Stop Believing Everything You Think

Summary

Summary of "Stop Believing Everything You Think" Episode of The Goop Podcast

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Goop Podcast
• Host/Author: Goop, Inc. and Audacy
• Description: Goop CEO and founder Gwyneth Paltrow hosts the brightest thinkers and culture changers.
• Episode: Stop Believing Everything You Think
• Release Date: July 29, 2025

---

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of The Goop Podcast, Gwyneth Paltrow engages in a profound conversation with Adam Grant, an organizational psychologist, Wharton professor, and New York Times bestselling author of Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know. The episode delves deep into the themes of rethinking, overcoming the fear of being wrong, and fostering open-mindedness in both personal and professional spheres.

---

The Need for Rethinking

[00:25 – 04:10]

Adam Grant initiates the discussion by sharing his motivation behind writing Think Again. He reflects on his lifelong struggle with admitting he was wrong, citing a childhood experience where a friend refused to speak to him until he acknowledged his mistake. This personal challenge extended into his professional life, where he observed similar resistance among CEOs to reconsider their approaches, particularly highlighted during his attempt to introduce the "Remote Friday" experiment three years prior.

Notable Quote:

• “The thesis of the book is that people generally assume that if they're good at thinking, they're going to be good at rethinking. And that's not true.” — Adam Grant [04:10]

Grant emphasizes that intelligence can sometimes hinder the ability to rethink, as it allows individuals to rationalize their beliefs rather than question them. This is crucial in a rapidly changing world where adapting and re-evaluating knowledge is essential to avoid becoming obsolete.

---

The Trap of Identity and Beliefs

[05:06 – 06:13]

Gwyneth prompts a crucial exploration of how individuals often conflate their opinions with their identities. Adam explains that many let their ideas define who they are, which helps maintain self-esteem and social predictability. However, this also leads to resistance against doubt and change, trapping individuals in echo chambers where their beliefs are continuously affirmed without room for growth.

Notable Quote:

• “We let our ideas become our identities, and it sort of makes sense. Right? It's a way of maintaining a healthy level of self-esteem.” — Adam Grant [05:06]

---

Logic Bullying and Communication

[14:49 – 17:16]

The conversation shifts to the concept of "logic bullying," a term Grant uses to describe the aggressive use of logic and data to dominate conversations and prove others wrong. This approach often backfires, leading to resistance and conflict rather than constructive dialogue. Grant shares his personal struggles with being labeled a logic bully by both students and his wife, highlighting the importance of balancing logic with empathy.

Notable Quote:

• “I'm a recovering logic bully. If I give people their guard up, I’m diluting my own argument.” — Adam Grant [16:53]

---

Overcoming Fear of Being Wrong

[06:49 – 09:51]

Gwyneth and Adam delve into the underlying fears associated with being wrong. Adam posits that society's celebration of certainty and the misinterpretation of confidence as competence fuel this fear. The stigma of being perceived as wrong can lead to social and professional repercussions, making individuals hesitant to admit mistakes or reconsider their viewpoints.

Notable Quote:

• “We live in a world that celebrates and rewards certainty and often mistakes confidence for competence.” — Adam Grant [07:53]

---

Application to Societal Issues

[08:30 – 12:02]

The discussion broadens to address how binary thinking exacerbates societal divisions on contentious issues like abortion. Adam offers strategies for navigating such polarized debates, emphasizing the importance of humility and the distinction between opinions and identities. By seeking common ground and exploring the complexities of issues, individuals can move beyond simplistic dichotomies and engage in more meaningful conversations.

Notable Quote:

• “I want to see the shades of gray. I want to find the areas that we agree on and try to be a little bit more nuanced.” — Adam Grant [12:02]

---

Cultivating Open-Mindedness and Confident Humility

[18:52 – 32:45]

Gwyneth and Adam discuss the concept of "confident humility," a balance between self-assurance and the willingness to acknowledge and learn from one's limitations. Adam shares practical steps for individuals and leaders to model this trait, such as being open about uncertainties, seeking diverse perspectives, and fostering psychological safety within teams.

Notable Quote:

• “Confident humility is to be secure enough in your ego to say things like, I might be wrong. I don't know.” — Adam Grant [32:21]

---

Imposter Syndrome: Challenges and Advantages

[23:20 – 29:04]

The conversation turns to imposter syndrome, particularly its prevalence among women and the unexpected benefits it can offer. Adam explains that while imposter syndrome can drive individuals to strive for excellence and remain curious, it often disproportionately affects women and people of color due to societal pressures to continually prove their competence.

Notable Quote:

• “Imposter syndrome as just your confidence being below your competence creates a gap where you feel like, okay, I have something to prove.” — Adam Grant [24:04]

---

Personal Applications: Marriage and Parenting

[37:13 – 44:44]

Adam and Gwyneth share personal anecdotes illustrating the principles discussed. Adam describes how his wife, Alison, serves as his critical yet supportive partner, helping him recognize and correct his mistakes. Gwyneth reflects on her own experiences as a parent, emphasizing the importance of modeling rethinking and vulnerability at the family dinner table to foster an environment where mistakes are seen as opportunities for growth rather than sources of shame.

