931: Small Changes, Big Shifts: My Evolution Happening Behind the Scenes

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Goal Digger Podcast

Episode 931: Small Changes, Big Shifts: My Evolution Happening Behind the Scenes
Host: Jenna Kutcher
Guest: Marissa – VP of Operations
Date: November 17, 2025

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Overview

In this special episode, Jenna Kutcher hands the interviewer’s mic to her longtime collaborator and right hand, Marissa (VP of Operations), for an intimate, unscripted conversation about the ongoing evolution of Jenna's business—and herself. The episode offers behind-the-scenes insights on the pivots, mindset shifts, team changes, and personal growth that fuel the “life-first” approach Jenna’s known for. It’s equal parts strategy, confession, and raw honesty—peppered with personal stories, leadership lessons, and even a rapid-fire hot seat Q&A.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Power and Process of Pivoting

• Pivoting is “like breathing” for Jenna—an integral part of her entrepreneurial DNA. She never shies away from changes, whether it’s moving from photography to digital entrepreneurship or restructuring her business goals.
  • “I think that I have always been someone who is so multi-passionate that my pivots don’t even feel like pivots. It just feels like an extension of who I am.” (05:30, Jenna)
• The pivot process always begins with a period of letting go—paring back to make space for something new.
  • Jenna shares that before any major shift, she feels a need to release or “peel back to enough” so new evolution can unfold. (06:34)

2. From Chasing Growth to Protecting Peace

• This past year, instead of focusing on “more,” Jenna and Marissa intentionally shifted towards protecting peace and aligning business with their personal values and life stage.
  • “It was one of the first years in business where I wasn’t trying to outdo myself or the company. I was finding a comfortability in not chasing more.” (08:12, Jenna)
• Marissa describes the challenge of detaching from the usual “push for more,” and how that changed her approach to both work and identity.
  • “I actually had to step back and pause my own identity and think through, okay, am I chasing more because I feel like I need to?” (09:54, Marissa)

3. Re-Evaluating the Audience: The Survey & The 'Sarah' Avatar

• Undertaking a deep audience survey reconnected the team with who their Ideal Client Avatar (“Sarah”) really is now, and what she truly needs—primarily, small steps and proof that transformation is possible.
  • “So many of us, myself included, we just need proof that we can change, that we can take action, that our dreams aren’t crazy… I love proving to somebody that they can do it.” (13:07, Jenna)
• The insight: Their actual audience hadn’t dramatically changed, but the team is more connected than ever to who they’re serving and how.
• At the heart of Jenna’s mission now is giving women back their time—creating systems that support the life they dream of rather than overwhelm them.
  • “At the heart of them is getting people back their precious time.” (14:38, Jenna)

4. Doing Less, But Better: Inspired by "10x is Easier Than 2x"

• Jenna shares the book "10x is Easier Than 2x," and the concept that real exponential growth often comes from eliminating the noise and doubling down on only what works.
  • “The 2x is where all of the more and the noise lives... But if you wanted to 10x anything, there would likely be one or two clear things you’d focus on. The rest is excess.” (21:40, Jenna)
• Both hosts discuss their cyclical, “seasonal” approach to business—balancing optimization and rest, and pausing to celebrate unseen wins.
  • “The real work that drives results is the work that's not clapped for and not seen.” (24:49, Jenna)

5. Leadership and Team Evolution: Navigating Change with Empathy

• Jenna reflects on unexpected team changes this year, learning to balance her deep empathy for people with decisiveness as a leader.
  • “Sometimes loving is letting people go. That is the most loving thing you can do—for you, for them, for the company.” (27:10, Jenna)
• Marissa emphasizes the importance of finding a community or person to challenge and support you—especially for solopreneurs.
  • “I think it is so powerful to have a human in your life like that when you are building a business, because we all know how lonely entrepreneurship can feel.” (29:43, Marissa)

6. Interpersonal Dynamics and Human Design

• Jenna and Marissa talk openly about their collaborative rhythm and how tools like Human Design brought self-awareness, respect, and efficiency to their partnership.
  • “We’ve built this really beautiful dichotomy where we know where to challenge one another and we also know when to just go for it.” (33:54, Jenna)
• Human Design differences—Jenna as a Manifesting Generator, Marissa as a Projector—are openly discussed, and how they’ve learned to check in and “honor each other’s energy and timing.”
  • “It allows me from an operational standpoint to pad in time... nothing is ever urgent, but it allows me to just plan in a way that better supports that.” (36:25, Marissa)

7. Staying Grounded Amidst the World’s Noise

• Jenna shares her recent commitment to reducing mindless social scrolling and curating her inputs using the Clear Space app:
  • “It’s greatly reduced my consumption... If you go to click on any sort of app you’ve limited, it asks you ‘are you sure you want to go in?’ How many minutes do you want to devote? It’s brilliant.” (43:10, Jenna)
• She stresses getting deeply involved in community offline, maintaining real relationships, and focusing on tangible change in “your own backyard.”
  • “If we start in our own backyards, won’t we be bettering the communities we’re raising our kids in?” (45:36, Jenna)

8. Legacy, Impact, and Creating From the Soul

• Jenna’s definition of legacy: creating meaningful work that stands on its own, beyond strategy, and would feel right if it were her last.
  • “If this were my last piece of work, do I stand with it? Does it matter?” (47:53, Jenna)
• She strives to ensure her work, brand, and business practices reflect her heart and beliefs—not just her skills or accomplishments.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On pivoting with intention:
  “Before any big pivot usually comes this need and desire to let go of something... pair everything else back to make space for what is to come.” (06:19, Jenna)

• On redefining success:
  “What is the point of more? Like, what is more better, and what is going to serve me and the mission?” (08:34, Jenna)

• On audience clarity:
  “I love beginners... I love proving to somebody that they can do it.” (13:07, Jenna)

• On actionable clarity:
  “The real work that drives results is the work that's not clapped for and not seen, and it's not easily illustrated in an Instagram reel.” (24:49, Jenna)

• On the power of a supportive partnership:
  “You, Marissa, are like my North Star of leadership and being a boss... Sometimes loving is letting people go. That is the most loving thing.” (27:25, Jenna)

