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The Good Ship Illustration
Anna Mac on finding her creative voice (after years designing for retail)
00:33:59
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- [00:24]
A
Today we're interviewing a good shipper, Anna Mack. And Anna is an illustrator who works from her home studio in Perthshire, Scotland. She has a background in fine art and printmaking and spent several years creating design led product collections for the retail market. I will grill her about that in this interview for you. Client commissions included heritage retailers and international buyers and her work is sold in shops and galleries in the UK and abroad. Anna combines printmaking techniques, drawing and collage to produce her work with a focus on children's illustration. She loves to work with Lionel and she uses this approach to create prints and book covers. All the links to Anna's work, if you want to see more, are in the show notes. And also just wanted to let you know that our flagship course, our first ever course that we made, we're about to launch a new shiny live round. There's going to be eight months of live calls, one live call per month. The 19th of February is our first live call, so if you jump in before then, you can come along to that live call, but there will be one a month after that. Be lovely to see you there. Okay, on with the interview. So, looking forward to this chat. I feel like I know you a bit from the good ship. I've seen your face, you've been at art club and you've popped up here and there, but it's so good if you could introduce yourself for listeners who are new to you and your work.
- [01:39]
B
So I'm an artist, printmaker, illustrator, I call myself a writer, but I'm based in Scotland, so I'm in a town that's about an hour from Edinburgh and Glasgow and I work from my home studio and I have two kids, twins, that are teenagers. And yeah, so just busy. And that's me, I think.
- [02:04]
A
Brilliant. The main reason that I dragged you on to the podcast here today was to talk about finding your creative voice and flying your freak flag. Yeah, because I put a shout out and you were one of the brave people that raised your hand and I was like, yes, will you speak to Anna? How has it been for you, finding your creative voice? What's that journey been like? What's your creative career looked like so far?
- [02:27]
B
Okay. I took the scenic route, if I'm honest. And so basically, as many people say, like, loved, loved art, was into drawing and that is from young age. But my mum was an art teacher and then I had it in my head like, she's the artist, so I can't be an artist. It just didn't occur to me that I could Be an artist too. And I think that if someone had said to me, go to art school, I would have absolutely jumped at the chance. But it didn't quite happen. And so I ended up going and studying social work and becoming a social worker and working with children, families and things like that. Then I knew this was like an. An opportunity to dig into my creativity. And so I kind of did some online courses and things like that back then and just felt like there was no way back. I was just totally in love with it all. Although I was like doing things and trying to find my voice and things like that, I was also maybe kind of moving. I was doing landscapes and things like that and wasn't really sure of direction. Anyway, came back to Scotland, studied printmaking in Edinburgh and totally loved that and started to create products, collections, so designing for products for the retail market. And so I did that for quite a long time.
- [03:57]
A
I'd love to know what kind of products were you designing for retail market? What does that involve?
- [04:02]
B
Yeah, so it was things like wares and textiles.
- [04:08]
A
So was it like surface pattern stuff or was it more.
- [04:11]
B
Yes. So I was doing some kind of repeat patterns and then I was creating characters. A lot of it still had a kind of storytelling. All of my work up to that point had a kind of storytelling sort of element to it. I had different collections and it was for the Scottish market in the main. And I felt quite strongly that there was quite a strong kind of twee vibe to a lot of products and things like that within Scotland. And so I was quite keen on creating something that was a little bit more edgy or a little bit more design. That's what I would call it is design LED and very characters and things as well. Yeah.
- [04:49]
A
Did you find it like quite a heavy influence from Sweden, from your time living there? Because I know their stuff's a bit more graphic and cool.
- [04:56]
B
Like when I was in Sweden, I absolutely fell in love with the sort of mid century ceramics, textiles, all of that. And Lisa Larson who created like amazing textile kind of characters. There were a lot of characters within those designs and a lot of simple lines and very kind of bold, graphic kind of look as well. Yeah. So that was hugely inspiring to me and I think that's why I love the printmaking so much as well. And I worked in mainly lino print, so it was really bold, graphic lines that I would work in.
- [05:34]
A
That's so cool. And I'm sorry I got excited and interrupted you, but you said you got to 2020 and lockdown changed everything. What happened then?
