Nice illustrator loneliness & working from home

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Good Ship Illustration

Episode: "Nice Illustrator Loneliness & Working from Home"

Date: September 12, 2025
Hosts: Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, Tania Willis

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into a core issue for illustrators: feelings of loneliness and isolation that come with working from home. The Good Ship Illustration hosts—Helen, Katie, and Tania—share their personal experiences in navigating solitude, weighing the pros and cons of creative solitude versus studio camaraderie, and highlight strategies illustrators can use to cultivate connection, whether in-person or online. Listener questions inspire candid conversation and practical wisdom, peppered with humor and warmth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reality of Solo Work

• Loneliness as an Inevitable Companion
  • Illustrators often work alone, which can feel markedly different from other professions.
  • Studio environments with friends are envied but can come with their own challenges.
  • Helen shares a personal story:

    "I spent 25 years in Hong Kong working in a corridor on my own on an island, and there were no other illustrators around. And I was so lonely that I think that was one of the major reasons to move back, just to be in a world with other people..."
    [00:59]

2. Community and Collaboration

• Finding the Right Community

  • The importance of community, even if sporadic—regular chats and occasional meet-ups can be enough.
  • Tania notes:

    "Community is really important. I really like working from home... but I would go mad if I didn't do other stuff."
    [01:23]

• The Perils and Perks of Shared Studios

  • Many have tried and struggled with shared studios due to distractions and need for privacy.
  • Tensions can arise, even with loved ones (e.g., Tania and her partner Jerry needing separate studios after years of sharing):

    "We just get together to eat. We get together to go for walks, but we're working separately. And it. Oh, it's so much better, I think."
    [02:56]

3. Solitude vs Socializing

• Balancing Solitude and Connection

  • All three hosts agree that the need for solitary creative time is real, but balanced by intentional social interactions.
  • Katie observes:

    "In my mind, I'm like, oh, it's a bit lonely. It'd be nice to be working in the same place as other people. But... I felt really self-conscious. I don't even know why... I felt like my energy wasn't right because it was all wiggly..."
    [04:28]

• Customizing the Workspace

  • Private workflows and the importance of a closing door, both literally and figuratively, for focus and comfort.
  • Tanya jokes:

    "Maybe having a door that closes is the key. Yeah."
    [06:01]

• Tricks to Separate Work from Home

  • Putting everything needed for work in the studio to avoid blurring lines.
  • Katie:

    "Yeah, I've got a big computer at studio and I used to be naughty and bring my iPad home sometimes. Well sometimes I do if I've got a job on and I don't want to go to the studio."
    [10:05]

4. Online Connections — A Double-Edged Sword

• Social Media as a Virtual Water Cooler

  • Instagram and similar platforms can provide community but may feel hollow at times.
  • Katie:

    "Online communities like Instagram, I feel like it's my water cooler... But I think sometimes, because it's weird, you think you're getting community and having a good time, but then afterwards you actually haven't."
    [11:08]

• Forming Real-Life Connections from Online Groups

  • Online leads to offline: Sketch groups, regular Zooms, and illustration challenges help build tangible connections.
  • Helen notes:

    "...all that time that you invest in online, building a kind of online connection, it really does pay off... Even if you only drop the odd question into an Instagram feed, you are ultimately connected with them.”
    [12:43]

• Local Meetups and Sub-Groups

  • The Good Ship's Facebook group has spawned regional meetups and special interest groups, showing the potential for fostering community online and offline.
    [13:15]

5. The Uniqueness of the Illustrator’s Social Life

• “Nice” Loneliness and Selective Socialization

  • The hosts differentiate between negative loneliness and the positive, freeing solitude that creative work can offer, punctuated by chosen social interactions.
  • Katie:

    "Like, it is lonely, but it's nice lonely. And then you get to meet people in between and it's not lonely."
    [16:49]

• Why Some Never Adjust to Group Studios

  • Individual temperament plays a huge role; some never adapt to large, bustling studios, even when young.
  • Tanya:

    "I was no good at that when I was young. Really bad. Couldn't do it."
    [21:10]

6. Communication with Clients and Creative Relationships

• The Role of Zoom and Face-to-Face Connection

  • Video calls humanize collaborators and alleviate the isolation of solely email-based exchanges.