• On human design and working style:
  “We check in with each other in a beautiful way... If you want to run with this, you run with this. I'm not going to stand in your way.” (36:07, Marissa)

• On boundaries:
  “I have such fierce boundaries around my kids and time with them. I have not missed a damn thing, and that is so rare.” (55:36, Jenna)

• On legacy and meaning:
  “I want my job and the work I do to be the least interesting piece of me.” (56:34, Jenna)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:04 – Marissa introduces the episode’s “tables-turned” interview format
• 05:26 – On personal evolution and the comfort with pivoting
• 08:12 – Focus shift: seeking peace over endless growth
• 11:01 – Insights from the audience survey and redefining the ideal client
• 21:40 – Jenna’s 10x/2x revelation: eliminate the noise, double down on what works
• 26:31 – Honest talk on team changes, leadership, and empathy’s double-edged sword
• 33:54 – How Human Design improved their working relationship
• 43:10 – Clear Space app and protecting your mental bandwidth from social media
• 47:38 – Defining legacy and creating from the soul, not just for strategy
• 51:27 to 56:53 – Hot seat Q&A: rapid-fire, candid questions about business, life, and quirks
• 56:34 – Jenna’s biggest shift in thinking about success

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Hot Seat Q&A Highlights

• Launches:
  “Launching live is not overrated. You get to connect with people and get instant feedback.” (51:27, Jenna)
• Instagram withdrawal:
  “Have I thought about quitting Instagram this year? Not once, a million times!” (51:55, Jenna)
• Entrepreneur therapy:
  “Yes, every entrepreneur should go to therapy. It will show you exactly what you need to work on.” (52:09, Jenna)
• Team’s description:
  Marissa: “Majestic. You’re very powerful in your energy and at your heart.” (52:44)
• Guilty work snack:
  “Sour candy. I can’t quit it!” (53:07, Jenna)
• Alternate career path:
  “I love working at the soup kitchen… but birth doula too!” (54:38, Jenna)
• Fiercely protected boundary:
  “Just time with my kids. I haven’t missed a thing.” (55:36, Jenna)
• Best business move almost missed:
  “Writing a book. I thought I never would, but it’s a big piece of my legacy.” (55:50, Jenna)
• Biggest mindset change:
  “My job is the most interesting part of me — I no longer believe it. I want it to be the least interesting.” (56:34, Jenna)

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode is warm, candid, often humorous, and deeply personal—teammate banter meets business therapy. Jenna and Marissa blend strategy with real talk, inviting listeners behind the filter to see what sustainable, values-aligned entrepreneurship really looks like.

Listeners are encouraged to:

• Welcome change and pivots, big or small
• Prioritize peace and alignment over perpetual growth
• Invest in community and mentorship/support
• Embrace both soul and strategy in their businesses
• Set boundaries, especially around time and personal energy
• Remember that real legacy comes from what you mean to others, not just what you do

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Resources & Recommended Actions

• Clear Space App – For mindful social media usage
• Book: “10x Is Easier Than 2x” by Dan Sullivan & Benjamin Hardy
• Podcast: “How I Built This” with Guy Raz

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For more, visit goaldiggerpodcast.com for show notes, tools, and resources. Don’t forget to share the episode and leave a review if you found it valuable.

Transcript

[Jenna Kutcher]

This episode is supported by what Should I Do with My Money from Morgan Stanley? Okay, can we just talk about how money is legitimately one of the hardest topics to bring up? Like, even when you think you have your stuff together, there's always this really.

Weird awkwardness around it.

That's why I am obsessed with this podcast. It actually makes money conversations feel approachable. I recently listened to an episode about affording multiple big life things at once, like a wedding, a house, an ivf, if they were all happening at the same time. And honestly, it hit home. So many people are wondering, can we actually have it all without sacrificing our sanity or our savings? What I love is that they bring in real experts who help break down these massive costs into actual doable steps. It's like having a money mentor in your ear who gets it. Search for what Should I Do with My Money in your podcast player. We'll also include a link in the show notes. Many thanks to what Should I Do with My Money And Morgan Stanley for their support.

[Marissa]

It's like we check in with each other, I think, in a beautiful way where I'll say like, hey, here's what we have on the docket, but let me know how you feel and what.

[Jenna Kutcher]

You are pulled to.

[Marissa]

And then she'll say, I'm really pulled to this creative piece right now that I want to do. And it's like, all right, I will not stand in your way.

[Jenna Kutcher]

I'm Jenna Kutcher and I help you trade hustle for purpose and build a business that gives you the life you.

Actually want to live.

From a $300 Craigslist camera to a seven figure business I run from home, I've learned that success isn't just about what you do. It's about how you live. Here you'll get strategies that work, systems that give you your time back, and steps that turn your effort into results and impact. If you're ready for clarity, confidence, and a business that feel as good as it looks, you're in the right place. This is the Gold Digger podcast.

So what happens when the person who usually asks the questions becomes the guest? Well, today's episode is a little different.

Because the tables are turning on me.

My right hand gal, our VP of operations and truly the co strategist who.

Has been in the trenches with me for years.

Marissa is taking over the interviewer's chair. If you've been following along on the show, you know that evolution is just a part of my DNA. Come hell or high waters, I am.

Never afraid to Pivot to shift, to.

Reimagine what business and what life can really look like. And some of the biggest shifts happen behind the scenes. And as I was thinking about this episode, I think that a lot of the shifts are happening behind the scenes that might surprise you as a long term listener and that I wanted to bring to light in kind of a fun way. From unexpected lessons in leadership to team changes, to the ways my relationship with even you, the listener, has evolved, this conversation is a truly candid look at.

The past, the present, and maybe a.

