Esoteric Systems: Why We Are Drawn To Them and How We Can Use Them to Serve Our Lives

Summary

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The goop Podcast – June 9, 2026

Episode: "Esoteric Systems: Why We Are Drawn To Them and How We Can Use Them to Serve Our Lives"
Host: Gwyneth Paltrow
Guest: Emily Hickey

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Episode Overview

In this thoughtful and illuminating episode, Gwyneth Paltrow and her longtime friend Emily Hickey explore the world of esoteric systems—astrology, numerology, tarot, human design, I Ching, and more. With curiosity and openness (and a spirit of playful skepticism), they delve into the reasons people are drawn to these frameworks, how these ancient practices continue to offer personal insight, and their experience using them as tools for self-discovery. The conversation weaves personal anecdotes, philosophical musings, and practical takeaways in a tone that is conversational, nuanced, and self-aware.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: Why Esoteric Systems Now?

[03:54]–[06:26]

• Context: The hosts reveal the increasing popularity of esoteric tools in today’s tech-driven, rational world, especially among women, and reflect on cultural perceptions of such modalities.
• Gwyneth: “Whenever we post on Instagram about anything in this category... there’s an insatiable appetite for horoscopes and all this kind of stuff.”
• Emily introduces the belief spectrum, from science rationalists (e.g., Gwyneth’s partner Brad) to spiritualists and "romantics" who feel there is more to life than what science explains.

Interconnectedness and the Limits of Rationality

[06:26]–[11:03]

• Discussion of Natural Mysteries: Aspen trees, fungal networks, parthenogenesis, and mysterious phenomena reveal the limits of current scientific understanding.
• Emily: “I truly think we don’t have the ability to measure all of the properties of life... systems like astrology, numerology, I Ching, they are masterpieces, same as the pyramids.”

The Axial Age & Spiritual Masterpieces

[11:03]–[12:23]

• The “Axial Age” (500-600 BC) as the birth of major philosophical and religious systems worldwide; how much of this wisdom remains foundational.

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Deep Dive: The I Ching as Oracle and Teacher

[12:27]–[17:14]

• How It Works: Emily describes the I Ching—throwing coins, receiving hexagrams, and using natural metaphors to break out of rational blind spots.
• Gwyneth shares a pivotal life experience where the I Ching guided her major career decision.
• Debate over whether such systems are inherently wise or simply provide psychological comfort.
• Emily, referencing Jung: “At the moment you threw the coins, it came out of the psychology, the shared psychology of that moment in time.” [17:43]
• The "Rainmaker" anecdote from Chinese tradition demonstrates synchronistic change arising from internal alignment, not external force.
  Emily: “You want to try to create the mental and emotional environment where the right things happen, that things just ensue from a certain state.” [19:44]

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Human Design: A Modern Repackaging

[20:34]–[24:51]

• What Is Human Design? A system blending astrology, I Ching, chakras, and more, offering a personal "chart" and strategy for life.
• Gwyneth: “I’m a generator type... I always thought I had to be the one opening the doors... but actually my power is in responding.”
• Takeaway: These frameworks often provide useful language for self-understanding and can challenge societal expectations (e.g., about initiation vs. response).

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Astrology: Archetypes and Life’s Blueprint

[27:48]–[35:35]

• Emily: “I use astrology, but only, again, I don’t believe in it literally... It’s metaphorical, it’s just a really helpful tool.”
• The hosts discuss the complexity of reading charts: importance of Saturn’s placement (where your soul is “grinding through” a major life lesson), houses, and astrological nodes.
• Emily analyzes Gwyneth’s chart: “Saturn in your home—there was insecurity in the childhood that will cause you for the rest of your life... It’s your soul’s work.”
• Astrology's utility framed as both informative and symbolic: “It emboldens people to live a bigger, fuller life because they feel like, oh, that’s there for me.” [31:06]
• Personal sharing on challenges and arc of life as shown in their own charts.

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Numerology: Pythagoras, Personal Years, and Meaningful Numbers

[38:52]–[49:58]

• Every summer, Gwyneth gets numerology readings; she shares experiences with uncanny accuracy.
• Gwyneth: “There are things like that to me that are inexplicable... and then there are things that are a bit more concrete. Like the numerology framework.”
• Emily: “Numerology got reinvented around 1900... but it was all the same concepts—that there’s a certain vibration to each number.”
• Life path numbers:
  • Gwyneth—a 1 (“the pioneer, initiator, the leader”).
  • Emily—the rare 33/6 (“the teacher, nurturer, caretaker; struggles with martyrdom, perfectionism”).
• The practical takeaway—numerology, like astrology, helps frame one’s life and current transitions.

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Skepticism & Belief: Are These Systems "Real"?

[44:59]–[51:17]

• Both hosts navigate the line between metaphorical and literal belief.
• Gwyneth: “...even if it’s bullshit, just to have, like, you know, a companion in giving you context for things, you know? I don’t know. But I kind of don’t think it’s bullshit.”
• Emily: “I don’t think it’s bullshit at all.”
• Historical context: astrology’s fall from grace after Newtonian rationalism, but prior, it was integral to scientific development.

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Manifestation, Synchronicity & the Rational Mind

[52:53]–[57:09]

• Discussion of modern manifestation—vision boards, affirmations, and intention as energetic ordering.
• Emily: “There’s a power to the visual imagination. I really do. There’s some strange power... Maybe visualizing something has some ability to create what it, you know, it’s ordering it off Amazon, you know, it’s pointing your arrow at it. I don’t know.”
• Examples: Jim Carrey writing himself a check for $10M, which later "manifested"; the importance of patience and internal wholeness (echoes of the rainmaker story).