- [05:41]
B
It did. So I was having orders from lot places because as they established myself, working, going to trade shows and then lockdown, obviously all the orders tended to dry up because all the retailers were realizing what was happening at the same time. My children were in primary school and they were needing help, their homework and things like that. And so I was helping them and I was connecting how much I'd fallen in love with not just art, but I used to love writing as well. And so those two things. And I started thinking about picture books as a sort of like a direction to go. And I think at the same time I was still not totally sure of my voice. And I started to go more onto Instagram and I think I did 100 day project, which is. Was such a brilliant thing to just get me creating every day and not overthinking things. And I think that at that same time I must have connected with yourselves, with the art club. That was brilliant as well. And then heard about fly your freak flag and I was just like, no, that is absolutely perfect for me. I was just really excited at the prospect of doing something where you have a bit of space to really explore your own voice.
- [06:59]
A
Yeah, that's so good to hear. And I think it's extra fascinating when somebody's had a creative career and has had success and is creating work. But so many people in that position still don't feel like they've really found their voice. Like they've maybe not had space. I think that can come with orders and clients and customers. If something's working, you just kind of get stuck in that, okay, this is working. Carry on doing it. I don't want to change anything or rock the boat.
- [07:23]
B
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think that often it can also be a focus on the outcome. You're focused on outcome, you're focused on making money. And of course the reality is that we all need to do that, but at the same time, I think it is important to allow space for exploration and play as well.
- [07:45]
A
Yeah, playing is such a huge part of it, isn't it? When we first made the find your creative voice fly your freak flag course, creating the permission slip to play was something we got so excited about. So. Yeah. How has that been like for you? What's that looked like?
- [07:59]
B
Yeah, I think that whole thing of going back to almost childhood and feeling like my mum was the artist and it couldn't be for me there was also that element of permission to just be able to just explore this and really like it was a really big turning point for me, honestly. Yeah, I really kind of got stuck into the course and just remembered that initial bit of the. Giving myself permission and giving myself the space to just, yeah, play with materials, explore, experiment, and then try and figure out a way back from that as well. So, like, you're doing all of those things, but then what is your voice? And I think it's that sort of also learning to listen to what's exciting to you. And I think that the course really touched on that quite a bit as well, of leaning into your taste. What we were saying before about being in Sweden, my house was full of things that I had chosen and totally love, but hadn't even connected the dots. That was. That's me, that's who I am. So funny that I never connected that up, really. But it was just like, again, another sort of like penny drop moment to be able to like, just look about my own environment that I had created in terms of, like, how I live and where I live and what I surround myself with.
- [09:23]
A
Yeah. And that's the thing, isn't it? I think we're so close to our own work and we're so close to our own house and we're in our own environment, we don't even see the. Our creativity is like leaking out into it. And we're not recording a video, sadly. But I will tell you, listener behind Anna is a gorgeous, like, teal background and there's some amazing graphic that kind of looks a little bit Swedish. That Victoriana wall. Like the red dude.
- [09:47]
B
Yeah, that's a print maker that I discovered on Instagram and it's called Boogie Nights. And yeah, it's rather fabulous.
- [09:55]
A
There's like a little splash of yellow on the wall as well. So I can see, even just from this chat, like, your creative voice and your freak flag, I should be able to say that by now. It's been six years. Your freak flag is flapping. Regardless whether you like it or not. It's brilliant.
- [10:10]
B
Do you know, I think it is that it is about learning to live it, but also connecting those bits up. And as I say, I wasn't really connecting that up. And then when I started to look at what I surround myself with and realizing actually those ceramics that I love from Sweden and those that print work that I've chosen to put on my wall or whatever it is, that's your. That's also. That's your taste. And I think it's just about connecting to yourself. Do you know? And I think when you're quite a sensitive person you can be listening to everybody else, but. And everyone else's voices. And that was a big part of it for me as well. I think that permission to play as well is just. You're, you know, I would almost be always asking other people, what do you think? And just feeling a sort of not sure of myself. And I think that this course really put me on that journey to be able to trust myself and develop a critical eye that I can trust from the beginning, from the blank page to the end, without needing somebody else to chip in.
- [11:20]
A
Yeah, that makes me so happy to hear as well, because one of our big goals was to encourage people to have confidence in their own work. And yeah, portfolio reviews are lovely and brilliant and if you get somebody's eyeballs on your work at the right time, it can be transformative. But. And the power of just having confidence in your own stuff anyway and almost being like, it doesn't matter what you think, because I like my work work. And that's really all that matters because other people's perspectives are so subjective, isn't it? Like, I've had portfolio reviews where the feedback was use less brown. And that is helpful, but also I need to know that I don't know. Yeah, it's music to my ears to hear. That's kind of what you got out of it.