  • Helen:

    "If all clients began projects with a zoom and you're like, oh, they are a real person, not just a name on an email, that would make projects better."
    [17:04]

  • Tanya echoes:

    "I really like going to see the publisher at the beginning of a project, then having some zoom calls as it's going along, chatting on WhatsApp, sending pictures of the dogs... I think I'd find it very difficult working from home if the brief came by email and the changes. And it would be really hard."
    [17:42]

• The Danger of Misinterpreting Written Communication

  • Working alone can lead to negative interpretations of brief, neutral, or critical feedback.

  • Katie advises:

    "Assume positive intent."
    [19:50]

  • Tanya expands:

    "Basically your whole life is just the stories you tell yourself about what's happening around you. And that blew my mind because, like the facts are always very boring..."
    [20:24]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Helen: "If this is what it takes to be with other people, I don't think I want it because, A, I can't draw cartoons... So anyway, he called me in and said, come and work in the offices for three months while we redesign the newspapers... But the moment I got there, I could not work with other people present."
  [03:06]

• Tanya: "I just felt as if I was being really... not. My hairdryer would be really noisy for a minute or two and then I'd turn it off and people would chat in. And if one person made a cup of tea, they'd ask everybody else if they wanted before you knew it was a chat. I just couldn't do it."
  [05:33]

• Katie: "It's definitely. Be careful what you wish for, though. Because I was like, oh, I hired an assistant last year and she was local... But I just realized it was just. It was a studio thing again. Like, somebody's in my space. I can't get anything done."
  [14:44]

• Helen: "The answer to studios is just get one with a door."
  [20:59]

• Katie (on client emails): "They're just saying like, hi there, these things need change. And you're like, hi there, these things need change because you are a terrible illustrator. And I hate everything you ever draw..."
  [19:23]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:49 — Listener question: How to deal with loneliness working from home
• 02:56 — Decision to separate workspaces at home for the sake of sanity and relationship
• 04:28 — Shared studios and the challenge of working with others in proximity
• 11:08 — The online “water cooler” — pros and cons of online illustrator communities
• 13:26 — Emergence of local and online illustration meetups via Good Ship community
• 17:04 — The power of Zoom for mitigating isolation with clients
• 19:50 — "Assume positive intent" as a mantra for remote communication
• 20:59 — The consensus: studios with doors suit the need for both privacy and proximity to others

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Tone & Atmosphere

Witty, warm, honest, and occasionally irreverent, the hosts speak candidly about their struggles and joys, punctuating their advice with personal anecdotes and laughter. Their camaraderie shines, illustrating how even industry veterans wrestle with the balance between independence and connection.

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Summary Takeaways

• Loneliness is common among home-working illustrators, but can also be enjoyed as positive solitude.
• Deliberate social connection—online or offline—matters, but not all forms are created equal.
• Personal work habits should guide workspace choices: privacy, flexibility, and selective socializing trump trends.
• Online communities help but can also leave one feeling emotionally undernourished unless action leads to real connection.
• Communication with clients and colleagues is richer with face-to-face (even virtual) interaction.
• Assume positive intent in correspondence to avoid misreading feedback and spiraling into self-doubt.
• Ultimately, there’s no single answer—the key is knowing yourself, your needs, and what setup lets your creativity flourish.

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For illustrators: You are not alone in your solitude. Find (or create) the touchpoints that make your process both productive and fulfilling—whether that’s a studio with a door, a DM on Instagram, or walking the dog and chatting with the neighbor.

