← The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
The Goal Digger Podcast | Top Business and Marketing Podcast for Creatives, Entrepreneurs, and Women in Business
941: How to Break Free From the System That Needs You to Doubt Yourself
00:55:33
With Anna Malaika Tubbs and Jenna Kutcher
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- [00:02]
A
Okay.
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B
I have been on this ruthless pursuit to purge any clothes that I'm not actually wearing. Like, if I haven't reached for it in months, it's gotta go. I am trying to be really intentional about what I bring into my closet right now, which means I am only buying pieces that I know I will actually wear and use. Revolve just gets it though. I'm literally wearing my brown Autry sneakers from there right now and my new suede purse. It fits my laptop in it, so it's basically a fancy shoulder bag that works for everything. I love finding pieces like that, things that look good but also work hard for my actual life. Their holiday shop is live right now with all the good stuff. Sparkly party dresses, cozy sets, cute gifts, everything you need for whatever is on your calendar. And it's all in one place, which makes shopping feel way less overwhelming. Whether it's a weekend away, a big night out, or a holiday party, your dream wardrobe is just one click away. Head to Revolve.com forward/gold digger. Shop my edit and take 15% off your first order with the code gold digger. Fast two day shipping, easy returns. It's literally the only place you need to shop from. That's Revolve.com forward/gold digger to shop my favorites and get 15% off your first order with the code Gold Digger offer available for a limited time. So happy shopping.
- [01:19]
A
Female celebrities being asked, who's with your kids right now? It's very much the onus is put on us as mothers in heteronormative relationships. And again, that all relates back to these historic definitions of who we're supposed to be and what roles we're supposed to fulfill.
- [01:38]
B
I'm Jenna Kutcher and I help you trade hustle for purpose and build a business that gives you the life you actually want to live. From a $300 Craigslist camera to a seven figure business I run from home, I've learned that success isn't just about what you do. It's about how you live. Here you'll get strateg strategies that work, systems that give you your time back and steps that turn your effort into results and impact. If you're ready for clarity, confidence, and a business that feels as good as it looks, you're in the right place. This is the Gold Digger podcast. What if the very systems we've been taught to trust about success, power and leadership were actually designed to erase us? My guest today is pulling back the curtain on the narratives that have quietly shaped how we see Ourselves, our businesses and our worth. And trust me, you'll never see patriarchy, power or your own story the same way again. Ana Malaika Tubbs is a two time New York Times best selling author and a leading voice in gender, race and equity. Her newest book, Erased what American Patriarchy has hidden from us is truly a wake up call. One that challenges us to rethink everything from who gets remembered to who gets rewarded. I met Ana recently at a retreat hosted by On Site in Tennessee. And I'm gonna tell you, this woman was magnetic. And the best part about meeting her is that I had no idea what she did for a career and I didn't learn about her books until the very last day. Once I heard what she has written about, I knew she would make the perfect guest for this show. Ana has a PhD in Sociology, a TED Talk with over 2 million views, and she's written for Time, CNN and the Guardian. But what sets her apart is her ability to take super complex systems and translate them into powerful stories that reveal what's been buried and to show us how to reclaim what's already ours. So if you've ever felt like the rules of success weren't written for you, or if you've struggled with visibility or making space for your full self in your business, if you've been playing small because it felt safer than being too much, this conversation is for you. Ana Malaika Tubbs, welcome to the Gold Digger podcast. Welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you on.
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A
I'm so honored to be here, Jenna. Really, truly, thank you so much.
- [04:04]
B
Okay, so let's kick this off with kind of a tough one. But so many women that I know struggle with this idea, this thought that they are, quote, too much, they're too loud, too visible, too bold. How much of that fear is actually about safety? Like, what do you wish we would understand about the relationship between visibility worth and the very risks that women face when they refuse to shrink?
- [04:31]
A
Well, all of my work is about talking about the system that framed our whole nation. And we'll get into that a little bit later. But that system really taught us as women and even when we were young girls that we needed to fit into certain boxes and that no matter what we did, really, we were doing something wrong. This was a strategy to control all of us. And so at different stages of our life, we were hearing messages. You were being too loud, or you're supposed to kind of be quieter as a young girl maybe, or even if our families were telling us something different on A larger scale or a societal level, or even what we were seeing in movies and TV shows, We were getting messages over and over again of who we were supposed to be. And a lot of that was this kind of contained individual who just listened to the boys and the men in her life or who was waiting for one of them to make a decision for her. And so, yeah, most of our lives, because that's kind of an unnatural way of being, most of us have heard these messages, and the safety side of it is that we feel comfortable there, because that's what we've been accustomed to. And so until somebody kind of bursts that bubble or lifts a veil off of our eyes and tells us why it is that we've been taught to fit these different boxes, we don't think that anything is wrong with the message. We just think that something's wrong with us. Ooh.
