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- [00:01]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Travel has always been such a big part of my life, and in a way, it's really what inspired me to start goop. I love discovering new places, new experiences, and finding those really special stays that make a trip even more memorable. Hosting on Airbnb is a great way to make the most of your time away. It's a wonderful option if you have extra space, own a seasonal home, or tend to travel at the same time every year. Hosting is incredibly flexible. You set the dates, welcome guests on your terms, and create memorable stays that reflect the warmth and uniqueness you seek in your own travels. If you've ever thought about hosting, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host.
- [00:50]
Acura
Acura's all new ADX. A compact SUV that isn't just built for one thing. It's precision crafted for everything to escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google built in.
- [01:01]
Vanessa Marin
Hey, Google, turn it up. Okay.
- [01:03]
Acura
Turning up the volume. And crafted to be heard. With an available bang. And Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx. Crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance take your vibes on.
- [01:16]
Vanessa Marin
Go, go, go, go.
- [01:17]
Acura
Google is a trademark of Google llc. When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized.
- [01:30]
Gwyneth Paltrow
You do?
- [01:30]
Acura
Yeah.
- [01:31]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Did you hear about that?
- [01:33]
Xander Marin
I didn't find the one.
- [01:34]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I found someone I respected and we.
- [01:36]
Vanessa Marin
Made it the one. In the sort of longing kind of.
- [01:39]
Xander Marin
View of love, people understand each other as if by magic.
- [01:43]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand.
- [01:45]
Vanessa Marin
On the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled.
- [01:50]
Xander Marin
I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life.
- [01:57]
Vanessa Marin
Gwyneth.
- [01:58]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the GOOP Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers. Here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome back to the GOOP Podcast. Today we're talking about something that so many couples experience but don't always know how to talk about. Why we're not having as much sex as we want or thought we would, and what we can do about it. Sex can be one of the biggest sources of frustration in relationships, yet it is often left unspoken. Many couples assume there's something wrong if their sex life isn't what they expected. But the truth is, this is one of the most common challenges in long term relationships. Vanessa and Xander Marin have spent years helping couples understand why intimacy fades and more importantly, how to bring it back. Vanessa is a licensed sex therapist with two decades of experience, and Xander, her husband and a self proclaimed regular guy, helps makes these conversations feel less intimidating and more approachable. Together, they've identified the five biggest reasons why couples stop at having sex. And today they're here to break them down for us. For the purposes of today's conversation, we focus on dynamics within long term heterosexual relationships. But the themes that we explore, desire, intimacy, and connection are universal. I'm so glad you guys are here.
- [03:40]
Vanessa Marin
I'm so glad to be here.
- [03:42]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I don't think I've ever interviewed two people at once for the Goop podcast. So this is a first.
- [03:47]
Vanessa Marin
We're the first. What a big honor.
- [03:49]
Gwyneth Paltrow
I love it. And what, what, what better way is there to talk about sex? And with a therapist and her husband who presumably have sex and counsel on.
- [04:00]
Vanessa Marin
Sex, and that's our big secret. We actually don't have any sex whatsoever.
- [04:07]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Oh. So tell me a little bit about your background and how you and I think you were in. In the tech sector. Right. So how did you get roped into being the sidekick here?
- [04:19]
Xander Marin
Oh, man.
- [04:20]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, I was always interested in this field. It really went back to my parents trying to give me the talk when I was about 11 or 12. It was extremely awkward, like most people's. And I did not know that sex therapy existed as a career back then. But that moment really stuck with me. This feeling of, my parents are super embarrassed. They don't want to be talking to me about this, but I am really curious and I want to talk to them about it. So I kind of kept looping back to that moment until I realized, you know what? I think that might be what I'm here on this planet to do is help people get more comfortable talking about sex.
- [04:57]
Xander Marin
Now me, on the other hand, I had no idea I would ever get into this. I had no intention of getting into this. Yeah, I was working at Google. I was watching Vanessa start to build up her private practice and then start to build up this, like, online business where she could work from anywhere and kind of define her own schedule. And I was like, wow. I just. Something feels missing in my life relative to this. So I decided to just take some time off and figure out what I wanted to do. And it turned out that kind of ended up not going the way I thought it would. It was sort of an invitation to me to like, figure out all the other unresolved things going on with me and kind of coming to grips with, like, who am I as a man if I'm not providing income and stuff? And so I kind of just happened upon working with Vanessa because I was not. I was, I was taking time off, I wasn't sure what I was doing.
