Saying no as an illustrator: dropping projects can boost your career.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Good Ship Illustration – Episode: "Saying No as an Illustrator: Dropping Projects Can Boost Your Career"

Release Date: February 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of The Good Ship Illustration, hosts Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, and Tania Willis delve into the crucial yet often challenging skill of saying no within the illustration industry. Titled "Saying No as an Illustrator: Dropping Projects Can Boost Your Career," the episode explores how selectively declining projects can lead to greater career longevity, enhanced creative satisfaction, and improved financial stability for illustrators.

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1. Dropping Non-Profitable and Exhausting Projects

The conversation kicks off with Tanya prompting a discussion about instances where the hosts have had to drop projects or aspects of their work that were no longer serving them.

Jerry’s Struggle with the Online Shop

Jerry shares his experience with managing an online shop, highlighting the decision to shut it down despite enjoying certain aspects. “[00:36] Jerry: ...this is probably the thing I enjoy least. Or I at least don't enjoy the bit queuing at the post office.”

He emphasizes how the time invested in managing the shop, coupled with the tedious tasks like trips to the post office and parcel wrapping, outweighed the benefits. This realization led him to prioritize projects that were both enjoyable and financially rewarding.

School Visits: A Love-Hate Relationship

Jerry further discusses his passion for school visits, appreciating the direct interaction with children and the joy of sharing stories. However, he points out the significant downsides: lengthy travel, low compensation, and the logistical challenges exacerbated by lockdowns. “[01:18] Jerry: ...I just couldn't do them because they’re exhausting and you don't get paid enough.”

Tanya’s Reflections on School Visit Drawings

Tanya adds a personal touch by mentioning her favorite drawings from school visits, underscoring the emotional and creative fulfillment these interactions provided. “[02:22] Tanya: What am I Whenever you say school visit on your website?...”

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2. Navigating Virtual and In-Person Engagements

Challenges of Virtual School Visits

The transition to virtual school visits during lockdown presented unforeseen challenges. Jerry recounts his attempt to adapt, only to find that bureaucratic constraints prevented effective monetization. “[02:14] Jerry: So in the end I just. And now the school visit is on my website for free because that's much easier and I just don't do them and I do the stuff that's working.”

Daniel’s Experience with In-Person Events Post-Lockdown

Daniel shares his journey of scaling back from in-person events after experiencing high costs and logistical frustrations. “[07:03] Daniel: ...this last year I think I spent like £4,000 on travel. Like, it's insane.”

He highlights the emotional toll of being away from family and the inefficiency of being sidelined by audiovisual teams at events, leading to his decision to cease traveling for work. “[07:51] Daniel: ...if you say yes to in person, I'll get more yeses from clients, which was true. But now I don't care anymore.”

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3. Personal Anecdotes and Creative Brainstorming

Brainstorming a Children’s Question Book

The hosts engage in a delightful brainstorming session about transforming the myriad of questions posed by children during school visits into a potential book. “[05:57] Tanya: So ideas are going to come thick and soft.”

They explore the concept of capturing the whimsical and often profound inquiries of children, envisioning a book that encapsulates these unique perspectives. “ [06:09] Tanya: So you binned the school visits?” followed by excitement over the creative potential of such a project.

Daniel’s Humorous Anecdote on Overcommitting

Daniel recounts a humorous yet telling story about overcommitting to a wedding illustration project, leading to a cascade of unexpected challenges. “[12:00] Tanya: All that time to think of a new thing...”

This anecdote serves as a cautionary tale about the pitfalls of saying yes to every opportunity, reinforcing the episode’s central theme.

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4. The Benefits of Saying No and Focusing on Strengths

Tanya’s Near-Miss with the Wine Label Project

Tanya shares her consideration and eventual decision to decline designing a wine label for a friend’s vineyard. “[09:38] Jerry: But can I ask you a really dumb question?...”

She reflects on the complexities of branding projects and her realization that her strengths lie in illustration rather than comprehensive brand design. “[10:43] Tanya: It's really branding for the vineyard... I keep thinking this year, just focus, don't be doing everything.”