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B
I mean, I'm already seeing this. I know you're a mom as well. And we just shared a really beautiful experience together where there was a lot of inner child work happening. And it's really made me hyper conscious of even just my daughters and the messages that they're getting and the way, as well as, like, they're receiving it. Right. Like, what is the filter that you're running these messages through? And do you even have a filter formed yet? And so I do think that the indoctrination starts incredibly early, and it's everywhere. It's almost like the water we're swimming in. Right. And so it can be hard to separate that from our truths, from our stories and stuff. And so you've said this, and I love it, is you've said, patriarchy is so embedded that we don't even see it, and that's how it wins. And so can you think of, like, one pattern in women's entrepreneurship or, like, their business journeys that we've been taught to call our faults, but it's actually the system working exactly as it was designed.
- [07:07]
A
Absolutely. And I think it really relates back to even this parenting message. And I often say, to address the first thing you were saying, that when we bring children into the world, when we're raising children, we often feel that we have to teach them how to fit into those boxes as well. Right. And to fit into that safety. So a lot of times parents, or even our parents, didn't realize when they were replicating something that was actually very controlling and very limiting, but it was because they wanted us to be safe. So we might have heard messages like, you know, maybe quiet down or we want to make sure that you get home safely. Like, these kinds of messages that actually made a lot of us feel very controlled or unsafe or, again, like something was wrong with us. And so that's where a lot of the. In our business and in our work, where it shows up for women is even, for instance, when we become mothers. And many of us might feel, oh, I'm now no longer succeeding at my job, or I feel like I'm being pushed out in some way, or I feel like I have to hide the fact that I am a mother. Maybe I have to. I'm trying to come back to work faster than necessary, or I'm, you know, running to the bathroom to pump. All of these things that, you know, hopefully have gotten better over the years. But these are not universal guarantees at different companies. And so a lot of times when women become mothers, they think that, again, they're failing at their jobs, but it's actually systemic to keep women from being able to do all of the things that they want to do if they make decisions to also start families. And we can trace that back to policies where in the US when women were married, they were no longer allowed to work. When women had children, they were no longer allowed to work. A very particular example that I talk about in my first book is that the mother of MLK Jr. Was a teacher, and she had a bachelor's degree, a teaching certificate. This is a black woman in the early 1900s, you know, this incredible feat. And when she got married, there was a law, it was a marriage bar that said that married women could not teach. And so she had to give up her career. She was happy to start her family, and she uses her teaching to really teach her family and her husband, actually. But there's a lot of history there that we could get into. But those kinds of policies were in place for a very long time in the United States. And so we actually still see remnants of that. So that's a perfect example of a system and a law or a policy that is continuing to affect us. But if women are unaware of that history, and instead they think they're just not doing enough, if they feel like they're falling behind, it's actually that they don't have the supports in place and strategically. So there are a lot of different people who do not want us to raise families as well as work outside of the home. And we're seeing a lot of that rhetoric right now. And so my passion there's. I have several of them. One of them is to make sure Women don't think that we are imagining the issues around us, nor that we have done something wrong, but instead that we pay attention to what brought us here. What are the connecting lines to the history of the United States and the systems that we are still very much recovering from? Because our country is really young. 250 years is not that many years. And so, of course, we're still being affected by things that we haven't really called out and paid attention to. A lot of people are completely unaware of the marriage bar, for example.
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B
Wow. I mean, it is wild to think that, you know, I think that nowadays there are so many women that are like, you don't have to choose. Right? You can do both. Right? But, like, that is something that was an actual choice right back then. And so it is wild to see, like, yes, our generation is saying, like, you can do both. But I agree with you. You have to have support. There is no way to do both and do both well without proper support. And that's where so many stigmas come in. That's where women get quiet about the support they have or feel uncomfortable sharing it. You know, it is. It's all set up to keep us insulated in our own little experiences so that the collective doesn't acknowledge the truth behind all of it.
- [11:56]
A
It's just wild. I mean, exactly something you said around the fact that we feel we can't say that we have help or we have support, and we don't realize why. We might feel ashamed of saying something like, oh, my kiddos have a nanny when I am working. You know, a lot of people ask me, how is it that you have three kids under the age of six and you have two books out, you know, that came out in those same years. How did you do that? And I get that the question is really. Because in the US it is a bit of a mystery how we all do it, because these things aren't guaranteed, right? And some other nations, they're kind of written into the system. So you have parental leave or you have child care. When your kids are 2 years old, they all have somewhere to go that is going to take good care of them. But in the US we don't have that. So when other women are asking me that, I understand where the question is coming from. We're all really trying to figure out, how is everybody doing this? Because it seems so difficult to do. And for me, it's really incredibly important to say, I have support to do this. My husband and I have support to do this. I have a wonderful partner, we can afford child care and we have extended family that steps in when we need them to. And also those are the things that we should be advocating for on a national level because we have to get rid of the mystery of it all. Even in my books. I thank our nanny in my acknowledgement sections. I couldn't do this without her. There is no way I'm sitting here typing books and doing my research while my three kids are running around. That would be impossible. And so it's also just time that we speak more about how we're doing this, but asking and advocating for this to be more of a guarantee rather than those of us who have the privilege to afford it.