- [05:52]
Vanessa Marin
I needed help with an Excel spreadsheet.
- [05:54]
Xander Marin
She needed help. Yeah, yeah, I was the spreadsheet guy. I was the spreadsheet guy. And yeah, so I started helping her out and then I started kind of building out the, like, the back end of her business. And Vanessa kept on me, kept saying, like, hey, like, shouldn't. What if we talked about what's going, you know, our own sex life? What if we told some of our stories? Because we've been through plenty of stuff and I was like, oh, no one wants to hear from me. I'm just a regular guy. Right? Like, I haven't gone to school, I haven't gotten a license, I haven't studied all this stuff. I haven't put all the work in that she has. But, you know, she kept encouraging me and eventually we started sharing little stories here and there and it was like, oh, people actually do want to hear about an everyday couple. Like, it's cool to hear from an expert. But also like, okay, let's talk about how it happens in real life for us.
- [06:44]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Hmm. You touched on something that I want to double click on briefly, which is you were talking about, you know, when you were going through that period of time where you weren't necessarily getting a paycheck and how did that reflect internally on your masculinity? Do you think that now that we're living in a culture and a society where women are more and more the breadwinners, where women so many women are contributing at least equal half to the household. Does that have an impact at all, do you think, on sex in long term couples? I think, and I shouldn't say I shouldn't, like, you know, gender it because it can be obviously women, same sex couples as well.
- [07:26]
Vanessa Marin
But yeah, I mean, that was a really interesting experience for us because we both grew up in pretty non traditional gender families and both grew up feeling like we don't want to have that stereotypical 1950s relationship. Like we want to. To be equal partners and we want to build a life together. And yet we still find ourselves falling into these traditional gender dynamics, despite trying to be so conscious about not doing that. And I think your experience in particular, with not being the provider. Like, you didn't even realize that you had built up such an identity around it until it wasn't a part of your identity anymore.
- [08:05]
Xander Marin
Yeah, I mean, for me, I was completely on board intellectually with the idea of, okay, I'm going to take some time off. The way that we talked about it, it was like, you know, Vanessa was like, you covered me financially while I was in grad school. And so let me do this for you for, you know, a year or two while you figure things out. You know, you've been working for, like, eight or nine years straight. Take a little time off and see what you think. And I was like, great, that sounds awesome. That sounds totally fair. Right? And then it was like, literally the day the paycheck stopped coming in, it was like, oh, my God, I don't. I don't know how to handle this. And so I think it's just. Yeah, it's one thing being intellectually on board with something. It's another actually experiencing it and being like, okay, can I really handle this? And, you know, for me, it took me a little while. It took me probably a year or two to really fully understand, like, oh, okay. The reason I'm feeling unhappy is because I'm still grappling with this, you know, and it wasn't until I started kind of facing that head on. And I mean. And honestly, I think, you know, that impacted our sex life, too, during that time, because I was like, yeah, what am I doing? What value am I bringing to our relationship? And that, yeah, it adds a lot of stress, and stress kills your sex life, so.
- [09:21]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And also, do you think that that kind of. That heteronormative gender role, that perception that the man's sort of virility is tied to the success in the capitalistic paradigm and that that impacts. I mean, because I just wonder, like, what would your advice be then, to men, to how to uncouple those things? Like, how to. You know, because, like, I don't know. Vanessa and I have a mutual friend who. She's the breadwinner, completely in the family. And I was asking her about this one day, and she said it doesn't impact their sex life at all, which sounded so. Because I do have a lot of women friends, especially in Los Angeles, who feel the financial sort of onus, and then they're kind of like, you know, I'm making all the money, and then I come home and you're not helping me, and, like, I don't want to suck your. Like, I've literally heard that as a direct quote before.
- [10:18]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it. For us, it led to a lot of really interesting conversations about what does it mean for each of us? Like, what does it mean for me to be a woman? What does it mean for you to be a man? How are we in touch with our sense of masculinity and femininity? And how do those things come together? But I mean, to be totally frank with you, it really rocked both of us. We were completely unprepared for that. We didn't. I mean, if you had asked us beforehand, is this gonna impact your relationship? We would have said, absolutely not. You know, we're equal partners. Our, you know, our sense of masculinity and femininity isn't tied to these kinds of things. So it. Yeah, it really rocked us a lot. And I think with so many things in life, the only way out is through. We just had to, like, go through that. And I think it helped us each develop a much better understanding of ourselves and each other, which created a lot more intimacy in the long run, but really sucked in the. In between.
