D (2:48)

Usually the publisher come to you with the contract. And contracts are kind of standard when you've read a couple, they're all pretty much the same. And copyright is. Yeah, a license to make a book in these territories over this time period, if the book goes out of period for a certain length of time, the rights revert to you and then you could take it to another publisher. Different to in other areas of illustration, you're also paid a royalty. So you're. This isn't copyright, but it's linked. You're paid in advance on your royalties. So say you paid 10,000 pound for a book, this is an advance on royalties. So when your royalties start earning, so when you earn a percentage per book sold, you pay off that 10,000 pound first and then you start earning receiving the royalties.

B (3:37)

But the copyright for the illustrations and the writing remains with you. The publisher has just bought a license to use it.

D (3:45)

You're granting them a license to use it in as many territories for a certain period of time. And then I think there's a time period, so I can't quite remember, but I think there's a time period where they can publish the book. But say they only have it out, they only publish it and it's out a couple of years and then it's not in any bookshops at all. And even though your agreement was for a longer period, if it hasn't been in any bookshops for a certain period of time, the rights then come back to you because then you could take it to another publisher who could publish it and put it in the bookshops.

C (4:22)

Well, that's good.

D (4:22)

Yeah. So it sort of overrides the original agreement if they just do not sell any, that it's not available anywhere. How you would prove it's not available in any bookshops, I'm not sure.

B (4:33)

Yeah, that'd be a bit difficult, wouldn't it?

D (4:35)

But I think if the publisher agree with you. Yes, we're not, we're not publishing or selling it anymore, then you, you can take the rights back.

B (4:42)

And if you are with a publisher, your book is with a publisher, they've sold some foreign rights to other publishing houses. So you can, they don't have exclusivity, but that your book would be exclusive to one publisher in the uk, but they sell rights to other publishers.

D (4:59)

They sell rights to other publishers in other countries. You don't sign a new contract with every co edition that's published in another country. That's all in the original contract you are giving them. Yeah, you're Giving them the rights to sell it in other territories, they let you know and they might ask whether you're happy to do the deal or not. But, yeah, it's in the original contract.

B (5:21)

And then you earn royalties from those other foreign additions.

D (5:25)

So that's all in the original contract. How much royalties you learn on foreign editions, how much you learn on UK additions, how much you learn when they're in special sales, like very heavily discounted situations, what your royalties would be in that situation, it's broken down into lots of tiny clauses.

B (5:43)

And the publisher that originally commissioned your book that you signed the contract with, all the foreign rights royalties are funneled through them to you. You have to. Don't have to manage all these different.

D (5:54)

That all goes through the publisher and they pay you. You. You keep the rights for things like toys, stage production, like other uses of the work. So say a theater company approach you, they have to approach it, approach you and the publisher and you give permission and they'll sign a contract with you. The publisher doesn't own the rights to the theater production or the toy. For example, I noticed that in the.

C (6:21)

Salty contract about film and cartoon, that.

D (6:25)

Sort of thing that was not included.

C (6:27)

Yeah, like a whole new contract.

D (6:29)

Yeah, that's right.

B (6:30)

So they can't exploit those rights. You can. Or they can. The publisher can be approached by a TV company looking to make an animation and then they come to you and say, right, shall we strike you? I'll manage this for you.

D (6:41)

Yeah.

B (6:43)

Oh, that sounds a good situation, having one person looking after your interests in that way.

D (6:50)

Yeah. Yeah, it is. I've not heard of a situation like this in children's book publishing, but I've heard in other areas of publishing where they don't trust their publisher or paying them all the royalties and they've had to go in and shake that tree and get a load more money off them just by nudging them and saying, hang on a minute, you told me it was published in this territory and I've not seen this money. I've never had that happen to me and I can't think of an another. Be interesting to know if other picture book people have had that happen. I haven't or I haven't heard of it.

C (7:17)

It's so complicated.

D (7:18)

Yeah.

C (7:19)

Naughty people might just be hoping you don't check.

D (7:21)

Yeah, I suppose it depends on the.

B (7:23)

Publisher and also the competency of them as well. It's just that mistrust. Do people keep a fair set of records to tell you at the end of the year how many have been sold or if you're low on their list of priorities, perhaps half the information gets mislaid. So it's.

D (7:40)

I imagine that's easily done actually.

