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- [00:00]
Acura
Acura's all new adx. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything. To escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in.
- [00:11]
Cassandra Thurswell
Hey Google, turn it up.
- [00:12]
Acura
Okay.
- [00:13]
Cassandra Thurswell
Turning up the volume.
- [00:14]
Acura
And crafted to be heard. With an available Bang Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance. Google is a trademark of Google llc.
- [00:31]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Travel has always been such a big part of my life, and in a way, it's really what inspired me to start goop. I love discovering new places, new experiences, and finding those really special stays that make a trip even more memorable. Hosting on Airbnb is a great way to make the most of your time away. It's a wonderful option if you have extra space, own a seasonal home, or tend to travel at the same time every year. Hosting is incredibly flexible. You set the dates, welcome guests on your terms, and create memorable stays that reflect the warmth and uniqueness you seek in your own travels. If you've ever thought about hosting, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com hosting when you.
- [01:24]
Cassandra Thurswell
Are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas.
- [01:28]
Unknown
To the culture, you get criticized. You do. Yeah, did you hear about that?
- [01:33]
Cassandra Thurswell
I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until.
- [01:54]
Unknown
They change their energy.
- [01:55]
Cassandra Thurswell
And when you change your energy, you change your life. Gwyneth.
- [01:59]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go.
- [02:22]
Unknown
Welcome back to the GOOP Podcast. Today I'm super excited to be talking with Cassandra Thurswell. She is the founder and CEO of Kitsch, which is a brand that completely changed the way we think about everyday beauty essentials. You know them for their viral heatless curlers and eco friendly shampoo bars, and of course, the hair ties that started it all. What's even more impressive is how Cassandra built the business with no investors, no outside funding, just sheer determination. Unbelievably you can find kitsch in over 27,000 stores worldwide. And they're completely reshaping the way we think about accessible, sustainable beauty. I was really thrilled to get to sit down with Cassandra, who was just so inspiring and has me still thinking about micro intentions. I just am really excited to talk to you because I heard you speak this summer at the G9 conference, and I was really, really inspired by you and your story. And I just. Especially because I wasn't. I was, of course, a bit familiar with your brand, but not like, hugely familiar with your brand. And I was just so stunned at your resilience and perseverance. And I feel like being an entrepreneur, you sort of confirm this theory that I have that, like, entrepreneurs are sort of born or naturalized or socialized to be entrepreneurs, and there's sort of nothing else they can be. And I think your trajectory is so emblematic of that. So, first of all, I want to thank you for being here, because I know today's conversation will be really inspiring to our listeners. And then I guess I just wanted to start with a little bit about if you could share with us your story about how you started and kind of traversed through these different businesses until you landed with kitsch.
- [04:28]
Cassandra Thurswell
Well, thank you first for saying all those kind things. I mean, I really, it's. It is so wild that I even, like anyone even knows the brand still. I really feel that way because it. I don't know, I never, like, I. I always knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I never had this idea that I would be recognized for it. It was just something that I wanted to do. And that was never part, like, the recognition part of it was never something I strived for. So this is a really interesting thing to be on this podcast. So anyway, without going back to birth and starting my story there, I just, like you said, like, I always knew I wanted to start a business. Even when I was, like, 12, I was, you know, sealing envelopes for my parents orthodontic practice. And then when I was a little older, I was making retainers for them. And every opportunity that I had, I was. I was always looking for a chance to contribute. And interestingly, when I was making retainers for my stepdad, I realized how much I love to be of service to people. That was so exciting to me. And even though I would never meet these people, I would get like, the mouth mold and it would say, like, you know, Stacy Johnson or something. And then she'd be like, pink with glitter, and I'd be Like, oh, I can't wait to make Stacy's retainers. And she's gonna get to wear this retainer in her mouth, and I'm gonna be the one that makes. And I remember feeling like Santa's elf and, and making it and sending it off and thinking like, that was such a special thing that I got to do for someone else. So that was my first, like, experience of being, you know, on the other side of. Of a product.
- [06:25]
Unknown
Wow.
- [06:26]
Cassandra Thurswell
And it was. It's this. It's so silly, but, like, I really enjoyed that. And I think, you know, I had many businesses until I started Kitsch, but I didn't. I don't know how to say this, but I. I wasn't great at school. I was dyslexic. I'm just not like, you know, a great way of saying it. They. They say that the best coaches are not gifted athletes. They're just the ones that were the hardest working athletes. And I really feel like that was my entrepreneurial journey. I just, I was the hardest working at this idea of being of service and creating products and like, thinking about the customer and listening to them. And so when I started kitchen, I did not do anything traditional that any entrepreneur did. I didn't write a business plan. I didn't look for funding. I didn't do. I. I was just hand making products and doing door to door sales. And by door to door sales, it was B2B. So I was going into spas and salons and, you know, pitching the products, and I would just get turned down so much. It was so embarrassing. Some days I would get a hundred dollars in orders and then, you know, just to come out to my car and get a 50 parking ticket. And it was just kind of like. It was so bad. It was so bad. But. But I still. I don't know what it was. I just had this level of, like, I call it sensible optimism where I just. It didn't even matter when I went to bed at night. I just still loved it so much every day. Yeah, I don't. I don't want to keep talking. It's. No, please feel free to stop me anytime.
- [08:09]
Unknown
But this is why you're here. Okay, So I want to ask you a little bit about how you landed with the product at Kitsch, but you first had something like, I think seven businesses that did not work. Can you tell us a little bit about what those businesses were and how and why they failed, in your view, looking backwards?
