Building a Brand That Lasts!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Goop Podcast – "Building a Brand That Lasts!"

Host: Gwyneth Paltrow
Guest: Emily Hickey, Founder and CEO of Chief Detective
Release Date: April 15, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Goop Podcast, Gwyneth Paltrow welcomes Emily Hickey, the founder and CEO of Chief Detective, a premier growth agency renowned for building some of today’s most beloved consumer brands. Gwyneth and Emily delve deep into the nuances of creating enduring brands, exploring the distinctions between running a business and cultivating a brand that resonates and maintains loyalty over time.

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Understanding the Difference Between Business and Brand

Timestamp: [01:10]

Gwyneth initiates the conversation by differentiating between building a business and building a brand. She highlights that while businesses focus on operational excellence and immediate metrics, brands encapsulate deeper emotional connections and loyalty.

Gwyneth Paltrow: "Why do so many companies plateau and what it really takes to grow with intention."

Emily expands on this by emphasizing that a brand's value surpasses its revenue by fostering customer loyalty and perceived value.

Emily Hickey: "A brand is worth more than its revenue, whereas a business is worth its revenue. And then a brand has other qualities in the sense that it drives loyalty."

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Brand Architecture and Storytelling

Timestamp: [08:59]

The discussion transitions to the concept of brand architecture—the foundational structure that defines a brand's identity and purpose. Emily underscores the importance of articulating a brand's "why" to differentiate it in saturated markets.

Emily Hickey: "When you think about rejuvenating that effort, that, that I just think is the path. Right. It's the link that straightens out the rest of the chain is brand."

Gwyneth adds that brands often lose their original mission as they scale, making it imperative to revisit and reaffirm the brand's core values and purpose.

Gwyneth Paltrow: "You start with a blueprint, and then basically it starts working. But you keep xeroxing the blueprint, but you xerox the xerox and then xerox that xerox."

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Customer Orientation and Loyalty

Timestamp: [25:35]

Emily emphasizes that successful brands are those deeply oriented towards their customers, understanding and meeting their needs consistently. She warns against brands that lose touch with their customer base, leading to stagnation.

Emily Hickey: "They're the ones that are oriented to the customer and to their market. Employee loyalty."

Gwyneth shares an anecdote about a founder who disliked his customers yet successfully built a sizable business by understanding and delivering what his customers desired.

Gwyneth Paltrow: "He understood her. He didn't like her, but he understood her."

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Examples of Successful Branding

Timestamp: [09:00]

The conversation highlights iconic brands like Apple, illustrating how effective branding can transform a company's perception and drive its success. Emily praises Apple’s ability to embody creativity and passion, aligning with Steve Jobs' vision.

Emily Hickey: "Steve Jobs really got it right when he said that brands have the ability to ratchet up our species."

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Challenges in Branding and Market Saturation

Timestamp: [52:07]

Emily addresses the current challenges brands face due to market saturation and decreased consumer trust. She notes that with the influx of products, especially in beauty and skincare, brands must pivot towards authentic storytelling to stand out.

Emily Hickey: "There's a big trust issue with consumers. Things are so saturated."

Gwyneth reflects on the evolution of direct-to-consumer brands and the necessity for them to infuse performance marketing with genuine brand stories to maintain relevance.

Gwyneth Paltrow: "At the birth of direct to consumer, it was all about just hacking growth. Now it's become much more of a brand story."

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Goop's Brand Philosophy

Timestamp: [28:16]

Gwyneth shares Goop's brand essence, describing it as embodying femininity and supporting women in their journey to self-actualization. She emphasizes the importance of creating products that resonate with their mission of empowering women.

Gwyneth Paltrow: "It's about the capacity to open and to blossom... women having the right to listen to themselves and give themselves that space to blossom."

Emily complements this by outlining Chief Detective's approach to building brands from the ground up, ensuring that brands remain true to their core purpose while adapting to market demands.

Emily Hickey: "Our purpose is to build the next generation of great American brands."

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Practical Strategies for Building Lasting Brands

Timestamp: [43:49]

The duo discusses actionable strategies for brands aiming to create lasting impressions. Emily advocates for owning key customer objections as a powerful marketing tool, using Jake Paul’s approach as a prime example.

Emily Hickey: "The easiest marketing in the whole entire world is to own your objection."

Gwyneth adds that brands should focus on selling feelings and concepts rather than just products, drawing parallels to Nike's "Just Do It" campaign.

Gwyneth Paltrow: "You're selling a feeling... like Nike does."

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Future of Branding in a Saturated Market

Timestamp: [53:24]

Looking ahead, Emily predicts a "thinning of the herd" in the next two years as investment in saturated markets like beauty slows. She advises brands to double down on understanding their customers and leveraging aggressive, authentic marketing strategies to survive.

Emily Hickey: "There's going to be a big thinning of the herd over the course of the next 24 months because the funding has slowed down so significantly."

Gwyneth concurs, noting the importance of differentiation and the evolving landscape of brand marketing.

Gwyneth Paltrow: "How do you convince somebody to use this skincare versus that skincare?"

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Conclusion

Gwyneth wraps up the episode expressing gratitude for Emily's insights, noting that the conversation provided clarity and creative energy. She encourages listeners to reflect on their own brands' "why" and to infuse their work with purpose and authenticity.

Gwyneth Paltrow: "I walk away from my conversations with Emily feeling more clear and always creatively energized."

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Key Takeaways:

• Brand vs. Business: A brand embodies emotional connections and loyalty, extending beyond mere revenue generation.
• Brand Architecture: Defining a brand's "why" is crucial for differentiation in saturated markets.
• Customer Orientation: Deep understanding and alignment with customer needs foster lasting loyalty.
• Authentic Storytelling: Effective branding relies on genuine narratives that resonate with the target audience.
• Future Challenges: Brands must navigate market saturation and dwindling investment by doubling down on authentic, purpose-driven marketing strategies.

