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- [00:00]
Diana Cohen
Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.
- [00:05]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Botox Onobotulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.
- [00:18]
Botox Medication Information Voice
Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Pain patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
- [00:55]
Diana Cohen
Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more.
- [01:03]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Bumble, the sponsor of today's episode is the Go to Dating app for finding intentional love. Something we often explore here is how transformation comes after change. The work, the healing, the lessons that help you feel ready for connection. For many people, that's the step before dating, the work before the leap. And when you are ready, Bumble can be that safe space to take that leap and at your own pace. What I love is how intentional the app is. Everyone who joins goes through photo and phone number verification so you know you're talking to someone real. And with ID verification, you can be sure their age as well as their photos are real too. Plus, Bumble has a dating advice hub built right into the app, like having a dating expert in your pocket to support you at every stage of the journey so you can feel confident as you put yourself back out there at the heart of it. It's about saying yes to the unknown. Even love after separation isn't the end of the story. It's the chance to begin again with more clarity, more intention, and more confidence in what you want. That's what Bumble makes possible. Bumble gives you the tools to make that chapter your own, and maybe it reminds us that love is always worth choosing again. Start your love story again on Bumble.
- [02:34]
Diana Cohen
When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized.
- [02:41]
Goop Podcast Host
You Do?
- [02:41]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah.
- [02:42]
Goop Podcast Host
Did you hear about that?
- [02:43]
Diana Cohen
I didn't find the one.
- [02:45]
Goop Podcast Host
I found someone I respected and we.
- [02:47]
Diana Cohen
Made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy.
- [03:06]
Goop Podcast Host
And when you change your energy, you change your life.
- [03:09]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to the Goop Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow and today I'm sitting down with someone who's quietly transforming the beauty industry, proving that clean doesn't have to come at the expense of experience. We talk about building with intention, leading with care, and the impact of taking your time creating rituals that keep us grounded as we grow. Intentional, creative, and deeply self aware. The lovely Diana Cohen.
- [04:04]
Goop Podcast Host
I'm so thrilled to have you on the Goop pod. You're one of my favorite founders. I absolutely love your product crown. Affair has been in all my showers and on the Goop website, I think, since pretty early on.
- [04:19]
Diana Cohen
First of all, thank you so much for having me today. I've been a long time listener. I remember your first podcast and I was like, finally she's giving us the juice and the good stuff. So thank you, you know, for making the time and space to have these conversations. I feel like I've learned so much from these conversations and you have this ability to like really get into it with people. So thank you for having me here today. And yeah, you were, you were one of our first partners. So I launched the brand in 2020 and it was pretty much you guys. I'd been a Goop shopper forever and that was how we were first introduced, I think before we actually met for the first time. It was through the curation and your, your buying team who found Crowned Bear.
- [05:00]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah, absolutely. I'm so I'm really interested in your evolution as a founder because you were building all of these very cool brands for other people before you launched your own. So will you tell me a little bit about your background? I know you were at into the Gloss in a way and a number of female founded businesses. Will you tell me a little bit about your journey. Yeah.
- [05:31]
Diana Cohen
So I grew up in a really small town in South Florida and it was my dream to go to nyu. And I feel like so many people of that era, it was like you went to New York and you wanted to work for Anna Wintour. But the time that I actually graduated, I wanted to work for Emily Weiss, which I feel like is such a testament to the time that I was in New York in the early year, like, yeah, the early 2010s, the late 2000s. And the Internet was just really happening, as you know. You started to write your newsletter and it was the most incredible way to start connecting with people. And I really fell in love. I always joked that I was born in the comments section because I used to like moderate the comments of into the gloss. And like that was where no one was saying tea then, but like, that's where the tea was. You know, it was like the real recommendations and what people were loving. And I worked for Emily and Nick Axelrod then who. Where I learned so much from in the early days.
- [06:26]
Goop Podcast Host
And so you started on the content side?
- [06:29]
Diana Cohen
Yeah, content, editorial, production. I mean, it was a one room studio above the no longer there Crate and Barrel. So it was just like a different era on Houston.
- [06:38]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah. That's amazing. And did you, what did you learn from your time in the comments? Like, like that you brought with you when you came to start doing formulations or like, did you. Did you come with a kind of like with learnings, like, or were you more solving a problem for yourself?
- [07:00]
Diana Cohen
Well, it's so funny. I feel like this is so much of how you started too, which is like, it all starts with recommendations and especially in beauty. You're like, okay, I like this thing about this product, but I kind of like this thing about that product. And I feel like the magic of early into the gloss days and what Emily first did with glossier was like, how do I take the best parts of these different things and like make them one product? So there were just so, so many learnings from that time. And I don't know also, like, I remember setting up affiliate links back then, which is like such a no brainer now. But it was like really, you know, a little bit, whatever. It was a really crazy time. And I was like, oh, this is so wild. Like someone can buy a moisturizer. And like, of course we were making like 72 cents at the time. It wasn't like that was floating the business. But I kind of remember just falling in love with consumer behavior. And it was when I was at into the Gloss that I met someone who I think is a mutual friend of ours, Eric Katz, who started Seed.
- [07:58]
Goop Podcast Host
Oh, yeah, she's amazing.
- [08:01]
Diana Cohen
She. She was my boss after Emily at a mobile shopping app called Spring. She's still one of my best friends. She's my mentor. She, you know, at my wedding. I love her very, very much. She's a special creature. So I worked for her for two and a half years at an e commerce tech startup, and that was where I really learned about, like, building brands and consumer funnels and all of that. And, you know, going from Emily to ERA was an incredible experience that I'm so grateful for during that time.