Notable Quote:

• “If you can cultivate a feeling of that vulnerability is okay, and you're not going to be humiliated by being in a debate, then you're fostering a space for rethinking.” — Gwyneth Paltrow [40:05]

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Gwyneth expressing gratitude for Adam's insights, highlighting how his research and personal practices have influenced her approach to leadership and personal growth. Adam reinforces the importance of maintaining a balance between confidence and humility, encouraging listeners to embrace uncertainty as a pathway to continual learning and improvement.

Notable Quote:

• “Confident humility means you're confident that you can learn tomorrow.” — Adam Grant [32:45]

---

Key Takeaways

• Embrace Rethinking: Constantly reevaluate your beliefs and be open to changing your mind.
• Separate Identity from Opinions: Avoid letting your ideas define who you are to maintain flexibility in thinking.
• Avoid Logic Bullying: Strive for empathetic communication rather than dominating conversations with logic.
• Overcome Fear of Being Wrong: Recognize that admitting mistakes is a strength, not a weakness.
• Cultivate Confident Humility: Balance self-assurance with the willingness to learn and grow.
• Leverage Imposter Syndrome: Use feelings of inadequacy as motivation for improvement rather than letting them hinder your progress.
• Model Open-Mindedness: Demonstrate vulnerability and openness in personal relationships to encourage the same in others.

This episode of The Goop Podcast provides invaluable insights into the art of rethinking, offering practical strategies for personal and professional development. Adam Grant's expertise, combined with Gwyneth Paltrow's thoughtful questions, makes for a compelling discussion that encourages listeners to challenge their own beliefs and embrace the transformative power of uncertainty.

Transcript

[Adam Grant]

When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

You do? Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand. On the other hand, everything could be addictive. If there is, there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers, here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. This week, we're sharing a gem from the GOOP Podcast archives. My guest today is the brilliant Adam Grant. Adam is an organizational psychologist and a beloved professor at Wharton. He is also a number one New York Times bestselling author. And his latest book is called Think again. The power of knowing what you don't know. Adam and I talked about why people generally fear being wrong. He says that we live in a world that celebrates certainty and often mistakes confidence for competence. We also talked about why intelligent thinkers fail to rethink a concept and how this limits their potential. Adam explains the trap of letting our ideas become our identities and how we can find common ground with one another while navigating a charged topic. You'll also find out why Adam is a recovering logic bully. Last, if you can hear it. I'm sorry about the background noise in the very beginning of the conversation. That's just some work from home life for you. So let's get to my chat with Adam Grant.

How is everything?

[Adam Grant]

It's kind of fun to launch a book and go on book tour sitting in one place. So that's been the highlight, I guess. How about you?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

It's kind of amazing, especially when you have kids at home, right? And you're not going from one plane to another.

[Adam Grant]

Love that I can be in nine countries in one day.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, my God. Did you start writing this book pre quarantine?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, it was an accident.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So tell me about the inception of it.

[Adam Grant]

I've had a hard time admitting that I'm wrong for most of my life. As a kid, my friends called me Mr. Facts. My best friend in middle school one day hung up the phone on me and said he Refused to ever speak to me again until I admitted that I was wrong. And then, you know, fast forward a few years, and I'm seeing the same thing in all the people that I work with. Three years ago, I tried to get a bunch of CEOs to run a little Remote Friday experiment, and they all said, no, thanks. And of course, if they had been willing to try that experiment, they would have had all of 2018 and 2019 to figure out how to make remote work work when we weren't working, while we're taking three kids through online school and trying to avoid Covid. And I think seeing that resistance to rethinking in myself and also running into brick walls over and over again made me think, all right, somebody needs to tackle this.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

How would you describe the thesis of the book?

[Adam Grant]

I guess the thesis of the book is that people generally assume that if they're good at thinking, they're going to be good at rethinking. And that's not true. In fact, the smarter you are, often the worse you are at rethinking, because you can use your intelligence to contort the truth into what you want to hear and what you want to believe. And I think this is important because we live in a rapidly changing world where it's possible to become an expert for a world that doesn't exist anymore. And the. The slower we are to think again, the more likely it is that we're going to be wrong. A lot.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

And is it because you mentioned the thing about intelligence? And I think, you know, you, you, you mentioned in the book this great thing about being a logic bully, which I thought was so funny.