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Notable Quotes:

• Emily Hickey [01:10]: "A brand is worth more than its revenue, whereas a business is worth its revenue."
• Gwyneth Paltrow [08:59]: "What branding gives is the ability to ratchet up our species."
• Emily Hickey [25:35]: "The biggest companies in the world are oriented to the customer and to their market."
• Gwyneth Paltrow [28:16]: "Women having the right to listen to themselves and give themselves that space to blossom."
• Emily Hickey [43:49]: "The easiest marketing in the whole entire world is to own your objection."

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This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for founders, marketers, and brand enthusiasts seeking to build and sustain brands that not only thrive in competitive landscapes but also foster meaningful connections with their audience.

Transcript

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Acura's all new adx. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything. To escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in. Hey, Google, turn it up. Okay.

[Emily Hickey]

Turning up the volume.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And crafted to be heard with an available Bang Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance. Google is a trademark of Google llc.

[Emily Hickey]

I've been counted out, dismissed, passed over, told I'd never be a golfer with just one arm. But the only thing that feels better than proving people wrong is out driving them. I'm 14 year old golfer Tommy Morrissey.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I want to be remembered for.

[Emily Hickey]

My ability as a champion partner of the Masters.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Bank of America supports everyone determined to.

[Emily Hickey]

Find out what's possible in golf and in life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What would you like the power to do? Bank of America? Bank of America NA member FDIC.

[Emily Hickey]

Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we.

[Emily Hickey]

Made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

View of love, people understand each other as if by magic.

[Emily Hickey]

Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there. There's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

They change their energy.

[Emily Hickey]

And when you change your energy, you change your life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the GOOP Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and today I'm talking to someone who's made a profound impact on how I think about business and brand, Emily Hickey. She is the founder and CEO of Chief Detective, a powerhouse growth agency that's helped build some of the most beloved consumer brands in the market today. Emily has a really rare gift of blending data and emotion, performance and poetry, helping founders reconnect to the deeper story behind their brand in a meaningful way. We talked today about the difference between building a business and building a brand. Why so many companies plateau and what it really takes to grow with intention. At the heart of it all, a deeper understanding of your customer and the ability to reawaken your team around a shared sense of purpose. So whether you're a founder, a creative, or simply curious about what drives connection, I hope this episode brings you closer to your why. Let's get into it. Well, welcome to the GOOP podcast. Emily Hickey. I'm really thrilled to get to actually share you with the world because Emily is an amazing founder and CEO herself. She has a company called Chief Detective that is really like this incredibly thoughtful growth agency. You've been able to help some of the most incredible consumer brands really grow and grow quickly. And I think, you know, for any, any person out there today listening who is interested in, you know, we, I know we have a lot of women in our community and men who are founders, who are leaders, who. People thinking about growth and brand. I'm excited because we never really kind of delve into the business topics here at goop. And actually at your suggestion, you know, when you were saying you, you observed that there were a lot of people in the GOOP community who are founders and, and you said, you know, maybe this would be an interesting lever to pull on for our listeners. And so of course, I wanted to start with you because of who you are in business to me and how, how impactful you've been. So I think, like, what I would love to do is talk, I think, sort of set the stage a little bit with how you got to, you know, develop this philosophy around growth. Like, what is your job? Tell us a little bit about who you are and what Chief Detective is and, and how you've kind of blossomed into this role in consumer.

[Emily Hickey]

Okay, so I run this, I co founded and run an ad agency called Chief Detective, and we are one of the top ad agencies on Meta in the country. And by that I mean by performance, not by size. We manage about $100 million and spend a year. So, you know, we've spent probably close to a billion dollars advertising stuff to, for the most part, affluent women, 35 plus. So we've held two.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Which is like the cohort, right?

[Emily Hickey]

Which is the co. Yeah. If you look at most companies that anybody in your demographic has heard of, probably most of them are, are like the buying power. Really? Is it really actually like a 45 plus affluent woman? So, yeah, I mean, that's pretty much what's keeping most brands in business for your, you know, for this demographic. So, yeah, I mean, we, we basically played a very meaningful role in building companies like Frank and Eileen Merritt. And Doan and you know, twp. Those are some of the companies that we're currently working with. I mean, I think we really get to work with some of the best brands in the apparel and beauty space. And we just tried to go shoulder to shoulder with the founders and the growth teams to grow the hell out of the companies. And we have a very, very good track record of doing that. And we have a strong point of view on doing it, which, you know, I think basically we take a testing, we really see these platforms as customer voting engines. And so when you spend close to a billion dollars and spend testing and understanding whether women are driven by self consciousness about their arms or you know, whether something is versatile or, I mean you just learn, you learn that people are all basically the same and. Yeah, so we have become I think probably one of the agencies in the world building consumer brands on meta and other social platforms.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. So what's super interesting from a growth perspective is that, you know, I've worked with other agencies, other marketers who kind of are all about like moving the little levers and, and, and focus really on like metrics which of course we always want to be focused on what's working and not working, but it's really around moving these tiny levers of like creative execution on ads and like this versus that. But without really ever getting totally underneath what is driving that sentiment or emotion under why a certain creative works better than another. Every brand has its own unique thing about it. How do we really articulate what that is? Like why do we exist and bring that down through, into all of the touch points, right? And I think a lot of women specifically come to me and they say like, I want to start something or I'm, I'm, I'm midway. Like, and I don't really know, I don't know which direction to go right now. Like, how do you think about brand? Like how do you, how do you define brand and how do you help brands get to their sui generis DNA such that they can be marketed than in the way that you do it.

