'If you keep showing up, you can't NOT get better' - an interview with Sandi Hester

Summary

The Good Ship Illustration Podcast
Episode: "If you keep showing up, you can't NOT get better" — An Interview with Sandi Hester
Date: October 24, 2025
Host: The Good Ship Illustration (Helen, Katie, & Tania)
Guest: Sandi Hester, Artist and YouTuber

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid conversation, the Good Ship Illustration hosts chat with Sandi Hester, a professional artist, YouTuber, and teacher who recently relocated from the US to England. The episode delves deeply into the realities of creative life—handling massive personal change, mental challenges, creative block, perfectionism, and the business side of art, especially through sharing Sandi’s experience documenting her journey online.

With warmth, humor, and unflinching honesty, Sandi shares invaluable insights about creativity, the challenges of pursuing art amidst life’s chaos, and the necessity—and joy—of “lowering the bar” to keep showing up and steadily improving.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Moving Continents, Massive Renovations, and Maintaining Creativity

Timestamps: [00:46]–[06:44]

• Sandi reflects on the enormity of moving from the US to the UK, including renovating a 100-year-old house and adapting to everyday differences ("I spent like 20 minutes trying to find olive oil in the grocery store…").
• Despite upheaval, art remained her “restful place”—she kept creating even during illness, surgeries, and hectic periods.
• The act of creating is presented as both refuge and necessity:

  “Painting was the only thing that gave me a real rest… It's life giving for me.” — Sandi Hester [02:08]

The Power—and Pitfalls—of Mental Chatter

Timestamps: [05:17]–[06:44]

• Sandi discusses the mental aspect of creating, especially the "blobbity blob" of negative self-talk.
• She emphasizes that creators often can’t see their work clearly in the moment because of this, advocating to not throw away imperfect work since hindsight offers perspective.

  “You cannot assess and judge very well in the moment.” — Sandi Hester [05:59]

Developing Creative Habits & Overcoming Perfectionism

Timestamps: [06:44]–[09:13]

• Habit and resilience are recurring themes—Sandi did not always create from a place of ease; it took effort to make it second nature.
• She charts her transition from figurative to more experimental work on YouTube, highlighting the vulnerability of sharing imperfect or 'in-progress' stages.
• Ironically, many followers perceived her artistic shifts as drastic improvement, when in fact she was returning to earlier styles with growth from sheer mileage:

  “You can't create as much as I do and not get better.” — Sandi Hester [08:56]

Documenting the Artist’s Life: Being Vulnerable & Building an Audience

Timestamps: [09:13]–[16:14]

• Sandi candidly shares how YouTube became her platform, choosing it over galleries for its broader, more personal reach—and to lower the barrier for buyers.

• Authenticity is non-negotiable: imperfect studios, messy hair, mistakes, and all.

  “I realized, oh, if I'm going to continue doing this, the ceiling has to come down.” — Sandi Hester [11:49]

• Sharing true struggles (health, moves, creative lows) builds connection and trust, and counters the illusory perfection often presented on social media.

• Creating “a boatload of bad art” is shown as essential to making good work.

The Realities of Art as a Business on YouTube

Timestamps: [16:14]–[20:26]

• YouTube is not an instant success or quick cash generator; it’s a “long game” requiring years of consistency and considerable time investment.

  “It is a full time job… The amount of time I put into filming and editing is massive.” — Sandi Hester [15:05]

• Algorithmic consistency is critical: missing regular uploads can impact business and reach for months or years.

• Sandi resists Patreon and other add-ons, prioritizing her own bandwidth and mental health over expansion for its own sake.

Mindset: Lowering the Bar & Embracing Imperfection

Timestamps: [16:23]–[19:49]

• Both the hosts and Sandi champion the value of starting “imperfect and a bit wonky.”

  “We are so happy that we started imperfect and a bit wonky... If it had started out glossy, I don't think we would have been able to last anytime at all.” — Host [16:41]

• Perfectionism is a recurring villain:

  “Perfectionism is such a killer of so much … It's a killer of joy. It's going to stop you from creating.” — Sandi Hester [17:13]

Teaching Art: Process Over Copying

Timestamps: [18:05]–[19:11]

• Sandi’s online classes and YouTube videos prioritize showing her thinking, not just the finished result—demonstrating problem-solving and creative decision-making.

  “Let me teach you how to work through the thought process and the problems of how to solve a painting…” — Sandi Hester [18:46]

• Learning to think as an artist is more valuable than simply following tutorials for the “right” techniques.