- [08:36]
Cassandra Thurswell
That's such a great question. So a couple of them One, my mom and I had a small gift shop in Wisconsin, and I loved, like, managing that gift shop with her. But this is when, you know, Shopbop was starting to, you know, come around and like all these online retailers. And I thought that was the coolest thing. And I was like, mom, we need to take this business and we need to make it online. And I was like, I. I remember even saying to her, you know, I know you set aside money for each of us to get married. I hope when I get married one day I can afford my own wedding. Would you mind if I took that money and I made a website for a business? And so she said, sure. And so I took the money, and it cost so much money to make a website back then. And so I took the money, I put it toward making a website. It was called Cassie's couture dot com. And I. I photographed myself and all the products and. And I had some sales, but I was also going to school full time. And so I think there was this level of distraction that it wasn't, you know, you know what it was for that business. Because this is such a great question. Why did that one fail for that specific business? There was something about it that it felt too forced. I was trying too hard in, like, a non. It felt. It felt like effort, but it wasn't. It wasn't the type of effort that, like, you know what I was talking about before that, like, I get the hundred dollars and then, you know, like, I'd get the parking ticket. It was like I was pouring so much in, but there was nothing coming back. There was like. There wasn't great feedback. There wasn't like, you have something unique. It was just kind of like, you know, it was too much. It was too much effort. And. And I think that the customers, if you really listen, they will tell you what's great or what's not great about it, about your product. And when I was. When I started kitchen, there was so much great feedback all the time. It was like, oh, my gosh, I want to place a reorder. There was. There was momentum there, and it was positive momentum. But with my first website, it was like. It was like my body didn't even want to do it after a while, and I was just like, okay, this is. I got. I got to close this book. And I actually had no ego about it. I was sad because that was obviously my. My wedding money, but I still was confident that I could get to that place. And maybe I wasn't even going to get Married. So it was really easy for me to close. Close that book.
- [11:11]
Unknown
Was there. Was there a particular, like, thing that happened or day or like threshold you crossed where you. I. I'm done. I need to put this down.
- [11:21]
Cassandra Thurswell
So that was a long time ago. I was 20 when. 19 when I started that I think pretty amazing.
- [11:30]
Unknown
Like, that's so that, I mean, talk about entrepreneurial spirit. It's pretty cool.
- [11:36]
Cassandra Thurswell
Thanks. You know, I actually, I actually don't know if there was a specific moment, actually. Okay, there. I. I think I do know what that is. It was placing purchase orders for inventory. Placing purchase orders for inventory was something that, you know, I was going to school for retail merchandising and there is a science, you know, obviously you have to keep your books clean. You know, you can't spend more than you have. And when I was placing inventory for, because it was a clothing website, I was like, you know, one small, you know, one extra small, one small, two mediums, two large, whatever. Like, the, the size breakdown was I had no idea what I was doing. And so when I was, when I was placing those orders, it felt really ungrounded. And I think when it came to like, you know, spending another, you know, however many thousand dollars to get more inventory in, I was like, I. I don't, I don't want to do this.
- [12:38]
Unknown
Right.
- [12:39]
Cassandra Thurswell
It seems like a really irresponsible decision to continue down this path when, like, I know how hard it is to sell these products. I don't. This doesn't bring me joy. And so, you know, I think, like, the, this idea of reordering more products for the site was what kind of, you know, killed the. Killed it for me. Which is interesting because now at kitsch, the idea of reorders, whether it's reorders to my suppliers or reorders from my customers, that is such a big part of like, you know, our strategic goals. To me, reorders is the ultimate sign of success.
- [13:18]
Unknown
So maybe it was, you know, that I'm trying to like, get down to the sort of nugget of it. Like, as you know, myself, when I listen to you, sort of, maybe there was not easy product market fit or something in the first one, or maybe there was, but you didn't necessarily feel like you had the capital or the expertise to like, outbid Shopbop on Google and, and all, all the pull all those levers. Like, did you just feel like there, this is. There's no potential for this business or I don't have the skill set to actually do what it takes to make it ha work.
- [13:57]
Cassandra Thurswell
I love how you're digging deep with this because I, I, I completely get what, what, what we need to say right now. I had zero, I had zero drive to figure it out.
- [14:11]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Wow.
- [14:13]
Cassandra Thurswell
I had zero drive to figure it out. Because, because I can tell you there are, there are things that in, like, the younger me, what I'm doing now, I had no idea, no education, what I'm doing now. But I was so determined to, like, find that part of myself and unpack it and then fill it up with the knowledge that I need to succeed at it. I didn't understand, I didn't understand it, and I wasn't, I wasn't hungry to understand it. It wasn't feeding me. And, and you know, I, I think a lot of it was I was buying somebody else's product and selling somebody else's product. So that was probably another big part of it. Like, I had, the only skin in the game I had was this middleman of, like, you know, passing product back and forth. And, and truthfully, I'm not a marketer. I don't think that that's my skill set. I'm, I'm, I'm a service. I'm a waitress. I like to take an order and I like to go back and create it and then bring it back to the table and get that feedback. What do you think? And so, you know, I think that that just wasn't my marketing, which is a lot of retail, wasn't my passion.
- [15:26]
Unknown
Yeah. Because it's almost like if, if you're just a marketplace, it's almost like it's a different entrepreneurial spirit. Right. Like, it is not really identifying a white space, feeling that, like, surge of energy, like, I want to solve this problem and then solving it and getting that feedback and that continual feedback loop you're describing with the customer. It's like, I'm buying someone else's shit. How am I going to sell this shit?
- [15:58]
Cassandra Thurswell
And you're beholden to the other person's product, to the customer satisfaction level. You can do the customer service portion of it, but it ultimately doesn't. Like, the loyalty is to the brand, not to the merchant.
