're not alone. Today's guest, Kate Cordmeier, is here to show us that there's another way to build your business and it doesn't have anything to do with the Instagram algorithm. I'm Jenna Kutcher and I help you trade hustle for purpose and build a business that gives you the life you actually want to live. From a $300 Craigslist camera to a seven figure business I run from home, I've learned that success isn't just about what you do, it's about how you live. Here, you'll get strategies that work, systems that give you your time back, and steps that turn your effort into results. An impact if you're ready for clarity, confidence, and a business that feels as good as it looks, you're in the right place. This is the Gold Digger podcast. What if I told you that you could grow a thriving business without social media? Like actually walk away from the endless scrolling, the constant posting, the algorithm anxiety, and still see traffic, leads and sales flow in every single day? I first discovered today's guest Kate Cordmeier on Amy Porterfield's podcast and it was one of those episodes where I literally paused, rewound and thought, okay, this woman is speaking directly to my soul. What she shared about building a business without social media hit me right into the heart. It inspired me to dive way deeper into her work. I bought her systems, I had my team look into her strategies. It completely kickstarted our own obsession with with getting back into different games that didn't require social media, specifically search engine optimization or SEO. Because let's face it, there has to be a better way than constantly having to dance for the algorithm, right? Kate is a certified life and business coach, the founder of Success with Soul, where she helps entrepreneurs grow soul led sustainable businesses using things like SEO, funnels, automation and feminist business systems, all without social media. She built her first blog to over 250,000 monthly page views and sold it for multiple six figures. And now she runs a six figure business and hasn't posted on social media since 2021. In this episode, we are unpacking why creators are stepping back from social and betting on things like SEO and aeo. We're going to dig into what's really happening with AI and organic traffic, how to future proof your visibility, and what steps you can take today to start showing up sustainably without burning out. If you've ever wondered, is SEO dead? Or can I really grow my business without social? This conversation is for you. And if you're someone who already is intrigued and you want to learn even more about Breaking Free from the social media hamster wheel and learn what we did to help attract our dream clients using Kate strategies, go to jennacutcher.com forward/SEO to take Kate's incredible course called Antisocial SEO. After you finish this course, Kate will have turned you into an SEO powerhouse who is all about attraction, not promotion. I promise you, after this episode, you are going to be running so fast. To jennacacher.com SEO, which will also be linked in the show notes. After hearing her episode over a year ago, I took action immediately because it just resonated so deeply. So you are in for a treat today. Kate Kordsmeier, welcome to the Gold Digger podcast.
- [05:43]
B
Okay, Kate, in your opinion, what's the biggest lie that we've been sold about how to grow a business?
- [05:51]
C
Well, I'm sure it will come as no surprise based on the title of this episode, but I definitely think that the biggest lie is that you have to be on social media in order to have a successful business. It is so not true. I'm definitely living proof. I have dozens of clients who are also living proof. And you don't have to dance on reels to build, you know, a company. You just need a business model, I think an email list and the right people to find you. And there's way better, more effective, more sustainable ways to do that. I think if you love social, it can be the icing. It shouldn't be the cake.
- [06:29]
B
Ooh, okay. This is so good. So I became obsessed with you after hearing you on my dear friend Amy Porterfield's podcast. And I was absolutely just enamored with Kate and her journey and what it is, I think, because deep down in my soul, like, social media feels like a time suck. It feels like a life suck. And oftentimes it just feels like you have to be there. I mean, it just feels like you're stuck at a party and you can't leave. Like, the Uber's not showing up to get you. And when I heard your story, I was just like, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is so good. This is gold. And it's just the flip side of a coin that I think we haven't been presented right. It's like in the buffet of entrepreneurial options. This was not listed on the menu.
- [07:23]
C
Right.
- [07:23]
B
So before we dive in, can you just kind of give us the really quick synopsis of how you got off of social media, why you got off of it, and what's happened since then?
- [07:35]
C
Yes, Well, I got off social media. I'll say. I had a love hate relationship with it as soon as I started using it. Like, maybe the first year that Instagram was out, it was like, oh, fine, cool. You know, and then pretty soon after, I was like, oh, my gosh, this makes me feel horrible about myself. And certainly once I started using it for business and was like, I could spend all of my time here and actually see very little roi. That may be something different for you, because I think you have seen a lot of ROI that might have been shifting. I think I've also seen, like, ads from you saying, like, did you know that only 4% of your, you know, audience is actually seeing your organic posts and stuff? But organic social is. Yes. I love the word life suck. That's a great way to describe it because it does kind of just make everything suck and takes away so much joy. And so I had been feeling that for a long time. I decided to do just, like, social detox for 30 days in 2021. And I really didn't expect it to be anything more than that. I was just like, I got to put this down for a minute and just walk away. I did 30 days, and, like, nothing changed. Like, I still made money, I still had clients. As people still found me, I was so much happier. And so 30 days turned into 60, turned into 600, and now here we are four years later, and I'm like, I'm never going back. Like, it's just so much better on this side of things. And, yeah, I could get into lots of the, like, little details that came into the decision. And. But I think I said this on Amy's episode too, and I'll say it here again, because I think it's worth repeating, which is like, ask yourself, do I enjoy this? Is it working? And is it actually aligned with, like, my values? And I just. After, like, watching the Social Dilemma and seeing a lot of, like, how the sausage was made, basically, of social media, media and algorithm, I was just like, I don't want to be a part of this. So I think if you can answer those three questions, and if your answer is like, I love it, it's working, and, yeah, it's totally aligned, like, great. You do you. I'm all about making your business work for you, but there are other ways if you can't answer yes to all those questions.