- [08:32]
Goop Podcast Host
Mm. And so, like, did you. Well, we can circle back on this later, but I'm so. I'm just curious on your point of view, because a couple of the places you worked, like, some of those women founders became subject to, you know, that kind of, like, public dragging during. During the summer of, you know, like, let's cancel female CEO summer.
- [09:01]
Diana Cohen
They made T shirts we were all wearing.
- [09:03]
Goop Podcast Host
Just kidding.
- [09:05]
Diana Cohen
It's crazy.
- [09:06]
Goop Podcast Host
Which was so striking. And. And as a female founder, I felt like. I don't know, I thought it was an affront to all founders because. All female founders. Because, you know, I think there are certainly decades and centuries of. Of men in business behaving badly. Far worse. And I would. And it still sort of sticks in my craw how that happened and why do you have. What, from your vantage point, like, what do you think was going on that summer?
- [09:41]
Diana Cohen
Yeah, it was so crazy because after Emily and era, I had worked it away for John and staff, who had, like, a very public takedown that summer. Granted, that happened, like, a couple years after I'd already left because I was the eighth employee at away, which was. I learned so much from that experience as well. And I worked for Ty Haney at Outdoor Voices, and I consulted with Audrey at the Wing. So, you know, so literally every single one. Yeah. Like, the running joke is like, I. Yes, correct. I think, like, five of my former bosses had very public takedowns.
- [10:15]
Goop Podcast Host
Was there a common denominator in there?
- [10:18]
Diana Cohen
I think being a woman, I mean, I don't need to tell you this. Like, being a woman makes it really tricky. I think that they were the first to do this. And I think, you know, the reality is, is often we're told, like, we're reinforced that we. Which it's good that we don't know everything. Right. But sometimes we hand over a lot to other people or we don't authentically Trust the people that we bring into the business. And I think what happened is, like, there were a lot of senior leaders, right? It's never just one person. It's not just this one founder. I think a lot of the senior leadership or investors around these people were giving them advice of how to grow and how to build. That was coming from a very place of masculine energy. And so much of my vision with Crown Affair, granted, it, like, launched the brand during COVID so it was just truly a different time. Is like, how do you build from a place that's more feminine energy? And I don't really think it was their fault. I just think it was like the time of move fast and break things. And for men, like, move fast and break things is like, sexy. And they make movies about this and like, it's a whole thing. But with women, it's like, the truth is, when you move fast and break things, those things are not things, they're people. And for some reason, it's like, you know, the women get really, really pinned. And they were. It's not that they were leading in a great way. I think there's a lot of learnings of what not to do from that time as well. But I do think that traditionally men get away. Like, it's labeled in a really different way. But the truth is, is like, these were never tech companies. Like, I was working for consumer brands that were treated like tech companies. So when everybody woke up one day and candidly, like, once the Internet started really happening, right, with tick tock and cost of acquisition, the CAC for customer acquisition was so much higher. And like, everyone was kind of on these treadmills and I think that they were looking for someone to blame of, like, why aren't these businesses working? But, yeah, it was, it was a really crazy time. And unfortunately, a lot of women went down with the ship that went down, but a lot of them have risen again and have figured out how to navigate this, this new world.
- [12:22]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah, and they have and more power to them because I just, I. I found it. You know, we all make mistakes as founders. We all, like every. Anybody who is trying to grow a business makes mistakes. And I don't know, I just, I felt that it was really unfairly weighted towards, you know, like, I just, I. I felt it was sexist at its heart. Right? Like, not that everyone's perfect, but totally.
- [12:48]
Diana Cohen
And I think the reality is, sadly, in this lifetime, I don't know if that will ever go away. And as a leader, it's just like being, you know, As a woman, it's like, right, you play the cards you're dealt. If we were both men, we'd be doing things differently, and those are the cards you're dealt. But as a woman, you need to be extraordinarily mindful. And I think as a leader, it's like, yeah, everyone, everyone is looking out to get you. And I think it's funny with Crown Affair, right, I have a different way into this industry where it's like, I don't want to say I'm an underdog, but I've kind of just been like a person in the trenches building these businesses for a decade prior to launching. So when I launched my business, I didn't have that many targets on my back, right. Like, I'm not launching massive distribution day one. Like, it has been this really responsible growth. And yeah, at times that's challenging because you don't have a silver, silver bullet to just like, post something and it flies off the shelves. But the benefit of it is, like, as IT company, we've been able to move with so much intention and I don't know, it's kind of like that striving for excellence while going under the radar is like, the way to build today.
- [13:52]
Goop Podcast Host
I think I have, unfortunately, have not been able to do it under the radar, but.
- [14:00]
Diana Cohen
But I do not the cards you were dealt.
- [14:02]
Goop Podcast Host
No, not. Not my cars. But I do agree that, you know, I mean, we're sort of similar in that way. Like, I think we've built slowly and with a lot of integrity and, you know, going down a few circuitous routes that took us off course and back on and. But I think there's really something to a slow and intentional build. And so will you tell me a little bit about. Were you really building this for a decade before you launched it?
