Your website might be missing this one thing – and nooo, it’s not more portfolio pieces

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Good Ship Illustration Episode: Your Website Might Be Missing This One Thing – And Nooo, It’s Not More Portfolio Pieces
Release Date: March 14, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of The Good Ship Illustration, hosts Helen Stephens, Katie Chappell, and Tania Willis dive deep into the critical yet often overlooked elements that can elevate an illustrator’s website beyond a mere showcase of portfolio pieces. Titled “Your Website Might Be Missing This One Thing – And Nooo, It’s Not More Portfolio Pieces,” the discussion centers around the significance of incorporating personal photos and crafting authentic bios to create meaningful connections with clients and audience alike.

The Importance of Photos on Your Website

The conversation kicks off with a candid discussion about the role of personal photographs on an illustrator’s website. Tanya shares her initial apprehensions but acknowledges the transformative effect professional photos had on her site.

Tanya [00:24]: “I just felt so professional when they were done.”

Katie echoes this sentiment, highlighting how photos can humanize an illustrator’s online presence, making it easier for clients to connect on a personal level.

Katie [07:11]: “It reminds me of when we went to Iceland on holiday... Maybe pictures are the same.”

Overcoming Anxiety About Being Photographed

Both Tanya and Katie openly discuss their anxieties surrounding professional photoshoots. Tanya recounts her past discomfort with photographs, even resorting to destroying pictures taken by others.

Tanya [01:41]: “People have shown me pictures... I've ripped the photograph up that belonged to them.”

Katie shares a similar experience, mentioning her initial negative reaction to feedback about her first professional photo.

Katie [01:09]: “It looks just like you... Was I supposed to shoulder pack me? What was I supposed to do?”

Their stories resonate with many creatives who may share similar fears about exposing their true selves online.

Tips for Getting Great Website Photos

The hosts provide practical advice for illustrators looking to enhance their websites with professional photos:

1. Hire a Professional Photographer: Tanya highly recommends finding a specialist in business headshots to ensure quality and professionalism.

   Tanya [02:44]: “If you were looking for someone like that, you'd look for someone in your area who specializes in headshots.”

2. Create a Comfortable Environment: Katie emphasizes the importance of feeling relaxed during the shoot, which can be achieved by choosing a photographer who chats naturally and makes the subject forget they’re being photographed.

   Katie [02:32]: “Your sister's really good as well because she just chats while she's doing it.”

3. Use Props to Ease Tension: Incorporating elements like a dog or sketchbook can help illustrators feel more at ease and result in more natural, engaging photos.

   Katie [05:42]: “I often find it much easier if I've got Peggy the dog in the room as well.”

4. Invest in Quality: While the cost can vary, investing in professional photos is deemed worthwhile for the long-term benefits they bring to the website's appeal.

   Tanya [03:18]: “I spent about £400 on it... I just felt so professional when they were done.”

Crafting an Authentic Bio

Moving beyond visuals, the hosts delve into the art of writing an authentic and effective bio for a website. Katie shares her approach of speaking naturally into her phone to capture her true voice, later refining it to maintain her colloquial Northern charm.

Katie [09:08]: “...I had Sarah Archer help me do it. I decided to get somebody to help me do it... I just rambling away into the phone and converting it into text.”

Tanya contrasts this with her initial more formal approach aimed at SEO optimization, which eventually led her to adopt a more genuine tone after realizing the disconnect it created with her authentic self.

Tanya [10:04]: “I just got really into the whole kind of who is my client? What am I doing this for... I've got a really uptight corporate bio now.”

The discussion underscores the importance of balancing professionalism with personal authenticity to resonate with the intended audience.

Managing Client Relationships and Bookings

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to effective client management, particularly for illustrators dealing with long-term projects like maps or corporate visualizations. Tanya and Katie discuss the necessity of treating project bookings with the same seriousness as other professions, such as plumbers, to ensure clarity and prevent overcommitment.

Katie [12:15]: “If you want me to do your map, you'll have to get in touch. Six months minimum.”

Tanya builds on this by highlighting the shift towards more structured booking practices among illustrators.

Tanya [12:45]: “...taking bookings for what, three months ahead. And I think illustrators never think like that. That's corporate stuff.”

Jerry adds that illustrators can learn from graphic designers by implementing strategies like upfront deposits and clear project milestones.

