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- [00:00]
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- [00:07]
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- [00:55]
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- [01:03]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Bumble, the sponsor of today's episode is the Go to Dating app for finding intentional love. Something we often explore here is how transformation comes after change. The work, the healing, the lessons that help you feel ready for connection. For many people, that's the step before dating, the work before the leap. And when you are ready, Bumble can be that safe space to take that leap at your own pace. What I love is how intentional the app is. Everyone who joins goes through photo and phone number verification so you know you're talking to someone real. And with ID verification, you can be sure their age as well as their photos are real too. Plus, Bumble has a dating advice hub built right into the app, like having a dating expert in your pocket to support you at every stage of the journey so you can feel confident as you put yourself back out there at the heart of it. It's about saying yes to the unknown. Even love after separation isn't the end of the story. It's the chance to begin again with more clarity, more intention, and more confidence in what you want. That's what Bumble makes possible. Bumble gives you the tools to make that chapter your own, and maybe it reminds us that love is always worth choosing again. Start your love story again on Bumble.
- [02:35]
Emily Hickey
When you are pioneering anything or introducing.
- [02:38]
Gwyneth Paltrow
New ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do?
- [02:41]
Yeah.
- [02:42]
Did you hear about that?
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Guest or Participant
I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected, and we made it the one.
- [02:48]
Gwyneth Paltrow
In the sort of longing kind of.
- [02:50]
Emily Hickey
View of love, People understand each other.
- [02:52]
Gwyneth Paltrow
As if by magic.
- [02:54]
Guest or Participant
Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled.
- [03:01]
Emily Hickey
I now know that nobody changes until.
- [03:05]
Gwyneth Paltrow
They change their energy.
- [03:06]
Emily Hickey
And when you change your energy, you change your life.
- [03:10]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I'm Gwyneth Paltrow.
- [03:11]
This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has.
- [03:27]
The power to change the way we see the world. Here we go.
- [03:33]
Welcome to the GOOP Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow, and today I'm sitting down with someone who has helped me.
- [03:39]
Reconnect with, deeply, with my own sense of purpose. A growth strategist, a very trusted advisor.
- [03:46]
And an invaluable collaborator in my life.
- [03:50]
We talk about the why behind our.
- [03:52]
Work and our lives, the glass ceilings.
- [03:54]
We quietly build for ourselves, and the.
- [03:57]
Courage it takes to step fully into the arena. Thoughtful, expansive, and always inspiring. Emily Hickey.
- [04:09]
So we're back together. Emily Hickey. So I don't know that we ever have. We said. It's hard to define, but, like, you are helping me so much in my, like, my journey as a CEO. Like, there's coaching, there's marketing stuff. Like, it's, it's. How do we define what, what our relationship is?
- [04:31]
Emily Hickey
What. What is our. I don't know. I know we have. It doesn't have a name.
- [04:35]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It doesn't have a name, but you are a coach and an inspiration, a teacher, a friend, an honest voice. Like, you bring things back to center. So, you know, you're a very important collaborator in my life. And the last time we spoke, we were sort of focused on the brand. Why? Right. Like, I think we have a lot of entrepreneur listeners and a lot of women who are in business and not necessarily in their own business, but are working at businesses where they also have to understand the brand why. Of. Of why they're there. And then I think we started to talk of, like, the extrapolation of that out to, you know, us in our lives and our, our. And. And also, you know, it's like you, you reference somebody in your life. I don't want to necessarily call her out, but who, you know, made choices not to be A professional woman and still very much in her nucleus is like, what is the why? And so I think we started to talk about the why not only as it pertains to brand, but as it pertains to us in our lives, like a personal why. And how that, of course, can dovetail into a brand why, if you're working on a brand. And so. And you. You've been reading a lot about. Well, why don't you. Why don't you talk a little bit about your. Your line of thinking on this and what you've been reading lately.
- [06:09]
Emily Hickey
Deep diving on.
- [06:10]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Lately, Deep diving on.
- [06:13]
Emily Hickey
So I think, you know, my point of view for people like us, you know, is that work and life is all one thing, you know, that it. And that's why what you and I do together is hard to define because it goes across both. And what you're trying to accomplish in your. In the context of your business is in a lot of ways, trying to accomplish yourself. You know, and obviously that. That's a core theme of GOOP as a brand. It's a core theme of both of our lives and most people's lives. You know, that we are Americans and we're workaholics, and a lot of the crucible for where we, you know, find and become ourselves is at work. You know, it's where we do. That's sort of where the wrestling matches.
- [06:52]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah.
- [06:53]
Emily Hickey
So my feeling, you know, I'm a Jungian, is that the deep dive. You were. There are many deep dives.
- [06:58]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Well, there are many deep dives. I was talking, you know, who's the president that even Ros.
- [07:04]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [07:04]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Teddy Roosevelt.
- [07:04]
Emily Hickey
You're Teddy Roosevelt?
- [07:06]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah. Why are you obsessed with Teddy Roosevelt right now?
- [07:08]
Emily Hickey
Because he had a moral center. Because he, you know, he. The first page of his autobiography talks about how, you know, his whole thing was the arena. He coined that phrase. Right. And this concept of a strenuous life and that it's a life of effort and energy and intention and where you have a North Star and a point of view and where in the midst of everything coming at you, you are trying to do the right thing. And, you know, and he always had kind of a foot in his family. You know, he was a picture of wholeness. The people I really admire are whole, you know, or they. They've done something in their life to achieve wholeness. You know, you. You do that. You.
- [07:44]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You.
- [07:44]
Emily Hickey
You're a good example of that. And I think that's what your brand is about. You know, we've. We've talked about that a lot. But I think that that is the journey of life. That is what the Jungian journey would be. It's why I love everything he says. I just think he got it so right, you know, that his fundamental premise about life is that your job is to externally manifest who you are.