- [14:32]
Diana Cohen
No, no, no. I was building other people's brands for a decade. Yeah. By the way, though, I think regardless of what route you go down, if something is authentic to you, right? And, like, why you started and that essence is still there, there's always a way back to that. Right. We've seen that with so many other founders as well, like that have gone through these journeys and sold and people have bought their companies back and it's like, if that thing that is that spark and your why is still there, like, you can always kind of get back to that. I think when people don't build from that place and it didn't start from a newsletter or authentic recommendations or whatever it is, it's hard to find it because it never really existed. And I think, like, you know, for me, I was really working on Crown Affair nights and weekends. I was consulting mostly for Harry's at the time. I had launched their women's line, Flamingo for them, doing the D2C launch and then the Target launch. And that was actually the first time I ever worked with, like, bigger retailers. And I kind of, like, looked under the hood and I'm like, oh, this is kind of a real business. Like, they had Walmart and Target and Costco white label, and it just kind of opened my world. But that being said, the landscape was changing a lot, too. This was like 2017, 2018, and the writing was very much on the wall with, like, influencers and just everything happening. And I've always been obsessed with hair. Like, I remember buying hair products on goop. Like, that was one of the main things I was buying because not to, like, really celebrate this, but I feel like there are so few places to buy clean products that actually work. And outside of you guys, and, like, I look gray. Like, those are really the only places that I was shopping for anything like this, you know, And. And it's funny, like, a lot of my friends who were super accomplished women had no idea what to do with their hair. And they would come to me being like, diana, how do I take care of my hair? What's going on? And hair's just always been my thing. Like, more than makeup, even more than skin. I don't know why, but I put together a Google Doc. You know, this is before, like, TikTok or I didn't have a newsletter, but I put together a doc and I sent it out to, like, six people. And within a week, hundreds of people were requesting to be in it. And it was like my Mason Pearson hairbrush. And, you know, if you don't know why to spend 250 on a hairbrush, it's like, why do you need this product? You know, you just don't know. Or a towel. Like, all the hair towels I had, which, you know, like, they kind of. The ones that I was using before were like, they always looked like car wash towels, but, like, the fifth wash or like, they kind of fell off my head or like, I don't know. There are just, like, so many things wrong with the products. And candidly. And, you know, this pain point, too, across all of beauty, it's like, clean does not need to be at the expense of, like, a beautiful experience. Right? And I felt like a lot of the products I was recommending were from these amazing Luxurious salon brands. But once I kind of looked under the hood of what was in them, I'm like, oh, this probably isn't great long term. And it's actually not like letting me understand my hair's potential. Like it requires a lot of styling. And I think that's what the industry was and has been. And I have so much admiration for professional stylists. They are incredible artists. But the truth is, is like most of my days I'm home like on zoom calls, run it, like I need to learn how to do my own hair and have products that work for me. So, you know, I got really lucky. My husband's best friend from elementary school is a bioengineer and chemistry and he had a lab, he had a lab on FDR on the east side of Manhattan. And we would literally go and bring like my Christophe Robin prickly pear mask and like my or all of my stuff and just reverse engineer it and be like, how do we make this sulfate free? How do we make this? So it was super nights and weekends and it wasn't until that I had like samples, product prototypes that I was like. And people were like, wait, this product's actually amazing. Like the mask, which I know you love. Like our first samples of the mask, my friends were tech. That's when you know you have something like for anyone out there listening, that's like, it's scary. I don't know when to launch a business. I'm working for someone else. If you can figure out how to get an mvp, get it in people's hands and they're like, wait, it's actually good. And they come to you. That's when you know that it's time to kind of take that chance on yourself.
- [18:44]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah, that's absolutely.
- [18:50]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days.
- [18:53]
Diana Cohen
A month each lasting four hours or more can make me feel like a small spectator in my own life.
- [18:57]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Botox Onobotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment.
- [19:08]
Botox Medication Information Voice
Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
- [19:45]
Diana Cohen
Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or, or call 1-844botox to learn more.
- [19:55]
Goop Podcast Host
So how were you thinking about, you know, cause clean means so many things and there's so many kind of clean washed and green washed brands. And your brand is one of the very few brands that is extremely high performance and also clean to the GOOP standards, which is, we have a very, very strict portal, you know, people have to pass through. So I'm just curious, like, how do you, how did you think about what ingredients were going to be left outside of the formulations? What was clean to you? Like, what does it mean to you?
- [20:26]
Diana Cohen
Yeah, and it's so funny. One of the reasons I've always looked to GOOP and I, I authentically mean this as a customer first is because I know that it's not at the expense of performance. Like, you're not just going to use things if they're clean, right? I think especially with hair, like, if you try something clean and it does not work, you're like, I'm going back to the thing that work.
- [20:45]
Goop Podcast Host
And believe me, like, over the course of doing this at GOOP and guinea pigging a million products, like, I couldn't believe some of the shit I put in my hair. I was like, you know, clay, like, not rinsing. I was like, what is this? This is like not a conditioner.