- [12:02]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I think it is subjective and I think still in the journey that I'm in now, when you're not getting anywhere with competitions and things like that, it is tough because am I getting this right? But I think it's also about learning that it isn't a right and wrong. It is subjective. It is important to keep seeking feedback, but from the right people. So I was asking it from members of my family that didn't really have a scooby about R at all. Do you know what I mean? So I think it's important to realize that, yes, absolutely, feedback is a really important thing in terms of growth and development. And I've definitely sought that out via portfolio reviews. And I was fortunate enough to go to the Cambridge Summer school where I was on the advanced track with Pam and different people giving me amazing feedback. And I think it is important to be able to hear that and grow from that. But yeah, just be careful who you're giving the power to in terms of that feedback.
- [13:03]
A
Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I know it's been six years now since. Did you take the course in 2020? You must be one of the first ones then. Amazing. So how has life and work and Creativity looked since then. What's it been like for you?
- [13:20]
B
Yeah, I continued to license for products and things like that and I now have an agent. And because I'm quite focused on children's books, I have continued to write Dummies and these are getting kind of submitted and I have had some interest from publishers. So I'm still on that journ journey. But I think doing the picture book course was really helpful for that as well. And I do think I would benefit from doing the business course. I haven't actually taken the plunge with that, but I think I need to probably do that as well. But yeah, it's also about learning to balance. I have quite a lot of responsibilities. I also work as a sleep counselor part time. And you're balancing that kind of family life and older family that maybe need support and things like that as well. It's about kind of carving out the time as well, you know.
- [14:16]
A
Yeah, you've got life as well. That's the thing is that life does keep happening.
- [14:21]
B
Yeah, no, completely.
- [14:23]
A
You said sleep counselor. Is that like baby sleep or.
- [14:27]
B
Yeah, it's from 18 months up to 18 years supporting families with sleep issues.
- [14:34]
A
That's so interesting.
- [14:36]
B
Which is really good. And actually I developed a sort of visual timetable from our organization as well. Just as so kids can color in the different tiles and things and they can create their own little time for bedtime and things like that.
- [14:52]
A
I love that. I feel like sleep impacts so much of life as well. It's so important. Got newborn babies and things and that also trying to build their career and find their creative voice and you want to be like, it's okay, but now is not the best time and it doesn't matter. Not a huge rush. Wait till you're getting better sleep. I know you weren't talking about sleep, but that just reminded me, like about life.
- [15:13]
B
No, I think completely. And I think we can give ourselves a really hard time. And obviously we're at the beginning of the year and it's about setting the goals and all of that. And I think sometimes we can be like setting ourselves up to fail as well, when we do have a lot of responsibilities and things like that, where you feel like this has to be done. And actually sometimes, yeah, sometimes you do just have to go, okay, I just need to take the foot off the pedal a little bit and give myself a break. For me this year, it's thinking about all the things that I want to do creatively, but also making space even to do creative personal projects as well. But creative things aren't actually to do with illustration. I don't know. Like, I love felting. I find it so therapeutic. Just a needle and like, I'll stick some woolly jumpers in the wash and. And then felt onto them and stuff. And I was doing those at Christmas time and I realized, you know, this, I need this. I need something else that is just something that's not for anything. It's just pure. Just sitting in front of telly belting.
- [16:27]
A
Yes, absolutely. And that was one of my things, because I'm also guilty of setting lots of goals and taking on too many things and saying yes to everything. And in December, I started knitting again. And that has been so good because I can listen to the telly and. Or be chatting to somebody or make sure the child's not in the fire, but also be knitting something and having a good time. And then at the end you get a thing. I don't know if you feel that with knitting. Like, it feels a little. It takes the productive box. Scratches that itch because I'm making something. But it's not for money and it's not for everybody. Look what I did. Although I did post about it on Instagram. But that's. It's just a really nice thing to have a hobby and it be a little bit creative.
- [17:11]
B
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. I think it's maybe important to do that. And actually it puts me in mind of one of the things I was listening to recently was Rick Rubin. Do you know the Creative Act?
- [17:24]
A
Yeah, I've got that book as well.
- [17:26]
B
Well, I've got it on audio and it's brilliant because it's on audio. And I've listened to it like several times because I just absolutely love it. What it always reminds me, and it's something I keep forgetting somehow is again, similar to the message that you guys have put in the fry fly. Not fry fly, freak flag.
- [17:46]
A
Something about freak flag.
- [17:47]
B
Let's just call it freak flag. Yeah, it is a tongue twister. I have to say.
