Yascha Mounk and Norbert Röttgen discuss the war in Ukraine and Germany’s political, economic, and security crisis.

Norbert Röttgen is a senior leader of the Christian Democratic Union. A former cabinet minister, he was chair of the Bundestag’s Foreign Affairs Committee from 2014 to 2021. Röttgen is the author ofDemocracy and War: Politics and Identity in a Time of Global Threats.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Norbert Röttgen discuss the insufficiency of Germany’s support of Ukraine (and theZeitenwende that wasn’t); the nascent pro-Russian movement gaining strength on the margins of German politics; and whether the path to an independent and secure Europe runs through Germany.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarit y .

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