Glimpse into the future of my brand. You're going to hear the real stories behind what is stretch me. You're going to hear the concepts that have literally stopped me in my tracks and changed my trajectory. And yes, we're even leaving a few Easter egg clues about what might be coming next. We're not just spilling it all yet, but if you've ever wondered what. What it's really like to build and bend and evolve a business while keeping alignment at the core and the center, I think this episode is exactly for you. So buckle on up for a conversation that feels way more like you're listening in on two teammates chatting over coffee. Because that's essentially what this is. Marissa, my girl, welcome back to the Gold Digger podcast. Okay. I'm excited for this one. Slightly nervous, not really, but I'm with, like, just someone who is so dear to me.

[Marissa]

Me.

[Jenna Kutcher]

We're going to talk about how deep our relationship goes. Marissa, welcome back to the show. You're no stranger to the podcast.

[Marissa]

Thank you. Thank you. It feels good to be back. I'm not, but it's still so exciting to be here.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Marissa]

So thank you for having me.

[Jenna Kutcher]

So we're doing something a little bit different today, and you are kind of turning the table on me. And this will totally be a conversation, but you came up with some good questions. Part of me was like, I don't want to look. Part of me was like, I have to look. And so let's go. You came up with some really good questions.

[Marissa]

Yeah. So, okay. Every time that I have been on the show and we have talked, I feel like we continue to peel back the curtain a little bit more on not just what it looks like in business, but also who we are becoming through it. And something I have always loved about you and just like, really, really deeply admire about you is that you are never afraid to pivot. Like, you evolve out loud. You invite people to come along for the ride, which is, like, so freaking cool. And so that's where I really want to start today, and, like, I want to talk about how the brand has really evolved lately for us and you and in ways that maybe even longtime listeners haven't really caught on to yet. So let's go. Okay.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Pivoting is so. It's like breathing air to me. I don't know why it's. And. And I know that's not normal, right? Like, I think that I have always been someone who is so multi passionate that my pivots don't even feel like pivots. It just feels like an extension of who I am. And so it's interesting in the business world because I think it can be really confusing for people when you are somebody who does a lot of things and wants to do a lot of things or isn't afraid to try new things. And for me, what I found, especially when I'm really introspective, is before any big pivot usually comes this need and desire to let go of something. And, you know, I think of, like, when I finally left corporate America and I really needed to just, like, jump out of the plane and let the parachute enter, you know, as I'm building this business or when I think about when I left photography and really dove into the digital entrepreneur space. For me, I've always had a gift. I think it's a gift of leveraging what is working right now, but peeling it back to the minimum or the enough point to make space for what is to come. And so it's interesting, like, whenever I feel like I'm on the cusp of an evolution or something is, like, calling at me like, I want to change or I want to try this different thing. I always kind of have to start with, like, okay, how can we pair everything else back to make space for it instead of it feeling like I'm just adding another thing on top of my plate? What does it look like to the world when you watch somebody who's like, I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do.

[Marissa]

This well, I can validate and watching it behind the scenes alongside you, that it is, in fact, a gift from my lens. It is, in fact, a gift to be able to take action and approach in that way. And I think on that same tune of, like, becoming and really, like, welcoming that gift and using it well, like, what has stretched you this year in tandem with that, and maybe in a way that's revealed what you want next or what you are even, like, ready to release next.

[Jenna Kutcher]

So my answer is Actually, I think this is for both of us. I'm going to speak for both of us. We are a unit. I think one of the biggest shifts and challenges that we've entered into this year, which ties into the whole thought of pivoting, is like, instead of chasing growth, is like, really looking at, like, protecting peace and, like, what do we want our lives to look like? Right? And it's been interesting because I remember you came back from maternity leave and you were like, all right, like, what's our goals for the year? And it was one of first years in business where I wasn't trying to outdo myself or I wasn't expecting the company to do more and be more. Right. Like, I was finding a comfortability in not chasing more. And I remember that stretched you a little bit. I remember, like, specific conversations where you're like, I'm gonna need to come back to this. Because for so many of us, there's this piece of our identity that's tied to, like, who am I if I'm not, like, pursuing more or, like, pursuing greatness in that? And I remember having a different level of confidence. And I think too, even in our parenthood journey, like, I'm just a few years ahead of you. And so it's almost like the wisdom that comes as a parent in such a short amount of time. Right? Like, I'm not coming at you as like a nine year old lady being like, I remember when it's more like, holy crap, this goes by so fast. And so for this year, I think a huge shift was like, what is the point of more? Like, what is more better and like, what is going to serve me and the mission? So almost like this, like, holistic look at goal setting. A holistic look at, like, who am I both in the business and outside of the business, as well as who do I want my team to be in that? What was that like for you? Because I know that was challenging for you to walk through.

[Marissa]

It was. So you were right on point that when I came back from Matlieb, I was like, ready to go. Yeah. Like, I felt so rested even with a newborn, in juggling all of the things through postpartum, but just feeling ready, like, okay, what is next for us? Like, I'm ready to give it my all. And so to have you pull back and help me approach looking at the business in that way and where we could go, it felt like a release. Like I actually had to step back and pause my own identity and think through, okay, am I chasing more? Because I Feel like I need to do more and I want to build more and I want to be able to say that we've accomplished more. Or again, is this me? Like, it really doesn't need to be that. Like, we can do more, but in a simpler, more beautiful, grounded way. And so you helped pull back the layer of that for me, of looking at, okay, individually, but also for the business and for how we're going to collaborate and how we're going to build and. And we're going to do it in just a simpler but smart way. And so that really, I think, started our trajectory, which then really pairs nicely into what we started to do differently, which is the last time I was on the mic, too, we talked about our survey.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Marissa]