Transcript

[Host]

If you'd like to feel a bit less about the business stuff and more confident about earning a living from illustration, then you might just love the free workshop that we've got coming up. It's called the Illustrator's Income Atlas and it's happening live on Wednesday 24th September at 1pm UK time. You will leave with a nice straightforward income plan, a little sketched out map for yourself that you can stick on the wall and fresh ideas for your illustration career. You can save yourself a spot at www.thegoodshipillustration.com atlas.

[Helen]

It'd be to see you there.

[Katie]

An anonymous question says, how to deal with feelings of loneliness when you work from home by yourself a lot, which is life as an illustrator.

[Helen]

It's very different from other people's lives, isn't it? I always envy people who've got their own studio with friends around them. I think I spent 25 years in Hong Kong working in a corridor on my own on an island, and there were no other illustrators around. And I was so lonely that I think that was one of the major reasons to move back, just to be in a world with other people. And then I found you too.

[Tanya]

It has been so good working together, hasn't it? It's been so nice because we're all illustrators and we work alone in our separate spaces a lot of time and then we get together. It's lovely. Community is really important. I really like working from home. I've tried sharing studios and I'm. I'm just too easily distracted. I really love a chat and I'm just really easily distracted. So I work from home because I enjoy the solitude of it, but I would go mad if I didn't do other stuff.

[Helen]

Yeah, because, I mean, Jerry's an illustrator as well, your husband. So you would never be entirely alone. Have you ever been in a situation where there's only usually laughing? Because I called Jerry your husband.

[Tanya]

No. Well, yeah, that is really weird. I never call him my husband.

[Helen]

When I said it, I thought, that's such a weird thing to say.

[Katie]

Your spouse.

[Tanya]

Your partner, Mr. Helen. Yeah, I know. I'm laughing because. So we sat next to each other at Glasgow School of Art, didn't we, Tanya? And you were our tutor. And then we left art school. We lived in various flats in London, mostly around Hammersmith and Shepherd's Bush. The flats we so small, we always shared a space. And then we moved up here and we shared a space. Well, this must be like 25 years in when we suddenly decided we could not do it one more day. We just couldn't share a space anymore. It worked really amicably for years and years and years. And then I found I just had to put my headphones on every day because Jerry started talking about politics all the time, and I couldn't take it. He knows. I mean, we had to talk about it. It was really bad. I was like, either you need to shut up or I'm putting my headphones on. No, this isn't working.

[Katie]

Now.

[Tanya]

We need separate studios, and that works brilliantly. We just get together to eat. We get together to go for walks, but we're working separately. And it. Oh, it's so much better, I think.

[Helen]

If you get the right answer to the loneliness or the annoyance of having your partner in the room with you. I was like. When I was working on my own, I worked a lot with one art director at the South China Morning Post, and when they needed to redesign it, he said, right, come in and be part of the team. I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to be part of the team. Not just one of those, like a little weirdo in a box that they occasionally asked to illustrate things because they did invite me to Christmas dinners with all the other journalists who knew each other really well, and the art department, and they didn't know what to do with me or what I look like either, because I was this invisible contributor and they would ask me to do cartoons of people at the Christmas dinner. I'd be like, if this is what it takes to be with other people, I don't think I want it because, A, I can't draw cartoons. And the art director was so glamorous. If I did something terrible about her in a drawing, I mean, that really would not be good for business. So anyway, he called me in and said, come and work in the offices for three months while we redesign the newspapers, and you're going to be the visual and color. So I did all the color palettes for them and worked out all the imagery. But the moment I got there, I could not work with other people present. I felt like someone was looking over my shoulder. No one was looking at the screen, just me. So I had to wear headphones for the entire three months and not talk to the people I'd been looking forward to working with because I was like, this is weird. Working with other people was so alien.