Creative Growth is Inevitable—If You Keep Showing Up

Timestamps: [19:49]–[34:08]

• The business side feels “oil and watery” for many artists, but Sandi emphasizes doing the best you can each week, focusing on authenticity and service over slick marketing.

• Improvement is slow, often imperceptible, but guaranteed with persistence:

  “You have no option but to get better and better. If you keep showing up, you'll improve and you might not be able to see it, but it is happening.” — Host [31:08]

• Sandi strongly guards against negative self-talk for herself and in her workshops:

  “That self talk is not allowed in my head or around me.” — Sandi Hester [31:30]

• Mindset is malleable—over time, you can cultivate positive or even neutral mental habits around creative work.

• Drawing, painting, and making art are recast as enjoyable, even playful, pursuits rather than high-stakes performances.

  “If you're going into brain surgery, be petrified. But you're just practicing drawing a face for the first time. Let's just enjoy the pencil going on the page.” — Sandi Hester [32:37]

The Joy and Long Game of Creative Life

Timestamps: [28:22]–[34:52]

• Instead of racing to ‘arrive’ at a certain skill level, savor the adventure and nervous excitement at every stage.
• The “hunt” of a creative life, experimenting and pushing outside the comfort zone, is to be treasured.
• Fame and fortune are elusive and maybe irrelevant; the real reward is lifelong growth and loving the process.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Painting was the only thing that gave me a real rest from that, a break. I forgot all about the pain.” — Sandi Hester [02:08]
• “You cannot assess and judge very well in the moment.” — Sandi Hester [05:59]
• “You can't create as much as I do and not get better.” — Sandi Hester [08:56]
• “I realized, oh, if I'm going to continue doing this, the ceiling has to come down.” — Sandi Hester [11:49]
• “We are so happy that we started imperfect and a bit wonky... If it had started out glossy, I don't think we would have been able to last anytime at all.” — Host [16:41]
• “Perfectionism is such a killer of so much … It's a killer of joy. It's going to stop you from creating.” — Sandi Hester [17:13]
• “Let me teach you how to work through the thought process and the problems…” — Sandi Hester [18:46]
• “You have no option but to get better and better. If you keep showing up, you'll improve and you might not be able to see it, but it is happening.” — Host [31:08]
• “That self talk is not allowed in my head or around me.” — Sandi Hester [31:30]
• “If you're going into brain surgery, be petrified. But you're just practicing drawing a face for the first time. Let's just enjoy the pencil going on the page.” — Sandi Hester [32:37]

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Takeaways for Illustrators & Artists

• Creative Consistency: The simple act of showing up guarantees growth—even when it’s invisible day-to-day.
• Mindset Matters: Self-talk shapes your practice more than talent or technique.
• Imperfect is Perfect: Lowering the bar, sharing honestly, and refusing perfectionism are keys to both sustainable art-making and audience connection.
• Process over Product: Share your process, not just your highlights—there’s immense educational value and comfort for others in seeing how the sausage is made.
• Business Meets Art: Doing your honest best in both art and business builds trust, community, and long-term sustainability.

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For more from Sandi Hester, find her YouTube channel “Bits of an Artist Life,” her website, Instagram, and Substack (links in the show notes).

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking the real, unvarnished story behind a thriving creative practice.

Transcript

[A]

Hello everybody. Welcome. We have on the Good Ship Illustration podcast. We've only ever done one interview before and that was with Emma Carlisle. Sandy's a professional artist who's just moved from America to England. She shares her life as an artist on her YouTube channel, bits of an Artist Life. She leads painting retreats and also has online classes. Yeah, that's you in a nutshell.

[B]

That's about all I had been with for in this crazy season that we're in.

[A]

Yes, we had a little chat just before I hit record. It sounds like you have got a lot going on, but the thing that I thought would be most exciting to talk about was, yeah, this huge move from the US to the UK and how that's been for you and how that's been playing into your creative work.

