'If it looks awful, keep going. It’ll work out' - an interview with illustrator Catherine Rayner

Summary

Podcast Summary: “If it looks awful, keep going. It’ll work out” — Interview with Catherine Rayner

The Good Ship Illustration, October 31, 2025
Host(s): Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, Tania Willis
Guest: Catherine Rayner, award-winning illustrator and author

---

Overview

This episode features an in-depth, candid conversation with Catherine Rayner, a celebrated children’s book author and illustrator, about her creative process, daily life, working habits, collaborations, parenting, and perseverance as an illustrator. Catherine shares stories from her career, advice for new illustrators, experiences balancing motherhood with a creative profession, and encourages open discussion about challenges, setbacks, and “keeping going” through messy or difficult stages of a project.

---

Major Discussion Points & Insights

Catherine’s Creative Working Life

• Studio Routine & Team Structure
  • Catherine balances motherhood with running her illustration business, a greetings card line, and a shop, assisted by two team members.
  • Her day starts with the school run, followed by a weekly team briefing and task-planning.
  • Quote:
    “My routine: drop off small person at school, get here and we’re all in. So we have a bit of a catch up, do a brief for the week...” (03:00)
• Studio Setup
  • Prefers a separate studio space (“I don’t work from home”), values physical accountability and structure.
  • Misses the community aspect when not at shared printmaker studios but appreciates the space for assistants and projects.
  • Recurring theme: every week looks different due to travel, events, and book deadlines.

Managing Work, Deadlines, and Organization

• Thriving Under Pressure
  • Catherine and her assistants embrace short deadlines:
    “I actually really thrive on the ‘we’ve got to do this, we’ve got to do this…’” (05:20)
  • Recharges post-events with “half an hour staring at the wall and a Kit Kat Chunky” (06:02)
• Project Management Tools
  • Uses large paper calendars, post-it notes, and markers for planning, prefers tactile, visual methods over digital solutions (Trello tried and abandoned).
  • Quote:
    “This is my technology: a giant calendar with post-its…” (07:14)
  • Finds the post-it approach regulates workload:
    “…it stops you cramming too much in, because it’s like one post-it note is the day, isn’t it?” (09:05)

Creative Challenges & Collaborations

• Drawing People vs Animals

  • Known for animals, Catherine was pushed creatively by illustrating people for Julia Donaldson’s new book, “The Magic Feather”:
    “It’s pushed me to my absolute creative limits because it’s got people in it and traditionally I hate drawing people.” (09:14)
  • Her solution:
    “Just think of them as little animals… and it kind of worked.” (10:25)

• Relationship with Julia Donaldson

  • Warm friendship built through mutual events, publishers, and personal support.
  • Story: Catherine declined an early Julia Donaldson project due to postnatal depression but later got a second opportunity (“The Go Away Bird”).
  • Memorable personal anecdote: Julia’s husband (a doctor) made a house call to fix Catherine’s ear with cotton buds.
    “He cleared out my ears for me and I was like, thanks, Malcolm. And he went, cheerio and left.” (14:20)

• The Joy & Realities of Collaborating with Famous Names

  • The process of pitching for “dream” collaborations, like trying (unsuccessfully) to get Jason Donovan and Kylie Minogue as audiobook narrators.
  • Emphasizes a proactive, not-too-precious attitude about pitching:
    “If I have an idea, I’ll just run with it. I’ll get so excited and I’ll phone everyone…” (18:17)

Career Development & Advice for Illustrators

• On Pitching and Early Career Challenges

  • Catherine and the hosts reflect on the difference between being approached versus cold pitching, and the struggles of breaking in.
  • Key advice for new illustrators:
    • Build up a strong portfolio, learn about SEO, cultivate contacts, and brace for a tough first five years.
    • Quote:
      “The first five years are blooming tough...but if you can get through that… it builds.” (20:41)
  • Gamifying rejection with a “100 Rejection Challenge”:
    • “I think I got to like 36 no’s. But by that time I'd applied for so many different things, I was too busy…” (21:30)

• Resilience and Learning from Failure

  • Catherine shares her own confidence crisis in a tough year:
    “Failures are actually usually a period of massive learning…” (22:47)
  • Cites motivational podcasts (Jim Rohn) as helpful.
  • Embraces the ups and downs of social media, encourages persistence, and cautions against believing online appearances.

Social Media & Practical Tools

• Instagram Strategies

  • Post daily, be responsive, don’t stress over dips in followers or algorithm changes.
  • “It doesn’t happen overnight. Years and years. And there is a good following now.” (23:26)
  • Follow Instagram updates from official sources for clarity (24:22)

• Tech & Equipment

  • Catherine advises renting or leasing essential hardware for business (such as Macs) instead of struggling with outdated tech.
    “Rather than sitting there struggling with an old machine…that’s a false economy…” (27:00)
  • Triple-backs up work across devices and cloud.