Jerry [12:56]: “You've got to have the deliverables that they need, like the brief stuff.”

Tailoring Your Website to Your Audience

The hosts emphasize tailoring website content to the specific audience or type of clients an illustrator aims to attract. For instance, Katie, who works in the picture book sector, focuses on showcasing her life and personal interests to align with her creative projects.

Katie [15:09]: “I think for a picture bookmaker, it is important to show your life and who you are because also you write the material so it makes sense.”

Conversely, those working with corporate clients might adopt a more formal and professional tone to meet business expectations.

Jerry [16:07]: “...on my about page I try and say like, I know what you're about. I'm gonna bring this for you. And I'm a bit weird.”

Final Advice and Encouragement

As the episode wraps up, the hosts offer encouraging words to illustrators hesitant about enhancing their websites with photos and personal bios. They advocate for starting simple—using a favorite photo and a draft bio—and iterating over time to improve.

Katie [18:01]: “...just talk into your phone for your bio, stick it on there for now and leave it a month or something and then come back with fresh eyes and edit it because it's better than nothing.”

Tanya reinforces the idea that an incomplete personal touch is better than none, helping to avoid the impersonal “robot” perception.

Tanya [18:21]: “Just don't have nothing on there. Yeah, because then everyone thinks you're a robot in this day and age.”

Conclusion

This episode of The Good Ship Illustration serves as a comprehensive guide for illustrators looking to enhance their online presence beyond portfolio showcases. By integrating professional photos and authentic bios, creatives can foster deeper connections with their audience and streamline client interactions. The hosts’ blend of personal anecdotes, practical tips, and professional insights provides valuable takeaways for any illustrator navigating the complexities of building a successful online career.

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Notable Quotes from the Episode:

• Tanya [00:24]: “I just felt so professional when they were done.”
• Katie [07:11]: “It reminds me of when we went to Iceland on holiday... Maybe pictures are the same.”
• Katie [09:08]: “I had Sarah Archer help me do it... rambling away into the phone and converting it into text.”
• Tanya [10:04]: “I've got a really uptight corporate bio now.”
• Katie [12:15]: “If you want me to do your map, you'll have to get in touch. Six months minimum.”
• Jerry [16:07]: “I'm gonna bring this for you. And I'm a bit weird.”
• Katie [18:01]: “Just talk into your phone for your bio... it's better than nothing.”
• Tanya [18:21]: “Just don't have nothing on there. Yeah, because then everyone thinks you're a robot in this day and age.”

This episode is a must-listen for illustrators seeking to refine their websites and build lasting professional relationships through thoughtful design and authentic self-presentation.

Transcript

[Tanya]

Hello. It's the seasons of cough Sunday and colds and someone's going to sneeze in this podcast at some point.

[Katie]

I feel like just because we press record, I've got that itchy feeling. Okay, so we're going to talk about getting your website together and how to write your bio and how to take the photograph for your website, all of that stuff.

[Tanya]

I'm fresh out of being photographed, so I'm all enthusiastic because it took about two years to get the courage to go and do the photo shoot. But Katie, luckily her sister is a photographer and she took all our good shit pictures. So you feel all relaxed with us. So maybe I'd got a bit of a head start knowing the photographer was going to make us look okay.

[Jerry]

Yeah, I thought it was a gorgeous as well. And they look like you. We were just talking about that, weren't they like.

[Katie]

Yeah, one time, years and years and years ago when I had my first book done, a magazine asked for a photo. So I got Jerry to take a picture of me drawing at my desk and somebody I knew at the time said, it looks just like you. And the way she said it seemed like an insult. And I got myself in a right twist about it, like, well, what else could I have done? Was I supposed to shoulder pack me? What was I supposed to do?

[Jerry]

You didn't get a perm.

[Katie]

Things like that can cause quite should have got a perm. They can cause like spiral of anxiety, can't they? Having a photo done for the first time is quite a big deal.

[Jerry]

And just the thought of showing up with your face, totally.

[Tanya]

I get so anxious about having my photo done. People have shown me pictures they'd taken of me. This was years ago when they passed your photograph and I've ripped the photograph up that belonged to them, you know, just because I feel so discombobulated about seeing a picture. But then you had some pictures done for your website. Katie had pictures done. I was like, these are just brilliant. And I can so see how a client can connect to you much more clearly when they can see your face and they can kind of get some idea of what they think you're like. You're probably completely different. But that humanity thing is so important, isn't it?

