Reclaiming Pleasure & Sexuality

Summary

The Goop Podcast: Reclaiming Pleasure & Sexuality – Detailed Summary

Released on April 29, 2025, "Reclaiming Pleasure & Sexuality" is an enlightening episode of The Goop Podcast, hosted by Gwyneth Paltrow. In this episode, Paltrow engages in a profound conversation with Michaela Boehm, a respected sex and intimacy therapist, exploring the intricate relationship between sexuality, identity, and hormonal changes during perimenopause and menopause.

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1. Introduction

Gwyneth Paltrow sets the stage for a heartfelt and candid discussion about how perimenopause has transformed her relationship with her own sexuality. She introduces Michaela Boehm, a longtime friend and teacher, emphasizing Boehm's role in helping her "get out of my head and back into my body."

Gwyneth Paltrow [03:18]:

"How perimenopause has shifted my relationship to my sexuality. For most of my adult life, that part of me felt innate, like a current that I could always tap into. But lately, that current has felt different."

2. Sexuality as Identity and Changes During Perimenopause

Paltrow delves into the notion of sexuality being a core component of her identity. She expresses feelings of loss and confusion as hormonal shifts during perimenopause alter her sexual desire and fulfillment.

Gwyneth Paltrow [05:19]:

"I feel like a grief."

Michaela Boehm [05:23]:

"They change their energy."

Boehm underscores the societal pressures women face regarding their sexual identity, highlighting how societal standards often tie a woman's worth to her sexual desirability.

3. The Evolution of Pleasure

The conversation transitions to how pleasure evolves rather than disappears as women age. Boehm emphasizes that redefining pleasure involves moving away from the benchmarks set in younger years.

Michaela Boehm [06:30]:

"But even if you had a fairly conservative, let's say, you got married young, it's for most people a place where they don't have to perform outwardly, it's something that's their private enjoyment."

Paltrow relates personal anecdotes, discussing societal invisibility women may feel as they transition out of reproductive years.

Gwyneth Paltrow [08:48]:

"I have to make these choices, like getting on a plane a lot. But at least you know where it's coming from."

4. Reimagining Sexuality Post-Menopause

Boehm introduces the concept of a "second puberty," where women can rediscover and reinvent their sexual identities independent of hormonal drivers.

Michaela Boehm [22:59]:

"I see it more as a second puberty, so to speak."

She shares her journey of enhancing self-pleasure and reconnecting sexually with partners by exploring new dimensions of intimacy.

5. Reconnecting with the Body

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the importance of sensory engagement and bodily awareness in maintaining sexual vitality. Boehm recommends practices that awaken the senses, thereby fostering deeper sexual connections.

Michaela Boehm [14:13]:

"It could be anything. Could be a massage, self-massage. Could be a nice hot bath."

Paltrow acknowledges experiencing anhedonia—a diminished ability to feel pleasure—and seeks Boehm's insights on overcoming it.

Gwyneth Paltrow [14:14]:

"There's something about this time hormonally, where it's like the pleasure all around is just dulled."

6. Maintaining Adventure in Long-Term Relationships

The duo explores strategies to infuse adventure and newness into long-term relationships, especially when balancing parenting and professional responsibilities. Boehm introduces the "jar exercise," a tool designed to cultivate spontaneity and mutual appreciation between partners.

Michaela Boehm [51:02]:

"So the jar exercise in its simplest form is you sit down and you write a wish list of things that you would like to have happen on a date."

Paltrow shares enthusiasm for the exercise, highlighting its effectiveness in rekindling romantic connections.

Gwyneth Paltrow [54:32]:

"I like that."

7. Repatriating Power and Sovereignty in Sexuality

Boehm discusses the liberation that comes from redefining one's sexuality beyond societal expectations tied to fertility. She emphasizes the reclaiming of personal power, allowing women to define their sexual identities on their own terms.

Michaela Boehm [29:36]:

"And I think that's the actual key to the new sexual power is that when you come from a place of sovereignty where, like you said... you've earned your place."

Paltrow reflects on the empowering aspect of speaking one's truth and shedding the need for external validation.

Gwyneth Paltrow [25:18]:

"But there's something about this time hormonally, it's like the pleasure all around is just dulled."

8. Overcoming Trauma and Repatterning Arousal

Addressing the impact of trauma on sexual expression, Boehm explains methods to reframe and rebuild healthy arousal patterns. She emphasizes the importance of sensory experiences and open communication in fostering a fulfilling sexual life post-trauma.

Michaela Boehm [39:33]:

"But it's as simple as moving your body in a kind of non-choreographed way."

Paltrow contemplates the challenges of maintaining sexual intimacy amidst trauma and hormonal changes, finding solace in Boehm's guidance.

Gwyneth Paltrow [43:12]:

"Right, right."

9. Practical Tools for Sexual Vitality

Boehm offers practical exercises, such as daily movement practices and sensory engagements, to help women maintain sexual vitality. She underscores the necessity of integrating these practices into daily routines to counteract the energy drain from high-achieving lifestyles.

Michaela Boehm [72:44]:

"So you can repattern any which way you want at any given time."

Paltrow relates these practices to her personal life, recognizing the need to balance mental and physical energies.

Gwyneth Paltrow [73:06]:

"If we do, we get so head up... it's all in like two feet."

10. Conclusion

The episode concludes with Paltrow reflecting on the intertwined nature of sexuality and identity. She appreciates Boehm's insights, which offer a renewed perspective on embracing sexuality beyond traditional frameworks. The conversation leaves listeners with actionable strategies to reclaim and redefine their sexual well-being amidst life's transitions.

Gwyneth Paltrow [75:24]:

"This conversation reminded me how deeply our sexuality is woven into our sense of self and how disorienting it can feel when that starts to shift."

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Key Takeaways:

• Sexuality as Core Identity: Sexuality is deeply integrated into women's identities, and hormonal changes can significantly impact this relationship.

• Evolution, Not Loss: Pleasure evolves with age; embracing new forms of intimacy can lead to richer sexual experiences.

• Sensory Engagement: Activating the senses is crucial for maintaining sexual desire and connection.

• Reclaiming Power: Redefining sexuality post-menopause fosters personal sovereignty and empowerment.

• Practical Exercises: Implementing tools like the jar exercise and daily movement can rejuvenate sexual vitality in long-term relationships.

• Overcoming Trauma: Addressing and repatterning trauma-induced sexual imprints is essential for healthy sexual expression.

This episode serves as a compassionate guide for women navigating the complexities of sexuality during perimenopause and menopause, offering both empathy and practical solutions to reclaim pleasure and intimacy.

Transcript

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

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[Acura]

Acura's all new ADX. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything to escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in.

[Michaela Boehm]

Hey, Google, turn it up.

[Acura]

Okay. Turning up the volume. And crafted to be heard. With an available bang. And Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance take your vibes on.

[Michaela Boehm]

Go, go, go, go.

[Acura]

Google is a trademark of Google llc.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do.