- [11:12]
Xander Marin
Yeah, I mean, I. It took me a couple years to realize this, but I needed to find more purpose in my life. I think that was. That was what was missing. And. Because I think the problem is the way not even men are socialized, the way that we tend to be socialized in this society is, you know, is okay. A man is supposed to go get a job, work nine to five, you know, bring home the paycheck for the family, even if his partner is also working. It's like, okay, like what? You're. You're just supposed to. You're supposed to support the family, and then you're supposed to kind of lead in the bedroom when it comes to sex. And it's like, okay, cool. If you're doing those two things, like, great. You're a man.
- [11:53]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right?
- [11:53]
Xander Marin
And then all of a sudden, one of those things was gone for me. And so, yeah, I didn't know how to handle it. And then eventually, once I started finding other purpose in my life that wasn't necessarily tied to, like, my paycheck, like, my paycheck that's bigger than my wife's or something like that, finding other activities that brought my life purpose, finding ways of, like, being of service to other people in our community, it was like, oh, okay, great. Like, this. This is what I'm here for.
- [12:22]
Vanessa Marin
And ultimately, that was the key for me, too. Like, I never cared about the. That he was bringing in the paycheck. But it was that sense of purpose, of, like, doing something with his life. Like when, when you felt like the only way that you could contribute was through a paycheck. Yeah. My, like, attraction to you did start to fade away because you were so focused on that. But once it. Once you were re. Engaging with, like, purpose, it's like that's what the attraction is. It wasn't actually about the paycheck at all. It was about your sense of connection to life and other people.
- [12:54]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah. Because that's how, like, the chi flows. And then that's what's so attractive. Right. It's like you, a man that's, like, connected to himself and like, the vibrancy of, you know, his purpose and then that's super attractive and it doesn't really matter. Right. The size of the paycheck. So let's talk a little bit about. You know, it's always so interesting to me how people want to talk about sex so much, but they feel that they can't. Like, I, I always. When, you know, at certain dinner parties and, you know, when it's a subject like, you see even not in like a prurient way or like a, you know, but just, just in. In an intellectual way about, like, sex or sexuality, you see, like, people stiffen up and I think, think, you know, we're compared to other couples, we're not doing it enough or we're not. We're not fulfilled. Like, I. I do hear that a lot from my friends, and I'm actually really, really surprised at how many of my friends and couples that are younger than we are have really put sex on the back burner. Is this something you're seeing in your practice and what is causing this?
- [14:07]
Vanessa Marin
Absolutely. I mean, as a society, we've always struggled with sex. I don't think we've ever had a point in history where we really were getting it right. But I think now a lot of people are just looking at sex as this more transactional thing, as just a physical act that we're doing. And most of us are really busy these days, and it's very easy, easy for us to elevate those other activities over sex. Like, this is more important than sex. That's just sex. And so we see a lot of couples who are just putting it on the very bottom of the to do list and not making any sort of time or space for it and really struggling as a result of that.
- [14:48]
Acura
Acura's all new adx, a compact SUV that isn't just built for One thing, it's precision crafted for everything to escape the grind. With available all wheel drive to go with your flow. With available Google buil.
- [14:59]
Vanessa Marin
Hey Google, turn it up.
- [15:00]
Acura
Okay. Turning up the volume and crafted to be heard with an available bang and Olufsen premium sound system. The all new Acura adx crafted to match your energy. Acura precision crafted performance. Google is a trademark of Google llc.
- [15:21]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So what is your philosophy around sex or why do you feel sex is important for couples? Do you feel like sexuality is an important part of life?
- [15:32]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, I strongly believe that sex is not just a physical act. Sex is so much more than that. It is one of the most intimate ways that we can connect with our partner. It's one of the best ways that we can show vulnerability with them. And there's also a real side of play for it for me too. Like, sex is the way that we play as adults, like to explore, to be creative, to try on new sides of ourselves. I think there's so much richness and depth and so many things to explore within your sexual connection. It's just, it's so much more than just putting a body part into another body part.