Embracing Specialization for Enhanced Efficiency

The hosts collectively advocate for focusing on core strengths to maintain quality and reduce stress. Tanya emphasizes the importance of specializing to handle projects more efficiently and enjoyably. “[12:57] Tanya: ... you need to have a process, a very clear process of like, are you traditional, are you modern?...”

Jerry’s Insight on Starting Broad and Narrowing Focus

Jerry discusses the initial phase of trying various projects to discover what truly resonates, ultimately narrowing down to key areas of expertise. “[13:32] Jerry: ...doing a bit of everything that seems like you might enjoy it. And then you quickly realize which bits you are and which bits you're not and drop those bits.”

Daniel’s Affirmation of Saying No

Daniel echoes the sentiment, sharing that while saying no can initially feel worrisome, it ultimately paves the way for more meaningful and suitable opportunities. “[11:13] Daniel: Don't you feel like as well when you say no to something like that, something magical happens and then the space where you said no, something else good fills it.”

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5. Practical Strategies for Illustrators

Streamlining Operations for Efficiency

The hosts discuss practical steps to manage workloads effectively by focusing on profitable and enjoyable tasks. Tanya mentions transitioning to bulk card sales to reduce the burden of individually sending items to multiple clients. “[13:44] Tanya: I still do the card sales. I'd rather sell in bulk cards and paper gifts to one supplier than to send to lots of people.”

Reducing Stress by Eliminating Low-Value Tasks

They emphasize the importance of trimming down activities that are exhausting and undercompensated. “[14:19] Tanya: ...doing something that's exhausting and not working for you and you keep thinking, this is. I'm getting six pounds an hour for this...”

Fostering a Supportive Community

The episode concludes with a reminder of the supportive online community at The Good Ship Illustration, encouraging illustrators to share experiences and strategies for saying no and focusing on their strengths.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Good Ship Illustration powerfully illustrates that saying no is not a sign of weakness but a strategic move to enhance one’s creative career. By selectively declining projects that drain time, energy, and resources, illustrators can focus on what truly matters—delivering quality work, maintaining personal well-being, and fostering sustainable career growth. Through personal anecdotes, thoughtful discussions, and practical advice, Helen, Katie, and Tania inspire listeners to navigate their creative journeys with intention and confidence.

Notable Quotes:

• “[00:38] Jerry: ...this is probably the thing I enjoy least. Or I at least don't enjoy the bit queuing at the post office.”
• “[04:00] Jerry: But mostly it's statements like, hand goes up. You say, has anybody got any questions about…”
• “[07:42] Tanya: ...so you know I like this idea that we've all brainstormed just now, the question book.”
• “[11:13] Daniel: ...something magical happens and then the space where you said no, something else good fills it.”
• “[14:19] Tanya: ...maybe shave off the bits that aren't good for you. Stay with the things that are making you money and making you happy.”

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, providing actionable insights and relatable experiences for illustrators seeking to optimize their careers by mastering the art of saying no.

Transcript

[Tanya]

Have you two ever dropped something that wasn't like just got rid of something that wasn't.

[Jerry]

What's something that we tried.

[Tanya]

You've been a bit of your career.

[Jerry]

Yeah, yeah, I have.

[Daniel]

So much.

[Jerry]

Yeah. Maybe not forever, I don't know. But when we started good shape and I was still making picture books at the same rate as I did before. And then I started writing on shop stack and like my life got busier and busier and busier. Jerry and I had an online shop so we decided to shut that because that was the one job. Even though we liked running the shop, it did involve lots of trips around to the post office and wrapping the parcels. And I thought of all the things I invest my time in, this is probably the thing I enjoy least. Or I at least don't enjoy the bit queuing at the post office.

[Tanya]

Oh God.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So we dropped that and I used to do loads of school visits and lockdown stopped that. So then I thought, well, because I do actually really love the school visits, but it's the journeys to them, it takes so long to get there. I love the interaction with the children and there's nothing to be reading a story with them and seeing what works and doesn't work. It's brilliant. But there's a hell of a lot of traveling. Schools have hardly any budget, so they barely pay you. So when lockdown stopped that, I then tried to make a school a virtual school visit and immediately realized it was a bad idea because schools had no budget and will only pay you with. Do you remember old fashioned checks on paper? They'll only pay you like that.

