Podcast Summary: The Godel Pod – Kind vs Nice With Damien Ryan

Podcast: The Godel Pod
Host: Michael Hammond (Godel Technologies)
Guest: Damien Ryan (Managing Director, Comore/Kova)
Date: July 5, 2023
Main Theme:
A candid conversation about the psychology of software development—exploring career progression, team dynamics, remote work, and the crucial difference between being “kind” and “nice” in building impactful teams.

Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Hammond sits down with Damien Ryan to dive deep into the psychology of software development. Drawing on Damien’s wide-ranging career—from the “Stone Ages” of software through the rise of Agile, DevOps, and modern team structures—this discussion unpacks the persistent role of psychology in team and individual success. Central to the conversation is the distinction between being "kind" and being "nice," the impact of remote work on psychological safety, and practical advice for fostering healthier, more productive tech cultures.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Damien’s Entry into Software Development

• Early Passion: Damien’s journey began with a love for science and video games. He originally envisioned a career in science, but was drawn to computer science due to its practical, tangible feedback.
  • “I could actually, you know, sit down at a machine, type something in and it did exactly what I wanted, whether it was right or not.” (02:52)
• First Jobs: Launched his career during the internet “bubble” in the late 90s, writing database queries before moving into more complex distributed systems work at Iona.

2. Changes in Development Practices Over Decades

• Technical Evolution:
  • Early days: “We built it on a single machine, zipped the files up, and emailed those files over to a customer who had to unzip them on their end…” (05:22)
  • Agile and XP: Encountered Kent Beck and the concept of “Extreme Programming” (XP)—a revelation that development should center on what customers want.
  • Rise of Automation: Shift from manual builds/installers to automated tools and DevOps, seeing software move from a “personal” to a “team sport.” (06:29–12:19)
• Team Dynamics:
  • “You’re never taught soft skills growing up... What’s really hard to learn is how do you have a conversation without knowing someone or how do you foster a sense of collaboration and safety in a team?” (13:56)

3. The "Kind vs Nice" Framework

• Defining the Terms:
  • Nice: Suppressing conflict to keep the peace, being superficially agreeable.
  • Kind: Actively helping colleagues be their best, including giving tough feedback for their benefit but in a humane, constructive way.
  • “Nice is kind of pushing things down just to get along. You might feel conflict…but you don't want to be mean.” (16:30)
  • “It's kinder to have a difficult conversation and, you know, get that out in the open…” (17:19)
• Why it Matters:
  • Kindness creates growth and trust; niceness can stifle progress and hinder improvement.

4. The Impact of Remote and Hybrid Work

• Personal Reflection:
  • “Lockdown absolutely broke me... I thought I would love being locked in the house... It took two weeks before I was almost screaming wanting to go back into an office.” (19:09)
  • Discovery of extroversion and the hard limits of virtual communication.
• Remote Work Realities:
  • Loss of “three-dimensional” interactions led to a “desert of empathy” and affected team safety and trust.
  • “While the productivity of individuals went up... the effectiveness of a team went down because we lost that psychological safety.” (21:52)

5. Essential Psychological Traits for Developers

• Curiosity: The single most important trait for knowledge work; being curious about customer problems, system integration, and broader impacts.
  • “Curiosity is your biggest friend. Because... you need to be curious about the customer problem, what they actually want to be fixed... think wider about the issues…” (26:38)
• Empathy and Communication:
  • True listening, open communication, and the willingness to say “I don’t understand”—critical for collaboration.
  • “None of us actually really listens when I’m talking… you’re sitting thinking, ‘What’s the next question?’... Which means that we’re either waiting to knock down a point or… we’re just not present.” (51:34)

6. Leadership, Growth, and Scaling Teams

• Managing at Scale:
  • Insights from working at Motorola, where understanding organizational psychology became crucial (“400 people... very hard for any one person to know what any one other person does.”). (32:04)
  • The importance of steering clear of process-for-process-sake, especially with methodologies like Scrum.
• Team Topologies:
  • How structuring teams around clear boundaries (with “Team APIs”) fosters trust, communication, and healthy “silos.”
  • “Empowerment on its own can create chaos… boundaries are super, super empowering.” (46:14)

7. Spreading Psychological Understanding in Tech

• Empathy in the Workplace:
  • “There’s nothing actually special about software developers as people. You understand psychology of the individual…” (48:04)
• Avoiding Stereotypes:
  • Developers are like anyone: motivated by problem-solving but susceptible to over-fixation, burnout, and imposter syndrome.
• Practical Advice:
  • Foster environments where asking questions is encouraged and rewarded.
  • Balance technical excellence with strong communication and collaboration skills.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It's kinder to have a difficult conversation and, you know, get that out in the open or kind of difficult feedback, but… it's not cruel to be kind. It's doing it in this human manner.” (17:19, Damien Ryan)
• “Meetings were very much literally 2D… we switched into that mode without knowing it. So… there was a, almost like a desert of empathy at the time where, yeah, we were all a little bit more ratty with each other.” (20:16 & 21:52, Damien)
• “Curiosity is your biggest friend. Because... the more curious you are at the start, the less likely that wrong is going to be.” (26:38 & 27:48, Damien)
• “If you think about the scales of people… trying to get that entire system in your head is very hard. And… learning about development as actually as a psychology game as opposed to building.” (32:04 & 32:36, Damien)
• “Boundaries are super, super empowering. Because the constraints are what allow you then to go off and do whatever you need to do within those boundaries.” (46:14, Damien)
• “There's nothing actually special about software developers as people. You understand psychology of the individual…” (48:04, Damien)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Damien’s Early Career and Education – 01:40–04:19
• First Encounters with Agile/XP – 06:45–07:46
• Transition to DevOps and Automation – 10:10–12:19
• Team Psychology: Kind vs Nice – 15:46–18:02
• Remote Work and its Psychological Impacts – 19:09–24:55
• Key Traits for Developers (Curiosity, Empathy) – 26:13–28:27
• Scaling Teams and Team Topologies – 42:41–46:45
• The Role of Empathy in Tech Leadership – 54:56–56:08

Conclusion

Damien’s Final Words:
“This world is very tough, particularly now… The important thing is… being kind to each other. It's difficult. And when times are difficult, you need to remember that there is only kindness… being kind to myself is also just as important.” (57:20)

Takeaway

• True team effectiveness is rooted in psychological safety, honest feedback, and fostering curiosity.
• Choose kindness—not just politeness—especially in challenging times.
• Structure and boundaries empower rather than restrict teams.
• Great software is built by humans first—understanding, honest, and collaborative ones.

For more on team psychology and practical leadership in software development, Damien encourages listeners to reach out or explore resources like “Team Topologies.”