[Jerry]

Yeah. I think of all the things you can invest in when you're doing your website and updating your bio and stuff. Getting proper photos from somebody with a good camera is just one of the best things you can do.

[Katie]

Your sister's really good as well because she just chats while she's doing it and you forget you're having your photo taken.

[Jerry]

Yeah. You just think, oh, yeah, there's a nice photo and you're not like going cheese or anything, I think.

[Tanya]

And if you were looking for someone like that, you'd look for someone in your area who specialises in headshots. Isn't that what Sarah says?

[Jerry]

Business headshots, branding, photo shoots, stuff like that.

[Tanya]

And that's great because then they come around to your studio and they know how to take the kind of photos that don't put you like a rabbit in the headlights, but kind of snap away at you, casually get you to do some work, get some handshots, some sketchbooks out, all that kind of thing. And that creates a kind of library of fluff, doesn't it? Some of those kind of computery drawing pictures. It was very dark when Sarah came around on a winter's afternoon, so it's kind of even better. I thought, there's lots of shadow. I don't feel like there's a glare on me.

[Jerry]

Makes it cosy.

[Tanya]

Yeah. And then she just took these amazing pictures, which, when I got them, I couldn't believe it. I was like, I cannot wait to share these. I've never felt like that about any pictures of me. And I think I just feel like it's really completed the website by having photos. I knew that that's where the gaping hole in the website was and I didn't really want to address it. It's a bit of an investment, maybe about £400, I think I spent on it. People vary in different prices.

[Katie]

It's worth it, though, isn't it? Because they'll be there. You've got a whole pool to choose from. You'll have them a long time.

[Tanya]

And that's because I bought all of them because I couldn't choose. But I think that Sarah Steele is something like 200, 250 for five headshots. You. You choose them from about 20 or 30 of them. And I think she follows a similar offering to most people who do business headshots. So those figures are a bit rough, but I guess you'd find someone in your area who would charge about that price and just make sure you like their work and maybe meet up with them first. But I just felt so professional when they were done.

[Katie]

This makes me think of when we started doing art club and I'm so glad we just on the spur of the moment said, should we go live on Instagram tonight or tomorrow night, whatever it was? And it was locked down as well. So we had no time to go and get a haircut or anything like that.

[Jerry]

Rodeo had really long. Oh, it was early, but it was.

[Katie]

A long hair lockdown, wasn't it? And we just on the spur of the moment, decided to do it. And that meant we were just ourselves. And I'm so glad we did it like that.

[Jerry]

Almost in pajamas.

[Katie]

Yeah. I mean, literally in pajamas a lot of the time.

[Jerry]

Let's draw pictures.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Tanya]

Just thinking about Yaz Song the Only Way is Up. Start in your pajamas, stay there for a long while with no makeup on. Then everyone's going to say, wow. The moment you put clothes on, a bit of mascara.

[Jerry]

I suppose that's like what we talk about. About having something to improve on as well. Not that we've improved. Art club. Like, for photos, like, I suppose you might feel daunted by hiring a professional photographer, but maybe the first step is having a picture of you on the website. Because I know as illustrators, it's tempting to draw a smiley face and be like, that's me. You don't need a photo. But even if you've got a photo from your phone, I've got Jerry to.

[Katie]

Take photos of me before because he's quite good at taking pictures. He's not a professional photo, but he's quite good at it. And because I feel relaxed around him, he sometimes takes some of the funniest shots. Because we were doing some photos one day and I was starving and I went and got some crackers and cheese from the kitchen and he just carried on taking pictures. And it's actually on my website because that is mostly my studio snack while I'm at work. So it was perfect. Yeah. I often find it much easier if I've got Peggy the dog in the room as well.

[Tanya]

Props. Yeah, props help.

[Katie]

Like a dog. Just makes you feel a lot calmer.

[Jerry]

Something to do with your hands as well.

[Katie]

Like stroke the dog or the sketchbook. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. A picture with nothing in my. I don't know where you put your hands. They hang by your side. You fold them around your face.

[Jerry]

Vogue.