[Adam Grant]

Guilty as charged. I might even become a logic bully at some point in this conversation. And if I am, please call me out.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

No, I'll be so honored to be bullied by your brilliant logic. It'll go on my resume. But I'm just wondering a little bit about how this happens, because I was thinking of you the other night at the dinner table, and my teenagers, they are rethinkers. They're learning and they're open. They've not gotten to that place where they're calcified in their thinking or they're right. Right. It's extremely, kind of agile. And so what is the kind of data that we gather throughout our lives to convince us that we're right? And what happens to us? Do we conflate opinion with self?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, I think so many of us let our ideas become our identities, and it sort of makes sense. Right? It's. It's a way of sort of maintaining a healthy level of self esteem. Right. To feel validated. It's a way of, of making the world around you more predictable. Right. If you were rethinking every single opinion that you had, you would feel like you're just living in chaos. And it's also a way to fit into your social circle. Right. If you let go of your beliefs or admit that you're wrong, then you risk exclusion from whatever tribe you happen to belong to. And I think over time, a lot of us, we come to prefer the comfort of conviction over the discomfort of doubt. And it's easy, right, to say, all right, I'm just going to listen to the ideas that make me feel good, not the ones that make me think hard to surround myself with people who agree with my thought process, or, excuse me, to surround myself with people who agree with my conclusions, not the ones who challenge my thought process. And I think that's such a travesty because over time we get trapped in a filter bubble or an echo chamber and then we're just affirming our beliefs, which is not learning, we're not evolving, and it's incremental.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

I mean, people get convinced slowly as they go along that they're more and more right.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, I think we're great. We're great revisionist historians. The, the term for it in psychology is the totalitarian ego, right? Where there's this mini dictator living in your brain, trying to control the flow of negative, negative information and shield you from it. The same way that Kim Jong Un would, would keep out bad press in North Korea. And that means that all the times we're wrong, we can explain away, we forget, we make excuses for. But the times we're right, we take pride in those. And that's who I am.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

What is underneath it, though? Like what hurts us so much about being wrong?

[Adam Grant]

Well, I might be wrong about this. So this is, this is just a hypothesis in the spirit of practicing what I teach. But I think one of the reasons it's so painful to be wrong is we live in a world that celebrates and rewards certainty and that mistakes confidence for competence. So there's this, there's this fear, right? I walk around thinking, oh no, if I find out that I was incorrect, then everybody's gonna think I'm an idiot. And that means I can't succeed, I can't make friends, and I'm in big trouble in life. What do you make of that?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think that makes a lot of sense to me. Well, there's certainly. It seems like there's a survival piece to it. Right. Like I have to. My, my. I equate my confidence with survival. I also just wonder how it's linked to self esteem and how much of our lives we spend fighting the idea of who we're, who we're afraid we are, and how much being wrong sort of punctuates that.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, it's my favorite definition of hostility is the one the psychologist George Kelly used where he said that hostility is that sense of aggression or anger that you have toward someone who's convinced you against your will that something that you already know deep down isn't true is in fact not true. And then you just want to lash out at them. Cause you're like, no, no, no. I've been working really hard to persuade myself that that thing I was wrong about, I was not wrong about. And I hate you for making me see the light.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So how would you apply that to, for example, what's going on right now in our country? And this is why this book is so incredibly timely.

[Adam Grant]

I think it's hard. I don't have any silver bullets, but I think there are steps we could take that on the margin might help. So which, which version of our country's problems do you want to talk about, Gwyneth?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well, let's start from the point of what you were just saying, which is somebody basically shines a light on some aspect of a person that they don't like or they've convinced themselves isn't real, and then it's resonant and brought back up. So if you take this binary thinking, you know, take any, any issue that. That's binary, right? Take abortion. So there is a charge to talking about that topic no matter, no matter which way you think and what you believe and what God you believe in and what freedom you believe in, whatever. There is such a charge to that issue and it becomes so incredibly emotional for people so quickly and certainly for cohorts for whom it will have never impact, like men or grandmothers or whatever the case may be. But it's so deeply personal. So I'm wondering if it's true that people get super triggered by some unresolved aspect of them. How does that apply to one of these super hot button binary issues in the way people think about them and why are they so reluctant to rethink them?

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so I think if I were talking to somebody who has a passionate view about abortion that's different from mine, I would probably start by just acknowledging that I might be wrong or my understanding might be incomplete. I want to show humility. I think the mistake that people make when they go into these kinds of charge conversations is they go into preacher and prosecutor mode. I'm right, you're wrong. And then the other person either attacks or shuts down. What I want to do then is I want to signpost the conversation and say, you know, look, I've. I've spent too much of my life as a logic bully where I just bombard people with. With, you know, data and with reasons. And I realized when I do that I don't learn anything. And I also come across as really stubborn, and that's not the kind of person I want to be. And so I would love to hear some of your perspective and try to understand it better and learn from you. And very often what the other person will do then is say, oh, well, you know what? Actually, I'm interested in learning too. And then we've set the stage for a little bit of openness. Then I think the second thing I would do is I would try to establish that this opinion does not have to be your identity. So on abortion, it turns out that if you go back to the late 1960s, views on abortion were not divided on party lines. This is a relatively new ideological position. And I just ask a bunch of questions. Why is that? How did that happen? How is it that conservatives were, you know, were. Were not strongly opposed to abortion back in the 60s, but they are today? And the hope is that as we explore that, you recognize, all right, these beliefs are not set in stone. And once you recognize that. Right. You're a little bit more flexible than you were before. And then from there, what I want to do. You talked about binary bias earlier. We're so good at taking these complex issues and oversimplifying them into two categories. I want to see the shades of gray. I want to say, okay, look, you know what? Let's find the areas that we agree on. We agree that 40 weeks, no abortions. We probably agree also that condoms are okay. Preconception, maybe. Let's find out, and let's now figure out where we draw the line in between. And we can try to be a little bit more nuanced that way.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But something happens to human beings in this process where. And that's what I'm sort of trying to understand is something happens along the way, where even in a conversation that starts from a relatively open place, although nobody's going to approach it as you are, unless we take your class and read the book Which I hope everybody.