- [08:05]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know, and that was at the core of his why. So, meaning, it's like it's sui generis. Everybody has their own. We're as unique as our DNA. Right. So our whys are as unique as we are. And if so, with Teddy Roosevelt. Would you say that Teddy Roosevelt's why was to pursue the uniqueness of his own person?
- [08:28]
Emily Hickey
I think he had a why of service. He's a little bit. I'm not quite that way, you know, like, he was obsessed with Abe Lincoln, actually. He wore his hair in a ring on his finger at his second inauguration because he saw him as somebody who was unspoiled by prosperity and who drove for purpose. He really was a president with purpose and a moral center. Right. And I think that that's what Roosevelt was trying to do. I think he believed that every person's life mattered, which is the premise of the United States and the Declaration of Independence, is the value of an individual life. And he really fought for that. So I think he just. He was like a service guy. You know, I don't think of myself that way. I'm not a politician. I have zero interest in that at all. But he had a purpose in his life, and it was very balanced. You know, nature was a big part of it, and his family and his duty to the country. But I think. I think basically, I believe in purpose. I believe in a soul. I think everybody has a soul. It's not that I have a specific idea of religion, but I do think everybody has a soul. And I think that's what screams at you when you're off track, you know, Like, I think that we're all born with a set of instincts and a concept of who we can be and what we should be doing. And I. It is the Jungian thing of, like, the soul or the unconscious can't talk, but it knows. Whereas your ego side of your life can talk, but it doesn't know. And so there's always this interplay of this thing inside you trying to steer you in the right direction. And it can do that through instinct and through dreams and depression and anxiety and all of the other sort of psychotic manifestations of not being aligned with what you're supposed to be doing in your life.
- [10:15]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You get spoken to.
- [10:16]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [10:16]
Gwyneth Paltrow
When you're right out of it, which.
- [10:18]
Emily Hickey
Makes sense to me.
- [10:19]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So he talked about the arena. That was like, to be the man in the arena, to be the man who makes the choice to do something publicly, to. To. To move the world publicly. Right? And I think for him, being of service was public service, and not only to serve the public, but to be in the public. Like, that. That's a factor of service, right? And what comes along with being a man in the arena and how he talks about, you know, it's the man in the arena that is sort of gets the jeers and the claps and, like, is subject to the opinions of the people who are choosing to sit on the sidelines, right? And that there's, like, this inherent bravery and almost foolhardy, right? Like, bravery. And to go into the arena and. And to plant a flag and say, I'm gonna do this because I believe in my purpose. I believe that I have a purpose, and I believe that I can move the world forward in some way. And I'm foolhardy enough to believe that. And I'm. Can withstand, you know, the jeers and the claps and. And all the things. So, like, is. Do you feel like, to. To have that like, that. Because in a way, it's like, to be so wedded to your purpose, like, that's what gives me bravery, you know what I mean? In those situations where I can keep being a man in the arena, as ridiculous as it is, and however foolhardy it is, and, like, whatever gauntlet I go through, but I'm so wedded to my purpose. Like, it's so in my cells that I just. There's no choice for me, right, but to live in the arena. And, like, that's my purpose. What.
- [12:05]
Emily Hickey
What. So how would you describe that? What do you. What is your purpose?
- [12:09]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I've been thinking a lot about this, you know, in anticipation of this conversation, and I find it so hard to articulate because it's like. Like, I could tell you a million things about what my purpose is. Like, there's, you know, and. But it's. It's. It's more of a feeling. It's so abstract. Like, it's so difficult to articulate. But it has something to do with, like, this drive to pursue my full self and, like, with this abject belief that if I do that, then the people who I'm around, like, might witness that and feel that ability to, like. You know, it's sort of what you're saying about Teddy Roosevelt, like, this, like, I just want everyone to sort of be able to join hands and feel what's possible within them. Like, however weird and specific and unusual that might be. And it doesn't have to look like how it looks for me or you. Right. Like that we all have this incredible gift that does come from our soul and that, you know, we. It's. It's almost like a waste if we are sublimating and we're not on. It's like a waste of your life. So it's like I have this drive, like, don't waste your life.
- [13:40]
Emily Hickey
You know, I think you do have that. No, I agree. I think that's it. I think that that urge is to create yourself and to become whole. And it takes self awareness and struggle. You know, that's where so much of the meaning comes from, a struggle and playing all your good cards and your bad cards. And I think everybody, you know, people ask me that a lot, you know, in the course of just building friendships at work or, you know, like people who feel like they don't have their careers figured out or, you know, and I like that. I think is the toughest thing is when they don't have the game board for executing that struggle within. I think yours is so clear. And I think everybody has a feeling. Like, I guess I don't think that there's one distinct purpose. I think there are a few. And with you, that one is very clear, is that I think you play. You have a drive to play a leadership role in the world where there's something about you that gets more gratification from growing yourself in a way that it brings other people along. And there's a group piece of that, which is so cool that you've used your own pushing to find yourself as like a public act to bring other people along with you, which is so cool. But there, I mean, I think, you know, we've talked about the concept of home. Like, I think you have a big theme in your life of creating your concept of home with all of everything settled and in place and ordered and hearth and cooking and creativity and kids. And I think there's always. People always have a journey path. Like their core narrative, I think has lost you with how they grew up.
- [15:26]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Have you. Do you think about your why like this?
- [15:31]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [15:31]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And what is yours?
- [15:33]
Emily Hickey
I mean, I think. I think I have a few. I think so I would say the main hero's journey. I think everyone needs to have some clarity around what they're coming from and what they're going towards. You Know, and there's a narrative and I think a lot of that for me has to do with changing my concept of family. You know, that we had circumstances growing up that I really am determined to correct in my own family. And that pretty much is what I'm after, you know.
- [16:07]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Interesting. So yours is more of a, like it's a reflection back.