[B]

I don't think I was prepared for how big of a change because we speak the same language and there's so many similarities and yet, yeah, big. Just a lot. We took on too much, I think with renovating a 100 year old house that needed fixing up, but it was a full on renovation. Moving country, trying to start up a new business here. Everything from just going to the grocery store and trying to find. I spent like 20 minutes trying to find olive oil in the grocery store that are. Every little thing is just different and new and takes longer and has been quite hard. We've moved eight times now for this one move and my YouTube audience. I don't know how you're still making art in the midst of this, but I do worked on those muscles of creativity for a long time. Like during a lot of seasons of sickness and surgeries and being laid up on the couch for months, I've just worked on creating amidst whatever's going on in life and finding times during whatever's going on. Whether it's I'm sitting in the doctor's office and I'm going to be sketching or having coffee with a friend. I'm sketching like I'm always creating and now it's at a point where I have to have it. It's my release and my restful place. Anybody that does any kind of creativity knows that when you're doing that to me, it's like the only thing I can do in life that gives me a break from all things. So even when I was really sick or recovering from painful surgeries, painting was the only thing that gave me a real rest from that, a break. I forgot all about the pain. I forgot all about the exhaustion when people keep leaving messages or Comments about, I'm just so amazed at your creativity, how you can keep on painting. I'm like, that's what's helping me stay sane. That's what I'm living for. Trying to find those breaks to go do that. It's life giving for me. And I think the reason it's so life giving for me and can sometimes feel not like giving to others is because I have had years of working on the mental aspect of it. I think as creators, creative people, we just have a lot of blobbity blob that goes on in the head as we're creating and we don't recognize how much that's affecting us. So my YouTube channel is almost just all of that. You just get to be a fly on the wall. As I, over the years that I've been a professional artist, just working through those things and working on muscles to think rightly about my creative process. And so it's not as draining anymore. I don't feel like every single piece that I create has to be a masterpiece. It's just, okay, there's another page, there's another canvas. It's just paint. Let's get on with it. For me, like painting outdoors at one of the rentals we were at before we moved into our house. I was in renovation. I was painting in the square down at Exmouth a good bit, and I'd have a crowd around me and I was thinking, oh, it's so nice to be in this place where I could place mentally where I can do this and it not affect me. And it's because I've practiced doing that. Sometimes it started off with just me painting in the car at a park with people around because you still feel, oh, no, they could look in the window and see. But practicing, like those thoughts of pushing those thoughts away, like, it doesn't matter, nobody even really cares. All the things that go into what we're saying to ourselves that make it hard to create and just be freed up. So here I'm out there painting. I have a big crowd around me and I'm able to not get flustered even when a kid comes up. I used to could feel flustered when a kid would come up and want to see and feel all those embarrassments and stresses and. And they'd walk away. And I would think, I barely talked to that kid. Why am I feeling so insecure? This is ridiculous. I would realize those things and think, okay, let's work on this next time. What kinds of thoughts? What kinds of things am I saying? To myself that's making me so insecure with this. Is that what you mean?

[A]

Yeah. Is that what you mean by the mental chatter and the mental mindset stuff?

[B]

Yeah. All the negative talk, all the things that I think, especially as women, we're not very good at realizing that we're constantly chattering to ourselves. And it's rarely ever positive. It's almost always negative and critical and judgmental or what are other people thinking or saying. And so then we. It stops us from creating much. Even if we're just in our house by ourselves creating something, we still bring all that to whatever we're creating. And we really can't even then look at that piece of art or drawing very critically are very good because we bring all of the negative talk into each piece, and so we can't even see it very well until maybe a while later when all that selft talk is quieted or we've forgotten what we were saying to ourselves in that. That's another reason I always tell people, don't throw things away, don't like, because you cannot assess and judge very well in the moment. Yeah. So being in this new area in England, it is so stinking inspiring. That's all I'm wanting to do, is not do any other work. I just want to be out painting. And I am. It feels exciting to be at a place, mentally, where I can be out and paint as much as I want to paint. And. Yeah, we've just absolutely loved it here, and I feel very inspired by it.

[A]

And I think that thing of. It's almost like you are at the stage where you kind of have to create to feel good. But do you feel like there was a point at the start where you just had to get into the habit, or has it always been that way?

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, I think that's. Yeah, everybody starts with all that blobbity Bob, negative talk. And I started realizing, like, oh, I'm not having fun when I get up from drawing or painting. Or I started realizing how much it was keeping me from creating and that a lot of the stuff that I was saying to myself wasn't. I started YouTube when I was in this transition of my artwork where I was leaving more figurative. I've always painted very loose, but I was painting much more figurative. Light and shadow of things set up a still life or painting. When I say figurative, more like the actual object or a person, something that you can tell. And I started transitioning to more of just playing and just a transition in my art. And for some reason, that's when I decided to turn the camera on for YouTube. So then there was a lot of insecurities in that because, yeah, painting this different way, which I'm not very good at, I'm just exploring and playing. And so my audience has followed me from that time on. And there's been times that I've wanted to say, I want to show you what I used to paint, because I really am a good artist. It's just I'm in this transition. And it's interesting because I've actually gone back to that way of painting more figurative since I've been here. Because when you have such a completely.