[Tanya]

It's impossible having someone. Yeah. In your house who can take reasonable pictures. Well, Jerry's good at it. That's probably the best way because you can also get them to take loads without them saying, I've been here four hours now. So this is the bill. You know, you can keep having shots done until you find something you like, but, you know, just overcome that fear of putting a face out there, because I think it just has such A powerful effect on allowing people to connect with you. You can write all the about stuff in the world, but without an image. It's a bit weird because it always used to be people only put their portfolios on their websites or a series of images. But if you go on a website now and only see someone's illustration and there's no pictures of them, it looks really weird. Times have changed, things have folded over and it's like you have to kind of put yourself there.

[Jerry]

I really struggle with that On Instagram, if somebody's never posted their face and if their profile picture isn't their face and they come over and they're like, hello, I'm so and so. I don't know who you are because I've never seen you. But then if they show you their work, you can sort of be like, oh, it's you. But I find it really hard to be someone's friend online.

[Katie]

Me too. Especially if you don't even use their name as their Instagram name.

[Jerry]

There's no photo.

[Katie]

I find that really difficult to.

[Tanya]

Maybe it's like being vulnerable. Being vulnerable enough to put a picture of yourself and use your real name makes you approachable because we're all agreeing to do it together. And if someone's hiding a little bit behind.

[Katie]

It reminds me of when we went to Iceland on holiday and we went to all the kind of local pools and, you know, people do a lot of cold water bathing and stuff in Iceland. And it's impolite to go in in your swimming costume.

[Tanya]

Is it?

[Katie]

Yeah, because apparently traditionally everybody wanted to see that you were definitely clean and so it was polite to be naked. And so I felt really self conscious. And then when I learned that it's impolite and that actually you would be judged because maybe you're not clean enough if you've got a costume on. I thought, oh, well, I have to go along with the majority. And then it felt fine. Maybe pictures are the same.

[Tanya]

Wow. Yeah. That's such a good metaphor for it, isn't it? Oh, let's all hold hands and be vulnerable. It's a picture of me.

[Jerry]

Oh, God. It's a bit like, you know, when you're at a meeting online and everybody's got the camera on except one person. A small meeting. I don't mean like, so a Q and A calls. We don't care if you've got your camera on or not. But like a little meeting, if one person's not got the camera on. I'm always a bit like, why Not. Or like. Or if you're on a call with one person online and they've got the camera off and yours is on, you're like, oh, I need to turn mine off now. Like, yeah, I don't want you to see me and I can't see you. So maybe it's something human psychology there, isn't that?

[Katie]

Definitely, yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[Tanya]

And on the really practical level, I just remember Sarah giving weekly advice before. Well, daily advice the week before she took the photo. She says she.

[Jerry]

She's really automated her email.

[Tanya]

She sends these emails out, which is like, do not go and get her haircut four days before the photo shoot. Here's a practical list that you can write down if you'd like to get your nails done. I will be taking photos of your hands drawing, which was a really good tip. So I got my nails done and she said, put some hand cream on. Because when you photograph hands drawing, if they're a little bit old like mine are, they can look. Somehow the application of hand cream just makes your hands not look like old crone's hands on camera. So those are the top tips.

[Katie]

What about writing bio?

[Tanya]

Oh, that's another. What do you think? Have you got any regular?

[Katie]

Well, when I was doing my website, maybe it's maybe two years ago, even though it feels like yesterday when I was doing my website. I don't know, I think it is. I had Sarah Archer help me do my website. I decided to get somebody to help me do it. I've always done it myself, but I was tired and I thought it'd be really nice to have a designer to really help me with it. And she was brilliant. And we were talking about my tone of voice for the website and I didn't want my tone of voice to be too smartened up. I didn't want it to sound formal when I'm not a very formal person and my work's not very formal. And she helped me, she gave me the advice for writing my bio to just speak it into my phone.

[Tanya]

That's what I did. I was going for walks with Billy and like rambling away into the phone and converting it into text.

[Katie]

Yeah, that's what I did. And then just tidied it up here and there where the grammar was a bit rubbish, but not completely edit my colloquial northern voice out of it either.

[Jerry]

It's your personality, isn't it, how you talk?

