Get more illustration work: A pep talk, some tips, and a tiny rant

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Good Ship Illustration - "Get more illustration work: A pep talk, some tips, and a tiny rant"

Release Date: May 16, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Good Ship Illustration, hosts Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, and Tania Willis delve into the complexities of acquiring illustration clients. Responding to a question from Emily Haynes Studio, the trio offers a blend of motivational insights, practical tips, and a touch of frustration regarding traditional and modern methods of client acquisition in the illustration industry.

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Approach to Client Acquisition

Setting Up to Be Found vs. Active Hunting

The conversation begins with Emily Haynes posing a multifaceted question about the process of finding illustration clients, including resources and etiquette for reaching out on social media.

Katie Chappell emphasizes the paradigm shift from actively hunting clients to positioning oneself so that clients come to you:

“[...] hunting clients, not hunting them. You like clients to illustrate a hunt and then they can find me.” ([00:55])

Helen Stephens echoes this sentiment, highlighting the importance of creating an appealing online presence:

“Making sure my shop front is nice, my lights are on, it's warm. Cushions are plumped.” ([01:53])

Key Takeaways:

• Optimize Your Online Presence: Ensure your website is visually appealing and optimized for search engines (SEO) to attract high-intent clients searching for specific services or niches.
• Energy Matters: The way you present yourself online should reflect a welcoming and professional image, making clients feel comfortable reaching out.

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The Role of SEO in Visibility

Optimizing for Search Engines

Katie elaborates on the significance of SEO in making your work discoverable:

“[...] if you know what you're doing, which we talk about in the business course, and it's about, you know, figuring out what you want to do so that then you can optimize all of the words on your website [...] so they're looking for that specific thing and you're answering that specific thing.” ([02:00])

Helen adds that a well-optimized website not only attracts clients but also builds trust and credibility:

“[...] it's never worked for me.” ([03:06])

Key Takeaways:

• Niche Targeting: Use specific keywords related to your illustration niche to emerge in search results where clients have high intent.
• Content Quality: A beautiful, informative website fosters trust, making potential clients more likely to engage your services.

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Traditional Methods: Annuals and Directories

The Decline of Traditional Directories

The hosts reminisce about the traditional methods of client acquisition through illustration annuals and directories, sharing mixed experiences.

Helen reflects on the inefficacy of annuals in the modern context:

“[...] they probably still are. That model does work for a lot of people.” ([04:29])

Emily Haynes shares her personal experience:

“I think I maybe got a piece for Elle magazine.” ([04:56])

Key Takeaways:

• Limited ROI: Traditional annuals and directories often do not provide a worthwhile return on investment, especially when placement next to subpar work diminishes your visibility.
• Evolving Industry Practices: The reliance on annuals has decreased, prompting illustrators to seek more effective avenues for exposure.

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Modern Strategies: Social Media and Personal Outreach

Leveraging Social Media Platforms

The discussion shifts to contemporary strategies for connecting with potential clients through social media, particularly Instagram and LinkedIn.

Emily Haynes advocates for the effectiveness of postcards combined with a strong online presence:

“ [...] a postcard that shows your best piece of work with something very cheery and low pressure on the back, like, I'm gonna be in London. And on then it'd be nice to meet up.” ([06:28])

Katie highlights the importance of genuine interaction over aggressive pitching:

“[...] Jo Overend is [...] she's just quietly going, hello.” ([08:36])

Helen emphasizes building connections and maintaining visibility:

“Follow them on Instagram and LinkedIn so that you've got those kind of connections there.” ([10:07])

Key Takeaways:

• Balanced Approach: Combine digital visibility with personal touches like postcards to create memorable impressions.
• Authentic Engagement: Engage with potential clients by interacting on their posts and building relationships rather than sending unsolicited pitches.
• Consistency: Regularly update your social media and maintain an active presence to keep your work visible to potential clients.

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Etiquette for Messaging Clients

Navigating Communication Channels

The hosts discuss the delicate balance of reaching out to clients without coming across as intrusive or spammy.