- [17:51]
A
It really is.
- [17:53]
B
Is the sort of being in process piece. Like, I don't know why I forget that as much as I do. It's, oh, now I've got to get there, got to get there. And you can do that with your Instagram prompts and all the different deadlines that you can create and competitions that you can create or there's a commission or whatever it is where you've got those deadlines and it's about the outcome. And he's very much about being in process but also, like, creativity is about a way of living, it's a way of being. And I think. And it makes sense that in your spare time you're doing something that also has some. Some kind of creative output as well. And it also makes sense that you think about what you have in your home, what you wear, because it's all part of the same thing, isn't it?
- [18:40]
A
Yeah. It's all connected. It's all even in like the colours that you're drawn to and that you surround yourself with. I love that Tania's got a bit in the course about looking in wardrobe as a starting point. And then it's like there's your pre made color palette that you didn't even.
- [18:56]
B
Yes.
- [18:56]
A
Really notice that you were choosing. But when you look, it's like, oh, yeah, there's all my favorite colors and they keep coming up in again.
- [19:02]
B
I know. It's like your subconscious mind is actually just doing all the bits. You just have to notice it.
- [19:09]
A
Yeah, yeah. We were talking about Pinterest the other night and I don't know. Do you use Pinterest?
- [19:14]
B
Yeah, I do. Yeah.
- [19:15]
A
Because there's something about it. The algorithm, I feel like on Pinterest is so good. And when you go on the, like, explore pages, when you land, there's so many things and you're just like, oh, I like all these things so much. And it's. I think the more you can get that feeling into your real life.
- [19:31]
B
Yeah.
- [19:31]
A
Even if it's not your actual work, just the things around you, I feel like your happiness levels go up because you're surrounded by things that just make your brain light up.
- [19:40]
B
Totally. Yeah, I totally. In fact, I wrote. So instead of writing New Year's resolutions this year, I wrote myself a sort of personal manifesto. Decided these are the things that I, you know, because every time I do New Year's resolutions, it's come February, you've forgotten all about them. But I decided to almost illustrate this personal manifesto where it was just like, I promise this is the way I want to live and these are the things I want to try and do or be. And one of them was about again, like filling your soul up with the things that you love and art, music, and like pouring all that in and then trusting that you as the person, the vessel that you then your output has reflects some of that. Does that make sense?
- [20:37]
A
100%. Yeah. I think it's like that's one of the side effects, isn't it? Earlier we touched on when you're finding your creative Voice, sometimes it's good to separate it from making money because it's a totally separate endeavor. However, one of the side effects of flying your freak flag and finding your creative voice is that the work you get or the work you attract tends to be much more in tune with the stuff you love doing. And I wonder, have you experienced that? Have you found that the work you're doing, since you've done some creative voice finding work, does it feel more aligned to what you really want to do or that you get really excited about?
- [21:14]
B
I think when you're saying that, it's. I think before we were talking about learning to trust yourself and that critical eye and things like that. And I think for me, it's like now when I create work, it's actually listening to your gut and really tuning in with, what do you. Is this exciting? Am I excited by this? Or there's times when I start getting a bit flat and a bit bored and I can feel a bit resistance. And then I think maybe it's just not going in the direction I want it to go in. Maybe that's why I'm feeling like this. And so then it's okay. Maybe you just needed to put some red in there and then you're going to feel happy again. I think absolutely. I feel like, in terms of voice, that I'm much more connected to myself and connected to what I feel excited about. And I also actually find journaling a really big help with that because I am someone that can disconnect a little bit. And. And journaling is a great way of almost bringing it back to me rather than shutting out all the other voices that are going on. Yeah.
- [22:20]
A
That is so important, isn't it? Because the world is so noisy, and it was noisy anyway, but I feel like with social media, it's extra noisy. And as soon as you open your phone, you're just, like, stepping into a fast stream of other people's thoughts and other people's ideas. And so you have that time to not completely close off, but just listen to your own brain and journal and be like, what do I think about this?
- [22:42]
B
What's going on for me here? So powerful. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think it's really important. For me, it has become, like, part of my practice to do that, to sort of journal. And I've got this little peg doll from when I was a kid, and I keep it in a jar. And part of the thing of my manifesto was, have a team meeting with your peg doll. And I also made a doll of my younger Self. Does this sound really sad? Now? I made a doll myself, like when I was younger, because again, it was that trying to connect self piece. And so now I have team meetings where I'm journaling and I've got Peg doll there and I've got younger Anna and have a bit of a chat.