[Adam Grant]

Will try it at your own risk.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

But something happens in the course of these conversations where that kicks in. Right? The resistance kicks in and the certainty kicks in. And so is it possible to parse the fear piece or the fear of the ego piece from the actual subject at hand? And how do we get back to the actual discourse?

[Adam Grant]

Yes. Okay, good. So I'm thinking about the psychology of self affirmation, which is about how when, if I were to question your beliefs about abortion, neuroscientists would say you might feel like you've been punched in the mind. There's a literal activation of either your fear circuitry or, you know, the punishment system. And your natural impulse is to try to protect and defend. And one of the ways that I can preempt that is by affirming a core value of yours to say, hey, Gwyneth, I know that you are somebody who cares deeply about human beings and who devotes a lot of your life to letting people be authentic. And once that's affirmed, it's a little bit easier to question one of your beliefs or your principles, because all of a sudden your identity is more complex than just, I have a stance on abortion. I might start there. And then I guess the other thing that I would be very curious about is the psychology of this that's jumping out for me is this difference between asking why and asking how. So when you ask people why questions, they tend to double down, right? They find lots of reasons to stick to their guns or maybe their gun bans, depending on their ideology. When you ask people how, then they start to see gaps in their knowledge. And so I might shift the conversation a little bit and say, okay, I want to talk about the substance of abortion. Given that there are state rights, right, not just federal rights in America, how in the world would you even go about formulating a policy and advancing your view? And as people start to think that through, they're like, wow, this is really complex. It's probably not realistic to have one dogmatic stance. And so now I need to be a little bit more flexible. And again, the hope is that we can have a conversation then, as opposed to just putting up a wall and saying, that's the end of it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So I guess I should go back to this, because your phrase, logic bully, which I love, I guess the reason that this whole thing makes me. It always makes me think about how our ego plays a role above anything else, above what we actually think or actually believe, and we can convince ourselves, because my tribe believes something I believe in something and in order to try to convince other people, like we try to break other people down with logic. And it's super effective. I mean, if somebody, I think if somebody's coming at something with more of an emotionally driven opinion and they don't feel as articulate to be kind of bombarded with data and history and facts, it really just tends to separate people more. So how, how do we identify if we are logic bullies? Because I don't think any of us walk around thinking that we are, but in fact, we might very well be.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, if you really wanted to get scientific about it, you could start to track your own conversations. So I don't, I don't know that anybody wants to do this with the level of precision that, that we like in social science. But we measure things like question to statement ratios, right? And you see that if you're only giving answers and you're not asking questions, then you're probably more in logic bully mode. Another I think, hallmark of being a logic bully, and I know, because this is what I do all the time, is like, okay, I just realized that somebody seems to be wrong about something that I think I'm an expert on and it's my moral responsibility to correct them. And then what I'll do is I'll start giving them 14 reasons. And not, not only am I, am I making it clear to them that I'm trying to influence them, which leads them to put their guard up, but I'm also diluting my own argument. And if they're resistant to what I'm about to say, then they'll just pick the least compelling reason number 12 and just throw out the whole case on that basis. Right. Whereas if I gave them my two strongest reasons, I'm less of a logic bully. And I'm also not giving them an easy excuse to, to just say, nah, I don't buy it.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh my gosh, that's so funny.

[Adam Grant]

But I think the real way to tell that you're a logic bully is you're in a conversation with a student who calls you for career advice and she says, Adam, you're a logic bully. Thank you for telling me. I didn't know that. And then maybe a week or two later, my wife told me the same thing. And she said, not everyone wants to have a three and a half hour argument about the future of self driving cars.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

That's probably true.

[Adam Grant]

You know, I don't even think I want to have that argument, but when I get into it and I think somebody's Wrong. I just. I. I love this cartoon where there's a guy who's sitting at a computer and he can't sleep, and the little thought bubble is like, someone is wrong on the Internet. That's. That's the story of my life.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Oh, my gosh. I think that's the story of my life too.

[Adam Grant]

Is it?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I mean, sort of. When I was sort of doing my own inventory around my own thinking. I think what you're saying is so interesting because I do think that if you're able to cultivate a feeling of that vulnerability is okay, and you're not going to be humiliated by being in a debate where somebody's going to, you know, out logic you or be super didactic or dogmatic, and there's no point to it. It's really interesting how this flow can come forward between two people. And when you're in defensiveness, it's such a protection. Having an opinion and being right and what you touched on earlier. It's such a safe way to not explore the harder parts of yourself. And I think you can in the workplace, too. And obviously this is an area of expertise for you. But trying to find that balance between, like, leading with that kind of vulnerability or an openness, while also trying to lead and inspire and create boundaries and expectations. I wanted to ask you a little bit about that because it's a difficult balance and one that I'm trying to think a lot about as a leader. So how do you advise people to cultivate that balance?

