Sh*t We Say in the (Mom) Group Chat

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Goop Podcast – "Sh*t We Say in the (Mom) Group Chat"

Episode Information:

• Title: Sh*t We Say in the (Mom) Group Chat
• Host: Gwyneth Paltrow, Goop Inc. and Audacy
• Release Date: May 6, 2025

Overview: In this heartfelt and candid episode of The Goop Podcast, Gwyneth Paltrow engages in an intimate conversation with three close friends—Tammy, Dawn, and Emily—who are fellow mothers and part of her chosen family. As Mother's Day approaches, the discussion delves deep into the multifaceted experience of motherhood, exploring themes such as parenting styles, the challenges of an empty nest, maintaining individuality, and the importance of a supportive community.

---

1. Introduction: The Essence of Motherhood

Gwyneth opens the episode by reflecting on the transformative nature of motherhood, highlighting the diverse emotions it evokes—from love and gratitude to doubt and fear. She emphasizes the importance of sharing these experiences to connect with listeners, whether they are mothers, hopeful mothers, or grieving ones.

Gwyneth Paltrow [00:01]: "Food, fashion, design, the feeling of a place, it all tells a story, and I especially love getting to share that with others."

---

2. Building a Motherhood Community

Tammy introduces herself and her friends, explaining how their children's friendships brought them together. The group shares nostalgic memories of meeting during their children’s school years, fostering a sense of camaraderie and mutual support.

Tammy [04:19]: "No one ever gave me the heads up that I could make some of my best friends, women I would admire most, through my children."

---

3. Diverse Parenting Styles and Individuality

The conversation shifts to how each mother navigates parenting differently based on their children's unique temperaments and needs. They discuss the balance between guiding their children and allowing them the freedom to express themselves.

Robyn [09:43]: "It's actually not on the child. It's on the parent to reach for that connection."

---

4. The Emotional Impact of Letting Go

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the emotional challenges faced when children grow up and leave the nest. The mothers share personal anecdotes about the feelings of loss and the struggle to find joy in the newfound quietness of their homes.

Tammy [41:44]: "Sometimes I just feel like there's no air or no joy. It feels like on a bad day, I have lots of good days..."

---

5. Repairing Parent-Child Relationships

Robyn, a psychiatrist, explores the complexities of repairing relationships with children after misunderstandings or emotional wounds. She emphasizes the importance of addressing unresolved issues and fostering open communication to heal and strengthen these bonds.

Robyn [12:14]: "Any unresolved stuff that you have yourself, you're going to identify that and see that through your parent, through your children."

---

6. The Role of Boundaries in Parenting

The mothers discuss setting and maintaining boundaries to promote respect and healthy communication within the family. They share strategies for addressing behaviors without resorting to punishment, focusing instead on teaching values like kindness and honesty.

Emily [18:42]: "Be kind to your siblings. You cannot whine."

---

7. The Importance of a Supportive Village

Highlighting the significance of a strong support network, the group acknowledges how relying on each other has been crucial in navigating the ups and downs of parenthood. They stress the value of having trusted friends to share experiences and seek advice.

Emily [52:13]: "You have to check that right at the door. And I needed to hand the reins over to both of you and know that she was going to be safe because she was talking to you, too."

---

8. Personal Reflections and Lessons Learned

Each mother reflects on their journey, sharing insights about self-care, the evolution of their identities post-parenthood, and the ongoing process of personal growth. They candidly discuss moments where they wish they had handled situations differently, offering relatable and honest perspectives.

Dawn [61:49]: "I felt like an octopus, with all these tentacles going out and learning how to care for yourself."

---

9. Embracing Imperfection and Growth

The conversation underscores the importance of embracing imperfection in parenting. The mothers admit to making mistakes and express a commitment to continuous improvement, fostering self-compassion and resilience.

Dawn [64:54]: "You're not supposed to be perfect. It's just progress, right?"

---

10. Conclusion: The Beauty of Connection

Gwyneth wraps up the episode by reiterating the significance of community among mothers. She celebrates the raw, imperfect moments that strengthen bonds and emphasizes that there is no one "right" way to mother. The episode concludes with a heartfelt wish for listeners to find joy and support in their own motherhood journeys.

Gwyneth Paltrow [76:10]: "The beauty is in showing up again and again with love, with humor, patience, and compassion for ourselves and one another."

---

Notable Quotes:

• Emily [07:02]: "Hold on a minute. This is nothing to do. It's like, get yourself out of the way and see who's actually in front of you."
• Robyn [10:33]: "People don't give enough air time."
• Tammy [13:20]: "Cause, like, and it's so interesting..."
• Dawn [75:10]: "The boundary."
• Robyn [66:35]: "It's a book of this is what I would have done."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Community Support: Building a strong network of fellow mothers provides emotional support and practical advice, essential for navigating the challenges of parenthood.
• Individuality in Parenting: Recognizing and respecting each child’s unique needs fosters healthier relationships and personal growth for both parents and children.
• Emotional Challenges: Letting go as children grow up is a profound emotional process that requires self-compassion and adjustment.
• Healthy Communication: Open, non-judgmental dialogue within the family helps in resolving conflicts and strengthening bonds.
• Self-Care and Personal Growth: Mothers must prioritize self-care to maintain their well-being and continue to support their families effectively.

Conclusion: "Sh*t We Say in the (Mom) Group Chat" offers a raw and insightful exploration of motherhood through the lens of four women who share their successes, struggles, and strategies. This episode serves as a valuable resource for listeners seeking connection, understanding, and practical advice on the multifaceted journey of being a mother.

Transcript

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

One of the things I love most about traveling is being immersed in someone else's world for a little while. Whether it's the architecture in Paris, the colors and textures of Mexico City, or a perfect bowl of pasta in Rome. Food, fashion, design, the feeling of a place, it all tells a story, and I especially love getting to share that with others.

[Tammy]

So when I first hosted with Airbnb.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I appreciated how easy and seamless it was. I could open my home on my own terms when it felt right for me, and the whole process was so simple. Hosting on Airbnb is a great way to make the most of your time away. It's a wonderful option if you have extra space, own a seasonal home, or tend to travel at the same time every year. Hosting is incredibly flexible. You set the dates, welcome guests on your terms, and create memorable stays that reflect the warmth and uniqueness you seek in your own travels.

[Tammy]

If you've ever thought about hosting, your.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

[Acura Ad]

Acura's all new ADX. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything. To escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in.

[Dawn]

Hey, Google, turn it up.

[Acura Ad]

Okay.

[Emily]

Turning up the volume.

[Acura Ad]

And crafted to be heard with an available Bang Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance. Google is a trademark of Google llc.

[Robyn]

When you are pioneering anything or introducing.

[Acura Ad]

New ideas to the culture, you get criticized.

[Tammy]

You do?

[Acura Ad]

Yeah.

[Tammy]

Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one.

[Emily]

I found someone I respected and we made it the one.

[Dawn]

In the sort of longing kind of view of love.

[Tammy]

People understand each other as if by magic.

[Emily]

Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled.

[Tammy]

I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy.

[Dawn]

And when you change your energy, you change your life.

[Robyn]

Gwyneth.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast. Bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers. Here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome back to the GOOP Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. Today we did something a little bit different and special. With Mother's Day coming Up. I wanted to sit down with three women who I'm very close to, who I met through my children, fellow mothers who have really become my chosen family, and women with whom I kind of raise my kids side by side, shoulder to shoulder. Motherhood can bring up so many things. You know, love and gratitude, longing, doubt, even emptiness or fear. It's rarely just one feeling. So in this conversation, we talk about the many ways motherhood can shape us and the unexpected ways in which it cracks us open. So whether you are a mother or you hope to be one, or. Or you're a grieving one or nurturing in your own way, I hope this episode meets you where you are.

[Tammy]

When I was thinking about Mother's Day this year in particular, and I feel like my role has changed so much as a mother. I'm gonna have you all introduce yourselves, but just so that the audience knows, like, you are the women that I raised my kids with. So we have two of Apple's best friend's moms here and one of Mosi's best friend's moms here. We all met.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

When did we meet? Guys?

[Emily]

We met in 2013.

[Tammy]

This is. Okay.

[Emily]

So elementary.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

In elementary school, when we all.

[Emily]

When you and I came and started our. Yeah. Jordan, fourth grade, and Moses were starting second grade, and Apple and Devin were starting fourth grade, And Emily. And Emily.