[Acura]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Did you hear about that?

[Michaela Boehm]

I didn't find the one.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I found someone I respected and we.

[Michaela Boehm]

Made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of view of love. People understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

They change their energy.

[Michaela Boehm]

And when you change your energy, you change your life. Gwyneth.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers. Here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. This week on the GOOP Podcast, I am joined by my friend and longtime teacher, Michaela Boehm. We have known each other for over 15 years and she is someone I turn to when I need to get out of my head and back into my body. In this episode, we're talking about something I've been thinking a lot about lately and maybe talking about too much, but that feels really important. How perimenopause has shifted my relationship to my sexuality. For most of my adult life, that part of me felt innate, like a current that I could always tap into. But lately, that current has felt different. And it's left me asking, who am I when that part of me changes? Michaela has a grounding way of approaching these questions, and she reminds us that pleasure doesn't disappear as we age. It evolves. And when we stop measuring it by the standards we used in our 20s, there's actually so much more to discover. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast.

[Michaela Boehm]

Thanks for having me.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's so fantastic. So Michaela and I have had a relationship for many years. Fifteen years, at least.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I met you sort of in the context of a therapist, and then you've really become a friend. But of course, I still exercise my right to call you when I get in a bind. And lately, you know, we have been talking a little bit about and. And what I wanted to really explore with you, or at least start today. And as my listeners know, I apologize for talking about perimenopause and menopause all the fucking time, but I think I'm. I'm really fascinated and I guess also frustrated by how the hormonal changes in a woman's life, like, how much they impact our sexuality. And so I wanted to, I think, start with sexuality as identity, because I think what I've noticed in going through this hardcore perimenopause thing that's happening right now is that my relationship to my sexuality has changed or my sexuality has changed, and it makes me feel like I don't know myself anymore. Like. Like my sexuality was such a huge. An important part of who I was always. You know, I mean, at least from, you know, post puberty. How. I mean, I have so many questions around this topic, but is it right that our identity is so intertwined with our sexuality? Does that happen for everybody? Like, for me, it really was, or it is. So I feel like when my sexuality wanes or libido or whatever, hormonally.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I feel like a grief.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah. I'm so glad we're talking about this, because I think, you know, it is kind of the final frontier because we're not allowed to really talk about it, because also when we start talking about those hormonal changes, the very thing that makes us so identified with our sexuality kicks in, meaning what we could call very crudely, our sexual market value. And it doesn't matter if you're in a relationship or not. Right from when we are teenagers. We as women feel this enormous power in our sexuality and it is something that belongs to us and it's connected to who we want to explore ourselves. And it is a superpower. I mean, make no mistake, it is a superpower, not only externally, you know, I'm not even talking how it affects other people, but the kind of pleasure we can give ourselves, the kind of pleasure we can, or connection or play, we can seek out. Of course, we grew up in a time where that was possible.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

But even if you had a fairly conservative, let's say, you know, you got married young, it's for most people a place where they don't have to perform outwardly, it's something that's their private enjoyment. And at the same time, we identify as women, as sexy, as desirable. We do everything to look good and be seen as good. You know, this feeling of walking in a room and everybody looks at you. Right. There's something very empowering and beautiful about that, even if it's not kinked in some way. Right. Some people have things around that. So when that goes internally as well as externally, it's essentially a huge identity crisis.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, that's an interesting point because I think we do turn heads, right, when we're young. Like we, and if we don't, we want to, you know, and that creating that center of energy is like. You're right, it is a power. It is, it is something that women kind of, it's a magnetic field around them, around us. I certainly have noticed that. You know, I mean, I was just walking in downtown the other day and I was walking down the street with my husband's niece and this man was coming towards us and I just saw him look straight through me and down onto her. You know, she had like her boobs, like 17 year old tank top. And I was like, wow, this is so interesting, you know, like I could feel what I hear so many of my friends and older women friends talk about this idea of becoming invisible when you're not reproductively viable anymore. And that is, there is a letting go that is required around that. Right. And this kind of leaning into the crone phase and, and all the, all the wisdom. But I think, I don't always think it to myself. Like that's sort of the way forward, you know, it is the way forward.

[Michaela Boehm]

But you know, I, I am now post menopausal. I have a life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

God, you're so.

[Michaela Boehm]

I'm still having the hot flashes. All of them. I'm having one right now and I have you know, now when I'm getting off planes or so it's horrendous still. But, but I'm now, I'm now at that point where I look back and I'm going, wow, right. How much things have shifted. And what I've realized in that, in that conversation we're having is that really what. Where we have a conflation, where we have difficulty and that's the way forward, is that radiance and vitality and life force isn't the same as sexual viability.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Michaela Boehm]

And that's the way out of it. Because a lot of what is considered that young woman magnetism is vitality. It's radiance. Right. It's that natural shininess of the energy and it's the ability to be both, let's say big and soft.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

Right. And. And kind of the swirl of something. Right. And that gets conflated with just being young or being sexually viable.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

But you can have that essentially till the day you die. Probably not the day you died. And it might be a bit more low energy, but, you know, up till a very ripe age. And I know women who are super vital in their 80s and 90s. I mean, look at Jane Goodall for instance.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. She's amazing.

[Michaela Boehm]

She's amazing. Now it's different. It's maybe not as sex centered or externally, but I know women in their 80s and 90s who are having really fulfilling sex lives.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Come on.

[Michaela Boehm]

No, no, for real. I know a woman in her late 70s who's dating. She doesn't even want a partner. I love that she lives in New York City.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's amazing.

[Michaela Boehm]

Goes on dates and she's tearing the swath through the. To a certain demographic in New York City and openly talking about it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And that's great.

[Michaela Boehm]

And what that is is the willingness to essentially completely reinvent your identification with your sexuality.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

And I think the worst part for me, and I think you've talked about that too, is that it no longer just loads up, you know, like out of nowhere.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

You no longer have like this natural kind of a thing. And that's.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

When I, when that happened, I thought my life was over literally, because it was like, what am I gonna do now?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

And so I had to really refind what it was really about and how I. I can stay turned on or.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Alive or, you know, what was it about?

[Michaela Boehm]

Well, well, for me, it was that understanding that maybe not everyone was. Maybe, you know, I wasn't gonna turn heads anymore with everyone.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But of a Relief it is, you.

[Michaela Boehm]

Know, it's nice to be in an airport and nobody looks at you.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I don't even brush my hair anymore.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah, it's a little bit like that. But there is a relief about that. But we identify that with our personal relationship and that's not the same. So maybe we're a little bit less visible out there. And you know, it's weird things. I was in Portugal and I blew a tire and in the middle of absolutely nowhere. And you know, in the olden days, the moment that happens, you could just go help and somebody will rescue you. Right. And that did not happen. People just drove by me, you know, for. But then of course, somebody stopped and helped me and I realized that idea of the damsel in distress is somewhat disempowering completely.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It is.