[Adam Grant]

Individually or in their culture?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Either.

Both.

[Adam Grant]

Well, let's start on the personal level. I think we model behavior every day that signals to people what's going to get rewarded and what's going to get punished. So I think one of the best moves we can make is to be the person we want other people to be. Right? Like Gandhi would have said, be the change. I think what I'm looking for here is to say we could all model a little bit more confident humility, which is to be secure enough in your ego to say things like, I might be wrong. I don't know. I'm not very informed about this topic. And what that does is it sends that message, right? It says to other people, hey, you know what? This is not a sign of ignorance. When you say you don't know something, that's actually a sign that you're not insecure and that you're interested in improving yourself, not just proving yourself. And I think as a leader, if you can take that a step further. I did some research at The Gates foundation, where there was a real interest in creating psychological safety so that people could take those kinds of risks and say, okay, if I ask for help or I admit that I made a mistake, I'm not going to get punished. And one of the things that I found was that when leaders criticize themselves out loud, so Melinda Gates, for example, reading negative feedback from employees out loud, that people felt much more comfortable trying new things, taking risks, rethinking their own views, inviting leaders to rethink some of their assumptions. And I think what's so powerful about being able to criticize yourself out loud is you're not just showing that you're open to it, you're proving you can take it. And I think that's something we need more leaders to do.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So I want to ask you this because I have teenagers, I have two of my own and two step. And as I mentioned before, they are inherently open minded. But, but I'm worried that as time goes on and life goes on and they start to compound being right with being successful and they start to, as we all do. How do you as a parent encourage rethinking or that, that openness in thinking to be part of their foundation?

[Adam Grant]

I think one of the, one of the most effective things you can do is to talk about your own rethinking, right? To show your work.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

The modeling is a really big thing here.

[Adam Grant]

It is. You know, I hadn't realized that was a pattern, but it is. And it's a pattern because if you, I mean, every parent has had the experience of, you know, of preaching at your kids and seeing them do the exact opposite. And they obviously pay more attention to what we do than what we say. And in this case, you could, you could do both at the same time, which is, I've, I've actually, I've started talking with our kids and my, my wife and I sometimes do this at dinner. We'll have a family dinner table conversation about our biggest mistakes. The, you know, the, the things that we were most wrong about. Sometimes it's actually really fun and lighthearted. We had a whole conversation. This is, I think last year where they were, I think they were talking about the solar, the solar system. And it came out that we learned in school that Pluto was a planet. And they were shocked and horrified. How in the world could you think that? They started asking us what century we were from and are we living in the dark ages? And it was a great moment for us to laugh at ourselves, right? To say, you know what? And not part of One of the conversations we ended up having was I said, look, not only did I believe for most of my life that Pluto was a planet, I also was resistant to letting go of that belief because I grew up thinking there were nine planets. The if the solar system isn't what I thought it was, what else am I believing? That's wrong? And that's pretty destabilizing. And so it was a chance for them to make fun of me, for me to make fun of myself, but then to really show, hey, you know what? When you screw up, when you're wrong about something, you can laugh at yourself. And, yeah, maybe you're a little bit embarrassed that you were holding on to an outdated belief, but that's a sign you've learned something in showing that. Right. You're teaching your kids to laugh at themselves, too.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah.

And so important to separate that feeling of, as you say, humiliation from being wrong, you know, because sometimes, I mean, actually, this brings me to another question that I wanted to ask you about, which was you talk about imposter syndrome in the book, and this is something that particularly, I'm not sure about men, but I definitely know that women and my peers, women, CEOs, absolutely feel it a lot. And there's a great deal of energy that goes into covering for that feeling. But you say that there are actually some advantages. Right. To having imposter syndrome. So I would love to hear you explain that a little bit more.

[Adam Grant]