[Emily Hickey]

So I think, you know, whether you are a realtor or you are a Fortune 500 company or something in between, you have the same goal, which is that you were trying to create enterprise value, right? And a brand is very different than a business, right? A brand is worth more than its revenue, whereas a business is worth its revenue, right? And then a brand has other qualities in the sense that it drives loyalty. You know, I think that the central sort of tension right now in people Advertising on Meta. And every brand is feeling this is that they're just buying transactions and that the customer isn't loyal anymore. And so it's not adding up to enterprise value. Right. And that's really what the brand is trying to accomplish, is loyalty. But I think also you have to focus on brand. For one thing, it helps you drive margin. Right? So if you're selling a commodity such as a sweater, you know, one brand can charge more than another because of the perception of value. Right. And the, the personality that you are giving your customer is, is essentially what you're building around the brand. So I think it's really the topic du jour, for one thing, because markets are too saturated right now, there's no barrier to entry. So whether it's an apparel company or a beauty company, you' dealing with a lot of competition.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

Advertising on social channels. And so brand is what lifts you up from that. And I think ultimately what you're trying to do in building a brand is to create something that cannot be competed with. And I think, you know, Steve Jobs really got it right when he said that brands have the ability to ratchet up our species. Right. When you get a brand, right, you're giving self image to your customer, right? You're, you're giving the customer your personality traits. So when Apple, you know, so successfully repositioned themselves with their Think different campaign, what they were giving people was the, the thought that creative people could change the world. Right? That the people crazy enough to think they could change the world are the ones who actually do. Right. That's what they gave to all of us. And now we all use Max to try to think of ourselves as being creative people. I mean, they gave us that feeling about ourselves, right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Finance teams don't.

[Emily Hickey]

To your point, if you're an accountant, you know, maybe you're still using a Dell, but yeah, that's what great brands have the opportunity to do is to ratchet up the species. I really believe that. And I think with goop, that is the, that's what you essentially have done, right. You've created a vision for womanhood that all of us can step into, you know, in a variety of different ways and that to think about driving the next stage of growth, you know, for you guys or for anybody, often the answer is to go back to what it was in the beginning. Right. Like, and I think that companies go through these build cycles and that that storyline sort of gets lost, you know, that the 1.0 team was like, so fired up and did things without Even thinking about it, and they build this beautiful thing, and then they all leave. You're hiring new people, and unless that's really blueprinted, you know, what brand ethos is and the moral authority of what drives this thing, you know, at its heart center that I think it gets lost, and then you get just sort of all this frontal lobe thinking about what to do with the business, and it's just really different. It's not coming from the heart. You know, it's very different. You know, most companies get stuck at the build cycle of trying to get to their 2.0. Almost every company out there, they get to like 100 million or so, and then it. They. They're plateaued for a long time. Right. And so when you think about rejuvenating that effort, that I just think is the path. Right. It's the link that straightens out. The rest of the chain is brand. Right. And so you're going back to try to find the passion point of a business, what you're doing for your customer, why you exist, and you're building back up from passion. You know, I think that that just unlocks a lot of growth. So that was the context of us, you know, starting to talk about brand.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Because I think what happens is right to your point, it's like the. You start with a blueprint, and then basically it starts working. Right. And then you just. But you keep xeroxing the blueprint, but you xerox the xerox and then xerox that xerox. And so, you know, however many years into it, it's like the blueprint, which is really that emotional imprint of why you started in the first place, like, is a little bit blurry or abstracted or open to interpretation, Right?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So how easy or difficult is it in. In your view for a brand to like, really get back to the point? Like, is that. Is it easy for people to do that? Like, does it. Does it require a certain, like, intellectual honesty from the people that work there? Like, what is that process?

[Emily Hickey]

I think it's really hard. I mean, just in our chair, you know, we come into business after business after business and try to help. Like, that's often the scenario. It's like, okay, we got this far. Now we need to get the next pocket of grand growth unlocked. What are we going to do? And they. You get, you know, handed what's called a brand equities deck, which is something that a branding agency probably did, like, on day one. And what you can tell from that is like, okay, these are the fonts we should use, these are the graphics. But it doesn't make marketing obvious. And I think that's where so many teams get stuck is they don't know what events should we do, what collabs like those decks don't really get underneath to the river running underneath the company. Which is what you're asking about, which is the why. Right. And I think that's very, very hard to do. And why is that hard? I think it's hard because purpose whispers, as we always say. Like it's this wispy thing that you're trying to articulate purpose and identity and turn it into something that the rest of the business can execute on, you know. And so I think that's where these exercises, like most brands go through the same exercise to figure out what their brand architecture is and what they're all about and the key storylines and the messaging beats, but I just don't think they get it right, you know, and.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Are they, are they like, are they looking at kind of, I guess it depends on the company, but are they looking at like data of what's performed in order to let that inform who they are? Or are they, are they willing to like bend the whole thing and really go back even if something's like working on paper in order to get to the next phase of growth? Like, I guess what I'm asking is, is it essential to not abandon the reason that you started?

[Emily Hickey]

Yes, I think that, I think that's essential and I think they often don't know it in the first place. You know, even like a pretty mature company. I don't know that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like, give me an examp.

[Emily Hickey]

Like try to use an example who isn't a client, I mean, or like, you know, what do you think goop is about.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Acura's all new adx, a compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything to escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in.

[Emily Hickey]

Hey Google, turn it up.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

[Emily Hickey]

Turning up the volume.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And crafted to be heard. With an available Bang and Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance. Google is a trademark of Google llc. I think a lot of businesses are started by people way smarter than me who have a great business plan. Like they see white space or they see a problem to solve and they put together a business plan and they're probably get to a place where they're like, wait, why Do I exist? Oh, I. Because there was a white space in the market. Like, no, but they're over indexing on like, operational excellence and stuff like that. In my case, it was like all why. The whole thing was why.