[Michaela Boehm]

Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And, and, and, and it's, I think, a myth that we often perpetuate.

[Michaela Boehm]

That's what I mean. It's connected with our sexuality and our sexual viability and all of that. And there's another way. And for was was realizing that my, let's say my love and care and connection with myself kind of rose while my sexual viability went down, so to speak. Meaning as I got older and as I got into perimenopause and I had rough perimenopause, like really rough for a few years.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

I had to kind of really go, who am I? What am I about? How do I want my life to be? What if this is the way it's going to be from here on out? What if my looks go to the point where I'm not happy with the way I look? What am I going to do then? And so what kind of remained was what I know I'm about. And also this kind of real strong vitality that I then turned into self pleasure. And then out of that came pleasure with a partner again.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Self pleasure, meaning self pleasure.

[Michaela Boehm]

Not only sexual self pleasure, which I think is super important. I think the one thing I can say being on the other end is that even though you don't feel like it, you have to essentially chip away every single day and have a moment of actual physical pleasure.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And it could be anything.

[Michaela Boehm]

Could be anything. Could be a massage, self massage. Could be a nice hot bath. Can also be sexual stuff, self pleasure.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Because I do notice there's a bit of like anhedonia lately. You know, like I have sort of. I'm happy, I'm content, I'm very grateful, I love my, my people, my husband, my children, my friends, my job. But there's something about this time hormonally, where it's like the pleasure all around is just dulled.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes. And that's the practice.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So why does that happen, that our pleasure gets.

[Michaela Boehm]

I think what happens is it's all one system, right. And that's why it's so important when we talk about people not feeling like having sex. I never start with sexual stuff. I always start with the senses. I start with beauty. I start with smelling things, tasting things, touching things, creating beautiful things of this beautiful flower here. Right. So where you essentially go, I have senses. I can enliven my senses, my enlivened senses, then innervate the rest of my body into that line from, let's say, sensual to sexual pleasure. But if you are low on the. The senses, you're not going to feel sexual. And I think we go low on the senses because it's so tough to feel like I'm having a hot flash right now.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. You have to let me go get my fan.

[Michaela Boehm]

You have to essentially disconnect from the parts of your body that don't feel good.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

And then with that, when you take that back, you take everything else back. Right. Because it's one system. So when you don't want to feel something, you know, that doesn't feel good, you know, and suddenly your skin's loose somewhere or you gain weight or you don't. You're a bit dry or whatever, you. You pull back from yourself. And that pulling back regulates down the entire, let's say, hidden, you know, like, array of things.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

You don't want to do anything anymore.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's interesting too, because, you know, of course, you have this physiological thing that's happening. Right. Your whole endocrine system is changing. You are no longer reproductively viable. So you're not making all those hormones, you know, there's a whole sexual desire that goes along with those. That's right, right. Those rhythms, those patterns. So that is waning. And then also at the same time, I didn't think about the discomfort, you know, that where this sort of hijacking of your body, your mind sometimes, you know, your emotional sense of emotional stability. And I guess that's why there's that. I guess it's like a. It's almost like a hunkering down and like pulling out, protect, you know, it's like it is. And. And so. And that is hard to do at the same time, to both try to be regulating yourself all the time, you know, because we live with people and in work with people, and we can't be dysregulated all the time. Yeah. But also that it's hard, it's very hard to get swept up in pleasure.

[Michaela Boehm]

It is. And it doesn't happen, like you said, no longer happens from an endocrine viewpoint. Because I mean, you know, once you're ovulating, you know, you get swept up in some tidal wave of something. If that's not happening, you have to source from somewhere else. And that sourcing starts way earlier. You know, way, way earlier. You can just hope that something turns you on or someone turns you on. You have to essentially go, okay, I need to have a baseline of sensual engagement that carries me over the slump. And then that of course relates with the nervous system because it's the, you know, these things are related. If you're frozen, you won't, won't be able to have strong arousal. Of course.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

If you're fight or flight, you're actually stepping on the brake of arousal because you can't be surviving and thriving.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

You know, and that's the whole thing. That's why it's called fight or flight. Feed or breed sometimes. Right. Because the feed or breed is the down regulation from the fight or flight. And that's the other thing. When you have hot flashes, for instance. Right. You have a, you have essentially a fight or flight moment.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, it's true.

[Michaela Boehm]

You come down from that thing and the last thing you want is anybody to touch you or anyone to come close to you or any desire because you have to essentially regulate your body back from, you know, nervous system arousal.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. And I imagine postpartum, I mean, I'm trying to think back to that time too, when you know, you have the endocrine thing going on, but then also you have, you know, children feeding off your body and you know, you're living to. So that's. I always feel like these two times in, in a woman's life are particularly challenging as far as being able to feed yourself with your, with, with pleasure. And, and I think, I do think sexuality is such an important part of that. And like you talk about, it's this sense of play. Like, when else as an adult are you ever free to just play?

[Michaela Boehm]

Exactly.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know, and experiment.

[Michaela Boehm]

And also, and this is also important for women. Right. Particularly high achieving women. But I think all women nowadays are high achieving somewhere. Right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Michaela Boehm]

With so much going on.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Michaela Boehm]

You know, there's so much to juggle. There has to be one place where you can let go.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

And for most people, that's in the Bedroom.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But if your hormones are up and you know, you're like, you don't feel like it.

[Michaela Boehm]

You feel like you need to control things. But even if you desire to let it all go, if you don't have the impetus to be available for that, then that's not going to happen.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about this new frontier of sexuality? So this post Menopausal. I'm so happy for you that you're on the other side of this.

[Acura]

Acura's all new adx. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything. To escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in.

[Michaela Boehm]

Hey, Google, turn it up.

[Acura]

Okay. Turning up the volume. And crafted to be heard. With an available Bang and Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx, crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance take your vibes on Google is a trademark of Google llc.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So how are you contextualizing this chapter of your life for yourself?

[Michaela Boehm]

Well, this is still a work in progress. Of course, of course. But I've just finished writing, you know, the book on this, I mean, the outlines and stuff like that. And I waited and waited till I was kind of on the other side where I could actually talk about it. Not in the aspiration because I think aspirationally I've read a lot of things, you know. Yes. The crone or the hag or. And you know, like there's a whole thing there, the elder and I don't think that's what it is. I don't honestly think crone, hag or elder is going to cut it for me or most women I know. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's a horrible hag is really.

[Michaela Boehm]

Well, there's a whole. Yes. There's a whole book about claiming, you know, haggitude and mind you, you know, I, I love the particular author and everything, but it's not my thing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

And the reason it's not my thing is because I don't actually think that just because you're menopausal now you are kind of, you know, this whole idea of now you're the woman who speaks her mind and fuck it all and you know, a little bit angry but uncompromising. I don't think that's where it's at. I actually think that we can reclaim the best parts of us but drop the ones that were essentially adaptations for the sexual viability or the fitting in in a certain way. And I see it more as, as kind of a second puberty, so to speak. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

But from a place of actual experience where you can go, oh, this is actually what I want to do with my body and this is actually how I enjoy sex and I enjoy pleasure and enjoy my senses. And I don't have to put that in the context of now. For some women, they still need to find a mate, right? But for many people, they have a mate and they just have to re. Kind of develop that relationship as one of, let's say, adventure and joy and fun and newness, which you could say, you could say, wow, I'm no longer in fear of being pregnant. I no longer, in my case now not having mood swings is like, I can't even tell you what that's like.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow.