Parenting, Motherhood & Creativity

• Motherhood and Managing Guilt
  • Candid about the anxieties and realities of keeping a creative career alive during pregnancy and the baby years.
  • On the pressure to “bounce back”—Catherine describes her own struggles, need for support, and the lack of “normal” in the early days:
    “I just thought my whole career was going to go down the pan because my baby was ill…if only I’d known a bit more, I’d have been a bit nicer to myself.” (28:55)
  • Normalizes using childcare and being kind to oneself.
  • Encourages illustrators-mothers to reach out for support:
    “Any mum got through like any of it is an absolute legend and a superstar.” (35:04)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Perseverance:
  • “Very often I’ll start drawing and I’ll think, ‘This is absolutely rubbish…’, but I just always keep going if it’s looking awful. I will work on this until I am happy with it…I will make this work and I will make it good. So just don’t give up…”
    — Catherine Rayner (36:24)
• On Social Media Illusions:
  • “Don’t believe everything that you see on Instagram as well, where all these people are high-flying and sailing through…there's probably 20 years of experience, rejection, anxiety and all the rest of it in the background.”
    — Catherine Rayner (36:17)
• On Collaboration:
  • “If I have an idea, I’ll just run with it. I’ll get so excited and I’ll phone everyone…”
    — Catherine Rayner (18:17)
• On Motherhood & Guilt:
  • “I just thought my whole career was going to go down the pan…if only I’d known a bit more, I’d have been a bit nicer to myself…”
    — Catherine Rayner (29:10)
• On the Joy of Nursery:
  • “Did you ever think that you were there too much…he’s like, no, I loved it. I made some of my best friends, had a massive garden and loads of Lego.”
    — Catherine Rayner, quoting her son (34:52)

---

Key Timestamps

• 00:27 – Introduction to Catherine Rayner and her accolades
• 03:00 – Catherine describes a typical “chaotic” week and her studio routine
• 05:13 – On thriving with deadlines and “Kit Kat Chunky” resets
• 07:11–09:14 – Planning methods: giant calendar, post-its, avoiding Trello
• 09:14 – Creative challenges in her new book, “The Magic Feather”
• 10:25–15:00 – Collaborating with Julia Donaldson, drawing people, and relationship anecdotes
• 16:17–17:41 – The Jason Donovan/Kylie Minogue audiobook saga
• 18:17–23:09 – Proactive pitching, early career advice, rejection gamification
• 23:26–25:31 – Instagram and social media management
• 27:00–28:24 – Tech investments for illustrators
• 28:55–36:03 – The realities of parenting young children as an illustrator
• 36:17–37:40 – Closing advice: persistence, not believing the “Instagram myth”, and the messy path to success

---

Closing Advice

Catherine’s core message:

• Be patient—illustration careers build over years, not overnight.
• Don’t be fooled by online success stories; setbacks and doubts are universal.
• If it looks awful: keep going; keep working until you’re happy with it.
• Creative success comes from perseverance, learning from failure, and refusing to give up.

Mothers and new illustrators are encouraged to reach out for support—“you’re not alone!”

---

For more, follow Catherine Rayner on Instagram and visit her website (links in show notes).

Transcript

[A]

SA hello.

[B]

Today we've got Catherine Rayner with us which I'm very, very excited. So hello Catherine, thank you for coming on the Good Ship Illustration podcast.

[A]

Hello. It's lovely to be here and to see you.

[B]

I've got your proper introduction here so I'm going to read this out. In case you listening have never met Catherine, you're in for a treat. Catherine Rayner is a multi award winning author and illustrator based in Edinburgh. Her books for children are sold over 2 million copies worldwide, been translated into 35 languages and adapted for television, theatre and musicals. She's written and illustrated 25 of her own books and collaborated with authors including Julia Donaldson, Michael Monpergo and Michael Bond. Catherine's also won the Kate Greenaway Medal in 2009 and since been shortlisted a further six times. Her work has earned numerous accolades in the US and the UK, including the UKLA Book Award, the Book Trust Early Years Award and the Junior Library Guild Gold Standard in the usa. Alongside her publishing work, Catherine runs a successful range of greetings cards and has launched her own babyware collection featuring characters from her books. She regularly exhibits her large scale paintings in galleries across the UK and her artwork is held in collections worldwide. I am very curious as well to hear about what, what an average week looks like in your life.

[A]

It's kind of chaotic at the moment. It's half term in Scotland today. I haven't got my nine year old with us but he's been in the studio with me making comics which is really cute but I don't get much done and then I've got my 14 year old here. He started working for me a little bit. He does, he helps me with my cards when he's on holiday. It's great. So he's actually turned out quite helpful. I remember my mum saying to me when they were babies, one day they'll be helpful people. And I thought not currently.

[B]

When will that happen?

[A]

This is so hard. But the, the week is. I'm quite strict because I don't work from home. I don't think you do either, do you?

[B]

I've got a studio outside the house.

