William Deresiewicz is an American author, essayist, and critic. He taught English at Yale University from 1998 to 2008. He is the author, among other books, of Excellent Sheep: The Miseducation of the American Elite and the Way to a Meaningful Life.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and William Deresiewicz discuss how the intensely meritocratic nature of elite universities prioritizes striving over deep learning; the instrumentalization of traditional pursuits to the detriment of mastery; and how broader cultural transformations frustrate deep immersion in art, friendship, and learning.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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William Deresiewicz on the “Excellent Sheep” of the American Elite