- [21:01]
Diana Cohen
Totally. You get like a little more leeway with like a mascara. You know, it's like if your hair is not looking good, you're like, I'm out. So no, it, honestly, it was a trip to Japan that I took in 2019 that kind of changed my life. I went to a head spa there and they, it was, I dream about it all the time. They used to boki seed oil and it was the first time that I had an oil in my hair that didn't weigh my hair down because I have a good amount of hair, but it's fine. And that kind of opened a rabbit hole of like, what are they using in Japan? What are the ingredients here? Even with something like our dry shampoo, we use a ground Japanese persimmon powder. Like the story of the dry shampoo. I can go on About I used to use, like, the Laura Mercier translucent powder for my hair. And I was like, how come I'm still using aerosol? You know, it's like, so many things like that. To me, it's never at the expense of performance, but it's really important that, you know, sulfates aren't great. Right? Like, they put sulfates in our shampoos in, like, the 70s and 80s to create that, like, you know, 90s shampoo commercial lather. But it's just like, it really does strip at your hair over time, you know? And I think for me, it's like, it's actually more about what's in it than what is not in it. But I'm so lucky to work with. I mean, you know, the product development process. Like, we work with chemists outside of our contract manufacturers, so we're able to really formulate products where there's a level of innovation. Otherwise, if you go to a contract manufacturer, you might not always be getting, like, the thing that you're kind of getting, stuff that's off the shelf with different marketing levels of stuff. But, like, we really go deep and have a whole group of chemists that were like, let's reimagine dry shampoo. Let's reimagine hair gel. Like, things that are mousse. Like, mousse is terrible. It's like crunchy flake, all of this stuff. So, you know, it's really hard. But I will never make something that isn't actually good, because I know, myself included, would rather go to the thing that actually works.
- [22:56]
Goop Podcast Host
Yep, absolutely. I scratched the thing framework 100. So you've done something really interesting, which is you've been able to kind of imbue these products with a luxury feeling. Like, these are. These are products that, you know, feel special. They feel. I mean, I don't know if that's. I design, but, you know, they smell so good, and the packaging is so beautiful. And so it's like this very beautiful luxury experience, but it also. It feels like a little bit of a wellness ritual kind of how you've done it all. So was that super intentional? Did you. How did you think about imbuing that feeling into a physical product?
- [23:51]
Diana Cohen
Yeah. Thank you. First of all, like, the highest compliment, because that's actually the core mission. The whole thing is like, I obviously would love for people to use Crown Affair, but I know people might use what's in the shower, what they've known forever. The truth is, the goal is to change the way that people are even thinking about taking care of their hair. And the way to do that is to make it something that you're excited about.
- [24:14]
Goop Podcast Host
Right.
- [24:15]
Diana Cohen
I think so much of the industry has been about fixing, taming, managing, like, this really aggressive language. And to me, it's like, I don't know if you have something new. Even if you get, like, a new workout outfit, you're, like, kind of excited to go to the workout. And it's like when you see this thing in your shower, when you see the comb over there, when you see the clips, when you see the dry shampoo, you're like, oh, this is actually something I'm excited to do. And it actually makes you take care of your hair in a daily way. And that's the goal is like, the daily things that add up. And you know this, whether it's meditation or journaling or brushing your hair at night, it's like the rituals that you have are only like, the habits that you have are only as good as the ones that you do. So, like, how do you make it something beautiful to remind yourself, like, oh, I'm gonna do this tonight, and set yourself up for success?
- [25:05]
Goop Podcast Host
So nice. So nice. So I want to go back to something you touched on before, which is you talked about building with feminine energy, and I think we're very, very alike in this way, like, to sort of lead out of a. A more female archetypal role than male. And so can you tell me a little bit about your leading philosophy and the sort of care over competition? You know, when I think about myself and how I, like, I definitely lead out of a very, like, archetypal feminine mold. Right. It's like a lot of creativity and collaboration and communication. All the C's. Yeah. And then. And sometimes in my past, too much. So. But that's. That's a podcast for another day.
- [26:03]
Diana Cohen
Yeah.
- [26:03]
Goop Podcast Host
But we. I would love to hear about how you crafted this leadership. What did you learn about how you wanted to kind of carve this unique path for yourself as a leader?
- [26:17]
Diana Cohen
Yeah. First of all, as I said earlier, like, so much of what I learned in the first decade of my career was a lot of what not to do. And I just don't think there was conversation around this before of, like, you know, so much of growing quickly is unfortunately about creating an environment of fear. And I know this from experience and having been a team member, an employee that, like, it gets the work done, but it doesn't actually create a sustainable environment of people who. And, you know, when something is done out of, like, anything in your Life, when you do something out of fear, like, you have to do it versus, like, from a place of play and joy and creativity. And so much of what I'm trying to prove out with Crown Affair. Beyond, like, the business itself is like, can you create a successful business and also, like, take care of people and, like, put people first and put yourself first. And honestly, it's a gift. But I have been doing. I mean, so much therapy, so much coaching. I have an amazing coach who I recently did brain spotting, EMDR therapy with. She. She coaches me and my CEO, Elaine. We've been with her for two years. And it's really just. I mean, in a weird way to say this, I think the pandemic has been. There's been a lot of positive that has come out of this time in the sense of, like, A, putting people first, B, as a leader, like, when I show up with my team and I'm present with them in person because we're a hybrid culture, I am so locked in and present, and I'm really mindful of how I communicate. And I think especially early days when we were all home, I'm like. I remember being in the office with a founder, and it's like, positive, negative. You feel their energy. And I'm now able to compose myself and be at home and show up in a way that's extraordinarily graceful. And candidly, like, it took a really long time to authentically trust. I think it's really easy to be like, I trust you, but, like, you are what you do, not what you say you do. And I've been really fortunate to have the support that I've needed to not. I call it, like, no splashing. It's like, just let the thing live. And sometimes, as we all know, like, the silence is more powerful. And, like, if you let things kind of just live for a minute and. But it's. Oh, my gosh, so much work. And I think we're in such a competitive industry, too, especially with beauty. It's, like, really easy to look around and, like, especially as a founder, like, see what someone else is doing or what opportunity they got or whatever this is. But it's like, blinders up. I call it the triangle. It's me, our chemist that I mentioned, and then Elaine, and, like, the three of us just have totally different superpowers, and it's. It's really hard. It's not what I. It's not the cultures I grew up in. It's not the cultures any of us grew up in, which is that masculine energy. But yeah, I don't know, you gotta rest in order to keep going. Especially like if you're building something that's true to you and you want to do this for a long time. If you don't like Mondays now, I don't even think Mondays are a real day. Like I used to be so intense on Mondays and be like, I have so much to do. And I'm like, Diana, whatever you manage to do today is enough. And that's like a whole new rewiring, you know?