- [16:14]
Emily Hickey
Well, I think it's just my picture of what I wanted in my life was a reaction to what I was coming from. And I think also like it's self growth driven the way yours is 100%. But like, so I have, you know, sides of my personality that have just been really determined to breakthrough and not like shyness. I was a paralyzingly shy child. And I think if you are shy, that's a lifelong battle. It just is. And also, you know, confidence and I think fear, you know, things that you don't have. But like for me those were things that.
- [16:59]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Who doesn't have? You. I. What?
- [17:01]
Emily Hickey
I don't think, I think you're so brave. Do you think you have fear?
- [17:08]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Well, that's a good question. I mean I have anxiety.
- [17:11]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [17:13]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But I actually don't. Maybe I don't have a lot of fear. I mean sometimes like I'll have, I do have fear around speaking in front of groups, but I'm not driven by fear. Yeah, I'm. I sometimes I get anxious.
- [17:30]
Emily Hickey
Yeah. Yeah.
- [17:31]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But I think in the more that I, the, the more that I, you know, when I've tried a lot of things in my life and the more that I am vulnerable, vulnerable about the things that I'm learning, then the more confident I can be. Right. So I think that's, that's been an important part of like finding confidence. Yeah. Is that. But I feel like you're super confident and when you, I don't know, when you talk about leading your team and. Yeah, that kind of thing. And you, you know, you. Is that, is, is that how all your preparation comes in hand? Like you, you seem so well prepared. Is that to bolster or find confidence?
- [18:12]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, I mean you've, you know that I over prepare and I think everything. Yeah, I mean that is core weapon for me is being so prepared. But no, I mean I'm confident in business, I'm confident. But it, but it is, but we're also meeting each other in our 50s, you know what I mean? Like it, it is. It took me a long time to find my footing in terms of like self esteem and I had a huge fear of failure. That was probably one of the biggest things holding me back and doing things I shouldn't have been doing. Like in my 30s, when I look at how I was spending my time, it just wasn't, it was like so off. And I like when I turned 40, I changed pretty much everything. And I mean I really did. And that like really put me on my track. That's why I think this is so important. I think if you don't understand, if one doesn't understand like their own, you know, some sense of meaning and purpose and what they're good at and what their shadow self is and the stuff that they need to work on. And if they don't understand that with a lot of self awareness, I think they're really disadvantaged and figuring out getting the pieces in place that are really going to make them successful and happy. And so when you see people struggling and defining their career, I think a lot of times they don't have a lot of self awareness. Like I don't think they know what they're good at, you know, and I don't think they know what they're bad at.
- [19:36]
Botox Advertisement Voice
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- [19:43]
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- [19:52]
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- [20:31]
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- [20:40]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Traveling is something that brings me so much joy.
- [20:43]
Whether it's for work or leisure, I.
- [20:45]
Find myself craving the ability to explore new places while simultaneously feeling a sense of comfort and familiarity.
- [20:53]
That is why I love to find.
- [20:55]
A home to stay in On Airbnb while I'm away.
- [20:58]
It's a perfect way to make a.
- [21:00]
Work trip feel more like a getaway than business.
- [21:03]
I love how personal it feels.
- [21:05]
These aren't just places to.
- [21:06]
To sleep.
- [21:06]
They give you that unique home away from home feeling with little details and character. It makes being away grounding and makes it easier to keep my usual routines. Almost like I've slipped into another version of everyday life. But have you ever thought about how someone else might enjoy those little details and character you put into your home while you're away? Finding the familiar in the unknown? Someone else could be doing the same. If you host your own space on Airbnb, rather than letting it sit empty, let your space work for you. When you indulge in the joy that traveling brings, you can also bring that joy to someone else.
- [21:46]
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- [21:49]
Find out how much@airbnb.com host.
- [21:59]
So is there an exercise that you suggest, like, how could somebody currently, like, who's currently sort of rudderless around this topic? Like, how could they. Do you sit down and kind of make a list and, like, make a pact with yourself that you're going to be incredibly honest and. And sort of take inventory of what you can do?
- [22:21]
Emily Hickey
And I. I think you have to have some kind of structure for doing that. I mean, I. I think I did a combination. I'm not like a therapy person, so I didn't talk to anybody. Like, I don't. It just never, you know, what I did. I think that the power of the visual imagination is unparalleled. I really do. It's how we've talked about this, how Einstein solved, like, the theory of relativity as he pictured it, you know, And I think if you can't picture your life in a really complete way, that would make you happy. And I think a lot of people can't picture that actually, or they've never tried.
- [22:56]
Gwyneth Paltrow
What is the way to do that, I wonder?
- [22:59]
Emily Hickey
Like, well, I think you can. Like, I randomly. When I was, like, in the throes of existential Crisis in my 30s, I randomly bought this book about visualization. I thought it was a meditation book, and it was a manifestation. So that, as a total side note, made me, like, one of the things I was envisioning. It was like, it was great. It was like, do this exercise where you picture where you. You think of something in your past when you were really happy, you know? And I kept picturing I had, like, after my first dot com, I had bought a house in Tahoe and I like, was doing my music and trying to get that out of my system.
- [23:37]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I love it.