Katie Chappell warns against aggressive messaging:

“[...] you have to be careful not to be harassing them.” ([11:14])

Emily Haynes concurs, sharing pet peeves about unsolicited messages:

“I get really annoyed. I sometimes get. People say, it's just a message saying, follow me.” ([11:50])

Key Takeaways:

• Personalization is Crucial: Tailor your messages to show genuine interest and knowledge about the client's work.
• Avoid Mass Messaging: Refrain from sending generic pitches; instead, focus on building a relationship through meaningful interactions.
• Respect Boundaries: Understand that art directors and clients may have limited time and prefer non-intrusive communication.

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Building an Independent Online Presence

Email Lists and Direct Sales

The conversation shifts to the importance of owning your audience through email lists and direct online sales, reducing dependence on social media algorithms.

Emily Haynes discusses leveraging email lists for exclusive sales:

“We tell people that he's made some prints... they're going to be on this weekend. So get on there quick.” ([15:38])

Helen highlights the benefits of email ownership:

“They put it's already difficult to sell your work through a gallery on Commission from 20 years ago. Now it's so expensive.” ([14:58])

Key Takeaways:

• Email Marketing: Build and maintain an email list to directly reach your audience with updates, new releases, and exclusive offers.
• Direct Sales Platforms: Utilize platforms like Squarespace or Shopify to create streamlined shopping experiences without relying on third-party galleries.
• Sustainability: An email list ensures you maintain contact with your audience regardless of changes in social media landscapes.

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Participating in Competitions and Exhibitions

Gaining Visibility Through Awards

The hosts advocate for entering strategic competitions and exhibitions as a means to increase visibility and attract clients.

Emily Haynes mentions the value of mentorship competitions:

“[...] the people who've stay in my mind are the people who've applied for our one on one mentoring.” ([16:15])

Helen Stephens underscores the long-term benefits of prestigious awards:

“If it's a traveling show as well and your work carries on being shown around the world.” ([17:09])

Key Takeaways:

• Selective Entry: Choose competitions that offer genuine exposure and opportunities without demanding excessive fees or compromising your work's integrity.
• Long-Term Exposure: Participating in touring exhibitions can lead to international recognition and a sustained influx of clients.
• Networking Opportunities: Competitions often place you in contact with industry professionals, fostering relationships that can lead to future collaborations.

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Selling Artwork Independently

Embracing DIY Sales Channels

The hosts discuss the diminishing role of traditional galleries and the rise of independent online sales.

Emily Haynes shares her strategy for limited-time print sales:

“[...] get on there quick. And we just stick them all up on. We've always been doing it on Squarespace.” ([15:38])

Katie Chappell praises the flexibility of independent selling platforms:

“[...] you don't need that anymore. Anymore. It's so easy to sell your artwork online with a private view on a website.” ([14:51])

Key Takeaways:

• Flexibility and Control: Independent platforms allow illustrators to manage their sales, pricing, and customer interactions directly.
• Cost-Effectiveness: Avoiding gallery commissions and expensive framing reduces overhead, increasing profit margins.
• Exclusivity and Scarcity: Limited-time offers create urgency and can drive quicker sales among loyal followers.

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Final Thoughts and Encouragement

The episode concludes with a blend of humor and motivational advice, encouraging illustrators to experiment with different strategies to find what works best for them.

Katie Chappell whimsically suggests:

“Fling some spaghetti against the wall. See what sticks.” ([18:14])

Emily Haynes adds her father's wisdom:

“[...] my bit will stick.” ([18:19])

Key Takeaways:

• Experimentation: Don’t be afraid to try various methods to discover the most effective ways to attract clients.
• Persistence: Consistently showcase your work and engage with your audience to build lasting connections and opportunities.

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Conclusion

In this insightful episode, The Good Ship Illustration hosts provide a comprehensive guide to modern client acquisition for illustrators. By emphasizing the importance of an optimized online presence, authentic engagement on social media, independent sales strategies, and selective participation in competitions, they equip illustrators with the tools needed to navigate and thrive in the competitive creative industry. Their balanced approach—combining foundational marketing principles with contemporary digital strategies—offers valuable lessons for both emerging and established illustrators aiming to expand their client base and sustain a successful career.

Transcript

[Emily Haynes]

I've got a question.

[Katie]

Go for it.

[Emily Haynes]

Hello, Good Ship. Loving the Good Ship podcast. Thank you all so much for your valuable insights. You hear that? Valuable insights, valuable. I just have a question for you all regarding clients. I know you've covered this a lot, but I'd love to know the actual process, the hunt for clients. Where do you go to find them? What resources are available, such as directories, websites, socials? Also, what is the etiquette for adding messaging clients on social media? And that's from Emily Haynes Studio.