- [09:54]
B
Oh, okay. Yes. I love all this. My good friend Aaron Lochner will often say, like, everyone talks about, like, technology is the way of the future. And she's like, but is that the I want? Right?
- [10:07]
C
Yeah. Ooh.
- [10:08]
B
Like, where do we fit into this equation? And I honestly feel like I'm on two Clydesdale horses going in opposite direction. As a Digital marketer. Right. Because there's a part of me that's like, wow, what a gift. Like, it is a gift. We can reach people and we can inspire people. But then sometimes, too, like, we have this practice in our family where we'll take our kids out to dinner and we'll tell our kids, look around and look at who is enjoying themselves in their experience, and look who might look sad or distracted or not paying attention. And we want to teach them to start to acknowledge, like, the role phones play in your life experience and your experiences. And it's really interesting because they start to pick up on it. Right? Like, yeah, those people over there aren't even talking to each other. Or that family looks kind of sad. And it's interesting. I think I. I grapple. I really grapple with it, which is why, like, when I heard you talk, I was like, girl, I got into your course that day. Like. Like, I am the kind of person that when I hear something and it resonates deep in my soul, I take action. And so how does your business run without social media? Like, paint us the picture of, like, what this even looks like and how it could be possible.
- [11:22]
C
Well, I love this question because the first thing I always do is pose this back to you, which is like, tell me all of the ways that you market your business, Jenna. Like, what do you currently do to market your business?
- [11:34]
B
Okay, so we have this podcast. We have paid ads, we have our email list, we have social, we have Pinterest, we have SEO. We now have AI generated search content. I'm sure I'm leaving a few things out. Those would be, like, the manager.
- [11:53]
C
So you're already doing, like, you almost named ten things right there. Right. And so my business looks very similar. I just don't do the social piece of it. Like, all those other strategies you named also work to grow your email list to find people to, you know, to get in front of new audiences.
- [12:12]
B
Yeah.
- [12:12]
C
So it's basically just like, I just do those things and I just don't do the social piece, and I double down on a few of those that work really well, especially for me and my capacity and my life and business, and I just let the rest go. So it's not. I don't have this, like, I have a secret strategy that nobody's ever heard of. It's like, no, I'm doing all the basic, like, I do search first content. That's my number one thing, SEO. And now geo, which we'll talk about, I'm sure. Email over everything. Like, Email first, search first, and email first. Marketing is like, that's my mo. And then I say like, partnerships over posts because I really like saying yes to align podcast interviews. I like doing JV partnerships with people. I have affiliates. I am an affiliate. I'll even just do like list swaps and just other high leverage visibility that doesn't require constant posting. Hamster wheel, you know, stuff. But there's nothing secret magic about my strategy. It's just like believing that you actually could do it without Social.
- [13:20]
B
Okay, so I'm obsessed with this. Also happy to know that it's not like this unicorn that only works for Kate, because I think a lot of times we can trick ourselves into that, right? Like. Well, of course it works for her. You know, it's so interesting. I recently did an interview on the show with an amazing founder. Her name is Mimi Bouchard. And on the episode she talked about how she gave up social for eight months and her business doubled.
- [13:44]
C
Yeah.
- [13:44]
B
And it was like this, like, seed, this gift being planted in my life of like, well, wait, like, tell me more about that. And she's talking about the book 10x is easier than 2x, which I am now just like obsessed with. And. And the main idea of that is if you wanted to double your business, there's probably 20, 30, 50 paths to do to it. Right. Like, you could double down on content or create more content or whatever that is if you wanted to 10x your business, there's probably only one or two levers that you could pull to actually get you there. And what if you focus more on those things? And I feel like in a way, that's kind of what you've done in the sense of, like, looking at all the levers you can pull. Social is just one lever that honestly takes a lot of time. And it's really hard to track the actual return. Like, I often think about Shark Tank. Our family loves Shark Tank. It's like one of the only shows we let our kids watch, like, with us in terms of adult tv. And it's fascinating because they'll ask about, like, your cost per lead or your cost per acquisition, et cetera, et cetera. And it's like all these people are focused on, well, I have this many followers or I got this many views, and it's like. But oftentimes it doesn't actually translate into.
- [14:52]
C
Yeah.
- [14:53]
B
And so it's just interesting. Is that kind of what you found for yourself as well?
- [14:56]
C
Oh, yeah. I mean, some people will say, oh, and I. I mean, this is very relative. I know you have like a million plus followers, but people have said to me, well, you already had 7,500 followers before you left. And I'm like, I can guarantee you that that 7,500 did not even translate into $7,500. It's not a one to one thing followers. I mean, this is like probably really obvious, but I feel like it's a vanity metric. So we have like an SEO audit or a social media audit rather that we have people do when they're trying to figure out, well, could I do this? And a lot of times the first thing we start with is like, is it even working for. So you can see, okay, I spent 10 hours last week creating content, engaging comment. I mean, whatever the heck. I don't know what the strategies are anymore because I'm out of it. So. But whatever the strategies are, I spent 10 hours last week doing that. And how many people can I say join my email list because of that? How many sales can I directly attribute to that effort versus even running ads on social, which I think is a very different thing than being on social. I run ads sometimes too. And it's like I set up an ad, I let it run, and then I can see immediately, okay, I had a CPL of $2 or I had. This was my RO ad. Like, you get to see it and decide, okay, this isn't working. There's very few things in life that we would see how badly it's working and keep doing it over and over and over again. I think it's like maybe like the diet industry where we've been taught, like, it's our fault, but like, it's the system. Like, the system is not designed to work for you. Instagram does not exist to help entrepreneurs grow their business. Instagram exists to help Instagram grow. Instagram. And so that's it. Like, you know what?