[Michaela Boehm]

I've had mood swings, like, you know, homicidal mood swings for, for my adult, my whole adult life. Right. So like that kind of, let's say, stretch of time where you, you're not hijacked by the up and down has been, honest to God, the most creative and productive part of my entire life. And I've kind of taken the last year and not done much business wise or whatever, new stuff because I really wanted to see what's left. But what I'm saying is it's finite. And when I look at what I want to do with my life, if it's finite, then it's super clear. I want to have pleasure. And I want to have the kind of pleasure that's not determined by my biochemistry, but the kind of pleasure that includes food and friends and beautiful gardens and touching an animal, you know, for the sheer joy of having a, you know. You know, I love dogs. Having a dog, but then also having a kind of relationship where I don't have to be a housewife, you know, or a very specific partner where I can actually say, this is how I want it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, it's very, it's very freeing.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I do think there is something though, to. I've noticed for myself that bumping up against menopause there is a kind of not giving a. Like.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Is that I find really deeply relaxing in my bones because I don't care. I don't seek approval. Like what I. I still have issues in my relationship with myself because I still talk to myself negatively or I can still kind of like break into some, you know, old thing that still needs healing. And I suspect I will have to do that for the rest of my life. But I find it so freeing to be able to speak the truth.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I never tied that to reproductive viability. But it must, it is.

[Michaela Boehm]

And why? Well, and by the way, I have the exact same experience, but it is tied to reproductive viability. Because when you're young, you're. You're looking for a partner, right? And so when you look for a partner, you are essentially. And I mean, most women I know have compromised wildly in the early parts of their relationship in order to keep a certain kind of a construct of a relationship or marriage or family going. Right. And so while we are in the reproductive years and child rearing years and finding partnership and maintaining partnership, particularly when you have children and you want to maintain partnership, you are constantly selling yourself down the river.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's so true.

[Michaela Boehm]

You know, I mean, you have to. And that is part, I think, of being a good parent in a certain way, that your needs are not the most important thing in the house.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Of course, of course.

[Michaela Boehm]

But we've done that and we do it over and over and over and we no longer think about the fact that that's just expected in a certain way and a knee jerk. And there's a lot of, you know, kind of compliance because also you have other women in your family construct, mother in laws, mothers, ex wives, whatever, you know, people who care for your children while you go to work, people you work with. So you're constantly in this acquiescence of maintaining a certain kind of a status quo. And you know, then you hear all these stories about nasty women and, you know, disagreeable women or whatever. It's woven in the fabric of, of our civilization where you're supposed to be collaborative and you, and you're not supposed.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

To be, and really you're, you're. The survival of your children can be predicated on you being collaborative.

[Michaela Boehm]

Collaborative, exactly. And when you look at it in the tribal context also, you know, the olden days, if you weren't nice to the other women who were helping you raise your children, help you birth, help you, you know, men came and went, particularly in the early days of humankind, right. Men would be out there fighting or hunting, getting killed, never coming back. Right. So you relied on a group of women, which is why we yearn for that so much, but also why it's so sometimes abrasive, because we have to fit somewhere in that construct. And only it's a pecking order essentially. And if we do, then we're safe.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

And then of course, if you happen to live long enough, we're talking tribal construction concept, you know, like millions of years ago, even if you Live long enough and you no longer risk dying in childbirth or you no longer need to collaborate for food or status or things like that. You can just be yourself. And then women look to you for wisdom and instruction and help and support. And when you end that in that place, which is what perimenopause, menopause, post menopause is, essentially, you no longer have to be selling yourself out.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

And I think that's, that's the actual key to the new sexual power is that when you come from a place of sovereignty where, like you said, I mean, there's always things, right, where we compare ourselves so we, you know, we talk tough to, to ourselves, but that all aside, you know who you are, you've earned your place. You have a certain kind of gravity in your surrounding that allows you to go, here's what I'm thinking. And you won't get out, you know, cast out. You will be listened to.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So interesting, isn't it? It's like we can be threatening if we have, if we're in our sovereignty right when we're, when we're young, it's like too, it's too threatening.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think it's like the acquiescence and the collaboration is what makes us acceptable. And we learn that lesson that like we're lovable when we are in collaboration with everyone. And so many times, like I can think of so many times in my life that I betrayed myself in order to collaborate.

[Michaela Boehm]

Oh yeah, oh yeah. It's, I mean, when I think back at some of my greatest achievements, many of them came with having to sell something of myself out, so to speak, down the river. Meaning I had to go, well, you know, I'm going to have less time for myself or well, I said yes to this and I have to now work with somebody I don't want to work with. But that's the only way I'm going to do the thing I want to do, right? So there's, there's all these things that happen and when they no longer happen, that's when actual personal power kicks in and hopefully will be, let's say, polished by life enough that we use the personal power for good, meaning other people and our own sexuality.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I've been counted out, dismissed, passed over.

[Michaela Boehm]

Told I'd never be a golfer with just one arm. But the only thing that feels better than proving people wrong is out driving them. I'm 14 year old golfer Tommy Morrissey and I want to be remembered for.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

My ability as a champion partner of the Masters bank of America supports everyone. Determined to find out what's possible in golf and in life. What would you like the power to do? Bank of America. Bank of America NA member FDIC. Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved. How does that translate into, into this kind of new iteration of our sexuality, especially if physically things are different? Yeah, you know, like one of my great friends, the other day, she was making me die laughing. She's my age and going through all the same kind of thing. And she was like talking about having sex with her husband, who she loves. And she was like, okay, just like do whatever. I'd feel nothing down there. Absolutely, absolutely nothing. Like, like there. It's almost like a change she was describing, like this change in her nerve endings even. Yes, you know.

[Michaela Boehm]

Oh, yeah, I remember. I mean, there was a very specific moment where I just. The touch that usually would work. Did nothing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So what happened? Like, did it come back?

[Michaela Boehm]

No, no, it did not come.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It never came back?

[Michaela Boehm]

No, it didn't come back like that. But it came back other places in different ways. But, and what I mean by that is my pleasure now is much wider and like full bodied and very deep, like internal even and you know, cervical and there's all kinds of places that I never knew. I mean, I knew they existed. You know, this is my livelihood. But meaning I never knew I had such power and potency in those areas.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So how does, how do you access that?

[Michaela Boehm]

Well, so the thing is, when your friend does the thing where she goes, do my. Do your thing, I feel nothing. That's not the way to go.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's not the way to go.