[Helen]

It's a two parter, isn't it?

[Emily Haynes]

It's a good question.

[Katie]

My first thing would be, I know you probably said this is a joke, but hunting clients, not hunting them.

[Emily Haynes]

You like to lie down in their way and they find you.

[Katie]

I like clients to illustrate a hunt and then they can find me. Yeah, I think maybe that's. But it's quite important, isn't it? Like the energy of how you find clients. Because if you, if you're pitching to people, if you slide into their DMS or whatever and you have this like, hey, I'm hunting you, I need you. But I think people can really pick up on that.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

So it's worth checking in with yourself maybe. Before you start hunting clients, you definitely.

[Emily Haynes]

Want your stall laid out to look absolutely amazing first, don't you? Because even if you're going to reach out to clients, you're going to point them at your website and if that's not looking lovely, tip top, then no. So, yeah, you definitely need to lay out your stall and then hopefully people will find you. But there's ways of helping people find you.

[Helen]

Tell us how you lie down, Katie, and get found.

[Katie]

Well, like Helen said, making sure my shop front is nice, my lights are on, it's warm.

[Emily Haynes]

Cushions are plumped.

[Katie]

Yeah, cushions are plumped.

[Helen]

SEO.

[Katie]

SEO. The kettles on. So SEO, like they Google things like, I need an illustrator for this. Then you pop up. So if you know what you're doing, which we talk about in the business course, and it's about, you know, figuring out what you want to do so that then you can optimize all of the words on your website so that if somebody wants somebody who illustrates Wales, for instance, not the country, the animal.

[Emily Haynes]

All the country, all the countries.

[Katie]

Yeah. Then you're gonna pop up. And that means they're really, they've got really high intent because they're looking for that specific thing and you're answering that specific thing. So they're not, they're not comparing you based on price. They're not comparing you based on style. You're in London. Like, you want to get quite specific for SEO to work in your favor. And then, yeah, people just really want to work with you. And if your website's lovely and it encourages people to know, like and trust you, that's really helpful as well, because then it means by the time they message you, they're just like, take my money.

[Helen]

When are you free?

[Katie]

Let's work together. Which is the energy that I much prefer to pitching because it's never worked for me.

[Helen]

Pitching's really difficult. I mean, writing pitch letters to clients, I love your brand, I'm ready to work with you. That's how I think. There was a midway point and a lot of people used active pitching at one point. But prior to that, the world was a bit like the dinosaur. World of illustration in the 90s was, as Emily described. Emily, I'm not calling you a dinosaur. I am, actually, because that's the world we grew up into. I'm calling myself a dinosaur. That's what we were told. Here, have a look at these annuals. So we'd get these big illustration annuals that cost a fortune to advertise in. And I remember at college, with the work we were doing, we'd lay the annuals out on the table. We don't look at each other and think, these people aren't even related to us. Look at all this airbrush work. And it was nothing like the work we were doing.

[Emily Haynes]

It was horrible because your work, you would pay a fortune to be in an annual and then your work might be right beside something absolutely dreadful that made your work look bad. The colours were all around. The palette on the whole page was like, hurt your eyes. So you pay all that money and be put beside some other illustrators whose work was absolutely terrible. You just disappear into the pile of. Oh, you just never worked. I think I did it once.

[Helen]

The context would be wrong, wouldn't it? Just the entire context of it wasn't your work. But then those annuals were all sent out for free to art directors in advertising agencies, and they probably still are. That model does work for a lot of people.

[Emily Haynes]

They still do. You still see those directories. Not directories, annuals. I can't think of any. Except for the fantastic bologna one. But nobody pays to be in that. They just feature lots of incredible illustrators in there. But I can't think of another annual.

[Helen]

But we wouldn't know because they're not sent to us. I wonder if there's anyone out There any art directors that are receiving these big annuals? Will you let us know if that model works anymore?

[Katie]

And did you get work from, like, where you bought it in?

[Emily Haynes]

I did it once. No, I didn't get any work. Oh, hang on.

[Katie]

No, no.

[Emily Haynes]

Maybe. I think I maybe got a piece for Elle magazine. Wow. Yeah. Horoscope. It probably didn't cover the cost of being in the annual.