[Dawn]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And we were all in the same class.

[Tammy]

And sometimes it doesn't happen. I always say I talk about this a lot, how nobody ever told me. No one ever gave me the heads up that I could make, like, some of my best friends, some of the women I would admire most and feel closest to, that my children would bring them into my life. So I thank them all for bringing the three of you into my life.

[Dawn]

We feel the same.

[Tammy]

So grateful. So let's tell everybody a little bit about each of you and your amazingness. Tammy and I met.

[Dawn]

We've known each other since, I think, New York days.

[Tammy]

Since New York days, since the 80s.

[Dawn]

We have some good stories back then.

[Tammy]

We do.

[Dawn]

And we reconnected again when our daughters were in fourth grade. And it was so incredible to have a mother, a group of mothers that supported one another. And I feel like those are some of my favorite memories of our kids growing up, was having that safe space to be able to talk about absolutely everything.

[Emily]

And we did everything with no judgment.

[Dawn]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tammy]

That's right.

[Dawn]

And the support, the level of support that we offered, I mean, cause for me, Emily was my oldest. Right. I mean, and everything was new yeah.

[Tammy]

Unchartered Waters. Which was great to have you, Dawn. Cause you have older daughters, so you would tell us all the time what was coming around the corner.

[Emily]

And then there was always a couple of surprises that I didn't see coming and still are. Always so grateful to have this group. Because as much as you think you're prepared when you do have older children, they're each so individual, and they bring their own set of newness. And I think for me, that's what was the beauty of our friendship was because it was this space to come together and be like, what the. Like, can you help me? Like, am I create. You know, whatever it might be. And there was this real community and a real village that we created of raising these girls together and calling each.

[Dawn]

Other out when we were doing weird projecting and all of the things that we did as our first children.

[Robyn]

Because isn't that the key? Like, somehow I thought it was about raising a child, and then all of a sudden I realized, oh, it's actually.

[Emily]

About raising myself 100%.

[Robyn]

Hold on a minute. This is nothing to do. It's like, get yourself out of the way and see who's actually in front of you. Is very different than I thought.

[Dawn]

Parenting.

[Robyn]

I had no idea that was part of the plan when I. Did you when you started?

[Emily]

No, I did not. And I think, also, I think one of the most surprising things that I learned from our group and being able to talk and everything was a bit. What you just said is any unresolved stuff that you have yourself, you're going to identify that and see that through your parent, through your children. And either you're going to resolve it or you're going to bury it deeper. And I think we had a real platform together to really go deep on things that, through our parenting, may have been triggering or just came to light.

[Robyn]

So.

[Dawn]

And discovering what that was.

[Robyn]

And it's such a platform. The other part is to heal yourself.

[Emily]

Totally.

[Robyn]

I mean, to be.

[Tammy]

Robyn is a psychiatrist, by the way.

[Robyn]

If I'm sounding like one. If I'm sounding like. But it. Who knew that it was a second chance to have your own childhood? But this time, you're the parent, and this time you get to be the mom you always yearned for. And when you do, it's magic. It's transformation. You get to see the safety and the love. It's like, your kids look so well loved. All of your kids look so well loved. And as a psychiatrist, I always say I can spot somebody who has that look of they've been very well loved, but it's just. Who knew all of this when we started? I mean, I.

[Tammy]

What do you think about, like, the. Where's the line between like, well, loving and, you know, clearing all the obstacles for them and all of you. Do you parent your kids very differently, each one of them?

[Dawn]

Very much so. I do. I have to. I have such different, you know, temperaments and different emotional levels. It's like if I tried to parent them the same, it would go very wrong. You too?

[Emily]

I think I do. I. I mean, there's obviously a theme of how I parent. I like to think of myself as their guide in a lot of ways. But I do, I guess I do parent them each differently. I have to think about that a little bit.

[Tammy]

I think I'm like, I have so many fucking kids.

[Emily]

Let me just think I'm going through them all. I guess I do. I show up. I think I show up for each of them the same way. Cause I am who I am. But I think I recognize the different needs of each of them. But I parent as much as I'm so hands on. I also think I'm a little bit like, I just kind of guide from afar, but I'm there. I don't know.

[Tammy]

How about you?

[Robyn]

I think guiding is such a good word. I think you never think that. I think in my own practice, I do a lot of parenting consultations in the good. There's a fit. Sometimes a kid just fits easier. For a parent temperamentally.

[Tammy]

Interesting.

[Robyn]

They just fit and it's easy and it's effortless. And then sometimes parents cry in my office saying like, I just can't connect. And then it's on us to find that place of connection. It's actually not on the child. It's on the parent to reach for that.

[Emily]

Oh, Robin, that's beautiful.

[Robyn]

And when they do, and it's just like so much compassion for a parent, they're almost humiliated, embarrassed to say, you know, my kid bugs me. You know, the way they just bug me, like. And then finding that way to connect for whoever that child is, that's when transformation happens. It's just so beautiful.

[Tammy]

Do you find that when a kid bugs a parent or is triggering, it's because that the kid is like playing out some aspect of the parent that they don't like about themselves? Or is it really that the kid doesn't fit?

[Robyn]

You know, it's a million different things and a million different scenarios. Yeah. I mean, and each kid. Yeah. Birth order. There are so many things that come into Play. But it's just like meeting your kid where they are. And the beauty of kids is they're so fricking forgiving. I mess up every day of my life. I just am aware of it. And in the moment, you just say, I messed up. Can I have a mommy do over? Hold on, let me start again.

[Tammy]

Can we talk about that, the repair part? Because I feel like I've read a lot around this topic that. Cause, like. And it's so interesting, we had a friend staying with us, and he was saying how his mother once used to forget to pick them up a lot. And he remembered calling his mother from Hebrew school, like, when everyone was gone and they were turning out the lights and he called his mom and was crying, and she started laughing. And it's like this indelible wound, like this injury that he has. And I was thinking, you know, it's so strange because maybe his mother, if she was asked to take an inventory of her life, wouldn't be like, oh, it was the moment that I. Like, we don't know the things that we do that hurt them the most.

[Emily]

In a way.

[Tammy]

You know, sometimes it's like, I think so it kind of blows my mind. Like, sometimes I'll ask my kids, like, what was hard in childhood? Or, what's the worst thing I ever did to you? Or. And I'm so surprised by the answers. You know, it's like, not what you think they would be.

[Emily]

I think that's also so important. What you just said is you ask the question to them. I think having this open conversation with children along the journey and so that you can be a guide and you can heal it as you're going along and not wait 20 years to then reflect back, oh, when I called my mom. But actually the daily practice of forgiveness and the daily practice of, like, how do you feel today? Did I just. Did that hurt your feelings when I said that? You know, it's just the constant conversation and communication. Because our job, I think, as moms and as parents, is to just put awesome human beings out into the world. And the more we communicate and have conversations with our children, the better prepared they are for life and for resolving those things in the moment when they're happening as best we can.

[Tammy]

Let's ask the therapists. How far away from an event can you make a repair? Like, if this woman called this man in his 50s, would that change it? Would. I want to hear you both.

[Dawn]

One thing that I want to say is about the meaning that one makes of themselves, you know, so it's like, what. Like, you know how we said each child is so different. So in that moment when that happened with his mother, what meaning did he make about himself? What did you sign to him about himself? Like, what is he think about himself? What does he think about his mother? What is the. On a bigger scale, what do I. Is the world safe? Do they think I'm a joke? Do I matter? And so for me, at the base of all of this, it's like, what meaning did I make? Because another child might have that experience and say, f you, Mom, I'm waiting. Get your butt over here. Right.

[Tammy]

So that another child might not be as hurt.

[Dawn]

Right, Right. So it's. And like, we don't know. Like, the kids, they. Your soul comes in as you. As you are. And we have lessons, and maybe that is a particular lesson in this lifetime that he has to process. So I think looking at having him look at the meaning he made about it, and then, yes, the repair can happen. And it's a beautiful thing if you get an apology. I mean, that is ultimate. But you can't always have that. And so the work is like working on yourself to say, to really parent yourself again, to make that part inside of you that was so broken or hurt or whatever, meaning that they made about themselves resolve that I feel that abandonment.