[A]

Yeah, I swapped having a studio outside the house about seven years ago actually. It can't be, it was 2019, it was just before lockdown, which is great. Moved everything out the house into a studio down at Edinburgh Printmakers, which is perfect because there was the printmaking upstairs and I do a lot of screen printing and my studio was downstairs and I loved it. And then we all got sent home within about nine Months, because down happened and I'd already given my studio to our little one because I'd have to move out because we didn't have enough bedrooms. But now I've got my own studio. I moved out of there just over a year ago and have my own space, which is quite big and it's quite lovely. But I really miss all the people who are at the printmakers. But I needed more space because I have two assistants and they come and work here with me. I've got someone here, so my routine, drop off, small person at school, get here and we were all in. So we sort of have a bit of a catch up, do a brief for the week, work out what's happening when, look at the deadlines for the week, which commissions I've got to have completed by the end of the week. Lucy's brilliant. She's worked for me for nine years now, a long time, and she'll sit down and tell me if there's anything that's. I've got to get out in the next couple of days. And then we'll look at a bit of a marketing strategy for that week, or if we've planned it in advance, we'll look at what we'd already planned for that week and make sure that we've got time to do it. Then all the shop orders go out and we get. Well, Eniko does that, liaise with the publishers about events, commissions and artwork and gallery stuff. And then Eniko does my website and sends out all the products that we sold and bits and bobs like that. And then I just panic and flop about draw things.

[B]

Amazing. That must be so good, having that structure of other people. It's almost like accountability, isn't it? Like, oh, we need to get everything sorted because they're here and then on the days they're not there, you can kind of get in your creative zone and not be thinking about the other things.

[A]

Yeah, I really. I find it hard actually, having someone in the studio with me so much because I'm a chatterbox. It's not them, it's me. And we joke about it. I say to them all the time, will you just tell me to shop and get on with my work? And they do. Well, Lucy does, and it's not quite so confident doing it. She's like, catherine, get on with your work, put your headphones on, put your audio book on and get on with it. I find doing commission stuff really easy when they're around, but getting my teeth into my next book, I need pure silence. I don't need any interruptions and I'll just get on with it. They're both off this week because it's half term and yesterday I got so much done, so many ideas, and it was good fun. But every week's so different. I don't know if you're the same. I never know because if you're away doing book tours or you're away doing book festivals or events or library things, the week's turned on its head. So we just have to take it week by week. Really?

[B]

Yeah. Do you pluck in some, like, recovery time after book fairs and events and stuff, or are you kind of just straight back, hit the ground running?

[A]

There's always so much to do. I've realized. I gave him. We were doing this 30 prints in 30 days print release, and he thought I wanted just 30 prints. He didn't realize that I wanted 30 times 10. And he was like, I stayed up all night doing it. I didn't realize. I said, I'd do it for you by this date, but it's taken ages. And I was like, terrible. I was like, kevin, I'm so sorry. And he went, no, I love it. I love a deadline. I love being really busy. And it's the first time anybody ever sort of said it with a positive voice. And I was like, oh, I think I'm the same. I think I actually really thrive on the, we got to do this, we've got to do this, and I've got this coming up. So I don't really book in any relaxing time afterwards. But after an event, I do like to have a kit catch on key.

[B]

That is a good, good shout.

[A]

Yeah. Half an hour staring at the wall and a Kit Kat, Chunky, and then I'm fine.

[B]

Recalibration complete.

[A]

Totally. I do get more and more tired, though. I've noticed that as I've got older, which is something I've realized. I've started saying, I get really tired. I work at half speed for a few days afterwards.

[B]

Yeah, interesting. There is something about a short deadline, though, isn't there? That's like. I always feel like when I'm talking to clients and they say, oh, the deadline's quite tight, I'm like. To be honest, I would be ignoring it until the deadline was close anyway. So if the deadline's close, it's good. It just means I'm going to get it done straight away. So please don't feel bad.

[A]

I do leave things to the, to the end of the deadline. But Lucy does keep me with the commissions, we have a very. We have like a grid of when it's got to be done and when I've said I'll deliver it and when, where it's got to be posted to and if there's a birthday, if it's a gift for a birthday and we like have the birthday plastered in and let's do it.

[B]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

I guess we're more organized than I think we are.

[B]

Yeah. Do you have any like, in terms of like project management technology or software or anything? Is there anything like that behind the scenes or have you got like a whiteboard? This is just my nerdy planning brain wants to know.

[A]

This is my technology.

[B]

A giant calendar.

[A]

Yes. With post.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

So we write out what we need, what we have to do. And we tried out a new thing actually this month which was we went to the pub for coffee and we sat down and we wrote down all the emails and stuff that needed to go out on what needed to be done when between now and Christmas, me and Lucy did it. You write it all on post it notes and then we just worked out which day we needed to do it on to make it work and then you can move it all around and it worked beautifully. And then at the top I wrote down everything that like all the new website ballots that we needed to do and then when we needed to send wholesale emails out, when we needed to send retail emails out, I carry around a massive A4 diary. I write down at the bottom of each day. I try and plan a bit in advance what I'm going to do for my social media and stuff each day. So I just scribble it at the bottom and then if it's going for the week, I stick it in the notes. So it is all, it is all planned out. I tried using that Trello.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I just couldn't. It's digital. I like, I like to be able to sort of see it all and rub it out and scribble it down.

[B]

Yeah, I really. So I use Trello and have a love hate relationship with it because it's amazing. But I feel like part of me wishes everybody was in the same room so we could just have whiteboards and paper. But because my assistant is remote, we never actually met her in real life. We've only spoken on the phone once. But we email like every day so we do everything on Trello and it just means everything's in one place and. Yeah, but I don't really look at it. It's just for them to look at.

[A]

I think that's brilliant. I think maybe wanting to do a way bit more from home because she can. We'll end up using something like that. But currently it's post it notes, highlighters and biros.