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Concluding Reflections & Practical Takeaways

[57:14]–[59:19]

• Both agree on the value of these frameworks as tools for introspection, guidance, and “pulling back” from everyday stress.
• Gwyneth: “I do think that any tool we have for pulling... remembering to pull back out of the day to day minutia that has our nervous system so jacked... is helpful.”
• Emily: “Life is hard... it’s reassuring and helpful to think that there’s some arc... that there’s something there helping and supporting you.”
• Both express a renewed desire to explore further, particularly with human design.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Emily (on esoteric wisdom):

  "I think the same as the pyramids, that there are spiritual and ethical masterpieces that the human race has created. And I would count astrology as one of those." [09:54]

• Gwyneth (on astrology):

  “Saturn in your home—there was insecurity in the childhood that will cause you for the rest of your life... It’s your soul’s work.” [30:11]

• Gwyneth (on signs from her father):

  "And he hands [the room key] to me... Burst into tears, like, burst into weeping. Like, it was the most nuts thing that has happened to me... How can that not be a sign?" [43:46]

• Emily (on manifestation and patience):

  “The biggest problem in the human race is lack of patience... Maybe something about manifestation where you just visualize that you’ve already... you’re already there or whatever it is." [54:51]

• Gwyneth (on seeking esoteric help):

  "I think it’s like a framework to help... being alive, it's so confusing. What is? ... Maybe it’s up to each of us to find what’s the framework that resonates most with us." [25:05]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Theme – [03:54]
• Belief Spectrum & Interconnectedness – [06:26]
• The I Ching Explained – [12:58]
• Jung, Synchronicity, the Rainmaker Story – [17:43]
• Human Design Discussion – [20:34]
• Astrology as Life Map – [27:48]
• Numerology & Life Path Years – [38:52]
• Debate: Metaphor vs. Literal Truth – [44:59]
• Manifestation & Visualization – [52:53]
• Closing Reflections & Next Steps – [57:14]

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Summary Takeaways

• Esoteric systems, whether taken literally or metaphorically, hold enduring value as frameworks for introspection, self-understanding, and navigating life's uncertainties.
• Personal stories and uncanny coincidences ("signs") reinforce their relevance, even for skeptics.
• These systems often draw from ancient wisdom, with layers of cultural, psychological, and spiritual meaning; they ultimately help users access new perspectives and self-compassion.
• The conversation encourages pursuing whatever tools resonate, approaching them with both curiosity and healthy skepticism, and using them not to escape reality but to better understand and participate in it.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Gwyneth Paltrow]

you for tuning in to the GOOP podcast. Today's episode is made possible by Polestar. Those who know me know my car is my mobile sanctuary. It's one of the few places in the day that can feel really calm and restorative. So the space matters. And that's why I love Polestar 3. It's an all electric SUV with a kind of thoughtful innovation that I'm always drawn to. Things like massage seats, immersive 3D surround sound, and Google Gemini, which can answer questions, set reminders, and just make life feel a little more streamlined. When I'm on the go, the technology is seamlessly integrated and complements the minimalist design. Everything feels intentional, clean and beautifully considered. Whether I'm heading to a meeting or just taking a moment for myself in the car, Polestar 3 makes the drive feel like a sanctuary. Learn more and book your Test [e-mail]. When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah, did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of

[Emily Hickey]

view of love, people understand each other

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled.

[Emily Hickey]

I now know that nobody changes until

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

they change their energy.

[Emily Hickey]

And when you change your energy, you change your life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Hello and welcome to the GOOP Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This episode is part of our Pursuit series. And so I am once again sitting down with my friend, Emily Hickey. Today's topic is super interesting in my book, esoteric Systems. So, astrology, numerology, tarot. These ancient systems we use to try to guide our lives and make decisions in an increasingly technological world. It can be easy to write these things off as woo woo or driven by coincidence. And I definitely have done that in the past. But today, Emily and I want to dive deep on what those systems are, why we are drawn to them, and the unexpected insight and guidance they can provide for us. So let's get into my conversation with Emily. What's up?

[Emily Hickey]

And sup, Gwenny,

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

welcome back to the goop pod. Thank you. How have you been?

[Emily Hickey]

I've been great. Good. Very busy. 2026.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

2020 26. Fire horse.

[Emily Hickey]

Energy. Yeah. I mean, it's the thunderclap of a year.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It is. What's happening? What's the energy behind it for you?

[Emily Hickey]

Productive chaos.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes. I would say that's absolutely very an apt characterization of what it feels like so far.

[Emily Hickey]

It's a nuts year.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It is a nuts year, but it feels positive.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. It's going to a cool new place.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Ooh. Well, you can fill me in afterwards. Okay. I'm extremely excited about this, this quarter's chapter of the Emily Hickey podcast, because today we're going to talk about esoterics. Esoteric systems like astrology, numerology, tarot, which none of us really. We neither of us really.

[Emily Hickey]

I don't know much about that one.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I don't know much about it either. But maybe we. Maybe we should.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Manifestation signs, enneagram, maybe human design, which is an interesting one. All of these, like, prayers and feng shui, all these systems that. Or modalities, I guess, that people are really interested in. Like our. Whenever we post on Instagram about anything in this category like this, there's an insatiable appetite for horoscopes and all this kind of stuff. So I thought it would be really interesting, especially because you're super into astrology and you teach me so much about it. And then I have my systems, too, that I kind of rely on just to sort of canvas them a little bit, to talk about each one of these systems a little bit. And, you know, do we actually believe in them? Why are we drawn to them? How are they serving us? And why, like, women, I feel, are so drawn to it? And then, I don't know, then it's like they're so Dismissed as well. Yeah, right. It's like people think it's. And even really, even really open people like, like Brad, for example, if, if I'm like, oh, you know, Emily just said this cool thing about. It's like the. He glazes over, you know what I mean? Like anything sort of that's not, I guess, based in science.

[Emily Hickey]

Yep.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But I wanted to ask you about. Well, what were you gonna say?

[Emily Hickey]

Well, I was gonna say I think I have a lot of friends like Brad. I think there's a spectrum of belief, you know, there's a spectrum of that people and humans fall into that sort of represents their emotional point of view on life. And I think on the one side of that spectrum is people like Brad. They're cold, dry, light of science rationalists. That things can be measured and observed and they might even be religious or Christian or whatever, but they still think in terms of our physical existence on the planet, that it can be explained and observed. That it is linear, that time progresses linear, that there's a difference between mind and matter, that nature is inanimate, that there's not some interconnectedness. And then you have on the far other side the romantics or the spiritualists who think that it isn't just what you see is what you get, but that there's this underside of reality and of existence that cannot be explained by science, that has to be accessed through esoteric systems.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And that's sort of the point, right? That it can't be accessed through science. That it involves faith of some kind or like a knowing.

[Emily Hickey]

Yes. And a belief that we maybe just don't have the perceptional abilities to explain everything and that, that this stuff deserves to be heard. That's what Jung, the great Jung would have said. It's like dreams. That these sort of pre scientific systems deserve to be heard. That there's some sort of esoteric wisdom that explains things that can't otherwise be explained. And that there's some sort of horizontal kind of cosmic fabric that's connecting everything. That if you can tap into that, that you get sort of this other compass in your life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

One sort of example that I thought might, you know, I, I think about when I think, you know, people don't believe at all in this kind of stuff. I think about like the aspen trees, the birch trees or the fungal system which is all one organism. Right. Like science has proven that it's all one interconnected, like with the. Connected with these tiny little phyla of bacteria or whatever. They are. So like that to me, I'M like, yeah, okay, there's a mushroom growing here and there's a mushroom growing three miles away. And who is going to believe that they're connected or not? Like, there has to be some.