[Robyn]

I mean, to me, it's like in my world, I think of eras of omission versus being in somebody's face. Like, commission. Being in their face and being, what are you doing? What time are you coming home? All of that versus not. Those are the ones that get forgiven in therapy. Those are the ones that are always forgiven. The eras of omission, not showing up, being left and it goes dark, and you're the only one in the room. And don't I have centrality? And where's my mommy? And am I not special? And those are ouch. Those ones are ouch. And those ones are very hard to forgive. And I'm gonna shout out to you, Gwyneth, because when you first moved to our school and there was like, I'm driving, like an hour and a half away to come to go to some soccer game when our kids were babies. And I'm thinking, who in their right mind is doing this? And then here, this Miss Movie Star pulling up, and I was like, how the heck is she coming? And I think as a woman who works and all of us have careers, I think being very mindful of showing up and nothing's more important than that date you have with your Kids.

[Tammy]

Yeah.

[Robyn]

Nothing.

[Emily]

Nothing.

[Tammy]

And you never get that back. And, like, of course we have regrets of, like, there are certain things I'm sure we all could not get to or. But I wanted that to be the end. Absolute exception instead of the rule. And I remember being, like, at Spence playing volleyball and seeing my dad and Mr. Cudahy, Julia's dad, like, up there on the thing, like, cheering us on and how full you feel and how loved and how whole. And so I think my dad did provide that for me when he could. I think this, too. You know, you take these jewels from your own childhood, and you want to, like, extrapolate them out for your own, you know, it's like you take them as a lesson. My dad probably went to that one volleyball game. But in my mind, like, I don't know. I think it's interesting to hear you say these errors of omission and how.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Why are they so hard to recover from?

[Robyn]

Because I think it says I don't matter, that my parents have made a choice, and that doesn't mean go to every game. And I think, like you said, Tammy, the pendulum has gone from children, Mercina not heard, and that benign neglect to hovering and intrusive and slow down, back away, you know? But I think that you like that feeling your dad gave you of, I'm cheering you on, I'm here. You are important to me. You're important to me to show up and be here. I think that's why on the therapist couch, the errors of omission, I have a hard time penetrating those. The errors of. Oh, go. Oh, she was too in your face. She told you, get a haircut. You know, she was. Dawn. She was like, sorry, I shouldn't have said that. But I said it right. Those ones are very, you know, they're easier to love and forgive. Easier to love and forgive.

[Dawn]

You mentioned something about boundaries earlier. And, like, what's too much? You know, like, the older overindulging and I'm curious to know, get your opinion about boundaries and how you use them in your life. Because I often. I was raised in a strict home, and I was very, like, afraid, you know, to do something wrong. So I hid. You know, I might hide things. And as I said before, the kids feel like they can come to me with absolutely anything, but we have really firm boundaries as well. And I think it's such a fine line like that. Like what you said about the eating and the chewing is that. Where does the line. Where do you all draw the line with that? How does that Play out in your house.

[Emily]

Well, in our house, for me, I had very simple rules raising them. I'm like, you need to be kind to your siblings. As hokey and as simple as that sounds, you need to be kind. You cannot whine. And then I learned from another therapist that that's like, you can't say that.

[Robyn]

But I did.

[Emily]

I was like, I can't deal.

[Tammy]

Wait, why can't you say that? I cannot. I couldn't.

[Robyn]

Yes, you can say that.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Robyn]

You can actually ignore a wine and it goes away. You want to teach tone. You don't want a whiny adult.

[Emily]

Okay, so. And it was just.

[Robyn]

Feel free, Dawn. Thank you.

[Emily]

It was always a really simple rules to live by. Like, just be nice to your. You have to be nice to your siblings and you can't whine. And it's so funny because there's a picture that my eldest daughter, Kendall painted when she was in preschool, and it was like, my job is to take care of my sister. So it's like. But it is. And I think for me, the boundaries of just really clear. Just be as kind and be good and don't whine and communicate it's delivery and speak your words and express how you feel. Be afraid of it. I also, like, in my house that I was raised, it was very free. There weren't rules. And look how that turned out. And I think I've. Exactly. But I do think I've carried a lot of that freedom into the way that I parent.

[Tammy]

The good part.

[Emily]

The good part of it, where you have all the freedom in the world until you fuck up. Because if I can't trust you, that's when I will become very heavy. I will give you lots of freedom. And my. You know, somebody asked me the other day, like, have you ever punished your kids? And I was like, no, me neither.

[Robyn]

I was just punished.

[Emily]

I've never punished.

[Dawn]

It doesn't work.

[Robyn]

It doesn't work. I was just thinking of that the other day when I was thinking about that punishment, like, you're grounded.

[Emily]

But I was never punished either. Like, it was just. I wasn't raised, so.

[Dawn]

No, it doesn't work.

[Emily]

It doesn't work.

[Dawn]

It doesn't work.

[Emily]

Punitive, like shaming. It doesn't work. And so I think for when you talk about boundaries, there's always been the boundary of just treat me with respect, and I'm going to treat you with respect and treat your dad with respect, and he'll treat with respect this kind of unspoken expectation of goodness.

[Robyn]

Yeah, it's so funny when you say punish, I was thinking, so I have my oldest son that's 32, and. And then I have a middle one. And when my middle one was very, very little, he lied. And he had never done it before. I'm talking like kindergarten. Yeah. And I remember the instinct was like, how I would have been parented. You know, something would have been taken away, there would have been some consequence. And I remember thinking, instead of punishing lines, what about teaching the value of honesty? And I said in school, like, if there's gonna be a call, a close call at a sports event and you're on recess, which kid do you trust to tell the tr? And my kid in kindergarten had the answer.

[Emily]

Interesting.

[Robyn]

And I remember being shocked. He's like, oh, I'd never tell. This guy wouldn't. And that's. I was like, well, who do you wanna be in that? So who do you. And that really landed for him. It really landed of like, oh, and teach the value of how cool integrity is, how cool kindness is. We made kindness cool. We made honesty cool. But punishing, it just makes you a sneakier liar completely. It's so bananas to punish. It's like, think about br or any of your husbands who I know, and you walk in and you mess up and like, I'm going in your closet and I'm taking away all your shoes. I mean, how inspired are you to step up, right? You're like, screw you. So it just like so, so many of the.

[Dawn]

It's just so gently performative earlier too, which is not to teach your children and like, guide them, like shame or punish so that then they're performative. You want them to be their most authentic selves. And if you guide them too much and you're like, you can't do this, then they're just performing. And that's, you know, I had to really untangle that for myself so that I could teach that to my kids. Because you don't want them afraid. You don't want them to try to take care of you, and you don't want them to be afraid to tell you the truth.

[Acura Ad]

Acura's all new adx, a compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything to escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in.

[Dawn]

Hey, Google, turn it up.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Okay.

[Emily]

Turning up the volume.

[Acura Ad]

And crafted to be heard with an available Bang and Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy Acura Precision crafted performance. Google is a trademark of Google llc.

[Tammy]

How did you effectuate that in your house with them?

[Dawn]

I think the way it started with my eldest was just always saying to her, you know, you can always tell me the truth. And, like, I didn't always like to hear everything that was going on, but I think because of that, we have this really incredible relationship. I mean, I cry thinking about her because she's still, you know, away at college and she's very, very honest with me. And I think that honesty creates confidence. And with Billy especially, you know, since he was very young, I'm very close with all my children, and Billy just is someone who's always been very, very honest. But I said to him early on, and you know about this, like, if you feel like you want to share something with me about who you are or who you are in the world, like, please tell me. And he always said, no, mom, no, don't worry. But I always, like, gave him that, like, please don't feel like you have to be someone for me. Because that was my biggest fear, that any of my kids would feel that way. And then as, you know, like, slowly and gently, he came out and said, mom, I'm gay. And I felt like it was such a.

[Tammy]

We're like, we know.

[Dawn]

Yeah. We're like, oh, really? But just like that moment, like, ah, I guess I did something right because he feels safe in us. And you were a huge help with that, Gwyneth. Very supportive and wonderful. And then of course, Charlie's just sort of like, I'm gonna do what I want. And I'm like, oh, okay, all right.

[Tammy]

And I think what was interesting, just, I think, you know, your husband is like, cut from a slightly more conservative cloth. So I don't think it was you that he didn't want to, you know. And that's the interesting part too. It's like we're parenting with a partner. These men, well, for us, they're men, but, you know, or most people are parenting in some kind of like two parent situation, even if they're not under the same roof. And sometimes there are different principles, different values. I think it's lucky if everybody agrees on everything.