[A]

Different.

[B]

Landscape than what I'm used to painting, it's a lot harder. And so I just thought, nope, I'm just going to go back to the way I paint and not try to experiment, not try to push it, just paint the way that I paint and paint what I see. And it's so funny because I feel I'm constantly get comments, oh, you've gotten so much better. England has, like, really transformed you. It's just that type of artwork is also much more, like, accepted. And people like, then. Then maybe something a little more abstract. The way that I paint. I do think England has had, you know, I am definitely responding to that. But it's just been interesting how, going back to the way that I used to paint and I mean, obviously I've grown because I've been painting for, I don't know how many years I've been on YouTube now, but you can't create as much as I do and not get better. But it is funny how people are like, oh, wow, your art has just completely changed. And I'm like, it has. And I've just gone back to the way that I used to paint.

[A]

I used to paint like this. Oh, and I would love to know more selfishly, but hopefully other people will benefit from this as well. What it's been like documenting your life, your work on YouTube, and how that's fed in terms of, like, opportunities and building an audience. We talk about building, for instance, a mailing list and things in the illustration business club. And people get a bit shy about showing their face online and they get shy about sharing their life, think it's boring. But I know, like, from watching your YouTube videos, it's fascinating just to see into somebody's world and what they're up to. But I'd love to hear how that's been for you being on YouTube.

[B]

Yeah, it's been great. We decided to go that route and say we. My husband is part of our art business and does a lot of behind the scenes stuff with managing and dealing with our collectors and all the admin stuff that as an artist I have drowned in. But when I started YouTube I decided to go that route instead of the traditional route of galleries and more of a limited route. I felt like I had something to say. I felt like it was something that I could sustain. So it wasn't like, oh, one day I just had something new that as a creative I was constantly growing, constantly changing and felt like I could sustain that. YouTube is the long game. Everybody that I've talked to, different friends, artist friends, are like, I think I may want to do this. I think everybody thinks I'm going to be a success just like that I'm going to be making a lot of money, I'm going to get a lot of audience. And it is just I've been laid out really. This is what it's actually like. I don't know how long I was on YouTube before I even got monetized, but it was a long. I think it was a year or two which you have to reach so many subscribers, so many views. And then even at the views and the subscribers I'm at now, you don't make much money through YouTube.

[A]

But.

[B]