- [16:47]
B
You were just. What popped into my brain as you were talking too is like, if you think about, like, let's say you are spending 10 hours, which honestly I think is incredibly conservative for most entrepreneurs, but what could you do in those 10 hours to generate funds to pay for the ads that actually result in leads, right? Like, if you could even spend one hour and earn, say $200 and you toss that into ads to actually generate real, qualified, aligned leads.
- [17:14]
C
Yeah.
- [17:15]
B
How would that change the end result of your business? Right? Because it's like I could hear the hesitation in somebody's mind of like, well, I can't afford ads. And it's like, but wait a Minute you are spending your time, what is your hourly rate that you are throwing away onto social media? One thing that I've done recently, I'm on the path, Kate. I'm on the path.
- [17:34]
C
I love it.
- [17:35]
B
And I put this app on my phone. I'll link it in the show description because it has transformed my relationship with social media. But essentially all of the apps that I signified, so Instagram, Facebook, all the different places are blurred out on my phone. And if I click on it, it'll take me to an exercise where I have to take a deep breath in, a deep breath out, and then it says, do you still want to go in? Yes or no? And it'll have like a really good, meaningful quote about time or like currency before that. And so say, like, do you still want to use the app or are you going to go somewhere else? And then if you say, yes, I want to go into the app, it asks you, how much time do you have to devote to this app right now? And it's one.
- [18:15]
C
Gosh, this is genius. I love it.
- [18:17]
B
Brilliant. And so it like yesterday I had to get a post up and I was like, okay, it's going to take me 10 minutes to get this post up and then I get locked out again. And I would have to go through the whole process again if I want to get back in. I no longer scroll social media at all. I literally log in to post and log out. It has transformed my relationship with social media on such a visceral level because it's like that pattern interrupt. I don't think entrepreneurs recognize how much time they are just passively scrolling, how much time they're tricking themselves that they're looking for inspiration, but they're really not doing anything with it.
- [18:52]
C
Right, Right.
- [18:52]
B
And how many rabbit holes they're going under. And so anyways, I'll link that app in the show notes. But I am on the path of Kate.
- [18:59]
C
Yes.
- [19:00]
B
Baby steps. Okay, so let's talk about, like, what is happening in the world. So when I first heard about you on Amy Porterfield's podcast, I became a customer and a student of yours because I was so, so freaking curious. And you really inspired me to get our business back into SEO. So search Engine optimization. We've done a few episodes about SEO in the past, but it was something where it's very easy when you're in the flow of a business to let that piece go. Right. Or to not be SEO minded in your creation, in your building. And so over the last six months, we have like, Four freaking hunkered down on SEO. It has become the essence of where we are creating from. It has become a counterpoint in even things as small as how we name our podcast episodes, and it's really just injected itself into every aspect of our business. So talk to us a little bit about SEO for entrepreneurs who maybe have been playing the social game, but they're like, well, what is this other path? And, like, how do I get on it?
- [20:08]
C
Yeah, well, and it's interesting because we're in a, like, new territory now with AI, and a lot of people are saying SEO is dead. So I want to talk about some of that, but first I want to say, I mean, I don't think SEO is dead. I think SEO is changing. And I think there are some things about it that maybe have gone by the wayside. Like keyword stuffing is definitely dead. That's been dead a while, but certainly now much more so. But I feel like it just, like, grew up and got a new bestie. And now that bestie is GEO, which stands for Generative Engine Optimization, aka how to be found through, like, ChatGPT and Claude, and people using AI tools to ask questions. Because people are still searching. They're just searching. Some people are still searching on Google and Bing, and some people are searching with AI tools instead. But they all need content to show. And so now it's just a matter of, okay, how do we adjust this so that we can be found with AI tools as well? How do we show up in the little. Now, if you Google something, it'll have, like, a thing that says, you know, the AI answer basically to it. And so do you even want to show up there? Like, clicks are definitely down from showing up there. You have to give them a reason to want to find out more. But, yeah, they think the foundations of SEO are still there. So this is how I always like to start these conversations, especially because SEO gets a bad rap. Like, technically, people are very intimidated by it. The foundation of SEO and GEO is create helpful content that answers questions people have. That's it.
- [21:58]
B
That's the essence.
- [21:59]
C
That is the essence. Yeah, like, yes, we could talk about schema and keywords and site speed and all that, but, like, the essence is just create content that answers questions. People are literally typing in to Google or Chat GPT and they need answers for, like, that's it. So I really think even if all you do is pay attention to that and you don't worry as much about the technical aspects, especially, especially with geo, you're probably still going to Be findable, which is the whole purpose of SEO is so that people find you. And the great thing about people finding you through SEO or through search is because they're. You're the hottest they're ever going to be. They're literally typing in something that you have to offer versus social media. Like, that's interruptive marketing. You've got to stop the scroll. You've got to be so, so freaking juicy that not only do you stop their scroll, but then they click away from the scroll. And we all know, like, at the end of the day, when we're scrolling, we're not clicking stuff. I am just my. Like, we're going to be mindless, right? Yeah. So I can get into more specifics around it, but I just kind of like to give that, like, disclaimer of, like, it's actually really simple.