- [13:51]
B
You know what's funny that just popped into my head is I bet there are very few men out there who are asked that question.
- [13:58]
A
Definitely. I'm used to on the red carpet all the time, you know, female celebrities being asked who's with your kids right now? It's very much the onus is put on us as mothers in heteronormative relationships. And again, that all relates back to these historic definitions of who we're supposed to be and what roles we're supposed to fulfill.
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B
Yes. Oh my goodness. When I think back to when I bought my first little Craigslist camera, I had no clue that it would change my entire life. Like I didn't have this big plan. I just took the first tiny step and that's what the new year is for. A clean slate. A chance to finally start that business. I idea that won't leave you alone. If 2026 is your year to launch, Shopify makes it feel doable. You can sell online or in person and they give you everything you need to get moving. Millions of people have taken this leap from total beginners to well known brands. You can pick from beautiful templates, customize them to fit your style, and use Shopify's built in AI tools to write product descriptions, headlines and even clean up product photos. When you're ready to grow, Shopify grows with you. All from one simple dashboard. In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.comgolddigger. go to shopify.comgolddigger that's shopify.comgolddigger here. Your first this new year with Shopify by your side. My cousin's getting married soon and I haven't been to a wedding since I stopped photographing them seven years ago. We're so excited because we're getting our entire family together and booking a home on Airbnb for the festivities. Coco even asked if she can be the flower girl. So now I need to teach her how weddings actually work. After sending a few options, we found the perfect spot. There's this pool table for my father in law to be a pool shark. A enough room so that we can all actually get decent sleep and plenty of space to make memories together. Where you choose to stay truly has the ability to elevate everything. And it got me thinking about the hosts behind the stay. They make sure the space feels warm and cared for, which makes these special moments even more memorable. And here's something I learned. You don't need to own a vacation property to consider hosting your own home on Airbnb. You can start with the space you already have and that extra income. It can be put towards future travel or a fun splurge item you've been eyeing. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host so power in America has been built around kind of this specific image, right? And for those of us building outside of that mold, what is the most dangerous myth that we have inherited about what it takes to truly lead?
- [16:54]
A
Yeah, power in the US has really been in this first individual kind of stance where one person, you're supposed to take care of yourself, every person for themselves. Usually the saying as every man for themselves, it's this very masculine thing. It's about dominating other people. It's about kind of cutting off your empathy towards others so that you can rise as high as you need to. And the thing that we can shift and should shift is this notion that power belongs to individuals and rather power belongs to all of us. And that in order for us to have more strength, we actually have collective power and we can work together. And women who have ascended through the ranks in business have often been told, you need to fit this traditional notion of power. We need you to be that kind of dominant personality. We need you to stop caring about other people. But then at the same time, if you do that, we're going to say you're too bossy and we're going to critique you for, you know, not again, fitting this role that we've assigned to you as a woman. So it's all going back to that kind of cycle of no matter what you do, you're going to do it incorrectly. But what we actually see succeed the most, really, are the companies where women lead with more of that feminine strength, where they are Thinking about their employees, they are being innovative around these notions of power, where they are considering our interconnectedness to each other. I recently saw something on Instagram about actresses and writers who were on a staff where the head writer was a woman, and they all were able to get home in time for dinner. That there were possibilities where you didn't have to constantly grind and deny your connection to your home or your family. You can still lead. You can still have a successful outcome, whether that's your film or your company, without having to replicate these notions of every person for themselves and dominate, dominate, dominate. And deny your connection to each other, as well as your connection to who you are at home. All of those things have been taught to us, but there are many other ways to exhibit power. And actually, we can go much further when we consider our collective power.