- [29:32]
Goop Podcast Host
Oh yeah.
- [29:32]
Diana Cohen
I don't know if you feel that way. How is that for you? I mean, you're doing so many things and running so many businesses.
- [29:40]
Goop Podcast Host
It's, it's particularly challenging right now only because I have this film coming out at the end of the year and it's the first time I've done that in a really long time. And there's, it's like kind of a full time job to release a film, you know, to support a film and its release. So, you know, I'm doing the best I can, but I think I've, you know, we've worked really hard this year at GOOP to kind of clean up these sort of legacy broken processes and to sort of really set ourselves up for growth. And you know, like we did a big Shopify migration and you know, just kind of like getting. Thank you. Yeah, getting.
- [30:25]
Diana Cohen
It's a big deal. For those out there listening, this is a major deal.
- [30:28]
Goop Podcast Host
I mean it was a total fucking nightmare. Our tech stack before was like, it was nuts. And it had been just like one thing built on top of another, you know, for 10 years. And so we decided to just rip the band aid off and go to Shopify, which has been incredible and you know, then therefore cleaning up netsuite and getting everything sort of in better nick. But I am really tired. Like it's, you know, it's a, it's so, so this is so I, I noticed that in this year you. And you just mentioned her. You did hire a CEO. So how did you decide to do that?
- [31:13]
Diana Cohen
First of all, I just want to say it's. I don't know anyone else that I could say is literally launching or like putting a film into the world and also thinking about E commerce back ends. I think the list is like, I don't think there's any, I don't know anyone else on that list. So let me know if there's someone else that's doing those things at the same time first and foremost. Which is why having A CEO that isn't you is really a beautiful thing because for the first time in my life, we announced her this year. She has, with some context, she's been with me for six years. She was my first hire. Her name is Elaine Choi. Prior to Crown affairs, she was working for Larry Ellison, building out his. Not at Oracle, but building out his concept sensei. She was running operations there, the hotels, all of Lanai. She is just an extraordinary left brain and we have grown together personally and professionally so much the last six years. And you know, there's the conversation of like the hired gun, you know, which probably is the conversation more in your universe, right? And the joke is like, Jan Atkin always says this. It's like you want to hire a Colin Walsh. So they just hired Glossier, just hired Colin, who's their new CEO. And there's like a Colin type, but for where we are as a business. And you know, we've grown so much over the last few years at Crown Affair. But it's like, it's actually really about investing in the people who are already on the ground with me and being like, can they reach that position? Can they grow into it? And Elaine has totally grown into it. And the truth is, is like, I'm not a CEO. Like, I'm a product person and a brand person and need to be out in the world. And I'm going to Sephora's, meeting customers, activating, like, I love building creative universes and I don't like living in spreadsheets. And like, I shouldn't be responsible for the P and L. And as a founder, it's really hard to let go of that title. And it's so funny, when I announced it publicly, I got a lot of, I got a lot, but a handful of DMs that were like, what are you doing? You're the person who's the visionary, blah, blah. But I'm like, if you really look at the KPIs and goals for a CEO, like, this should not be me, you know, and in a way it's like, it was scary. And if I'm being honest, it really required me to like, put my ego to the side. But I have to be honest with you, I'm so much happier now. And I'm still in all the things I always say, like, I'm the first 10% and the last 10%, like, nothing's going to go out that like, Right. It's like it starts with me and it ends with me, but like the other like 80%, like I was actually blocking it. And candidly, like, the business has exploded since I got out of the way. Like, I mean that in a kind way to myself. But, like, that's the truth. And I think especially to scale a brand and. Right. You're saying you guys are setting up all the structures right now. And I've seen, I mean, it's incredible. We'll have to offline about what you've been able to do. I think just the way that you've reimagined everything that you've had is so impressive. I love the new line. Like, the products are amazing. I was just using my under eye mask this morning. Like, it's, it's so good. And I know how much soul and heart and care goes into everything you do. And it, it goes so beyond you. I think as a founder, you know what you love. But the truth is, is like, this is what I always say. I want to make a sexy brand and Elaine wants to make a sexy business. And there comes a time where it's like, and both need to be true, you know, and like, she gets the brand thing. When she was interning in college, she interned at Chanel and Vogue and like, totally gets it. But she's also a spreadsheets person. And I'm like, as long as I have someone and you know, it's hard, but I mean, we can talk about this whenever. I think it's, you'll know when the time comes and who it is. But it's really requires so much work to let go of it. It's scary.
- [35:09]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah, I, I can, I can imagine. Can I ask you a, like, just to double click on the ego part of it? Because I, I, I, I understand that as well. Was that, how did you, what was the conversation you had with yourself around that?
- [35:26]
Diana Cohen
I think part of it, it's such a good question. So much of it for me was like, my goals were creating the world and creating the product philosophy and creating the vision and creating the essence of what this is. And my job now as a leader is I don't actually need to be in every meeting or every room. It's knowing that my team, who's in these rooms, wants to make me proud.