- [23:13]
B
Yes.
- [23:14]
A
Before we thank our sponsors who make this show possible, I want for you to pause for a moment and ask yourself, what is one area of your business that is draining your time and not delivering real results? This conversation might just open the door to a new strategy that brings back both peace and profit. We'll be back in just a minute.
- [23:34]
B
You know, it's so funny because, like, I'm the Pinterest girl. I love Pinterest. Pinterest is a search engine.
- [23:40]
C
Yes.
- [23:40]
B
Really. The same practices that work for SEO are the same principles that work on Pinterest. It's just a visual search engine. Right. There's the visual, More visual aspect. And it's so funny because I was at a Mastermind recently and I was talking about how we were doubling down on SEO and I actually got into a heated discussion with somebody else about it. And I was like, they were talking about the AI generated summaries. And I said, well, I want my content to show up in those. I want my content to be populated in those, because it does lead to clicks, but it also positions you and your name and your awareness. Like, it is almost like a free Google Ad in a sense, without paying for it. Right. And so we have even been mindful in terms of creation of, like, creating those biteable pieces that answer specific questions so that we're showing up in the AI generated summaries. And I literally googled something and showed them. I'm like, see that?
- [24:36]
C
That's us.
- [24:36]
B
And it says our name and it says our block. And if you want to click, you can see more about it. And so it is changing the game. But I think that one thing that I've recognized in my own Life and business is that when you focus on keywords and SEO and searchability, whether it is Google Pinterest or now AI, it gives your content longevity. And kind of like what you said, where you're like, I did the experiment and nothing really changed. Same for us. Like, our traffic is not dependent on staying on a hamster wheel. Our traffic is fueled by previous content that is still being found, whether it was created a month ago or a year ago. Right. And I love creating that kind of content because you are literally answering people's questions, right? It's not you sitting down at your keyboard and being like, what do I have to say today? It is like, what are people looking for and how can I help? And that is my favorite kind of content to create. And so as a content creator, you are missing gold in terms of serving your ideal audience. And like Kate said, meeting them exactly where they are at, they are literally finding you because they are typing in the problem that you can help solve. And so, I mean, it's just this, like, very simple thing. So I got into your course, started taking it. I pulled in one of my team members. I was like, we gotta, like, double down on this. Like, here are the things I'm learning. Here's what we've got to focus in on. And it has just been this beautiful methodical work of going through past top performers and optimizing. It's very small, and I love it. Nerdy work where I'm like, yes, this post from 2022 is still relevant and it is still beneficial. And so I love that. So let's talk about, like, for an entrepreneur who is burned out on social, but they are intimidated by SEO, what is, like, a reasonable starting place? Where's the starting line for somebody like that? Like, what are maybe three steps they could take to help just build up that organic visibility?
- [26:40]
C
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love what you said, just about sustainability and shelf life. And that is 1000% why I love SEO and recommend that it is something that you have. I always kind of say it as, like, in the background of your business, you don't need to be publishing even a post a week. Like, you can publish a couple posts a month, and they will work for you for literal years. And sometimes based on what's happening in the news and the. You know, like, I remember when Covid first hit, I had a blog post on my former blog I wrote four years prior. So it was in 2016, I wrote this post about organic meat delivery, and that skyrocketed when Covet hit and we earned 50 grand in one month from this post that I wrote four years ago. And so there's stuff like that. Like, I have a million stories like that. And that's why I'm like, you don't need like. So the first advice is you don't have to go dive in with like, both feet and do every, like, do all the things. That's not SEO. Like, SEO is much chiller. SEO is just like, this is a sustainable thing. Think of a couple questions that your ideal client asks. Whether you are, you know, an established business owner. And you're like, oh, I could come up. Like, I get asked them all the time, or you're brand new, but you can just think about what are the kinds of things I can help people with, what are the questions that they're asking? And now I would say, when you create a post, lead with the answer. So put that concise quotable takeaway in the first one to two sentences of the post and then have the rest of the post, like the headlines be formatted kind of as question answer. Because that is how things are showing up now with either the Google AI generated summaries or in ChatGPT and AI tools where people are typing stuff into there. It is the, like, more Q and A style format that seems to be working best right now. And then the second thing is to lead with your own experience. And this is the thing that, like, AI is never going to replace true human experience.
- [28:52]
B
Experience.
- [28:53]
C
And so, like, one of the things I publish every month on my blog is income reports. And I publish those and I say, this is the experiments that I tried this past month and how they worked. And this is how things felt. And I'm also a mom with OCD and a lot of neurodiversions in my family. And we've got, I, you know, I've got a busy life. And here's how I was juggling some things and this came up. And it's my firsthand experience experience. It's my case study. I'm sharing screenshots of my bank account. I'm sharing screenshots of, you know, numbers. And AI can't remix that. Like, it can't replicate your lived experience. So I think everybody's like, oh, AI is killing SEO. And I'm like, no, it's not. Now, like, we get to write the things that we actually want to write and talk about it from our perspective rather than just trying to keyword stuff and get all the technical stuff, stuff, you know, put in there. It's like, now we're structuring our content more for humans again instead of the machines.