- [19:28]
B
Okay, I love this so much. And I think a lot of people can get confused between, like, masculine and feminine energy that lives in every being, right? And I know, for me, like, my business was born out of straight grit, right? Like hustle. And those first few years, that was, like, the only force I knew. And I think it was the force that was really taught to us, right? Like, just push harder, do more, work harder. It's all gonna come. And I feel like over the last few years, I have learned an entire new way of being and a new way of doing business and a new way of even just being in relationship. Like, one of the things that I consistently say to myself is, I am softening. Like, I am softening as a mother, I am softening as a wife. I'm softening as a boss. And I feel like softness can often be associated maybe with weakness, where hustle can be associated with strategy and different things like that. And it's so fascinating to me because I've also been researching what happens when more money gets in the hands of women. And statistically speaking, it is reinvested into community. Like, it is recirculated into causes and other businesses and mothers and things like that. And so it's interesting because I feel like in my own work, I've been dissecting, like, here's why I want more women to get rich. It's not so that women can hoard personal wealth. It is because I truly believe that when women get into powerful positions and have the opportunity to have choice, the choices they make are different than their counterparts. This is not shaming men. This is just the reality. Data backs this up. And so it's been really interesting for me to reconnect with the cause of, like, this is why I want to liberate women into positions of power and to get wealth into their hands, because the money is going to go somewhere, and I want to get it into the hands of women who will redistribute it. And so it's been interesting, as I've been unpacking, what is my deeper why it is so much more rooted not in women getting wealth so that they can do fancy things. Go on, you do it, you earn it. But also because I truly believe that if we want to change the world, women of power is going to be the force behind it.
- [21:47]
A
Yeah. And I completely agree. And I would say that this notion of what's feminine and what's masculine, so much of it has been just made up. Right. And then we've been socialized. I'm a sociologist, so this is always the mindset that I'm coming from. We were taught these things. It doesn't mean that men can't learn how to be more considerate of community. It's just that for the last 250 years, the messages we've been hearing in our nation have been that men are supposed to dominate and that women are supposed to take care of things at the home. And I feel like I have to dive into the definition that I keep referring back to, because it is the basis of so much of what we're seeing now and relates so beautifully to everything you were just so articulating so well, is that when our Founding fathers won the Revolutionary War, they were actually very insecure that this revolutionary spirit was spreading to other groups that were also subjugated. And they were nervous that they were going to lose power in the nation that they had fought to win. They were the underdogs. Nobody was expecting them to win. Right. This was an incredible feat. And so that was the mindset with which they were kind of setting up who was going to be considered human in the US who was going to have access to resources, who was going to have access to power? And so in the Constitution, they decide that men are the ones who will have power. They say men can own land, men can vote and participate politically, men can be elected, men can represent themselves, and then they completely leave women out of the Constitution. And this was intentional. They did not mean for the word man to mean human. They did not want women to participate politically. Instead, in the letters that they wrote to their daughters and to their wives, they say that women are supposed to be docile, women are supposed to be protected, women should not participate politically. But that women should focus on being able to reproduce the power of men through children, and that that was the role that they should be focused on. But we know from this kind of binary that's problematic and that they're setting up that's really flawed already. They're not including everybody in those two definitions. So they're not thinking about people who are enslaved. In fact, the Constitution has language to protect the institution of slavery. So we know they're not thinking about people who are enslaved. They're not thinking about their indigenous counterparts. They're not thinking even about poor white people. They were very big on them being the elite people that they were speaking to. And they're not thinking about immigrants from that point forward. And so in order to keep this system alive, they are thinking always about how they maintain power in their own hands. And so we then realize now, if that's the system that everything emerged from, then we actually were never really a part of a true democracy where power was vested in all of the people. Because at the beginning, not every person was being included in that. Women were not being included in that. So our democracy was actually what I define as American patriarchy. That's what we've been living in all along. And it's been incredibly harmful, not only for women, it's also been harmful for the groups that were not considered as human beings. And it's also been really harmful even for those who were supposed to be the primary beneficiaries of this, because they had to cut off their notion of their connectedness to other people. They had to deny vulnerability within themselves. And then all the young boys who were taught this same notion then were thinking, it's natural that I only care about myself. It's maybe natural that I am supposed to make decisions for other people. Or if we're talking about relationships with girls and women, they are supposed to listen to me. I'm supposed to have power over them. If these are the messages that we've been taught, then you actually also see the groups that were denied any of that power within this made up system of American patriarchy. They become more focused on collectivity and community. And how can we actually envision something beyond what we're being offered and, and really achieve true democracy? And so that's actually why the groups that were denied power are the ones who can say, let's do this differently, actually, let's care for other people. And so that's what speaks to what you've noticed and what the research is showing us is that girls, women particularly Girls and women of color will spread those resources. They don't think that the way we move forward. Forward is to replicate what we've been doing thus far. Because that's excluded so many people. It's hurt so many people, Even those who have gained a lot of money from it, if they're not giving that money away. There's all this research that points to higher levels of depression or higher levels of drug dependency. It's actually really unnatural to us to only care about ourselves. And so it's then been painted as if this is a man versus woman problem. And that's not true. We actually all have been hurt by a system that really elevated notions of domination over other people.
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B
Wow, that is so beautifully said.
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A
Thank you.
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B
You. Oh, I just. I just love you.
- [27:38]
A
Love you.