[Helen]

And the other one was like, people used to use lists, but, I mean, they still exist. I don't know anyone who uses them.

[Katie]

I remember before I learned about SEO, I was looking at. I think it was bikini lists, and I nearly spent. I think it was like £700. This is years ago, like 10 years ago.

[Emily Haynes]

£700 on this?

[Katie]

Yeah. That's two months of my rent and bills. I was like, is this going to be worth it? And in the end, I didn't go for it because it felt like such a.

[Emily Haynes]

You do wonder who makes most money out of these lists and annuals. I'm sure the person making the annual and the list makes more money than the illustrators.

[Helen]

With that level of subscription. I mean, no wonder you've got to pay a lot to get into either of them. But then what do you do when you're given that information? Here are the names. I mean, we did used to send postcards, and that's still a good way because in a digital world, people are really excited to receive snail mail with some postcards.

[Emily Haynes]

Nice and easy, though. I think in picture books, I used to send out postcards and they really worked. And they're easy because you're not pitching the idea of pitching writing a letter saying, I love your brand and I would. I would fit in there and, oh, gosh, the idea. That sounds so difficult and kind of false enough. And would it work? I don't know. Maybe it does work. I have no idea because I've never done it. But a postcard that shows your best piece of work with something very cheery and low pressure on the back, like, I'm gonna be in London. And on then it'd be nice to meet up.

[Katie]

Blah, blah, blah. No pressure.

[Emily Haynes]

No pressure. That's easy. I'm up for that. And I always used to do that and that worked.

[Helen]

But, yeah, those were the days. Yeah, when people would go and take their portfolio. I'm sure nobody takes their portfolio anymore. If I'm wrong, let me know. I know a lot of American illustrators say they will do that kind of thing. Say, hi, I'll be in New York. Be lovely to Meet up. But the pressure on people now we are. So in theory we're hyper productive because of this digital world and we can, you know, we can do everything much faster. I can't imagine art directors have an afternoon per week where they can look at portfolios. They're looking online and on Instagram.

[Katie]

Well, they'll be in their emails going, delete, delete, delete, delete.

[Emily Haynes]

Publishers are definitely, children's book publishers are on Instagram looking for talent on Instagram. If they like your work, they will get you in to see your folio. But I don't think they have a folio. Well, they don't have a folio day. But if they love your work and they've seen you on Instagram and maybe had a bit of correspondence back and forth, then they would get you into chat.

[Helen]

Yeah, I think if there's something, some kind and then you think, well, how do you build that relationship? How do you get that back and forth to begin with? But there's definitely a space for sending postcards with just a hi, this is my work. And if they like it, they're going to call you up. No amount of persuasion in a letter, it's going to make someone connect with your work, ask to see more of it. That isn't going to happen, so you might as well just put, hello, this is me. But it will get end up on their desk.

[Emily Haynes]

I feel like if they see it a certain number of times, like feeding a toddler a new meal, I think if the publisher has seen your work in different environments a few times, this is assuming your work is lovely and publishable. If they see a postcard and then they come across you on Instagram and then somebody mentions you, I think that's the kind of thing that builds up to them saying, will you come and see us? So I think it's worth frequently pushing on your Instagram, maybe have a little chat on their Instagram page about something they've published. You know, a little low pressure. I love what you're doing. Or I think if they come across you in different ways, that's a really good way to get in. And there's way easy ways of doing that that are not right in a big long pitch letter.

[Katie]

You know who's really good at that?

[Emily Haynes]

Who?

[Katie]

Jo Overend.

[Emily Haynes]

Yes, yes.

[Katie]

She's just quietly going, hello.

[Emily Haynes]

She's good fun, just low pressure. She's always post on Instagram a lot and they're really good fun and they're people like chatting about what she posts up because it's silly and it's.

[Katie]

And it's not like, hire me, hire me now.

[Emily Haynes]

No, it's just like, here's my work.

[Katie]

It'S having a good time.

[Helen]

That's it. I mean, illustrators have got that benefit. There's something visual and precious to show, even if it's just a quick drawing. You did a doodle while you're on the phone, you know, all those different levels of here's just a scribble I did. Oh, no. And here's a full illustration. You can keep yourself visible because you're not having to use someone else's visual material to sell whatever it is you're selling.