- [23:38]
Emily Hickey
And I like, it was a very important part, you know, time of my life. But I used to hike. I used to go on this hike behind the house and had this little pond. It was like this alpine little pond. And I would constantly, I was constantly hiking up there. It was what I would do every single morning. And so. And it was a very, it was a great time actually of life. And so I would lie when I was living in New York City and super stressed out and had babies and was like in a disastrous place in my career. Like the whole like F minus. I mean, a horrible, horrible time of life. So I would lie on my lie on the floor of this apartment in the East Village and I would picture just walking up to that little pond and then five years later, without any deliberate decision making at all, ended up living in Telluride with a pond in our backyard. I mean, it's just. Life is funny, you know, I would. And then I would do this exercise where I would sort of change the channel and picture myself as like Hillary Clinton with like a haircut and a suit, you know what I mean? Like, I would just channel change of like, who do I want to be here? You know what I mean is that because from the way I was programmed from my mom, that actually probably would have been something that it looked like, you know what I mean? But that's like my idea of misery, you know, I'm just a more creative person than that and I need more independence. And I don't like to be. I don't like anything corporate. I don't like to be boxed in. And it just sort of, that kind of exercise led me to sort of this. I'm just going to be the talent because I need to be so good at what, at what I do that I can just be who I am. I can be this kind of soft, sensitive Midwestern sucker walking through the world. Like I'm just going to be so good at what I do that I don't get eaten alive by alpha personalities in boardrooms or whatever it is. And like, do you have a lot of that? Yeah, I was having my 30s, like I would say, just getting really beat up by alpha investors and as like sort of the second in charge, a CEO or CMO type of companies as a sort of almost professional co founder. So I would go into company after company and like help them scale it and figure it out and do whatever the founder couldn't do. And so it just was not anybody who's done that type of role on a serial basis knows how brutal that that existence is. So I mean, so I just had this kind of defiant, you know, defiance of the soul moment of like, I'm not going to work for anyone anymore. That is over. I'm never ever doing that again. And I don't like I'm just going to do what I'm good at, which is the growth part of all of this. I don't want to do all this other crap. And I'm not getting dressed up, I'm not going to run around in skinny jeans and out of style anyway.
- [26:17]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So you left at the right time. Yeah.
- [26:22]
Emily Hickey
I know. Thank God. No, I just had like this.
- [26:24]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And that gave you the courage to start your own?
- [26:26]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, I mean I was just sort of at rock bottom. I was just like, you know, so I built back up. I did this very, you know, irrational. I think trying to solve with purely with your rational side of your mind is not going to work. I think that you have to let instinct bubble up and guide you and you have to listen to that, you know. And so my way of doing that was this meditation of like picturing myself, you know what I mean? And then I kind of right or left brained it in terms of okay, what am I going to do? And I think like I just got to work, you know what I mean? I just kind of created a rule set and I was like, I'm not going to. I think it's a big gotcha to, to pay attention to the scoreboard. I think the score takes care of itself. I think you just do get, you know, do something diligently in a way that is honest. Like you always talk being in your own integrity. If you're focused, if your flashlight's on the page, pretty close. I think it's like a data science thing. It's a proven thing. The number of steps ahead that somebody can see the worst decisions they make. They put people trying to get through a maze or whatever. You got to shine the flashlight close to the page and just do. In your circumference of your life, just do what you like doing and what you're good at, you know, And I think the pieces kind of fall into place from there. So that's kind of what I did.
- [27:44]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And how do you hold that? And like the vision board, the sort of manifestation, the big picture. I'm going here.
- [27:53]
Emily Hickey
Well, for me, you know, again, I just started to make these micro decisions. Like, okay, I can picture in my life that I don't want to be in boardrooms and I could care less about a career track or a title or it's just not home driven.
- [28:08]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [28:08]
Emily Hickey
You know, and I'm just gonna start doing the stuff that I like and have faith that it's gonna, you know, bring me to the life that I want, which, which is, you know, a materially driven life. I don't think there's anything wrong with having ambitions around the life that you're creating for your kids or for yourself. But for me, trying to like, do something explicitly to create that life wasn't successful. And I just had to do what I. What I liked and what I was good at. And that, and that was for me was marketing and growing companies. That was all the. All. That's the piece of doing this that I really like. And I feel like I have a nose for. I feel like I'm like, I always tell the kids out of school, if you lined up 100 people, what's the thing you're best at that's actually what you should be doing? And so I think half the battle is figuring out what that is. And I was lucky that it was clear to me what that was.
- [29:00]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I think that leads to joy too. When you can do some index into doing the thing that you're good at doing. You know, it's like my, my hardest part of my job is to try when I'm trying to do the things that I'm not good at. Like, I'm not born to do.
- [29:15]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [29:16]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know, it's part of my job sometimes. But I mean, because of course, we all have responsibilities in our jobs or most of us. Right. That are outside our zone of genius.
- [29:27]
Emily Hickey
Yeah. Yeah.
- [29:28]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It's just part of life.
- [29:30]
Emily Hickey
Yep.
- [29:30]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But it can be demoralizing and.
- [29:34]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [29:37]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It can. Like.
- [29:39]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, I know.
- [29:39]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Like, I'm just, I'm like, why I'm so, like, there's so many things I'm just not naturally good at.
- [29:48]
Emily Hickey
Me too. You know, it's important to know that.
- [29:51]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Like, onboarding people, I'm just so bad. I just can't. I just can't do it.
- [30:00]
Emily Hickey
We've got to see. We got our 90 day plan, you know, thanks to you.
- [30:03]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I know. But I do think that there's been. There is kind of a great freedom that comes when you can admit the things that you're not good at and be like, this is not my life's purpose to create a 90 day onboarding plan. Like, it's just, I'm not good at it. And I'm never going to be. So I can rely on other people to help me with that. I agree.
- [30:29]
Emily Hickey
But I think they're also. I mean, I want to hear like your, Your time in your 30s that we talked about.
- [30:36]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah.
- [30:36]
Emily Hickey
Was this time for you too?
- [30:39]
Gwyneth Paltrow
The 30s are brutal.
- [30:40]
Emily Hickey
They are brutal.
- [30:41]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And I feel like nobody kind of warned.