[B]

So pleasing.

[A]

Love it. And I'm pleased because I managed to find post it notes with the exact same size as a square in my calendar.

[B]

So good. And I think also the nice thing about a post it note on a calendar like that is it stops you cramming too much in, doesn't it? Because it's like one post it note is the day, isn't it?

[A]

That is very true, actually. Very true. I've just finished a book, a Julia Donaldson one, which has been. Well, it's lovely and it's beautiful, but it's pushed me to my absolute creative limits because it's got people in it and traditionally I hate drawing people.

[B]

I was going to say you don't really. It's always animals in your books, isn't it?

[A]

Not anymore. It's a little girl called Susanna, very sensible name. And it's. Yeah, it's called the Magic Feather. And she talks to lots and lots of birds. I think I drew about 4,000 birds for it. And it took up the time of doing two of my normal books. So I usually manage one and a half a year, like a full one and a bit of the next one. But that's just nearly finished me off. It was so much detail. But the publishers are being so nice about it because I think they feel quite bad because, I mean, you'll see it in a few. Few weeks, few months. So there came a point, I think in July where I was like, I'm not going to. I'm not going to get this finished to do my Frankfurt book. I just need to accept that. And it's one of those things, frustrating.

[B]

I'm going to make sacrifices, but I can't wait to see it. What's it called? Are you allowed to tell us?

[A]

I am. It's called the Magic Feather. The French said to me years and years ago, why do you hate drawing people? Just think of them as little animals. And I kind of couldn't do it. And then this one came and Julia. I'm very close to Julia, I've known her for years and years and she was like, I've darn for you with. With people. And I was like, oh, Julia, Julia, why? And she said, well, just give it a go. You just. This lady, you just never know. You just never know. And you do like a challenge it's like, okay, well, I can't say no because she's been so lovely about it. I'll just. I'll just dive in. I was drawing, going little animals and it kind of worked.

[B]

That's cool. So it's not a human, it's a tiny animal that just happens to look a bit like a human.

[A]

Yeah. With a bit of skin, but loads of hair.

[B]

That's a good way. Hairy people.

[A]

Yeah. Because I love drawing whiskers. I think you can get away with so much when you're drawing animals if you add some brilliant whiskers.

[B]

That's something I love about your work. All the textures and the hair and the fluff. It's always Chef Kiss Song.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

How did you first meet Julia? Like you've just known her from earlier books.

[A]

I first met her. Well, they've got a flat in Edinburgh and so we were at the book festival one night and we sat and had a cup of tea and I just really liked it. We both published by Macmillan, so in the days, the good old days, 15 years ago, maybe more, where they used to publishing Christmas parties and dos and stuff like that, we just got on and I got on really well with her husband Malcolm. He was just a lovely, lovely man. And she asked me to do a book for her many, many years ago. I won't say the title of it. It's done really well and I could kick myself. But I just had Finn, my oldest son, and I was in a really bad place and it got people in it again and I was like, I just can't accept a challenge. I can't. I'm struggling with this new motherhood. Finn was a really, really difficult baby up until he was about three. I can't even remember a lot of it. It was just awful. And I was trying to keep my career going and didn't find it easy at all, so I had to turn it down. Anyway, I still saw Julia quite a lot and I was really worried that I'd upset her because I'd never actually directly said to her, I can't do it. But we still. We'd often be at the same meals and we'd sit next to each other and chat. We just. She's just lovely and we just got on. Anyway, she invited me around to hers just. And I remember I was sitting feeding Sandy and she came over and she said, why did you never do that book for me? What happened? Do you not like illustrating for other people? And I said, oh, I thought you'd have been told I was basically having just had Finn. I was having a breakdown and I just couldn't do it. I'd got really bad postnatal depression. I really regret it. And she was like, oh, I did wonder, I did wonder, leave it with me. And then about six months later she came and said, I've got the go away bird. Would you like to have a look at it? Yes, yes, yes. And whilst it was mid illustrating it, this is quite a good story. We were meant to go out for dinner one night because whenever they were in Edinburgh we'd go out for tea because they are really close to Julio, Malcolm and my husband as well. And they were, they're just lovely people. It's all echoing, I feel dreadful. And he went, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no trouble at all, no trouble at all. We'll cancel it. That's awful. And there's. Don't worry about it. And I was like, thanks for being so sympathetic because it sounds like the most pathetic excuse. Anyway, about 10 minutes later there's a knock on my door and I open the door and there's. There's go. Pulled up on two wheels outside my front door. I was like, welcome, what are you doing here? And he went, go boil the kettle.

[B]

What?

[A]

He said, have you got any cotton buds? I was like, well, yes, but what's going on? He was like, oh, come to fix your ears, cuz he was a doctor. And I was like, this is a bit above and beyond. I'll get a chair. And he grabbed a chair, we got the boiled water, we let it cool for a minute and he cleared out my ears for me and I was like, thanks, Malcolm. And he went, cheerio and left. Did it work?

[B]

Did he actually fix your ears?

[A]

Absolutely fixed it. But he did say, don't you ever do that to yourself. I've been a doctor for like 30 years, I know how to do this. Don't ever put these things near your ears. I was like, oh, we've well and truly bonded now.