C (7:42)

And like when you think, you know, if somebody does their own project and they hire you as the illustrator and you agree like an artwork creation fee and then you get a percentage of the sales, it's kind of like a license. Like you've got to trust that they're telling you the right numbers of the sales and things that I think that's.

B (7:57)

Why it's quite hard to monitor licensing things out yourself. It's better to get an agent. And I think there's a really good video either in SkillShare or on YouTube with Jennifer Nelson licensing agents. And it's very fun to watch as well because they're really such a wacky bunch of women and they explain it really well and how they have all these spreadsheets running simultaneously for their clients. So they know when one exclusive license that is you could own, that person only wants the rights to your image. No one else must be using them anywhere else. So when the exclusivity runs out, you can then sell it onto someone else who might want an exclusive license. So I mean, you know, you can make money out of single images even if you put them into repeats and make patterns. But it's another really specialized area and I think some people do that you have to do transporting. You know, if llamas are big at the moment or avocados or owls or whatever. Our favorite unicorns. But they're dead. Dead in the water. All the dead unicorns.

D (8:56)

What's next, Tanya? Yeah, unicorns are gone.

C (8:59)

What, what's coming next, I wonder?

B (9:01)

I'm not sure. I haven't thought about it too much because we're not allowed to on Freak Flag though, because.

D (9:07)

It could be, but.

B (9:08)

We'Re anti trend, aren't we? So the trend is just be as weird as you can because otherwise you just get left, left in the dust when it all shifts over. But some people make yeah business out of that. Just doing short term trend based images that you can license to whatever phone covers and all those different things. But in normal like normal like not picture book in general illustration. It depends. If you're, if you're working with a design group, the agency will tell you what they want to be included in the license and so will advertising. I haven't had any experience with advertising in the uk but in Hong Kong they always said the client wants everything. No, the client doesn't need Everything. Let's break this down. And it's quite difficult because you get a lot of pushback, which is, we don't have time for that. We've got to get this illustration finished and done. We don't want to talk licenses. And it's really hard for an illustrator, especially one without so much experience, to have the confidence to say, no, I really need you to tell me what you definitely need it for and what you might anticipate needing it for later on. Because there's. And the only way you can do that is say to them, just don't waste your money buying everything, because it'll cost you lots of money.

D (10:22)

Is that what you do if a client approaches you for a map and if they've never commissioned anybody, do they just think they're going to get the copyright? And do you have to explain that to them?

B (10:31)

I think a lot of people think, but you can imagine from their point of view, I've asked you to do something, it was my idea, I'm going to pay you to make it, therefore I own it, which obviously they won't. And you have to explain that it's licensed and adding on different clauses to your license, like, do you need it for social media, do you need it for publishing? Sorry, for advertising, they call it above the line and below the line, which is basically whether it's in TV advertising. I can't remember the exact description. There's two different advertising categories which can put a massive percentage on top of your licensing fee. But yeah, you just have to get them to explain what they might need it for and how long they need it for, what it's going to appear on and in what territory. And is it online and print or just online or just print? So there's so many different categories and you can create multiples of all of those and it can get really complicated. So the best way to imagine it is like a McDonald's menu, although I don't like to imagine that at all, but that's the easiest way. Like a McDonald's menu of special meals, keep it as simple as you can.

D (11:43)

So would you tell them if you want the full copyright, it would cost you this huge amount of money. But if you want the copyright for this map just to be used in this particular area for this amount of time, it will be much less expensive. And then they see the light.

B (11:58)

You show some examples. Like you say, if you want copyright, then that's going to be way too much. But if you just want a license and I retain the copyright, which you should always don't sell it unless it's a really big deal. If people think they want lots and lots of usage, you can give them a perpetuity license so you can use it for as long as they want. And then you would add all media, which is right up to the doorway of copyright, but not going over the threshold, but you charge a lot for that. They do a mid range one and a bottom one. And that in itself is a kind of education in licensing for the client because they can see it written out in numbers that hurt.

D (12:36)

And do you leave the door open sometimes? So they'll say, I want a license for this use and we might come back to you for another license later.