[Emily Hickey]

Right, right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And like, no business plan, no operational excellence whatsoever. So, like, I think in my case, like, the why was permission for women, right? Like, you know, and sort of to touch on what you were saying around Steve Jobs. Not that I ever drew this parallel, but, like, what would it look like if we could cast off these pretty constricting restraints around who we're supposed to be as women, what we're allowed to do, how many things were allowed, you know, how many different Personas or archetypes were allowed to be at the same time? You know, I think I felt like I wanted both the best access to the best information, like, as a really strapped for time, really busy working mother. Like, I wanted the Internet to deliver on this promise of, like, you can have all the best at your fingertips. Which at the time when I started goop, I couldn't find that. Like, I couldn't find information and recipes and travel tips and. And all that kind of thing that I felt spoke to me. And also that I could feel this, like, burgeoning sense that there was more out there for us, you know, and that we. We should be able to be allowed to ask questions and to be iconoclasts and to bust things down. And if we had questions around our wellness, you know, mental, sexual, physical and otherwise, like, we were not given the trust. We were not given the authority to be our own stewards and to have that own agency. So I had this, like, you know, weird idea that, like, there should be a place on the Internet for women like me who wanted to read about some cutting edge thing, not for the sake of, like, talking about it at the dinner, at a dinner party, but to tap into our full potential and power. And if no one else was going to give us permission, like, could we be brave enough to give permission to ourselves? Just, like, fucking take it.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And while being like, you know, not. Not being, you know, embarrassed of wanting to be educated and wanting to find like, the best of the best, like, was there. Was there. And I guess, like, at the. At the. At the essence, that's just like a certain kind of, you know, like there's there was something a little bit. What's the word I'm looking for? Like, you know, there was something a little bit punk about it.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I don't know, it was like a weird it was, it was. And I, and of course, like, I didn't know how to turn that into a business and I didn't know, you know, but I, I did want to explore content and recommendations and products that would kind of like serve as the, you know, levers to have that kind of life.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. Yeah. No, well, that's, I mean, that's the starting point with a founder led brand is why did you start this business?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

I think that is literally the first question I asked you is why did you start Goop?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. What did I say? Was it that all over the place and meandering? No. Probably more. Wasn't. Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

Much worse. No, I mean, you said, you know, you said it was a time in your life where you didn't feel a lot of agency.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

And that you needed a lifeline and that, that, that was, it was like something that you did for yourself in a lot of ways. Like, is that right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think. Yes. I mean, I think it was at a time in my life where I had little kids, I was living in London, I had, like, decided to step away from acting. And I think I wanted, you know, I also think that I had this yearning to create something. I think when you are an actor, you have all of this, like, creativity surging through you, and yet you're waiting for someone to give you a job. You know, you're not creating something.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like, you are being cast in a role that's already written by somebody else and being directed by somebody, and you're, you're, you know, you are something on the canvas, which is amazing too. Like, I, I love doing that, but I think I wanted to own something. I wanted to, I wanted to be able to make something, you know, make a recipe and put it out there, you know, not wait for someone to give me permission to put art out into the world or, you know, put an idea out into the world. So I think I wanted that visceral connection. And, and I think, you know, I, and I wanted to tap into that, like, river of creativity without going off, you know, to a foreign country and doing a movie.

[Emily Hickey]

Right, right, right. And I think the other. So just to zoom out, the other Steve Jobs thing, that there's a part of humanity that makes us want to be poets instead of investment bankers. And that poetic side of our nature is where products, good product comes from. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think, yeah, we talk about that a lot. I think about how, like, I don't know, this is a total digression, but, you know, we obviously live in a hyper Capitalist society, right. Where we're rewarded for. And I see this a lot too, with like, my. My. My. My kids. Friends who are all studying finance, atmo and atma and econ and, you know, and in college and it's, you know, it's like there's this premium placed on. This cultural premium placed on, like, financial excellence. But, like, you know, when I remember once we were talking in, I think, my living room somewhere and, you know, we were talking about this deep desire to contribute a verse like Walt Whitman talked about. Like. Like we have. We have this deep yearning to make our lives mean something and like, to contribute in some. In some way. And I think that's where the entrepreneur, the artist, like, come. It comes from that seed, right, of wanting to contribute something, which is very different than someone wanting to make a billion dollars. Right. It's. They're. They're almost like completely opposed.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. Yeah, that's right. It's totally different. And I think what I mean, to continue obsessing over Apple, like, that's what he showed, I think, is that the combination of that poetic side, that instinct to create brand and product and things that ratchet up our species, plus just an absolutely competitive, animalistic approach to business excellence and market dominance.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I mean, that's really like the gold standard.

[Emily Hickey]

It's the intersection, you know, and that's, you know, he created the most valuable company in the world at that intersection. But the brand side is so important. It's what. Everything's. It's. It's the taproot of. Of how you connect with your customers and take a market.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know, are there brands that you look at and go, God, I'd love to get my hands on that.

[Emily Hickey]

And as an advertiser, no, like, as.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I would love to, like, go pull that founder into a corner and explain to them the opportunity that they have, for example, like, where they've lost their way as a brand.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think, yes, we have a couple clients like that where maybe like a private equity firm bought it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Exactly.

[Emily Hickey]

And it. And that's a classic case where it almost 100% of the time loses its way from the heritage of it, you know, and so, yeah, I mean, I think almost every brand hits this. They kind of. The canoe crashes up on the shore, and there they are, you know, stock, and they've got to figure out a way to push off and get back to the 2.0, and it's always going back to the beginning. So the process is basically to what to do the brand architecture Kind of from scratch, which is you figure out the why, the river underneath it, the soul. You know, the one thing like what is the soul of this company? What is the tap root of emotion behind this thing? That is the purpose whispers thing. Very hard to get your hands around. But you have to and you must. And then drilling that down to kind of like, like I always used to debate, do brands need a tagline? Do you need a tagline? Every company debates that and I think the answer is yes. You need it just as a forcing function to make you get down to the one thing you.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well, not like it doesn't have to be a consumer facing tagline.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. It doesn't have. You have to put on the package, you do anything with it, but you got to get your hands around it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And everybody at the company needs to know what it is.

[Emily Hickey]

Yes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What's yours at Chief Detective?

[Emily Hickey]

Excellence. We, we are 100% committed to excellence.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. And our purpose is to build the next generation of great American brands. We take like, like growth hacking as a marketing tactic, you know, just the velocity and weirdness and excellence of growth hacking and put it into service of building the next generation of great American brands. So that's why we exist.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And how are you able to do that? Like tactically?

[Emily Hickey]

I mean, basically I've spent 30 years building companies and have just developed out a lot of frameworks. I take a first principles approach to building companies and I think that behind sort of.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What does that mean?