[Emily Haynes]

You can.

[Helen]

You already have the kind of gold dust of being an image maker that's a content maker. So if you keep reminding people you exist. I was listening to this really good Mel Robbins podcast a couple of days ago where she was talking to someone from Harvard who was like some professor of employment and marketing. That sounds like totally the wrong name, but that's how I remember it. And she was just saying, if you do things and people don't know that you do them, if you're not externalizing what it is you do, how on earth will anyone know? So even if you're a non illustrator, you have to find ways of talking about what it is you do. And that's that big crux, isn't it? Sounds like bragging and being boastful, but there's no way anyone's going to know. So you keep showing your work and then that little bit of. A little bit of hunting. Can you allow us a tiny bit?

[Katie]

Tiny bit. I'll let you.

[Helen]

Okay. Go on LinkedIn, look for some names of people use, which is very, you know, products you like, that you would like to be part of. Find out who's the art director. And then you can send them just a postcard or even follow them on Instagram. So that makes a kind of light collection connection with them.

[Emily Haynes]

Chat to them about what they're posting. I think if you want to get into picture books, it's a really good idea to go in a bookshop and just see who's publishing the stuff that you like, see which publishers are doing what and send them a postcard or follow them on Instagram and then have a little chat with them. And I was going to say following.

[Katie]

Is good because we're had people ask us in the past, like, what's the etiquette about following people? Yeah, of course you can follow them if they're public, then to Be honest.

[Emily Haynes]

They probably won't notice whether you follow them or not. I would just definitely press follow. But then if they post something interesting, then be in the chat.

[Helen]

Yeah, yeah. Follow them on Instagram and LinkedIn so that you've got those kind of connections there. What else did she ask something else about the etiquette of messaging.

[Emily Haynes]

Yeah. Also, what is the etiquette for adding messaging clients on social media?

[Katie]

Yeah. I think you've got to be careful not to be harassing them.

[Emily Haynes]

Yeah. I think if you've chatted. Okay, so this is just instinct. If I've chatted with somebody a few times on their feed and they've replied and then maybe it's gone into messages like, oh, I saw this thing we were talking about the other day. You might like it. Yeah, that's a really nice low pressure way to get in. Because then they're going to have a look on your Instagram feed and as long as you've set your stall out. Nice. And your work is a, you know, publishable, lovely work, let's assume then, yeah, they're going to stumble over you.

[Helen]

But it's not a good idea to go into messaging on any platform and say, hey, will you come and look at my portfolio? It's here.

[Emily Haynes]

No, I get really annoyed. I sometimes get. People say, it's just a message saying, follow me. They might say a bit more like, I followed you. Let's keep up community. Follow me back. I'm like, no, I'm not even going to look now.

[Katie]

Don't tell me what to do.

[Helen]

It's really hard to give clear, direct advice on that. How do I find clients? It's definitely. But I think what we've said is how it is. It's like building friendships and relationships and it's kind of a little bit touchy feeling. A mixture of digital SEO and printed work.

[Katie]

And put yourself in their shoes. If a random person you'd never met appeared in your inbox and said, here's.

[Emily Haynes]

My work, like, what do you think?

[Katie]

What do you think? Yeah, you'd be like, oh, God, that's such a big question. I'm not even gonna click on that. Or like sending somebody a voice note.

[Emily Haynes]

Out of the blue.

[Katie]

Terrifying, I think, as a client, because firstly, voice notes take ages to listen to. You've got to stop what you're doing and be like, what's this? So, and then also LinkedIn is. If you've ever had a cold pitch on LinkedIn, you know how horrible it is. It's like being slapped with A wet.

[Helen]

Fish like, oh, you're interested in building your marketing skills.

[Emily Haynes]

Go away, go away. Get out of my inbox.

[Helen]

So many people, you know, you must be one of thousands when they've copied and pasted that generalized thing, which is also like emails. What do you think about emailing clients with.

[Katie]

I think like you say the per. If you personalize it and show that you actually do care about what they're doing and you are watching and, and you know, what is it? We were just talking to somebody saying I'm a long time fan of the good Ship and turned out they really, they weren't doing a good job of pretending to be a long time fan.

[Helen]

Because we couldn't find them on any lists of any of our social media.