- [35:53]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [35:54]
Diana Cohen
And it's actually kind of better that I'm not there. So, like, how do I show up for my team where, like, when I'm not there, they're actually working to make me proud and build this world, you know? And that's the job, by the way. Right. Like, the landscape changes. It never goes away. I mean, you know, this. It's like being out in the world, connecting with people, and then there's really clear things. Like, Elaine knows that, like, product is super important to me. Brand campaigns are super important to me. But there are certain things where it's kind of like peeking through the finger, like, just do what you need to do. And I think the thing that Elaine and I always come back to, my husband and I always joke whenever we, like, are talking about something that we disagree, we're like, same team, same team. And I think that's where Elaine and I come back to. We're like, same team, same team. Like, we want. We want the same angle. And authentic trust is, like, releasing that power and realizing that, like, that needs its space too. You know, I don't know. It's been hard, but I've also found other creative outlets and things that I'm doing in ways that, like, the ego piece of what really brings me joy. Like, I'm finding other things, too, that. That bring me joy in a way that the business just got to a point where, like, I shouldn't be the one making those decisions, you know?
- [37:16]
Goop Podcast Host
Absolutely. Can I ask you about how you're approaching growth these days? Because you guys are, you know, experiencing amazing growth and what are the. What are the ways in which you're doing it? Because as you said before, it is a competitive landscape. I feel like there are new brands every minute and legacy brands, and I'm in the trenches with you, so I'm just wondering how. How.
- [37:42]
Gwyneth Paltrow
How what.
- [37:43]
Goop Podcast Host
What do you think are your. The main levers for this big growth that you're experiencing in the last year?
- [37:49]
Diana Cohen
I think the main. The only reason that Crown Affair is around is because the product is actually good. And through word of mouth, like, it's excellent. Thank you. It's. You're being too modest. Thank you. The only way, I think, to really grow right now is have excellent product. If you don't have a silver bullet, right? Like, Maybe there's a YouTuber out there with 20 million followers can always sell through product. But that's even if you have awareness, right? Like, it doesn't always guarantee moving product and growing the business. So, you know, excellent product is really key. Word of mouth is everything. Like it is. The girls at brunch being like, have you heard about this hair towel? It is, you know, the friend of a friend being like this. Actually, now I don't have to blow out my hair three times a week. You know, this dry shampoo. It's like that. It's it's the group text, it's that that has like kept the business growing. You know, retail is important. Like, if that's the strategy, I think for us right now it's like 50% of our business is D2C and 50% is retail. And acknowledging that those are different clients I think is one of the biggest learnings that honestly, I wish I knew sooner. With Crown Affair, I feel like your client and customer totally gets it. Like, she very much is the Crown Affair woman and understands the full holistic ritual and is like thinking about all these touch points. But I think when you go into larger scale retail, it's a very hero skew focused world.
- [39:13]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah. So like it's hard to tell a story on a, on a big shelf like that, Right?
- [39:20]
Diana Cohen
Impossible.
- [39:20]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It's.
- [39:21]
Diana Cohen
It's so hard. So you have to like go into that mindset of how they're discovering it. And you know, I think like there is no silver bullet, there is no hack. I feel like the best thing is just make. And I would know that's like such a bummer. But it's like, it's not like you can like grow this. I think ultimately too, if you have the ability as a founder to be external facing and make content, that is the quickest way to reach new audiences. Now is the truth. And you know, when I launched the brand, I had an Instagram that I posted like vacation photos. Like I wasn't like an influencer in any way and I still don't consider myself one for the record. But like, it's important to make the time and like, I love writing my substack and I remember meeting this incredible creative director the other day and she like has no idea what kind of hair is she. So chic, fabulous. And she's like, oh, I read your substack. You know, and it's like, wow, those little things add up over time in terms of top of funnel discovery. But it's so hard right now. Like I feel like everyone's feeling it that like.
- [40:26]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [40:26]
Diana Cohen
You know, but at the end of the day for me, I'm sure you feel this way too. I mean, how long have you been doing this now?
- [40:34]
Goop Podcast Host
Oh my gosh. Well, I said 2008 is when I sent my first newsletter.
- [40:42]
Diana Cohen
So the OG and early on the newsletter game.
- [40:46]
Goop Podcast Host
Early.
- [40:46]
Diana Cohen
Could you imagine? You know what I need you to do? I need you to do like an audio, like a voice download of all the learnings and like things because you were so early on all of this stuff.
- [40:58]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah, Very, very Early.
- [41:01]
Diana Cohen
It all comes full circle though, right? And what I was going to say is I think if you're building something timeless, it's like, that's the thing is like the people will arrive on it and I know who I'm making crown affair for. Like, I want to love it. I want you to love it. Like, there are very specific women I have in mind when I'm formulating products and with that, like how we move through the world. Like, what, what's our wash day cadence? Right? Like, am I going to do a workout this morning and do I need this, how do I need this package to feel like I'm thinking about us the entire time versus just like achieving a look in a moment, you know, which is so much of hair care. And I think because of that, we're not trying to be everything to everyone. Like, if you get a product that like you can pour a glass of water on and it's going to be, you know, the water won't go through, that's a different. I'm never going to make that, you know, like, I'm making something different. So I think that's the other key. And it takes like a little bit longer because you're not like obvious. But then once people stumble upon it, they're like, oh wait, it feels like this little, this like secret that feels special to you and like you found this thing. So, you know, just patience. It takes people a long time to change what they're using. And then once they try the sleeve in or try this repair serum, when they've been using the other thing for 10 years, it's like, you know, it's just. And then you're like, oh, I'm so happy you've joined us now, you know?