- [16:13]
Unknown
So kind of net, net what you're like, if you're taking the advice from that specific business and extrapolating it out, you would say what would be like, the advice that comes from the lesson that you learned from that business?
- [16:30]
Cassandra Thurswell
I think if there, if there is a real desire to figure things out, nothing will stop you. Nothing will stop you. Like, you Will find the book that will teach you how to do it. You'll reach out to, you know, people that you know that can help you. And you know, with that first business, like I didn't, I didn't even have the desire to do that. And the contrast between that and how I run the business today is very different. And how, you know, even in those first, first few years of kitsch where it was just, I was, I was so hungry, so hungry to be a continuous learner for every aspect of the business.
- [17:22]
Acura
Acura's all new adx. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything. To escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in.
- [17:33]
Cassandra Thurswell
Hey Google, turn it up.
- [17:34]
Acura
Okay. Turning up the volum and crafted to be heard with an available Bang and Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance.
- [17:46]
Cassandra Thurswell
Take your vibes on Google. Google.
- [17:49]
Acura
Google is a trademark of Google llc.
- [17:55]
Unknown
Can we cover another one as a, as a case study? Because it's very edifying, it's helpful. We don't have to do all seven.
- [18:04]
Cassandra Thurswell
But another one, this was a really, this was a very small business besides like a spray tan business. I, I did makeup. You know, there was all just random things. But another one that I had and I even went as far as to like go and register the name and do all this stuff. I really wanted to start a bamboo underwear line and I wanted to call it Bamboo. And I had spent pretty much my whole, my education creating this whole business plan and I was so, I was so ready to do it. And I remember sitting down with someone and I pitched them the idea and they looked at me like, you have no idea what you're doing. I like, doesn't matter how many years you went to school. Underwear is a really hard business. The name is just comical. Come to find out that the name was actually taken. And so I would have had to change the name anyway when I went into, into business. But the lesson on that one was if you really, if you really feel like this is what you want to do. I wouldn't even consult friends or family. I wouldn't even just go there because it, it sets up so many pillars of doubt and it makes you almost become like a weird defensive. And you know what it is? I was, I was searching for this external validation that my idea was good, that I was on the right track. On the right track. And I know when I started kitsch. I told nobody. I literally just did it. And I think that that was a big difference between the underwear business and the hair accessory business was I just, there was zero consulting. I did consult professionals. I didn't consult friends, family or anybody that would, that knew me to the point that, you know, it would become like a daily conversation.
- [20:17]
Unknown
Right. Had you gotten to like the prototype stage with the underwear? Had you dealt with supply chain stuff?
- [20:24]
Cassandra Thurswell
No supply chain. But because I was at fidm, we had all of the resources for prototyping. We had fab, I had fabric samples. Like we were all the way. But from a financial investment standpoint, that was a really small, that was a really small investment. Because once I got to that, the roadblock with the name, it was like, it was kind of like, okay, my friend thinks it's a bad idea. I, you know, like I'm, it's clearly, I don't know what I'm doing. Even though I just finished a fashion school, I just got a fashion degree and the name is taken. And I was really, I think I was really heavily influenced by others on that one.
- [21:06]
Unknown
And how old were you then?
- [21:09]
Cassandra Thurswell
So that would have been 23.
- [21:13]
Unknown
You were 23?
- [21:14]
Cassandra Thurswell
23, yeah.
- [21:16]
Unknown
Right. So still, still young. And I think a lot of women certainly in our culture are still outsourcing their validation. Right. To other, other people. But you bring up a really interesting point there, because I always feel like part of being an entrepreneur is to have so much self belief that other people do think you're crazy when you tell them what the idea is, you know, and sometimes it's, sometimes I think it doesn't behoove the entrepreneur to sort of kick the idea around. First of all, I do think there's something interesting energetically about like keeping a cocoon around an idea, not so that someone else will steal it or anything like that. Like letting it germinate in its shell a bit, you know. So then after seven of these attempts, like where did you find that? I don't know, that sort of like in internal momentum and drive to go for it with the seventh one, like, it's so beautiful to me because it is such crazy self belief, which is something that I know as a founder you just need to have all the time in the face of everything and criticism and you know, like netsuite failures and I don't know all the things that go wrong. But like in my case, for example, I had one career which was acting right. And I was like, I did pretty well and then I was Like I want to try this and I have all the desire to do it and I want to do it so badly. And I, I always say this, but I think like art entrepreneurs really share that, that thing, whatever it is. But like my, the data that I had accumulated about right. Was like, yeah, you could probably, I don't know, maybe you succeeded at this, so why not try? And I knew I would get a world of shit for it. But like after seven times, like I'm just so inspired by that that you were like, you believed in yourself enough to do it and then you know that that was the one.