- [23:26]
A
Trusted advisors. But they're all you.
- [23:29]
B
Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yeah.
- [23:32]
A
Fantastic.
- [23:33]
B
And I actually think journaling. I don't know, what's the book that talks about doing your morning pages? Is it Julia Cameron or.
- [23:41]
A
I was gonna ask you. Yeah. The Artist's Way. Do you do.
- [23:44]
B
Yeah. So I'm not disciplined enough to do every single day. So again, it's one of those things where you let yourself off the hook and go, actually, don't worry about doing it every day, just try and do it consistently. Or when you feel that overwhelm like you were talking about of Instagram overwhelm, or feeling stuck. The first thing that I now think about is you just need to go your pen and paper sort out. And it does. It actually just really helps.
- [24:16]
A
It makes such a difference. And I agree. Oh, my goodness. I always feel really good when I manage to do three full pages of free writing in the morning. But I haven't been able to do it since because it's so intense. You get like hand cramp after page one and a half and you're like, I can't think of anything else to put in here.
- [24:34]
B
Yeah. Nowadays, who's got the focus for three pages?
- [24:37]
A
Come on.
- [24:38]
B
Like, I. Yeah, I just think it's a really good discipline. And actually another thing from the freak flag that I do on a regular basis is a daily visual diary. And I call it a daily visual diary. But again, I don't give myself a hard time when I don't do it daily. But it's brilliant. It's brilliant way of just, like, loosening up or just recording something of your day. And the sketchbooking part for me, within the course was really helpful as well. And that kind of came out of it for me, that I was just like, I'm going to keep. I've got these kind of square. They're square little sketchbooks and I'll write in them as well. But then I'll either doodle or do whatever or sketches and stuff, just as a way of recording, I suppose, as well.
- [25:29]
A
It's so nice to be able to flick back. And when I've drawn the day, I remember everything so much better than if I was just trying to remember it with my brain.
- [25:38]
B
Yeah. And it's so much nicer than just flicking through your phone photos where there's like gazillions of that. You've got these books that are kind of recording and. Yeah, it's just really nice because my kids weren't even P7 when I started and now they're like in the fourth year, but I've got these books of sketches of them when they were in primary school and things. And, yeah, it's just a really nice sort of record to keep as well.
- [26:03]
A
Oh, me. We're on this meandering journey together and I'm in it, so I enjoyed it.
- [26:08]
B
Good, good.
- [26:09]
A
You mentioned that your mum was an artist and you felt like, oh, she's the artist, so I can't be. So that's really interesting. Was that one of the biggest permission things for you, like, just to be yourself and not feel like, oh, I can't do that, that's already taken.
- [26:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, it really was, yeah. Although I was working creatively quite a lot before I did the course, I think that piece was really important and I don't really understand why it was that I had that kind of attitude or whatever, but I just thought it's not. There's not a space for me to also be this creative person or whatever, which. Absolutely. There's space for everyone to be creative.
- [26:50]
A
And it just shows how much of life is the story that we're telling ourselves about things. And I think so much of the time we haven't even examined the stories that we're telling ourselves. And it might have taken till getting to the course of being like, wait a minute. In my brain, I have this thing where I think it's Mum's job to be the artist. Brilliant that you uncovered that.
- [27:11]
B
Yeah.
- [27:11]
A
So many people would just not even look at it and just carry on blindly.
- [27:14]
B
I think it is. The course was brilliant for, like, lots of penny drops for me, really. And the rejection collection, that is another thing that I took from it that was absolutely amazing. It's about the reframe of things as well, isn't it? It's sort of reframing. It's something that's really quite tough to going, actually. Do you know, this is a positive thing. I can. I've had a rejection, which means I am one step closer to a yes. And, yeah, that's a bit of a gold nugget, really, that.
- [27:47]
A
Oh, definitely. I could talk about rejection for days. Like, I just. I get so enthusiastic about it because for me, that was one of the biggest game changers in My life, not just my creative career, from being. It used to be a horrible, painful thing and it was shameful. If I've been rejected, I'll do anything to avoid rejection. I do not want to feel like that. It's horrible. And when I changed it to actually, I'm gonna throw myself in head first and get rejected as many times as I can.
- [28:16]
B
Yeah.
- [28:17]
A
As a game. Like, that was when things just went crazy because I didn't. Hadn't realized how many things I was blocking myself from even applying to because I didn't want even the idea of being rejected and competitions, open briefs, anything. I was just like, no. But then, yeah, just start applying for things. So many of them became yeses. It was annoying, actually, because you can't get the nos. Because people sort of been like, oh, all right then. Yeah, you applied.