[B]

Friend for life. They do say you're not supposed to put anything smaller than your elbow in your ears.

[A]

We reiterated that. Yeah, but he fixed it. And I was like, well, we can go out for dinner now, it's fine, it's fine. Anyway, so that's how we ended up working together. Not through the ear thing, through your.

[B]

Husband cleaned your ears. And her friends were like, maybe you.

[A]

Maybe want to edit though, afterwards.

[B]

No, definitely. That's so nice to know. It's funny because with people where you've heard their Name a lot. And you've seen their books everywhere. You can sort of put people on a pedestal and imagine them not as real people almost, or you forget about them being real people sometimes. So it's nice to hear that.

[A]

You know, it's really funny because we obviously do signings together and I've now witnessed pure starstruckness, which people don't get around me, but sometimes because I'll sign the book first and they're just staring at Julia and then they go really peculiar when they talk to her. And I'm like. I laugh about it. I'm like, julia, they got the thing. And she's like, oh, yes. And some people think that she's. I get really cross because some people are like, well, she didn't really talk to me. I'm like, no, she can't hear. If there's loads of noise in the background, she can't hear. But, yeah, people do get very starstruck, which I find quite funny, because I know very differently to that, so don't.

[B]

Get that at all.

[A]

But it's really funny to witness people literally drop their jaw. We got Jason Donovan to do that, one of the Julia Donaldson ones, Bowerbird, and they're Australian birds. And my editor phoned me and she was so excited. She was like, we've got Jason Donovan to do the audiobook. Child of the 80s, but 90s. Oh, my God.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Scott from Neighbours. I'm in love. It's so, so excited. And then Julie affirmed and she went, have you heard it? And I said, oh, can you get a photo of him with the book? She said, I've got real disappointment for you. He'd cycled to the recording studio and he didn't want a photo taken because he'd got helmet hair and was a bit sweaty. It wasn't for sharing. I just wanted to see it, for personal gratification. Julia rang, she said, have you heard it? It sounds like he can't really be bothered. And I listened to the audiobook and I was like, oh, the intonations are just. He's sort of. He's read it but not acted it.

[B]

Jason. Jason. Jason.

[A]

And in the book the Bowerbird, Bert meets the love of his life at the end of the book. And I was like, we have to get Kylie Minogue. There is only three words. She has to do this. She really has to. So the publishers were like, not a chance. What a wasted opportunity. So I DMed Jason and he never replied.

[B]

I thought you were going to say that you DMed Kylie right. Kaylee pal.

[A]

She didn't accept DM. I tried.

[B]

Oh, you tried. Amazing.

[A]

I love that. It would have been so good. It would have been perfect.

[B]

Yeah. Jason and Kylie, lovebirds.

[A]

Oh, no, literal, literal. My friends do occasionally message me now, it was a few years ago. Have you heard back from Jason yet? Not yet.

[B]

Well, actually, yeah, not yet. You might still reply. You never know.

[A]

I've been binned by Jason Donovan.

[B]

Dumped, blanked. Harsh. Yeah. Is that something you've done quite a lot in your career then? Are you not shy about? I feel like pitching is the wrong word, but like putting your idea, sending your idea to people or approaching people, being like, this would be cool. Because I feel like that's something a lot of illustrators, like myself included and illustrators Inside the Good Ship talk about, you know, being really scared to pitch or they're very worried about submissions, obeying the rules and being like, oh, it's not open. I must wait until the specific window and do all the things correctly. Have you sort of ignored those rules or.

[A]

Well, I think if there's a specific submission protocol, like if you've got to apply to something and fill in a form and send it by a certain date. But generally, if I have an idea, I'll just run with it. I'll get so excited and I'll phone everyone and say, right, we're getting Jace, we're getting Kyle, even Oak. I'm messaging her, I'm messaging her. So let's see how you get on. And then I waste about four hours doing research into who her people are. And then I realized that it's just not going to happen and I've just wasted four hours. But I found out quite a lot about her.

[B]

I don't need to know Kelly Renault. Information.

[A]

Isn'T all sorts, but things like, I've had an idea for a project recently. My agent's actually quite good because sometimes I'll phone and I'll be like, I've write about this idea. And she goes, oh, okay, and writes it down. And then I realize about a week later it was a rubbish idea and I was a bit embarrassed that I even shared it, but.

[B]

But sometimes you just got to get it out, haven't you? And you don't know it's a bad idea until later. No.

[A]

I also have one notebook that my husband bought, which really makes me laugh. He bought it when we. I can't remember where we were, but it's this sketchbook that says I hate my work on. It really makes me laugh. And I Have to remember not to have it in the back of zoom conversations. This is where all my mad ideas go. Like, the things that I think is never going to get anywhere. And if I'm feeling really uninspired or struggling for new character ideas or anything like that, then I have a bit of a look through there as well.

[B]

Genius.

[A]

It's good. What do you.

[B]

It's funny because I used to pitch and have no success and I was like, what is going on? Like, this just. It's heartbreaking. It was for live, like graphic recording, live event illustration jobs. It's quite different. But then once I realized the power of getting my website in a place where clients could look at it and go, huh, this is the right illustrator for us. Like, the energy is so different. When a client stumbles upon my website, finds me and really wants to work with me, versus me coming out of the blue being like, hello, please come. We work together.