Sure. And I'm curious to hear whether this tracks with your experience at all or the many women CEOs and founders that you hang out with. So this all started when we had a doctoral student at Wharton, Bissima Tufik, who was interested in imposter syndrome, and she decided to study it and look at what impact it had on performance in different kinds of jobs. And she found she basically just measured how often people had imposter thoughts. So how often do you doubt yourself, question your abilities, think that you're not as good as everyone else thinks you are? And she found with investment professionals and medical professionals, there were no costs of having more frequent imposter thoughts. And there were some benefits that investment professionals were more likely to second guess their decisions instead of being overconfident, to say, hey, maybe I don't have all the answers, that physicians were more likely to listen to their patients instead of interrupting them. Yeah, like, huh, maybe I should get a second opinion here. Maybe the diagnosis I was sure of in the first four seconds is not accurate. And I think what she came away realizing is if we define imposter syndrome as just your confidence being below your competence, that that creates a gap where you feel like, okay, I have something to prove. So that motivates you to work harder to close the gap. And then also, you believe you don't know everything, and that keeps you humble, and it makes you curious, and you learn more from the people around you instead of being on a pedestal of expertise. And I think where I landed on this was to say, why do we have to make this into a syndrome, like a chronic debilitating condition now? Yeah. Okay. There are some people who walk around with this, you know, chronic sense that I'm unworthy, I'm a fraud. Everyone is gonna find out that I don't deserve anything I've ever achieved in my life. My professors from 20 years ago are gonna take away all of my grades because I can't possibly have known anything that. That's rare. Right? What's common is the everyday doubt of the, what if I've lost a step? What if I'm not prepared for this role? And having those thoughts is what keeps us motivated to succeed and motivated to learn is my thought. The data did show that women were a little bit more likely to hesitate in the face of those doubts and that men were a little bit more likely to be motivated by them. And I. You know, I'll say, as a white man, like, I generally have had the privilege of walking around in a world where people assume that I'm competent and that I know what I'm talking about. And I can imagine if I had been a woman or a person of color, and I feel these doubts, I'm more likely to internalize them. Right. Because I live in a culture where I have to prove my competence over and over again. So that's. That's where I landed. What do you make of all this?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well, I think it's interesting because I obviously started in one career, and then I went to another where the learning curve was so steep, and I'm learning on the job, which I think underscores.

Any imposter syndrome that would be kind of just baseline imposter syndrome that we all have going through the world. And for me, for example, I've been CEO for four or five years now and have been growing the company. And there are so many days I feel like an imposter, because I remember when I started and I didn't know what certain acronyms were, and it was kind of googling under the table to not embarrass myself. And I was Like I don't know what the fuck anyone is talking about and trying to learn accounting and Excel and banking rules and just things that are, were completely out of my wheelhouse that I never went to school for. I don't have an mba. So I feel like, yeah, I have a really good reason to feel like an imposter. But I think at the same time what hurts is that it's mirrored by people who think an actress, a blonde actress woman who started a company mustn't. She can't possibly know what she's talking about and she can't be close to her business. And I get comments all the time in meetings like, wow, you really, you really, you're really close to your business. Like you understand your business. And so I think, wow. So the, the pervasive prejudgment is that I am an imposter. So I think for me it's a little bit heightened. And I am, or I used to be, in a cycle of feeling, feeling like I have to prove myself and I have to set the table by letting this person knows that, know that I actually am competent and that I do know what the acronyms stand for and that I understand performance marketing and I understand inventory management or all this. But, but then at a certain point I was like, you know what? This is not productive and it's not a good use of my time or energy and I'm actually reinforcing the imposter syndrome by giving it this much contemplation time. But I also do feel that in certain aspects it does keep me in this space of intense curiosity, intense learning, and therefore intense inspiration.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. Oh, that's great. So, yeah, so you're trying to keep it from becoming a syndrome and just say, okay, if I feel these doubts, then I'm going to take that as a clue that I need to work harder and learn more right now. I've always wondered about the confidence spillover piece of this because you've been what, Wendy Darling, Margot Tenenbaum, Pepper Potts for a lot of years, right? Obviously to master all those different roles, you had to build up a certain level of self confidence. Is the issue that it didn't spill over into business and all of a sudden you're in a foreign culture or do you still get some of the, hey, you know what? I learned to excel at one thing. I can probably apply that same grit, that same curiosity, that same eagerness to learn to anything I try.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I think the halo from the first thing is limited. It's a small halo I think that to truly be a founder or to start something, to be an entrepreneur and to have to learn, it's like it was so out of my wheelhouse and I think there are certain things that I could were applicable. Like I do actually think that artists who want to succeed are by nature entrepreneurial. Like nobody believes in you, but you, nobody thinks you're going to be able to pull this off. You know, you have to have more self belief than anyone else. So it's really aligned with what it means and what it to be an entrepreneur. There are some applicable things about culture. Like when you're a woman on a movie set, you learn a lot about managing dynamics and sort of keeping the peace and being a cheerleader. But other than that, to go from my first career into this one, I mean it was, I was totally ill prepared, completely.

[Adam Grant]

Got it. That's very interesting. Yeah, I think in some ways I'd rather see that than the opposite though, which is, you know, I worry so much about it's Tony Stark syndrome. I aced one thing and all of a sudden I overgeneralize that and think I must be a genius at everything.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Right.

[Adam Grant]

Which I see with founders all the time. I had a startup idea, everybody told me I was crazy. It became a unicorn and changed the world. And now I believe that whenever somebody says I'm crazy, that means I must be right and they're all wrong.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I've borne witness to that. That's a very male founder trait.

[Adam Grant]

I think it might be.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's such a beauty in the world dismantling those ideas for you, even though it's so painful at the time. And look, you might be right once and you might have incredible success and you might generalize it, but pretty quickly the world will make you recalibrate. And those are, I mean, for me anyway, those have been the most important lessons in rethinking the way that I think about myself and the way that I'm walking through the world is when there's a level set that happens because, you know, it's also a beautiful thing to believe so wholeheartedly in something and the balance is where it gets so tricky. That's what's so fascinating to me is like balancing self belief and humility.