[Emily Hickey]

Well, it means that if you boil things down, it's a building blocks based way of thinking about problems that if you lifted up the hood on every single E commerce business ever, you, you basically should see the same thing. Right. But nobody really. Which is why, which is that you have certain, you know, you have product. Right. Or you have some kind of product pyramid, you have product happening and then you have buying and inventory decisions being made, you have creative being generated. You have, you know, they're just building blocks of how a company metabolizes and operates on a daily basis. All these autonomic things. And I think teams find a way of confusing that, you know, and it, it really is formulaic and there are facts of building businesses. And I think if you can look past the subjectivity and this sort of visible layer existence of businesses, you find these same things underneath these same pieces. Right. And if you can sort of have the discipline of stepping back and looking at the building blocks of what's happening, we've just basically, I've spent, you know, decades building Frameworks for how to build companies. Right. And just look at it with an objective eye and come in and put kind of a protractor and a compass on top of the business to say, this is where the growth is and this is what we're going to do. So that's what we do. And I've just spent a long time developing training and frameworks at Chief Detective, and we come in with the same point of view to basically every single company. And it works, you know, with a really high hit rate.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

When does it not work?

[Emily Hickey]

It doesn't work when the product sucks. Like, nobody wants it. You know, we're.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You can't put lipstick on a.

[Emily Hickey]

You really can't. Yeah. If nobody wants the product. And, like, sometimes you can't quite tell that. Like, you can't. Something stuck. You can't quite tell why. And that's the problem that you never want to realize is underneath it. But I think, like, often also the creative is really bad. Or, you know, they just don't know how to sell. They don't know how to advertise. You know, they don't understand people. They're not oriented to their customer. They're oriented to themselves as what they think is a prototypical customer, but they're not. You know, I think, like, being oriented to the customer is another thing that comes out of the brand work. It's so powerful. And like, they do those studies all the time, like, what are the most valuable companies in the world? They're the ones that are oriented to the customer and to their market. Employee.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. I remember I told you this once about a founder who built a big brand and who said to me, I hate my customer.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, it's like, so bad.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And was still able to build, like, a pretty sizable business. And that's always stayed with me because I thought, like, how can this person, like, how. How do they achieve success when they hate their customer and, like, openly say they hate their customer. They think their customer's tacky or whatever disparaging things person was saying about their customer. Like, I don't. How in your mind. I'm just curious, like, why do you think that business still could work?

[Emily Hickey]

Because he understood her. He didn't like her, but he understood her.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

You know?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

He knew what she wanted.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

And he gave it to her and charged a lot for. I mean, it's disgusting. I find things completely repugnant. Yeah, yeah. He understood her.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. Oof.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

My blood just started ran cold.

[Emily Hickey]

It's just gross. But I Mean, but that's not you. And you know, the thing about GOOP is that, you know, this is about life and you are about life, you know, And I think if you get to the river running underneath something, you build up from there. There's just a lot of power. So that's the. So just to zoom out and explain the process, you're trying to figure out the why. Like, what's the river running underneath this thing?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

What is the soul of this company? Get your hands around that. And then there's the what. What do we deliver to our customer?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yep.

[Emily Hickey]

There's the customer benefits. How do they receive that from you as a benefit? How does it make their life better? Personality traits. Right. Which is critical. That's the ratchet up the species thing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

And then your key objections. And you go through methodically, through a research process to try to understand what to fill in those storylines. Right? And then you're building, you know, storytelling around the, like, then you know what you want your marketplace to perceive. And then you're trying to figure out all your brand programming to push that comment through and make that a reality. And so you guys, what is the why? You know?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well, I don't know. I'm probably better at saying all this stuff when, like, it's just you and me and there's no. But I think, like, there's this incredible, like, almost, you know, it's, it's. It's the essence of femininity, right. It's like this capacity that we all have and this desire to, to fully blossom into ourselves and like the beautiful, almost fragile energy it takes to blossom. Right. And that. It, it's different than like, forcing something. Like, it's, it's not this kind of like, it's, it's. It's the opposite of an energy that like, has will, you know, it's like.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It in and of itself has this capacity to open and to blossom. And I think, like, so much of what I think about doing kind of comes from this place of like, women having the right to listen to themselves and give themselves like that space to blossom, which requires a vulnerability, right. Like, to come out of that tight bud. Like, you have to soften, you have to loosen. And then like, the energy comes up out through it and into utter beauty.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. I'm obsessed with that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But, like, how do you, like, for practical purposes, like, like, how does one do that?

[Emily Hickey]

Right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like, how do you. How do you. For any brand. But we'll use the example of this for goop. Like, how does One take this sort of esoteric truth that's at the heart of a brand and put it into product or tactics or like make a consumer feel it.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. So. Well, that's, that's the first why. Right. So let's just put a cap on.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

[Emily Hickey]

Right. And state that I think with other brands that's really hard. So the purpose of this brand is to support women in the pursuit of themselves. That's right. It's a completion path brand. It's such a, like a beautiful thing is that we're all that the sort of central obligation of life is to complete ourselves, you know, and that we're born with these instincts and it's in our psyches, it's in, you know, there's something instinctual about what we think we, we can do with our lives. And I don't mean from a career perspective, I mean from wholeness, you know, just becoming of the wholest version, the most like what you say, the blossoming, the most fulfilled version of yourself.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

And that, that's our job to do that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But it's defined by you.

[Emily Hickey]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, and actually I love like what you would always say about being non judgmental, like if you want to do whatever you're going to do, you know, do it. Yeah. So the next part of the exercise is, okay, what do we do as a company? So if that's our. Why, if our job is to support women in pursuing their fullest versions of themselves, that blossoming. Right. Then like what are the archetypal demands, you know, drives emotional needs of women? Let's understand those and articulate them so that again, the business can deliver on it. Like the ship that you could see underwater. How are we going to bring that up? Love it. But like there are certain ways that women are just instinctively driven to pursue themselves. Right. And so that's very tactical. We've had so many interesting conversations about your vision for modern women, womanhood. We're both working women and mother mothers. And that while maybe when we were in our 20s, that was about struggle because maybe certainly I, as a business person in my 20s, every room I was walking into was all men, you know, and you're, you had all, everything that you were dealing with in your 20s in your industry, but now it's for the most part I wouldn't characterize, I, I'm sure all of my friends are so successful. You know, every woman I know, I feel like has her own definition of success and has, has achieved that to a large degree. So is it about the struggle anymore. Like, what do you think if one of the big jobs of this brand is to role model a vision of womanhood to. To women? Like, what is that? Like, what do you. How would you define that?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think fundamentally it's about, like, this indefinable thing for each one of us. Like, what there's. I mean, look, I think there are definitely common denominators, right? But it's about that unified spirit of wanting to show up for yourself in your life and defining what. How that feels to you.