[Michaela Boehm]

That's not the way to go. That's not to say that on occasion you don't want your partner to just do their thing, right. In a healthy relationship, there is a place for that in a healthy relationship. Not as a martyr or abuse pattern. Right. But I want to just say this for anybody listening, but then there's also the, the moment to say, listen, things are not the way they used to be. So can we experiment with other things? Right? So that's, that's the way I did it, right? And it's like, can we experiment with other things? I've never really had to experiment. What else would feel pleasurable? Because it's always been instant and available. But now you, can you help me explore, right? And then most good partners go, sure, you know, what do you want to do? And then you, you can go, well, let's just do touch. Can you just like go everywhere and see what Things feel like. Or there's lots of good advice or can we maybe you know, use a toy or something? Not to replace the partner, but to see are there other areas.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

Can you just be wildly experiment, you know, experimenting also with different settings. Maybe you were never into role play, but now suddenly that sparks something. Right. A lot of women we both know, right. Read like these erotic Kindle novels and stuff like that, which people report as huge turn ons because it gets their system going in a different way than the usual way.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like a more intellectual way.

[Michaela Boehm]

Intellectual, but also typically there's some weird stuff that you can, can, can use there. One of my friends writes she makes millions. I'm not kidding you, she makes millions. She started this just when Kindle started doing self publishing. She writes one every two weeks and people buy it and people buy them on Kindle and like the 99 cents or whatever. Right. And it's a formula, but it has like these, she, I mean she takes these different boxes of, you know how she.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And it's like explicit novel, super explicit. Wow.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah. But I'm saying this to say maybe.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You need to send me the link.

[Michaela Boehm]

That exists in that atmosphere, in that kind of whole area of Kindle where there's erotic literature that makes you go, oh, I never even thought about that. But it hits certain beats that are outside of your usual arousal pattern.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So you're saying it might be an interesting idea for women who are experiencing this to open the aperture and just read stuff, try stuff, see stuff, just almost like put down the version of yourself that you knew and what turned you on.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And then.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes, absolutely. Because you know that we've talked about this and I think many people talk about this, that arousal patterns are learned. Right, Right. So how you typically learn an arousal pattern is first by yourself. And so the way you give yourself pleasure has a very specific cascade of events that includes physical stimulation, physical endocrine, hormonal stuff and fantasies. Because most people learn arousal patterns through self pleasure. And so you think about a certain thing, you're in a certain posture, you move your hands in a certain way and that's your arousal pattern. Right. And then, and so that's typically when this is also true for men. Why. Which is why men have very specific fantasies. It's, it's built into your nervous system and so it's kind of you push the first button and then it's like this cascading round of dominoes that does the thing that then gives you arousal and ultimately an orgasm. And so when you then are with a partner. A lot of times in the beginning when people have sex, they still need that arousal pattern because that's the only thing that's built into their nervous system. And then over time you create one with your partner. Or some people have certain fantasies that they play in their head while they're with their partner, which is not optimal, but that's how it often goes. And so I'm saying this to say you can at any given moment in your life, not only in periment, menopause and menopause, but change your arousal patterns. And we do that of course consciously with people who had traumatic sexual imprints. Right where that was one of the things I did in my early careers. I helped people rebuild those arousal patterns. But you can do that by yourself, by letting yourself experience aliveness and arousal from different sources than what's built in and then rebuild those through practice. And I'm making quotation marks here because it does feel like practice when you have to, let's say, read something and masturbate to it and you don't really feel like it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's homework.

[Michaela Boehm]

It's homework. It's literally homework. And you can completely re pattern your system, but you can also re pattern your system with the arousal of being free, being non compromising, speaking out with your partner in the bedroom, trying different things for yourself sensually and sexually, dressing differently, doing things differently. So you can repattern any which way you want at any given time. But we typically don't go there till the spots that used to light up no longer light up.

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[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Can we go back to the trauma piece that you were talking about for a second? Because I think this applies to a lot of women, obviously. I just wanted to ask you when you were, you said in your early career you help people find a different arousal template around trauma. Why is that? You mean because they conflate trauma with their sexuality?

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So can you talk more about that?

[Michaela Boehm]

So this is, you know, a snapshot of something that's a very big field. But essentially when your sexual imprints are traumatic, either because of abuse or because you were in a relationship where you Acquiesced to things that you should not have or you didn't, you know, you had pain or you know, all kinds of things. So it doesn't have to be transgression, it could also be self transgression.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

Also happens. So you essentially weave together your, let's say orgasm or your arousal with certain behaviors, with certain emotional states. Right. And so then what very often happens is for instance, if people had, let's say very active transgression against them, they want to repair that, but then they get into a relationship with, let's say a guru, right. In a cult or something like that, where the exact same pattern applies just now in the spiritual domain.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Interesting.

[Michaela Boehm]

Right. But it's still sexual in or, or you end up with a partner who looks nothing like your abuser, but then over time puts you into the same position where you have to compromise yourself in a certain way or humiliate yourself in a certain way, and you get aroused by that because that's the only arousal, you know.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Interesting.

[Michaela Boehm]

No. And so very often in that kind of work you have to look at is what you're seeking out sexually based on essentially spiking and then regulating your nervous system or spiking it and then freezing or trying to get out of a freeze with some really rough sex, you know, like those kind of things. When, when, when you have trauma tied up in your sexual behavior, you have to really look careful. What's real and what's essentially trauma based or trauma imprinted.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Wow. And how does, how do people go about understanding which is which?

[Michaela Boehm]

Well, I think it's always important to say that if you don't suffer, right? Meaning you have a certain kind of sexual inclination, whatever that is, and it works for you and it works for your partner and your body feels good with it. It doesn't matter where it's coming from, so to speak.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, right.

[Michaela Boehm]

But if, let's say, trying to think of someone I've worked with, you have a kind of a dependence on your partner, you know, kind of a daddy thing. And that, you know, that kind of daddy thing plays out in sexual dominance, but then also plays out in relational disempowerment. This happens quite a bit, right? Where then women go, well, it's fun in the bedroom, but now where have you been? Show me your phone. Dress like this. Do like, do this, don't do this, we're going here. Right. And then so it kind of mushrooms out into somebody no longer having power in the relationship. Then we have to look at. And then often women have Said to me things like, well, but you know, I like the sex is great. And that part is, I'm never going to get that with somebody else. So I'll deal with the other things. Then of course, we're now in a territory where it's a bit like you're essentially in a trauma pattern where you are perpetuating in your life things that really only belong in the bedroom. Why is that? And very often you can trace that down to some earlier thing.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Interesting. And it is you, it is like you can recover from that. You can reprogram.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah, you can. Yeah. Not everything is super severe, right. I mean if you've had really, really severe stuff, you will forever have that imprint. That's, you know, I don't want to say that you can, it's not like you get healed, but you can most definitely learn the tools to A, not attract people like that. That's the important B, catch yourself when the trigger is coming and see do something else. When you feel that you're going into these patterns unhealthy.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I want to go back to something you talked about earlier because I think, and you know, it's a, it's a topic that so many women of all ages who've been in a longer term relationship, especially, especially when there are little kids, like I have so many friends where that incredible sexual connection they had with their partner, the, the children like sort of, you know, drain all of the energy out of it. And I remember once a friend of mine that I went to high school with, she was like really not in a good place in her marriage. And then the, the three kids actually all went to summer camp, sleepaway camp for the first time. And she was like, this is, was a total marriage defibrillator. Like it, it, you know, just even remembering but you know, that's extreme in a way. Like all three kids going, you know what I mean? Like, so how, how can women. What did you say? You said, you said that it is possible to get that sense of adventure and newness with someone that you've been with for a long time. Or say, you know, you have toddlers or say you're in menopause or you know, or say, for example, a lot of friends, you know, are so highly powerful focused on work. And I think just the sense of adventure goes right, because your, your priorities are shifted. So how do people cultivate adventure and newness in a longer relationship where there are dependents or competing priorities?