[A]

100%. I even find that with card shops and card wholesalers, like suppliers, if I approach them, it's a completely different relationship. Whereas if they found me, they're sort of more invested. Is weird.

[B]

It's much easier, isn't it? Like, feel like when somebody wants to work with you anyway, there's no persuading to do. You don't have to woo them. They're just ready. And you just got to be like, oh, yeah, I'm available, or I'm not.

[A]

I wonder how helpful that is, though, for new illustrators. Because you've got to have the. You've got to start somewhere as well. So you've got to have a bit of that catalog to get to that point. But people ask all the time, don't they? Have you got any tips for new illustrators? And it is. It's so hard when you're setting out. The first five years are blooming tough and I guess the dropout rate for people must be really high. But if you can get through that and get a bit of bit in your portfolio and learn about SEO and get a few contacts and a few people that you can ask for advice, it definitely builds.

[B]

It can really help to gamify the rejection thing as well. Because I did a 100 rejection challenge and that helped so much because then it meant, you know, putting myself out there, applying for things in that, especially in that very early time. If somebody said no, I was like, yes, put it on my chart. Getting closer to 100.

[A]

Were you applying for the jobs or were you? How. How did you find them?

[B]

It was a mixture. So I Would, like, see some work in the wild. And I was like, I want to.

[A]

Do work like that.

[B]

And then just email a magazine or email a person and be like, can I do this work? Here's my portfolio. Like, I want to do work like that for you. And they would not, not reply. But it was even things like competitions that I saw or, you know, like the Sculptor Trail things. I did an uawali in Edinburgh and that was because I actually applied for it. They said no. And then a while later they were like, oh, somebody dropped out and you're next on the list, so you're in. That was really. And I would never have applied for that if I hadn't been doing my game of getting 100 people to say no. And I never, ever hit 100 because it got too busy. I think I got to like 36 no's. But by that time I'd applied for so many different things, I was too busy to take on anything else. So it was. It was magic.

[A]

That's so impressive. I really like that attitude of actually just. Just keep going and just keep putting yourself out there and keep, keep doing it. I was listening. I love listening to Jim Rohn podcasts. He's so motivational.

[B]

Jim Rohn. This is good.

[A]

It's spelled Jim Ron. H R O H N. Okay. Really flat in the morning, which does happen quite a lot because it's so busy and life. Just some days he's just tired and I put him on and he's like, come on.

[B]

Failure is the.

[A]

I've had a really weird year. I moved to studios and those stuff happened. And then the book's taken loads longer than I thought it would. And then I had an exhibition that didn't do as well as they usually do. And it was a real, I don't know, confidence crisis. But you listen to him and the way he talks about failure. Failures on sites about. Is actually usually a period of massive learning.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The last year, rather than sort of wallowing it, I've just learned so much stuff about marketing. I'd sort of neglected my Instagram a bit. And then this last couple of months, I've been like, right, come on back into it now. Come on and re engaging and being nerfed.

[B]

And your Instagram is incredible. Do you have any Instagram tips for illustrators?

[A]

It's such an interesting platform. Reply to comments if you. I mean, sometimes you can't take note of the posts that do really well and do more of that. I post every day. I do a daily drawing every day. But I find that it's quite good because it's like, gives you accountability. People are expecting it. And then if certain things don't do very well, don't, don't worry about that. Just keep it really busy and really honest. I don't put that much of my personal self on there, so I don't tend to get the mean messages. I've had a few, but just ignore anybody that doesn't. Yeah, doesn't like your stuff just. And keep plugging away at it. It doesn't happen overnight. Years, years and years and years. And there is a good following now. And my followers were going down about this time last year and I was like, oh, well, don't really care. You started going up again. It's just all fluctuates and you never.

[B]

Really know what's going on behind the scenes. Like sometimes Instagram are deleting bot accounts and stuff like that. That can look like a big dip in followers.

[A]

I follow the guy who is the moss area or something. He's like the head of Instagram and that's actually quite good. On a Friday, he puts a post out if anything's changing on Instagram and that that's really valuable. It stops you panicking because a lot of the time you see these things and it's like, this thing's changing on Instagram. Click this or your account will do this, that and the other, and he'll come on and go. It was an absolute nonsense. Don't worry about it.

[B]

There's a big thing about like tagging your location and being on maps. Recently wasn't there. And it was like, Instagram knows where you are. And then I think he came on, it was like, everybody, please calm down.

[A]

What really helped me as well is he said a few weeks ago, or whatever he said, everybody's really upset. We've changed from squares to rectangles, and everyone gets cross with us with every change. But what you have to remember is that we are a business too, and the world is changing loads. And so we have to keep developing and changing it because it's an active thing. And I was like, oh, yeah, I really like the squares. But I guess if you're the experts and you feel that as an active platform, it needs changing, then okay, that's fine. Let's not get so angry about this.

[B]

Yeah, people do get so angry when stuff changes as well, don't they?