- [23:32]
Cassandra Thurswell
Yeah. The. I think that the biggest difference between kitchen. The other ones. One, I was hand making the product and I got so intimate with the customer and I think that, that, that was really different and I really put, I really put it all. I mean like it is the most bootstrap story that first of all, when you first bootstrap a business, people think it's cute. Oh, that's cute. Yeah. Cute project. After a while it's like, oh, that's a nice, it's a nice project. Whatever, you know, like it's being a bunch of. And then I've been in this for 15 years. Yeah. And now people are asking me to share my story. I'm like, it's, it isn't. The first, like five years are very, they're not cute. And so when you ask me this, like what was it the first couple? Let me think about. I'm like putting myself back in that at my desk that I still owned, that I still own at my house right now. And I am listening to some sort of like self help book and I'm hand making hair accessories. So I'm sitting there like trying to like keep myself in a good headspace and putting, putting each one together by hand. And what, what really kept me going was then going out there and showing the product and seeing how excited people were. And I think that that is such an underrated, an underrated opportunity for any entrepreneur to just put your. Make yourself so vulnerable. Which is the opposite of what I did. I made myself vulnerable to friends and asked about the business idea. I made the product and I made myself so vulnerable in, in the, in, in a salon, in front of a buyer, in front of these people that you know, some people would be like, you know, I don't think the salon will carry it, but can I buy some? And it would be, it would be like those type of, those types of interactions where it was so validating that what I Made was something people wanted, right? And so that kept me going. And, and then when people would say, oh, it's too small, I'd go home and I'd fix it. And then I'd be back the next day, I'd be like, I made it bigger just for you. And then, you know, they would buy it. And so, but then I took it a step further. And when I was working with those, with people that would buy the product, you know, they would say things like, well, what else can you make me? I mean it was, it was, it was like a craft shop. What else can you make me? And so that's how, you know, we grew into this real lifestyle brand over, over the many years. But, but I think that, that it was, you know, you know, you know, a great way to put it because I really believe that because I dream big. I love dreaming big. I think, I really think anything's possible and, but I think the secret to my success was the little tiny wins. It was the, the little ones that, you know, that, that kept me going. It was like, I made a sale today, I can go to bed knowing I did one thing right. And I really had a lot of gratitude and I have a lot of these micro intention practices that I do still to this day. They feel like really contributed to the, to the company's success.
- [26:58]
Unknown
And I'm going to ask you about those later because they're amazing. But you get the idea for a hair tie. Which one was the first one, by the way? Because there are a bunch of them.
- [27:13]
Cassandra Thurswell
So it was one product, it was this flat elastic and I, I say this all the time. I was, there were, there were other people making the elastic. It's not like I was this inventor. It's been around, it was around. What I did that was different was I took the elastic because I saw the product in the marketplace and the edges were all frayed, the sizing was inconsistent, it wasn't on a cute packaging. And I was like, I could do this out of my apartment and I can make it cuter. And I bet if I, because I had just finished fit them. I bet if I, you know, this is a polyester material, if I took a lighter to the end, I would singe the end that wouldn't fray. I've just created a much better product. And so I sitting there measuring out every single one, taking a lighter and singing the edge of each and each and every hair tie. So it was this flat elastic and I didn't need a machine to make it. That was the very first one that we made.
- [28:17]
Unknown
And so that's the one that you were kind of going around to salons and. Yeah. And then why did you name it Kitsch?
- [28:27]
Cassandra Thurswell
So I had this dream of starting a business, and I was already kind of dabbling making products, and I was listening to Sarah Blakely talk about her success and all the, you know, all of. All of the things that, you know, her mindset and even her talking about how she named Spanx, and she was talking about, you know, the most successful businesses have some sort of exotic sound, and that's why she put the X on the end of Spanx. And. And I was like, okay, okay, how. What am I doing right now? And I'm like, I'm sitting on my floor. I'm making hair ties. They're like cute neon colors. It's kind of kitschy. And. And I was like, oh, I should call it. I should call it Kitsch. And that's how. That's how I came up with the name.
- [29:19]
Unknown
And then. Did you create a business plan at the same time that you created the idea and the product?
- [29:28]
Cassandra Thurswell
I did not create a business plan. I mean, I kind of created a business plan, but I didn't realize it at the time, but I was actually creating a lifestyle plan. And what I did was I took out a piece of paper and I was writing out, why do I want to start a business? You know, asking me, like, really important questions that I think we miss. I mean, there's obviously, like, what does the brand stand for? And all of these things that are beautiful books that people create with branding agencies, you know, when they create a new brand. But for me, it was like, for. As. As a. As a person, like, why do I need to start a business? What is it in me? And, you know, like, what. What effect do I want to have on the world? And what.
- [30:14]
Unknown
What was the answer?
- [30:16]
Cassandra Thurswell
I mean, it was really simple. I wanted to make products that people loved and reordered. I remember writing, like, the reorder part on there, because I knew that that was really important. And I also wanted financial stability. So, you know, that was a. That was really important to me. I had student loans and, you know, and. And the other thing. The other part that I. I thought was. Was really important to me was creating a great place where people could work. That was also extremely important to me. But then I thought the next part of my. I'm going to air quote my business plan was, what does my life look like? If this is what essentially I define success for the Business, great place to work, products that people reorder, you know, having some sort of financial freedom, stability. And this goes back to that. Like, you know, there's the big goals, but then there's like, the little goals, like, what is a day in the life of someone who lives like that look like? And so I would write, like, how many hours am I willing to work? Do I travel? You know, am I going on vacations? And are. Am I. Am I going out to eat? Do I go to the movies on the weekend? Like, I. And I remember just spending so much time in creating this kind of realistic life for myself. It was very deliberate. And so for me, I. It was very clear that I was all in. I was really okay with not going to birthday parties, not traveling, not going out to eat, doing all this stuff, because, like, this is all I wanted. This was what success was to me. And so when I created that schedule and opportunities kind of came across my plate, it was really comfortable for me to say, you know, I. I'm going to work this weekend. No, I'm. I've got. I've got to have a focus right now. I'm keeping my head down. This is what I'm doing right now. And that was my business plan. Essentially. What a business plan is is it puts an area of focus for everybody to. To. But it was just me, so everybody was me. I was just focused on this lifestyle plan, essentially. Hey, it's me, Paige desorbo, and I'm so excited to share my new shoe collection at dsw, filled with my favorite styles and trends for spring. Because if you know me, you know, I'm kind of obsessed with shoes. And by kind of obsessed, I mean head over heels. You're going to love these shoes. So snag super cute styles, like cute flats, fun heels, and cool sneakers from the Paige to Sorbo collection right now at your DSW store or dsw.com.