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah, well, I have a whole thing about that. I actually just came back from Teaching this particular thing in, in a workshop.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

In Australia because what was the workshop called?

[Michaela Boehm]

It was called the relationship boot camp. It's my newest thing I've taught, I'm teaching them all this year. You know, I only teach my workshops one year and then I make new ones, so. Cool. So this is a relationship boot camp. And so one of the things we looked at or the things we looked at in, in a long term relationship that allow you to keep the spark alive, the first one is, has nothing to do with sex, but it's the single most important thing you can do for your relationship and that is praise. And because it's the first thing that goes, right? Particularly you have young children, you're now running the business, right? The business of a family. It's all about what you haven't done and not what you have done. It's all about how two people are managing a life that's essentially unmanageable.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, right, yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

When you were really honest about it. And so the first thing that goes is benefit of the doubt and regard. And that's a very interesting aphrodisiac though, in the sense that when your heart isn't open, the sexual thing kind of is one dimensional as we all know. And so the heart opening is the finding things to praise your partner with generously and freely as a means of re establishing an appreciation and seeing that partner not for that same old, same old, but for something that they've done that you actually thought was great. Yeah, yeah. And I mean most people come home and they'd say, oh, and today I did. And it's like, okay, well can you take the kids now? Right? And there's not that, wow, she's just done that or he's just done that or, or you look across and you actually see someone looking in your, in your kitchen if somebody's there, right? Like you look into the kitchen, you see your partner sit there and I don't know, read a magazine or something and you have this moment of like, ah. And you don't act on it, you don't go over there and say I really love you or, or you, you know, I love that you're always X. Right, Right. We always go, I hate that you always X. But we never say, I love that you always read your paper before you do anything else and then tell me about it while I cook or whatever. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Someone once said to me, like, catch them doing something.

[Michaela Boehm]

Right, exactly. Right, exactly. And then, and then this is like dog training, right, for, for both men and women. It's like you have to go, good boy, good boy, good girl, good girl. Right? But, but also it's about the heart, about being seen.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

Being actually seen by your partner is probably the most incredible thing. So that's one thing. But the thing about adventure and aliveness in a relationship, unfortunately, you're going to have to plan for it, right? You're just going to have to. It's not going to happen spontaneously. If you wait for it to happen spontaneously, you're going to wait a long time.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

With kids and jobs.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right? Right. Yeah. People make plans and, and then, you know, in your, your book the Wild Woman's Way, which is such a fantastic book, you kind of talk about, you know, the site you teach you. I think it's. You've trademarked this non linear movement, right. Of like women having a modality to get in their body and to have that as a practice. Because you want to be halfway there when you get to the appointment.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah, exactly. But I do this thing called the jar exercise.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I love this. Tell everybody.

[Michaela Boehm]

Exercise is just. I came up with that for a couple who was like so busy and had four children and both had companies and they loved each other, but they had zero. There was zero play.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

So the jar exercise in its simplest form is you sit down and you write a wish list of things that you would like to have happen on a date. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So are they all sexual?

[Michaela Boehm]

No, that's the thing. So you, so you can get very fancy. I, I have one couple. They have like an, like, they have like a agenda of color coded pieces of paper on the front of their jar. You don't have to go that. So you can do. The way I slice them typically is outside adventure. So meaning something you can do outside the house, just the two of you. That's not. Let's go to dinner and have sex.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Which never really, you know, after dinner.

[Michaela Boehm]

Exactly. Thank you. Like, let's go to a bar and have sex. Let's go and watch a sunset and have sex. So other things like that, right? And it was funny because I did this in Melbourne. People came up with like crazy stuff.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Like what, what was an example, the.

[Michaela Boehm]

One that I really loved was we'll get dressed up like Victorian vampires in this like dark sexy outfit and we're packing a picnic with all kind of dark or blood colored foods like red wine, chocolate, a steak, whatever. Like, so this was this whole theme around vampires. And then they went to the Yarra river, which in Melbourne is where there's millions of bats flying off when they wake up at sunset so you can watch the sunset. And then these little balls that hang in trees start screeching and kind of waking up. And then these massive bats. Like massive bats. And so that was one date thing. It's like they were gonna watch the bats emerge in their Victorian outfits on a bench eating their sexy dark food. I thought that was pretty, pretty cool.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Listen, you know, whatever.

[Michaela Boehm]

Whatever floats your boat. But so outside adventure, inside connection. So, meaning both people are at home and it's about connecting.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

[Michaela Boehm]

And sexual. And then the sexual falls into things we've never done before, Things we like but haven't done, you know, much or never queekies. And one partner just saying what they want and the other partner giving it to them.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So you put all of these in a jar?

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes. So each person writes these.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

[Michaela Boehm]

So each person writes these down. And then you can essentially put them on. On different colored paper or you can write on the outside what it is. Different color paper really works. And then you throw them in the jar. And then whose ever turn it is, you always want to take turns. So let's say it's Wednesday evening, It's your turn. You're going to pick Brad's color and you pick whatever you decided it is. Like you have 15 minutes before somebody shows up in a quickie of some sort. Or you have an evening, you don't feel particularly sexy, but you really want to connect or you want to go out and do something. So whoever picks, peaks in the morning, figures out how to do that, and then gives that experience to the partner. Partner gets to enjoy. Doesn't have to reciprocate.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I like that.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes. Super important. It's not a tit for tat.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

Then next date, the other person picks.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's great.

[Michaela Boehm]

So. And then you can go, oh, let's do something crazy sexual. You have those, you have those things. Right? And then it's. It's not. I don't know exactly how to say that. It's not the two people having to tell each other what to do. It's one step removed with the piece of paper. So it takes away that, you know, okay, now I have to tell him what to do. You told him what to do three weeks ago. Right. So it has a different tonal feeling to it and it has a sense of adventure because it's a game. And you know, of course people can set time or, you know, certain things that they don't want to do, but essentially the agreement between consenting adults is for this time I'm gonna do whatever you said you wanted.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, right.