[Katie]

I was gonna say, like, that. I really like working alone because of that. So I think in my mind, I'm like, oh, it's a bit lonely. It'd be nice to be working in the same place as other people. But even so, when I was at college, I did an internship at a graphic design place and I was really excited. I was like gonna be working with loads of people. And then we sat. It was like an open plan thing with all the graphic designers and whatever. It was awful. Like just I felt like I couldn't work because.

[Helen]

Exactly. You can't work.

[Katie]

Yeah. I felt really self conscious. I don't even know why. Like, I felt like my work was fine and things, but just people watching was really distracting. And I felt like my energy wasn't right because it was all wiggly and then. And the same thing. Like me and Cameron shared a studio, but he was never home. But then lockdown happened and he was home all the time. And I think it was like December of lockdown. So like it did whatever April to December is and then was like, I'm.

[Helen]

Going to kill you.

[Katie]

I need my own space. So I got the smallest studio I could. And now I really like working alone. But I think if you're strategic about who you spend time with, like, I like you two a lot.

[Helen]

But that's good.

[Katie]

Just anyone not good.

[Tanya]

Maybe it's good. Your studio setup is good because you can close the door. So you go into a place and there are other people there, but you can close the door. Yeah, that's true. Because I think that's what I would quite like. That I really like being at home. But when I shared a illustration studio, the same as you two, I was in a room with other people and I used to. I use my hair dryer a lot during my work. So I make a layer of work and I'll use the hair dryer to dry it. And I just felt as if I was being really not. My hairdresser would be really noisy for a few a minute or two and then I'd turn it off and people would chat in. And if one person made a cup of tea, they'd ask everybody else if they wanted before you knew it was a chat. I just couldn't do it. But maybe having a door that closes is the key. Yeah.

[Katie]

Knowing people are nearby so you're not alone and also just not doing the dishes all the time. I don't know. You seem to have a good separation between work space and home space. I just get distracted and don't do any work at home.

[Tanya]

I'm not really sure how I navigate that. I definitely do get distracted by stuff in the house. Sometimes I feel like I Need to be distracted for a little bit and take my mind off the problem and go and do something else for a while. And that might be pottering about doing something in the garden or something. I really love being at home. The only thing that's ever tempted me is that there's a possibility there are going to be studios literally a minute walk from my house. If it was any further, it would be a solid no. But a minute from my house is really tempting and there will be doors that close.

[Katie]

You could go in your slippers perhaps.

[Tanya]

Yeah, I could walk around in my pajamas in the middle of the night. So I might be tempted by that.

[Helen]

You see, the loneliness is a weird thing and all that. Be careful for what you wish for thing because it is a really isolating career, especially in the beginning when you can't really afford studios and given the cost of property, particularly in London and other places like that, I think the studio experience we had when we were younger is very difficult for new illustrators to replicate now economically. So you're always going to be slightly working at home. And I think back to our first studio. There was six of us in this massive room which was on the first floor in Shoreditch High street, right opposite the church. We had Rob Ryan in there, Bruce Ingham, Marion Descharres, Rosie. I can't remember Rosie's second name, but somehow we all kind of got on. But there was a level of tolerance that people would extend to each other. Either you'd work with headphones on or you not say too much and get. Eventually it would settle down to a quiet, productive, don't talk too much environment. But I don't know whether you can do that anymore. And then you grow out of it. Like you say, if you do those. The lonely years at home on your own, then if you get offered a studio, you can get really picky and think, oh, I couldn't work with hair dryer girl, she'd drive me nuts.

[Tanya]

Or that's it. When I'm thinking about the possibility of moving into this studio that might open around. Not even around the corner, it's one minute straight walk. I think, what about the other people? What if they get on my nerves? I think I'm so. I'm just so used to being in my own space. I don't get lonely. I'm definitely can.

[Helen]

But they're. They're going to be rooms that you can shut the door on. You kind of think that's maybe the perfect answer to know people are there. You have a common Area like a kitchen. So if someone's taking time out of their studio with a kind of. I'm up for talking. I have a mug of tea here, come and sit down and chat with me because I've just got new studios up the road. Well, I've got my first real studio in 30 years and I feel super grateful and it's not too big, not too small, it's warm, I've got a view of a tree, I can shut the door. So lots of fine artists around me so I feel like the naughty commercial person.