[A]

They do, and you just got to embrace it. And I used to avoid doing software updates and updating the app and stuff because I hate change, but now I just make sure I just automatically do it and then at least you're changing gradually with it. So there's never this big jolt of loads and loads of things. Even with the latest versions of Photoshop and stuff. Now I always just make sure that I keep gradually updating it so that at some point I'm not going to have the massive.

[B]

Yeah. What's happened? I bought an iPad in 2022 when I was pregnant, used the iPad. It was. I was like, I'm saving this for when my old iPad dies, used it for watching pregnancy Pilates videos and then put it away safely and completely lost it. And then the newborn thing, I was just like, oh, well, the iPad has gone to a better place. I don't know where it is. And we found it this year, like three years later. But it was such an old, old iOS version that it wouldn't let me upload. I couldn't like get YouTube. I couldn't do anything. So I had to really, like overhaul the whole thing.

[A]

Oh, things like phone, mobile phone. I hate getting a new phone, but I've made a promise to myself and haven't done it yet that now this is off the end of the paying for the actual phone thing. Just keep getting an updated one. Because you use it so much for work. Use the camera, I use it for the Instagram. You just keep on top of it.

[B]

It really is a business tool.

[A]

Yeah. And I think I'm really tight with business expenses. I wait till things are on their last legs and they need to not do that because actually it makes your life so much easier if you've just got good equipment.

[B]

It does. Worthy of having a good business tool to help you take nice photos and do high quality videos and stuff.

[A]

Actually something that people might. When I was at the Printmakers, there were some young. Some lovely young people in the studio next to me who did film and tv and they were struggling with an old computer and they didn't know, and I don't think a lot of people do know that you can rent from Mac so you can get a new laptop, but you can pay it off monthly, which is an absolute game changer. This machine, I think I've paid off now, but because I do so many big image files, which many illustrators do, I need a beast of a machine. And I just paid it off monthly and it was fine.

[B]

Just how good at that early days, like got a laptop. So you mean it's like paying it off monthly rather than.

[A]

And I want to credit Or Apple something or other. I think you can't do it as a business, but it's worth looking into rather than sitting there struggling with an old machine, watching the beach, balls spinning around, getting upset because you're going to lose all your stuff off your hard drive and Photoshop won't work properly. Yeah, that's a false economy, really, if you can do it. So, beach ball of doom. Yes. I still get the fear and I think this computer's fine. Squeeze back those memories.

[B]

Yeah, I'm always, like, putting everything into the cloud. I'm like, don't use up my storage. Like, get it offloaded. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I think I keep it on my computer and on the cloud and on an external hard drive.

[B]

Well, triple threat.

[A]

But I don't know if any of it's working. It does things and I think, who knows? I don't understand it. I know I pay Apple 6.99amonth for some kind of storage presume. That's what that is.

[B]

I don't know what it is.

[A]

I've got a few of them.

[B]

I was so curious to hear you briefly mentioned, like, the newborn time and keeping your career going. And how. How was that, like, keeping things going? By juggling.

[A]

Do you know, I'd love to do some kind of voice notes for illustrator mums in that first year to just reassure them, because for me, it was nearly 15 years ago and you didn't have FaceTime or anything like that. And I felt so isolated and I thought my whole career was going to go down the pan because my baby was ill. I also had really bad hyperemesis through both my pregnancies, so I was flat on my back for the nine months of being pregnant. So literally, work just stopped overnight and I was with the first baby, Finn. I didn't want to tell anyone for the first three months because I was pregnant and I think people just thought I'd fallen off the face of the earth and the panics that I used to have, I was like, there's new illustrators coming all the time. No one's going to want to employ me anymore. I need to get back to work. I'll take six weeks off when he's born, blah, blah, blah. And it was a nightmare. And then I got really bad postnatal depression and tried to go back to work when he was six weeks old because I just thought it was all going to fall apart if I wasn't working. And then so we sort of juggled it and I kept going with emails and stuff, but I really didn't manage it very well. Now I look back, I think I was only young, I was, was 28 a baby. @ the time I didn't think it was. But now looking back, if only I'd known a bit more, I would have been a bit nicer to myself and if only I'd known someone who'd gone through a similar thing or I would have not panicked so much. With Finn, we did put him into full time nursery when he was about one and then I went back to working those strict hours. I was just trying to work around and juggle around him and I just panicked that I just wasn't gonna be able to keep my career going. But with. And then we had Sandy five years later and I was like, right, I've done this once. I'm gonna be really nice to myself. I'm gonna tell everyone I'm pregnant from the day I find out I'm pregnant. Because if I'm ill, this is what I decided and lo and behold, I was ill and I've just gotta let it go and just have faith in the stars that people are ill. People do take a break and my career will be waiting for me at the end because I'm going to go back and I'm going to smash it again after I've had some time with him and I'm going to be. And he wasn't an ill baby as well, which made it much better. I've always used, I've always worked full time when, when they've been big enough to work full time. When Sandy was little I had a sort of a child minder that came to the house so that they would come maybe three days a week from when he was quite little and I could catch up on emails and just keep the plates spinning and keep in touch with people. Went to nursery two days a week and then we had Fiona who came in a couple of days a week and it was expensive and I remember paying her at the end of the week and thinking, I'm paying like more than I've earned this week. But I'm keeping it going and everything's going to be fine. And then he did full time nursery and then when they went to school they've always done after school club as well. So I've always kept quite strict working hours but it meant that when I have time off and I get home, I am there. Yes.