So if you haven't listened to the episode, go back. It's a great chat about how, yes, surveys aren't sexy, but they can be extremely powerful. And so we started to look at how can we get even more clear and aligned so that we can make those moves and not do more, but just do less in a more impactful way. And so, Jenna, I want to talk about, like, what we found from that and looking at our ica, how we rebuilt her and how she has evolved alongside us in the brand and, like, what she needs from us now versus maybe what she needed from us five years ago.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah, that. I mean, that was probably the best I told you so moment you could ever have. I mean, you've had a lot of those in the business. But for. Thank you. Even the other day, I like, message you. And I was like, it's the gift that keeps on giving. So doing that survey and we'll link that episode in the show notes for you. It was a really beautiful thing for a million reasons, I think for insights. Right. And data. Great. But I also think it was almost this reconnection with who is it that we're creating for. Like, who. Who is it truly like? And we joke around because it was like our ICA was like named. ICA stands for Ideal Client Avatar, if we're speaking weird language. And I hate the word avatar because I always just picture the blue guy. So it's just, who is it? Who do we actually want to write to? And we had named her Sarah. And I was like, I feel like she's like a Rosie. I feel like she needs, like, a trendier name. But she's probably Sarah. She's probably Sarah and Ashley or Jessica, if you're born of our generation. And you know what really struck me about it is one I Think we weren't far off. So I think that what's beautiful is, is that we've always remained tethered to this idea of the beginner. I love beginners like it is. I remember sitting in the hotel room on our team retreat just, like, getting choked up of, like, I love. I love women at the start of their journey. Like, I love proving to somebody that they can do it. And so what's been really interesting about it is I don't feel like we were too far away from her, but I feel like we're more connected to who we are creating for you, the listener, right now. And the biggest things I think that I took away from the survey and even just being in that realm of, like, reading the results and real people, putting real people behind numbers was, like, so many of us, myself included, we just need proof that we can change, that we can change our lives, that we can take action, that our dreams aren't crazy, that we're not. Not selfish like, that we're capable of starting something and following through. And for me, it's like, I've always kind of tried to hang my hat on, like, imperfectly leading women. Like, I am such an imperfect leader, but, like, I also believe that imperfect action is what makes things happen. And so it was a really beautiful exercise. And it's literally the gift that keeps giving because we just keep going back to it with every decision we make in this business. And. And so, yeah, I really love that. And I think as I've grown and evolved and looked at really, like, the thesis of my entire work, like, if we were to take all the work I've done over the last decade and put it into a book at the heart of it, and maybe even unknowingly at first, what I have built is systems and strategies that allow you to build something that doesn't take over your life, but gives you the life that you want. It's really like this life first idea and think we live it, and I.

Think we embody it.

But I also think that if you break down all of these nitty gritty little systems and the courses and the strategies, at the heart of them is getting people back their precious time. And so when I think about our ideal client, when I think about Sarah, I just think she's already stressed and maxed out. She's already questioning herself, like, what is something very small that she can do today to help build her belief that she can do it again tomorrow and do it again the next day and show up in that way and I think that that's really cool. A few months ago I got my.

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[Marissa]

Do you remember too after we had that group session at the retreat?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Marissa]

And we we have this conversation and then you and I stepped away and we had our time together and talked about that and I Remember when you were speaking about Sarah and your. Your core of, like, how you want to really serve. You feel this work at such a soul deep level. And it's really just so beautiful to see because it's really. I think serving is just the perfect word to really encapsulate who you are because you want to give. You want to connect her to that path, to give her that life that she truly Dre dreams of. And so that's one of my favorite moments.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah, we're like, laying in bed and you're like. I was like, no, I. I freaking love her. And it's interesting too, because I have, you know, peers in the business space who are, like, so tired of beginners. And that's fine. That can be really real. But that is not me like, that. I'm like, give them to me. Give me somebody at the starting line and let me help her get the confidence to cross it. That's it. That's where I'm at. Bread and butter.

[Marissa]

Perfect guide. Perfect guide. So with that too. And I think one of the reasons that you are so incredible at, like, taking the beginner and even someone who is more advanced, let's not just structure all in that, but is that you are constantly learning. Like, you are one of the top people I think of when I think about someone truly as an active learner for life, whether it be books, podcasts, collaborating with peers. Like, you were always sending me different resources and also, like, just really effective ways to tune in and learn, which is your manigen energy, which, again, I love about you, but with so much, like, wisdom flying around, I'm just, like, really curious. What is one concept or even, like, quiet truth that's actually stopped you in your tracks and made you take action differently? Tell me that.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah, I really am just such a curious person. And it's funny because if I get together with my mom friends in town, like, we'll get together. And I swear to God, every time I leave them, I, like, have a list of, like, books, podcasts. They, like. Like, I'm just like, okay, there's this book and this. And like, it is wild. My level of consumption. But it's all over the map, right? Like, it's not like, one thing. It's like, I'm just so curious. Like, I just want to learn. And. And I have talked about this one on this show, but I really do think that this year it really revolutionized the way that I think. And you and I were literally talking about it yesterday, and so it feels really fitting. Is the book 10x is easier than 2x. It's written by Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy. I know Benjamin. He's a fantastic human. And what's hilarious is that he, like, I heard about this book years ago. This is not a new book. And I hated the idea of it because for me, someone who doesn't necessarily want more for the sake of more, it didn't resonate, right. Like, this idea of, like, hearing, like, 10x, like, I don't. I don't want to 10x anything in my life, like, that feels, like, really overwhelming. And I finally started listening to the audiobook of it, and it just captivated me. And what captivated me about it was, I think when I was first hearing 10x, it was like this idea of, like, doing more, being more. And, like, I'm like, we're already everybody stretched thin. This is crazy. But the heart of it and the thesis of the book and why I bring it up so much, because it's very fresh in my brain, but it's also just, I think, very powerful is this notion of if anyone wanted to double their results, whether it was in their family, in their business. If you wanted to double your business, There are probably 10, 15 different paths you could take. There are different levers you could pull, right? You could do more paid ads, you could write more blog posts, you could be on more podcast episodes, you could show up on Instagram, or there's just so much right?

[Marissa]

And.

[Jenna Kutcher]

And the 2x is actually where all of the more and the noise lives. And I think that that is where so many people are operating out of when they are trying to grow and scale. And the notion is, is that if you wanted to 10x anything in your life, there would likely be one or two clear paths, clear levers that you would pull to get there. And when you can eliminate so much of the excess that is not getting you to where you want to go, and you can just. Just double down on what works. Not only do you have more time and more life, but you get better results. And when I understood it in that context, I was like, dang. And in the book, he tells these stories of these entrepreneurs who, like, had really successful businesses and basically, like, cut out 80% of what they were doing and double down on the one or two things that really worked. And, you know, they had these exponential results. That's not what's actually appealing to me. It's just like the doing less but better. And I think that's been the theme for us this year, and that's Been really the theme for us for a while. But that theory and that philosophy was really life changing for me. And what was interesting too is if you do the audiobook, which I recommend, afterwards, Ben interviews Dan and they just, like, talk off the cuff about the chapter and the thoughts and stuff. And there are some really interesting stories and things that stuck with me. Just about your belief around yourself, about relationships, about scaling, like, so many things. I really liked it.