B (12:44)

I always say to them, start with the lowest and find out just what you need and if it really works for you, then come back later. I did a map recently and they thought it was just the map to guide everyone around the castle, but then they really liked the map and they started thinking I would take all the icons off them and turn them into advertising assets, which they had started to do. They didn't realize the intricacies of licensing, so we went back and did a long chat about what they needed to use and what for. And it ended up being double the original artwork creation. So if you get licensing right, which we talk about on the business course, you can really make it work for you and more than the original artwork creation. And if you put time spans on it so they're not wasting too much money, say three years, then they come back, they go, it went really well, let's have another three years. But extend it to some other uses so you can just keep earning a bit more and a bit more each time. That's so good.

C (13:43)

And that shows exactly how important it is to learn this stuff, even though it sounds really boring. Because if you'd been a newbie illustrator, you might have made that map and thought, oh, that's so cool they're using it. I'm so excited. Oh, I've seen it everywhere. Like they've started taking the icons out of it and using it and just taking that as like a compliment and being flattered and excited to see it everywhere and not the business brain that goes, hey, wait a minute, they're using that for loads. They haven't got a license for that.

B (14:08)

And also, it almost sounds too good to be true in the early days that you think, people aren't going to pay me for that, surely, how can I demand that? It was their idea, I drew it for them. They must own it. And one of our illustration students, Benjamin, he was like, do you remember when he said, I've never heard of this model, I've never heard of this model in Australia. I don't think it works like that. And the best example is if you go on to Getty Images and try and license a photograph and you have lots of different options for where you'll use it, how many imprints of that photograph will be used, how big the resolution of it is. Like, it's a really in depth licensing situation. It costs a fortune and everyone does that. Magazines, newspapers, any media that needs photography is completely used to that model. So when you go and do it as an illustrator, you're just echoing a business model that's already in place for your clients, even though it might be a weird new idea for you.

D (15:04)

What about you in Live Illustration?

C (15:07)

Well, it's a funny one because I shied away from the licensing thing to start with and then realized clients would get me to do the live, the visual notes graphic recording for their event and obviously wanted to use it afterwards because that's the whole point. They want to share about their event and what they've been doing and they would say, like, come, is that ours now we can just have it. And I would be like, all I knew was, don't give your copyright away. So I was like, yes. So then I had a template, like, of a license and things, and I just made it as, like you say, up to the door of being theirs, you know, a really generous timeline, generous usage, because honestly, I didn't care. I was like, I don't want to see this ever again. But they find it really useful. And that meant my rates could reflect the license. So because the license is included, charging that rate is kind of because they get a really generous license. But still retaining the copyright means I put my logo is still on there. So it's like a big advert. So they share it and then I get more work from that. So I feel like it's very win win, because they're happy. They're not like, oh, sugar, do we have to stop using this now? Is Katie going to be chasing us down? I'm like, keep using it, please share it as much as you want. Like, the only thing, the only stipulation I have is it's for online use and on screens and if they want to print it, they'd come back to me and rearrange something.

B (16:27)

So do they often do that? Does that ever happen?

C (16:29)

Yeah. But then again, if it's A university, and it's for educational stuff or they're just in a report. I'm like, it's fine. Because also, strategically, I know people that read reports and you look at university stuff are also probably running events and will see it.

B (16:43)

And so you've got marketing folded into that.

C (16:46)

Yeah, but if they wanted. So, like, for instance, I did a job for Starbucks and Boo is. But it was well paid. They wanted to put it on the wall of their office. And I was like, yes, but again, it was the original fee again for them to stick it on the wall.

B (17:01)

Yeah.

C (17:01)

Because it was a whole different job.

B (17:04)

That's interesting. And they were prepared to pay the fee again to make it basically a large mural.

C (17:09)

Yeah. I think Dickies did the same thing. It was funny. It was the same sort of time. You know Dickies, the workwear brand?

B (17:14)

Oh, yeah. And so it was in their hq. It wasn't in their Star.

C (17:19)

Yeah, it wasn't on again.

D (17:20)

That was part of it.

C (17:21)

I was like, it's not like a global campaign where they're making loads of money out of it. It's for the culture and the people working there having a nice time looking at what they've talked about.

B (17:31)

No, that makes sense. If it's. If it's internal, you can't charge so much. But there's all these other things to put in your contracts, like what it does exclude, because quite often what you say something is for is fine, but that can be open to interpretation. So it's always good to remember to exclude things like merchandising, using it as any form of branding that happened as.