- [30:45]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [30:46]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know, nobody foreshadowed what the 30s are, which is like this very bizarre. It's like when you're in your 20s, you kind of still have the latitude of being a kid. Right. You're sort of the. Under the. It's like you're in your 20s and anything is still possible. You could still like, choose a different career and your friends and family wouldn't freak out. You know, you could call off an engagement, you could move to a new city. You're in your 20s, you're in a intense period of self discovery. So kind of anything goes.
- [31:18]
Emily Hickey
Yep.
- [31:19]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But then I felt personally like all of a sudden I was turning 30 and I was like, okay. You know, and professionally I was in a good place. So in my 20s, I, you know, I had a. I sort of hit the jackpot and I really thought I wanted to act and I don't know how I feel, you know, sort of become an ambivalent thing, but I really wanted to do it and I was laser focused on doing it. And then. And then I just sort of started. Gone on a train and started doing it all the time. And I didn't have a lot of. I didn't think that I even on a certain sense, like, deserved to have the time to reflect on, like, whether I was happy in my career or not, because I was just like, you, you're so lucky. Shut the up and like, just keep doing movies, you know?
- [32:13]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [32:14]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But then when I turned 30, it's sort of like then you're, you know, I wasn't married, I didn't have a kid. I was really questioning my career, even though I didn't feel that I had the right to do so. And the days of, like, messing around are sort of over. It's like people are now expecting you to be a fully fledged adult.
- [32:37]
Emily Hickey
Yep.
- [32:37]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It starts to be weird if you break off an engagement or change a career or move to a city. It's like, what are you doing? You're 37. Like, like, why are you doing this now? You know, So I felt like this, this pressure to be grown up, to be married, to be a mother, to feel settled in my career, like. And I. And I Also think I wasn't. I wasn't aligned with myself. You know, I think I, I wasn't totally living in integrity yet, meaning I hadn't spent enough time with myself in solitude, really deeply listening to myself to understand who I was and what my purpose was. And then, you know, I, I got married, I had a kid.
- [33:26]
Emily Hickey
Yep.
- [33:27]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And I was like, wait, I. Now I really need to contemplate, like, who I am and what I'm doing and what, what my purpose is and why. Why am I running so hard and why am I, why do I punish myself alongside? Like, it's, it's almost like the, the running, the driving. Yeah. Like, you know, so I heard something once on we can do hard Things, you know, Glennon Doyle's podcast, and she was talking about. I think she was talking about actually her eating disorder and how the discipline around the disorder, you know, was so strong and like, you know, how it kind of create. Created this, like, almost comfortable framework. Right. It's like, you, you're so disciplined about the food, the exercise, the this, the that and that. She had stopped suddenly and asked herself, like, I'm so disciplined and sort of questioning the health of the discipline or not, and thinking to herself, but what am I a disciple of? Which to me, I was like, oh, my God, like, to have created that level of discipline, like, what are, what are. And that so many, like, high achieving people have.
- [34:56]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [34:57]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Like, what are you a disciple of? Are you a disciple of your trauma? Are you a disciple of, like, your perfectionism of never being good enough? Like, where's all this discipline?
- [35:07]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, you know, interesting.
- [35:08]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Where, where is it coming from? Like, why am I so disciplined? Why am I, you know, like, and questioning the health of that.
- [35:17]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [35:18]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But at the same time, it had given me this sense of identity, like, you know, to have discipline and work really hard and work out and do all the things. And so Glenn, in years later, sort of helped me put words to that. But I, at the time, I was like, I was questioning deeply, like, where is this leading and this kind of white knuckling that we do as high achievers in our culture is so dangerous to our development. You know, it's like, it's all the suppression of feeling just to, like, get through it and do it well. And it's like, why, why, why do we feel that push to, like, grin and bear it and be excellent and like, you know.
- [36:08]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [36:09]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So I've been trying then in my 40s. I tried in my 40s to dismantle that which really had. I Think taken over and was. And I felt ravaged in my 30s by my lack of fidelity to myself. Yeah.
- [36:30]
Emily Hickey
That's so interesting. And so you. You felt that. I mean, what is. What does that mean? I guess, like, you. I mean, you were unhappy.
- [36:38]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I was unhappy, yeah. I was unhappy.
- [36:41]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [36:42]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I had spent my whole life trying to be all these things to all these people.
- [36:49]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [36:50]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And picking up the cues, like, ah, ah. I'm supposed to be like that. Wait, I suppose. No, I like that. And what if I want to be really great? I got to be like that. And never. And I'm still, by the way, like, I still am, like, hey, like, how you doing in there? You know what I mean? Because I still. I still. It's like my default is to, like, get back on the. On the track.
- [37:14]
Emily Hickey
Yep.
- [37:15]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And there was a lot in my life that I hadn't really felt. Just take the time to. To feel. And, you know, it's funny, I was. I was talking about this, and then yesterday in the podcast, like, this is something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. And then the guy in the podcast yesterday.
- [37:32]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [37:33]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Articulated. And I was like, this is so interesting because, you know, we think about our childhoods as, like, this defining, like, my childhood difficulties or the. What I went through, the trauma. You know, we all have stuff, right. And we all sort of have a lot of time and space to think about that, but we never give ourselves the grace or the dignity to think about. I mean, I don't anyway. And a lot of my friends have been asking a lot of my friends this, like, do you give yourself the time or the grace to process things that happened to you last year?
- [38:11]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [38:12]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Or when you were, you know, like. Yeah. Do you. Do you. Do you. Do you give yourself time? Like. Yeah, I really want to talk about what happened to me after giving birth or when I got fired at this job or if I had this terrible relationship. Like, we kind of don't do that.
- [38:29]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [38:29]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know, it's like, we have this. We have our childhood stuff, and then we're like, okay, like, we're supposed to be now. Let's, like, get our shit together. But life is a series of, like, getting the shit kicked out of you, you know?
- [38:40]
Emily Hickey
Yeah. Yeah. It's eras of.