- [32:58]
Unknown
And so you articulated what it meant. You were willing to give up in order to create this brand into existence, but did you also articulate for yourself, like, was there a visioning part of it? Like, and this is what I'm willing to give up. Dinners, birthday party. And this is what I'm envisioning my life will look like if I do sell, if I do scale a business.
- [33:24]
Cassandra Thurswell
That's a great question. I, you know, I never. I. I never was like, I want to be on, you know, Oprah, or like, I never. I was never doing that. Like, it was just. It was just like there was this big vision of having. Having success but, like, again. And I wanted it to be like, something special. But at the time, I was really focused on this bubble of success for me. And still today, it's like, hey, it's great if we do these things, but if people aren't reordering it, it means nothing, you know? And so I still feel that sense of, like. Like, I don't want anyone to have buyer's remorse. It should have purpose. Like, this is. This is something that's so important to me. And, you know, even. Even now when I create, like, our strategic goals for the year, it still is so untraditional from other CEOs that are like, here's the. Here's the budget. Here's the dollar amount that we hope to hit. Here are these certain KPIs. I'm like, it's all about Net Promoter scores. Like, we need to know that people are willing to. To refer our brand to other people. It's all about organizational health, like, how happy and how. How highly functioning is the team. So it still goes back to the. This very. When you say my vision, it was. It's still that make great products have great organizational health and the financial freedom aspect of it being financially stable. And we were able. And still, you know, the. The only investment was the $30,000 from the very beginning.
- [35:11]
Unknown
And so I'm really curious what you. I really love the idea of sort of like the KPI being the NPS like that, because to me, that means if you're doing everything right with your product, like, if you're satisfying the customer, there is no important indicator of success. So it made me curious, like, what. Have you ever had a quarter or a year where the, where the Net Promoter score went down a little bit? And then did you. What were the steps you took to understand why and how were you able to rectify it?
- [35:52]
Cassandra Thurswell
Yeah, I mean, over the past 15 years, we've had some. Some launches that didn't go right. I'll give you a perfect example. When we first launched shampoo and conditioner in the bar format back in 2020, I can't remember because there's when the product launches and when the product is created. And, you know, sometimes it's two years before when it actually launches. But when we launched our bar shampoo and conditioner, I was so passionate about it. And when I. When we picked out the fragrances, I picked out something that I personally loved and I love, like earthy smells, like patchouli. And so when it launched, the response was like, first of all, the smell for hair care is like, number one. That's like, doesn't need. If people love the smell, they'll still continue to use it even if it's not great for their hair. But when I launched it, there was such an adverse reaction to the fragrance. It was like, it doesn't matter how great this product is. And so that was really hard for me and because I was so passionate about the product. But I, again, that was where I took a big. I went off track to the people centric strategy from the very beginning. Make great products that people love. I didn't, I didn't ask other people, hey, what do you all think of this smell? You know, it was like such a passion product of mine.
- [37:22]
Unknown
But it's a hard balance, I think, because, like, yeah, you know, and, and you talked a lot about instinct at the conference where I heard you speak. But I do find that a really intriguing, difficult and hard to unpack balance because on the one hand, it's like an entrepreneur is visioning something and has a really strong instinct. So for me, when people say, well, let's find out what everybody thinks of this before we do it, to me that like loses all the magic. But then there is a naivete in that because then you're telling the story now where, you know, you have a strong instinct to make a certain something smell a certain way, and then there's an adverse reaction to it. So how do you navigate that balance between market research and customer feedback and your own strong instinct?
- [38:13]
Cassandra Thurswell
I love this question. I love this question so much. So when my mom and I had a boutique was, we knew our target market, it was a very small store, and we were catering to that customer, meeting them where they were at. And there was like a certain, there was a certain energy around that store. That store probably couldn't survive in many, many other states. So when I wanted to be a product that was accessible to that Midwestern customer, I wanted to be a product that wasn't so, like, you know, wasn't so uncomfortable or unfamiliar that it was intimidating to them. And so I think that you have to know your brand to that point. Where is this a visionary brand, like a piece of art that like, you know, speaks to a very small audience. And what I'm going to do is I'm really going to inspire that small audience. And a lot of people won't like it, but that's what's going to make it special. And that's my business strategy. And I know that it will never go full Mainstream without modifications. And I'm okay with that. And like, and I think that that's a business strategy and that's okay. I think people think like, oh, we all have to be like these gazillion dollar brands if that's what you are so passionate about and that's what you love. Like, like, right, create a, create a clean book so you're profitable and doing it right and with, and responsibly. But just know, like, it is going to be fringe and be okay with it. But for me, I was, I'm thinking about my friend Brittany, who lives in Mankato, Minnesota, who doesn't order off of Amazon. Like, I'm thinking about this customer and when she goes to smell it, you know, is this a familiar smell that, you know, her significant other will also enjoy and everybody will enjoy in the household? And, and the answer was no. And so I didn't have an ego about it. Granted, I still really love the smells now. So I take my, like, the perfume that I would personally wear out of the equation and then now I curate it so that it's enjoyable to me. But it's, it's, it is more familiar to, you know, a lot more people.
- [40:41]
Unknown
But you're still, even though essentially you're compromising between instinct and market, you're still making sure that you love and believe in the version. So it's a, it's an authentic thing which will then resonate with the customer.
