Yascha Mounk and Musa Al-Gharbi discuss why so many members of elite groups like to pretend they’re oppressed.

Musa al-Gharbi is an assistant professor in the School of Communication and Journalism at Stony Brook University. His most recent book is We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite.

In this week's conversation, Yascha Mounk and Musa Al-Gharbi discuss the tendency of certain elite groups to lay claim to marginalized identities as a form of symbolic capital; the challenges posed by "asymmetric multiculturalism," in which we encourage certain groups to organize along identitarian lines while discouraging others from doing the same; and how we can apply greater consistency to our analysis of social dynamics.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarit y .

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Musa Al-Gharbi on Why We Have Never Been Woke