[Katie]

Yeah, they weren't on any email lists or any social media or like, are you really so like little things like that. It sounds really obvious. If you're gonna say you're a big long time fan or you really like somebody's work, maybe follow them first.

[Helen]

Make sure you're connected in some way. I mean, it's funny, the old rules of how you found a client are changing because the whole kind of online world is changing so much. So there's always, there's always going to be new ways of trying to connect. But at least we can market ourselves and we're not bound to agents being the only way to, to get a client. That said, I think agents are more important now than they, they have been because if the, if the annuals aren't there and people aren't using those lists. How do you find art directors in advertising agencies or design agencies who are dealing with all the juicy stuff like packaging and well paid advertising work? Really that route to those art directors is still through the agencies unless you want to do all the legwork yourself.

[Katie]

I was just going to say there's never been a better time to be an illustrator and that you don't really need an agent because it's like there's.

[Emily Haynes]

No I think so you can do what you want.

[Katie]

Like we've been saying, you can it flip, follow somebody who you find out is an art director and quietly, yeah, humanly befriend them.

[Emily Haynes]

I think so too. And I think the same for selling your work through a gallery. I don't think you really need a gallery anymore. It's really sad because galleries are finding it hard to survive so they're having to put their commission up. They put it's already difficult to sell your work through a gallery on Commission from 20 years ago. Now it's so expensive. Half of you know when you take the framing costs off and then the commission for the gallery. But you don't need that anymore. Anymore. It's so easy to sell your artwork online with a private view on a website. With a really great website and social media and build up your email list. You don't need a gallery.

[Helen]

Where would you. What online platform would you use for selling your work at this point? Shopify.

[Emily Haynes]

Well, what we've done with Jerry with his lovely whale screen prints is build up a email list.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Emily Haynes]

Tell people that he's made some prints. It's a print run of 10, 15, whatever he usually does. They're going to be on this weekend. They usually sell out in a weekend. So get on there quick. And we just stick them all up on. We've always been doing it on Squarespace. So it's not even a shop and people just email us and say I'll have that one and pay for it and then we'd market. So I think we're about to just put them in a shop. But they'll only be in there for a weekend.

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Emily Haynes]

That's how we do it. They're going there.

[Katie]

That's such a good point as. Well the mailing list thing because it's so handy.

[Emily Haynes]

Yeah. You own the list. So if social media went down or everybody left Instagram or whatever, you keep your people because they're on your mailing list, which is really important. So a good way to get clients by building up a network so that people are kind of aware who you are is entering competitions or mentoring competitions. So within the world of picture books, I know publishers will speak to picture hooks who run their competitions and mentoring. They speak to me often. Publishers and agents ask me and. And the people who stay in my mind are the people who've applied for our one on one mentoring. You don't want to pay money to enter these competitions and you don't want to give your copyright away. But some strategic competitions are really good.

[Helen]

Yeah. I think a lot of the illustration ones you do have to pay fees to get in. But I think it's worth it to.

[Emily Haynes]

Get the AY charge. Don't they? But that's a good.

[Helen]

Yeah. The World Illustration Awards.

[Emily Haynes]

Yeah.

[Helen]

But it's a good few others.

[Emily Haynes]

I think if you enter in those and the people organizing the show know you are and people have been to see the show know who you are. So yeah.

[Helen]

If it's a traveling show as well and your work carries on being shown around the world. Like the World Illustration Awards, which is a touring exhibition. That's a really good way to show your work. I have a range of cards that I sell in Hong Kong, so I still have a lot of Hong Kong clients. So having cards overseas in a shop is also like having a calling card present somewhere. So it's free advertising, isn't it? People. The only people who buy cards are people who like the cards and they send them to people who they think will appreciate that card because they have the same aesthetic. So okay, you might be sending them around to non design people, but you never know. There might be someone who's interested in commissioning you. So cards are a really good way to keep yourself circulated.

[Katie]

You never know who's watching.

[Helen]

Yeah, I think that gave me lots of information there. All the different versions of getting your work out there. So hope it's useful. Emily.

[Katie]

Yeah? Fling some spaghetti against the wall. See what sticks. I was in mud.

[Emily Haynes]

My dad was a car salesman. He used to say, fling, fling mud against the wall. So my bit will stick.

[Katie]

Yeah, there you go. Have some mud. Flinging.

[Emily Haynes]

Goodbye.

[Helen]

Sam.