[Emily Hickey]

I agree. I mean, that my landscaper was telling us about the mother tree concept because we have aspens in our backyard. They literally share a root system, but they're now understanding that even other kinds of trees. There's a mother tree that feeds the entire underground system, even if it's not, like, directly related to it. But I think, you know, like, my. One of my weird but true articles from the Wall Street Journal last year was about this undifferentiated brain matter growing in a petri dish that on its own grew eyes. Like, look it up. It's unbelievable.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Are you serious?

[Emily Hickey]

No, it's. It's like, it's unbelievable. But it, the. It grew these very primitive versions of eyes. And I think it's the same thing as, like, parthenogenesis, like when a lizard suddenly develops, you know, male reproductive organs because there's no one else, there's not a male inside. Like, I just think that there's a, you know, a frontal edge to life that is. That improvises and creates. To me, I don't need an explanation physically because I don't think that's where it lives.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So what do you think?

[Emily Hickey]

I think that. I truly think we don't have the ability to measure all of the properties of life. But I think that the rationalist side of things, it's almost nihilistic or atheistic to me. Like, I don't. I think that there's more going on, and you can't just reduce to what we as humans can understand. And I do think these things deserve to be heard. And on top of that, I think that if you look at the I Ching or astrology or numerology, they are masterpieces. I think the same as the pyramids, that there are spiritual and ethical masterpieces that the human race has created. And I would count astrology as one of those. Same as yoga, same as acupuncture, the I Ching, Chinese philosophies, monotheism, you know, like all of those, by the way, popping up at many, many of those popped up between 500 and 600 BC was called the Axial Age for my religious studies major. Going deep. But I mean, it's really fascinating that at a certain point in time, the, the foundations of much of human philosophy and religion popped up without any contact.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Why at that time, I don't know.

[Emily Hickey]

It's just that the development of our brains knows what. But for some reason, around 500 to 600 BC, a lot of the foundational systems popped up, like Judaism, the Old Testament, or Buddhism. Buddha lived at the same time as, I think, Confucius and Lao Tzu. And that was like, when the I Ching kind of evolved into what it is. But anyway, like.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And it's interesting too, because a lot of those. Those religions, like Judaism is based on a very mystical. Like, there is a whole magic element. I think same with Buddhism in a certain sense. You know, there's like a. Well, I guess Buddhism is more contemplative, but there's something very soulful about how those religions were structured and, like, what the practices were meant to do in terms of, like, enlivening, enlightening the human soul, like, connecting us more to our humanity, understanding the diminishment of ego and all those things.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, that's it. I think that they're masterpieces. And if you think about, like, Taoism and the I Ching, like, it is so much about going with these cosmic laws or just the way that nature functions and the. Like, the. The resolution of opposites, that strengths will always turn into weaknesses, and then they'll turn back into strengths, like, based on

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

how they're tied to our perception of ourselves, our ego.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. And. Well, that you can tap into these natural laws that, like, you know, the rain will always be followed by the sun, the day is always followed by the night. That there's just this duality of opposites. Yeah. Like, there's a flow to natural life. We're part of natural life. And so if you stop trying so hard and flow into things, you know, that you're going to be more successful and not get so upset by change. And that's. The I Ching is the book of changes. And it is a way.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Tell me about the book of.

[Emily Hickey]

I'm obsessed with this thing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Let's hear it.

[Emily Hickey]

I mean, we're gonna have to sit down and do it together sometime.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Lay it on me. Okay.

[Emily Hickey]

So it basically, you know, is this ancient Chinese. It's like Yoda. It's like very Jedi. You know, it's this ancient kind of companion book to life and to navigating what is the only thing we can count on in life, which is change. But it also has changed in two ways. It's the transformation of yourself, you know, and so people. It was built for sort of imperial China, for statesmanship and for people that was used first as an oracle, like, what should I do? Should I go to fight these guys on this date or on that date? Should I plant the crop on this date or on that date? Things like that. But then it evolved into what you're saying, which is this companion book to developing yourself and to navigating difficult dilemmas and things like that with grace. And it's sort of like it's a framework for introspection. Like the solution to the problem is always you, you know, and so you

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

go to always the problem.

[Emily Hickey]

That's pretty clear at this point. Yeah, but. But it, like somehow it's one of those things, like we've talked about this, that when you look at it, it looks back. It's like this psychological mirror and it taps into all these metaphors of nature, like wind on a. Rippling through a pond or things like that, to help you get out of your rational mind and the sort of blind spots of how you rationally think about things and solve a problem at a different level. So you could go to it. I've been. I've used it maybe four times in the last couple of years. So I'll go to it and say, like, I did it last night when I was thinking about this and gave it just my current, you know, disastrous problem that I'm trying to figure out. Like, what should I. What should I do? And there's art and art to asking the question in eight words or less. And it somehow comes back at something that is so perfect that it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Do you open the book randomly?

[Emily Hickey]

Do you know you. So you throw coins.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

[Emily Hickey]

And there's a thing online that I use, but back in the day, they would split the. It would take like 30 minutes just to do the reading because they would split these stocks. But it's basically, you throw coins, three coins, six times, and then it counts heads or tails. That's sort of. I mean, but there's just so many cool concepts within it. And it gives you a hexagram based on that coin toss. And it's. It is a metaphor for the situation you're in. And then when you change one of those lines into its opposite, which is very Chinese, change something into its opposite, change a strength into a weakness, or weakness into a strength. It shows you how to get out of that moment in your life. And it's. It is one of those things where it's somehow. It is unbelievable how accurately it will come back at. Like, it almost knows what you asked, but it has to be. I asked it something for you and it came back with nonsense. But because I can't Ask it for you.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, interesting.

[Emily Hickey]

You know what I mean?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You're just.

[Emily Hickey]

You're.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You're. What is it called? You're like breaking a memory where. I once had a therapist, so I must have been in my late 20s, and I had a really important question. It was like a real. Like, do I do this or do I do this? Which would have completely changed the course of my entire life. And we did the I Ching. That's the only time I've. Because she did it and she was like, let's do it. And it very clearly was. Told me not to do the sort of more far flung thing that would like, completely have altered the course of my life.

[Emily Hickey]

That's so interesting. And it was. And it was. And it's somehow new. Like, it's a wild. And you did that. You followed.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I followed it. I did. Because I was very, very, very split. And it would have taken my life in like a completely. I mean, I wouldn't have done acting. And it was very clear with me.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, no, it will come in just bullet clear. I'm gonna ask you later what the question was. But I mean, that's.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I'll tell you. Not on tv.

[Emily Hickey]

Okay.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Or whatever this is.

[Emily Hickey]

No, it's fascinating. And it's somehow. So then the question. So either it's like just a Rorschachi type thing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Like, are we doing these things to feel better? Do we think there's inherent wisdom in this stuff?

[Emily Hickey]

I mean, I think what. I mean, this is discrediting to myself, I guess, but I think it somehow knows. Not in the sense that what Jung would say is that we've talked about this, his concept of synchronicity, that he thinks things come out of a shared moment that are synchronous with each other. So that it isn't that the coins know what you asked or know who you are or, you know, there's no cause and effect to it at all. It's just that at the moment you threw the coins, it came out of the psychology, the shared psychology of that

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

moment in time which transferred energetically something onto the coins or that they came

[Emily Hickey]

out of the same thing. They were two things coming out of you. You feeling that, you know, that it was that whole story of his about that rainmaker of the guy. Yeah. But I do this all the time in my life, you know, I've done it a lot this year.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We tell that really quick because it's a good.

[Emily Hickey]

I'm obsessed. This is helpful to anybody, anybody ever, anywhere.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's very helpful it is. I. Since you told me about it, I've circled back to it many a time in my head.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, I really use this. And I think especially this year when it's just such a gigantic chaos machine of 2026. Everybody I know not, you know, I mean, so. But basically his favorite story, to the point where he would tell his students, they'd be like, if I told you the one about the rainmaker, and we would laugh. But his. Richard Wilhelm, who was the guy who brought Chinese philosophy to the west, period, he translated everything. He embedded himself in China in the early 1900s, lived in rural China, dug up everything. The definitive translation of the I Ching is him. And so he really was the guy who brought the east to the West. So he was embedded with these. These ancient Chinese societies. It was like the most beautiful China. Maybe it was like the most beautiful civilization ever, actually, like ancient China. But this is the 1900s, and that's all still existed. But he was in a village. There was a drought. There had been a very long drought, and it was gonna be game over for the village. So they went. They knew about a rainmaker somewhere in the vicinity. So they went, got that guy out of his hut in some distant village, brought in, they said, and he came back with them to this village. And he said, I need a hut. He sat in the hut for three days, and on the third day, it snowed. And this is Wilhelm saying this. I believe this, you know. And so Wilhelm then went into the hut and said, how did you make it snow? And the guy was like, I didn't make it snow. He said, but when I left my village, I felt good. Everything felt good. And when I walked into this village, everything felt off. And so I sat and still and meditated until everything felt good again inside me. And then the thing that naturally should happen happened, right? And so, you know, Jung would say that that is a property of life. And that if you settle, you know, you. You want to try to create the mental and emotional environment where the right things happen, that things just ensue from a certain state. And so I do that a lot. Like, you know, if I just am feeling like nothing is going. There's no order to the world, and everything is going in 30 different. Always know I have to settle myself. And it's not because we push.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So we have the. We have the instinct to push so hard against that stuff or to figure it out, or how do I unlock this? And sometimes it's just. It's the exact opposite of that, which is. Brings Me to touch quickly on the human design thing, only because I got so somebody. It's not that well known, but it's based in astrology, which I still want to ask you about. And it combines a whole bunch of different systems. And it sounds shady. It was like some guy on Ibiza, like, it came to him or whatever. But actually, because it's chakras, it uses the I Ching, it uses the kabbalistic tree of life, and very much your chart. And for me, it said I have to look up what I am again. But actually, Jen Aniston, sorry to drop the name, gave me this once for my birthday, and I was like, what the fuck is human design? And it was super interesting. And then I had, like a reading with this person, and then I. It's like a very complicated chart you get. And I took copious notes and I lost the thing and. But now there are LLMs who can. Who can help you. But. So I'm a generator type, which I think is like 70% of the people. And so I'm essentially a responder, which I thought was so interesting because I always thought of myself as, like. Because I can. I have vision. I thought, oh, I have to be the one, like, opening the doors and, like, you know, turning vision into action. But actually my power is in responding. So even if I. If I see something or I understand something and respond to it, or if somebody else presents something to me, then it's like I can know what the right thing to do is. I can, but I'm not. I thought it was really interesting to think about or kind of redefining that for myself, because I always like, oh, I'm failing because I'm not taking initiative in this way, you know, but it's not my type according to the human design. Do you know what I mean? No.

[Emily Hickey]

It's so interesting. I mean, see, I think that's the perfect way to use this stuff. I don't personally believe in all this in a literal way.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

You know, I just think that they're helpful tools to get around your rational mind. But that's interesting to think. What would be the. Like, I was doing this last night and looking at mine. It was really interesting. It's not a way I thought about myself at all. Like, what are your gotchas for that? You know?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So mine are my key takeaways, are I'm built to respond, not to initiate. My energy works best when I wait for life to come to me and let my gut respond rather than chasing. And I'm Always, like, it feels so inauthentic to me when I have to chase something or even like posting on Instagram when the teens like, come on, you gotta. I'm like, oh, God. You know, like that, like, push into something I'm so allergic to. The sacral is my engine and my compass. Satisfaction versus frustration. So, like, frustration, I can be easily frustrated, and that's a sign that I'm sort of out of alignment or integrity. Like, I'm not listening to my gut, you know? So I'll get frustrated when I haven't had the balls to, like, say what I mean.

[Emily Hickey]

Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I bridge through others, so I naturally seek people and environments that bridge the gap. Like you. You bridge the gap for me, you know?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And the watch out there is like, don't over depend on others to feel whole. But I need, like, that. I need those connectors. I need the people who can sort of give me interesting stuff to respond to and then I can move the ball like further down the field.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, no, that's super interesting.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. That feels.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I don't know, I thought it was so cool. Like, I have to digest. I have a closed digestion, so I have to digest in private, intellectually.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. So how do you use this?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well, I'm just gonna. You know, I'm just getting back into it now that I was reading it. I was like researching it last night. But I think. I think it's like a framework to help, I guess, these things. I'm drawn to them because it's so complicated. Being alive, it's so confusing. And it's like, what is? You know, it's like a sit with someone who. Like Brad, who's a total atheist and a total realist, you know, and then, you know, I'll sit with someone who's like a beautiful Christian and believes like so much in that, and then sit with a friend who loves astrology or. There's so many different approaches that encompass so many different things, and I don't know, maybe it's up to each of us to find what's the framework that resonates most with us. But something like this, I don't know, that was a real unlock for me understanding that I'm not the person who's supposed to bang the doors down and like, that it makes sense that that feels so weird. And also that I really need to be alone to recharge, you know, because sometimes people are like, oh. Like. Because I'm. I've always felt like A very introverted extrovert. Like, I have to, like sometimes I'm an extrovert, but I need, I need to recharge so much after something like that. So I just think it's, and it's good to give yourself grace and it's also good to push yourself where, you know, I don't know, I find super.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, it's helpful.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What did it say about you?

[Emily Hickey]

It said I was a manifester and that the, I could have told you that the gotcha is workaholicism and being overly independent and so sometimes interesting. The people in your life don't feel brought along or involved. And so. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Which, did that ring true for you?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting and it kind of repackages a bunch of really cool things. I, I, it's complex. It's very complex. You need someone. I think, I think you do too.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I, I mean, I'm glad I bought the $47. Just a 200 page thing.

[Emily Hickey]

No, I need, I need like a coat. Is there like a person?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, there, there, there's a person who can do it. I mean, I, Yeah, I want to do it again, but, but it, it's, there's a, one of the big tenants of it is astrology. In your chart and this is like your thing.

[Emily Hickey]

No, I saw a lot of the concepts from astrology. It's neat because it's pulling concepts from astrology and the I Ching and a bunch of other things into it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So it's kind of cool. Aggregation, repackage.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. In a way that I've never seen it pulled together like that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

How do you use, what are the things that you use? Do you use. I know you use astrology.

[Emily Hickey]

I use astrology, but only again, I don't believe in it. Literally, you know, the reason I got hooked on it, I've actually always been kind of interested in it. But I like, what do you mean

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

you don't believe in it literally?

[Emily Hickey]

Well, I don't, I'm not like, okay, what's the transit of Jupiter? Should I, you know, do this thing on that day?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, right.

[Emily Hickey]

Nor do I believe that the constellations and the stars are influencing our fate or destiny. I don't believe that, you know, but I do believe that there's. Because it's been this compound. It's. These things are like the field of humanity. They've been worked on for. It's like yoga. It's like, how does this exist? You know? Like it's been worked on and added to for thousands of Years. And it just has this understanding and wisdom in it. And there's something about astrology and there's something just true about it. The reason I got. I read this. I sent you this book a long time ago, but I got obsessed with this book. I bought it as just a coffee table book because I needed a blue book. You know, it was like a decor piece.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You're like a hedge fund person. It's like, I need a blue painting on my wall.

[Emily Hickey]

No, but I. But I also. I was like, oh, this looks cool. It's a book from like the 1900s about astrology. I'm gonna. You know, it's actually something I actually wanted.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I didn't know that's how you got into it.

[Emily Hickey]

Well, I mean, I've had my chart read a million times, but I'd never. Not all astrologists are equal. Now I have two really good ones who I think are just like. They have their 10,000 hours and they have such a front seat to people and they start to do all this pattern recognition of like. Okay, that's how. Because it's complex. It's like, okay, Saturn is a planet that causes great suffering and it throws obstacles in your way. So that's always something. That's like the first thing I look at if I'm looking at a friend's chart. Your Saturn isn't home. We've talked about that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So what does that mean for me? My home life is a disaster?

[Emily Hickey]

Well, no,

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

my childhood was really fucked up.

[Emily Hickey]

Yes, it means, yeah, there was insecurity in the childhood that will cause you for the rest of your life. 1, 2. It's property accumulation and that you compensate for an emotional feeling by buying homes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Me, who.

[Emily Hickey]

But also, you know how important that is to you. But also, it's.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So, am I in the act of trying to correct that by.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, it's your soul's work. It's the soul's work. And that was like astrology in the Indian sense is the soul's work. It is the karmic cycles of. Okay, this is everything you blew last time around in your past lives. Here's what you have to make up for this time. You know, it's giving you a map to how to get the most out of this life from a soul's journey perspective. Western astrology is different. It's more like, these are the possibilities. It's a map of your potential. It's the, like. This one woman describes it as like the outside of a seed packet. You know what I mean? This is what you could become.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But not through the lens of reincarnation, because culturally we don't do that.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, but just through the lens of like this is kind of, this is your blueprint. How you play your cards is one thing, but this is here for you. So it emboldens people to live a bigger, fuller life because they feel like, oh, that's there for me.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Is that my main problem, that Saturn's in my home?

[Emily Hickey]

Well, by the way, and that's a dual meaning of home where it isn't just physical or family or whatever, but it's just establishing the security within yourself that maybe you didn't have as a kid.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

And by the way, this is just because I've researched your chart. I couldn't look at someone else's chart. And I just had spent a lot of time with your chart. We happened to start working together at a time when I was first becoming obsessed with this. And so you were my victim. Yeah, outside of myself. But it's a very cool place to have Saturn because it's the grindstone for how. It's the biggest obstacle, it's the struggle, but it's how you grow. It's the thing that gets you to an evolved state. So when you have that security within yourself, you're not always trying to fill it up with other things. It's a very evolved thing to have

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

achieved because like I definitely feel that I'm on that road. But sometimes like when I get knocked off my center, I definitely go back to a place internally that feels so wounded, raw. I don't even know how to, you know, like disoriented sort of, you know. And then it becomes my work again to create that safety for myself and like, you know, align with myself in such a strong way and which is really the seven year old. Right.

[Emily Hickey]

That's it. I mean, that's so interesting. Well, so your chart would say it also is like. So the coolest things about them I think are where is Saturn? And then what's the north, south, south, north node axis, which is where you're coming from and where you're going. And that's the one with you was creativity is where you're coming from. You came from obviously a very creative family and being seen publicly and things like that, to leadership of the group and that you finding wellness. Your chart has a ton of wellness in it. That would be the sixth house. You and I both actually have Venus in that house. But you also have Leo in it, which makes you better at it. I want to be as disciplined as you are. But I'm not. And you're way more punctual than I am. All your things are your sixth house strength. You have Leo, which is strength, and Venus, which is love, which is your health, your time management, all of that stuff is a huge strength of yours. And if you didn't have that, you would probably totally fall apart psychologically. That seems to be important scaffolding for you. So for anybody looking at their chart, they should immediately look at where is Saturn? Because that's gonna be the defining struggle that is gonna get me where I need to go.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's so interesting. I did not. Yeah, I've never understood that before. Okay, so that's the defining. And whatever house, it's in the house

[Emily Hickey]

is more important than the sign. So the house, you're in fourth house. And so that is family and home. I know. I mean, again, I don't love it, though.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, I'm serious.

[Emily Hickey]

No, I don't. I mean, it's like that first essay that I read that got me into this was this, like, super Brahmin Indian woman, educated in the west, whose mom dragged her back to India to have her kid. Because you couldn't have that. You had to name the child that you had the exact time of birth. And so then she started to look back at astrology and she described it as like being afraid of a ghost that you don't believe in. That's how I feel about it. I don't believe in it, but there's something about it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But how do you not believe in it? You clearly believe in it.

[Emily Hickey]

Well, no, I find it useful. It's metaphorical.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But isn't it only useful? I feel like. Believe in the construct, otherwise.

[Emily Hickey]

Well, it's useful and somehow true. So the metaphors of it. I mean, maybe if I had your chart. It's so different than me and my chart. I don't really know.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What's your chart? Give me the Cliff Notes.

[Emily Hickey]

So my chart is intellect and communication. So I have two grand trines. I mean, it's very, very unusual to have two equilateral triangles. And the points of all. Both of those triangles are in air signs, which is insights and communication and eloquence. And that for sure. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's amazing.

[Emily Hickey]

And my.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What's your main struggle?

[Emily Hickey]

Career.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Career, huh?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. Which is. I like. It's a. It's a long game. My chart is a long game. And that has certainly been. I mean, it's been.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, I guess. You know, it's like I. When I look Back at the stories that you've told about the kind of path of your career. And you also could have taken a completely different tact and done more creative stuff and like working in corporate, doing your own thing. How interesting.

[Emily Hickey]

Actually, no, it's been a nightmare. I wouldn't wish my worst enemy, but it has been, it's given me kind of the fodder, you know, to build this platform and talk to people. But I think it's very helpful to have someone like me have such a difficult path, you know, because it gives me a lot to share and talk about and it's where I've developed all my frameworks about business of like I just, I've had so many years of getting out of my own dumb way and like. Yeah. So that it rings really true to me and it also. My north south is coming from career. I have a lot going on in my career thing and then. But it goes to family which is that, that to me is the arc of my life is I work so hard to create the stability and the self esteem and the self esteem of the. The ability. You need resources to stay together as a family. And that's the unfortunate fact of the modern world. Otherwise it's this kid's here, this kid's there and nobody can bring them all together at the dude ranch. And you know what I mean? Like it takes. That was always my perception. So just the corrective like efforts of my life like really are to be successful, to model success for my kids and to restore the resource base to the family so that it can stay together. That's that it doesn't mean that it's true. It's my, my own perception.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And this is an area where I know AI is like a very dirty word right now, but where these LLMs are so interesting and helpful. If you, if you put in your birthplace and your birth time, like you can have the most incredible astrological reading and you can get into dialogue with, with the machine about it.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. And you know, I was doing that with it yesterday because I couldn't remember where all your planets were. But I had remembered that your moon was in Gemini and it told me the wrong thing. I was like, wait, isn't her moon? And it was like, oh wait, yeah, good catch. So just make sure. But I do think I've had a lot of fun deep diving with LLMs on just.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's cool with all this stuff. I don't know. I think of course it's like we have to deal with the environmental impact and all this looming uncertainty about what's going to happen. But as far as being a woman interested in personal development and health and wellness, like, I find it very, very enlightening and use and useful tool in those respects because it's like this incredible reflection and also thought partner and researcher and you know, for my human and personal development, it's been a really interesting tool.

[Emily Hickey]

I totally agree. Wait, so which of these do you. Do you use like numerology? Like, what are you.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I. Yes. So every year I have a numerology reading. Also my friend Amanda got me for my 50th birthday. So I had. Yes, I've had three now. So every summer I do a numerology reading with this woman, Janine, who lives in South Africa.

[Emily Hickey]

No, you sent her to me. Yes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And didn't you find it interesting?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, I did.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So I don't know. You know, it's like my friends sent me these things and I'm like, because I. You would, you would think that I would be super into all this stuff, but I'm actually, I actually haven't been historically.

[Emily Hickey]

Okay.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And. But when I was sent the human design and the numerology person, each as a 50th birthday present from two of my friends who are into the esoteric and into mediums and all that kind of thing, which I've never been that into. Like, I'm not drawn to it. Like, sometimes a friend will be like, you have to talk to this psychic. And I actually had one that was so uncanny that Brad is convinced she somehow, like, because I used. I. She didn't know my name or anything. And he's convinced that somehow she.

[Emily Hickey]

She dialed it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, but it's impossible because then I did it with a friend and handed my friend my cell phone. So even if there was some reverse number search or whatever, she never would have known who she was talking to. And it was like hair raising with this woman. It was so weird.

[Emily Hickey]

Well, it's not. It is possible. You know, it's that it's the horizontal fabric. It's. Anything is possible.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Can I tell you the weirdest thing? So Laurelin Jackson, who I interviewed for our GOOP Netflix show a million years ago, kind of on this subject. She. I had a reading with her before she worked on the show. And you know, she knew all kinds of stuff. Like, it was pretty bizarre. And we, you know, she was like, there's this number that you have with your dad and when you see this number, it is him sending, like, it is him sending you, you know, a message or his presence or whatever, which is the number. Okay. And it was sort of the mythology of the house, like, that had something to do with my dad. And so Lauralyn knew not the number, but she knew that there was this number associated. And she was like, you know, you have to believe that this is your dad.

[Emily Hickey]

He's really.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know, obviously, she really believes this. She's a psychic medium. You have to really believe it when you see that. That he's there. And I see the number all the time. And it'll be weird things, like, I'll zoom with a kid who, you know, for an interview or, you know, to do a recommendation to a college or something, who had on his sweatshirt. And I was like, what is that? You know, it'll just be like. Or I'll look at the clock. And it's like that kind of thing. But I'm like, is this real? Is this not real? Whatever. A couple of weeks ago, I went to Italy for the opening of the reopening of this beautiful hotel, the Villa San Michele. It's outside of Florence. And obviously I love Italy. I love to travel. And I had, like, the second to last dinner I ever had with my father was at this hotel. I didn't know he was dying. We were on this road trip for my 30th birthday. As you know, we're sitting there, it's this beautiful hotel, like, overlooking Florence. And, you know, his eyes kind of start rolling back in his head, and I'm like, this doesn't seem normal. He's like, I'm going to bed anyway. Within 48 hours, he was dead.

[Emily Hickey]

Yes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So I was invited to this reopening of this hotel. And I've been trying to, like, lean back a little bit into uncomfortable things instead of girding against them. Bracing, you know, because I feel like at this point in life, if something makes you uncomfortable or you have an aversion to it, that's just an opportunity for an exploration. And, like, there's something there, right? There's just something there. So I'm like, wow, I wonder if this is going to be hard for me to go back to this hotel, because it was so visceral to me. And I have so many, like, you know, this memories of my dad and him saying, like, I feel better. My fever broke. Let's go to the Uffizi, and all this kind of thing. So I arrived kind of late. My plane gets delayed in France and whatever. And I get to the hotel and it's late, and the manager's there, and I'm like, going up the hill, and I'm like, ooh. You know, I'm really feeling this, you know, And I'm, like, feeling him so much. And I'm like, am I going to be okay? You know, I get to the hotel. The guy couldn't be nicer. He walks me to my hotel room. It's a beautiful suite. And he's like, ah, okay. And here's your key. And he hands it to me.

[Emily Hickey]

No, that. I have goosebumps. That is crazy.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Burst into tears, like, burst into weeping. Like, it was the most nuts thing that has happened to me in such. I mean, I. I was, like, speechless. This poor guy. I was like, I'm so sorry that I'm trying to explain. I ate one of my last meals with my dad here, like, sobbing. And so I'm like, is that. How can that not be? How can that not be a sign?

[Emily Hickey]

I feel like it is. I mean, I don't think you. That's just unbelievable. I wish I had known you were going through that, by the way. But like, that. That is unbelievable.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Is that not so bizarre? Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

And I think especially around death, it's a very open time in life that weird things like that happen, and specifically in relation to death. And, like. No, that's insane.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I know. So anyway, that was a very long winded way of saying that. Like, there are things like that that to me, are inexplicable and then there are things that are a bit more concrete. Like the numerology framework, which is, I think also is based off the Chinese. Some kind of traditional Chinese. Is it.

[Emily Hickey]

It's from Pythagoras. It's based off of.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's from Pythagoras. Guys, guys.

[Emily Hickey]

So is it possible to be pretentious while talking about numerology? I just skated that light. I did it. So. Yeah, no, it has to do with.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What does it have to do with?

[Emily Hickey]

Well, you know, he was obviously a mathematician and believed in geometry. He was also an astrologist, but he.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Who was he? That's interesting. Yeah, everybody.

[Emily Hickey]

Galileo, like all those guys. There was no difference between astronomy and astrology. But he thought the numbers 1 through 9 were basically the basis of the entire structure of the universe. That everything could be explained mathematically or geometrically, and that there was a vibration to each number that had certain properties to it. So numerology got reinvented around 1900 or so. It got repackaged the same way that human design is kind of repackaging it. Repackaged it in A way that it could be. It kind of moved into the kind of new age world. It wasn't like, so here's your life path number. It wasn't packaged like that, but it was all the same concepts of, like, there's a certain vibration to each number, and that means this. And, you know, so now it's like, okay, here's your life path number. Right. And there's some other concepts that I can't remember. Yours was a. What was your. Your life path?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think mine's a nine.

[Emily Hickey]

You're a nine. Okay. Which is what? Seven.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Nine is completion.

[Emily Hickey]

That was your year.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, yeah, that was my year. Let's see.

[Emily Hickey]

I feel like you might have been a one.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Maybe I was. I'm gonna ask you know who.

[Emily Hickey]

It's your. So full name. So what it does for the. For anyone listening, I'm just gonna just

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

talk while I do some research. Okay, guys?

[Emily Hickey]

So it basically adds up the. It takes your full name and the number of letters, adds those up, and then it takes your birth date and adds those up, and it splices it in different ways and it comes out with something called your life path number, which is like, who you are in this life. It is a reincarnation thing. It's who you are in this life. And it is, while it was repackaged in 1900 or whatever to kind of move into this new age thing. It is based on very ancient, you know, antiquity. Again, 500, 600 BC is when Pythagoras. God.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's incredible.

[Emily Hickey]

I know. I did talk about LLM. I went on this deep dive on a plane the other day of like, just timelining out the great eras of thought. Like, okay, who was Beethoven was here? And these, like, what was happening all at the same time, you know, just to.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Because you're right, my life path number is 1.

[Emily Hickey]

1, which is.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Which is pioneer, initiator, the leader. People with a life path 1 are typically described as independent, driven, ambitious, and built for forging new paths rather than following established ones.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, that's pretty true.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yep.

[Emily Hickey]

Quite true.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What's your one?

[Emily Hickey]

Mine is 33. 6.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's your life number?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow. Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

Which I didn't talk to her much about that because we were. We were talking mostly about my mom. But it. But it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You're a master number in numerology.

[Emily Hickey]

It's a teacher. And it is basically the teacher. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Spiritually demanding of the master numbers that tracks the six. Underneath is the number of the nurturer, caretaker and harmonizer. So interesting. The shadow Side, you're said to struggle with martyrdom. I don't see that over giving. I see that taking on others, pain, perfectionism around their purpose. Yeah. And collapsing under the weight of feeling responsible. Wow. It's a very rare number, you know,

[Emily Hickey]

the woman had the same number, by the way.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, really?

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's strange. See, that's a weird coincidence. Well, or is it?

[Emily Hickey]

But you know what? It was helpful. She said, you know, there are helpful things about that. I remember talking to you about it right after that, and it's that whole thing of which year are you in?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

Yours was endings.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Mine, I was in. When I went. I was, like, going into a big Endings Year nine.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And it was very, very, very true. Like, there were. There was a lot of completions. It was like, I. I sold my house, I lost two dogs. Like, my kids went to college. You know, I, like, moved away from certain people, you know, it was like. There was a lot of goodbyes that year. It was kind of uncanny. But we all have a different year, right? Like, I'm in my mind. My personal year is a one.

[Emily Hickey]

This year we started. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

New beginnings.

[Emily Hickey]

New beginnings. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I think this stuff is so helpful. Is that it again? Or like, what that therapist did with the I Ching. They're trying to, okay, we have a blind spot or we're stuck or whatever. Like, let's get out of the rational mind and think about this from another direction and go stand on some other side of the room. And it helps you. I think there's just frameworks for introspection. And, like, so there is something Rorschachy about it of, like, okay, I see myself in that and I get it. And that's actually a really helpful way to think about it. Or maybe there is actually some. I don't know. There's just a lot of wisdom in these. No matter what you believe. I think. So that's helpful, right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That was helpful for me.

[Emily Hickey]

It's.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

For me. I really like the numerology piece. Like, I don't know. I find it orienting and I find it. I don't know. It's always nice, too, to just have. Even if it's bullshit, just to have, like, you know, a companion in giving you context for things, you know? I don't know. I agree, but I kind of don't think it's bullshit.

[Emily Hickey]

I don't think it's bullshit at all.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I mean, think about how. What else? Like, if Pythagoras, he's like, the father of geometry. Right. So it's not like he was a crackpot.