- [29:53]
B
Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that so much. And you know what's funny too is like, I remember the panic of being like, oh my gosh, we're spending so much time on SEO and like, is this, like, obsolete? And then I remember looking at our GA4 for Google Analytics, and ChatGPT was sending hundreds of people our way. Like, where it was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's not like an either or, it's a both and right? And as we learn more, we do more that work for that. But it was like, it's not actually stealing people. Like, people are probably typing in like, what's a great marketing podcast for business owner, right? And I am probably populating hopefully and other results. And so it's like, wait, like, how do we work with it and not be fearful of it or work against it? And I think that one of my favorite things about marketing is that there are so many just tried and true principles at the end of the day, that no matter what technology steps in, there is a human nature that only humans can respond to. And that is like, I have a question and I want to know somebody that's been through it and how to do it, right? Like, it's like that cannot be replicated or replaced. And so it's just amazing. I mean, it's, it's phenomenal. And what I think is so fun from a content creation standpoint is when you shift from trying to feel like the most interesting person out there, the most beautiful person out there, or, you know, the most inspiring person out there. And you can just be a helpful human thing. Your content shines, you get found, you actually help people transform, whatever it is that they're transforming. And it shifts your energy around the content creation process from it being a chore or feeling like you just wasted your time because the post fell flat to doing something that you are creating today with the certainty that this will be working for you long after you get published. Which is not the case on social media. Which is why, like, I often joke, Kate, I'm like, the only reason why I'm on social media is to meet people where they're wasting their time and get them off of it like that. I literally my purpose on being on there because I'm like, there are so many better ways. I think a lot of it is fueled by long form content. And long form content is what is found with search, whether it's podcasts, YouTube, blog posts, etc.
- [32:12]
C
Exactly, Pinterest. Those are all search. Like, we had a shift, I think of people wanting short form content for a while now. I think it got to this point point where people are like, there's no depth to this and like exhausting. Yeah, it's exhausting. It's a million pieces of content all the time. But I get the same thing. I actually have an ad running right now that I run on meta and it's basically says, you know, I quit social media and my business grew 165%. Which is true. And then the post, like the caption explains, like, I know you're probably calling me a hypocrite because here I am on social, but this is an ad. This is different than organic posting on the hamster wheel, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, the comments that I get on this ad are so hilarious because people don't read and people are hateful online. But then it's like 5050 now of people coming in and complaining or calling me out of like, oh, but here you are. And then other 50 is people like defending this and going, she's here because you're here and trying to help you get off of here, but she's got to reach you where you are. Like this ads are the way for me to meet them on social without me having to be on social. And so I think that's such a good distinction too of like, and that's how I've approached it, I guess is just like, well, if other people are still on social, how can I meet them there? And for me the answer has just been I'll run ads and I don't know how to do anything working and.
- [33:44]
B
Get them off of it. I love that. Can you walk us through kind of just like the basics? We've talked about it, but kind of give us like the snapshot of what is like a non social based funnel strategy. Like yeah, is it ads to email to sale? Like what does that look like for you?
- [34:03]
C
Yeah, so I do run some ads, but I would say it's not my number one lead gen source. It's kind of just again something that is like working lever you can pull. Yeah, it's a lever. Exactly. So everything still comes back to my email list in a blog post. I'm trying to get them on my email list. Like that's the goal. I sell everything through email. Like some people call it lazy launching. And I'm like, that's just launching for me now because I'm not. Yeah, like it's just effective launching. And so everything is through email. And I have lots of very different kinds of funnels in my email service provider that are different from what we used to do, which used to work great of like get somebody on an evergreen webinar, send them through a seven day sales sequence, make a sale of a $2,000 course, move along. Like we did that for years and made a lot of money. I mean especially in 2020 and 2021, which was like if you were an established course creator during that time, it was like this was the money printing era. It was amazing. And now things are a little different. So now we have lots of different types of funnels and automated sequences. Some, you know, they might go into and it is a concentrated period of time where we're promoting one specific thing. Some are more like I have a long term, like people call it a forever funnel or like a long term sequence. But it's like every Friday I have a shop now that has 50 plus products in it. And so things only sell if you talk about them. And so every Friday there's an email that goes out that is promoting something. It's like set up to be like a live flash sale, but it's automated the whole thing. Like they get a coupon code for that day. It's a 24 hour flash sale. And I just, I wrote, you know, 52 emails and now I just don't touch it and it just goes out every week. And so every Friday I know I'm making money because people are going to get the Friday email. So I have funnels like that. I have a lot of funnels that I call like invisible funnels that are more like feedback loops. So I'll have things like when you join a program of mine, we'll have you fill out an intake form. And then using some cool AI magic too, we have automation set up where that intake form gets like reviewed by our AI, response is drafted. We have a human touch on the end to make sure that it actually makes sense and is, you know, what we would recommend. And then we're starting a conversation with an individual and that often leads to more sales, more trust, more relationship with your people. So I have lots of tiny little things like that and most of them are evergreen and automated. And I only work 20 hours a week myself. So I'm just like the evergreen queen. I rarely do anything live anymore. Oh my gosh.