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

So you couldn't even have a checkout on your website. I tried that. Nobody would go through checkout because they wanted me to invoice the council who would send me a check.

[Tanya]

So they refused to play game on any automated purposes because bureaucracy doesn't allow.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So in the end I just. And now the school visit is on my website for free because that's much easier and I just don't do them and I do the stuff that's working.

[Tanya]

What am I Whenever you say school visit on your website? My favorite drawing of yours. One of my favorite drawings are the ones of the little kids jumping around. I mean, if anything. And you had to give it away for free. Those drawings that came out, the little.

[Jerry]

Drawings I did for like the.

[Tanya]

For the school.

[Jerry]

The films and the school visit. Oh yeah, I love doing that. That's when I first started drawing on Procreate. Those drawings.

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

Nice times.

[Tanya]

Billy.

[Daniel]

Peggy book basically came from school visits.

[Jerry]

School visits have been so amazing. That's why I'm not saying that I just dropped them and I'll never go back. Because if I get asked to a special school or somewhere that's easy to get to or I know something about this is going to be great, I still do them like I do the children's book show because they invite hundreds or even maybe thousands of children to one big theater. So you see them all in one go, and then you meet every single child on the way out because you give a book to each child and those conversations are us. They're so gorgeous. So it's not that I don't do them at all, but I just had to drop it because it's exhausting. You don't get paid enough.

[Tanya]

Do you just have to ask Helen to go to one of your schools? If you. If you've got a child who's going to ask her a really bonkers question, she'd do anything for a bonkers.

[Jerry]

I love the bonkers kids in the class. I just. Oh, I just love conversations with little kids. Oh, I don't know, all sorts of things. Once somebody asked me if I was alive because I said I was an author. Somebody asked me if I had any debt. A child asking, what's going on in their house. Yeah. Put his question up and said, do you have any credit cards? Do you have any debts?

[Daniel]

Consolidate that into one monthly payment.

[Jerry]

But mostly it's statements like, hand goes up. You say, has anybody got any questions about. For an author? And hand goes up. I've got a bunk bed. I like ham sandwiches. Do you know what I'm allergic to?

[Tanya]

No.

[Jerry]

Godsits and walnuts. Couldn't that be your next book?

[Tanya]

Oh, my goodness. I'd be so on children's the best questions kids have ever asked Tanya.

[Jerry]

I love that idea.

[Tanya]

It would be really funny.

[Jerry]

I. I would really like to do that because kids ask you the craziest questions.

[Daniel]

It could be college. If you've got any questions, the first one's like, you know what I'm allergic to?

[Jerry]

So good. So good. I remember being on one where it was a book festival. I still do book festivals sometimes, although it's a similar thing. They don't pay anything. It takes a long time to get there. You get there, they've missed you off the schedule, all that malarkey. But the actual meeting with the children is so gorgeous. And I remember once sitting, this little girl started talking to me. So I got down to her level, sat beside this chair and I put my arm like rested over the side of the chair and while she was talking to me about what she was going to have for a tea when she got home and she just got her fingers and started tapping the end of my fingers. It's just like oh my God, you're so gorgeous. You're so gorgeous.

[Tanya]

You've got a tame one. Katie's little girl can be your advisor.

[Jerry]

And she threw me out of the house though. She did?

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

She decided it was time for me to leave, said bye, bye bye, pulled me out the door, shut the door on me. So yeah.

[Daniel]

Peeking around the door to check you've gone. She does ask to look at photos of you quite often.

[Jerry]

Okay.

[Tanya]

She just doesn't like the real you. She likes the photos.

[Daniel]

I, I wish I was that honest. She'll just be like come go home now. Is it time to go home now? But we'll go to grandparents house and she'll be like put the kettle on.

[Jerry]

Did you say that?

[Daniel]

I love it. She's had a cake. She's like okay, can we go home now?

[Jerry]

Oh those.

[Tanya]

So ideas are going to come thick and soft.

[Jerry]

So you know I like this idea that we've all brainstormed just now, the question book. We've got to make that happen and.

[Tanya]

Use those pictures of the kids from the school visit part of your website.

[Jerry]

They're so beautiful.