- [16:09]
Xander Marin
Yeah, we always talk to couples about thinking about what makes what makes sex worth having for you. And the answer is going to vary for different people because it's different for everyone. Like Vanessa mentioned play and for both of us, we love having playful energy in our sex life. But not everyone is going to love that. Some people, you know, want more, more serious or more like romantic energy or more kinky energy. And so, you know, it's just, it's thinking through, yeah, what, what is it that makes sex amazing for me? And you know, and very often it's like sex is going to be the way that you tap into that energy. You usually don't tap into that type of energy and in any other way. And so I think it's just, yeah, it's that combination of the physical and the emotional and just fulfilling a need for, you know, there's the physical need, but also just the need for that. You know, whether it's play or whatever energy is maybe missing otherwise in your life.
- [17:08]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And are you observing that people are right now, for whatever reason are having less sex or are settling for less sex?
- [17:16]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, we're definitely hearing about that. Anecdotally, a lot of people saying they just feel like it's not a priority anymore. And especially this last month too. I mean, January was a really gnarly month and we're definitely hearing from a lot of People like, I have no interest in sex. With everything going on in the world, it just feels. It feels like a frivolous thing to spend time on when there's so much going on in the world.
- [17:39]
Xander Marin
Plus, I think there's also a lot of research showing that younger people are having less sex than people who are older used to at that same age. And I think a lot of what's behind that is, you know, fear around, you know, people talking about you and your sex life on social media. There's a lot of, you know, social media has really brought out the comparison game. You know, we all, we all know about the comparison game when it comes to, like, people looking like they're living perfect lives. But a lot of people in the, you know, younger generations are really scared someone is going to, you know, laugh about them on social, you know, when it comes to, like, oh, like, this person was bad in bed. And so there's a lot of fear of just like, okay, well, I don't want to put myself in that situation where, you know, somebody might find out something about me.
- [18:30]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Does, like, the pervasiveness of. Of porn also impact younger. The younger generation at all? Do we know anything about that?
- [18:38]
Vanessa Marin
I don't know of any research like, specifically tying porn consumption to how much sex people are having in real life. But anecdotally, I definitely have heard from a lot of people that it feels like they're getting their needs met in a certain way through porn, where it's just. It's faster, it's easier. There aren't complicated human emotions involved. And so a lot of people are turning to that instead of connecting with real people.
- [19:02]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Are there risks involved with that? I mean, both, you know, sort of isolating yourself to yourself, but also depriving yourself of that energy exchange or whatever you want to call it with another person. I mean, I sort of think those. Those complications are important. And it's how you grow up. It's how you understand your own boundaries, who you are, what you want in life.
- [19:23]
Vanessa Marin
Like, yeah, we learn about ourselves, like, in the. In those messy middles with other people. So it definitely is. It's, you know, it's. It's. We're missing out on a lot when we're just connecting with what's in front of us on a computer screen. And for me, one of the most challenging things about porn consumption is that when most people watch porn, they're actually completely dissociated from their own bodies. They're just paying attention to what's going on on the screen in front of them.
- [19:48]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Interesting.
- [19:48]
Vanessa Marin
So they're not even really that tuned to the porn pleasure that they're feeling in their body, to the nuance of how different kinds of touch can feel to their own, you know, in their own skin. And so it's. It's a very dissociative kind of experience. So not only are you not having that connection with another human, you're not even really having that connection with yourself.
- [20:08]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. So it sounds like it compounds loneliness in a way. You know, it's interesting. I mean, it would. Yeah. I. My friend messaged me the other. Other day and said, because we had posted something on Goop and our piece we did on who I'm sure, you know, and he said to me, apparently, us Gen Xers are the only people still having sex, which is, you know, funny to think about. So what do you think? Like, why? I guess I'll go back to why is it so hard for people to talk about sex? Like, if. Do you guys, like, when you are together, do you feel comfortable saying, like, you know, what I would like to try, or, like, what I would like to do, or what I don't. Like, like, it feels so hard, I think, for so many of us to articulate those things. Are you guys able to do that?
- [21:03]
Xander Marin
It was hard for us for a long time.
- [21:05]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. I mean, to go back to the first part of that question, like, sex is so difficult for us to talk about because we really don't have any role models of it.
- [21:13]
Gwyneth Paltrow
No, we don't.