- [38:42]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It's just eras of getting your ass kicked. Like, it's the first noble rule. Right. It's like, to live is to suffer. That's it. That's what the Buddhists say. So it's how you approach it. But I do think that the Hardship and the suffering, like, kind of going back to what you were talking about is the best tool for getting to that. Why? You know, like. And I think it's very brave to think about that. Truly unique. Why y. And not look at any other template. Like, can you imagine what that would be like, you know, to like, just to really give yourself that space to think about?
- [39:32]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, I think it's super key. Sean and I did this the other day actually.
- [39:37]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You did?
- [39:37]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [39:38]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So he's Emily's husband.
- [39:40]
Emily Hickey
Yeah. Writes. He writes musical theater. And it's like. Yeah. A hard path as an artist is a hard path because there's no scaffolding of achievement or velocity. You have to create that for yourself. And we were talking about that brand exercise that we did, and doing that at the personal level I actually think is helpful, you know, and we were looking at. He's all about community, you know, like, he. His dad had died when he was young, when he was 13. And his family blew up. He and his twin brother went to boarding school. And it was just this. Everything was suddenly overnight gone, you know, and he would always gravitate. Like he would be a manny for families. And he was like, the kids would. Would be so pissed at, like, if the mom wanted their help getting the groceries out of the station wagon. He was like, all I want. I just would wait for her to get home so I could help her get the groceries out of the station wagon. His dialing is so community oriented. And it's a good, like, orient. It's a good North Star for writing theater because like, that as a purpose driver for theater. Then you're in like Rocky Horror Picture show. And then you're doing things to bring community together. And it's such a strong right. Then you've got the flashlight close to the page. You know what I mean? You're doing something from a sense of purpose and doing it for its own sake as opposed to trying to drive a scorecard, you know, like operating to the scorecard, I think is a huge mistake. And I think you've really. You do have to sit still with yourself and think about what is driving me. And how can. And how does that just like with a brand, you know, like, how can that be an animation point in a spiritual way? That's when I think you're really accessing yourself.
- [41:26]
Gwyneth Paltrow
How do you think you know? Or how does one know if they're off track? You know, if they're sort of like pursuing this should path instead of the why?
- [41:35]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:36]
Gwyneth Paltrow
The core why.
- [41:37]
Emily Hickey
I Mean, I think that's the midlife crisis. I think, like, it's your 30s, and it's the sense of. It's either misery or ennui or something in between, you know, anxiety, depression, boredom, or just that underlying sense of you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing, or you're, like, leaving things on the table, which is the worst feeling in the entire world, you know? And I think you have to listen to it and be willing to make big changes. And I think that takes a lot of courage.
- [42:12]
DSW Advertisement Voice
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- [42:45]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So how do you counsel.
- [42:50]
Emily Hickey
I mean, like, someone in that.
- [42:52]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah, right. Like there's somebody in your life, for example. Right. Who has these sort of existential questions. So, you know, it's someone that you're close to. So how do you approach. Just because I think it's helpful to think about, like, how do you encourage this person to reorient or discover their why?
- [43:14]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, so I think. I'm not a professional coach, clearly. I really go deep with some circumference of people, including people who we've talked about and who I really try to understand. But I think I really get a kick out of that, is trying to understand people and help them figure out how to put themselves on the geyser of their own inspiration, you know? And so, like, the people who we've talked about are people I just really, really know, you know, And I know what's blocking them and I know what drives them and just helping to talk to them about again, like the. The left brain scaffolding that they could put into place and stop worrying about. I think a lot of times that, like, when you talk to friends, like, have you ever talked to someone and they're like, I don't know whether I should get divorced, move to a new city, like, get a new job, or like, the whole thing is Bermuda Triangle. Like, I don't know what to do, you know? And that's where I think really sitting down and being able to visualize what do you want your life? What would make you happy? You know, if you just Relax and sit in a dark room and think about that. I think you've got to, you have to find the stillness of your, of orienting to yourself so you can start to make your left brain decisions around it. But I think a lot of people, like truly, I think a lot of people cannot answer that question.
- [44:39]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah, I know. I think that's, I think that's right. I think, I think a lot of people are, you know, it's, it's, it's actually an interesting. Like if you think about the eventuality of, of getting there, like at what point are you, you know, stepping on the wrong path? Like, and who are you? Yeah, you know, who are you pleasing in that moment that takes you away from yourself, that takes you on the wrong path. And how do you reel that back?
- [45:07]
Emily Hickey
Well, for me, I mean it was like cutting the vines off my feet. It really was. And it's also like just being. It's the shadow self stuff that we talk about a lot.
- [45:15]
Gwyneth Paltrow
She's not in therapy but she reads about young.
- [45:21]
Emily Hickey
That's why I'm always grilling you about. I know, like how do you think about. You talk about your shadow self a lot and it's specific to you and I don't think you can get from here to there without integrating that stuff. And that actually can be the path. Like for me I like it hit me like a ton of. I was super miserable. I was traveling a lot for work and I picked up a Tony Robbins book in the airport and I started to read it just like in the little bookstore and it really, I mean it's embarrassing the degree to which that changed my life. Like that guy is a genius. And the neuro linguistic programming modality that is behind his work is incredible.
- [46:02]
Gwyneth Paltrow
What does that mean?
- [46:03]
Emily Hickey
It's basically self narrat. Like have you created a glass ceiling for yourself? And in my case I think that my family circumstances had created a glass ceiling that you know, so much of it is turning the lights on in your own room and being, being able to see that like what are you? It is literally getting out of your own shadow. Like what? Like when I read even the first chapter of that book, it was a huge light bulb for me of like, okay, I'm making decisions out of low self esteem. I'm making decisions out of fear of failure. And that's coming directly from my family's circumstance of, you know, that our financial circumstances had changed quite a bit when I was young and the hardness that that resulted. It didn't, that wasn't the Problem. The problem, I think, was just how my parents reacted to it, you know, and my father's constant refrain of being a failure and my mom's anger and inability to do anything about it. And it just was. It just created a glass ceiling in a lot of ways. And I think people like, I'm curious. Your family was so different.