[Tanya]

Yes. Well, especially because you're a writer. So your personality is really kind of bound up with what you do and what you make. So I started, I did that same method and then looked at it and thought, no one wants to hear all that nonsense. And then wrote it really formally because I don't know, I was seoing my site at the time and I just got really into the whole kind of who is my client? What am I doing this for? So I've got. It might not be there when you hear this, but I've got a really uptight corporate bio now, which is the exact opposite of what I thought I would do. But I'm just going to try it for a bit and leave it for a year and see if that makes more sense to the people who are reading my site. Because I was used to write as though I was writing to other art directors or illustrators and being personable, but now I'm like, look, this is what a map's going to do for you. Okay. It's written in the tone. Yeah.

[Katie]

It depends who your client, like, who is your website for? That was one of the great things Sarah Archer asked me, said, what is the point of your website? Who is it for?

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Katie]

And when she said that, I knew it's not to get more clients because I have, you know, if you're a picture bookmaker, you've probably got one or two publishers you work with for a very long time. I thought maybe it's other illustrators, really. It's all the purpose of it is to look nice. That's it. And so when we had that as the goal, then it was easy. And like you said, if you're looking for a particular type of client and they want to hear about your bio.

[Tanya]

In that way, then yeah, I'd just done that creative mentoring with, oh gosh.

[Jerry]

I can see a website in my mind. I can't remember her name, but she.

[Tanya]

Had talked a lot about like, what kind of projects do you want to do and how much time have you got to do them? And maps take a long while, so you can't sort of say, I'll just take whatever comes because they're long winded projects and you can get tied up on someone's project for six months and then think, God, I wish I'd never taken this on.

[Katie]

I like how on your website it's very clear saying I can because of the length of time it takes me to do a map I can do. I don't know what you say, three or four projects a year.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Katie]

So if you want me to do your map, you'll have to get in touch. Six months minimum. I Don't know what your timeframe is actually, I can't remember. But you're very clear about what you can fit in a year, how many projects you can do, how far in advance they need to contact you.

[Tanya]

That's what I think. That's. Katie triggered that in me when it's like now taking bookings for what, three months ahead. And I think illustrators never think like that. That's corporate stuff. But actually it's really true. Clients do need to know that because they're always saying, how soon can you do this? Could you start next week? Or could, could you be free for a certain time? And illustrators do need to book time out. If you've got a lot of people queuing up, you've got to treat it like a plumber. That's what the plumber said to me the other day. As soon as you agree the quote, I'm not available for six weeks after that I thought, well, they can do that. Why can't illustrators?

[Jerry]

We've got a lot to learn from our graphic designer friends. Because they're good at that. They get you booked in, get 50% deposit, the time's blocked out for that project. You've got to have the deliverables that they need, like the brief stuff.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

And then. Yeah. Mail stones and all that.

[Tanya]

Yeah. Write the schedule, tell them how quickly you need revisions and turn around for you to meet their deadline and. But for so long you just think, you don't involve yourself with any of that stuff. You think other people's worlds, it's so.

[Katie]

Different in the world of picture books. There's no way I could do that. In the world of picture books we just mosey along at our own pace until there's an emergency deadline.

[Jerry]

It's a book fair quick.

[Katie]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Tanya]

It's a gentle woman's world, isn't it, where there's kind of verbal agreements and that's why your website is great for its personality and profile, isn't it? Yeah, it's here's your writer illustrator and meet them and find out what makes them tick. And that's really nice and much more casual and relaxed, but I just thought, no, it wouldn't work.

[Katie]

What's that thing we keep talking about how Kirti's sleeping around? You've got.

[Tanya]

I'm just have a lot of series.

[Katie]

Of long term serial relationships and I'm married. Because you need so many clients, your website has got to bring them in. Bring them in, bring them in. You have to get in four or Five. I don't know how many.

[Tanya]

I line them up a year but.

[Katie]

You line them up and say, sit.

[Tanya]

In the waiting room then.

[Katie]

Whereas I'm just like married to one publisher forever. So I don't need to be tempting in new publishers. Yeah, but it's that purpose.

[Tanya]

What are you writing you're about for? And I did feel a bit embarrassed when I'd written. It's like, God, who do you think you are? It all sounds so corporate.

[Katie]

But then I thought it was brilliant.

[Tanya]

I've remembered the creative mentor, Kerry Hands. Kerry with a C. Kerry was like, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I'd just like to do a really massive, great map in a new museum that stays on the wall forever, you know, place making, all that kind of. And the more I got into that nerdy stuff, Katie. Oh, wow. You remember saying, well, you thought you loved seoing so much and you got deep into that world. I thought, well, I'd better talk to the person who commissions those great big maps in museums or, I don't know, place making projects and urban redevelopment. I've got to walk the talk. So that's why my bout was different.