[Emily Hickey]

Right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like, that engagement, the dedication, the curiosity, the wildness, the freedom of spirit. Like, and there's, you know, really, it can. Again, like, there's no template for. She doesn't have to look like this or dress like this or whatever.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. Hey, it's me, Paige desorbo, and I'm so excited to share my new shoe collection at dsw filled with my favorite styles and trends for spring. Because if you know me, you know, I'm kind of obsessed with shoes. And by kind of obsessed, I mean head over heels. You're going to love these shoes. So snag super cute styles, like cute flats, fun heels, and cool sneakers from the Paige to Sorbo collection right now at your DSW store or DSW.com, you know, something we talked a lot about was just like, almost the new wave version, like, the most modern version of feminism.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, totally.

[Emily Hickey]

Is more balanced.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well, I think it's, you know, again, like, there, it's like, about. For me, it's about this latitude about, like, like, for example, my version of feminism is, like, the power and freedom to be, like, who I am also domestically. Right.

[Emily Hickey]

Like.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I'm not necessarily, like, a trad wife, which I also think is very cool, by the way. I'm like, totally. I'm into this trad wife trend that I just learned about. But that, you know, my version of, like, my version of feminism embodies, like, a homemaking part of myself and a maternal part and, you know, a sexual part and like a businesswoman and all the things and like, to. To create traditions and, you know, so there's some, like, I suppose, traditional values around that. So, like, want to go back to that and, like, make your husband breakfast every day, but you don't have to, like, that's just, you know, my version of it. So I do love this idea of everybody getting to define their own version of feminine power and how they're asserting that.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. Yeah, I. That really resonates with me because, like, you know, and just the thought that we sort of disembodied ourselves as women. Like, it's been about the struggle and pushing our way through for so long that we sort of amputate psychically some of the softer sides of ourself. It isn't just all about the struggle and about a career, you know, that just in general, we, I think, all get sucked into this rationalist way of.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Thinking and we were pushing back against something for so long.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That maybe has also hopefully shifted, like for our daughters that, you know, we won't have to be the first woman in the boardroom who did X, Y and Z. You know, it's like, hopefully culture is progressing to the point where there's not. So we're not approaching our trailblazing with like this againstness. You know, it's like we have wind in our sails. We have like, women on our teams at our sides. Like, we're able to do it in, in concert with like this powerful feminine energy. And our daughters will be able to. To do that too. And. But, you know, if I think about, like, what did female power look like in the 80s? You know, it was like a very masculine version of like a successful woman. Right. Like shoulder pads and, you know, sort of that hard charging, like, cut off from the. So it was like the softer parts were perceived as weak.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And like, you weren't allowed to show emotion in business. And you know, but the truth is like the, the archetypal female qualities of, you know, emotion and collaboration and, and sensitivity and creativity. Like, these are beautiful archetypal qualities of the feminine. And they do have a place in business. Like, they do have a place in, in building a business. And it. But it looks very different. And I think our generation has been the generation to try to shift that paradigm out of this. Like, you know, I'm gonna sort of pretend to be a masculine, you know, like, to embody the masculine in order to be taken seriously.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What would it look like if we were able to be in our feminines and lead from that place? Like, what, what. What would happen then?

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. Yeah. Which is. It's so cool, actually.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like, I think there's so much richness in that female inner life and like, I don't know, our priorities have gotten very skewed culturally. Right. It's like, I think, you know, for many of us, we are much happier residing in the richness of the fabric of our inner lives and, you know, music and literature and food and our female friendships and laughter and travel and discovery. Like, those things bring this. It's it's an answer. Right. It's like so. Yeah, right. It's like so many of us, I think, were conditioned to be like, I have to get somewhere. I have to cross some finish line. I have to, you know, I gotta like, be as smart as the boys and I have to. And it's like, it's so validating to just sort of recede into that, into your inner life and be enough, you know?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I think that's sort of what I'm trying to get to in my own experience right now. Right. So it's, it's not about prescribing some, you know, system or idea or way of life. It's like, no, what. Where is the richness of your inner life pointing you?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think the thing goes back to what you were originally saying, which is like this discovery around, like how the world can reflect something back to you about yourself.

[Emily Hickey]

Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Or however you said it, around, like brand, you know, like, which, which, which is why I love brand so much, is because you can be transported to a different version of yourself while you're like on net, a porter whatever. Yveson lauren.com and like, you know, deciding you're this kind of going to try to be this kind of woman, you know, in this next meeting that you have coming up or whatever.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And nothing does that for me the way travel does.

[Emily Hickey]

Totally. So they're the two sides of the brand work. One is this architecture which is just this sort of very linear spelling out of different storylines. The. What's like the shortcuts and cheats. The other one being events in community.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I think that's why it's so. I think that's why it's so cool that like brand events have become a thing.

[Emily Hickey]

Like.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I do think it's important to build community in that way and then have the, the people who identify your. With your brand come together and find each other.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. Yeah. No, it's awesome. And then, you know, the third part of the architecture is personality and that's where I think is like the most fun because that is what you give the customer all this stuff, but there's this extra thing that she gets right. That isn't necessarily. It's. It's like the exhaust tale of all of the effort of a company is what does she get? You're giving your customers a personality. And so.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And myself, like, yeah, you know, totally. It's also so rewarding to make stuff for yourself, you know, to your own standards of excellence. And like, I don't know, I find that kind of thrilling.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, I bet. No, like, but the personality one, you know, it was something that you do want to be able to articulate really specifically, because then that starts to drive things like the copywriting that you do as a brand. The visuals, right? The photography, then this adjective brainstorm. Like, how do you. When you think about yourself in your most actualized way, what. What are the adjectives that come out? But you know, when you. When you come up with those adjectives, then you start to crunch them into, okay, what are personality traits of this brand? Right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So every brand should go through this exercise, right?