- [47:06]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah.
- [47:07]
Emily Hickey
Your parents, you are you. You do not need to live your parents unlived lives. You know what I mean?
- [47:13]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Like you're. But I do need to make sure that I. The glass ceilings that I've created for myself are dismantled. You know, I think we all create those.
- [47:24]
Emily Hickey
What do you think yours are?
- [47:26]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I think, you know, especially as it pertains to goop. I have. I used to feel, and I've. I feel like I've done a lot of work around this, but I used to feel like, who am I to do this? Like.
- [47:43]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [47:44]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And, and who am I to say that I can learn these things or attempt to learn these things? And, and, and who, who am I to think I could ever have, like a truly successful company? And so part of me, I think that's created that glass ceiling because I don't feel worthy in that way. Like, who, who the do I think I am? You know? Yeah. And. And so I've made unconscious choices that have kept things smaller or contained or.
- [48:18]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [48:19]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know, and there's so many ways to do that. Like, there's so many ways to yourself over like that.
- [48:24]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [48:25]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know, it's hiring wrong people.
- [48:27]
It's.
- [48:28]
It's a million different things. You know, it's like making these micro choices around, you know, business decisions that dilute your energy or, you know, or focusing on the things that you're not great at. It's like all that stuff perpetuates the glass.
- [48:47]
DSW Advertisement Voice
It does.
- [48:47]
Emily Hickey
It really does.
- [48:48]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And this is sort of what I've been spending the last year really trying to be aware of and like trying to, you know, get it off my head.
- [49:00]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [49:01]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know.
- [49:02]
Emily Hickey
Yeah. That's so interesting. And it is so insidious. Like when you make. When one makes decisions from the glass ceiling, it does perpetuate itself. And that's where I think it's the biggest. Gotcha. It really takes you down a bad path and you can waste a lot of time and. And it's also like, I feel, you know, I feel like you. You don't. You deserve a lot of credit for the brand that you have built. I think you are one of the greats in terms of brand builders and that GOOP is one of the greats in terms of the awareness level. And it's an extraordinary accomplishment. And then I think also just the trust level. Any woman in this demographic who Googles where should I get my eyebrows done? And LA is an autobiographical and if GOOP comes up, that's the one she's gonna click on because she trusts it.
- [49:54]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah.
- [49:54]
Emily Hickey
Right. And to create brand reach and awareness of that level, with that level of trust is almost impossible.
- [50:03]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. Well, so.
- [50:04]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, you do. And I think you.
- [50:06]
Gwyneth Paltrow
There are certain things I've done well, you know.
- [50:11]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [50:11]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And there are certain things that I.
- [50:14]
Haven'T done so well.
- [50:16]
But I do think that especially now I'm starting to see like the value in having gone slower, built slower, learned as I go. But I do really, I am always surprised by the power of self limiting thoughts.
- [50:40]
Emily Hickey
Yeah. Yep.
- [50:42]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And. And how. I mean talk about manifesting.
- [50:44]
Emily Hickey
It's like.
- [50:45]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And I feel like it's easier to manifest that stuff than.
- [50:48]
Emily Hickey
I agree.
- [50:49]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know?
- [50:50]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [50:50]
Gwyneth Paltrow
The ceiling busting stuff.
- [50:52]
Emily Hickey
Yeah, I agree. And that's the Tony Robbins. It's just like fixing yourself Narrative and neuro linguistic program is a. Programming is a tool for doing that. It's really powerful. It's a killer tool. Yeah.
- [51:04]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So I think I don't even heard of this.
- [51:06]
Emily Hickey
I'm like obsessed with it. I did it. I spent a couple years doing those exercises and it was life changing.
- [51:11]
Gwyneth Paltrow
How did you write them? Write down stuff?
- [51:13]
Emily Hickey
No, it's meditative. You know, like one of them is really neat. It's like an autobiography. It's like, it's called like biography. You basically act like, like who in your life do you feel really knows and loves you? Like for me, this is my sister. I feel like she really, really knows me, you know, and like she. And if you imagine how they see you, you know, it's very helpful because I think you give yourself credit. You see yourself in an outline that you can click into that's accurate instead of all the, you know, self flagellating, you know, control freak. You know, all of us are such control freaks. But I mean, so yeah, it's just a lot of interest. It's like reprogramming the glass ceiling stuff. That's what it's a. That's what it does. It's super helpful. How did you get in your 30s? How did you wind your way out of this?
- [52:11]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So I had apple and I had a mini. I had my first midlife crisis then because I was like, I. I've spent all this time and energy and effort building this career that I don't think I want.
- [52:32]
Emily Hickey
Didn't you think you wanted. Why do you, why do you think you didn't like, why do you think acting was not your thing long term?
- [52:39]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know, I'm not sure it was acting because I loved doing theater and I loved acting in the moments where it was transcendent and incredible and like, there's no feeling like it. And I do love that and I still love that. I think it was all the stuff that came with it. You know, it's like, you know, it's an industry that attracts like some unhealed people. It's a lot of loneliness, a lot of traveling and you know, like you were talking about before, I'm such a hearth home person. It was really hard for me, like, for my makeup to be alone in far flung places, like in a hotel room with no friends, no family, no kitchen.
- [53:28]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [53:29]
Gwyneth Paltrow
No. Nothing to ground me. You know, no dog. It's like. And I, I think I, I didn't make great choices in terms of like, from a self honoring place of like, wow, do I really want to do this? It was like, well, you have to do this because it's so and so. Or it's this money or it's whatever.