[Tanya]

It sounds perfect. And it's just a minute walk from your house, isn't it?

[Helen]

Yeah, you just walk up the walls as well. Looking at the sea. The walk is unbelievable. When I came back on Sunday I thought I cannot believe my luck. So next up is break the habit of a lifetime from sitting in my studio and going to work in the place. Which is sounds really easy but I'm so struggling I think I have to take the big computer up there so there's none of this morning. Start the morning fiddling around, reading emails and then suddenly it's two o' clock and you haven't gone to the studio. So you like. Was it you said katie it's like taking your makeup and cosmetics back to your boyfriend's and leaving it there.

[Katie]

Did I say that?

[Helen]

I think you said that. You said committing with the big computer and that's it. This is where I.

[Tanya]

Do you have everything in your studio so you can't work at home?

[Katie]

Yeah, I've got a big computer at studio and I used to be naughty and bring my iPad home sometimes. Well sometimes I do if I've got a job on and I don't want to go to the studio. Like if, if my daughter was at home like when she was really little she'd be napping and I'd work at home. But yeah, just everything's at studio. I have emergency laptop at home but that's it. And also like cloud storage is really helpful because it used to be like oh that's on my other computer. Oh I've done that at home. But because it's all in the cloud that is really useful for just nipping back and forward digitally. What about the online thing for loneliness? I think that's a bit of a double edged. So like online communities like Instagram, I feel like it's my water cooler. So if I'm working by myself all day I actually love working by myself. I have a great time, I'm brilliant company. But then I'LL be like, oh, what's everyone doing online? And it feels like just popping into a kitchen where everyone's hanging out and seeing what's going on. But I think sometimes, because it's weird, you think you're getting community and having a good time, but then afterwards you actually haven't.

[Helen]

It's not very nourishing, is it?

[Katie]

Because it's not real.

[Helen]

Fake.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

I don't know.

[Katie]

What's your thoughts?

[Tanya]

I really like looking on Instagram. Obviously it can turn into scrolling, which feels mindless. And my brain goes to sponge. And then I can't work because my brain's now sponge, so I have to be careful. I like that a lot of the people I've met on Instagram I've then met in real life. That's been nice. I think when I think about every day. I don't need to see an illustrator every day. It doesn't have to be an illustrator. It can be a chat with the lady over the road who brings us eggs from the farm. Do you know what I mean? I don't feel like I need a community of specifically illustrators, as long as there's people to talk to every day. Taking dog for a walk or, you know.

[Helen]

Yeah. Having real chats with people feels so nice. Well, that's how it was when I was living in Hong Kong. There were no illustrators around. The only people I spoke to were just regular people. And I used to look at Britain from afar and think, look at them all having a lovely time together, knowing each other, running around, having parties called.

[Tanya]

E Tabs, running down the beach.

[Helen]

So I used to put things online in a kind of desperate attempt to wave. Hi, I'm over here. I'm quite lonely. But it didn't really amount to much. But then being back now, I realize all that time that you invest in online, building a kind of online connection, it really does pay off, because I remember writing to Andy J. Pizza from Hong Kong saying, I want to buy your print. It's so lovely. And I thought about him the other day and thought, that was 15, maybe 20 years ago.

[Tanya]

Wow.

[Helen]

And then he's always been in the ether around us. And that is a very real community, that illustrator community. Even if you only drop the odd question into an Instagram feed, you are ultimately connected with them. But the nice thing about the Facebook groups as well, for Good Chip, is lots of people say things like, is there anyone in Norfolk, is there anyone in Scotland who wants to go out drawing? And now that loads of little groups have formed like good ship sketches groups. And they meet up quite regularly.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Helen]

And I've no idea how many they are, but I know I've seen lots of call outs. People say, yes, we'll meet up again. So now they've gone off on their own into little subgroups, which is so nice.