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B
So let's talk about your thought of women, especially mothers, and how they have been erased. And when I met you, I got to spend so much time with you without knowing the context of the work you do. And I fell in love with just who you are as a human. And then when I found out the work you do, I was like, dang, it makes sense. And so, so many women listening are building businesses. A lot of them are doing so while raising kids. Again, we've already talked about this. It's like, you know, work like you don't have children, and mother like you don't have a job. Right. It's this dichotomy that we are trying to live through and wondering why we can't do it. And so let's talk about your thought of erasure and also then talk about, like, how can we start to write a different story? What does that look like for us?
- [28:34]
A
Yeah, it's a perfect segue from our last conversation is that in order to make something that is made up seem natural, seem like the divine order, and seem like the only thing that we can choose. And so that we're all protecting this thing that actually is hurting all of us is to erase anything that shows us differently, that shows us that we can choose something else, that shows us we can live differently, that things don't have to be this way. And so that's been very intentional on behalf of those who wanted to protect that social order. It's been very intentional to make sure we don't know what else is available to us. And the way that that shows up in terms of erasure of women and mothers is to keep us from seeing examples of women and mothers who have worked outside of the home and had support around them, had community support around them and were able to be there for their children where it wasn't this notion that they were the only person that was supposed to take care of the child, that they were the person who was supposed to have all of the pressure on their shoulders, but instead that the children that we bring into this world are our community children. Right? We're not actually supposed to be the ones who are just alone in our home without any support around us that is in service of the system, unless in service of that mother and less in service of that child. And then also when we're thinking of the story we're told that men are supposed to be in power and women don't get to have any power. The role of motherhood was presented to us as if it was something we were just supposed to do. And then we were robbed from feeling the power and the capability that comes from this all important role. So that's why women who stay at home with their children, who are doing some of the most important work in our society, were told this role is unproductive. But then women who were wanting to work outside of the home were told, well, now you're not a great mother. You're not spending that much time with your children. So it takes us back to, to we wanted the message to be no matter what women do, they're doing it wrong. They are always kind of the flawed individual. There's always something that they need to fix. I mean, it even comes up in of course, a capitalist society. People telling us to constantly buy things because we're just not good enough as we are. That is the message we've been told in order to maintain this notion of that men are naturally supposed to have more power. So it constantly shows up in mothering where if as soon as you're pregnant, the message we're told is you don't know what you're doing. Somebody else needs to tell you your intuition is wrong. Ask, you know, an authority figure to tell you how to make decisions over your own body. It's very different in other nations. They're hearing very different messages women are hearing. Actually you decide what's going to feel best for you. I mean, even with, I'm not saying that we all need to start drinking while we're pregnant, but like, that's a perfect example in other nations. It's not this rule that everybody's policing that pregnant woman. Instead it's choose what's going to work for you. We trust that you know what your body needs. So that's just One example of a message we hear in the United States and then when it comes to the history of the power of motherhood in the U.S. my first book deals with this a lot, but my second one does as well. But especially my first one. It's about the mothers of MLK Jr, Malcolm X and James Baldwin. Their names were Alberta King, Louise Little and Bertis Baldwin. And all three of them did what their sons became famous for long before their sons were even a thought in their mind. When they were young women, they were activists. Martin Luther King's mom was the daughter of the leaders of Ebenezer Baptist Church. She was taught that her faith was always intertwined with social justice. She participated in marches and in boycotts before her son was even born. But it's almost as if I'm describing the same exact person. And then with Malcolm X's mom, she was this radical activist. She was a part of the Marcus Garvey movement. She believed that you always stand up to anybody who tries to oppress you and that it would be better to die fighting for your freedom than to live in captivity. This is what she then, this passion takes and raises her children with this same mentality. So Malcolm X is just following in her and her husband's footsteps. Then we see that Bertis Baldwin, she was a writer. She believed she could help people through the darkest of times through her writing and through the power of language. And so when her son becomes this famous writer, it's no longer such a surprise. And the way it had been presented to us in history before my book came out in 2021, was that somehow these men had just kind of shown up fully formed with these definitions of freedom and how you transform your nation. Or the second story we were told was that their fathers had taught them everything. Nobody had told us that their mothers were the ones who had inspired this. And that's not to erase the fathers. The fathers also have incredible stories. But the fathers have been studied. And it took until 2021 for me, I was a PhD candidate at the time, to say, but what about the mom? Like, I would like to know their stories. And my theory was not that I was going into it to prove that the mothers were the ones who did it first. My question was simply, who were they? Why haven't they been studied? And there was so little out there about them. You couldn't really Google them. There was nothing. Now you can Google them because I wrote the book about them. But before, they weren't there. It was as if we just didn't care to ask who they were. And every piece of information that I found through my research, through my archival