[Emily Hickey]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And because when you nail that down, that again, is the gift that you're giving your customer as an apparel company or as like a lifestyle company. Like, what you guys are doing, you're giving her a personality, right? It's something big. It's something for her to shoot an arrow at, you know, in terms of the. This pursuit of self. It's who she's able to become by using the brand, right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What would the Apple adjectives be, do you think?

[Emily Hickey]

Creative, Passionate, you know, I mean, that is what that. That is. It was Einstein and John Lennon and Gandhi and, you know, that. That those are the people they chose to personify what they were trying to show, you know, and their crazy geniuses ad. I mean, it was brilliant. It was the. Like, almost instantly got them on the path of being the most valuable company in the world, but also being who they were describing. And that's the other really important thing about brand is that it activates you. You. Right? When you crystallize, like when you crystallize something as clearly as they did, a belief, a soul of a company of. We think that, you know, passionate people can change the world. We believe that they became passionate people who changed the world. That's right. Like, right after they did that campaign and saw themselves that way. It started with, like, the. The imac. Is that what it was called? With the colors on the back and like the ipod and the nano and then the iPhone and, you know, like, that is. They became that. Right? They became the crazy geniuses who changed the world. And that's not what they were, you know, So I think when you get brand, right, you activate yourselves, you know, so interesting. It is interesting. It's powerful.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

When you get brand, right, you activate yourself.

[Emily Hickey]

You activate yourself and you activate your team to be what. I mean, that you. You come alive as a team, and that's when it really starts to happen, you know, so cool.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What did do people, like, do? Do they put into practice something like that for their team? Like, are there. You know what I mean?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, when you get the brand exercise done, that's the next stop is you're pulling the team in and presenting it and getting them. I mean, that was like the famous video Steve Jobs is him presenting this ad campaign to the team.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

You know, I mean, it was literally that moment, you know, and they were just drinking the Kool Aid and they just sat up straighter and they became that, you know, and that's. You want to activate the hearts of your team, you know, that's how greatness happens with companies. And so activating the team to be so customer oriented that our mission is to help women become themselves, you know, and to pursue themselves and in all these different ways, that's very different than like, oh, this is my job today. You know what I mean? That's when imagination happens. And I think, you know, being unguarded is important to unlocking the brand. You know, there are qualitative parts of brands that let people in.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know, it's a really interesting insight, you know.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. But again, it's the poetry side of business. I just believe in that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

You know. Yeah, I really do.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And so if you're a founder listening to this, like, what is the directive for that exercise?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. So basically, I think if you are running a business and it is stuck, you're going back to this extra. I think anybody right now probably could find a lot of growth in doing a brand exercise. Because the central challenge of building companies right now is the saturation level of the categories. There are too many companies.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Too many.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, there really are. Like, it's the challenge. And I think consumers just look at the, you know, they're, they're. They're kind of arms crossed on things. They're not as trusting as they used to be. They don't want to deal with trying something new. Like, they've been burned too many times with crappy dupe brands. And like, the. So I think it's true. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I have very dry lips. So I've always been something of a lip balm and lip mask connoisseur, if I do say so myself. So I wanted to make the best ever lip mask, like, better than anything on the market, better than anything I ever tried, because it's what I needed. That's why I'm excited to share our newest GOOP product with you. The Nourishing Repair Lip Mask. Formulated with high performance, clean Ingredients. This mask delivers clinical grade results, increasing hydration by over 160% with just one swipe. The result, smoother, softer and more protected lips that look as good as they feel immediately and over time. At goop, we believe in beauty as wellness. That's why our products are carefully crafted to be clean, holistic and results driven. To try our nourishing lip repair mask or any of our Goop Beauty products, use code goop [e-mail] for 15% off your first Goop Beauty purchase. I'm really excited for you to try our products and I hope you love them as much as I do. What is it about these big brands that work and that keep like a customer's heart? Right. And what. When does it not.

[Emily Hickey]

It's actually a really, really good question that gets debated a lot because what they do is brand advertising. That is actually a really good question. Like when you figure out your brand architecture, then what do you do to bring this to life? Right, Right. And I think that the first stop needs to be just doing brand ads. You know, you're not selling a feature. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Or a product.

[Emily Hickey]

Or a product. Right. You're selling a feeling.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You're like Nike does, for example.

[Emily Hickey]

Exactly.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like the. Just do it.

[Emily Hickey]

Yes. Yeah. Selling athleticism or selling. Yeah. I mean, like you're selling here a concept of womanhood. You're selling a personality. Right. A vision for womanhood. Like that, I think is the first stop, once you do these architecture programs is that like you just want to do a brand ad and nobody wants to spend money on that anymore because it doesn't make instant money. But if you think about the biggest company, like. Right. You can't track CFOs.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Hate it. There's no attribution.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, exactly. And they really do, by the way. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So interesting.

[Emily Hickey]

It is. I mean, you have to just believe in it. But if you look at the biggest companies in the world, what do they do? Brand advertising.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And where do they put like, besides like a Super bowl commercial? Where, where does, where do these things make impact now?

[Emily Hickey]

Everywhere. Online TV streaming, Billboard print. I mean, like anywhere you turn right now.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Brand advertising.

[Emily Hickey]

Brand ads. And they're not tracking revenue, you know, they're tracking. They have their ways of tracking things.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

But yeah, I mean, there's no way that doesn't work. There's just no way that doesn't work.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

The biggest companies in the world, that's all they do. And so it's so interesting.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's true.