[Marissa]

We have absolutely adapted that into how we've taken action. Especially a lot of times we use our summer months to really focus on optimization and digging into the data. I feel like a lot of times businesses are continuously just churning, right. And so there's. We talk about putting aside the time to actually dive in and take action based on what's working and what's not, but that doesn't realistically take place. So another piece of the puzzle here, if digging into this resource or this concept, really being intentional with that time and making space for it so you can really apply because it's been powerful and it's honestly powerful. Not just in business, but I think in life too. And even looking, you know, how I adapt through life.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah, I mean, I think that one thing that we've done really well to your point is like, we kind of operate in seasons. And, you know, we're both gardeners, so we know, like, there's a season of harvest and a season of rest. And I think that, you know, we're very active wrestlers. It's not like we're just gigging back and chilling. But I think that even, you know, since you've come on and we've kind of just gotten into this rinse and repeat rhythm we have built in these pockets that allow us to get into some of the nitty, gritty, nerdy stuff that, like, you and I both love. And you did something really cool yesterday where we were just looking at some numbers and some data and you said, hold on, let's pause for a second.

Like, look at this.

Like, look at what we're seeing right now. This is work that we did three months ago that we're finally, like, reaping the harvest of. And I think that, one, I love that you called in to, like, pause and to celebrate and to, like, recognize. And two, it really helps us to appreciate because a lot of times the real work that drives results is the work that is not clapped for and not seen and it's not easily illustrated in an Instagram reel or anything like that. And you and I both are so deeply inspired by that work. But oftentimes it's like you can be so quick on to the next thing. And so I really, like, I loved that. And I agree. I think. I think it's. It's very cyclical because it's like, how could you ever get to a place of 10xing if you're just staying on the 2x bandwagon? Right. Like, there's. There has to be that break and that pause and that spaciousness to allow yourself to even evaluate. Like, what is it? Like, what do I let go of and what do I do more of, you know?

[Marissa]

Absolutely agree. I always say, too, growth is insidious.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah.

[Marissa]

In the way that we can't see it.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Y.

[Marissa]

Always. Right. At least not initially. So to that point, I. I could not agree more. And with that too, is we continue to hone in and evolve and so forth. This year has brought, like, a lot of behind the scenes shifts. And, you know, we've had changing contractors, we've had team pivots, you know, some of those not so fun parts of leadership that most people do not see on the highlight reel. So can we talk about that? And you know, how you've navigated it all, not just logistically, but also emotionally, because that's a big part of it too.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah. I mean, this year has held a bingo card that I wasn't expecting. Like, there's just. There's been things on it where I was like, oh, I didn't see that coming. And I am like such a deep lover of humans that I know for a fact that it can get in the way of my leadership. Like, you, Marissa, are like my North Star of leadership. And like, being a boss. And I have such a hard time. I'll be damned if I do and damned if I don't. Like, I have such a hard time separating my love for people with leading a company and an initiative and a business. And it's part of what makes me me. Right. Like, for better or for worse, it's part of, like, who I am as a human. But it's a skill that I have greatly been strengthening over, I mean, since I've had a team. But also I think a lot. I've been challenged a lot this last year in, like, what is real leadership. And like, sometimes times loving is letting people go. Like, that is the most loving thing you can do for you, for them, for the company. And so it's been interesting. And one thing I will say that has been so beautiful in having a partner like you, which not a lot of People do, right? So, like, a lot of people listening, they don't have a Marissa, dang it, for them, right? But one of the things that I think has been really beautiful, and it is like, you have allowed me to be me, the deep feeler, the empath, the lover of all humans, while also reminding me, like, at the end of the day, like, this is the job and this is what we need to do and this is what we need to get done, and finding that balance of, like, being an effective and communicative leader who is leading well and loving well. And I just think that that has been a challenge. And I also think that I have a much greater awareness around where it's happening. Like, I think about a lot of the conversations you and have had where I'm like, I see this and I know this about myself right now, and I recognize how my love for this person is creeping into, you know, the decisions I'm making. And I'm aware of it, and right now, I'm not ready to change it or, you know, here's how I'm inching into it in a way that still feels comfortable for me. But I think that you and I like, iron sharpens iron, right? And having those different takes is such a. A blessing. And it's something I wish every entrepreneur could experience because there will absolutely be hard times and hard decisions and, you know, areas in your path where you have to let somebody go or you have to part ways or, like, you couldn't imagine not working with this person, and now it's just no longer a fit. And we've had to navigate a few of those this year. And I will say that I think we did a really beautiful job, and I have maintained relationships with every person, and that's really important to me. That's really important to me.

[Marissa]

And I think too, for those who don't have a Marissa and are in a space where they're starting to build and they are by themselves. You invest in your business in certain ways, but also, I think so imperative to invest in yourself and finding someone who can be a North Star for you, whether that is your partner, whether that is a peer, whether you are joining communities or masterminds and finding that human who you can bounce those ideas and questions and who's going to hold you accountable in that way. I think it is so powerful to have a human in your life like that when you are building a business, because we all know how lonely entrepreneurship can feel. But as you grow, I just think it's a non negotiable that I would personally say is. Is a must have. And with that too, Jenna, I mean, you've grown so much. Like we have worked together now six years, we were working on going to year seven. I want to commend that growth and leadership, I think, to a lot of entrepreneurs come in. And I will say for me personally, when I had my business before and I was growing and I had a team, it was like, I know, all right, Like, I am good, I've got my path. Like, we are going to forge ahead. And. And I think a lot of times it can be a pain point personally for leaders and founders to really open themselves to be aware of where I do maybe take some personal ish into business or where I could stretch myself when it comes to people or human. And so what would you recommend or say has been one of the most helpful, whether it be, you know, a resource or just something in which you've taken action to become more aware or to grow as a founder in that way?