But what it has allowed me one. If you're going to do it, it can't just be because you think a. This is what's going to make me money. It was the way we decided to go for advertising. Basically this is how I want to get myself out there instead of going the Gallery Route 1 because then I didn't have to make my prices for my artwork so expensive. So people got to know me and Grady's Rue YouTube so they trust us and we've really let them into our home and our life. It's called Bits of an Artist Life. That's my YouTube channel. So you get to be a fly on the wall. And it's everything from here's new art supplies to hey, we're moving country, come along with us. Let me tell you the good and the bad, because I do just open our life up like that. And I think when we started the channel, I was going through a lot of health issues. I would like my hair to not look like I stuck my finger in the light socket. I would love the piece of work that I'm showing the audience. I would love it to turn out great and look like I can actually paint. But none of that was happening so early on. I realized, oh, if I'm going to continue doing this, the ceiling has to come down. Because in my life right now, it's down because of health issues. And so the studio is going to be a mess. My hair is definitely not going to look well in normal life. It never looks like I've. I look like I crawled out of the trash can half of the time. And I think the audience really responded to that because I was a real person doing real things, sharing my life, how I still created in sickness or would get ready to create because I knew I had a big surgery and was going to be laid up for three or four months in bed or on the couch, and brought my audience along on those things and was just real honest about it. People really related and it's really been very beneficial. I feel like it's not only been great for business and being able to sell my art, but it has allowed me to speak into people's lives and be a real positive influence. I definitely would not say influencer, but just to be able to say, hey, this is actually what a real artist looks like and functions. We are not making a ton of great art. These are the kinds of things I share on my channel. It's like a real artist makes a boatload of bad art and you have to make a boatload of bad art to get to the good art. Like, you don't make good art without making a boatload of bad art. And the only way I'm going to make a lot of bad art is by working on the way I'm thinking about it. Because if I'm always coming to it, feeling this pressure to make this amazing piece instead of just, okay, I love painting. And I just. Nothing's going to stop me. Like, I just want to slap some paint on and do that over and over and come to that every single day. And that's the mentality I want to have and want to pass on to people. But I think because of the day we live in with Instagram and being able to show the things that you're doing and putting up so much, we're just bombarded with, like, perfect studios and perfect art and perfect hair and perfect artists outfits, all the like, very curated stuff, like, that is not me. Like, I just don't have the bandwidth for it and. And it's just what you get. I also will say this. I am not techie. You could tell that just from us trying to start this, that we were both. You were like, oh, could you do the audio to this? And your Microphone. I'm like, no. The fact that I could even get to this website was a Christmas miracle. I'm not techie. I don't know how I take decent photos of my artwork. Like I am not a pro at anything. Not even close to a pro. I've gotten better over the years at my filming and editing. All of those things were like, like knew I scraped by, I figured it out and I don't know how, but I did just over the years and it's been, yeah, I'm really glad that I've done it, but it has been hard work. Most people don't realize for a 20 to 30 minute video that I put out now every other week. It used to be weekly. I work a full week on that. So I'm in the studio at 7, 7:30 and I leave work 5, 6 o' clock at night. If Grady has a meeting, I'm back in here working. If he's doing something on the weekends, I'm back in here working. The amount of time I put into filming and editing is massive. It is a full time job. I think people think artists are just, oh, we're just flinging paint. We're always in here painting and we're usually doing a ton of admin stuff. There's so much more admin and behind the scenes stuff that goes on. But it is a massive amount of work. People are always like, oh, will you start a Patreon? I'm like, no, I have zero bandwidth. No, I cannot start a Patreon. I'm drowning.

[A]

What are you going to do with all that spare time you have?

[B]

I'm going to like wash my hair.

[A]

But this is so inspiring because I think so many people will benefit just from that mindset of lowering the bar for yourself. And not in a way that makes it bad, but almost lowering the bar just to take perfectionism out of the equation. Yes. When you have it in your mind that you've got to make the perfect piece of artwork and it's only worth being on YouTube if you get over 10,000 views. But really it's just about showing up and being a bit yourself that we always talk in the good ship, we're so happy that we started imperfect and a bit wonky because that's how we are and it's meant that we can keep going because we're like, oops, sorry, we're just humans doing it. But if it had started out glossy, I don't think we would have been able to last anytime at all.

[B]

No imperfect perfectionism in Fact, I've got a podcast episode on my website. I have a list of all the podcast episodes that I've ever done or interviews. And one of them was on perfectionism, the lies of perfectionism. But I think perfectionism is such a killer of so much just it's killer of joy. It's going to stop you from creating. It's very self focused. Also, it really doesn't take and Demine anybody else. It only takes you. Not in. No. And everybody else is just doing the same thing, just looking at themselves instead of thinking about others. I think there's just something about. I'm often like, hey, this is just the best that I've got right now. And it's just gonna have to do in all of my life. That's just how it is a lot of times what people would prefer.

[A]

Because people can get to know you, can't they? Because I'm sure people would much rather hear about the struggles of moving country and relocating and doing up a house versus you being like, I'm in my new house, it's perfect, it's gorgeous. And I've just. Everything's fine.

[B]

Boring.

[A]

Next.

[B]

And that's how it is. What I'm sharing my journey too is with painting. It's just. It is. Even my online classes are like that. A lot of times it's just bringing you along and like the journey of what I'm creating. And I do find as people are able to be a fly on the wall and watch that creative process and really learn what that looks like and sounds like to work through creative problems instead of just here's this amazing artwork I find that people find that is much more educational and helpful than just here, paint like me. It's let me teach you how to work through the thought process and the problems of how to solve a painting or how to solve this color mixing or value or composition, those kinds of things. Far more helpful than just paint by numbers. Here, paint like, yeah, I find that's how when I'm wanting to watch another teacher or learn from somebody, I want to know, how are you thinking about this? Like, how are you getting to that decision? I think that's how my whole YouTube channel and online classes are. It's just let me let you in my brain a little bit. And that's a little messy and so.