[Tanya]

So you binned the school visits?

[Jerry]

Yeah, they're not entirely binned because I just love the actual event but in terms of it being part of my business and part of my income. No I can't whole day off. You can't make it work like that.

[Tanya]

And they can't pay for a day's travel to go all the way to a school.

[Jerry]

Sometimes they will. I mean it's good if you get a. I never know whether to say private or public school. A fee paying school, they'll pay you more and they'll pay for your travel. And sometimes I've said you need to pay me for two days if I'm going to visit for one because it's a lot of work and they will. And some people ask that school to invite a local non fee and pay school in as well so that it's more fair for all. Everybody gets that experience. So yeah there are situations where I do say yes but has it been part of the business how I earn my living then? No. And yeah, the shop, we closed that temporarily.

[Tanya]

What have you been?

[Daniel]

Well last year I've just freshly been in person events so in lockdown and everything, it was all online and I loved it. And then after lockdown, people were really like, please be in person. And I was still like, no, no, it's still virtual. But eventually I got to the point where I was like, fine, fine, I'll do it in person. So this last year I think I spent like £4,000 on travel. Like, it's insane. And then the amount of delays, the amount of times I got stuck in London. Yeah, it was, I was just like, it's not worth it. And then I get to the event and they'll put me in the audio visual, like with the AV guys, the lads, so no one sees you, so they can't even see that I'm there.

[Tanya]

I was about to ask, why do they want you to be there in person?

[Daniel]

I think it's just like old fashioned mindset. And also they want the reassurance of seeing my human body in the room.

[Tanya]

And you're not sending them some AI.

[Daniel]

Generated, whereas I'm like, we can have a WhatsApp chat and they'll just be like, I'm here, I'm just waiting in the waiting room. I'm letting. This is all good. And then like, yeah, so if. As long as there's good Internet, it's fine. But I think, yeah, this year I've just been really strict. I'm not doing travel to events, I'm doing travel for fun travel that I want to do, if any. And it feels really good so far. But yeah, I was looking at cost and also energy levels because traveling's really tiring. And then the next day you're tired. It takes about a week to recover.

[Tanya]

All that as a mother as well, it's really difficult. You just feel so ill at ease.

[Daniel]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tanya]

And they're that little and you're not there for a couple of nights and she's fine.

[Daniel]

But then you feel bad. Like that time I got stuck in London, that was one of. That was a phrase for like the week. Mummy stuck in London. Train not going, Mummy stuck in London. Oh no, I've damaged her emotionally, like, so that's really good to be strict about that. And part of me did in person events because I wanted to do as many as possible because I was trying to scale and everything. And so I felt like if I say yes to in person, I'll get more yeses from clients, which was true. But now I don't care anymore. I'm just like, I'm back to being fussy and doing less.

[Tanya]

Yes.

[Daniel]

Quality life's too short.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Daniel]

What about you, Daniel? What have you been?

[Tanya]

Well, my memory is not very good, so I might have been a lot of things that I just can't remember. But a recent one was someone asked me if I would design a wine label for them. And it's a good friend as well. And she'd asked me 10 years ago to do this. I was like, oh, brilliant. So we are going to do it, we're going to do your dad's vineyard and I would love to do a wine label. And I was. But then after about a day's thinking, I was like, oh, I remember branding, back and forth, back and forth. And I'm not a professional brand designer, but I love making the imagery and working. I'd love to work with a designer who would manage all the other aspects and I would just deal with the imagery.

[Jerry]

But can I ask you a really dumb question?

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

What would be the difference between designing a map for someone and then branding? Is that because you've got to match branding, they've already got what makes a branding project different.