[Dawn]

And to your point, I think, like, when you choose to marry someone, and I was pretty young, when I was 28, 29, it's like I always knew with my marriage, like, this is a really principled person and with shared values. And I knew that that was what I wanted to parent with. And then you, you know, 20 years later or 15 you're always like, wait, I want to parent like this? Or I want to talk about the world like that. And it's different, but I think it's also beautiful because then your kids get to see like no two people are ever going to totally agree. I know that we talk a lot about, you know, you want to co parent and be on the same page. Okay, we try that. But it's okay for your kids to also see different perspectives and different angles. As long as there's always that mutual respect.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Dawn]

And so I feel like we've done a really beautiful job in that way, you know, just having different perspectives but honoring one another and parenting despite differences of opinions and things. Yeah, but yeah, he's.

[Tammy]

There's always so like, there's always an interesting. I don't know, it's always so interesting to me, like what comes out of the challenging situations. Like you, Andrew is your stepson technically.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Robyn]

But he's all mine.

[Tammy]

He's all yours. But like came from. You passed through a really difficult period when you were first together with his dad.

[Robyn]

Yeah. So my husband was married at 30 and his wife died of cancer at 32 and he had a baby. And that baby is one of my favorite men on the planet Earth. That baby is a 32 year old magnificent man. But when I showed up, everyone kind of felt sorry for the kid who lost his mom. So they went. So if he would be, my husband would say when he would like grab a toy in the preschool, when every parent would say oh, give it back, he'd say, oh, let him have it. And so there's a parenting to the fragility or there's a parenting to the strength. And for him I was very clear sighted when I showed up that I'm gonna love this kid as to the great to my biggest capacity to love. And I'm also going to really parent to the strength and not do this coddling to the weakness. And I had an experience when he graduated college and he was in New York and I went to meet him for dinner and I remember like he called my Uber, he opened the door, he was helping me in the snow, I was wearing heels and I was like, had dinner with him and I was like, wait, I'm having dinner with my favorite human. It's my kid. Like, I was like, we have come so far. But it was really. And my husband saw where the growth needed. And I learned a lot from my husband who was so gentle and kind and principled and we really, we had a very bumpy Beginning. You know, actually, my original book, Persian Parent, was called hate me now, thank me later. I used to say, I take cleared the plate. He goes, I don't do dishes. You do now.

[Dawn]

Hang me now, thank me later.

[Robyn]

Like, you just. And it's just.

[Tammy]

You do now.

[Robyn]

And you know what? I was very conscious of not using the word step. I was like. He'd say, oh, I'm gonna have a stepchild. I was like, these. There is no half. We're all hope here.

[Tammy]

I know. I have.

[Robyn]

I don't like that one.

[Tammy]

I don't either.

[Robyn]

It's separating. It's like. It's just too. I'm so into words these days. It's too. It makes you feel left out. And in this lifetime, you are three brothers and crazy good friends. And I'm with you, Dawn. I'm like, your siblings are your best friend. And that PR campaign from birth, it was working. They travel together, they go out to dinner, they double date together. I mean, it's just frickin adorable.

[Dawn]

Speaking of stepparents. Cause, by the way, I loved that podcast between you and Brad. It really moved me, and it was incredible. And I think it probably helped a lot of people.

[Tammy]

You know, the reason why I think I wanted to talk about it is because it's. It's a subject that a lot of people. There's not a lot of resource out there for, like, what other people go through, how to do it, what it's like. And I. I don't really know how to do it. Like, I'm still learning, but I. I learn all the time. But I did think it was. You know, I wish that I had been able to tune into a podcast like that back in the day when I was trying to figure it out. And.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And I agree.

[Tammy]

I think it's funny. It's like there's this mythology even around the word, you know, it's like this. It carries this negative. What has a worse connotation than stepmother? You know, it's like, it makes you feel like you're in a Disney movie, right? You know, like, so versus bonus mom. You know, I don't like that either.

[Dawn]

I don't know what my dad is.

[Tammy]

I like how you said it. You said, he's just my dad. That's your mom.

[Robyn]

I just. Really. Well, I just remember when he was using that language, I just was very conscious not to use that language. And it takes down the wall, you know, it takes down that sense of other. And I think when you get divorced, there's so many charged Feelings and there's so much abandonment and loss. And I think to add to it with this kind of labeling of separateness, it just doesn't work. So what do you call them in your family?

[Tammy]

I don't know. I mean, I say like the kid, like. Cause also I don't wanna step on Brad's ex wife's toes, their mother's toes, like, you know what I mean? It's just like I feel like it's just a fraught scenario. It's like if I'm saying they're my kids, then I don't wanna. You know what I mean? So I usually just say all our kids, we have four. It's easier when I say we have four together. But I feel so close to my step kids and I love them so much. And it also like, you know, but that's. That was my point that through those difficult relationships with kids, like maybe like your client who said like my kid bugs me. I think there's so much richness in mining.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Why?

[Tammy]

Why heat is history.

[Robyn]

Why he does history? Because when you're that triggered, it isn't about your kid.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Robyn]

And I feel so strongly that when somebody comes in and they're so charged about something that their kid is doing, the answer is inside the history. You know, take a look back. What is this reminding you of what is unresolved in yourself.

[Dawn]

Work on it, get you neutral and then be an adult. I love that reference that you made about stepping in saying, wait, I have to always be an adult. You can apologize and you can make mistakes, but for the most part, if that's coming up in you go take care of yourself and then come back into the room and show up as an adult, that really helps me. Like I'm not in my reactive mode because we all can be. And to pretend like we're not, like, that's just silly. And so you had all of these big feelings, you know, when you were raising these four children together. But I loved you made some reference, like I had to like just be my adult, you know, instead of, you know, looking the other way or having another conversation. And I thought that that's so beautiful.

[Tammy]

I learned so much from it. And I think who said at the beginning, like how much they learn they have learned from being a parent, like about themselves, about something you did.

[Dawn]

Yeah.

[Robyn]

It's amazing.

[Emily]

You learn so much. You have to be open. You learn so much about yourself. And I also think honoring too what I loved about the group of us all coming together. There's not a mom guide or a dad guide. You know that there's no manual. And I think I loved the rawness of our conversations and being like, what the fuck do I do? Because she snuck out of the house again and I know she's not tummy. Just to have a place as a human being to unload all these big things.

[Tammy]

And then you're not being judged by because it's us. Right.

[Emily]

And then you're like, well, like, how do you navigate this? And I think it's just constant dialogue and constant conversations.

[Robyn]

And I think trust is such a big word. I think so many people come at their kids with a lack of trust. Like, I'm going to give you a breathalyzer when you get home versus I.

[Emily]

Threaten that all the time.

[Robyn]

Did you really? I was like, you have a great head on your shoulders. I trust you to make great choices. You've got this. And the energy is, oh, my parents believe in me. I believe in myself.

[Dawn]

So true.

[Robyn]

It's a different energy around it. I really. It goes along with the non punishment, I think.

[Dawn]

Yeah. Teach them to trust themselves by saying, I trust you. I trust you.

[Emily]

Right.

[Robyn]

And I do. Don't you trust your kids?

[Dawn]

I do. I do. I didn't always back in the day. I do. Now I do.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I wanted to take a moment to talk about the pieces that I've been reaching for in my closet lately from our April G Label collection. At goop, we care deeply about quality and craftsmanship. The way something feels, how it moves, the subtle details. We use the most beautiful Italian fabrics. Luxurious, versatile, and made to last. This collection is full of timeless transitional pieces. Fluid skirts, a perfectly cut blazer, easy dresses you can throw on and feel instantly pulled together. They're the pieces that I have been living in and will be living in as the season shifts. You can explore the beautiful new collection along with some of our past [e-mail] G label use code GLABELINSIDER for 15% off your first G label purchase.

[Tammy]

Who were you each before you were mothers?

[Emily]

I think I was someone who was always missing a part of me. I was always who I am. But I knew I came into this world knowing I wanted to be a mom. I very much wanted, from the day I was born, six children. I wanted a big family. I wanted to manifest a really happy life. I wanted a hectic, crazy house. So I think I was a person who was longing so for me. When I had my children, it really was a selfish act because I was fulfilling something for me. And they really have Well, I always.