- [37:02]
B
You know what hit me is like you and I are very similar. Like I feel like we have very similar brains in like especially for me, when I became a mom, I was like, any time that I'm spending in my business, it can't just be like a flash in the pan. Like I can't create for the sake of creating. It's just not worth it to me. Like it's not worth it to tell my kids, like I'll be with you after I get this post up. That's not worth it to me. Like that is just not worth it. But you know what struck me interesting, and I think my business is similar to yours in a lot of ways, is that most people don't have time to tinker, to create, to think about long term funnels, to be ideating things that will live on longer because they are so focused on the flash and the pan marketing. Like it takes time and energy and bandwidth to set up those automations. But I just saw a stat yesterday that said that automated emails generate three times more income than like one off emails. And because you're doing it with thought, you're reaching people at a specific time in their journey where the offer makes sense. Right. And I feel like so many entrepreneurs are spending so much time on social and creating all these one off things that they're not even able to think long term, bigger picture, 30,000ft a year from now. And so it's just fascinating to me where it's almost like we got it twisted that this is where the time is going when it could be so much valuably spent. And I was talking to someone the other day and I was like, I could stop creating today and my blog, my podcast and my Pinterest would all live on and probably be generating revenue for years to come.
- [38:49]
C
Yep.
- [38:49]
B
And a lot of people can't say the same. A lot of people, if they say stopped posting today, their business would stop right here.
- [38:57]
C
Yeah, that's scary. It's really scary. I took a six month sabbatical last year. I did zero marketing. I worked less than five hours a month during that time, which was only to serve a couple one on one clients that I kept on board. And we made almost six figures on that six month sabbatical. And it was like I didn't do anything. And people kept saying, oh, but you had ads running. I'm like, no, there was no marketing. Anybody that may found me solely through things I had done years ago, months ago, in the past.
- [39:31]
B
Yeah, it was wild.
- [39:32]
C
And everybody's just like, I don't understand how you're doing it. It's like I'm just not wasting my time on the short term, like you said, cash in the pan stuff. Yeah, it's just like, everything I do is very systematized. Long term, it doesn't mean there's no tweaking. It doesn't mean, like, Nothing is truly 100% passive. But, yeah, it's just like, I stepped away for six months and I was fine. And I don't know that many people could say that. And I think it's solely because they're so focused on social. So I think that's such a good point.
- [40:06]
B
Yeah, I just. When I really come to, like, the heart of my personal entrepreneurial spirit, it is to have the safety and security to know that things will live on longer than the day they're published and to have the trust that the work I'm doing today will still make an impact tomorrow. And I feel like those things are, like, when I distill it all down and, like, get to a thesis, like, that is the work that feels worth being away from my kids. Like, that is the only kind of work that actually feels worthy of the call. And so it is a fascinating era where I think we are so attracted to what is shiny and scary sexy that we miss the foundational pieces that can be almost that little engine that could. That is constantly running. I often tell this story, Kate, in one of my masterclasses about how when I first had my daughter Coco, which was the same time that you were also having a child, it was like, up until that point, I had all the time in the world to, like, show up on stories every day and.
- [41:17]
C
To post every day.
- [41:18]
B
Like, I had just. Just endless amounts of time. I'm like, what did I do at that time? For real? And once I had her, it was like this really big shift of, like, one, I don't necessarily have the time. Two, I don't have the desire. And I remember doing a very similar experiment to you of, like, I am not showing up every day. I can't commit to that, and I can't do that. And the same thing happened for me. All of the other levers were still working. And it really made me realize that, like, so social media is just a lever I can pull when I want to pull it. And if I am struggling to connect it to the results, it's probably not the best place to spend my time. And it just shifted so much for me because it really made me realize, like, I think we are tricked into believing that it is like the gasoline on the fire, but I would say it's not. It's like the light, the wind on.
- [42:10]
C
The fire of your life. Yeah, it's crazy. It's so true. And I was thinking too as you were talking, like, it's so much more than the time that you spend on social that you get back. Like, of course you get that back when you aren't there anymore, but it's so much more of the, like, mental bandwidth and like, we just don't realize how much of our time was going into like, oh, should I take a picture of this? Should this be a post? Should this be like, oh, I got to think about my next post. Oh, how did that last post. Do I need to look at the engagement on that? I got it. Like, it is constant when you're on. Like, that's part of the hamster wheel is just thinking about it. And so I found, like, that was almost more like, influential for me than just like, oh, well, I was only posting a few times a week, so it wasn't like it was taking, you know, dozens of hours. But yeah, my brain had so much more white space to think about things that were more important and, you know, whether it was for work or just life.
- [43:11]
B
Yeah, I agree.
- [43:14]
A
Real talk. Doesn't your business bestie need to hear this? Share it with a friend who's feeling stuck on the content treadmill or wondering if there's a more sustainable way to grow? This conversation could shift everything for them. Especially when you hear Kate's game changing way to partner with AI to serve your audience even better. Now, a big thanks to the brands who support this show. We'll be right back.
- [43:37]
B
What is one thing that you wish more entrepreneurs understood about SEO or GEO that could save them months of effort? Like, if we can just like hit the pause button and be like, before the end of the year, let's just save you a little bit of the heartache. Or maybe something that could save them money. Like, what is something that you wish people understood about it that they're maybe just missing?