C (17:56)

Somebody took a bit of an illustration and wanted to turn it into an enamel pin. And I can't remember if that one went a bit wonky because it wasn't me that did the job. And the illustrator who'd done the job was like, okay, I don't really mind. That's totally fine. But in hindsight, I'm like, that should have been a totally separate license.

B (18:12)

Yeah. Extra merchandising cost. I guess it depends if they gave them away free or whether they charge them. It's all about. And copyright means the right to copy your work and the right to distribute your work. So if it's redistributed and republished, and especially if money is made on it, you can decide to charge if someone is copying and distributing, but you can definitely charge if they're making money on top of it. And that's where merchandising ends up being a royalty. So, say the map for the castle, they take some icons out or they want to sell art prints of the map or fridge magnets of Lord and Lady Hoo Ha. Then it suddenly becomes a percentage of. Or, I mean, you can, as an illustrator, you can choose, you can say, I'll give you a flat rate for reproducing those, but your kind of canny mind might go, I wonder how many they'll sell. And if I put a sort of 15, 10% royalty on it, would I make more if they just continue to sell? So there's lots of gambles, but you do have to engage your business mind, don't you? Because you're losing so many opportunities if you don't get your head in the game for copyright and license. And if it sounds complicated, we teach it all really easily on business club.

C (19:27)

The illustration Business Club, a new name. I was thinking, you know, for, like when you do a pet portrait or a family portrait or something. I never even thought about licensing for stuff like that. But you don't, do you? I just tell people it's for personal use.

B (19:41)

Yeah, Yeah.

D (19:42)

I would sell them the artwork, send them the artwork, but they didn't own the copyright. They couldn't then produce it as a brand for a children's clothes brand or something. Yeah, Never gave them the copyright.

C (19:54)

Did you talk about a license or anything with them, do you?

D (19:57)

No, I didn't give them a license. They owned the piece of paper with the work on it, but they couldn't use it for anything. They would have to approach me again to say, can I use it for.

B (20:05)

Yeah, but in that kind of complicated world, people don't normally think that, do they? Like, I own the picture of my pet. I love it so much, I can now print it on postcards and give it to all my friends. Which you can understand why people would think that, because they think owning the artwork gives you the right to reproduce. But obviously, obviously not. The other example, I remember when we used to work for. What did they call it, we used to go to ask for our artwork back and we'd go to the secretaries and say, you know, I've handed an artwork two months ago and it's been published. Can I have the original artwork back? And they'd always make a big fuss about how they couldn't find it. And because we were all in a big group of illustrators in studios. That's the other good thing about community. Everyone would tell each other things and they were like, I've never had any artwork back from them. They never give it back. And someone said, it's all on the secretary's walls in their flats. So that particular magazine, at a certain period in time, never gave the illustrators their original artwork and it was distributed. Yeah. Amongst the art directors and the staff of the magazine who thought, wow, isn't that outrageous if I think about it now.

D (21:20)

Yeah.

B (21:21)

So cheeky.

C (21:22)

I'm keeping that one.

B (21:23)

Yeah.

C (21:24)

No, Sandra, it's mine. You got the last one.

B (21:29)

Yeah. No one ever got it back. Luckily, with digital, you could never get away with that now. But all those original artworks of amazing illustrators that they had commissioned all framed up somewhere.

D (21:41)

Yeah. I remember a publisher going out of business in the 90s, quite a big publisher back then. Everybody made their work on paper and I remember this publisher going out of business overnight and word getting around quickly and everybody just turning up there the next day, banging on the door, asking for their original artwork back. Yeah. Big dramas.

B (22:01)

How do you smart enough for them to do that, to know that that's. It's like a bank. Rumors of a bank crash, isn't it? Banging on the building. That stuff's going to end up gallery. Careful.

C (22:15)

That's a good one.

B (22:16)

Yeah, I think that's. We probably bored everyone to tears with the arcane ways of licensing and copyright. But it's so juicy when you get into it. Those specific licensing illustrators, which I think Americans are really good at, make really good incomes just from generating a few images a year that are very targeted, use Pantone Colors of the Year, Trend Image of the Year and sell them to multiples. So that's a whole other like micro world of illustration.

C (22:47)

We're not there. No, we're not as beautiful, but slapping our freak flags.

B (22:53)

See you next week.

C (22:54)

Goodbye.

D (22:55)

Bye.

C (23:03)

Sam.