[Adam Grant]

I think it's for so many people it feels like a tightrope walk and they're worried that I don't want to be overconfident, I don't want to be underconfident. This is what I love so much. About the idea of confident humility, to say, all right, you know what? I believe in myself, but I'm gonna doubt my knowledge, my skills, my strategies. And that way I'm not confident that I've. I've figured everything out today. I'm just confident that I can learn tomorrow.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, for sure. I love that phrase so much.

It sets the. It's like. Sets the tone perfectly. You know, if you think about. If you're nervous to go into a meeting or to do an interview or whatever, it's like if you can just embody that phrase and make it sort of make your molecules buzz like you're set up for success. Right.

[Adam Grant]

Bring it on.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So this is an interesting one. So you talk in the book as well about people pretending to know things that they don't know and that it's a pet peeve. It's tough. This is a tough one. But why is that? This sort of, you know, we have this cursory knowledge of something and then we, you know, exaggerated or why do we. What is that? Like, isn't it so easy to dispel, you know, somebody's knowledge about something or. But it's so sad. Like, why do we do that?

[Adam Grant]

Well, I think the standard explanation in psychology is that when you're a complete novice, total beginner, you don't make that mistake because you know that you know nothing. And then as you start to get a little bit competent or a little bit knowledgeable, your confidence climbs faster than your competence. And pretty soon you're paying too much attention to the rate of your learning as opposed to how much knowledge you've actually accumulated. And you see this. Like, there's a. There's a great experiment that, that David Dunning and I think Carmen Sanchez did with a simulated zombie apocalypse where they have. They have people, you know, they're in the simulation, and there are all these people who have been bitten by zombies and they're taught, you know, how to treat them and cure them. And at the very beginning, like, I am completely incompetent, and they are actually incompetent. And then as they. They treat a patient or two, all of a sudden their competence goes up a little bit and their confidence goes up a lot. And we see this. I mean, we see this with medical residents, right? I think one of the reasons that a lot of people will. Will reference the July effect, with new residents taking over and. And more ethical, excuse me, more medical errors being made is not necessarily because the residents don't know what they're doing. It's because they don't know that. They don't know what they're doing. And that's just a frightening place to be.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Is there a correlation between that and your starting point? Do you know what I mean? So if you're one of these people that start off from a place of not of wanting to come off that you know more than you do, like, is there a correlation between that and how quickly there's that divide between your competence and confidence?

[Adam Grant]

Oh, I. I have. You know what? I haven't seen that studied. I think my hunch is, yes, it's. It's a hypothesis waiting to be tested. But I think, yeah, if you're. If you're a narcissist and you're motivated to believe that you're really great, then it's pretty easy to confirm that and ignore any evidence to the contrary. My favorite definition of. Of arrogance is Tim Urban's On Weight. But why? It's. Arrogance equals ignorance plus conviction. And, yeah, I think if you're an arrogant person, you're. You're probably. You're going to confirm your, you know, your. Your inflated view of yourself. But I also think there's. It's not just. It's not just ego and motivation. Right. It's also information. One of the challenges of. Of living in this territory where you don't know that much is. Is you don't necessarily know what it looks like to know a lot. So there's. There's another study I like, of people who score low in emotional intelligence. They're the most likely to overestimate their emotional intelligence. And it's not just because they want to think they're good at, you know, at knowing what other people are feeling and managing their emotions. It's because if you lack emotional intelligence, you literally don't know what emotional intelligence looks like. And so you can't judge yourself accurately, right?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

So say you're a professor at Wharton and you're tenured since you're 28 and you've written all these bestselling books, and how do you keep yourself in check? How do you keep yourself rethinking? Because you know a hell of a lot and your insights are really profound and you teach a lot of people. You elevate a lot of people. So how do you not let that get to you? Or do you. And then you have a way of unthinking it and rethinking it.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, this is not a hypothetical question, is it?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I don't know if you know anyone.

[Adam Grant]