[Dawn]

Wanted to be a mom, and I was really excited to find that person, but I definitely put off finding that person because none of the men that I dated were the right one. And it was like when I, Richard and met him, and I thought, oh, my goodness, you're the guy that I want to do this with. And I always had a career. But I thought, okay, when I get married, I'm going to raise my children. And I think the hardest part about having children, and I have three, is that there's so much around you like, well, you're not just a mother. Let's be more than that. And the pressure of doing that. So I think. I think before when I was. I had a career, I thought, oh, now I'm going to be a mother. And that sense of, wow, this isn't enough. I'm not enough. And in hindsight, I wish I hadn't felt that way because just showing up for them would have been enough, you know? How about you?

[Robyn]

I agree with you, Dawn. I longed to be a mother. Med school, med school. I was like, I wanted to be a mom, but I like when you asked that, I thought, I don't even know who I was before children anymore. They are my entire life. They are the people I love most in the world.

[Emily]

Me too.

[Robyn]

They are my anchor. They're my identity. They're my loves. And I have so much more capacity to love because of them. I have so much more joy because of them. Everything is more calm because of them. I was so. I was less evolved, you know, they'll school you fast when you become a mother. They'll teach you.

[Emily]

I know.

[Dawn]

What about you?

[Tammy]

It's funny, like, I had this crazy big free life before I had my kids. I was like, traveling and I was learning so much. I was living in different cities and filming and, like, banging a Listers, you know. And I sort of look back at that time and I had this incredible, like, sense of lightness and adventure and this untethered, you know, I would go from working in this country to working in that country and. And I really loved that chapter of my life. And I felt unmoored. I felt like I didn't have real purpose. And I'll never forget my friend Drew said she was talking about when she had her daughter and she. We were talking about, like, that feeling and how it just shifts your orientation. And she said it so perfectly. She said, like she said to all of her first, when she was talking to her, she said, I was born the day you were born. Oh, and it's sort of true.

[Dawn]

It's like it changes you.

[Tammy]

It does change you. You birth into yourself, you know, and it's like.

[Emily]

That's beautiful. You birthed.

[Robyn]

That's what I was trying to say. And you said it beautifully. You birth into yourself.

[Dawn]

Part of their DNA is left in.

[Tammy]

You, actually, if I. I agree.

[Dawn]

Right.

[Robyn]

Well, they change. You could look on my brain.

[Dawn]

Changed me completely.

[Emily]

For sure.

[Tammy]

They do what's on the brain scans.

[Robyn]

You could, like, love on the brain. Like, it. You can see love on the brain. I mean, it actually changes your. Why wouldn't you. You've birthed this person. They become you. I love. Can you repeat that line? That was so good.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I don't know what I said.

[Emily]

I lost it.

[Robyn]

I lost. But it's. It's anger.

[Tammy]

Birth into yourself.

[Robyn]

It's anchoring. And I think that's what happens when. You know, I'm an empty nester. When they leave.

[Emily]

No, A free bird.

[Robyn]

As she's reframing a free bird.

[Tammy]

Let's reframe, by the way. It's horrible. I'm just gonna say.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Go ahead.

[Robyn]

Christmas, I have to say, when you have that love that we all had of being mothers, and we were all very present and very in the room, and then they go. I was just. All my adult kids were with me on a couple weeks ago, and when they left, I said to my husband, no, where are they going? Like, they're going back to their lives. So I think when it becomes so anchoring, I do feel it is a little rudderless when they come in. They come in with such a bang, and your whole life is different. And when they leave, you're still a mother, and you're always a mother, and you're a mother forever. But that sense of being there.

[Emily]

Oh, my heart just hurt when you're sitting there.

[Robyn]

Sorry. Sorry to give you bad news. Don.

[Tammy]

Are you. Do you. Because you. Your youngest has gone to. Is the same grade as Moses and Brody, who were all. The three of them all in school together. So we are free birds together at the same time for the first time. How are you? Because it's sort of an oscillation, right? It's like some days. I don't know. For me, anyway, some days I'm like, this is great. Like, I can. I don't know, like, not pick someone up from school and, like, go to a museum or, like, say yes to something. And then more of the days, I'm like. Like, I don't. I think right now I'm having Such a hard time with it right now.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I don't know what it is.

[Tammy]

It's like this. Is it spring? Is it. I don't know. But do you find that. Are you just always bummed or are there.

[Robyn]

No, I think it's, you know, you. The kitchen's clean in a way. Nothing's moved. There's no Hot Pockets. Yeah, there's. You don't have to. To work around school schedules and any. You know, in the same way where we. You know. I think there's a. I don't want to say loneliness. It's a longing to be with someone you love and you love that person and you got the privilege of being with them every day. And then they're. But, you know, it comes back. Adult children, like my oldest son. I mean, it's strange. Like, if I had a dilemma, he would be an interest. He'd probably be my first pick of a guy to ask or any of my. To be honest, they're people I would turn to for great. So it's a different. The relationship shifts, but I think people don't give enough air time.

[Dawn]

What is it that you miss the most?

[Tammy]

It's like sometimes I just feel like there's no air or no joy. It feels like on a bad day. And I have lots of good days where I'm like, I'm fine, and I'm so proud of them and they're doing their thing. And I love Brad so much, and we're chilling. But, like, on the hard days, I feel, like, depressed. I have, like, a deep sadness, and I feel like everything is really quiet. And I do think this. Where the hormonal thing is not my friend. Because already, you know, we're going through this incredible change, this, like, momentous, this physiological change that's, like, representative of your lack of reproductive viability. And then the children are. And, you know, there's like, obviously a real, like, endocrine piece of this. And. And by the way, like, anxiety, menopause anxiety, which. And all this terrible stuff or perimenopause or whatever the fuck I'm dealing with. And I think it compounds the bad days quite a lot. Or maybe they're tied together. Maybe I dip because of hormones. And then I feel. But I just feel it's like the joy goes out.

[Robyn]

I think that's so honest.

[Emily]

And for 18 years, you have your kind of guard up in a beautiful way of keeping this safe space for them. And they come in, they come out, they're friends. The drama, the this. It keeps you as Much as in the moment, you're like, can you get the fuck out of my bedroom?

[Robyn]

I need to go to bed.

[Emily]

Yeah, but there is. It's just. Even the sounds and it's just the quiet. I mean, I have fun.

[Tammy]

And it makes your, like, it makes light. You hear the door and you light up, right? It's like your adrenaline goes and your endorphins go. And Brad said it so interestingly, he said that I'm gonna like butcher it. But his observation was something like. I have been so. My nervous system has been so tethered to them and what they're doing and they're. I'm sort of ruining it. He said it much better.

[Robyn]

But.

[Tammy]

But it's so. I think the upside is your nervous system starts to down regulate, right? Cause it's like when they're little and someone. You hear the door or the phone or this or that, you're like, you know, or the stampeding boys come into the house and, you know, like, it's a lot of energy, it's a lot of adrenaline, and then it's quiet.

[Emily]

And I also think there's something to honoring too. With bigger families or when you have more than one, you sort of feel that loss with each one that goes. So I keep saying, you know, to you, you've already had Tammy, you've had one daughter leave, but when the second one goes, it doesn't get any easier. And it's like a loss in another way. Like each child, each young adult that leaves the house, like you when Apple went, you feel one thing. When Moses goes, you feel it. You know, for me, it's like having three of them, four of them now out of the house. It's like you kind of go through it each time.

[Tammy]

It's like a death, it's like a grief.

[Emily]

Whereas, you know, like, well, you still have a 13 year old at home. I'm like, of course I do. And he's awesome. But I have four adult who are like, not home anymore. That every day I'm like, can you please come home? But you know, there is. It's really. I love how you said that so. Because it. You. You kind of. The joy goes with each one.

[Tammy]

Yeah, it does.

[Emily]

But with deep love comes loss.

[Robyn]

I mean, they're paired. You can't love someone that deeply and then expect to be unchanged when they leave your house.

[Tammy]

I don't know, I think it's like to demystify things and also I just. This idea that we're supposed to be okay and, you know, find Our way through. It's really hard. I mean, you're lucky you still have two out of three at home.

[Dawn]

Well, Billy's graduating this year, so he's leaving. And I'm really sad. And I identify with everything you're saying. The lack of joy, even with just Emily being gone. I compartmentalize things.

[Tammy]

But she is so fucking funny.

[Emily]

She is.

[Tammy]

You know, it's like, it's fine if you have a dud. You're like, okay, go to college. But Emily's like a full comedian.