- [40:59]
Cassandra Thurswell
Yes. So a perfect example of that with the shampoo and conditioner. I, I also really like ginger. I like the smell of ginger. And come to find out that is also a smell that other people like too. So, you know, even though my personal preference of all time favorite, patchouli, I also really like ginger. Let's put that smell in there.
- [41:19]
Unknown
I do love that idea, right. That like, it can be also the spirit of something very unique and new that you can then figure out a way to make, you know, translate it and make it more widely appealing.
- [41:35]
Cassandra Thurswell
Yeah, yeah. Because I think I, I think. And I was a forgotten customer for so many years. As someone who lived in a small town, A Walmart was 45 minutes away. And I remember walking in and being like, do they even know who they're selling to? Like, this is clearly men who are creating these products. Like, I have $10 to spend and you've given me the ugliest colors and the worst fabrics. Like, I really remember. They forgot. And so there is a way to make a unique and beautiful smell without it smelling, you know, like a Car freshener. But, yeah, that's. I think that that's a good example, though, of. Of when something didn't work out and, you know, the journey I had to go to. To understand why and. And then redirect.
- [42:28]
Unknown
So then. Because now your shampoo bars are a hugely viral product. So did you.
- [42:35]
Cassandra Thurswell
What.
- [42:36]
Unknown
What made you keep believing in the format? Like, was it that direct feedback? Like, we love the product, but we hate the smell. What did you do with the excess inventory? And did you go out and get feedback on a number of new smells before you went back and reformulated?
- [42:56]
Cassandra Thurswell
Yeah. So, thankfully, we didn't order too many units. I still have one of them because I. I will. I will have it forever, because I do love that smell so much. But, no, we didn't order that many units. So when we. When we first launched it, we got. We got a lot of reviews on it. The other thing was we didn't color the bars, and the customers were like, I don't know which is shampoo. I don't know which is conditioner. The round is kind of hard to hold. So when we went. When I went back to. With all of this feedback, we changed our bars to Anschape for shampoo and conditioner. That was a big benefit to the customer. And then we colored them as well. And then when it came to the fragrance aspect, it was such a collaborative experience. And just like in my merchandising classes, because I got my undergrad at University of Minnesota and I learned about merchandising and why things are at certain places on the shelf, I really was like, what do people want to smell when they first wake up in the morning when they're washing their hair after the gym? And we really got into, like, the psychology of the smell. And, like, what. What was really exciting, you know, when you open up the package, like, do they want it really strong or do people not really want their shampoo to be really strong because they were perfume after? These were all the things that we were questioning. And it was really fun. It actually was more fun to hear the customers because we do a lot of consumer study groups, whether it be through our Facebook or through a couple of different platforms that we use. And now we don't let any product go on the market without at least 100 people testing it.
- [44:35]
Unknown
Oh, interesting.
- [44:37]
Cassandra Thurswell
Yeah.
- [44:37]
Unknown
And is it randomized or there are certain people you always go to?
- [44:41]
Cassandra Thurswell
So we have an internal testing group that is our first tier, and once it passes the first tier, then we go to a randomized group, which is you know, they can. They can come at us as hard as they want. But the nice part is, is, you know, once we know that those customers like it, we know we've got a real home run.
- [45:04]
Unknown
I just want to go back to what you said around the psychology, like, trying to understand the psychology of, you know, what is this person thinking when they are, you know, putting this product on their. In their hair, on their body, trying to understand, is that. Does that become for you? Like, what are they feeling and how do we want them to feel? Like, how do we. How do we enhance that or how do we, like, elevate that? Or is it really just trying to understand the psychology? Do you know what I'm. Do you know what I'm trying to ask? Like, is there a yes?
- [45:41]
Cassandra Thurswell
So this is. This is really interesting. I like this question because some of the things that I used to do was. I would go into. Because we're in Ulta, I would go into an altar store and pretend like I was a customer. What does it feel like to, like, walk into the brand, you know, completely unaware of, you know, where we're located in the store? How hard is it to find us? What is our. How is our product looking as it hangs on the shelf when I pick it off the shelf, how heavy is it? Like, I really try and go through that whole experience. However, I've. Again, from the very beginning, Kitch has never. I never aimed for the brand to be the shining star of the. For the customer's life. So, like, if you think about a piece of jewelry, like, you want people to see the jewelry, and you want, like, if it's a name brand or whatever, it's like they associate. There's like, this. Almost like this, like, know me for this thing that I'm. I'm wearing. I've always felt like kitsch is a supportive brand. And this goes back to maybe just not a good marketer and not telling people that we're the coolest and the best. But I think of kitsch and how, you know, when you're in a heated conversation and you go to reach for your hair tie and you put it up in your hair and you just want it to work. You don't want to think about the hair tie. The hair tie should just perform. Or, you know, when you just got, you know, your hair done and you need to stay dry or. Or you need your hair to dry quickly because you need to run out the door and pick up your kids from school, you're not thinking about the hair towel. You're thinking about your kids at school, you want the hair towel to perform. And so, you know, it's like these, these interactions that I think about the customer having with the product. It should make her life easier. But I don't necessarily think that she's like thinking about the product. But what I didn't realize now that, you know, like, we have so much incredible feedback from our community is people say, this is my favorite. I can't live without it. I love my spa headband. It's my baby by travel. You know, like that was kind of the aftermath because I, I like, I really, I really was so passionate about all the little things that we were doing. Even just the unboxing experience, experience of it. I wanted it to be so special because I didn't want to have that forgotten about customer in Amory, Wisconsin. You know, going into a store feeling like, you know, they, they don't get me.