[Jenna Kutcher]

I mean, therapy, like, I mean, fair. No, I mean, I feel like. Yeah, I totally agree. And you know what's interesting is I feel like now I feel like I often say to you, like, challenge me, veto me. Like, like, step like where I am invite in the challenge. And if you listen to past episodes with Marissa, you'll know that like, the first year was freaking rocky for us because I was coming at it more from this, like, all knowing dictatorship. I mean, like, I don't know how else to say it. Like, it was my baby and I wasn't gonna let anybody take care of that baby.

Right.

And so it's interesting because now I'm like, step in, challenge me. Look at this. What am I missing? And I think that that, that comes from ego death, which I think a lot of entrepreneurs need in some form or another. And it also just comes into where you and I have built, I mean, a marriage. Like, you are my work wife, right?

[Marissa]

Absolutely, yes.

[Jenna Kutcher]

And it's so cool because we bring very different gifts to the table. And I think that's why the challenge. And we can laugh about it now because we're like, damn, that was hard. But if we wouldn't have gotten through that hard, we wouldn't be where we are. And it's really cool because you are like a human design guru, right? Like, this is, this is you. You breathe that in, you speak it into life. Like, you really tap into people's gifts and you understand it on a way deeper level than even I do. And one of the coolest things I think about our relationship now is because of our awareness around things like human design. You know, my energy levels. And, like, I'll be like, hey, I know I'm pulling something right now, but I'm real excited. Like, do you have the capacity for this idea right now? Or I found myself, like, I'll get an idea. And I'm like, you know what? Before we bring it to anybody, let's just sit with it. Right. And so it's not even just an individual awareness. It's an awareness in how we both operate. And in the past, like, I would just, like, freaking word vomit like, like, make you drink out of a fire hose with, like, ideas and strategies. And I have very much learned to, like, sit with the ideas and trust that if they're great ideas, they'll still be here a week from now or a month from now. And then I think you've also learned in terms of, like, not tamping down my excitement around something. And, like, just like, you're like, if you want to run with this, you run with this. I'm not going to step in until you tell me you need me. And so we've built this, like, really beautiful dichotomy where we know where to challenge one another and we also know when to, like, just, like, go for it. Like, you go for it, because I can feel this in your body. Explain this on a more human design level because this is just like my experience.

[Marissa]

Yes. So if unfamiliar, there are five types within human design. Jenna is a manigen, or a manifesting generator, where I am a projector and so already authorized. If our energies just operate in very different ways. Jenna has this, like, very multi passionate, like, almost engine of energy that continue to go, go, go. And with that, what fuels her energy is most times excitement. So it can be a creative pool for her or this visionary idea or a special project. Right. Whereas a projector, as I am, my energy is more ebb and flow. It's going to go up, it goes down. And so already right there, you can see in just energy output, there can be a place of contention in us just not being able to move at the same speed at the same time. And so that is a place that we've had to learn to honor each other. The other piece, you know, we just did this last week where Jenna can literally go from idea ideation to delivery and execution, lightning speed fast. And because of, again, my energy difference, I'm not always able to move in that way. And so within that too, as a projector, my place is to guide, like, naturally, I am here to guide energy, which makes sense why I'm in operations. Because where Jenna can just get us from, I shouldn't say just, it's incredible. You can get us from A to B. Very quickly. I come in, see the vision, and then I kind of pedal back, pause, and allow us to break out and really sense like, okay, is this realistic from a team capacity and energy standpoint? Operationally, can we make this work? And so that will sometimes put a pin in things. Or maybe it's like, hey, we can't actually do this right now because it doesn't make sense for X, Y, Z. And that can cause frustration for a manifesting generator because for them they're like, like, hey, I love it, let's freaking go and do it. And then I'm here as a projector saying, wait, pause, let's like let this settle and really figure out if we can make it work. And so that is another point of contention that we've had to really honor in each other and like work through. And now it's like we check in with each other, I think in a beautiful way where I'll say like, hey, here's what we have on the docket. It but let me know how you feel and what you are pulled to. And then she'll say, I'm really pulled to this creative piece right now that I want to do. And it's like, all right, I will not stand in your way. Like, you execute the way you need to and like, I'll be here when you are ready. And it also allows me from an operational standpoint to like, pad in time so that like, in any way, the way that we work, like, nothing is ever urgent, but it allows me to just plan in a way that better supports that too. Where I'm like, okay, she has time and space to do what she needs to do and I have time and space to like get things in order to support that and get everything to the finish line. So two different ways in which we get to the destinations. The journey is different, but we're still working and walking the same path to get there.

[Jenna Kutcher]

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I think too like we used to like almost Read between the lines too much. Like, did you see that in a weird tone? Or like, what do you mean by okie dokie? Like, what does that mean? Like, and now it's like, if I'm offended, you'll know it. And if you're like, where it's like, there's no. Honestly, like, the emotional bandwidth has expanded exponentially because there's no undercurrent in any of our communication and our ability to like express that of like, oh, no, I'm feeling this way. Or like, like one day I was like, there's a kid in the bathtub who's gonna puke. And like, I'm sorry, I'm just being quick, you know, and it's like interesting where like we can quickly communicate. So I. Yeah, I really, really love that. And I think it's just really interesting because, you know, I think we've gotten into a place of like handing off the baton to each other. Almost like a relay of like, you go, I go. And we can trust each other in those pieces. And it just makes the rhythm, which is something that we really looked at this year with kids and life and time and passion and projects and all these different things. I think it has been very successful in terms of a partnership.