[Jerry]

Well, they'll be into that, won't they? Be like, oh, yeah, she really knows our stuff. She's got a good track record, she's professional. That's what they want to.

[Tanya]

That's what they want to believe. I guess that's what you've got to do, haven't you? Rather than say, I've always drawn all my life and you know, they don't want to know. I've lived in Hong Kong for ages.

[Jerry]

Well, this is it. Like, clients don't really care about your personal life. It's nice to sprinkle maybe a tiny bit in. But even then it's point. I think probably publishers do care because they're nice.

[Katie]

Yeah, I think they do. Because usually if you're right, if you're creating a whole picture book, it's kind of linked with who you are because you're creating that project from scratch. So I think if there's something about you that's interesting and guides how your books are. I'm trying to think of an example of this and I can't. Well, I live on the coast in Northumberland and we're writing some books about a little sea dog who lives in an upturned boat, for example, and lives the life that we kind of live here. So I think for a picture bookmaker, it is important to show your life and who you are because also you.

[Tanya]

Write the material so it makes sense. And it's a long term relationship with a publisher. You provide the content, whereas Katie and I don't provide the content. We've got to marry up with these corporates to visualize their work for them. So we're talking to an entirely different bunch.

[Jerry]

It's funny because I worked with lots of corporate people, but I feel like they sort of parachute into their weird corporate world.

[Tanya]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

And bring my wonky weirdness. That's what they want.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

So then I kind of communicate. So like on my about page I try and say like, I know what you're about. I'm gonna bring this for you. And I'm a bit weird. Bon appetit. Like here's book a call, that sort of thing.

[Katie]

Yeah. You're gonna make their quite boring corporate meeting fun.

[Jerry]

Yes. And accessible and all that stuff.

[Tanya]

Hopefully.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

And yes. I'm like, it's all automated. Former queue fill in this form.

[Tanya]

Little do they know you're more corporate than they are in the background playing.

[Jerry]

At their own game.

[Tanya]

It's like people who are in kind of general business. Oh, do come to our dinner party. It'd be so fun to have an artist there. And you think, oh, I'm really going to have to get drunk and play up to fulfill the artist's role. That's like you going to do live scribing. The artist is here.

[Jerry]

I had an inquiry to go to a birthday party recently and I was like, are they having a keynote speech at their birthday party or like a talk or something? Or like a strategy to draw?

[Katie]

Strategy.

[Jerry]

Because I was like, I don't do portraits because live illustration is also portraits at events. And I think they'd just seen that. And I was like, you clearly haven't looked at my website. So then they were like, we just need some pricing. And I was like, okay, I don't do portraits, but if this is a really unusual birthday party with a keynote speech, I'll send you my pricing. And then they replied, they're like, no, you're right. I was like, I didn't think so.

[Katie]

It's your birthday soon, Tanya. Can we have a keynote speech at your party?

[Jerry]

I'll draw it. I'll live scribe your speech.

[Tanya]

Perfect. That'd be great. That's our abouts. So it's been useful. If you're kind of resisting the urge, you're resisting the call of being doing your about and getting photos, go do it. It's really good.

[Jerry]

We've got about page Bingo. In the business course as well. So if you're in the business course, it's worth finding that. I think it's like week two. I don't know what week it is. I'm lying. But if you find the about page stuff, we've got a guide in there.

[Tanya]

That'S like Katie shoving you through a slightly closed door and suddenly the lights are on you and you're so glad you're out there.

[Katie]

I think if it sounds overwhelming as well, I think you should just stick the photo, the best photo, on your phone on your website.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Katie]

And you should just talk into your phone for your bio, stick it on there for now and leave it a month or something and then come back with fresh eyes and edit it because it's better than nothing. Just put what you can for now, fix it later. Half asset, Katie. Exactly. Half asset.

[Tanya]

Yeah, that would do. Just don't have nothing on there. Yeah, because then everyone thinks you're a robot in this day and age and they didn't 15 years ago. Yeah, but things have changed a bit, haven't they?

[Jerry]

Good luck.

[Katie]

Bye.

[Tanya]

Bye.