- [44:00]
C
I mean, part of me wants to go back to what I said before, which is like, it's just not that complicated. Answer questions that people have.
- [44:09]
B
You have any strategies for finding the top questions their ideal audience might have?
- [44:15]
C
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I've got lots of those. And this is a great way to use AI because you can go into chat GPT and say, here's my ideal client. Or like, one thing I recommend doing is pick one transformation out of one person and then solve one tiny problem for that person. So if you go into chat GPT and say, I help Blank. Go from this pain to this desired outcome with this method. What should I be blogging about right now? Give me 25 ideas or even say, what are 25 problems that this type of person has? What are 25 problems? This person asks, like, then just start writing a post to answer each of those. And if you're like me, you know, if you've been in business for a while, I go often to, like, I have people pre submit questions for our live coaching calls. So I upload those questions and say, what could I need to make blog posts out of these questions? And so, like, I can actually see these are the questions that people are asking me. So you can do things like that. Like, take your existing content, take emails that you've received from people asking questions, and. And repurpose it into blog posts. I mean, maybe that's what I'll say is my. Like, one thing is the repurposing potential is so huge now. And, like, I have a lot. I do a lot of live coaching calls. And so I'm now taking the transcripts from those calls and using AI to turn them into blog posts. And I've created this custom GPT that's trained on all my SEO frameworks and now GEO and how to structure a blog post, all that stuff. Now I don't even have to really think so hard about it. I can just go, okay, we have this great coaching call the other day about imposter syndrome. Take what we talked about on here. Take some of my coaching, turn it into a blog post, and my GPT just spits it out. And it's like, great. There we go, Done. And so now blog posts, you know, what used to take me hours is now taking me half an hour. And of course, I'm putting in my own tweaks and edits and things. But, like, first draft written by AI. Brilliant.
- [46:20]
B
Yes. Oh, my gosh, I love that. I want that GPT. I think it's so smart. And what's so interesting, too, is that one thing that we learned about from you and from other SEO experts is like, we were almost cannibalizing our own content because we were trying to, like, recreate the wheel over and over again to, like, talk about the same thing. And so I have been blogging literally since 2010, and I just kept thinking, well, what's a different way to talk about the same thing? Okay, what's a different way to talk about the same thing? And one of the best things that we've learned is, like, instead of trying to come up with something new, let's refresh something old, like, let's make it better, let's update it. Like, let's republish it as new, fresh content as we know more do more, have more more to add to it. And so what's interesting is, is we've stepped off of another hamster wheel that we were unknowingly on in terms of, like, well, we need to be publishing new blog posts every single week. And it's like, wait, wait, wait. Like, how about this month we publish two new blog posts and we refresh two blog posts that are top performers or that could rank well in search. And so it's even simplified internal processes around content creation and made us like, re look at past stuff that was really good and like, how do we make it better? And so it's like, man, you don't even recognize the hamster wheels you are on in your business until you are invited to step off of them. And like, it's just, I think the whole point of this whole episode is like, there are different ways, there are better ways. And when time is your currency and you're creating with longevity in mind, it just shifts the energy you're creating from and the way that you create. Instead of trying to catch somebody's attention, you get to meet the people who are already seeking out what you know and what you do. And it's like just a whole different energetic exchange, you know?
- [48:15]
C
Yeah, exactly. I think that is the biggest thing about interruptive marketing versus, I need a term for it, but like, essentially search.
- [48:24]
B
Like welcoming invitation marketing.
- [48:26]
C
Invitation marketing, yeah. Like there are RSVPing, like they already have showed you. Yeah, I'm interested in this. Tell me more. And so, yeah, it's so much easier and like, the quality of traffic that you get. You might get 500 likes on some Instagram posts, but that doesn't really mean anything that they're going to buy from you, that they're going to work with you. It doesn't even mean that they read your post. Sometimes it's just scrolling out, cute picture, click, click, move. Next thing you know, like. So I think the quality is so much better too. And you'll find it's so much easier to market, to sell, to connect with these things people, because they're looking for you and they want to be there.
- [49:09]
B
Yes. I did this like, case study in my masterclass and it was a post that I did that literally went viral, had millions of views and I think it was like 3.2 million views and I think total 600 people even clicked to see my profile. Like that doesn't even mean like clicked the link in my profile. But just it was like.0001 or something like that. And then it was like, okay, that post like looks incredibly impressive. I didn't get a lot new followers and nobody really clicked my website. I had no way of capturing that information. It didn't any sales. And then it's like contrary to that, a pin on Pinterest that I posted two years ago that gets less likes but more clicks, right, translates into actual leads or sales. It's like, okay, what is easier to create a viral reel or a graphic or a piece of content I can live on in search and still be searchable. It's like, oh man.
- [50:09]
C
Exactly.
- [50:10]
B
Pivot ad pivots the whole thing.
- [50:13]
C
It really does. Like one great post can send leads for years and one viral reel doesn't even send them in the moment that it goes viral. So yeah, I think we're so conditioned to pay attention to the external metrics that others can see. Likes comments follows and those just as we all know, like, they just do not translate to the actual metrics that matter, which are more the back end. People can't see. Other people don't know how many people clicked our posts. Other people don't know how many people came to our website, opted into our email list, bought something there, like, but we see that and that's really all that matters. If you're in business, the only thing you really care about is are people buying what you're selling. And so at the end of the day it's just like it might boost your ego to say, oh, I have X, Y, Z followers. Or this post got so many likes, but who cares?