[Marissa]

I couldn't agree more. And now that we've talked about human design, I mean, those listening know that we love a little woo with our work. So human design does fall under that category. But for anyone who is right now just craving that clarity or momentum and they're feeling stuck or there any other like out there per se resources or things that you would recommend does totally worth trying.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. I don't know how woo this is, but I do feel like it's like so transformative. I feel like right now the world feels like it's on fire. And I think it can get really, really, really overwhelming. Especially too if you are trying to start something or do something or post something. It's like there are so many tragedies in the world every single day. And it's like, how do we show up among those? How do we make a difference? What do we do? And so I actually was talking to my therapist about this last night because I was like, you know, like, what do we do? Like, how do we actually change the way world? Like, what does that really look like? And I was telling her one thing that's been so beneficial to me is really limiting my consumption. So I want to be an aware person. I want to be aware. But I do not want to be drowning in information to the point where I am inactive. Right. Because if we're taking ourselves out of the game, whatever the game is, whether it's the game of business or like the game of freaking changing the world and making it a place we want to raise our kids in, if we are so paralyzed by what we are seeing happening in the world, we're doing a disservice to us, to our families, and to, like, the change that we can actually make. So I got an app on my phone, clear space. I talk about it on almost every team call because I'm like, oh my gosh. Yesterday somebody asked me something about Instagram and I was like, actually, I can't get into Instagram right now. Like, I have to hacked my own phone. And she was like, really? You, like, you have so many followers, you're so active on there. I was like, no, no. I have basically built a system that I cannot access it. And so it's a greatly, greatly, greatly reduced my consumption of social. I know members of our team use it. Essentially, if you go to click on any sort of app that you've limited, you have to take in a deep breath and you have to really. It'll say, are you sure you want to go in? And if you say yes, it'll say, how many minutes. Minutes do you want to devote to this app? Which I think is brilliant, right? Because how often are we scrolling? We don't even realize how many minutes we're saying goodbye to in our life. So I think that has really changed my life in terms of just being aware and staying in awareness, having trusted sources where I get information from, but not letting it paralyze me. And then the second thing I think is like. And again, not really wooey. But I think it's like, where the world is going is like, how are we in community? Like, if we took away the news and the Internet and we only looked around where we live, wherever you live in the world, and you noticed your neighbors and you noticed people out and about, and you saw a need and you thought of ways you could fill it, and you saw opportunities to use your gifts and you saw places where you could lend a hand or give a hug. How would that change our lives? And I feel like it's just this thought that I have really connected with in the last year. You know, last Friday I went and volunteered at the soup kitchen, which is something I've been doing over the last year. And my grandpa, who's gonna be 90, comes and serves Food. And I look at him and I'm like, he is still in service at the age of 90. That is success to me. Like, that is a life well lived. And I think about, like. Like, how do we stay not numb to what's happening, but how do we find ways to stay active in the places that we can? And I think that when we see such big problems, we think there's no way I can be a part of a solution. But I think that the opposite is true. And if we start in our own backyards, won't we be bettering the communities we're raising our kids in? So maybe not. Woo. But I feel like it's just a part of, like, my core belief is like, we need to get back into community. We need to get connected again. Like really connected. Not just like I see you online, connected. And I think that you will see so many opportunities to use things that you are brilliantly good at in ways that you maybe never had explored. And so, yeah, that's kind of. I don't know. That's what I think.

[Marissa]

I love that. I think that ties in too, of like, how you are leaving your print in business, but also in the community around you. I think sometimes we envision that touch point to be so big when it can be small and yet so impactful and beautiful and meaningful. And a term that I never really held weight in before I met you was the word legacy. It was never really something that I personally thought about until I really got to know you personally and then also what you were building towards. And so when I think of legacy, it's. It's a big word. It holds that weight, but you are really living it. And so when you think about the impact you and the brand is making now, like, what are you most proud of?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah, legacy. I think about it all the time. I don't know why. Sometimes I think I was raised in a very morbid family where we, like, I don't know, death was around us a lot. And so I think I often thought about, like, what did that person's life mean? Or what are they proud of? Or what are people grieving about them? Right. And seeing the beauty of it. I mean, my dad was a firefighter and worked at a paper mill, and my mom was a nurse. And so, like, if we had a bumper bruise, they'd be like, girl, we saw way worse today, you know, And I just think I understood, like, context in the gravity of. Of life and also loss I think I've been creating out of a well of like, if this were my last piece of work, do I stand with it? Does it matter? And I think that that place of creation has been unwiring a lot of the strategy parts of me, which I love, but it's just a piece of me. I think for a long time I led with strategy. I thought with strategy. It's a very, like, masculine energy of, like, force. And I feel like lately I've really been thinking, like, what is worth saying and what do I want to say? And God forbid, if this is my last episode or my last post online, would people look at that and know who I am and what I believed? And it gives me more legs to stand on, I'll tell you that. In standing in the fire on things that I really believe in, where maybe in the past I've been a little bit more quiet or more vital vanilla. But I also, like, sleep well at night knowing, like, I said what I believe. And, like, my daughters could see this someday. And I think it's interesting, too. I think as. As my kids get older and their awareness grows and their consciousness expands around just everything and the work we do, it's like, so much more beyond, like, what we could belittle ourselves to. Like, I'm not just the Pinterest girl, right? Like, there's so much more to that.

And.

And so it's like, I want to create out of a well of what I believe to be true, not just for me, but for others. And I want every post to feel meaningful and impactful. And it's interesting trying to find that balance of the strategy side of me with the heart and the soul and, like, those pieces. And I. I think I'm learning how to, like, weave it all together, and I'm learning where each one. One stands and where each one matters, because they both matter, especially as a business owner. But, yeah, it's really interesting. It is. And I think now you know when you see how precious life is and you also, like, go and investigate, like, what people said before, maybe their last breath, it's kind of puts things in a different perspective of, like, wow, what do I really want to say? And what is worth saying? It's an interesting place of.

[Marissa]

It is. And that's been a core concept for you since the start when you started in photography. Right. Because a part of that was to capture moments in time. Yeah, right.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah, totally.

[Marissa]

That's beautiful. And I get to be on the forefront of also seeing that evolution, too. And I will say to you, hey, I like when you get a little spicy. Yes, like you have, and I'm here for it. It could be my Latino self, I don't know, but I am here for it. For the spicy. Yes. And on that same beat, I was so excited to have this, like, time with you because a lot of times I don't feel like people have seen in our past episodes together kind of the banter between us and, like, that real life, like, vibe and flow. And so we're gonna just have a fun little hot take seat session. Okay. Okay. It's gonna be good. It's gonna be a little mix of combo. I'm gonna ask you a few. Yes or no. Maybe fill in the blank. It's gonna be good. Are you ready?