[Michaela Boehm]

And then that can go sexual or non sexual.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's great game.

[Michaela Boehm]

And then one of my set of clients who I started this with, what they do is they take the few days later they take the piece of paper and they go, how was that? Do we want to put that back in the jar or not? And then they often have a conversation where they go, well, no, I don't think so, that's not my thing. And then the other person might say, but I really love that. And then it goes like, okay, well it goes on your list. And so you kind of in a very playful, nonsense, threatening and also non chore way, massage your relational, sexual, intimate, erotic life without it being a problem.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, right.

[Michaela Boehm]

That's the thing. It can't be a problem. You have to do these things and not as a problem.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

Because the other side of catch them when they do something good is say something negative while they're trying to offer you a gift or a service or an experience that kills it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, that's. No, that's terrible. No, that's.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah, yeah. And then the last thing I want to say about people with young children and their sex life going is I think it's important that people don't do that enough is to essentially have a real sit down on occasion with a therapist or without and say, where are we with the, let's say, purpose of our relationship? So we're pregnant now. We are going to be parents. Now do we know what that means? What do we know we need to maintain in this phase of being parents. What can go, what's important relationally but also community wise, what's not? So that both partners know what to expect. No, that doesn't often happen. So one person still thinks, you know, they will be swinging off the chandeliers after the baby is put to bed. The other person doesn't want to be touched ever again.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, well, it's just so interesting, you know, it's like we seem to be so, so many of us anyway seem to be so drawn to be in a committed long term partnership and yet it is full of ups and downs and, and it's really, I think becomes, you know, it really. All those moments do become opportunities to like have real intimacy with someone as opposed to like lust or attraction. You know, it's only through moving through those difficult times where things are don't feel as intuitive and you're fighting for it, you know, you're fighting for this. The relationship that exists between the two people.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And sometimes it feels almost counterintuitive to your biology, you know, to your. But I always find that so interesting because, you know, these sexual, intimate relationships like we. Brad always says that he finds monogamy so interesting because it's, you know, you have all kinds of relationships in your life where you do ton. You know, I can take a walk with you and with my brother and you know, I can have a great conversation with everybody, laugh. But he loves the idea that there, that is just the thing you do with one person. Yeah. And if you're going to commit to that, which a lot of people don't want to commit to that. And that's fine too, of course, obviously. But there. It can go through all kinds of trials and tribulations and then there's like. But there's a lot of insight and closeness to be mined from the harder parts of a long term intimate relationship.

[Michaela Boehm]

Well, and I think that brings us right back to what does your sexual expression look like? Post hormonal.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You know, it looks like a dead body.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah. But that's only for a moment because when that body gets resurrected, it gets resurrected in that spirit, right? Yeah, in that spirit. Where you're going, well, what else is there? What are the areas I have never even considered available? You know, where could I. Where could I go that I've never gone before? And coincidentally, of course, that curiosity and the willingness to try something new then revitalizes your body. Right. We know that, that if you don't learn new things and you know, your neuroplasticity goes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Michaela Boehm]

Your, you know, your nervous system kind of dulls down, your longevity decreases. So all the things that we are talking about in the sexual domain, self and with a partner are also the thing that then create longevity and vitality where you just have to go, well, you know what, we're gonna go somewhere and the entire weekend we're gonna. We take a book with us and we try all the weird stuff in this book or something.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What book is this?

[Michaela Boehm]

I don't know. Whatever. It could be anything. Could even be the Kama Sutra or something super silly. Right. Doesn't have to be like the ultimate something that. But you just take a book or something and you go, have we ever done this? No. Do we want to? No. Let's do it anyway.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right, right.

[Michaela Boehm]

So you become explorers or connoisseurs of new.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, that's, that's, that's amazing. Explorers are connoisseurs of new. And, and you're right, because that like that. That has a downstream impact, right. On your cognition, even your everything, your sensuality, vitality.

[Michaela Boehm]

Right. And that's the thing. And that's the thing that I learned is that when I started going away from this is the end, I'm doomed. I'm flabby and whatever, Right. And I went like, this is new. I've never been here. Now, it was a bit easier for me because I was like, I'm going to write the book. Right. So, but. So I just went, this is new. I haven't done this. I've never felt like this. I've never not had sensation here. Where else is there sensation? What's.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And you found it other places.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

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[Michaela Boehm]

Well, I'm back in a very committed relationship.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, this is new.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes. So it's interesting. But I never dated.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You never dated?

[Michaela Boehm]

No, I never dated with somebody I knew. And it just transitioned from a friendship.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Into something way deeper because I was thinking it would be maybe intimidating to ask you out on a date if you were.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes. And there was a moment where I dated, like a hot moment. And it was very interesting because it is intimidating. But I think it's intimidating for the other reasons we talked about, which is I have very little filters.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I love it.

[Michaela Boehm]

And I. I'm also. You know when they talk about those big five personality tests, I don't know if you've ever heard about those. They, they, they. There's like these five categories that you score on. It's one of the most.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Which.

[Michaela Boehm]

Which it's called Big five.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, big five.

[Michaela Boehm]

Really, really good.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

[Michaela Boehm]

I'm highly disagreeable.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, wow.

[Michaela Boehm]

I Score super high. I score like, like in the 98 percentile or something.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I don't find you that way at all.

[Michaela Boehm]

I'm highly disagreeable. It's just I, I can keep my.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Mouth shut, but no conforming. That was supposed to be.

[Michaela Boehm]

I mean, I understand that my. I'm an automatic no. Right, Right. But then the next thing that happens is I'm like, maybe. Right. But I'm always a no. And then I, then I walk back from there into, oh, why not?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

But so, so I'm saying this to say dating me is dealing with somebody who's an automatic no.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

Unless there's a good case to be made. I think the one thing we haven't talked about yet is that super heady, what I call go mode. That kind of cuts you off.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Michaela Boehm]

From the flow. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

The like highly achieving.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

The woman mode. Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah. And I think that is an important.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That is an important.

[Michaela Boehm]

That fits right in with this, with this hot flash. It's always worse when one of the things that no one told me. Right. And I think if there's one thing women need to know, and I never knew this, you might notice, is that the adrenals can actually buffer your loss of hormones. So we actually produce sex hormones in the adrenals. I didn't know that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I didn't know that.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah, I. Nobody told me. So essentially, if your adrenals are really healthy, they can pick up when you have a massive drop in the perimenopausal. For that, your adrenals need to be healthy and our adrenals are typically not that.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And you just got off an 18 hour plan.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah. Not good for the adrenaline, not good for the adrenals. So everything becomes about we both with our rings here. Is it the aura rings? Is it stressful? Is it hard on the adrenals? Which is, by the way, not the worst way to live. When you go, is it going to mess up my adrenals? Right. And then sometimes I have to make those choices, like getting on a plane a lot. But you at least know where it's coming from. From.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. But that's interesting going back to what you were just saying, because so many of us hard charging women who. I'm trying to be a former hard charging woman, but we all have adrenal fatigue.