- [42:26]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah. Is it hard to get people to switch hair care, try new hair, the, the way it is with beauty or other things?
- [42:40]
Diana Cohen
I think hair is the slowest category. I think, like it's. I think hair is kind of a double edged sword. Like. Right. Makeup is just so much. It's just a massive category. You also have so much more competition, you know, Like, I wouldn't want to try to wake up every day trying to sell. It's just hard, you know?
- [42:56]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah, very hard.
- [42:58]
Diana Cohen
But hair, because it's really a salon driven category, you know, and even at a space like Sephora, like they've made brands, right? Like there was the decade and era of like the Tatchas and drunk elephants and then I called it like the first generation of brands. And then the second generation is like, the first fruit forward generation, which is like, eat to the people, glow recipe, even Briogeo. And then it's like this third generation, but. And in makeup, they've made brands, right? And like celebrity brands. But, like, the hair business is a lot of the iconic l' Oreal brands. You know, it's Kerastase, it's, you know, Moroccan oil. It's these brands that have been around for a really long time. And I think people walk in and they're like, oh, this has worked for me. But, you know, part of why I started this whole company is I'm like, why do I have so many options in skin and color? Like, there's so many amazing new clean brands. And I just felt like, like, hair was really just salon options, and it's really formulated differently and we're spoken to differently. And part of it's just like a waiting game for people to be like, let me try this new thing. It's less fun. That's why I'm trying to make it fun. I think people are like, oh, I love a new lip, I love a new blush. Let me try this new thing. But, like, hair, you're kind of like, let me finish what's in the shower? And I have so many friends, I'm sure. Like, I mean, there are just people with amazing skin and makeup routines, but, like, hair is kind of the afterthought. So, yeah, the blessing of that is, like, there's technically less competition, but it is a much slower build. So the way that we've built and grown the company is, like, really understanding for me that consumer psychology. Right. And that's why the original Google Doc was such an aha moment, because, like, these are the most accomplished women I've ever met. Like, you know, founders. But I'm like, that they haven't. They're relying on, like, going to a blowout bar every Monday, you know, and then they're layering these, like, intense aerosols. I mean, would you ever spray an aerosol hairspray on your face four days in a row and not wash it? Like, why are we doing that to our scalp? You know, it's crazy. So I don't know. I'm in it for the long run. I look at founders like Carissa from Hourglass or Vicky from Tatcha, and they're so the essence of their brands and what they've built, and I think they're super clear on where they sit in the market. And it's not just about, like, tracing chasing trends. It's like about building products that they want to use and love, you know?
- [45:14]
Goop Podcast Host
Absolutely. I mean, I. I completely agree. I think, you know, like, when product is coming from a very true place, I. I think ultimately there's. And of course, you need marketing budgets and the like, but, you know, nothing is going to replace that. Nothing is going to replace that resonance that people have or how they feel when they. When they use your. When they use your brand.
- [45:38]
Diana Cohen
Yeah, I think the trust thing is huge, too. Like, I know that when you put something into the market, I'm like, there's. There's a bar here, you know, And I think we've entered a world with how quick everything goes, where it's like, is the product actually there? Like, there's nothing worse than ordering something and you try it and you're like, this isn't actually that good, you know, in this. In this world. So I think.
- [45:58]
Goop Podcast Host
And so much is disappointing, you know, it is.
- [46:01]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It's like, yeah, yeah, totally.
- [46:04]
Goop Podcast Host
I want to talk to you a little bit about something that I read that you said, which is fascinating to me. That you're hair shows how your nervous system is doing. So no wonder my hair is so up, Diana.
- [46:20]
Diana Cohen
I mean, you have a lot going on, and it is not up. You have beautiful hair. We don't talk to our hair that way. Okay.
- [46:26]
Goop Podcast Host
Okay. Thank you. Sorry. Thank you. Hair. Can you tell me a little bit about, like, the. The internal wellness piece of the hair care? Like, what is. Is this, like a micronutrient thing and a stress thing and a. And a hormone thing?
- [46:46]
Diana Cohen
Yes. So the first time I re. I've always loved taking care of my hair since I was young, but the first time I was like, oh, gosh, I really need to take care of my hair is when I was at a job that was very stressful, and I literally. My hair started falling out. And I joke that, like, I could tell because your hair grows, you know, a couple inches a year. I joke that, like, I could tell what part of my hair was when I worked at this company because it was just, like, destroyed. And part of that, right, for that. That's cortisol, you know, like testing for cortisol and getting your blood work done, and you can see when you're stressed. And I also think just diet is so important. Like, protein is a huge topic now, but it's like, the protein matters. I remember when I was doing like, a more like, purely, you know, Mediterranean forward diet, and my hair was so shiny and so healthy, and obviously everyone's body is different you know, genetics is a huge piece of this. But the truth is, is, like, my hair has actually gotten better as I've aged because I'm doing these things to take care of it. There's strand care, there's scalp care, and then there's the internal piece. And like, sleeping is very important. I mean, think about. I feel like with skin, we're very aware that if you do something and then something happens, right? Whether it's like you consume dairy and then you have a breakout and there's like a correlation, or you get a breakout on this part of your skin or your chin and you're like, my period's coming in two days. Right. Like, I'm in my luteal. But like, like, you know these things and you're really trained with your skin. But we're not. It's not as demystified, I think, with hair. And so often people go for, like, topical things or like a supplement. But I'm a huge advocate for, like, doing blood work and kind of taking stock of what's going on in your life. And yeah, I mean, with all of everything, I feel like regulating your nervous system is. Is the key to being at peace with yourself. So it definitely has an impact on your hair health as well.