- [48:17]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I have very dry lips. So I've always been something of a lip balm and lip mask connoisseur, if I do say so myself. So I wanted to make the best ever lip mask, like better than anything on the market, better than anything I'd ever tried because it's what I needed. That's why I'm excited to share our newest GOOP product with you. The Nourishing repair lip mask. Formulated with high performance clean ingredients, this mask delivers clinical grade results, increasing hydration by over 160% with just one swipe. The result, smoother, softer and more protected lips that look as good as they feel immediately and over time. At goop, we believe in beauty as wellness. That's why our products are carefully crafted to be clean, holistic, and results driven. To try our nourishing lip repair mask or any of our Goop Beauty products, use code goop lips@goop.com for 15% off your first Goop Beauty purchase. I'm really excited for you to try our products and I hope you love them as much as I do.
- [49:26]
Unknown
So when you talk about sort of the business plan was a lifestyle plan, can you speak a little bit further on what is the lifestyle that you envisioned? And then how did you see the product roadmap developing to kind of make that, that lifestyle plan be something that people could participate in?
- [49:54]
Cassandra Thurswell
So the first part of your question, how did I envision that lifestyle plan? So there were a few things for me that were non negotiables. I love taking walks with my husband every day. That's like such a big part. When I first started My lifetime plan was very different than my lifestyle plan now. So there was just, you know, really basic things that were, like, non negotiables. Like I said, taking a walk with my husband, being able to go and interact and sell the products to my customers. And what's interesting is the next part of your question being the roadmap that came so organically when people were saying, I knew the hair tie was better for your hair than that basic black elastic that we'd all been using for so many years. But the light bulb moment was people saying this. Like, this changed. This changed my hair. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting. I wonder what else we could be creating as this lifestyle brand. You know, from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to sleep, what products could we be doing to care for your hair that isn't shampoo and conditioner? And so that's how we got into the satin pillowcase. The heat was curling sets and, you know, the spa headbands for. For washing your face and thinking about it all the way through as a full lifestyle brand for hair care. And that was really unique because I don't think a lot of people are challenged to think that way. Like, we're a skin care brand. We just make skincare products. We're going to stay in a skincare lane. And for a long time, retailers didn't know what to do with us. And I remember saying, listen, if a customer is going to stop for a hair accessory, let her get her towel, let her get her, you know, like, let her go top to bottom and shop for all of these things because she's. She's there. And let's make it like a curated assortment of all of her favorites. And so many years later, now we're in. Now the biggest category that we have is shampoo and conditioner, which is so different for a hair, for an accessories brand to pivot into, you know, like, I'm not going to say liquid hair care because we're solids, but, you know, actual, like a consumable version of hair care. So the roadmap, to answer your question, came so organically with the conversation with the customer. What else? I mean, our. Our Facebook community is like, you need to make tampons. And I'm like, okay, I guess, like, we're like, we're going to stick with hair, but like, you know, in a more unique way. But like, you know, pubic hair. Yeah, maybe, but, yeah, no, it just. It just really happened. Happened organically. But I think that the lack of you know, product roadmap or, you know, a business plan. The lack of that and doing it so differently than what they teach you in business school was, I think, the secret to success. Because I was just listening. I was just listening. And they, it was. It was very clear what. What people wanted and what they didn't want.
- [53:04]
Unknown
I could literally ask you like, 400 more questions. You said earlier that, like, you don't run your business in a. In a typical way. And I know that you're oriented around, like, customer obsession. Are there other ways that you run your business that you were alluding to that, you know, are kind of outside the normal paradigm that you might want to share?
- [53:30]
Cassandra Thurswell
We're fully remote. I believe in the remote strategy. I think it's very controversial to. With a lot of my friends, but I really do believe that being remote exposes a lack of communication and process. So it is. It's constantly challenging the status quo to have a better system. Can someone open up a file and see in that very moment where we're at in a process? So I feel very strongly about that. And because we're remote, we have employees all over the world, and we have 200 employees. We also do all of our own warehousing and fulfillment in downtown Los Angeles. So that's really a unique aspect to our business. But from maybe a CEO standpoint, I think that there is. There is a lot. And my husband and I are in the business together. I think that we, we really strive to run a business that it's one of kitchen's core values, that people have pride in their work. And I think that that's something that isn't fostered enough. Like, do you really. Do you really love doing this so you don't have to, you know, you don't have to do this. I mean, of course, you know, you know, we all have to pay the bills, but you. There are many jobs that you can have that pay the bills. Like, there's. There's just got to be that level of passion here. So. Yeah, I think I'm kind of rambling on this question.
- [55:02]
Unknown
No, that's great.
- [55:03]
Cassandra Thurswell
Okay.
- [55:04]
Unknown
And. And then when you. You said, you know, you. You have like a micro intentions. Practice. Could you talk a little bit about that?
- [55:16]
Cassandra Thurswell
I really love talking about this. I didn't, I actually didn't even think it was special until I started talking about it. At G9, people like, wait, that's really cool. So I hope.
- [55:26]
Unknown
I think you need to write a book about this, by the way.