[Michaela Boehm]

Oh, yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. I mean, we are like running a house. We're working, we've got kids or not. But you know, we're, we're. You said it earlier, like all modern women.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yeah.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Are I think running In a deficit.

[Michaela Boehm]

I mean, it's just, I think in particularly nowadays. Right. Because everything requires so much attention. I mean, I spent an hour this morning just texting people for appointments I needed for everything from the dog groomer to, you know, whatever. Like, like it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's a business.

[Michaela Boehm]

It's a business running your house. Right. Then it's a business running your business. Then you want to do something for your relationship. I don't have children, but I have students who, you know, and clients who rely on you sometimes very heavily. Right, of course. So we are hard charging and we don't quite understand what that does to our bodies.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

And so there's nothing wrong with being high achieving, supercharged, getting stuff done. Right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Except that all my CEO women friends, not all, but a lot, then they say they come home and like they just.

[Michaela Boehm]

Sex is the last thing that they want.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

The reason for that is. See, I don't like calling it masculine and feminine so much because not, you know.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

Men and women.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Absolutely.

[Michaela Boehm]

Right. We both have both parts.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

We both have both.

[Michaela Boehm]

So I call it go and flow.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right. And so the, I guess is one is more quote, unquote, archetypal male and one more archetypal female.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes, but so, so no, and, and what I mean with archetypal male and female, the reason this all started with masculine and feminine, just so that, you know, is that in the tantric texts, the two opposing forces that all humans have were called Shiva and Shakti, you know, the, the male and the female goddess. And then that filtered down into this weird Neot tantric.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But it can be a diff. You can still have the energy. Right. Of the masculine and feminine, but it doesn't have to be assigned to a gender.

[Michaela Boehm]

That's what I mean. Right. It's. We all have, we all have both.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

Regardless of your gender or your identification.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And some days we as women are indexing more into our masculine because we're leading a company or a team or whatever. Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

And so. But that's true for all humans. But that's why I call it go. So then it's not identified with a gender because that's beautiful. So. So go essentially is the part of us that requires planning, execution, driving force, you know, the things that are considered masculine. But I know lots of women who do it as well as any man I've ever met. So that's why I'm saying it's not belonging to men.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yes.

[Michaela Boehm]

Principle. So that Go. Principle. And this is very important when people understand this, they go, oh, the Goal principle is the principle that requires energy in the upper part of our body. Because you're thinking, you're speaking, you are directing, you're looking at another person, you're looking in a screen. So all your energy goes up where it's needed, right? And in the body, there's only a finite amount of energy. We only produce certain amount of energy per second. So the body naturally pulls energy from where it's not needed and puts it where it's needed, right? So right now both of us are sitting, so we don't need a lot of attention in our lower bodies. So our bodies bring it all up for thinking and talking and making sense. And then of course, all human beings are creatures of habits. So whatever you do the most has the strongest, you know, habit patterns. So if you do 10 hours of go, then that's. You're like a bodybuilder whose upper body is massively trained and who skipped leg day, meaning flow, which sits kind of under the solar plexus is intuition, pleasure sourcing from your power center. Creativity, play, sexuality, you know, all of those kind of things. Relaxation, what I call the non linear undulating kind of stuff happens in the lower body, right, for men and women. But in women, all our sexual organs sit down there. And so if we don't have energy and attention there because our energy constantly goes up, you know, your energy, energy goes up because you, you get tight neck, shoulders, throat, jaw, because your body tries keeping the energy there.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Interesting, right?

[Michaela Boehm]

Then when you come home and you go, now I want to be in flow. You have no muscle there, right? And so it's not a matter of not being feminine or not being a woman or not being. It's just we don't have enough muscle to direct the energy back down, down naturally, right? But you can at any given moment in your day, bring the energy down by actually bringing your attention into your lower body, right? And then that brings us back to when we talk about nonlinear movement and how do you prepare for a date. You have to get out of your head into your body. It's super easy. This is the tough part about it that people most don't want to hear. It's actually really easy, but you have to do it. And it's as simple as moving your body in a kind of non choreographed way. Not yoga or Pilates, has to be like random dance, free form. And, and I have this thing called non linear movement, which is done on hands and knees where your whole body just gets to move. So you have to bring your attention down, hip circles, squats, walking, playing with the dogs, kids, whatever. So and then when you do that, your energy goes down and then that entire area lights up. And that's the first step of wanting to have sex.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

But what that means, of course, when we look at lifestyle choices, when you say you want to be a recovering, high achieving is we have to on a daily basis make a little bit of time for training the flow muscle. You can't just not train the flow muscle and then want it to be there on the, you know, evening that you want to have sex.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

You have to actually every day do a little bit, you know, do one appointment less, have a cup of tea, looking out over the ocean, say no to something, move your body, body in different ways, care for yourself, you know, enliven your senses. And then by the time you want to have sex, your body's at least at 50%, maybe not at 100, but it's not on zero.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, it's wise words. You know, it's true. I have to, I think remembering that practice is, you know, if we do, we get so head up, you know, we just, we're in our heads all day and screens and keyboards, it's all in like two feet.

[Michaela Boehm]

It's super addictive. Yeah, it is, because the circuitry builds in. The body wants more of that thing. Right. Because there's the dopamine and you know, there's all this stuff that's connected and then our nervous system goes into fight or flight.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

And of course, once you're in fight or flight, you're in this. Interesting. As a woman, you don't want to have sex.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Michaela Boehm]

Right. Now it's not necessarily true as a man because it's a different circuit altogether. But as a woman, when you are under threat of your life, is under threat, you don't want to reproduce, you want to conserve energy. So tribally speaking, developmentally speaking, when you are in a threat situation, you want to maintain pregnancy, ovulation, child feeding. Right. So what are you going to do when you're stressed? Carbs. Really? Because remember in the olden days where you couldn't go to a corner store, you had to get a certain amount of carbs in you so that you could ovulate, so you could maintain your pregnancy, so you could breastfeed. And so for us it's food that starts happening, happening when we're constantly in the head and under stress and we don't want to procreate under stress. Yeah. And then that's the thing. We get super into. Or we just read all about that in Amy's book. Right. Like where you go and you do this high, constant, high performance stuff that keeps you up here.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Michaela Boehm]

Because of course also when you're up here, belly button, button up, you don't feel right.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And sometimes that's more convenient.

[Michaela Boehm]

Yes, a lot more.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being on the GOOP podcast.

[Michaela Boehm]

Always such a pleasure.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

This conversation reminded me how deeply our sexuality is woven into our sense of self and how disorienting it can feel when that starts to shift. Mikayla offered a new lens, one that made me feel less alone in the experience and more curious about what might be possible now. Even when desire feels far away, it's still inside us, just waiting for a different kind of attention. It's not about going back. It's about finding new ways to feel alive, connected by ourselves, our relationships, our lives. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.