Like that, but I Recognize the person you're describing. It's not the person I know, but that portrait has been painted. I mean, I do a few things that I found helpful. The first one is I married Alison, my wife, who is the first person to point out when I am wrong. And it happens almost every hour, if not every day. So that's a. That's a regularly humbling experience, which I think we should all have. Alison's my best critic. She is constantly, like, I'm sure you've experienced for most of your career that people look at you and they say, okay, Gwyneth Paltrow. Like, of course I want her to like me. And so I'm only going to tell her the things that she wants to hear. And Alison is the first person to say, like, you have no idea what you're talking about here. I don't know why anyone listens to you. You might want to rethink this. So that's always helpful. And that she's. I would say she's the founding member of my Challenge Network, which is a kind of network we all need. We know the value of a support network, right? They're. They're the people who cheerlead for us, who encourage us, who rebuild our confidence when it's shattered. We need a Challenge Network, a group of thoughtful critics who believe in our potential and push us to reach it. And I have gone to a bunch of people since writing Think Again and said, hey, you may not know this, but I consider you one of the founding members of my Challenge Network. And I know I haven't always taken your criticism well. Sometimes I've been defensive. Other times I've just been distracted or dismissive. But I really appreciate it. And. And if you're ever worried about hurting my feelings, you can't. The only way you can hurt my feelings is by not telling me the truth. And I've gotten much better critical feedback after having those conversations, because people know, oh, well, this is. This is not something I have to be worried is going to damage our relationship. I also, Gwyneth, I keep a running ignorance list, which is just a list of things that I'm clueless about. So I put on the list initially, fashion, chemistry, food, financial markets, art. And it's just a good reminder to say, you know what? There are huge parts of the world that I'm just completely uninformed on. And the hope is then that I seek out people who are more knowledgeable and I learn about those things. But also, I came up with really specific things, too. Like, I Still cannot figure out why you can't tickle yourself. I've talked to a lot of neuroscientists. They say it's the element of surprise. But then, like, you can run the experiment. It's really easy. Go and tell one of your kids you're going to tickle them, and they'll still laugh. So it's not a surprise. Like, what is it? I don't know. And I really want to know. And I think having those. What are called curiosity gaps, right, A gaping hole between what you know and what you want to know, like, it keeps you eager to learn.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Yeah, that's for sure.

I was going to ask you about this way of thinking in a marriage. That was going to be my last question. So, okay, so now we know how Allison operates. But how do you apply this to your marriage if the goal is to have this kind of quality of communication with your spouse? How do you bring this wisdom in the book into a marriage?

[Adam Grant]

I've been learning the hard way that I don't do it nearly as often as I should. I mean, there are days when Allison's like, you wrote the book about thinking again. Really? Really? I. I think the thing that I've found. I don't know, the thing that. That's probably been helpful most of the time, is to. To just go in really clear about what I'm trying to accomplish. So the mistake I make is I'll say, hey, can you read this? Or, you know, like, what's. What's your thought on this idea? And I'm not. I'm not clear enough that I'm collecting lots of perspectives. So what I've learned to do is to say. And sometimes I remember to do it, sometimes I don't, is to say, okay, I value your opinion the most. And that means I'm going to ask you at the beginning and at the end, and I'm going to collect lots of different views in between, because I know some of the things that I'll hear from you are quality, and others might just be taste. And you're not a perfect representation of my audience. And so there are times when you love something. Actually, no, there are times when you like something and other people don't. There are times when you don't like something and other people do. And so if you hear me pushing back, that's not me not valuing your feedback. It's me trying to sort out, okay, how much weight should I put on this particular judgment or opinion? And I think that it's so interesting to Me that when I. When I seek feedback from other people and when they tell me things about my work, I know the first thing I have to do is to make it clear that I appreciated it and that if I didn't agree with it, it didn't mean I didn't value it. But I forget to do this all the time at home because I just take for granted, right, that Allison knows that I always appreciate her feedback, and that's why I keep asking for it. And so I think, just. I think that's something I need to reinforce over and over and over again, is I'm asking you to help me rethink things. That doesn't mean I'm always gonna be open to it, but I want you to keep doing it. How do you apply this in a marriage?

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Well, you know, it's interesting because my marriage now, it's such a critical part of. It's a real building block of my marriage. Like having the capacity and the malleability to rethink and show up with vulnerability and talk about being called on your shit. I mean, I happen to be married to somebody who is so observant. He's so brilliant and so observant and so energetically sensitive, and he leans into intimacy. And I'm like. When I get triggered, you know, I'm like, I shut down. You know? And so he. He's the one that is able to remain calm and give me the feedback that's so hard for me to hear. And hearing those. That feedback at the same time, you're thinking, I don't want to be here. I'm leaving the room. I don't want to feel anything. And I know that this person is right. So at some point, I'm going to have to figure out a way to metabolize all of this at the same time and understand that the purpose of this marriage is to break down these preexisting ideas about myself that I've held on to so tightly in order to protect myself. And so, for me, I'm really lucky because I have an amazing partner who makes me, in a very nice way, rethink these things. He sort of holds me to a certain standard, and I think I do the same for him. But that's what's so interesting, too, about being. Reading this book. You know, as a boss, as a wife, as a mother. Like, there's so much incredible wisdom in the book, and obviously it's. You're a scientist, and it's coming from this place of research. But then there's this really. It's strung together with this really beautiful, human, approachable way of, like, you know, you just make it so applicable. I really, I'm so happy you wrote it, and I'm so happy that I got to speak to you because it forced. It was a forcing function. Like, I better read this right now, otherwise I would have said I don't have time and all. But I just feel like it's, it's going to really stay with me, and it's. It's. It's really amazing. Thank you so much for writing it.

[Adam Grant]

Well, thank you. I hope you don't rethink anything you just said.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

I promise I won't.

[Adam Grant]

Some thoughts should be protected and left alone.

[Gwyneth Paltrow]

Thank you for listening to my conversation with Adam Grant. I hope you pick up a copy of his fascinating book, Think Again. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes with which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.