[Dawn]

But all my kids are like that. They're all these like spark plugs and so much joy. I mean, that's the word. And I was in post fires, you know, we had been displaced and then we went to Paris and our hotel was on fire. I mean, I started sobbing and sobbing and I was like, am I really upset about this? What am I upset about? And I realized cause I kept saying, richard, I want to sleep in the other room with Emily. So we were on spring break together. I want to sleep in the other room. And he's like, well, it's kind of our vacation too. And I was like, but I want to sleep with her. I want to. And Billy was like, mom, what's up with this? I'm like, I need to be with Emily and I need to be with you.

[Tammy]

And then you're leaving.

[Dawn]

And she's like, wow, okay. And then Charlie's like, mom, I'm still here. Okay, I'm still here. So I feel that. I really, really do. It's painful as hell.

[Tammy]

It's painful.

[Dawn]

Yeah.

[Emily]

You raise them to be these free birds and to be independent. And then when they go off, you're like, oh, wait, can I take it back? Can you come back home? But it's exactly, that's what we're doing.

[Dawn]

So how do we remedy that? Like what? I know you're doing a lot of self reflection right now, but. But what do we do to keep that joy besides waiting for them to come home?

[Emily]

I think you. It's a bit what you said that you wish that Robyn, that you could go back in time and sit and watch the 2 year old or 3 year old play or however you worded it. I think you make times to do that now as they're adults, make the time to watch them as adults. They're so cool and kind of watch from afar or close up if they'll come home and admire your. Your big kids are going off into the world and doing amazing things. And it's almost like when you Feel that loneliness or sadness. It's like reverse it and reflect it back on yourself and make it pride because they're doing these amazing things because you gave them those tools. And it's really like making the time to be with these adults because. And I think it's also the other thing that we haven't talked about too. I think a lot of this is the awareness of, of our own aging.

[Tammy]

Yes.

[Emily]

And I think that we have to be really clear on that.

[Tammy]

Like that's the part there's a big transfer happening. Right.

[Robyn]

But I agree with you. The adult kids. My son comes home and makes a better meal than I could ever make in my entire life and is. And the energy comes back and I just witness it with awe and enjoy. Enjoy and enjoy. And be present and their thoughts and their ideas so true.

[Dawn]

And keep the community of our women friends. Like that gives me so much joy.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Tammy]

Yeah, I think that's like, I gotta watch that, you know, because I'm. I moved and I know. Look how mad she is.

[Robyn]

Why'd you do that?

[Tammy]

I know, I know.

[Dawn]

We miss you.

[Tammy]

I know. I miss, I really miss you guys, you know, that's sort of, I think, I think that's a good call out actually. I think I need to sort of.

[Dawn]

It brings so much joy to connect because we're all in this together. You know, the way that we always used to have our dinners and we like, it made us. It does feel good to connect. And I think at least for me, when I connect to my girlfriends who are like minded, it's like, it really fills my cup.

[Tammy]

Yeah, you're right. And it's interesting too. Cause like my closest girlfriend in Santa Barbara has a one year old and a five year old, you know, so it's like we adore each other. And it's like when I go for a hike, it's like I have bedtime, I have bath time. I'm like, no, enjoy, enjoy. You know? Know. Yeah, it's like, I'm taking this one to school. How about this? I have a parent teacher. I'm like, honey, I boy, do I get it. And I'm like, I guess I'll just sit here and do emails, you know, I have very dry lips.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So I've always been something of a lip balm and lip mask connoisseur, if I do say so myself. So I wanted to make the best, best ever lip mask. Like better than anything on the market.

[Tammy]

Better than anything I'd ever tried. Because it's what I needed.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's why I'm excited to share our newest Goop product with you. The Nourishing repair lip mask. Formulated with high performance clean ingredients, this mask delivers clinical grade results, increasing hydration by over 160% with just one swipe. The result, smoother, softer and more protected lips that look as good as they feel immediately and over time. At Goop, we believe in beauty as wellness. That's why our products are carefully crafted to be clean, holistic, and results driven. To try our nourishing lip repair mask or any of our Goop beauty products, use code goop [e-mail] for 15 off your first goop beauty purchase. I'm really excited for you to try our products and I hope you love them as much as I do.

[Tammy]

Do you guys have like, moments when you reflect back on and it doesn't have to be us, any of us in the room, but like where you've really relied on another mother to get you through something. Oh my gosh, like a specific thing.

[Emily]

I had. I mean, for me, it would be both of you because my daughter went through a phase where she wouldn't tell me anything and I was petrified. I didn't know what was happening. So I needed to rely without ever. Neither of you ever did betray her confidence. But I needed to rely that you two were doing that part of mothering for me because she wasn't allowing me in and I really had to because I think, you know, for me, there's no ego involved in being a mother. There just isn't. You have to check that right at the door. And I needed to hand the reins over to both of you and know that she was going to be safe because she was talking to you, too.

[Tammy]

She was talking to us.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah. In a time in her life where she wasn't talking to me or telling me things. And so, yeah, I definitely.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Interesting.

[Emily]

I've had that. And I think that village is so powerful.

[Tammy]

The village.

[Robyn]

I think that village is so powerful. And I think if I were a young mom today, I'd be thinking, who's my village? Yeah, right. Who are those people? Like, you know, who's. If you have a really sporty kid and you're not a sporty dad, go find that sporty, you know, like, who's your. Who's your village? I love how you said you relied on them to be, you know, supporting.

[Emily]

Your daughter, parenting, like, mothering them through a stage where I couldn't do it. I couldn't reach her. But you got. You did. And you helped Then helped me. And I remember also the other thing that was so helpful. One of when we had our mom squad and we invited in the psychiatrist to come to our one meeting and he gave me the best bit of advice. And it was where he said, I want you to go to the worst case scenario and envision that and put that child on that raft and send her on out and she's away from you. And there it is. There's nothing you can do. She's already out there. I'm paraphrasing in the wrong way, but I think also when we as a collective group of moms were struggling, we sought to bring in outside people to help us also parent.

[Tammy]

Yeah, that's true too.

[Emily]

Which was really helpful. And you had given me the teen coach at the time to help me. And I think it's just having a network of women who you feel comfortable enough and they can recognize when they say, you know what? I think you might need a little help in this situation. Here's a number to somebody. And so those. That was very helpful for me.

[Tammy]

How about you guys?

[Robyn]

I just love that image of the raft. I love. Because there's like fear and faith.

[Emily]

Correct.

[Robyn]

You know, and when you love this, motherhood is a key. You're so irrational because you freaking love your kid so much. If someone else lied, they're not a sociopath. Your kid tells the first line. They're a sociopath. Right. They're gonna like you just go from 0 to 100%.

[Emily]

They don't answer the phone. They've been kidnapped.

[Dawn]

That's right.

[Robyn]

It's so.

[Tammy]

Oh, my God.

[Emily]

It's so.

[Robyn]

And that. Just to see that raft. Okay. I can observe it and just. I love that image. Thank you for that.

[Tammy]

That's a good one.

[Emily]

I wasn't mine. He wrote, he said it.

[Robyn]

I love it.

[Emily]

But it was helpful.

[Dawn]

I would say. You said, who is another mother?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

[Dawn]

I would say probably the most helpful besides my village. And let's just say that is very, very high up there on the list. I would say that my mom reflecting back to me that I was like, whatever I was struggling with. So, like, you always say that Charlie is me because I'm like, who is this kid? He doesn't listen to me. He's so strong willed, you know, And I'm just like. And my mom's like, oh, you don't remember? You know when you. And she'll tell me. And I go, oh, my gosh. And then I have so much compassion. And I'm like, charlie, we're the same. He's like, we are not the same. I'm like, we are. So I think my mom reflecting back to me, like, you forget that you were like that. Because I want so much for it to be different. And it's like, it's gonna be okay. So I love that. And then of course, Richard's mom also will be like, well, Richard was like this when he was that age. And I'm like, oh, isn't that like, reference? And she's just calming. So I would say, my mom and my mother in law for sure.

[Tammy]

That's so nice. That's so evolved.