[Tanya]

You're designing the logo, basically and the identity for them from scratch. And it's like trying to dress someone up in clothes. It's so fraught with. It's really subjective and I think you need to learn to not control the client, but you need to have a process, a very clear process of like, are you traditional, are you modern? You know, take them through all those sort of doorways so you get a feel for this intangible idea that's in their head. So effectively doing a. A wine label is really branding for the vineyard, unless they've already got a pre existing main brand and they're in Portugal. So I just thought this is going to be really difficult because you. The only way it works is to sit with people and lots of images and talk and get a feel for them, because it is really like dressing them up. And I thought, you can't do this, you don't need to do everything. I've always said yes to everything. I'd be like, yeah, I can be a bit of a designer, I can be an illustrator, I can be all sorts of. What do you want me to design? A rug? Anything. Yeah. Now it's like, no, no, no, don't do all those things, they are fun to do, but you'll do them at twice the pace of anyone else because you're exploring it and enjoying the difference, but you're not a specialist. And I keep thinking this year, just focus, don't be Doing everything. Do the things you're good at. And then that saves time to do personal projects instead of trying to do everything. So it was like, oh, goodbye, wine label. I would love to do it, but, yeah, it would take too long.

[Daniel]

Don't you feel like as well when you say no to something like that, something magical happens and then the space where you said no, something else good fills it. Because the f. You're never not doing anything.

[Jerry]

Yeah. You can be left with that worry of, well, what will I. What will happen when I drop this thing? But there's always something else comes along.

[Daniel]

Well, like when I was. When I was lecturing at uni, realized I wasn't really that into it, but the live illustration was getting busier and busier. So I quit my lecturer job. But then lockdown happened and all my jobs of the live illustration were canceled.

[Jerry]

And I was like, oh, no.

[Daniel]

But then we started Good Ship at the same sort of time, so it.

[Tanya]

Filled that gap because I was like.

[Daniel]

Oh, I've just quit a really good job. What an idiot. I really shouldn't have done that. But it turned out to actually be brilliant because it meant that we had.

[Tanya]

All that time to think of a new thing. You just kind of need nerves of steel to believe that it will be okay. Something will come along that's better to do instead of just saying yes to everything. Remember that time you gave me the lift back from Edinburgh and I said, what have you been doing? He said, I've been painting a moon.

[Daniel]

Oh.

[Tanya]

Oh, no, I did do that.

[Daniel]

Yeah. Somebody wanted to buy this moon cut on. It was on Pinterest, but it was going to be $4,000. So instead of that, they hired a joiner to make it. And then it was somebody I'd been to uni with, friend who was doing it, like their boss or something, this rich man. But what? Not rich enough to buy a $4,000 moon.

[Jerry]

So then.

[Daniel]

So he got the drone. I had to build it, and then I had to drive it back from Edinburgh and paint it yellow and draw a moon face on it. But then realized I'm actually terrible at painting, like, practical painting. So there was drips down it, and Cameron had to, like, sand it down and repeat. Oh, it was an absolute nightmare. But, yeah, I would just say yes or anything. I did. I've done everything and anything.

[Tanya]

And then you didn't. Which is like the same thing as binning that approach to I'll say yes to anything, which I did as well. Just trying to keep time for things that you know you're good at and you can calculate how long it will take you. Things won't go wrong because this is your specialism. Whereas taking all comers on thinking, well, that'd be fun. I'd like to try a bit of that. And then crying through most of the project because you really didn't know what it entailed. And those general levels of stress, like, oh, God, what have I done?

[Daniel]

It's annoying because you kind of have to. Maybe you don't have to do everything, but I feel like everybody has a time where they do too much and they learn from it, hopefully.

[Jerry]

Yeah. I feel like it's the only way to get started, really. Just doing a bit of everything that seems like you might enjoy it. And then you quickly realize which bits you are and which bits you're not and drop those bits.

[Tanya]

Start shaving it off till you've got two or three things. I think illustrators and creatives need at least two or three different prongs to keep them all the plates going. I'll do. I still do the card sales. I'd rather sell in bulk cards and paper gifts to one supplier than to send to lots of people. Because that mail room thing is just. That's impossible, isn't it? And go to the post office as well.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Daniel]

Post office trips are not the one.

[Jerry]

I love the ladies. Our post office, though. It's almost worth it just for a chat with them.

[Tanya]

Yes. If you're doing something that's exhausting and not working for you and you keep thinking, this is. I'm getting six pounds an hour for this. When I look at the. The timesheet.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

Maybe shave off the bits that aren't good for you. Stay with the things that are making you money and making you happy. Yeah, that's us. Okay.

[Jerry]

Okay, bye.

[Daniel]

Hey, double clap.