[A]

Much more powerful to learn how to think about something rather than just copying something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Straight up seeing what's trendy and copying. That is not gonna be fun for you. It's not gonna be. It's not gonna be like future proof, but if you can figure out what makes you tick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And create work that really scratches that itch or pleases child you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, way more fun.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. It went back to the YouTube thing and I've told my other friends that have always asked me about this might think about the long game. It's very much Feed the beast.

[A]

True. I will say as well, though, like YouTube, I've noticed that videos have much longer shelf life. So like with Instagram, what you get two days, three days. It might reignite two weeks later randomly. But for YouTube, because I, like, in 2021, I made some videos and they still tick along nicely. And that is. It's like a blog post in that respect, like SEO and living there, even though I'm not feeding the beast. But if you do feed the beast, it would feel maybe more like that. And I know you talked a little bit about ahead time because you, before we hit record, you were talking about how you normally have a bit of a buffer, like a window. So you're a week ahead or something, and you've lost that ahead time. Do you feel like that's something?

[B]

I usually try to get ahead a little bit, but especially in the season where we were moving, I knew that it would be really hard to keep that rhythm because I'm working basically for an algorithm with YouTube, Fridays at 4:30 UK time is when I post. And you have to meet that deadline. I think. Twice I've missed a video or pushed it back a week, and it took me a full year to recover from that because our whole business feeds from YouTube. So new people, new subscribers, they're seeing the online classes and the art and all of that. In fact, the last time that I did that was a year and a half ago and I still haven't recovered from it. So that's why I tell people, like, you've really got to think hard about if you're going to do a YouTube channel because it is a feed the beast. If that's how our whole business is set up and that's how we advertise ourselves. Yeah.

[A]

This is blowing my mind. You religiously post at that time every week and that keeps the algorithm happy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Your body said, no, don't do that.

[B]

I think that you have to be really committed. People just don't realize the amount of time that goes into a video. If you're not in the creative sphere, that's your life. You do not realize how much time a creative thing takes. A friend of mine from America, she makes quilts and has a quilt business. And we talk about this all the time, how people may see a 20 minute video and think that's how long it took you to create. And I'm like, I was editing that all week and then the week before that I was filming it. It's a creative business. And so I remember one time I was in a really stressful season. I think we had something coming up and I to get ahead with these videos and filming. And I was really stressed about it. And she was a dear friend and loves me, but she said, sandy, why in the world are you so stressed about your business? Like, you run the business yourself and can't you just. Just push pause? You can. You're making your own schedule. And I'm like, that's. Just because you work for yourself doesn't mean you still don't have deadlines. And I was explaining to her how YouTube works and her whole business flows out of YouTube. That's what we've committed to and created. And so there's these deadlines and just what a big deal it is if I don't make that deadline. And even just the way people respond, like comments and likes, like the algorithm is affected by all of those things. And I'm just not somebody that's, oh, please hit subscribe. And I'm just like, yeah, I don't have the bandwidth for that. Like, I'm not a salesman. Y. I think as a creative, you're either real salesman. Y But most of us lean to the. We just are not salesmany. We don't sell ourselves very well at all. I'm just like, hey, I just. I'm trying to get the video out. I'm trying to encourage people and inspire people. And I don't have the bandwidth to be like, hey, like.

[A]

And subscribe for more.

[B]

Once in a blue moon. I do. That was it for the year.

[A]

Yeah, it does feel a bit. I did. When I was really into YouTube, I did all the things and like the subscribe button would pop up and that I feel with all of those things, they feel really clunky and unnatural and a little bit cringy to start with. But it is all kind of learnable stuff, especially with marketing and selling.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

But I feel like as artists we're really told that it's almost like they have to be separate. Like you can't. I feel like it's difficult for artists to own the artist hat and the marketing sales hat. And when you blend them it feels a bit like oil and watery. Or it can.

[B]