- [28:44]
B
I. I genuinely think that it's. You have probably transformed lots of lives with you with this sort of concept. Because I think being able to. Yeah. Because it's part and parcel of the industry, isn't it, to get rejected. And so if there's a way of being able to fit and not let it stop you from, like, being. Putting yourself out there, I think is really important.
- [29:08]
A
Yeah. It's funny, I first heard about the concept was a coach lady years and years ago called Tiffany Hannah, and she did a project called raise your hand, say yes. And she had stickers that you put on a chart and you'd do a hundred. And I didn't buy anything, but I just remember seeing it and being like, so basically you're just celebrating every single time, regardless of what happens, just because you tried to take it from there and turn it into a no thank yous thing. Yeah, really helpful. But I've recently seen there's a girl on Instagram trying to get a thousand rejections and she's won a beauty pageant and she's become an actress and all these crazy things. And she's. I was like, that's really up in the game. Going to a thousand.
- [29:48]
B
Like her completely changed. Yeah, good for her. But it does prove the point, doesn't it, that it is about persistence. And I think, like, when you're frightened of rejection, that's the piece for you can't persist, you can't keep going if you're holding yourself back. Whereas if you learn to be able to deal with the rejections, be happy for other people that are succeeding and have your ritual, because I think that's the other bit for me is just. It does hurt. But also if you Create some kind of ritual that makes you feel better so it ties in with the artist. I think it's the artist date with Julia Cameron's book. You can work in some kind of ritual that every time you get rejected, take yourself off somewhere, which is somewhere lovely for your cup of tea and your brownie or whatever it is. Take yourself to a gallery or museum and fill back up again. Allow it to sit and allow yourself to feel it and then move on.
- [30:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's important. You don't want to just be like, that's fine, whatever. Letting yourself be sad or disappointed if you need to, and then moving on and doing something nice to refill your cup. That's so wise.
- [31:01]
B
Yeah. Scream into the pillow. Scream into the pillow.
- [31:04]
A
First try and punch things and then have a nice time. Oh, I feel like, what a good note to end on. And this has been so good to kind of hear your journey and your career and just what you got out of finding your creative voice. And I say that it's never over, is it? Like you're always everybody, even if they're not creative, we're always finding our creative voice and discovering ourselves a bit more and a bit more.
- [31:27]
B
Oh, completely. And actually, one of the things that I totally loved about the course and that was one of the things that swung it for me was the lifetime access. Because I do. I still go back with both the courses and dip into them. Yeah. Because it's. Because it's never over. Like I think you've always got to be. For me, anyway. I feel the need to. You're always evolving and growing and learning and you can come back to things with new eyes and things as well.
- [31:56]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because you even coming back to the same lesson, you've changed when you come back to it or life's different. So you're always going to discover new things about yourself.
- [32:07]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:08]
A
I love that. That's why we did it. We'd all had experiences of signing up to things and then coming back six months or a year later and it being like your access has expired.
- [32:17]
B
Yeah. Ye.
- [32:18]
A
Because it's so frustrating. And I know people do it for good reasons and things, but that was one of our promises were like lifetime access. Because life happens. People forget. They get busy. You join a course and life just goes whoosh. Or you get super busy with client work or whatever.
- [32:33]
B
Yeah. That's happened to me so often and it's just like that. That has been brilliant. You need to revisit things and take things at your own pace and yeah, absolutely.
- [32:44]
A
That's so good. We're starting, we're doing a new thing where there's going to be eight months of a live call every month in the freak flag course. So that's starting next Thursday so you can join in again on that.
- [32:57]
B
Oh, fantastic. You guys are workaholics, aren't you?
- [33:01]
A
It's fun. That's another thing actually we should have talked about that with playing when you enjoy yourself, not your work is better
- [33:07]
B
when you're having fun and when you're loving what you do as well. Yeah.
- [33:11]
A
People can feel it in your work when you're having a good time.
- [33:13]
B
Yeah, I agree. Definitely.
- [33:17]
A
Thank you so much, Anna. Pleasure.
- [33:19]
B
It's been my pleasure. I've totally loved chatting to you. Yeah.
- [33:24]
A
I'm going to sprinkle all your links in below so people can come and find you and admire your work.
- [33:29]
B
Yeah.
- [33:29]
A
Thank you so much.
- [33:41]
B
It.