- [51:05]
B
No, I don't care. Speaking of customers, I am a customer of yours. Can you tell people about the offer that made me beg you to come on this show? And also just too how you're transitioning in this AI powered world to meet people where they're at. If somebody is listening to this and they're like, hey, I want to give this a shot, or I have content that I know could be searchable. Walk us through it. What is it? How does it work? Why am I obsessed with it?
- [51:33]
C
I love it. Well, the course that you're talking about is called antisocial SEO. And so it is a very like stupid, simple masterclass on SEO and all of the different things that you need to know about. We do talk about some of the technical stuff. We talk about some the of schema we talk about keywords, but it's also been recently updated for GEO and for AI. Again, I really don't think SEO is dead. One thing we know is that even chat GPT and AI agents, they're looking at search results from Bing. Chat GPT uses Bing. They're all pulling from what's ranking. Well, with SEO. So even though there's some different things that you can do to rank for each one, they're still working together. And so I think, like, while everyone else is mourning the death of something that was, I think, is just getting its second wind, y' all can be learning more about SEO and GEO in this course. And the GPT that I mentioned is included in that course. So even if you're like, I don't even want to learn all this stuff. I just want to be able to write a blog post that is optimized.
- [52:44]
B
Great.
- [52:44]
C
Just use the custom GPT. You don't even have to take the course. Just go in and it will do the work for you. And you can make your edits and add in your story, your voice, your experience, because that is going to be the number one thing that matters.
- [52:58]
B
Oh, I'm so glad I have access to that because I was going to ask you for that offline. So look at that.
- [53:05]
C
There you go.
- [53:06]
B
Thank you so much for coming on. If anyone wants to check out that course, you can go to jennicucher.com forward/science SEO. That's jennica.com forward/SEO. I was gonna say, where can everybody find out more about you and learn from you? Which is where most people drop their Instagram handles and give us the real places we can find out more and connect with you. Kate.
- [53:26]
C
Yeah, I love it. Well, I just want to add to that, if you use the code Jenna50, you'll get 50% off the course. So there you go. A little savings for all the Jenna listeners. And yeah, where you can find me not on social. I mean, technically I have a profile. I have a static. So you can run your ads. Yeah, exactly. I got to be able to run ads. I've got my static 9 grid there. You can see I haven't touched it in years. And yeah, so when you click that link in the show notes to the SEO course, poke around my website from there too. You'll. It'll take you back to my shop and to other things that I've got going on there. There's a bunch of ways to get on my email list. That's where I hang out. I'm really not anywhere else. So I would just recommend signing up for my email. There's a million ways to get on there once you're on Successful Soul Co.
- [54:14]
B
Oh, it is such a joy. This has been a long time coming. I remember just freaking out when Amy had you on her podcast. And I just feel like you presented a new menu option at the buffet of entrepreneurship that I was hungry for. And so thank you for letting us know that it's possible, that it's real. And I feel like you really did inspire massive action internally within our team. And what our focuses are are as we continue to kind of poke our heads into this new AI world, but also with like the safety and security of the tried and true principles that have been working and that are still working. So thank you for that, Kate.
- [54:52]
C
Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me here. Such an honor to be here. I can now put thin featured on the Gold Digger podcast on my resume. So thank you.
- [55:02]
B
I love it. Thanks, Kate.
- [55:04]
C
Bye.
- [55:06]
A
Oh, this episode is so juicy. And I feel like it's just so important to note there are so many levers we as entrepreneurs can be pulling. And if social media is not resonating with you or if it feels forced or if you're just straight up burnt out, I want for you to take from this episode the knowledge that there are other levers to pull. And I remember first hearing Kate and her success without social media and being not only jealous, but inspired into action. I immediately got her course. Me and my team started moving through the modules and lessons. Even just yesterday I was asking someone on my team, hey, did you look at this of what Kate teaches? Because it's just become such a pinnacle in our own business and something that we've been heads down focused on while everyone else is focused on cranking out content that is living and dying with the algorithm. So if you want to check out Kate's offer of SEO with Soul, go to Jenna kutcher.com forward/SEO. That's Jenna kutcher.com forward slash SEO. I fully back and have loved this system and it really just inspired and lit a spark back into our business of where we can focus and what levers we can be pulling that don't require showing up on social every single day. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the podcast. If you know somebody who hates social media and wants to run a successful business, send this episode to them. It will be your gift to them for free. And of course, until next time, gold diggers, keep on digging your biggest goals. Thanks for listening to the Goal Digger podcast. I hope today left you inspired and equipped with something you can put into action as you build a business that truly supports your life. If this episode resonated with you, here's how you can help this show reach even more entrepreneurs. Hit follow. Share it with a friend who's building something meaningful, and if you're feeling generous, leave us a review Those reviews help other listeners discover these conversations when they need them the most. This show has become so much more than I ever imagined, and it's because of listeners like you who show up and share. You are helping build something that will inspire entrepreneurs for years to come. For show notes, links and resources, head to gold diggerpodcast.com keep digging your biggest goals. The world needs what you're building.
- [57:23]
B
Please note this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements, and individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in the episode. Your support through affiliate links or sponsored content helps us continue to bring you valuable content. Thank you for being a part of the Gold Digger community.