[Tanya]

I was talking to somebody the other day who's done good shape courses, forgotten who it was, now a picture book person. And there's about five picture book people who have this Monday morning chat on Zoom.

[Katie]

Is it pencils on toast?

[Tanya]

Yes. Yeah, Pencils on toast. So Sam. I can't remember. Bedroom floor production. Lovely. Sam and a group of other illustrators have a little chat once a week. And the walk to see hashtag that started years and years and years ago. Loads of groups of people meet up to go and do walk to see drawing challenges.

[Katie]

I think that's when the Internet makes you feel less lonely, when you're really interested in something and other people are interested in it too. And you can talk about it together, like directly, like in comments or in direct messages, but it does.

[Helen]

It's definitely a strange kind of life. There'd probably other people, like blacksmiths or I don't know, who work on their own and have to find their own clients and maybe go to blacksmiths fancier meetups.

[Tanya]

Shall we find the local blacksmiths and see if they want to hang out?

[Helen]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Are you lonely?

[Helen]

Find all the people with the lonely jobs because we can sit here, mither and go, it's a lonely life being an illustrator. But they are. I'm sure there's plenty of other, like, coders. I don't know anyone coding. I'm alone on my canal boat coding.

[Katie]

It's definitely. Be careful what you wish for, though. Because I was like, oh, I hired an assistant last year and she was local and she was like, oh, I can come into the. Into the studio to work. And I was like, oh, that'll be so nice. And this person is lovely and everything. But I just realized it was just. It was a studio thing again. Like, somebody's in my space. I can't get anything done. I spend the whole day before worrying that they're kind of coming. They're going to come in and I go, I'm going to pick my knickers up off the floor or whatever. Not that my knickers are on the floor at the studio, but, you know, you just.

[Helen]

What was going on in your studio? Carry on. Carry on illustrating.

[Katie]

Make sure you don't fart tomorrow. Don't eat Anything garlicky. Very worrying.

[Tanya]

Like just being.

[Katie]

My old studio was very small, so if somebody was in there with me for a whole day, very stressful.

[Helen]

It's just the awareness of other people around you, isn't it? Because I'm thinking of your studio. If I was sitting there in your room with you looming over because it's only about 4 square meters. Wasn't.

[Katie]

Would not loom. It's that tiny. Yeah.

[Helen]

It's just the energy change, isn't it? The notion of needing to feel completely alone and unobserved is the only way you can create.

[Tanya]

It is I just go through reams of paper that gets either scrunched up or just float onto the floor beside me as I go. One drawing, no next drawing, no next drawing. Maybe I'll stick it on the wall. It's all. All those decisions feel really intimate and private and if somebody was watching me. Yeah, I can't make those decisions. I've got to be 100% in my own world. Impossible with somebody else there.

[Helen]

Dance like nobody's watching. That's what it's all about, really, isn't it? Yeah, it's the only way. You can only be unconscious alone. I don't mean unconscious like on the floor, but you know what I mean. Unconsciously creating.

[Tanya]

You've got knickers on the floor, you're unconscious on the floor.

[Helen]

Oh, dear.

[Tanya]

Do you think that answers the question about loneliness?

[Katie]

Definitely not. But we had fun talking about it.

[Helen]

A general ramble about loneliness and the illustrator's plight.

[Katie]

Like, it is lonely, but it's nice lonely. And then you get to meet people in between and it's not lonely.

[Tanya]

Yeah. I don't feel. I don't get lonely. I really love being in my own space. As long as I definitely have chats with other people at some point in the day. Yeah, Yeah.