[Emily Hickey]

I know. And it's just I mean I was, I was actually talking to someone like high up at Meta the other day about this how much trouble they are having convincing brands like so many brands are stuck right now. That's an observation they have at Meta globally, right. Is how do you get out of just targeting the same 20 million people or whatever? You know like they see that, like they don't see net new ad impressions happening and they like so how do you do that? They think that there has to be an emotional layer on the advertising to get you out to another, to a bigger ring of customers, you know, brand ads. So yeah, there's just no way it doesn't work. But you can't convince anybody to do it. But yeah, and then the final storyline bucket is objections. You always need to understand the key objections.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

This is such an interesting point, right. Because I think our instinct not only said goop but you know, mo like just in general it's like oh it doesn't matter what the, the objections are to me or my brand. Like I just want to keep going, moving forward in a pure way and like I'm not going to listen to the haters. But it's very interesting to hear you talk about the importance of owning key objections. So will you tell me and what one of your examples if you can on like what? On somebody owning a key objection and turning it in their favor.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. So it's like when you have kind of a big daddy key objection. It's the greatest gift from a marketing perspective. It's the easiest marketing in the whole entire world is own your objection. And nobody wants to do it because they think by acknowledging it that they're agreeing with or that it's somehow not going to exist if they don't say it. Right. Which is very wrong headed I think because everybody's thinking it. And so the example I always give is Jake Paul, the YouTuber is a very controversial guy but I think the guy's like natural born marketer. There's some people who just, just born marketers. That guy's a born marketer. And I was watching with my son like the 30 minute like ESPN special or whatever on his, him becoming a boxer, you know and having like he does these pay per view events and makes like 40, 60 million dollars and I mean it's like he, he and he markets them. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And so when he's the guy who fought Mike Tyson.

[Emily Hickey]

Yes, okay, yeah, exactly.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think I've met his brother or.

[Emily Hickey]

Him but okay, yeah, his brother does the same. Yeah, I mean they're like, these guys are brilliant. Yeah, you know? Yeah, they really are. And so Jake was talking about, everyone was like, what? He would only fight. Like, he wouldn't fight real boxers. He would fight, like the. What's it called? The extreme.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like, yeah, the cage fighting. Yeah, anyway, so called.

[Emily Hickey]

He would only fight those guys. He wouldn't fight a real boxer. And so the word on the street, the objection was, jake Paul sucks. Like, he's a boxer. You won't fight a boxer. And so when they realized that that's what everybody was talking about, that objection. Oh, he's not a real boxer. He won't fight a boxer. He was like, that's the object. That's the storyline, you know, and so they owned that objection. And they filmed all these little like, iPhone clips of like a guy doing like, sit ups at the gym and being like, jake Paul sucks, you know, or someone riding by him on his bike. Jake Paul sucks. He won't fight a boxer. So they filmed all these people saying the objection. And then it cuts to the boxer he's going to fight. And it was like the guy before Mike Tyson, I can't remember who was. It was like some famous boxer. And so he does this whole pay per view event hitting that objection on the head of like, okay, I'm going to fight a boxer. So he owned it as the storyline.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What happened?

[Emily Hickey]

I mean, he made like, I think I can't remember if he won or the boxer won, but they both won because it was like a $40 million pay per view event, you know, I mean, like, it was brilliant. It was brilliant marketing and it was just an example of owning the objection. Like, there's a real power to that. If people are talking about, like, we worked with this brand one time that everybody thought it was snake oil and they refused to own that, it would have been. The easiest thing is, like, start it by saying, is this snake oil? That could be the opener on your ad. Like, right, snake oil, question mark. Like, all you have to do is own it, you know, like, it's so easy. And then you've got. You've brought people in, you know, and gotten them on your sides. I mean, like, so if those objections are out there, that just can be really powerful to like, to.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's very interesting, though. Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

So the step one was figuring out kind of the why, the what the customer benefits, personality traits, objections. And our observation of late is that, you know, when there is brand storytelling in the ads, they're just doing a lot better. So even though we've traditionally Been sort of performance of like we sit in a chair and make money for brands. Lately we've really had to focus on the brand itself and brand storytelling. And that's how, you know, we've started to do this type of work.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's a super interesting evolution. Right. Because like at the birth of direct to consumer, it was all about just like, like hacking growth.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

On all these platforms and now it's become much more of a brand story and these companies really having to infuse their performance assets with brand. Right.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep, that's right. Like we're seeing even when you put a logo on something that's working better, like multi touch marketing storytelling, like I just think there's a big trust issue with consumers. Things are so saturated. It's really the central challenge right now is there are too many companies in every category. And so brand storytelling is starting to really become the front burner topic for pretty much every company in our ecosystem.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

How do you think this shakes out by the way? Like for, you know, it's like I joke that, you know, anybody who has like an idea and a little bit of money can like make a product, put ads on Instagram and start a business, which on the one hand is kind of this beautiful American dream. Like everybody can be an entrepreneur. Ignore. But to your other point, the market is so incredibly saturated with product in every single category. So how does this, how does this end? Because obviously we've seen the rise of the directing sumo sort of softening of direct to consumer. Where are we in that landscape right now? And how do you. What, what happens to these brands?

[Emily Hickey]

Yep, I think a lot of them go out of business. I think there's going to be a big thinning of the herd over the course of the next 24 months because the funding has slowed down so significantly. Like investors are getting, I think it used to just be, you know, plowing money into beauty brands. I think that's really slowed down very significantly. And now they're like, okay, we have to get the brands we already have working and that's very hard. And they're not, they don't want to, you know, they don't want to like refinance and put more money into these companies. I think there's going to be a big thinning of the herd.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Are you seeing that a lot?

[Emily Hickey]

Yes, we are seeing that investors are really drastically slowing down their investments into skincare and to beauty companies.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can understand.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, no, it's, it's like hand to hand combat building those companies at this point. How do you differentiate? How do you convince somebody to use this skin care versus that skin care? I just.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

How. How do you. Because that's your remit.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep. I mean, so basically, look, I think you have to really understand your customer. You have to do this brand architecture work to understand exactly what needs to be said repetitively. And then I think it's a game of aggression. I think the best marketer is going to win.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the Goop podcast. I walk away from my conversations with Emily feeling more clear and always creatively energized. I hope this one sparked something for you, whether it's how you show up in your work, how you connect with your customer, or how you root back into the why behind it all. So, as always, thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.