[Jenna Kutcher]

I'm ready.

[Marissa]

Okay. Yes or no for me, Jenna, launching live is overrated.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Oh, shoot. No, not overrated. Underrated. You get to put your best work out there. You get real live data, and you get to connect with people live. So I actually really love launching special.

[Marissa]

Have you thought about quitting Instagram at least once this year? Yes or no?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Replace once with a million times. Yes. Every day of my life. Yes. Fair.

[Marissa]

We talked about this a little bit earlier and how impactful it could be. So every entrepreneur should, in fact, go to therapy. Yes or no?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yes. If you want to learn more about yourself, become an entrepreneur. If you want to see all of the areas of your life life where you need healing, become an entrepreneur. And if you are able to have access to a professional to help you work through that, 1,000%.

[Marissa]

Love it. Okay, one word. Give me. My team would describe me in one word as.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Oh, dang. Wow. Can you answer that? You're my team. Loving. I don't know. What would you say?

[Marissa]

I would say, oh, my gosh, it's hard. One word is hard. But I would say, like, majestic. Oh, I feel like majestic. Because it's just you are very powerful in your being, in your energy, and who you are at your heart and your core. So majestic would be a word for me.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Thank you.

[Marissa]

You're welcome. Okay. Work snack. That's your guilty pleasure.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Oh, I freaking love sour candy. It's like the thing I can't quit, like. And it's funny because I'll, like, hide it it, like, in places. Not because I'm ashamed of it. It's just like, my kids will steal it if they find it. But then Coco was like, why do you have, like, sour there? There's these healthy version of sour Skittles, and they're damn good. So, yeah, I love sour. Sour candy.

[Marissa]

That is such A true point. Because when we were in Arizona at the same time, and I came over, you were like, you can have any snacks in the cabinet. Go for it. And I opened it, and there was Sour Patch Kids. And I was like, she is my girl. Because those are my favorite. On top of sour Skittles. Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Okay. Favorite podcast besides yours.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Ooh. Okay. Ooh, this is so good. I listen to such a diverse round of podcasts, one that I've always appreciated, and I brought it up on our team call, is how I built this with Guy Raz. Because I feel like oftentimes we see these big brands and we think it's this overnight success, and it's like, there are so many stories of trial and triumph, of building it. And one of the questions he always asks at the end is like, how much of this was skill and how much was luck? And I just. I think that's such a beautiful question to ask founders, because I think it's a mix of both of those things. So how I built this by Guy Raz is good.

[Marissa]

I agree with that. If I weren't running this business, I'd probably be Fill in the blank.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Ooh. Oh. Honestly, I love working at the soup kitchen so much. I've talked about it where I'm like. I, like, feel so useful and connected, and I feel like women can change the world. Like, when me and my mom friends get in there, we freaking chop up food. It's like, women will. I'm dead set. Women are going to change this world. It's us. It's us.

[Marissa]

Oh, 100%. Absolutely. I would also say birth doula. I could see you being a birth doula.

[Jenna Kutcher]

I freaking love birth. You're right. I. I would have been there when you had your babies in a heartbeat. Like, I. You're so right. Like, I am the person where I'm like, please ask me everything. I am so passionate about it. You're right. Birth doula and photographer, thousand percent. Okay. Yeah.

[Marissa]

You would have coached me through the whole thing. Yeah. You're so welcome. Okay. What's one boundary you fiercely protect no matter what, is on your calendar?

[Jenna Kutcher]

Just time with my kids. I feel like I have not missed a damn thing, and I feel like that is so rare. I have such fierce boundaries around my kids and time with them and. Yeah, that's it.

[Marissa]

Okay. Best business move you almost didn't make writing a book.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Definitely. Like, I just. I never thought I would. I swore I would never, and I. I do feel like when we think of Legacy, like that book is a big piece of mine.

[Marissa]

Would you ever write another one? This is not a part of the question, but I'm just curious.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Yeah, I definitely would. I think I would do it differently and like less strategic and more heart. Again, kind of in alignment with the conversation, but definitely. I love writing.

[Marissa]

All right. And because I feel like your version of success is so unique, fill in the blank. For me. What is one thing I used to believe about success path that I no longer do?

[Jenna Kutcher]

That my job is the most interesting part of who I am. I want my job and the work I do to be the least interesting piece of me. I want to have hobbies and interests and passions so deeply outside of what I do. That work is just like a bystander to the conversation.

[Marissa]

I'm here for it. Here for it. That is concludes your hot seat session.

[Jenna Kutcher]

Survived sweating a little bit. Thank you for coming back on the show. It's always just such a dream to take our conversations outside of slack. Thank you for running alongside of me. One thing that I think people wouldn't know, maybe, and they should, is just like a deep level of respect and trust that lives between you and I. That is such a rare gift. It needs to be be called out. But I'm excited to see where we go next.

[Marissa]

Who knows? But we're doing it and we're doing it well.

[Jenna Kutcher]

That's right. Oh, that was fun. She had me sweating. I cannot express the level of gratitude. I have to have a partner like Marissa in my business and in my life. Really. I feel like her and I were meant to do work together and it's been so beautiful. Just like growing as a person and being stretched as a leader. And Marissa has been so steadfast and so supportive and amazing on the journey and also, like, she has grown and evolved and it's just been such a beautiful thing to pay witness to. So I just hold so much love and excitement about the future of our lives, of the business of what is to come, and just so much gratitude that I get to do it with people that I genuinely love, Love and this episode was fun. I hope you loved it. I hope you send it to somebody who could benefit on listening in. I hope you can find your own Marissa and build something just as beautiful, if not more. And I hope you felt connected to the brand, the mission, and the person behind it, which is me. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Gold Digger podcast. Until next time, Gold Diggers, keep on digging your biggest goals.

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