- [48:41]
Goop Podcast Host
Would you tell me a little bit about your health and wellness rituals? I'm always so curious as, you know, somebody like you is a leader in the space. Like, tell me, take me through your philosophy.
- [48:55]
Diana Cohen
Well, I feel like I've learned so much from you throughout the years and just like, you know, truly, like being a woman and being connected to. To yourself. And I think that's a huge part of connecting with your femininity and feminine leadership is like, that softness in yourself is so important. And you were really the one to pave the way for that conversation. And I, from the bottom of my heart, don't think anyone else could have done that with what you did around sexuality and sensuality. Like, no, truly, there's. There's no one else. Right? In the same way that no one else can release a massive movie and also be in the back end of a Shopify E Commerce site. It is a one of one situation. GP No, I think. I think that's really huge. And I'm a big morning person. I'm actually not a morning person. Like, I don't wake up super early. I'm a night owl. That is when my creativity just flows. And I think leaning into that is important, like knowing when that is sparked. But I wake up at like 7:30 I'm not like a 5:30am person and I journal almost every single day. I do my artist way morning pages and that is my religious text. I do it like every year and a half and it's new every time for me and that's a huge thing. I love stretching every day do. I do a lot of therapy and coaching and have a lot of support in my life. And I truly like rest when I need to rest. And I move my body almost every day in some way. I'm not like a huge intense workout person, but like Pilates, walking, like in balance, I think. You know, candidly, I've been with my partner for 12 years. We met after I graduated college and he's been probably the best thing for my nervous system because he's just like a lovely, kind soul that from day one, even before I was an entrepreneur, like, holds me still and it's just like, let's do nothing. And that's really hard for me. So I'm grateful for that too.
- [50:56]
Goop Podcast Host
That's so beautiful. That's so nice. And. And you. And you guys have. Don't have kids.
- [51:03]
Diana Cohen
We don't have kids. It's on. It's on the roadmap.
- [51:06]
Goop Podcast Host
It's on the road. Okay.
- [51:08]
Diana Cohen
It's on the roadmap and I really want it. And I'm so grateful for the women in my life, my sister included, all my friends. I mean, you like, that's an interesting conversation that I think people are having now is like, how do you build a company? Right? I'm able to say yes to everything right now, right?
- [51:23]
Goop Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [51:24]
Diana Cohen
Or it needs me in Vegas tomor tomorrow for a thing. Or I can work really late. Like, I actually really acknowledge whenever I share something on substack or TikTok and I'm like, this is my hour and a half morning routine. Journaling. I'm like, I do not have humans at this stage of life and I'm not trying to like get them to school. So like, I'm very self aware that this is the season and hopefully I can like inspire people whether they're younger in their career or like, you know, I have so many friends who are moms that are like, like, okay, I'm putting 30 minutes on the calendar to just like collage. And there doesn't need to be because I'm such a big advocate. I know this sounds crazy, but I feel like writing and collage are like a great way to like engage with art and your creative brain and like a really low stakes way. And I tell My friends, I'm like, literally 30 minutes on your phone. Just, like, put a client timer on, grab a couple magazines. Like, use your hands. Like, it doesn't. You don't need to do anything with it. Like, it doesn't. But, like, that matters, and I think it's really important. So that. That really keeps me sane too. I don't know if you. What your creative practices are. You're secretly painting on the side as well?
- [52:30]
Goop Podcast Host
No, definitely not. I'm more of like a. Like a gardener cook. That's kind of where my. My. That's where I get my hands dirtiest. And I mean, gardener is like, a little bit of a stretch, but I'm in my garden a lot.
- [52:45]
Diana Cohen
That's the dream. I think that's my next season is like. I feel like gardening is the metaphor for everything in life is what I've heard.
- [52:53]
Goop Podcast Host
Nothing makes me feel better than being in my vegetable garden. I don't know what that's about, but it's really. I just feel like, oh, life is so simple, and I'm really over complicating everything. Like, here's a carrot that God made in this thing. And, like, what, you know, what am I so stressed about?
- [53:15]
Diana Cohen
Yes, it's. I was catching up with Richard from Flamingo State the other day, and he's like, that is the only place that I feel whole in the essence of where he started his business and his purpose. And I think these practices, whatever it is, you know, cooking, gardening, drawing, singing, learning an instrument, it's like they kind of bring you back to your. Why in a way, I don't know. I think it's so, so important, and it's hard to, like, especially as a woman, I think we don't always carve that time out for ourselves. Or it's like that mindset rewiring of, like, this is as important as the, quote, work.
- [53:53]
Goop Podcast Host
You know, I could not agree with you more. And on that note, thank you so much for coming on the Goop pod. You are just amazing.
- [54:06]
Diana Cohen
Thank you for having me. This was so meaningful. I truly appreciate all the work that you do and, you know, the incredible space that you hold for all of us as founders. I mean, Goop has been such an incredible partner. Like, truly, from the bottom of my heart, Goop has been the best partner over the last six years. And your whole. No, truly, you, your whole team, like, you guys are excellent, and it's such a privilege to work with you. So thank you for having me on today.
- [54:32]
Goop Podcast Host
Oh, Diana, thank you so much. You're the best.
- [54:39]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts.