A (3:13)

It's true. And you know, a lot of what you, what you wrote really resonates with me around that, around this kind of like abject strength around individuality and, you know, leaning into your. Yourself and your. And your own identity. And I, I find that. I find that really inspiring.

B (3:33)

Oh, cool.

A (3:35)

So I would love to start just a little bit with like, take me back to the beginning, because you started to write this book or these poems, I believe, in 1989, so at a young age and before your. Before you were discovered, before Hollywood discovered you. Yeah. So will you tell me a little bit about kind of, you know, I. Cause I imagine this idea of masculinity in Texas in, in the 80s, like, I can't imagine it sort of neatly folding into such a poetic heart.

B (4:12)

You know, Friday nights around the keg, at the tailgate.

A (4:16)

So can you tell me a little bit about your, Your upbringing and, and what it was like to hold this, this world of, of poetry and, and spirituality in your soul?

B (4:32)

I mean, you know, spiritually and religiously. We were a raised Methodist and it was. Go to church. The ritual of church every Sunday and grace before dinners and Methodist is not very fire and fire and brimstone. It's very much gratitude and be thankful for what you had and compound that. And you know, growing up, like probably most kids didn't listen that much in church, but it was the ritual that on Sunday you're, you're at the highest number two. And I don't care what you did Saturday night, we're up Sunday morning as a family going there in fellowship, which I thought was a wonderful practice and got a lot of ethics from it. Etc. I was very much an extrovert, but part of the reason, I mean, I was always. I was writing even at 16 and. But I would say part of the reason that, that I, that I continued to write more confidently in things like poems and prayers was part of the same reason I ended up. Ended up in Hollywood and saying I wanted to be in the storytelling business in front of the camera. Those were not, you know, poetry and art and storytelling were not on the front line of expectations of my family growing up. You know, I remember when I called my dad to say I don't want to go to law school, I want to go to film school. I thought he was going to go, bullshit. That's, that's a hobby. You can do that on Saturdays. But that's not a real job. In hindsight, he didn't, he actually said, don't half ass it. So I also had a friend that I made there, Rob Bendler, a Jewish friend of mine who was not in the popular groups. And I was, I was student council. I was an athlete. I was kind of a renaissance guy who was buddies with all kinds of different walks of life in school at the same time. I was an extrovert and I was a partier. And Friday night it was like, hey, man, get the keg, go get the tailgate, you know, chase the girls, let's have a great time. My buddy Rob was not that. So when we became friends in art class, he introduced me to, hey, you want to come to my place on Saturday night and we'll watch a movie? I was like, watch a movie on Saturday night? So he would come with me on Friday, I'd bring him out, and then on Saturday we go to his place and talk about life and watch a movie and talk about art and stuff. So he was actually the one who gave me the confidence to even say, I want to go to film school or what if I could I audition for that part. So part and parcel, that was around the same time that I became more confident to write poems or prayers or love songs and things like that. I then took a year off as an exchange student in Australia, which was a wild and lonely, lost looking and wobbly year. And when I was my only friend I had, I wrote to myself, I was losing my mind. But I, you know, I was writing 14 page letters to myself with way too many adjectives and adverbs. And I was returning letters to myself of 15 pages to outdo my original letter to myself. So I was. It was a Socratic dialogue and it was a way to cope, it was a way to heal, it was a way to get it out on a page. Trying to figure out the existential why questions. What the hell's going on? Is there meaning in this life? Am I stuck here? No, you're not. Trust that if you go through this, there's a, there's a golden pot on the other side. Trust that, Matthew. It gave me resilience and strength and so I continued to write.

A (8:03)

So where did that come from? Do you think this. You know, because most teenagers, you know, they can default to, you Know, woe is me. I'm. I'm lonely. I'm in a foreign country. And where do you think that comes from? This. This idea that pain is. Can be a teacher and.

B (8:26)

Good question. I mean, look, we were raised to be very resilient. I mean, get up, dust yourself off. You. You'd quit. Quit asking me for a new pair of shoes. I'm going to introduce you to the kid with no feet. Oh, shit. Okay. You know, it was. It was baseline gratitude. You know, don't come in here to breakfast until you're ready to see the rose in the vase instead of the dust in the table. Get your ass back in bed. It was very baseline gratitude from my mother, especially now. The challenge. And I think one of the. One of the problems with. With that kind of resilience is you. You become a repeat offender of the same problem. You step in the same pile of shit around the same term because you never stop to go, well, hang on a second. Let me have a look here. Why am I feeling this way? Let me, Let me, Let me, Let me get objective about why do I keep tripping on the same damn pothole every time around the bend? And if you just get up and dust yourself off and keep going, you never stop to look, right? So I would say I've been a repeat offender. At the same time, I've got great resilience. I also honestly believed that the trials and the tribulation that I was in, when I was lost in that year, I started to gain a little bit of almost confidence and sort of reverence for the fact that, oh, the longer this goes, the greater the reward on the other side. I'll endure this. And I started to get kind of. My ego got even full of like, okay, to an extent where I know when I came back, in the reverse culture shock of coming back to America, if people and friends wanted to talk about just, hey, the weather or partying, I would almost like, what kind of conversation is that? I was almost. I was too serious. Almost. I was. I had been in the trenches, you know, and it was like I. I had skipped and I had to. Had to find my sense of humor again to actually come back and enjoy small talk for quite a bit of time. When I came back, I think it came from how I was raised. I think it also came from whatever inherent faith I had that I think resistance and a little discomfort and sweat equity was always kind of bred into me to be like, ah, that's how you earn it. The experience. That's how you'll remember it. That's how it'll be part of your lineage. You know, I didn't in school, I made good grades, but, you know, I don't remember how the Liberty Bell cracked, but I passed that test. Life's experiences where I got burned or hurt or wonder, that's what I remember. And my parents were pretty, I guess, courageous on the height of the limbs they would let us walk out on to fall from and go there. Now you understand they would not. The ones that would go, no, no, no, come down, come down. They're like, no, no, no, go ahead. You know, so I guess it was part of my how I learned how what I understood about learning lessons. And I will say this, Gwyneth, it, it, like I said, it overcompensated later for me in life. When I became successful in Hollywood, I didn't, wasn't how to deal with it was, whoa. When it was easy street, when it was champagne and caviar and red carpets and I love yous, I like, I like felt like I needed to like trip myself and like, you know, like fall down and screw the thing up. You know, when it was easy, obviously later on I learned, and I'm still learning that, no, when it's easy, enjoy the downhill because the uphill will be coming anyway. You don't have to treat yourself running downhill.

A (11:49)

Do you think that you, when everything was really easy in Hollywood, do you think that that was, you know, do you think you, you changed? Do you think, you know, you had a period of, you know, when thing, when it was easy street, like things?

B (12:05)

Yeah, yeah, I, I, I, I let myself off the hook for things. Yeah, I, I rode, I still engaged. I didn't work any less hard. I wasn't any less committed. But it's that, it's that double edged sword with gratitude we were talking about. You got, you know, yes, be thankful, but you got to be more than just happy to be here. You know what I mean? And I think, you know, I had such a, you know, when I first got successful in Hollywood, I was like, had a little bit of whatever it's called. The imposter said, why me? Yeah, well, oh my gosh, this amount, I, I just made 48, 5 schedule F. They're paying me $48,500 to go play baseball for 11 weeks. Is that legal? You know what mean? You know what I mean is what deserve this? Do you know what I mean?

A (12:51)

Yeah.

B (12:52)

So I've, it got to a, a point where I called it on myself. I said, look, you got to be less impressed and more involved, McConaughey. And that came to me after my father died. It was something. 21.

A (13:09)

I'm sorry.

B (13:11)

21. And the gift from that was, whatever. I lost my crutch. I lost the. The person in my life that was above law, that was above religion, that would have my back. If it was really came down to it. I knew someone had, and that person was gone. So it was like, okay, Matthew, you better man up. You better quit acting like one and be one and quit talking about what you think you ought to do and start doing it now. That was a process for. And still is. But that, you know, that. That took a while, but become less impressed and more involved. So with my work and with success, as much as I was thankful and going, like, I mean, what else do you want? This is more than you ever imagined, as you know, you got to get hopefully past that, look it in the eye and go, well, I don't know. Just because I had. Just because I can do I want to. And you got to get kind of. It's more mature. You got to be more mature and start discerning, well, okay, I may have a lot. I may have more than on most people, but is it what I want? And then you start saying no to things that are a great paycheck but not their success, but they're not profit. You know what I mean? You start going no to things when you go like, I'm just feel like I'm going in circles here. It's a great circle. It's a high. It's a high class problem that I'm having, but I don't. I don't feel like I'm growing. And so that led to, you know, me taking a couple of years off.

A (14:46)

Yeah. Which is so. Which is an interesting parallel that we have as well, because I really hit a wall and took a bunch of years off. And my, the, the birth of my first child really precipitated that. And I think maybe because I'm a woman, it was sort of the first time I felt like I had permission to stop and slow down, stop, you know, know, running so fast towards a goal. But it seems like you kind of looked at the sum of your career and had some deep philosophical questions around the kind of art you were making. Is that, am I projecting or.

B (15:24)

No, no, you're not. You're projecting, but you're right on 100%. And I don't think it's coincidentally that it was at the time when Camilla was Pregnant with our first child. Right. I mean, there's a real revelation, you know, of having a first child, that all of a sudden everything else becomes number two, probably in the three hole. And all of a sudden, acting became like third thing that was giving me identity, you know? So I was looking at my life and how vital it was, how much, how. How much. The ceiling of my joy was so high. The basement of my anger and rage and pain was so low. It was wider, it was tal. Deeper. Real life was dramatic. And I got a child coming in. I've got the woman I love. The tears are wetter, everything. And then I was, look, doing the rom coms, which are a compressed frequency of emotions. They're supposed to be buoyant. They bounce from cloud to cloud. If you drop anchor in a rom com, you sink the ship. Whoa, don't go there. You know what I mean? So that frequency, I was like, ah, my life is so much more vital than my work. And I remember looking in the mirror going, well, congratulations, McConaughey. Glad it's not the other way around. But is there a way that I can get my work to challenge the vitality of my life? And then I was like, that would be in dramas. Well, I was saying, no, thank you.

A (16:50)

Like, was that hard to sort of, you know, because I do think, like, you touched on it before. People like you in a box. Right. And. And everybody was so comfortable with you as, like, this hilarious, affable, you know, sexiest man alive guy. So were you. Were you concerned about trying to shift that how you were perceived?

B (17:13)

Yes, I took a big risk and I was trying to, you know, I was offering found dramas I wanted to do and was offering studios massive pay cuts. They're, like, going, no, thank you. Just stay in your lane there, bud. We're doing good here with the rom coms, man. They cost 35. We're making 50. You're making all this. All this stuff. It was working. And so because I couldn't do what I wanted to do, I said, well, look, I'm going to stop doing what I'm doing now. What did I have going for me? I'm in love. Camilla's pregnant, got this coming. So that helped me stay a little grounded. Now, I didn't know how long this period of stepping out was going to take or when Hollywood and if Hollywood was going to call back. And, you know, after I remember calling my agent, Jim Tom, I said, jim, I don't want to do any more rom coms or action comedies. He goes, okay, And I go, what do you mean, okay? You just said it like real quick. I said, dude, I'm bringing in a nice dime on the dollar to the agency. What are you going to say Monday morning to the bosses? I mean, I've been, I've been paying this. And he goes, no, no, no. I work for you, not them. I said, okay, we'll set up. I need, I need you to be my, my guard here because I'm saying no. And I need to get the signal out to Hollywood that I'm not doing any more of the rom com. That's all that came in. I said no. I said no. I said no. I said no. I didn't remember calling after six months. And he goes, matthew, I haven't even heard your name in three months. So I'm starting to think, did I just write myself a one way ticket out of Hollywood? Here, babe. And I'll tell you this story. I don't know if you've heard it or not. I think it's worth telling again and I think you'll know what I mean. I had this offer come in after about a year. It was an action comedy, good script, big franchise thing. Came in with an $8 million offer. I said, no, thank you. Came back at a $10 million offer. I said, no, thank you. Came back at a 12 million dollar offer. No, thank you. Came back at a 14.5 million dollars offer. I said, let me read that again. Hey. And when it was, it was the same words as that 8 million dollar offer script, but it was better.

A (19:25)

Right.

B (19:26)

I could see myself, this could work. I might be able to. I ultimately said no, though.

A (19:32)

Wow.

B (19:33)

And I think that no had a reverberation in Hollywood of, oh, McConaughey's not bluffing. I don't know what he's doing, but he's playing, he's playing offense on something. You know, back to what we were talking about earlier, I don't know if we were on camera or not, about how I was talking about your affirming choices of identity. You. That becomes attractive when it's not like someone's receding. No. Oh, what's he doing? Well, cut to 20 months total. And after saying no to that, I think that became a new novel. Good idea. Well, what about him and Lincoln Lawyer? What about killer Joe McConaughey? Yeah. Oh, well, we haven't seen him. We don't know where he's been for two years. He hasn't been in our living room, in our theater, in a rom com. We haven't seen him on the beach in People magazine in another shirtless shot looking like he's living a Rom com 2 or where is he? And I think the anonymity that I got in the 20 years, all of a sudden I became like, huh, that'd be an interesting idea for a dramatic role. And then that's when they started coming and I just ferociously said yes and charged.

A (20:41)

Right.

B (20:42)

But I will say those 20 months, as much as I had Camilla and newborn it was, it was wobbly. I mean I thought of other vocations. I thought of high school teacher, nature guide, going back to law school and you know, the days got long. I did suffer for some significance, but I think I wrote probably some of these, some of these poems and prayers along that way in that two years because I needed them.

A (21:08)

And did you find yourself sort of hearkening back to your days in Australia and what you learned from that unmoored time?

B (21:17)

Interesting. I think so. I mean I never as hard as maintaining the decision was it was non negotiable. I was never going back. I remember over tears when I decided to make the decision of all right, I'm stepping out, I'm not doing this. I remember the tears with Camilla and her and I sitting there and praying and just letting it out till three in the morning. And then once the decision was made, there's not, we never was never going back. There was, it was not because we knew, we even talked about this that this goes on for a while. I don't know how long you're going to be in the desert here. You're going to be tempted to go back. We decisions made. So we never went back. So because it was non negotiable does not leaving a parachute not, you know, it does help us endure. I think in these times when you go I don't have the option, I'm not giving myself an option to go, to go back. It was like the very much like the Australian I'm not giving. I had people were like, you could go back, you can fly home. I said no. I took his hand before I left and I said I'm going the full year. Yeah, but you didn't know this was going to happen and you know it was going to be this hard. No, no, no. Like my word meant something. And spiritually with the decision to step out of Hollywood with Camilla and I, it meant something and it was, it was done. So there was never a question of going, of going back and going okay, I can see I tried it out. I'M back. What's the wrong. You know,

A (23:00)

Did you ever, like. Were you a student of the Stoics or anything? Like. I'm just trying to.

B (23:08)

Not, not directly, no. I've been, I've been asked that before.

A (23:15)

Okay. I was. Yeah. Because they're, they're. And, and some things are just organic and come out of your own DNA and wisdom and life experience. But there's a, there's a real. There, there's a calling back to a lot of the, the stoic philosophies, outlook.

B (23:32)

Yeah. I mean, Emerson, Solomon, Meister Eckhart, there was all. I mean, I think there's always been a certain understanding I've felt, even living in excess that, that minimalism and hunger and thirst and not in, in keeping away from the full satiation mentally and spiritually is good, you know, that, that. Because then. Because. And I think that's part of where just keep living comes for me. Then I'm always on the come. Then there's always, then we're always on the approach.

A (24:16)

Yeah.

B (24:16)

You know, and, and I don't, I don't succeed at it all the time. There's times look around and go, I'm. I'm full all over. Well, do I. Does that mean I'm getting complacent or does that mean I need to get something out of my life? You know, that's, that's taken up room in my day, in my life that I don't need, but on the approach I love, then life feels like a verb, then relationships feel like a verb, then the journey feels like it, you know, because if I feel like I get, if I've landed almost with anything relational, art, career, spiritually, if I feel like I've landed, if I ever feel the tada, well, I've been going, oh, well, you're being lazy because there ain't no tada. You know what I mean? Think a little higher, take the roof off, Fly a little closer to the sun. It ain't the wax ain't near melting yet. You may think it is, you got a lot further to go.

A (25:21)

One of the things I really loved reading about was how you hold marriage with such reverence and this idea of by your definition, what it means to be a good husband. And part of this is this agreement between the two of you. It seems that just as you say, there is no finish line, there's no exhale, there's a deep acknowledgement of the road and all of the things that life brings. So I guess there's what strikes me so much is the, is the innate wisdom that you bring to all of these aspects of your life. And is Camilla. She must be. I mean, just by very. I really believe that. And maybe this is like weird or heteronormative or old fashioned, but I really believe that like a woman really helps like draw the energy for the man in the house and help set the course for the man. And so I'm wondering like, well, first of all, how did you two meet? And did you. Is, is it was this like a deep resonance that you felt with her very quickly?

B (26:34)

I'll tell you the story. It's a good one. So at the time I was very healthily single. Okay.

A (26:48)

Getting it out of your system.

B (26:50)

Yeah. And, and, and, and, and, and like I say in, in, in a, in a, in a healthy way, I was taking care of myself. I, but I, I was feeling about six months before I was feeling the clock tick. I'm like, I want to find her. And you see when, when, when, when a man's doing that, I mean it's like every red light, who's next to me in the produce section, who's getting over there. It's like you're, you know, we go to a party, I come to your place, you're going to be introducing people. I'm like, you know, you're on the, you're hunt measuring to the one here. Is that not very, not, not, not very attractive thing to be. When you're always looking, you're kind of, you see someone out of their space, you know what I mean? And looking like to be. Find some completion form. And I remember I had a, had a, at a wonderful wild dream. I can tell it because I wrote about it in the, in the book. But I was an 88 year old bachelor in my wheelchair and into my property which was a horseshoe gravel driveway with St. Augustine yard. I remember this very good. The St. Augustine grass was overgrown and on purpose and cars were coming in in a procession. And in each one a woman would get out. When two kids would get out, one would get out, two kids would come out and all the kids gathered around me, 88 of them and 44 women. And they were the mothers of all my children. And I was not married. And it was a beautiful celebration and all the kids gathered and all the mothers were getting along and it was a celebration of my birthday and took a picture and I woke up and it was a beautiful dream. It wasn't a nightmare.

A (28:49)

Okay.

B (28:50)

It was a beautiful dream. And that I remember waking up and laying in bed going, what does that mean? And what I heard and understood was, it's okay, Matthew, don't, don't press to try to find the one to marry. If you end up in 88 year Bachelor, well, that's what you end up. But, but don't quit pressing.

A (29:12)

It's okay for Leonardo DiCaprio, you know,

B (29:16)

yeah, he's doing fine, you know, but that, that dream and the what the grace that I got from the dream gave me, it took away that looking around the corner, where is she? At the produce section at the party at the red light. And I was like, okay, I'm not racing its time. So I now settle into myself and as you know, you know, it's the right time for us and it's the right person. Sometimes we probably may have met the right person. It wasn't the right time for us, you know, sometimes it was the right time for us. We never met the right person. I was, I was very settled in myself. I go out to a club with my friends on Sunset. I'm sitting there mixing margaritas at the table. Music's going. I've had just enough tequila in me to see clearly, if you know what I mean. This shape, caramel shoulders with hot enough in the club to have just a bit of almost dew on a little bit of morning dew on the shoulders with the turquoise trap was moving right to left across my eyeline about 20ft in front of me. And her head was not even bobbing. It was like just floating. And I remember looking going, what is that? And I stood up. I didn't say, who is that? I said, what is that? And I got up and I wanted. She went and sat down next to two and I started to wave, like trying to get her attention. And as I'm waving, I hear my mom and my 12 year old ear going, get your ass up, boy. This is not the kind of woman you wave across the damn room, boy. So I go over and she's there with two friends. And it hits me. Boom. Invite them both, all three over. Which I did, which was the gentlemanly thing to do, which meant she said, no, y' all stay, I'll go alone. She comes over, I mix a margarita, the music's blaring. I spoke better Spanish that night and understood Portuguese better that night than I ever have in my life. And all of a sudden my buddy comes up, goes, man, we got to go, it's 2:30. I said, okay, would you like to come home? We're all going back to my house for A drink. I come home. She says, no, no, no, no, no. But nice to meet you. I said, I'll walk you to your car. We go to her car. Where is it it's been to. Would you like a ride home with. With us? Come have a drink, and my driver will take you home when you're ready to go. Okay.

A (31:45)

She knew. Did she know who you were?

B (31:47)

She. Yes. Yeah, she did. She did. She did. And she tells you this day. She was like. Because she. For whatever reason. Anyway, we go have. We have a drink at my place. Time to go. I'll walk her out to my. For My driver can take her. My driver had left.

A (32:05)

No.

B (32:05)

Yes.

A (32:06)

And this is pre Uber, right?

B (32:08)

A pre Uber. Oh, this pre Uber. So now we're gonna call. Call cab. Well, damn it. You know how it is in those Hollywood Hills sometimes, man. The reception's no good, so she's stuck. Yay. Take that. Take the extra bedroom down at the end of the hallway upstairs. Great. She does. I got kicked out of that room twice trying to go down there later that night.

A (32:33)

I love it.

B (32:33)

And the next morning, I'm the last one to get up. It's 10:45 in the morning, and I come down this spiral staircase, and I can hear this chatter at the breakfast bar in the. In the. In the kitchen. And it's this beautiful kind of chatter of old trend, people overlapping. There's innuendo. There's already laughs at jokes that were told an hour before, you know, and everyone's laughing, talking over each other, and it sounds like people have known each other for years, decades. As I get to the bottom stairs, I look and I see that kitchen table, and there's those same. Those same shoulders with that turquoise dress. She's wearing the same dress as last night. This is another great plus to me. I'm like, oh, this. This is. This is not a little girl. This is not like, oh, I'm doing a walk of shame because I'm wearing the same thing last night. No, this is where I ended up. This is the clothes I have, and this is the dress I'm wearing. I'm wearing it now. She's holding court with my two buddies who are sitting there drinking honest juice with their shirts off, hung over, and they're laughing and going on like they've known each other for decades. I'm like, wow, beautiful. We get there, then I decide I'm gonna. I gonna take her to the place where her car is impounded. It's an hour away. I put on this album of this reggae artist I had produced called Mishka. We put it on, drove the hour. The album take is an hour long. We didn't say one word in between the songs. Didn't have any of that uncomfortable silence where, oh, I feel like I got to fill the gap. It was a wonderful science just to be in the presence of each other, listening to this music and listening to this album. We show up, we get her car. I asked for her number. She gives it to me. She comes in down for a kiss. I scoot over, caught about an eighth of an inch of a lip there. It felt good. I asked her out the next round that night. She couldn't. Ask her the next night. She said she couldn't. I said, why? She goes, it's my dad's birthday. I'm like, yes, family. She has dignity of family.

A (34:26)

Yes.

B (34:28)

Okay. So I kept asking her out, and finally, about a week later, she said yes. And that's the only woman that I've dated, slept with, and wanted to wake up next to for the last 19 years.

A (34:39)

Oh, my goodness.

B (34:41)

So that journey to. That. Would I have seen her? Would I have had the confidence to see? Because everything I saw on that walk, when she moved across the room, I saw that dignity. I saw that sense of. She was. She wasn't for rent in any relational way. I mean, this was the one. I was like, oh, okay. She had history on her shoulders. Everything that I saw in that image and that impression in that haze 20ft away that the amount of tequila I'd had, everything turned out to be true. When you. When you. When we zoomed into the closeup and as the relationship got more intimate, those things turned out to be true.

A (35:25)

That is so beautiful. 19 years is, you know, it's a long time. And in Hollywood years, it's like, you know,

B (35:35)

yeah, guess.

A (35:37)

So what is the love you never question axiom that you two have? What does that mean?

B (35:48)

Well, like anybody in any couples, sometimes one's going faster than the other. Sometimes one feels like they're sacrificing more than the other. We. And we grow so at the same time, where we want and love and are there for that inherent person that I saw move across the room that night, who she is and how and what it is. She fell in love with me about why we still want that. And that's what we believe in. We grow, there are amendments. We mature. Sometimes we go a little backwards somewhere, and sometimes we go a little forward somewhere. We find new things, new interests, new hobbies, make new decisions. So. But as long as that core. It's the core. It's the core. The very first thing I saw before I ever saw, ever spoke to her, first thing I saw in my mind, in the heart when she moved across the room is what I still love about her and what she still is. It's new. She's. You know, there, there's, there's. You have children, you have a family, you get older. Yeah, there's the new, new challenges. But I don't think we've ever lost sight or ever not been able to show each other what we saw on each other that night, what I saw across the room, what we understood in each other in the language of love. When I understood Portuguese and better than I still do now, and I spoke the best Spanish I've ever spoken. You know what I mean? And that whatever that was, I knew right then that this was not. That this was if, if, If I got fortunate enough to go spend more time with her. This was not a fling. I knew right then. And I, I don't know if she did. I don't know, maybe it took her longer to see who I was, to trust who I was. But that lights, that light's never gone out any for, for either one of us and how we see each other and who we expect to be for the other. Yeah, we have a, it's an inherent trust there. And even in times where it's, it's, it's, it's harder or we're missing and ships sailing past each other in the night, just trust that. Oh, well, let's not, let's, you know, as, you know, relationships take work and so where do you sit there and just not make anything. It's not a big deal, Just let it slide. And when you go, no, we gotta, we gotta do some maintenance here, we gotta check in because we're. Chassis's a little loose, you know, and if you don't check in, you can look up and it can be a mess and line. We have, we have friends that you look around, you go like, boy, they didn't, they didn't do maintenance along the way. And now look, they look up, you go, oh, what happened? And we, I think we do a pretty good job and thankful to her because she, she instigates it most of the time of the, the maintenance check ins, you know, for us that we never get too far off even though we're trying to try new things and you know, entrepreneurial relationship and I've got things and she's got things and we Got three kids. And that becomes another, another thing where you can go and that's another thing to, to, to, to watch. What I'm still learning to watch is you get children and those are the dependents. They need you. You know what I mean? And you sometimes. I can sometimes go, well, Camilla will be fine, but the kids need. You know what I mean? And that you gotta, you gotta watch

A (39:28)

and go and not totally orienting around that as first priority all the time.

B (39:35)

Right? Yeah.

A (39:38)

How, how do you think that having this beautiful substantive marriage is like a key pillar in your life in terms of your growth, your success, your introspection?

B (39:54)

Yes. Look her. There are ways I don't even understand that her coming to my life help. But I look back and if I do the math, it's kind of obvious the math is there and if I don't see it, I got plenty of friends that damn, she'll remind me of it, you know? Yeah. A true, A true sense of true confidence, being stable, being again of, of something beautiful happens, I think in our, in our life when we have, when we find that kind of relationship or even especially and also when we have children like we saying, say I think I got better at my career, better at my job when I found the woman I loved, Camila, and we had children. Why? Well, all of a sudden the career became in the three hole of priorities. Yeah. Now that doesn't mean I, I respected it less. It just meant it wasn't my full on identity.

A (40:51)

Right.

B (40:52)

And boy, when it's number one and we're young and that's our identity, you can need it too much and miss the magic. There's a. There's a form of taking something too seriously where it can sort of, you know, not allow us to, to be our. The most we can at it. You know, it's part of who I am, but it's not my identity. I have things that I mean, I trust and I, I write about this in green. Like the one thing I ever knew that I wanted to be was a father.

A (41:20)

Right.

B (41:21)

You know, when I was meeting my dad's friends and I giving them yes sirs. I remembered 8 years old in the parking lot at Oak Forest Country Club. These two men I met and the sun was coming down my eyes and had shades and I remembered the common denominator of all the men I'd met and shook their hands. They were fathers. Ah, that success, that's when you've made it. That was the definition in my mind and I still hold on to that to A great extent.

A (41:47)

What kind of father are you?

B (41:50)

What kind of father am I? I am. I kind of. To give you a little. These are not political terms, but I would say conservative, early liberal, late, meaning, like, let's learn our literacy and our math and our manners and. And our respect.

A (42:09)

Build a foundation.

B (42:10)

Build the foundation and the expectations within the family. And we are a team. And I'm sorry. No, we're not. We're not equals yet. No. And you know, that's it. We've got to maintain. We've got to earn these things. Part of it is going to be there for you. Part of it's going to be, watch me. Part of it's going to be. Watch how your mother and I treat each other. And that's how you. That's how you treat someone in your life that you. That you hopefully can end up loving and caring about. Part of it will be what we talked about earlier. No, you are not invited right now. This is your other nice time and respect that. Go entertain yourself. You know what I mean? I am coming now with teenagers, which I think is going to be my honey. Oh. As a Dad, I think 1. I'm really enjoying it because I don't have to edit my good stories as much anymore.

A (43:04)

No, it's true.

B (43:05)

You know what I mean? You can come. They're like, you did, like. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Like, damn. Okay. But I'm. I didn't know that there was this bridge between. Because of my father, there's parenthood and then there's friendship. I think they think there's a time to hold off the friendship. I know too many parents, kids that go, like my parents too much, my friend, too early. I need a parent. And I didn't know there was this bridge that I'm finding now of being a big brother on the way to being a friend. And so there's things that they fundamentally understand that I don't have to teach them anymore. They don't need to see the example anymore. But I can be less judgmental as hope. Well, let me tell you, this is your debt. And I can be more. Just listen and put a hand on the back and go, damn it. I know it. Man, that sucks. A breakup, a heartbreak, something they wanted, didn't get, or how to get something they want, how to hustle for it. I can kind of go, well, check this out. It's a little more of a hand on the back, arm around them going, me too. I know what you're talking about. A little More of a big brother. And it's a bridge between fatherhood and friendship that I didn't know was there.

A (44:28)

Could you. Do you have the book with you?

B (44:31)

Yeah, I do.

A (44:33)

Would you read me? You can. You can pick. You can pick to a random page. You can read the first one you wrote when you were 18.

B (44:47)

That one's funny. Didn't mean to be funny. Yeah, okay, I'll read this one. I'll read. This is. Let's read that one from, From. This is when I'm 18 again in Australia, losing my mind. I've become vegetarian. Didn't know how to be a vegetarian. Was eating a head of iceberg lettuce with ketchup on it. I was running six miles a day. I believe I'm going to be a again. I didn't think anything was wrong with me, but these are disciplines I was putting in myself to achieve each day. Just to give me a sense of, okay, I conversed something because I was.

A (45:21)

And why was it so bad? Just, just like.

B (45:25)

So it was a. It's a wonderful story that I write in Greenlights, but it was, it was. I, we were gonna. I was gonna be. I was written that I was gonna go stay with the family and live on the outskirts of Sydney. Well, the outskirts of Sydney ended up being about three and a half hours away in a little town called Warnerville, population 305, way out. And the, the, the. The. I was a bit of. The. The Dooleys, the. The founders. A bit of the family's like, prized possession, the toy. And, and, and they had gone back. Like I graduated high school, I was free. I mean, I made my scrap, made my grades, I got money in my back pocket. I've had a job, I got a car, I got a full handicap, man. I got a girlfriend, things are rolling. I got no curfew. Let's go. And all of a sudden they wanted me in at like 10. And if there's a girl I wanted to go out with, they need to interview her. I didn't have a car, I didn't have friends, I didn't have golf clubs, I didn't have cash in my pocket. I had a curfew, so. And this family was just odd. There was a bit of. I felt that I was feeling a bit of coveted. There was a bit of. We'd like you to call us mom and pop. Whoa.

A (46:43)

Okay.

B (46:44)

Yeah. Okay, so. It's beautiful black comedy. Okay, so I'm. I'm at this point after eating at 5pm, finishing at 5:30 and then doing the dishes each night. I am trying to get back to my room to go take a bath every night just so I can have some solo time with me. And this solo time, I'm hopping in the bathtub, I'm reading Lord Byron, okay? And U2's Rattle and Hum, as well as a Maxi Priest album were my two friends in my Walkman earphones. And I would read Lord Byron, listen to YouTube's Rall and Hum and work one out pretty much six nights a week. But again, nothing was wrong with me. I was cool. I was good, okay? But this was my nightly ritual. And I'm writing things and then I'm writing things like this, okay? Soil. What wretched extent is our life bowed to today? When will it end? When shall it begin? Our endless judgments that brandish the sin ignorant minds of the fortunate man blind of the fate shaping every land Drifting day by day upon selfish wings of his past Only seeking the wines of his narrow minded cast Love provide us a chance to cure this social disease or excessive infections have we never to believe as biased past rule unfortunate futures Living adversities of both heaven and hell why the flame reaches higher is so hard to tell. No cell, no home, city, state nor land the untold doom bleeds throughout every hand the shrouded wounds sweat the pain unknown of so many premier as kings upon their throne Self destruction of the blind awaits in the range the naive dwelling of the endless Unchanged the unaware Return to the palace of the benighted I too shall reunite Primarily delighted But one thing infallibly I shall never remain the same. Whoa. Right.

A (49:12)

But that's incredible.

B (49:14)

I mean, it was. I was talking about the Mendasses of. Of the world. And. And at the end, I'm saying I'm gonna go back doing it too, but I'm gonna be changed. And I was at 4, I was a, you know, pretty self serious young dude and had a lot on my mind. And again, thinking my calling was to go become a monk, I was calling out what I call in society. And I was outside of America for the first time looking back and you know, when you leave. What? You know, you kind of look back and you kind of call bullshit because you see it in a different way.

A (49:44)

Right.

B (49:45)

And yeah, I mean, that is incredible.

A (49:48)

Matthew. My God.

B (49:50)

I think I had a. I think I had a thesaurus. Pretty handy though, because I don't know what infallibly meant then and I don't know what it means now, but at the time, that amount of syllables and that advert Impressed me. But I was writing that. That's me at 18. That's, that's on actually that was written. Check this out. This is what I was doing. Yeah. 1189. That's New Year's Day Eve.

A (50:22)

Okay. That's incredible. So I know, I can see how you think it's funny. It's actually like kind of mind blowing and extremely profound for an 18 year old boy. I know. You know, when we're trying to find our art and our voice, sometimes we take, you know, impressions of other artists. So I get it. But it, it is pretty extraordinary. And so, and then, so if I, if we take that as kind of the jumping off point and then sort of the what you've created and what you've put into the world, not only is it husband and a father, but an artist. Your incredible performances, you know, your, your writings. Like there's such a. Such a strong sense of self, you know, like this kind of brave sense of self that I get off of you that, that I find really inspiring. And so how. I guess I would love to understand how you cultivate that and how you are brave enough to retreat to that. Like you have. There's a poem in the, in the book again where you say there's a difference between a good man and a nice guy.

B (51:50)

Right.

A (51:50)

A good man stands for certain ideals. And when those beliefs are contested, a good man is not a nice guy. Which is, you know, for me, who was raised to always be a good girl and, you know, go along. And I was so late in finding myself to a certain extent. Like, when did you understand that who you were was not only okay, but a gift? And how do you index into being a good man irrespective of what other people think?

B (52:27)

I, I honestly think that the inception point, the hinge where it really kicked in. And again, I'm still working on it, but was that year in Australia. I'll tell you why I'm alone. I just come from a life of catching green lights. Like I said, I graduated high school, mom and dad are happy. I got no curfew, I got gas, my tank, I got a truck, man, I got 45 bucks in my back pocket. I'm dating best girl, wine school and I want across town. Things are rol, man. I mean, I'm upset. Let's go. The brakes come on. When I go to Australia, I'm alone, doing what I was telling you I was doing. You know, there were differences, there were oddities. There were things that were coming on me that I didn't agree with, but I kept just chalking up to be in a cultural difference. This is a cultural difference. A cultural difference. And I remember the night about six months into the. The trip or the year that I was over there that they did say that question. We'd like you to call us mom and pop. And I remember immediately going, cultural difference or not, that ain't happening. And I remember even caught myself, like, going, whoa, you just stood up. And I remember I said, well, thank you for thinking of me that way, but I have a mom and dad. And I love this part because I said this. I remember saying this. I go, I have a mom and dad and they're still alive. Like it needed the context. But no, I will call you by your first names and thank you very much. And it got quiet at the dinner table and I cleared off the dishes. And before I went back to the bathroom to go do my nightly ritual, I said, good night, everyone, and called them all by their first names. And the next morning, guess what my alarm clock was. He won't call me mom. Whoa, wow. Now I remember putting my arm around her going, it's not personal, it's just. But I was not wavering. That was the non negotiable.

A (54:30)

Right, right.

B (54:31)

I'm a mom and dad. The rest of this stuff. Okay, Culture difference. This one, sorry, standing on it. And I had no one to check in with. I didn't have a friend, I didn't have my dad, I didn't have a brother. I didn't have my mom to check in. Like, is this okay? Can I stand for this? It was clear. And I remember I'm forced. So I was forced to make a decision on my own and stand up for it because it was black or white to me. And that was the launch pad of where I started taking my identity at the same time, when I was on my own. So I just stood up for something. But now who am I? So then I'm starting to go through. I remember returning to college, coming back and going to college, and I remember, you know, going to movies and laughing at things in the theater that no one else laughed at. And then the stuff that everybody laughed at, I was like, that's not funny. And then feeling weird and going, no, no, no, double down on that, Makani. And I remember going to funerals and not crying, but crying. When my friends or family would have a child, I would cry at birth, but not death. And I was like, oh, is that weird? Like, no, trust that, man. That's not. There's not a right wrong with that. Double down on that if that's how you feel. And telling myself that's okay. So, and I think it all started with that day. I went, no, I'm not calling you mom and pop. I'm calling Pop Pop, Pop. And so in writing things down and seeing, you know, noting things where I thought I was odd or weird or wasn't of the status quo and going and then going as you know as that, you do that for a while, you start to kind of get off to it. Like, oh yeah, my individuality feels cool. I've got, when I put my shoes on, I walk out the door. Yeah, I can get reservations for one. I would do that. I remember, you know, could it come back on Monday? What'd you do this week? And I went and saw the so and so, the movie. Oh, who'd you go with? Nobody. Me. And like, oh, I'm sorry. No, I, I, I, I did that on purpose. I preferred that.

A (56:24)

Right.

B (56:25)

You know, and so I think, and it's something I'm trying to teach my kids now is like, hey, there's one person you gotta be able to get along with, buddy, because it's the one person you can't get rid of. You. Yeah, you've got to shake hands with yourself. And if you're not get, if you, if you're uncomfortable when you're alone, it's a pretty good sign that you need to spend some more alone time with yourself until you can shake hands. I go. Because our old minds can be tricks and we got, we, we can got to shake some demons and get rid of them, but you, you got to end up high fiving and shaking your hands with yourself and going, dude, man, we're the only ones we can't get rid of, so let's try and get along in this gig. And I did that for a lot or I would take at times where, you know, life became big. I just, when I got famous, bam. 20 soon as I got famous, I was like, I can't tell the difference between reality and here. I got to get the hell out of here. Boom. 22 day trip, backpack alone to Peru. Why? Just put myself in a place where nobody knew my name and where memory could catch up with me. And I needed to say goodbye to people in my life to where the tears out of their eyes when I left were from the man they met and spent time with the last 22 days named Mateo, who they don't know what he did. Not from Matthew, who's famous I needed that, you know, test my own metal, see if I still had it. And I did. But I needed that to separate the reality from the height and stuff. So I've. I think I've done a decent job of going on solo trips to making a stand there. It started in Australia and then trusting things, if they weren't harmful to me or other people, oddities about myself, and going, cool, fine, double down on that.

A (58:08)

I love it. It's. It's amazing. So this is going to be the rapid fire round that.

B (58:15)

Yeah.

A (58:16)

Okay. Just one word or whatever.

B (58:19)

Okay.

A (58:20)

Greatest teacher.

B (58:24)

Greatest teacher. The one who's most understood.

A (58:31)

Favorite character you've played.

B (58:33)

Mud.

A (58:34)

Favorite thing about Camilla.

B (58:38)

Wet eyes.

A (58:40)

Favorite thing to do as a family.

B (58:42)

Cook together in the kitchen.

A (58:44)

Death row meal.

B (58:47)

Cheeseburger.

A (58:50)

Walk on song.

B (58:54)

Ted, Dudes at Stranglehold.

A (59:00)

Place. You feel most at peace in the desert. Something your wife and kids make fun of you for.

B (59:08)

Oh, they make fun of me. Well, they're just making fun of me last night. Oh, one thing. When I. When I. When I do get on my soapbox trying to teach, Rita will be like, okay, gonna give us another TED Talk. So. So they'll hammer. I. I do have to play general sometimes, you know, or come in and go, all right, guys, hey, huddle up here. We wrote the. We wrote the to dos. We wrote the rules on the fridge. We seem to go to the fridge. We don't seem to be reading them, and we just went over them. Need to do this every day. Okay. And I have to sometimes play the general, and they kind of listen and then get a big kick out of it.

A (59:45)

That's hilarious. Okay, last one. Which one of your poems or prayers would you want to introduce you at your eulogy?

B (59:56)

Oh, that's a good one. I'm going to go with the one that's on the back.

A (60:04)

Will you read it?

B (60:06)

The victor sees the light last. The final believer wears the crown. Don't pull the parachute too early. Fly until you touch down.

A (60:22)

Amazing. Thank you so much. This has been such a fantastic conversation. I've learned so much.

B (60:29)

Well, I sure did enjoy it. Gwyna. Thank you for the time.

A (60:32)

Thank you so, so much.

B (60:34)

All right, now,

A (60:40)

Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.