[B]

So you can fully transition into like home mode.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you say that but you know what it's like and you're not even in work mode when you've got baby because the phone rings or they're off with a cold or oh and then Covid happened in the middle of all of it with Sandy. I remember trying to do a book, bouncing a three year old on my knee and I won't say which book it is but I've never really liked that book and actually I got the royalty statement the other day and it's the only one that hasn't earned out. Yeah. I was doing literally two things at once. So it's really hard and it's something as women need to message me if you're struggling and you're a new mum and you're an illustrator, I'll talk to you because I'll talk you through it because I just feel like more support around the panic. How have you found it?

[B]

Yeah, it's a tricky one because I feel like people. I found people told me so many horror stories when I was pregnant about how, you know, they were never able. I think I had a lot of fear about like, I'm not going to be able to work, it's gonna take up all my time. So that it was almost. Our daughter started nursery full time, like pretty much full time when she was one as well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I felt really bad and felt like it was too much time and then took it back to less hours but then wasn't getting enough work done. I was just like, how am I supposed to like get work done but also see my child, she's just started big girl nursery like at school. So it's school hours and it's five days a week whereas before it was just three, was it four and a half days a week? And that's made such a big difference. I think just having daily, like having the all five days has helped a lot but I do feel like I drop loads of balls. I don't manage to keep up with everything.

[A]

You don't. But it does come back and it.

[B]

Gets easier and easier.

[A]

Well, I've just said to you, like my 14 year olds here doing little bits of work for me it really does get easier and easier and I think I sort of had this doom feeling that that was it, it was over. I didn't really believe that it would get easier and that you'd actually get your life back in a few years. Not your life back, it's changed for the better but you find a new normal and it's fine, everything's fine, it all works out absolutely fine. Having a baby is bloody hard. I said to Colin one day, my husband, I was like, oh, my God, it's like we're hand rearing kittens or something. Because my friend had kittens and I remember she was up through the night and he was like, yes, you're rearing a human like that.

[B]

We are.

[A]

And the tiredness and the anxiety and. Oh, it's just. Yeah. I loved it when they started school though. And I do still get. Oh, actually going back. We went past Sunday's nursery the other day and I was like, do you remember going there? And he went, yeah. I said, did you ever think that you were there too much because you were there like full time on this girl? He's like, no, I loved it. I made some of my best friends, had a massive garden and loads of Lego.

[B]

Amazing. What more could you want?

[A]

Absolutely brilliant. And he said, and good snacks.

[B]

I think we'll worry so much. Like, this is terrible. But they're actually having an amazing time doing cool activities, baking and stuff.

[A]

I did when they were both at nursery. I'd go in and read to them sometimes and you saw dear as a bit of an insight just to have a nice peek around what actually goes on. And they're having a lovely time with their pals. It's really cute, the little interactions between one another and like the stuff that they do. Like they had a mud pit playing with water and they had like this toolkit and I remember they've got nails and hammers and all this stuff. Really enjoyed it. So. So hats off to. I don't really have any judgment numbers as well. My mum says, oh, so and so has done. Daughter's done this with the baby or so they've put them in nursery from this and the other from too young and blah, blah. And I think I have no judgment. Any mom got through, like any of it is an absolute legend and a superstar. Just give yourself a pat on the back because it's blooming tough, blooming, rewarding. But I just think women are amazing and men as well. There's some amazing, amazing dads out there, but those. That period of time's a bit of struggle.

[B]

It is, but it does get better and better and I think that's a good message. On closing, do you have any final. Putting you on the spot here. Do you have any final messages or a message to leave people with as we close this episode?

[A]

It's not. It doesn't happen overnight. You really have to put the hours in. You have to be really dedicated and don't believe everything that you see on instagram as well, where all these people are high flying and sailing through and getting all these wonderful projects. You always think, oh, God, they're doing so well. And don't believe everything that you see. Everybody's struggling. If you see people that are doing really, really well, it hasn't happened overnight. There's probably 20 years of experience, rejection, anxiety and all the rest of it in the background. It's all a bit of a facade because not on your own. If you're battling with that drawing or trying to get that next job. The other thing that I would say is when I do courses and people talk about my drawings, I'll say very often I'll start drawing and I'll think, this is absolutely rubbish. I'm just going to change bits of paper and it's awful. But I just always keep going if it's looking awful. I will work on this until I am happy with it. I am not going to stop. Even if it takes three times longer than I thought it was going to. I will make this work and I will make it good. So just don't give up if it's what you want to do, if it's a project that you want to finish, get on with it. Don't give up if it goes a bit wrong, just changes direction. These illustrations are like living things. They develop and they move and they have good days and bad days. So just try and think positive and stay motivated. Nobody said it was easy, but it is blooming good when it goes well. Yes.

[B]

That's so good. Well, thank you so much, Katherine. I will put all of your details in the show notes so people can come and find you and follow you on Instagram, see your shop or all the things.

[A]

I hope people get something out of this. And I do mean that if there's any mums that are having bad days who are illustrators with babies that think this gonna get better, please do message it.