research and interviewing experts on the sons and reading all of the sons works and interviewing the family members was actually that they had done all the things that their sons were known for. And that's what made the erasure that much more angering and also very clearly strategic. It wasn't the sons that erased them. They were telling journalists and scholars, oh, my mom taught me this. There were letters where Malcolm X says, my mom taught me this. James Baldwin saying, ask my mom. This is how this happened. Martin Luther King Jr. And his father, her husband, saying, I couldn't have done this without her. But scholars and historians felt that that didn't fit their notion of who was supposed to be in power and who the heroes are of our stories. And so they kept that out of our record and kept that out of our common knowledge. And so that's where you see how potent erasure is and how strategic it is. And it's why I'm. Another passion of mine is making sure women don't allow that erasure to happen to us. Because if we're taught, hey, you're supposed to be the docile one, you're supposed to be in the background, we're also taught that there's some badge of honor. The more that we keep ourselves in the background, the more that we don't take credit, the more that we don't step up and say, actually, hi, I was here, and it happened because of me. And so it's not about being. You know, I understand the importance of humility for a lot of people, But I do think in our individual journeys, we have to question, why have I been told that I'm supposed to just sit here and pretend I had nothing to do with that? Especially in the lives of our children and also at work. It shows up constantly. I can tell you, with my own work, even with my book coming out in 2021, there are books that come out every year about the three men because we love studying them so much, and that's wonderful. But there are scholars who don't even pick up my book, even though it's a New York Times bestselling book, even though it's a doctoral dissertation and well researched, because they don't want to correct the narrative. They want to keep telling this other story. And I have to continuously step in and say, hello, I'm here. My voice matters, too. So that erasure is historic. It's contemporary. It's happening constantly, constantly in our lives. And when you start to see it, you can't unsee it. And that's what my second book is about, is really identifying why the erasure is happening, but also seeing it in our personal lives, seeing it in our professional lives, seeing it on a national level, because you won't be able to even ignore it anymore. Before you read the book, you might feel like these instances, you're noticing them a little bit, but you don't quite have the language to describe them. You don't understand how they relate to our history in our country. And what I want is for that book to be a tool for us to identify all of the things that are happening so that it's not just existing in our own minds. It's not that we're holding it on our own, but instead, we're demanding change.
- [38:24]
B
Wow. When I heard what you had written about and when I even heard those stories, I was like, we've never heard this like that. I mean, that is crazy. And when you think about if you are consciously parenting your children right, you are teaching them right from wrong, what to fight for, what is worth fighting against. It makes total sense that there were mothers behind these powerful men, but it breaks my heart that they weren't a part of the narrative. So thank you for doing that work. Like, that is so life changing. Like, I just feel like every woman should read and learn that because. Wow. My goodness.
- [39:08]
A
Yeah.
- [39:09]
B
So we've kind of talked about what the status quo is, right? Like, again, it's like we're swimming in the water and we don't even recognize it. And I think it's not just in what we sell, but also in how we lead. And so what do you think is one shift that somebody listening right now could do to move the needle? Like, real structural change, not performative, not performance, but, like, what is something as women that we can start to do to start to move and push the ruler forward?
- [39:39]
A
There are levels to it, and I think, you know, we can get really overwhelmed because there's so much that's gonna need to change. But I will say, I think it's these small shifts. It's not actually gonna be this huge overhaul of everything. Where, you know, I have my master's is in gender studies. And so there's a lot of gender theory where feminists are like, just get rid of marriage, get rid of mothering. I just get rid of it all and start over. I don't actually think that that's necessary. For instance, I live a pretty traditional life. Like, I Married my college sweetheart. We have three kids together. And so I'm just saying it's just that we don't all have to do that. So I'm advocating for us to have these choices where we don't have to replicate this notion of American patriarchy in our lives. We don't have to replicate it on an individual level, nor in our relationships, nor in our parenting, nor in our communities, nor do we have to keep voting for it. So I will talk about those different layers because it's just step by step. If we're feeling overwhelmed, take it step by step. And also know that I think we're all a part of a larger team and we each have different roles to play. So you don't have to solve the whole thing. We just need everybody to kind of play their role. And playing that role also keeps us all happier. Right. If we're active in change, we become less overwhelmed by the magnitude of it. And so on the individual level, the thing we were just talking about asking ourselves, what are these messages that I have been taught and why? And do I believe that I'm supposed to be quiet? Do I believe that I'm supposed to be controlled in some way? Do I believe that I am supposed to be dominant? That's another question for any listeners. Maybe they've been taught I'm supposed to dominate. I'm supposed to take over. I'm supposed to take control. So asking those questions and why we've been taught those things so we can start shifting and thinking, actually, every individual has power. Every individual's voice should be heard, including my own, and I should be considerate of others. So that's the first layer of that kind of individual healing work. Work. The second level is in our relationships, in our romantic relationships, in our friendships, in our relationships with our children and our relationships with our parents, have we been taught to replicate a notion of somebody supposed to dominate and somebody's supposed to be dominated? This actually happens a lot in parenting, where