[Helen]

I think zoom makes it better as well.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Helen]

If all clients began projects with a zoom and you're like, oh, they are a real person, not just a name on an email, that would make projects better. But I think the other illustrator specific condition is, you know, you call it like being on Tinder, just a new person every three weeks. And if you don't actually have a chat with them or feel that they're a real human, then you're just. You're on your own again with someone's email popping through going, make it a bit more bouncy. Or no, I don't like options two and three. Those are quite serious questions, aren't they?

[Tanya]

I find it really hard if you. I didn't know the publisher and I know a lot of people do this. Like a lot of British illustrators will work for publishers in other countries and so they'll just. All of the brief will come by email, all of the changes will come by email. I don't think I could do that. I really like going to see the publisher at the beginning of a project, then having some zoom calls as it's going along, chatting on WhatsApp, sending pictures of the dogs. Like I really. Building a relationship, building a relationship with the publisher. I think I'd find it very difficult working from home if the brief came by email and the changes. And it would be really hard.

[Helen]

Because I think that's the other part of the loneliness is not having a relationship with the art director in Hong Kong. I did because it was a small world. You could pop in and go and see them. They say, come in at lunchtime, we'll go out for lunch and talk about the Ruffs. And that was so civilized and nice.

[Katie]

But.

[Helen]

But when? Usually when you're working long distance, like we all are. Email seemed great because we could work for anyone. But then after a while it's a very dried up relationship and delivering those tricky rejections via email. In fact, I had to reject some work from someone else recently. I was like, oh, this is what it feels like to be an art director. I better phrase this really carefully. I have to write much more than I really want to because I've got to couch it nicely. And we're on the receiving end of that by email. And that is quite an isolating thing. So zoom chats are probably the best way to build a relationship on a job.

[Katie]

And if you're not having a good day, you can read an email or a text message in totally the wrong.

[Tanya]

Tone of voice, can't you?

[Katie]

Yeah, they're just saying like, hi there, these things need change. And you're like, hi there, these things need change because you are a terrible illustrator. And I hate everything you ever draw and like, oh my God, I've put so much effort into it and they hate it. And then you talk on a. You got on a zoom and they're like, oh, yeah, how'd you get on with the changes? You're like, oh, you don't hate me.

[Tanya]

Yeah, that's always. And that's when I think you spend too much time alone, when you start disappearing into your own head and then you read things wrong and. Yeah, yeah, but I think like you.

[Helen]

Always said, Katie and I've taken that to heart. And it really works. Assume positive intent.

[Tanya]

Definitely.

[Helen]

So much better to say that at the beginning of all interactions with any human being.

[Tanya]

Frankly, I think that's really good advice. I remember 30 years ago in therapy once she said to me, would it be easier to believe this scenario or this really horrible hard scenario? Which do you want to believe? I was like, you can do that? I can just choose which way I want to believe.

[Katie]

It's mind blowing.

[Tanya]

It was mind blowing. I couldn't believe she was giving me that permission. Yeah. I remember some.

[Katie]

I think it might have been. I can't remember where I heard it. It was people in the Internet. It's talking about. Basically your whole life is just the stories you tell yourself about what's happening around you. And that blew my mind because, like the facts are always very boring. This happened, that happened. But then the bit you're feeling, you.

[Tanya]

Interpret it is how you see your life.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

Which is. That's what therapy is. Isn't it wild? Brilliant.

[Katie]

There we go. That'll help with loneliness. Facts are you haven't seen anyone all day. That's not a good or a bad thing. Unless you want it to be.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Helen]

Nothing. And the answer to studios is just get one with a door.

[Tanya]

Get some other people around you. I think so.

[Helen]

But if you're younger, you might want a big gang in a room. I'm too old for that now, though.

[Tanya]

I was no good at that. I was no good at that when I was young. Really bad. Couldn't do it.

[Helen]

It's horses for courses, isn't it? Studio wise. Okay. Okay.

[Tanya]

Lovely.

[Katie]

Bye.

[Tanya]

Bye.

[Helen]

Bye.

[Katie]

Sam.