[Robyn]

I have a best friend who's a psychiatrist who keeps me two psychiatrists, and she literally. We check each other and we always do. It's a weird friendship where you can be completely. You can't do that. Don't do that.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Robyn]

Thank you for telling me. Nobody's insulted, everybody's grateful. It's a very safe space to parent. And we've always kind of been that person. I think it's incredibly important to find that person. And very lucky when you do. And no offense to the movie star thing, but it's like, are people really telling the truth? And I think you found people who did, but I think it's like, people, it's like, if your kid is doing something, you want to hear about it. We're the moms who want to know. And so my girlfriend and I, we had a really funny joke. Like, she'd give me the side eye. And I was like, oops, shouldn't have said that. Shouldn't have mentioned that kid was dating that kid. I guess you don't say that in public when you have a teenager, you know, so it's like, I just think that's the beauty of them, of the group.

[Dawn]

Absolutely.

[Tammy]

That's so sweet.

[Robyn]

How about you?

[Tammy]

I mean, I think I relied on Dawn a lot because she had my first as a girl like yours, but she. But like, you have boys. Tammy had a girl first, but they were the same. Apple and Emily are the same age and girls are a different animal to boys. And dawn had two girls ahead of Devin, Apple and Emily. And so you would tell me what was coming around the corner. And so, and that was really, really helpful to me, like, understanding, you know, whether it was, you know, when Apple started having what now, what I then was able to see is separation anxiety when she. It was like spring of senior year. And dawn was like, oh, yeah, they do that. Like they need. It's separation anxiety. They break up with you, like, it's okay. Or you know, when Apple went to college and like I remember calling you one night, literally heaving, weeping, because she had done it twice before, you know, and it was like there was just that thing of like, you know, she's just done like whatever she had cleared the path and done those things. I think it's really helpful. Like Julia from high school, her sister's 10 years older than us and she always used to say too, like less on the mothering, but more when we were young, like, this is gonna happen. And I like knowing, yes, I like that forecast. You know, I like it too.

[Robyn]

And I like my older children started doing it for my younger children. Like when my baby went to middle school and my oldest son said in my middle, this is the bottom of the barrel. Just, just brace yourself. Rather than the like rose colored, like, oh, you're starting middle school. It's like, this is as bad as this is the worst chapter. And I was like, that's good forecasting. It normalizes it, the expectation. Yeah, it's a good forecast.

[Dawn]

Absolutely nothing can prepare you for when your first goes nothing. It is a heart breaking, it's like a shattering of the heart.

[Tammy]

It's weird, isn't it? It's really. I'm still struck by how, yeah, it's and now you know why people like, oh, you're gonna have an empty nest. It's not gonna be so bad. Like I'm gonna to Cabo for the weekend or something. You know, I walk around the house.

[Emily]

Naked all day long.

[Tammy]

Is there anything you guys would have done differently?

[Robyn]

Looking back, how long do you have? I, I, I think it's so interesting because I'm actually been thinking a lot about that recently that I knew to like do safe and be safe and be loving and set loving limits and be have a bridge of communication. But I didn't think there was a simultaneous like parenting to mental wellness script. There was a parenting to the strength, not the fragility script. There was, but you did. You've got this kid. Right? But I'm really clear when I'm coaching parents about not being perfectionistic, not, you know, just letting you know. I was recently with a lot of parents and I was like, just let them struggle. When in doubt, stay out, leave them alone, don't speak. I wish I had done a little more. When your kid is going to light a match for the first time. Oh, that could be hot. I would have just stayed away, stay quiet until just been a little bit more. But you love Them again, you love them so much, you jump in. I would have been a little bit more mindful of not jumping in so much.

[Tammy]

Yeah, I feel like I did that too. I still catch myself sometimes, you know, filling in blanks. Like, I wish, you know, I'll still like, oh, how was the party last night? No, instead of leaving it there, like, did you see so and so, was it fun? Did you. Did you.

[Robyn]

Blah, blah, blah.

[Tammy]

You know, it's like, why? And then I'm like, why the fuck am I talking?

[Robyn]

Literally, why are you talking right now?

[Tammy]

Like, it's so invalidating. I'm like, sort of infecting them with my. You know, it's like, I hate when I do that. Like, I wish I could go back and never do that. I wish I had the restraint to ask a question and just let them speak.

[Emily]

I'm gonna work on that.

[Dawn]

I have that too, for sure. And I would say for me, if I could change anything, looking back, it would be really worry less. Because worrying is like, it's like a negative meditation. We always say, like, when you worry and you worry, it's like, that doesn't help. And I worried a lot every step of the way. And I think it always turns out. It always turns out okay. It really does. Even if they've gone through the most gut wrenching, horrible experience. And I. This. I don't know if I told you this story, but Emily was in a really bad breakup and her friends had called me.

[Emily]

Which one?

[Tammy]

Yep.

[Dawn]

Okay. And she. Her friends. And she's really strong, you know, Emily and her friends from college called me and said, she's not okay. We need you to come. And I thought, wow. So I just hopped on a plane and I went to see her. We stayed at a hotel together. And I was just holding her as she was crying and she was really, really struggling. And in that moment, there was like some kind of like, God moment for me because instead of being so worried with her, I just said, you're going to see. This moment that hurts so, so bad is going to be the thing that. That catapults you into being a different kind of person. You're gonna choose differently. You're gonna see it. It's not gonna be now, but that moment of it's going to be okay, I promise you. It hurts so much, but it's gonna make you a better version of yourself. And so I wish I had more moments like that where I wasn't worrying with her. Like, co worrying and being like, you've got this. We can trust that this is. It's hard. And then later it gets better. And it's a gift. Like, I'm not going down that road again, or I don't need to do whatever it was that I was doing that made me so sad or so difficult.

[Emily]

I think for me, it's similar to what you said, Robin. But I say it, and then I don't really know that I have the opportunity right now to act upon it. And I still pack DJ's backpack. And I know I should end. He's in seventh grade, but I'm still like Gavin getting all his stuff. So I think maybe I should work on, like, not always fixing everything and let it giving them more space to fix on their own. Although I do feel that my five children do have the great skills at fixing. But it kind of goes to what you both said. But I say it and I'm not sure I can really help myself because it's my personality too. I kind of. And again, it maybe goes to the part of me that's not fully healed. I go to. I parent in the way that I'd want to. You know what? I want to heal. So I jump in to fix for them or I do call and ask the 5001 questions. Where'd you go? Who'd you see? What'd you do? So I would like to work on that.

[Robyn]

And I think that's the beauty of being a mindful parent is I'm in the same thing too. Gwyneth. I'm like, why am I speaking? Yeah, stop talking.

[Dawn]

You're not supposed to be perfect. It's just progress, right?

[Robyn]

And.

[Tammy]

And do you guys find that it changes? Like, okay, we can ask dawn because she's always ahead, but does it change? Like, so, I mean, we. Some of you guys still have kids at home. Some of us are new empty nesters. Some of you are impending ish empty nesters. So, like, what happens later? Like, when they're out of college and.

[Robyn]

Like, you want the forecast?

[Tammy]

You told I want the forecast.

[Robyn]

It's really fun. Yeah, it's really fun because you're kind of like, we make dates to go out with our adult children. Like, we'll go out to dinner and I'm like, giddy in the car on the way there.

[Emily]

Like, we're all going to stage coach this weekend and I can't wait. And I'm bringing all my kids and their boyfriends and everybody. It's like you create these really rituals and rituals or, you know, this year was the first year two of my children weren't able to come home for Easter. And they both were like, we are never doing that again. We're always going to come home for Easter. So I think it's just keeping the rituals going and the consistency and always make home wherever home is the desirable place to come back.

[Dawn]

And they do. Your kids always want to bring people back.

[Tammy]

I know.

[Emily]

Your kids always want to be home, too.

[Robyn]

And it's very much the lottery when you get parents who love you and stay in the room and are mindful, like, it's you just for the vet, you're, like, cradled in love, and then you just take that with you for the rest of your life. Like, that becomes, you know. So I think that. I think that's. I think we all did that part piece. Could we. I could write an entire book about, you know, when in doubt, stay out and stop talking.

[Tammy]

Maybe you should. Maybe you should.

[Robyn]

And it's almost done. Literally.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Literally.

[Robyn]

It's a book of this is what I would have done. And it's a lot of that. It's a lot of, why am I talking right now?

[Tammy]

Right? I know. I think we have this. It's like this impulse that we want them to know that we see them and we're invested and, like. And I just. I don't know. Sort of a theme that's emerged from this chat is like, this letting go, right? This, like. Like. I mean, it's just incremental letting goes all the way, right? It's like they. They come out of your body or however they get to you, and then they're not in your body anymore. You're like, you know, and then they stop nursing. If you're nursing. And then they go to preschool and it's like each one in increments. And I think there's a way to take more subtlety to that. Let go of this need to impress upon them that you're there, that you need to answer a question for them or that you need to pack their backpack. Maybe if we had been better at letting go, then it wouldn't be so hard now that they're gone.