we think we're supposed to kind of tell our kids how they're supposed to live and what they're supposed to do and what they're supposed to wear and how they're supposed to. Supposed to act, rather than asking them, who are you? Show me, you know, what world you've brought to us and how you see things, because you don't have to fit these notions. Actually, we are in this partnership together, right? And of course, we protect our children. Of course we are able to hold their emotions. We're not supposed to be in A pure relationship with them, but we're not supposed to be in a dominant relationship with them either. And in our relationships, our romantic relationships, we often find ourselves in this tug of war of somebody supposed to dominate, that is, messages that we've heard outside of that relationship. And you actually can have some really beautiful healing moments if you start to question why we've been taught these things and actually think about how can we do this differently, where we each are heard and we each can have this equitable relationship. The third level of that is on our community level. Change in the US has happened not because it first started at a national level, but because we saw models of how things could be different on a community level. So if you see something happening, for instance, somebody's hungry in your community, we should feed them. If there's somebody who needs housing, we can house them. You can start non profits or you can offer this to a neighbor. If there's mothers in your community who are struggling with childcare, can you think about how you might be able to support them? How beautiful would that be if on one street everybody knows, oh, these are our kids and we're going to take care of them together. These are things that are all really possible, actually. And so when we notice the needs, we can do something about them in our communities. And that goes such a long way. Even a neighbor saying to another, I can watch your kiddo, like, I would love to support you in this, or, you know, just little moments where we are disrupting that notion that it's every person for themselves, and instead we are here to help each other. That's when you see change start to happen on a national level, because we've modeled it. And so, for example, with New Mexico right now, there's been many voices saying, we need child care for all for many, many, many years. And New Mexico just became the first state to offer that across the state. So what we'll see is probably we might now see it on a national level in the next several years, because it always starts at this scale and we just have to continue to grow it. And so then at a national level, the question then becomes, how do we vote to make those things available to all of us across the board? And we kind of talked about that at the beginning as well. What do we want to see change and what are we willing to advocate for? Maybe we want to run for office. You know, everybody can run for office. It's not something that, like, again, we've been taught there's certain people that are supposed to run and that they're the leaders, and we're going to kind of just leave it that way. And the rest of us are going to sit here and just talk about it. No, you can just run, whether it's for your school board or any kind of other local office, city council, and you can be the one who introduces that policy. The other thing is, if you're a storyteller, the thing that I obviously do is to help people see that we don't have to stay stuck here. I want us to be able to imagine more and envision more, and hopefully, people take those stories and they turn it into their role on this larger team. And then they start to see we can be creative, we can be imaginative. We are nowhere close to how great we can be as a nation, and we're a great nation. There's a lot of things for us to be proud of. We've come a long way, but it's not been. Because those who were in power suddenly decided, oh, today. Today's the day. I'm gonna make this easier for everybody else, and I'm gonna give rights away. No, it came because of this larger team of people all playing their role, saying, we need more, not only for ourselves, but for each other.
- [46:29]
B
I love the levels because I feel like people have almost been paralyzed into feeling like they can't do anything right. Like, it's. It's almost like this onslaught of headlines and things like that can almost just numb you to the point of not taking action. And recently we did a food drive at my daughter's school that I coordinated, and I emailed the head of the school, and I said, hey, you do not have to do anything but just give me permission to run with this. I will take care of everything. And then we did a donor match for the soup kitchen, where I was like, I will personally match all donations. We raised more money in 48 hours than they've seen, like, personally fundraised. Then I applied to be on the board of the soup kitchen because I'm a volunteer there. I'm a donor there. They said, will you come on the board? I said, I've never done it. Let's go. And so it's interesting because I feel like when I think about my Grandpa, who is 90, When I think about the level of news that they received in their generation, the amount of news that we receive in an hour is like, what they would receive in an entire month, maybe even a year year. And so it can often trick us into thinking, who am I? And I believe that if we start at the community level, if you start at the people you cross on the street, if you start with the people you see at school, drop off your neighbors, the elderly, if you start with the disabled, if you start. If you start where your feet are planted and look at a radius and just say, how can I help? Who can I help? I think that is going to change the world. And it's just so interesting because we say we want the village, right? It's like it takes a village and we look around and there is no village. But what if we start building the villages, right? Like, what if we actually start getting in our communities and in community with one another? I think that is the movement. I think that is the move. I think that is how women get into positions of leadership to help impact the change. But I also think that that's how we wake up with purpose, knowing that we're making a difference. Not on a global scale, sure, if you can do that, awesome. But if you can just impact your neighbor or the waitress or the person who is struggling, oh, my gosh, life is so much more rich for everybody. And so it's just. I love those levels because I think we've started at the top and it's just made us feel like we can't do anything. And when we start at the bottom, there is so much room to move.