I feel like you do a good job about this, Katie. I think I've taken the mindset of I'm just going to do the best that I can with everything that I do the best that I can with photographing my artwork to make it look like. When you look online, it looks like the artwork. We always hear from people when they purchase artwork. Oh, it looks even better than the photograph, which there's part of me this. You need to get better at photographing and delighting them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think when we lived in America, he did insurance, which is a career where it's usually very much I'm doing in parentheses here, knock on the door. Like, you've got to be very salesman. Y. And he never had to do that. He never had to do the cold calls. He never had to do the door knocking kind of thing, because he just took really good care of his clients. He did the best that he could. In fact, he often talked himself out of a job because there was a better avenue, maybe the government or whatever kind of thing. And so those clients were always recommending him and referrals in that way. And I've really taken that mindset like, let me just do the best that I can. Even the ceiling is very low. And this is the best video that I can get out this week, which often those are the ones that do so good. Which I think I'll put a video out. I'm like, I barely did any editing. There wasn't many B roll. It was just this. And people are. And it does good. I'm like, basically, I have no idea what's good. I just need to, for that week, do the best that I can and do the best that can with Instagram, do the best that I can with my painting. And that best is often not a 10 on the scale of 1 to 10 because of whatever's going on in my life or health. And I found that over time, I grow in those things just by keeping at it. I just naturally grow. And that people do respond to that. They see that I'm staying the long haul. And what I do, it's not about just business and money for me that I'm thinking of others. I want something more than just to be a famous artist. And I would like to make sure I pay the bills. But I'm committed to it. I love what I do, and I think that's infectious that people see that and they also learn how to do that from me. When the things that I share about it, and I think it's a lot like what y' all are doing, that there's business involved, and so you're doing that. You need to pay the bills, but there's also thinking about your audience and just doing the best that you can each week with whatever that avenue is and working hard to enjoy it. Not all seasons of my life am I able to enjoy all that I'm doing. Grady's constantly in seasons like this where I'm really stressed, and it's very tiring. It's very hard to do what I'm doing. He's like, let's hire somebody to edit. And I'm always like, no, it's just not going to be the same. There's something of me in that, and I want that for my audience. Or Grady's just always a rescuer and trying to fix if I'm drowning a little bit. I think there's a way to do business and not feel like you have to just do awkward advertising. I think there's something about staying the course, doing the best that you can in each of those things, not killing yourself. And a lot of times, what. Doing the best never even feels like the best. It feels basically, I'm a piece of bubble gum underneath the chair, and this is all I've got to give you. But this is what I have this week, and just stay in the course and doing it, and you grow in all of those things, whether it's your illustration skills and making a book, or for me, painting and editing and all of those things. Over the long haul, you get better and better, because creatives, we forget. I don't know what it is, Katie, about creative stuff. I think it's because as a child we would create, and it felt so good, and we didn't think much about it. Maybe it got put up on the fridge, but, like, we just loved the crayons on the paper. And so then when we come to something creative as an adult, we think it should feel that way, but our identity is so wrapped up in it, and we feel the eyes looking that it doesn't feel that way anymore. And it feels like it should be easy, but nope. No other career. A doctor does not just, like, he trains or she trains. There's a long time of training, but. And that skill gets better and better over time. And as creatives, I think we think it should be easy and we should be amazing right out the gate.

[A]

Yeah, definitely.

[B]

And it's just not that it doesn't work that way. And so we also forget how much fun the journey is as I'm getting older. I'm 50, I'm turning 51 at the end of this month. And my skills as an artist get better. I'm starting to have this fear of, oh, no. Not that I'm going to be ever perfect, but I'm realizing how much fun the journey of it is. The getting a new supply and figuring it out, or, ooh, this new landscape. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. And just the. Or even sometimes the being out in public and painting, the adrenaline of it is, oh, yeah, I forgot how much fun this is. Like, the days that I get nervous, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's such an adrenaline rush. And I remember how fun this is to feel adventurous. And there's something about, in parentheses here, the hunt. It's the packing up my supplies and the kind of nervousness as I go out and whether I make a good painting or not. You know, I'm exhausted when I get back, and I think, oh, I'm never doing that again. That drained me for three days. And then I'm like, okay, that was funny. I'm gonna go do it again, like, the next week. And there's just something about the process of it as you grow and your skills get better. And whatever you were doing, whether it's making a picture book or a painting, it's like those skills now are a little bit easier, and so you're able to do them with a different kind of precision and enjoyment. But at some point, you start turning where those skills are pretty easy. And there's part of me that just wants to tell people, don't rush it. Enjoy the process as a creative. Hopefully. It's like your whole life, we've got a profession that we hopefully get to do till we die, and we only get better. You might as well just enjoy the journey, because you're not going to probably be too famous or make a lot of money until you're gone, and then you're not going to care about it. So my biggest advice is just stop stressing so much about it. Enjoy all the nervousness and the not knowing, and just come to that page, wherever you're drawing or the canvas, and work hard at enjoying the pencil going across the page or the paint sliding across, and just work on enjoying the process instead of getting to where you think that you want to go. Because I will tell you, you never land where you think you. If I could paint so. And I could make books, like, so. And you're never going to get there. And if you do get there, you're not going to even know it because then your bar has moved to something else.