[Dawn]

The same question.

[Emily]

Yeah. I think it should be really hard.

[Robyn]

To let him go.

[Emily]

I agree. And I think, also, I think even though they're out there in the world and they're doing their own thing and maybe we don't have to micromanage everything but freaking call my kids every day, I'm still gonna be that annoying mom.

[Tammy]

I do, too.

[Emily]

I can't help myself. And I'm not gonna change who I am. So I think part of the.

[Dawn]

I think you want to avoid the pain and the discomfort because it's like the two juxtaposition of the joy. It's like that's what life is.

[Emily]

That's what life is.

[Robyn]

I think that's a sign of having loved madly, you know, and deeply.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I want to take a quick moment to tell you about our latest Goop Beauty product. Launch the three times Retinol Eye Lift Serum. We took everything people love about our best selling retinol serum and reimagined it in this beautiful hydrating formula made just for the delicate skin around your eyes.

[Robyn]

Eyes.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's powered by our triple retinoid complex to visibly firm smooth lines and deliver real clinical results that get better and better with time. And it comes with this cooling metal applicator that feels amazing. I've been using it religiously and I've truly seen a difference in the texture and tone of the skin around my eyes. To try the new Eye Lift serum or any of our Goop beauty products, use code goop [e-mail] for 15% off your first Goop Beauty purchase.

[Tammy]

I have so many more topics to talk about with you guys and I.

[Robyn]

Think more self compassion of, you know, we really put our hearts into it and we made a ton of mistakes and we're gonna apologize for those mistakes. And we're gonna continue to apologize for those mistakes. I think the more as opposed to. Why am I talking? It's okay, I'm talking. Okay, I'm talking. Maybe I'll let my child.

[Tammy]

Right. Maybe I'll.

[Robyn]

Yeah, maybe I'll lovingly pass the baton.

[Tammy]

I mean, I think you're right. Like, I think we're reacting to our own childhoods. Like we said, you know, the both the positives and the negatives of our own childhoods. And then there is not Emanuel. I mean, I remember. I remember after having apple and I don't a really complicated birth, as you guys all know. And so I was there for a couple days and then I said to Chris, like, are they just gonna like.

[Emily]

Let us go home.

[Tammy]

Let us take this baby home. Like, where is the grown up?

[Robyn]

Like, what are we.

[Dawn]

You need a license to go fishing and anyone can have a baby.

[Emily]

That's so crazy.

[Robyn]

And there should be classes. There should be classes. You're about to be, you know, parents. Let's talk about and I think marriage. Yeah. It would be so helpful to forecast podcast. What's up ahead? That's coming. Those are coming.

[Dawn]

You know, something That I learned a lot from you, Gwyneth, is that being a parent, it's like. It's so hard. The balance of being a parent is so hard. And the thing that I never learned, that I learned so much from you, is like the self care. Because taking care of yourself while you're taking care of these other human beings and your spouse or, you know, and more, it's just. You're just bleeding out. I always, like. I felt like an octopus, like, in all these, you know, tentacles going out and, you know, just learning, really learning how to care for yourself. Not just, like, physically, but also from the inside out. And that's, like, been a huge journey for me and what I'm interested in, too. But I think it's. You have to know how to take really good care of yourself.

[Tammy]

I think that's right. And it could be a bath, it could be a therapy, you know, session. It could be a book. It could be just carving out time to. I think, you know, what does happen is you lose your inner life a little bit when you're a mother. You know, it's like. And that's been an interesting part of having them out of the house is that I'm like, oh, I feel like the tingling of my inner life, you know, so that.

[Emily]

And space.

[Robyn]

What do you do with that new space? What were you gonna say, Tammy?

[Dawn]

Just like, the recognition that I had, especially with starting with Emily, was like, wow. The way that I was raised was so different than the way that. Not only how I wanna raise, but it's like you do it. Like you overcorrect. And I recognize so much the overcorrection. Like, I couldn't talk to my parents about anything. Or I chose not to because I had to be so good and so perfect. And so for Emily, I'm like, tell me everything. I want you to share with me. Like. And then she would. And I was like, whoa.

[Tammy]

Okay.

[Dawn]

I'm like, that's a little too far, you know? And I'm like, you be you.

[Robyn]

Like, how do you.

[Emily]

How do you look?

[Dawn]

How do you want to look? And she's like, I'm making my hair, you know, my hair black. And, like, we look alike, Emily and I. And I'm like, okay, let me hold onto this. It doesn't matter, you know, what the color is or what they dress like, or it's that how she feels inside. Or I'll say, you know, can we. Those clothes are really baggy. Sort of like, really baggy. And, you know, mom, this is cool. I'm like. And she teaches me. You're not cool. Like, I'm so not cool.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right?

[Tammy]

So I think that latitude that. Especially with girls, which is obviously different for you, Robin. Cause you have boys.

[Robyn]

Three boys.

[Tammy]

Yeah, Three boys.

[Emily]

I have one.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You have one.

[Tammy]

But I'm. But in terms. Poor DJ the Squeeje. Four girls and a boy over there. But I think especially with. I don't know, you know, I think with boys, too. I mean, the letting them fully express themselves without the judgment or the side eye or the wince. Like, sometimes, you know, that's. That took. That was a practice, I think, right, because you think back to, like, what you were talking about in our parents, generations. Like, I think we were a reflection of them. And that was pretty much it in a lot of senses, right? It's like if whoever we were reflected on them and they lack that kind of space to understand. Like, no. We were our own people with our own identity. And I think they are well loved when they feel that they can express themselves without judgment. Right.

[Robyn]

100%. I think that whole shaming culture, you're talking about, that nuanced part of parenting, like, I just remember, like, my teenagers thinking, you're not gonna look back with fond memories of this when you look at pictures, when you're just not gonna, like. But I'm not saying a word. When in doubt, stay out. Shut your mouth. Zip it, Mom.

[Dawn]

Oh, okay, Right.

[Robyn]

Would you like me to schedule a haircut? No, it looks great. It's that distance. I'm not you. I celebrate you. I meet you where you are. I see you. And I think that's what this generation of parents actually, I think we did really well with that.

[Tammy]

But what is the advice, like, when a parent feels that trigger, right? Or like, oh. Cause it could be even about something. I mean. And I guess you have to play with the line, right? Because, for example, like, if a child was like, oh, I chew with my mouth open at the table and interrupt everyone. Because that's who I am when I'm expressing myself, right? Like, no, but at the same. Like, so how. How do we walk that.

[Dawn]

The boundary.

[Tammy]

Yeah. Like, what's the.

[Emily]

I can't help myself. So I always have to say it so truthfully. But then I recognize it now. And it was funny this past week, Devin, who is the daughter who brought us all together, said to me, I can't believe you let me wear fake nails all the time. And I was like, what are you talking about? I kept saying to you the whole time, like, oh, My gosh, these nails.

[Robyn]

And.

[Emily]

And she doesn't have any memory of that. She just is now looking back at the pictures. And I think that as long as you say your feelings within in a loving way, I think it's okay to be like, poor DJ right now. This whole new hairstyle with the boys, it's all fluffy. Like, they, you know. And he's constantly doing this. I'm like, d, you gotta get a haircut, but it's in a place.

[Tammy]

Did you say that to you the other day? Like, why'd you let me dye my hair?

[Robyn]

Exactly.

[Emily]

I let him. He bleached his hair.

[Robyn]

But how lovely of you to be that brave. To just let him be and to let him own. That's powerful.

[Emily]

I think that's the key is allowing our children to just be. But I think you also have to honor who you are. Like, I have a big mouth. I have to say what I feel, too. So I think there's just. It's that line of not shaming, but.

[Dawn]

Also telling and knowing each kid is so different.

[Emily]

So different.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

This conversation made me think about all of the forms that motherhood can take and how often it's in the quiet, messy, in between moments where connection really lives. Sitting with this amazing group of friends remind me how very vital it is to have other mothers to lean on, to reflect with, to laugh with, to feel understood by. There's something deeply grounding in those conversations. There's no perfect way to mother. The beauty is in showing up again and again with love, with humor, patience and compassion for ourselves and one another.

[Tammy]

Happy Mother's Day.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Teen Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.