- [49:07]
A
Exactly. And those are the moments that really move us as a country, you know, and why I'm so much more focused on not blaming each other. Right. In this contemporary moment, but more so, let's just all focus our attention on the original system in 1776, because we're not each other's enemy, in fact. And I think for me, it's because I grew up in so many different places. I moved from country to country abroad growing up. And then when I came back to the state states, I lived in Laramie, Wyoming, for four years. I lived in Indiana for three years. And I've seen so many different people. And the beauty of our differences is so wonderful. And really, we agree on a lot more things than we disagree on. But this system, again, in order to maintain itself and those who want to maintain it, they teach us to fear each other. They teach us to see each other as enemies rather than individuals who are living together, who can hear each other, who can heal together, who can say, hey, we've had some really horrible things happen in our history, and how do we move forward together versus let's deny any of that pain, or let me deny that you're hurting or you're community is hurting and instead say, let's come together and see each other. And it starts in those moments, in those community moments where, you know, for me, again, living in somewhere like Laramie, Wyoming for four years, of course I was one of the only black people there. But the people that I met, many of them would say I was like a second daughter to them. Some of them are, some still of my, some of my best friends. Even though I then left and, you know, continued moving because my parents were very nomadic. Three of them were in my wedding. Like, these are the relationships, all of the relationships that I've had throughout my lives have shaped me and it's helped me to see, okay, actually we are very different from each other, but those differences are really beautiful and wonderful and we shouldn't be fearful of them. And I've noticed then the strategy of keeping us from seeing each other.
- [51:18]
B
Yes.
- [51:19]
A
And really just celebrating each other and learning from each other's differences. And so I completely agree with you. All those examples that you gave are so beautiful. And they made me think of how your kids are watching that and how they then become more hopeful about the world and the nation that they're living in. Because I completely agree, we're exposed to so much more than we ever were before. And our bodies are not naturally supposed to be exposed to this. Especially in these like tiny 90 second videos where we're just overwhelmed by pain. But with that awareness, it actually should push us to say, okay, as human beings, we really need to help each other out. Because I'm seeing now more pain than I was ever aware of. So what can I do? And for anybody listening again who still feels overwhelmed by that, I can tell you and Jenna can say the way you know, you already told us with your examples, you become so much more hopeful, so much more inspired when you do something, when you help someone, when you stay activated. Because if you don't, if you say I'm just gonna, all I can do is see this and I need to cut myself off from it or I'm no longer going to look at the news and I'm just going to take care of myself. You are actually causing yourself more pain. You have to be involved in some way, shape or form. You just have to decide what that's going to be.
- [52:54]
B
Oh, Amen. Amen. Where can everybody find you, connect with you, read your books, tell us about your latest book, Give us all the places.
- [53:05]
A
Thank you so much. Everything is my name. So anamalaikatubs.com is my website. You can reach out to me there and namalikatubs on Instagram. My first book is called the Three Mothers and you can buy it anywhere you love to buy books. I always love to support independent stores of course, so bookshop.org is wonderful and my second book came out in May. It's called what American Patriarchy Has Hidden From Us and I would really appreciate if you buy both books and give me a follow on Instagram. I'm so so so grateful to have been here with you.
- [53:39]
B
Thank you so much. This was such a treat and I just have loved learning about you and your story and the stories you tell. Oh man, I love Ana. She is just an incredible human being and getting to spend days with her and just learn about her beyond the work she did was such a gift. I knew I wanted to have her on this show, but when I really found out what she wrote about and the stories she tells, it's absolutely incredible. And I think it's something that we need to inspect, something that we need to consider, something that we need to learn about and reflect upon in our own lives, but also in the history that we've been taught. I love today's episode. I hope you loved it too. Please go support Ana, check out her books. Grab them, teach your children about them. And thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you know someone who would benefit from this conversation, be a great friend and send it their way. And of course, until next time, Gold Diggers Keep on digging your biggest goals thanks for listening to the Gold Digger podcast. I hope today left you inspired and equipped with something you can put into action as you build a business that truly supports your life. If this episode resonated with you, here's how you can help this show reach even more entrepreneurs. Hit follow. Share it with a friend who's building something meaningful, and if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. Those reviews help other listeners discover these conversations when they need them the most. This show has become so much more than I ever imagined, and it's because of listeners like you who show up and share you are helping build something that will inspire entrepreneurs for years to come. For show notes, links and resources, head to gold diggerpodcast.com keep digging your biggest goals. The world needs what you're building.