- [53:49]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [53:50]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So I just, so I was burnt out. I was, you know, I had a. Had run into a lot of people that I felt like in the business that weren't great.
- [54:04]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [54:05]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You know, and you know, I was, you know, not to be like, woe is me. But I was like, you know, being in the public eye is no joke. Like, it's, it's, it's brutal and. But so it was, you know, it was like, it was kind of a rough ride and I was like, why am I doing this? Why did I do this? Why did I want to do this? And I kind of gave myself permission to stop and I. Luckily I could afford to stop. A lot of women have children and have to go straight back to work.
- [54:37]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [54:38]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And like that I feel so deeply fortunate that I was able to be like, you know what? I'm just gonna stop and I'm gonna like, be with my kids. And I, during that time period, I was like, I think I'm missing something. I think I'm missing. I have this great channel of like putting my creative stuff or resolving my, you know, my, my emotional stuff through this one channel of art. But it's not totally everything. Like, there's something else I want to be doing and I don't know what it is. And I just sort of slowed everything down and waited, kind of waited for the answer to come through me. And it was years.
- [55:21]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [55:21]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Like, it was a long time.
- [55:23]
Emily Hickey
Yep.
- [55:24]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And I kind of did a bit of my day job when I needed to do it, or, you know, like, with Iron man movies and, you know, I did, like, some supporting things here and there. But I was. I was on a mission to understand, like, because I also felt so recalibrated around my purpose when I had kids.
- [55:47]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [55:48]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And I was like, oh, okay, so this is my real purpose. Like, I'm. Yeah, I'm here to have these guys.
- [55:54]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [55:55]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And then. So who am I? Like, in the. Like, if I'm, you know, cascading down, like, who am I? Like, then who am I as a woman and as a person and as an artist and am I something?
- [56:11]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [56:12]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I gave myself that opportunity to really just see what came forward. And by the way, it was super weird because it was like, oh, I want to do something in the digital. This is like, you know, when people had aol. You know what I mean? Like, this is a while ago.
- [56:30]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [56:31]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And when I started thinking about this, this was like, in the early 2000s.
- [56:34]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [56:35]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And so now it's not so hard to imagine. Like, oh, you're, you know, you're doing something and you want to do something else. Like, you're a CEO and you want to write a book. Great. Or, you know, you run a marketing, you know, performance marketing company, but you also are interested in brand. Fine. Or you wanna, you know, like, it's. It's now sort of, I feel like, more acceptable. But at the time, I felt like, as a woman, if you were a professional, you stayed smack in the middle of that lane.
- [57:06]
Emily Hickey
Yeah.
- [57:06]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And you. You don't, you know, because you're. If you're an actor, you don't start a brand. Like, what the hell are you doing? You know, it was like, really out there at the time. Like, I. I think, you know, we forget how.
- [57:19]
Emily Hickey
I know.
- [57:20]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Totally anathema. It was like. But I just. Once I sort of clicked into it, I was like, okay. It was like, sort of. I felt like, this vibration. Like, it's something. It's something to do with this. It's something to do with, like, this idea that we can always be in pursuit of ourselves. Like, we can always be becoming who we want to be and however that looks. And it started to feel intoxicating to me. And then I started to think about the ways in which I felt that way. And it was in a Lot of different ways. You know, it was. It was in, like, researching gut health in the sense that, like, my son had eczema and, like, what was the access of that and what would the recipes be and how would I nourish my family, you know, and that was like, a. A big part of it. And what I got from travel and what I got from fine art and all the things. And like, how do they all come together and how do they let me be uniquely me and let me sort of feel, you know, and so, I don't know, it's, like, crazy, but I was like, I'm gonna start a website, you know?
- [58:29]
Emily Hickey
No, but it was the exact. I mean, the amazing thing is it's just the exact right thing for you, because I don't think you pursuing yourself in total privacy would be fulfilling for you. I think it's doing it with. And on behalf of the group.
- [58:46]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah.
- [58:46]
Emily Hickey
Taking women, you know, as into this modern. Really, you know, like a more open space where women can make autonomous decisions around what is best for them, you know, Like, I think that that wrapper around your pursuit of self is what gives this meaning for you.
- [59:04]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [59:05]
Emily Hickey
You know, so you, like, stumbled into something, I feel like was exactly right. And I feel like I. I did the same thing. And what. What. What that had in common was just the space to do it.
- [59:17]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah.
- [59:17]
Emily Hickey
And I do think it takes courage. And you, like, that's often when you talk to people, it's like, well, you. You have to stop what you're doing. You know what I mean? You have to get into some other, like, open space to let other things happen, you know?
- [59:32]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And that's the scary part. Right. It's like, yeah, stop what I'm doing. Right. What about my rent? What about. Right. So it's also being pragmatic around how or how do you spiritually stop what you're doing, even if you have to keep doing it, you know, to pay the bills? Yeah. Like, how do you spiritually put it down, do it well enough to, you know, maintain while you really give yourself the space to think about that.
- [59:57]
Emily Hickey
Yep.
- [59:58]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I think it's like when women in particular, like, are following that vein of, like, why am I alive?
- [60:06]
Emily Hickey
Yep.
- [60:07]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So much power and beauty comes out of that, like, when you're acting from that place.
- [60:11]
Emily Hickey
Yep. I really agree. I do believe in purpose. And it's not that I think it's, like, this one thing. It's not only one thing. I think there are a few threads of it, but you've gotta figure that out. And get yourself in the right neighborhood. And it's like the outcome, like, I really believe in a miracle year. The outcomes of what can happen and how fast. You know, whether it's a business or a person, you know, when you orient to that, it's like a whole different deal. So, yeah, it's worth it.
- [60:41]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah. You're the best.
- [60:43]
Emily Hickey
You're the best.
- [60:49]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Thanks for tuning in.
- [60:50]
This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios.
- [60:53]
I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.