- [55:30]
Cassandra Thurswell
I really think, like, we were talking about before that There is this fine line between talent and hard work. And we spend a lot of time thinking about the clothes we want to wear and the food we eat, but we don't spend a lot of time thinking about the thoughts we want to think. And what I mean by that is we can put thoughts in our mind. 50% of our memories are not real. They're not real. And so I play a lot of games with myself to really get myself in this mindset of like, like I, even before this call, I wrote out like, what. How do I want to feel after the call? What's, what are the words that I want to come out of my mouth? That, like, oh, you know what? That felt really good talking to Gwyneth. She's like such a great energy and like, I'm really happy I did that. And some things that I'll do that are very pragmatic. I don't think it's crazy. There's no like chanting involved in this. But I will write future journal entries to myself as if it's already happened. In fact, I just did one the other day. I just resurfaced one the other day about, you know, getting into Target and being one of the fastest growing hair. Hair care brands in the space. I wrote that many years ago. And I can tell you, when I wrote that journal entry, the feelings that I felt from writing that was the same feeling that I felt when our buyer told us that at our meeting. There's no difference, there's no difference from the thing actually happening than, you know, pretending like it's happening. I have this quote. The secret to having it all is knowing you already do. Because I really believe that you don't need the thing to feel a certain way. You can feel that way immediately. Like, you know, well, maybe not immediately. Take a few minutes, draw a picture. You know, I, I send myself fake emails that say, you know, congratulations, your top selling brand. And, and then I'll, I'll go and reopen it and be like, oh, that feels, that's, that's the feeling I want. You know, I want, I want to feel the way of getting an email like that. One of my favorite things that I've been doing for years is I'm not a talented artist by any means, but when a friend tells me they really want something, I will draw a picture of a journey of them getting them to that place of wanting, of their achievement. And, and, and it's, it's such a beautiful exchange, you know, to, to pass that on to them. And we actually do that. We kitsch. We do something called Fortunate Friday. And someone from the team will bring to the meeting. You know, like, my parents are moving. I'm really nervous about them moving. And 20 people will be drawing pictures of this employee's parents. Having a successful move and feeling excited about is the most powerful thing. And people really. I don't know, it just, it really unites everybody. Thinking, thinking and wanting one thing together.
- [58:58]
Unknown
Oh, that's so beautiful. And such an exquisite and generous and magnanimous thing to put into practice. To like create a framework and like a homework way to help other people manifest what they're, what they want. That's. That's amazing. Absolutely amazing. So do you think that. So first of all, do you. Do you feel that way after our conversation?
- [59:28]
Cassandra Thurswell
I really do. I really do. And I, I'm so painfully shy. I'm so painfully shy. I am like, I'm like the most like when I, When I go to events like the G9 or wherever, I, I will go find the darkest corner and I will just stand there until it's time to sit down. Just because it's just not. I don't. I, I. Maybe I'll work on it. Maybe I'll read some books on socialization. I don't know. Who knows? But like, you know, it's just like, it's just not something that I'm really used to. I, I love being alone and working and doing all stuff and having really nice conversations like this. But what's so funny is. And I, I make this joke all the time and I'm like, I remember when I got to meet Gwyneth Paltrow and the first thing I said was, we have the same dentist. And I was like, that was really nice. Well, see you later. Like, it was just. There is just something about, you know, there's just something about me where I get super awkward around people. It doesn't, I mean, it doesn't matter if it's someone famous or just someone new. I just. The first interactions with people, I just, it's not my, maybe not my area of, of excellence, but, but you know.
- [60:39]
Unknown
Maybe, maybe not in, in real life, but like I think you energetically put. Putting forth this idea that like I want to feel this way after my conversation, like creates an energetic bubble where therefore, like I can come into that bubble and, and help and, and we can co create that together.
- [61:04]
Cassandra Thurswell
That's exactly it. And it. And so that was. This is a big one, right? This is like one of those big Mom, A milestone if you will, for, for me and my career to be able to share this. But you know, the, the micro intentions or what I've been calling lately are the minor stones is like putting, putting pen to paper before a phone call with your mom being like, I don't want to be triggered. You know, like I'm going to, I'm going to have, I'm going to be really gracious with my time with my mom today. You know, just like it can be so small. It doesn't have to be these like big, these big moments or when I put my daughter to bed tonight, she is going to cry and I'm going to confidently be able to allow her to sleep in her own bed. You know, like, it's just. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.
- [61:54]
Unknown
Okay, I swear to God, this is my last question. Who paid for your wedding?
- [61:59]
Cassandra Thurswell
My husband and I, we paid for our wedding. But you know what though? My wonderful loving mother in law, she bought my wedding dress for me and I bought it on pre owned weddingdresses.com and I, I'm a little embarrassed to admit this. I put it back up on pre owned weddingdresses.com and sold it for more than I bought it for. So I had to like, you know, really like I, I'm. I mean when you're bootstrapping, you really have to think about every single dollar that comes in your life. But, but yeah, so she, she was so wonderful. She did buy me my wedding dress. So. But yeah, we, we did it. We had a small 20 person wedding and my husband and I say all the time it was 18 people too many. But, but yeah, we, it was, it was great.
- [62:50]
Unknown
Oh, that's so sweet.
- [62:52]
Cassandra Thurswell
Yeah.
- [62:53]
Unknown
Wow. I cannot thank you enough for your time today. And you're, you, you're, you're really like, you know, I, I have the great pleasure of being. Of meeting a lot of wonderful entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs. But you know, few as inspiring as you are.
- [63:06]
Cassandra Thurswell
Thank you so much. That really, that means a lot. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate a compliment. I mean compliments in general are just wonderful and they're awkward to receive.
- [63:17]
Unknown
I know.
- [63:18]
Cassandra Thurswell
You know, they're just to, to have someone like you who really does. I mean your, your Netflix series changed my life. I'm sure you hear that all the time. But, but as someone who like, you know, has admired you and everything that you've created and you're such a multifaceted person, a compliment from you is like really amazing. So thank you very much for saying that. I really appreciate it.
- [63:47]
Unknown
I'm so grateful to you and thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode of the GOOP podcast. I hope this conversation inspired you as much as it inspired me. It really has me thinking about trusting my intuition and being open to embracing the unexpected in the way that you build life or business. So thank you so much for listening and see you next time.
- [64:23]
Gwyneth Paltrow
This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.