[Emily Hickey]

No. Many great names in antiquity were die hard astrologists. And what happened was that in the 17th century, Newtonian physics came along and codified a rule set around physical existence, like the law of gravity and things like that. And so astrology, that really is the point in history where astrology got stigmatized and pushed to. Okay, that's quack.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Emily Hickey]

But until then, the evolved point of view was that there was this property of life that something has to fill in the gaps. There's a property of life that is more elusive and, you know, interconnected. And I believe that it's such a

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

shame that we sort of like that's what happened in the age of Enlightenment. Right. All the rationality came.

[Emily Hickey]

Yes, yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And that in the era before, was it in romanticism or came right after?

[Emily Hickey]

So it was the reaction before the enlightenment would have been, I guess that was, I think it went Middle Ages, Renaissance, Enlightenment, Romanticism, yeah, Renaissance, I think.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. And that during that time there was still a very felt sense that like muses were real, they were physical things. And you know, there was all of this kind of very stark binary way of thinking came in with the Enlightenment. Right? Yeah, yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

Rationalism, I just think it's too narrow and I don't think it explains everything.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I recently did this kind of cool wellness weekend with a friend of mine for her birthday. And it was, there was like, it was kind of a workshop more than a wellness weekend, but, but it was, it was really, it was interesting. And it was two therapists and these two women who run this workshop and they, their approach was very manifestation oriented. You know, like get up and say a prayer and don't, don't pray to the universe. Pray to your. Because the universe is too broad. It's like too blunt of an instrument. Like you're. I even forget now what you're supposed to pray to, but this kind of absolute certainty around, you know, ask and ye shall receive. Like this, this power of manifestation. And you know, you hear people like they have these mood boards that they looked at every day or these posters that they were on their wall every day growing up. And then, you know, so what do we, what do we think about? I mean, I don't practice this, which is probably a miss, but what do you think about manifestation? Do you believe in it? Do you practice it?

[Emily Hickey]

I, I do believe in it and I do practice it. And I don't know why, because rationally I don't believe in it and I Don't hang on to it like that. I don't expect it. But. But I do think that. I think that there's a power to the visual imagination. I really do. There's some strange power to the. Like we think, we've talked about that. How Einstein visualized the theory of relativity pictured in his head and that's how he figured it out. You know, like there's something about the visual imagination I think can problem solve. And maybe it can. Maybe it is that frontal edge of how does brain matter suddenly produce these primitive googly eyes? Like you're going to look at that and. And. Or how does something suddenly produce sexual organs so that it can reproduce? There's something improvisational about this frontal edge of life. And if there is, I just think there is. I don't know what it is. Or that maybe visualizing something has some ability to create what it, you know, it's ordering it off Amazon, you know, it's pointing your arrow at it. I don't know. Or maybe it just puts you, it relaxes you so that things can flow better. I do think it can just simply be a relaxation thing of like that's what one of these astrologists, she's this 80 year old woman in England and Dyka Beg is her name and she is like the problem. She's been reading people's charts for years. It's a form of therapy. And she's like. The biggest problem in the human race is lack of patience. And people want to know what's going to happen right now they want to look around the corner, they want to get what they're going to get. It's the lack of patience. Patience. So maybe something about manifestation where you just visualize that you've already. You're already there or whatever it is.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know, it goes back to the rainmaker. It's like internally, if you find that wholeness and completeness, then what's meant to come will come.

[Emily Hickey]

Will come. Yeah, that's sort of how I think of it. I don't think that there. I'm not as far as there is some connection between subjective thought and objective reality that you're saying, what was that book?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That. Was it the Secret or the.

[Emily Hickey]

The Secret?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Was that it? That was the thing.

[Emily Hickey]

It's based off of a self help book from like 1900. Like those thoughts have been. Or even the 1800s. Those have been floating around for a long time. That's literally based on another book. And she just kind of repackaged it and commercialized it. But Whatever. It's helped so many people. But yeah, that's what that's all about.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What is the theory around how that works?

[Emily Hickey]

Well, I mean, this is where like, I think like a Joe Dispenza or like there are certain people who will say that quantum physics and the observer effect and things like that are. That there's a physical property that translates subjective thought to objective reality. That you can bake your own reality.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What's the mechanism by which that would work?

[Emily Hickey]

Well, what they would say. So things like the many worlds possibility, the observer effect, that if you look at it and you feel it, you create that of all the possibilities that could happen. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. It doesn't sound that far fetched actually, like, when you write.

[Emily Hickey]

I think it's been such a key tool for so many. Whether it's Oprah or Jim Carrey or Arnold Schwarzenegger or whoever. Like, it's a key tool for so many successful people.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And Jim Carrey does manifestation.

[Emily Hickey]

Well, he wrote himself a $10 million check. Oprah. There's a big Oprah episode about this. So he wrote himself like a $10 million check, put it in his wallet when he was like a broken, starving guy, you know, sleeping in this car. And like it was something like the date of the check was he got a $10 million movie. I don't know. Like, he attributes that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And it happened.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

On the date.

[Emily Hickey]

I don't remember that exactly. I don't remember. But it's something like that where there was some uncanny, like, to the day type thing. As part of what I do when I meditate, I will visualize very happy outcomes. Especially when I'm feeling totally like I'm about to detonate, you know, and frazzled.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So, yeah, I mean, I do think that any, any tool we have for pulling, like reminding ourselves, remembering to pull back out of the day to day minutia that has our nervous system so jacked. And to think about things in a much more broad way is helpful.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah. Why would you not? I think life is hard. And I think that there's a lot of chaos on the surface of life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And life is hard. Yeah. You know, no matter what it is hard, it just is, I think, for everybody. And there are different permutations of it, but it is.

[Emily Hickey]

And I think it's reassuring and helpful to think that there's some arc that, you know, you can kind of poke your head up a little bit and think more broadly or that there's something there helping and supporting you.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's nice, I think, so too. Okay, so which one of these things are you gonna what has piqued your interest? Like, what are you gonna look more into?

[Emily Hickey]

Well, I'm gonna find a human interest coach. Maybe you can. Maybe you got one for me.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Human. Curious about that. Human design.

[Emily Hickey]

Human design.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Emily Hickey]

Human design.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I have just the person.

[Emily Hickey]

Great.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I want to do it again, too.

[Emily Hickey]

Yeah, we'll check back in on that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay, we will. Emily. Thank you. Thank you, Gwyneth. Thanks for having me being here.

[Emily Hickey]

It's so much fun.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I always learn so much from you. Same as your Whatever in the whatever house says you're an excellent teacher and communicator.

[Emily Hickey]

Well, you're excellent at taking things into culture and leading us, so thank you.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.