[A]

That's something.

[B]

It's.

[A]

The annoying thing is you can't really see your own work, can you? I'm always amazed if you've been working in a sketchbook or doing any illustration or drawing or creative thing. And then you look back, even like six months, you look back at it, you're like, I've improved so much, but I still feel the same. And it's like you can't feel the improvement, but over time, it is gradually getting better. You have no option but to get better and better. If you keep showing up, you'll improve and you might not be able to see it, but it is happening. But that's the hardest thing, like the mental thing of just showing up. Even when you're like, oh, it's still bad.

[B]

Yeah, I'm like the. In fact, people friends, artist friends, or even kids, if we go out painting, like, I don't allow that kind of talk. Like early my days, like, when I would have any of that. It's nope, zip. Oh, okay. Not allowed to say that. Nope. Get that. Self talk is not allowed in my head or around me. If I'm doing a workshop or something, I'm like. And somebody's. Oh, it's. I'm like, okay.

[A]

We can pause, have.

[B]

That kind of talk. It is not. Nothing about it is helpful, though.

[A]

And it's even just being aware of it is such a big thing. I think for most of our lives, especially maybe just in your 20s and things is when you're not really awake yet and you're like. And then one day you're like, I've been talking horribly to myself. No wonder I feel miserable. Like, realizing that you're doing that and then either swapping out for saying nice things to yourself or making up nice stories about what's happening.

[B]

Yeah. Because I don't think people think of it as a muscle. Like, you've been working hard at that negative self talk and that sift of things, which is never true. It's never fully true. And we have to work that muscle of once saying no to that and stopping that but then changing the story. I don't really even have any self talk anymore when I'm creating it. Just. Oh, I just love this. This is so fun. Because that's what I worked on for years and my YouTube channel was going on while I was trying to just enjoy the creating. We have the best jobs in the whole world. I had posted a video on how to do faces, like measurements and just very simply how to draw a face. And I had a friend of mine who messaged me. She was a neighbor down the road and she said, I'm about to do your face video. Your face class. It's a YouTube, so it's not really a class, but she called it a class. She said, what extreme word did she use? It was something worse than, I'm so nervous. I'm petrified or something. I was like, listen, if you're going into brain surgery, be petrified. But you're just practicing drawing a face for the first time. Let's just enjoy the pencil going on the page. Nobody's going to see this. We just. I'm like, what is going on? We're doing art, people.

[A]

It's fun.

[B]

Yes, it is fun. But when your identity is so wrapped up in it and you feel like with each one, this is how the world's going to judge you, that's a lot of. Of weight. Yeah.

[A]

It's a lot of pressure to put on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And social media doesn't help because people likes and things.

[B]

Yes. But it starts in your studio or it starts at your table, wherever you are. Like, once those muscles get big, it doesn't matter. By the time you get to Instagram.

[A]

That'S what you want to aim for. Detaching your self worth from any of that nonsense. That's all it is. It's just robots at the end of the day.

[B]

I was surprised you'll have a painting artist come on, because I know it's very illustrative. Y' all are all illustrated, which I do feel like those cross over very much. Those disciplines and careers cross over quite a bit. But hopefully the artist talk still crosses over into that audience.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. I've got a lot from this chat, selfishly. So thank you. That's really inspired. And even just that thing of lowering the bar, if you're gonna do YouTube, you've got to commit to it if you want to see results from it, which makes. Makes total sense. But just thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your story.

[B]

Oh, it's been fun. I just love Yalls podcasts. I think y' all are just doing a great job and have that mindset of the audience that's listening and being help and encouragement for me when I'm listening to podcasts like that, it's reminding me like, oh, yeah, this is what my own audience gets out of it. So, y' all just keep doing what you're doing and just want to encourage you in that because I love Yalls podcast, has been listening to it for years and years. So when you reached out, I was like, I didn't even know y' all knew how I existed or who I was.

[A]

Thank you so much. We have so much fun doing it and this is really exciting to be doing interviews. So yeah, I'll pop all your links in the show notes. So if people want to go and say hello to you on YouTube or your website or Instagram, all that stuff, you've got a sub stack as well. You can go and check that out. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sandy.

[B]

Thank you. Katie.

[A]

Ram.