- [21:13]
Vanessa Marin
Like, I mean, think of the thousands of sex scenes that we've all seen on TV and in the movies. Like, you never see the characters talking to each other about the sex that they're having. Right. So true. It just all happens, and it unflows so naturally and effortlessly. And so when we watch that over and over again, of course we get it in our heads that that's what sex is supposed to look like. If you really have the right chemistry, if you're with the right person, it should just unfold like that. And we were no different. I was in the field already, like, pursuing this career, and still I fell into that trap of, I shouldn't have to talk about it, I shouldn't have to express anything. I shouldn't have to ask for what I want. And so we struggled with it in our own relationship. But I think one of the big problems that comes up for so many people is they hear the idea to talk about sex, and it starts to feel really clinical in their heads. Like, I have to lay out for my partner. Here's my 10 page manifesto of exactly what I like and what I don't like. And these are my boundaries and these are the things that I really love. And, like, I couldn't even write that for you. Like, I couldn't come up with that. So it makes it feel like this very overwhelming task. Like, not only do I have to do something that I've never seen done before, but I have to do it in this level of detail that I can't even fathom coming up with.
- [22:30]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. And is it harder, do you notice, for women than for men to talk about what they want?
- [22:35]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, absolutely. Because as women, we've been socialized to be caretakers and caregivers and to put other people's needs before our own. And so most of us. And I fell for this too. Like, the vast majority of my sex life before I met Xander was all about focusing on my partner. Like, I want to make sure he's having a good experience. He thinks things are clicking. He thinks I'm easy to please in bed, so he gets that ego boost. So we have a really hard time being able to ask for what we want and talk about ourselves. Even a lot of women will tell me, like, I don't even. I can't even pay attention to my own experience in the moment.
- [23:09]
Xander Marin
I think it can also be quite challenging for men, but in maybe in a different way. I know for me, I always, you know, wanted to be good. Good enough at sex. Right? Like, it was something, you know, if.
- [23:23]
Vanessa Marin
I go all more than good enough.
- [23:24]
Xander Marin
Well, you know, I wanted. I wanted to be good in bed, but it was like, I didn't want to draw attention to myself in, you know, in one extreme or the other. Like what? You know, some of my earlier memories of, you know, of sex, I guess, or like hearing kids on the playground saying words I didn't know what they meant. And I felt embarrassed and ashamed. And I didn't feel like I could ask my parents about that because they weren't talking to me about it. And so from a very early age, I had the desire of, like, okay, I gotta figure this thing out. I'm a man. I'm supposed to, like, I'm supposed to know about this, but no one's telling me about it. So I have to somehow figure out how to be. That's why I said good enough. Like, because, you know, it's like, how can I be great at it if there's not an actual manual? It's like, I gotta Figure out enough of how to be okay at this or okay to good and provide it. And once you get to that level, then you kind of form this identity of, like, okay, cool, I'm good. I'm good at sex. I don't have to worry about that. And so then the idea of talking about it where you might unearth things that might be in opposition to your identity of, oh, yeah, I'm good at sex, we don't need to talk about this. That can feel really confronting and challenging. And so I know for me, I wanted to avoid those topics because I didn't want to. I didn't want to out myself as, like, oh, maybe I'm not great at sex. Maybe I still have things to learn or new things to try that might not go perfectly the first time. And so it took me a long time to kind of grapple with that, that it's not. Sex is not something that I just provide to Vanessa. Like, sex is something that we get to do together. So it's not all on me. It's like, hey, this is something that we get to explore together. And sometimes it's gonna be amazing, and sometimes we're gonna try something and it's gonna be just okay. Or maybe it's a flop.
- [25:20]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Like, what. What. What would a flop be?
- [25:23]
Vanessa Marin
We were just talking about this the other day. Somebody asked us, like, how do you bounce back from a disappointing sexual experience? And they were saying, like, they just find it really difficult when sex doesn't go perfectly. Then we said, like, we gotta normalize. Sometimes. You just. It's fine. I'm glad we did it. I'm glad we connected. But it just, like, it wasn't the best sex ever. And sometimes you kind of have a little bit of a reason or understanding of why it went that way. Sometimes it sort of surprises you. Like, oh, the vibes were all here. I thought things were going well, but then it kind of, you know, whatever. But, yeah, sometimes it just happens. And I think that's a really important thing for us to normalize. Not every time is going to be fireworks and earth shattering. It's. It's. You know, it's just more about creating that time and that space to show up with each other and create an experience together.
- [26:12]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But if something's flopping in the moment and you're like, it, wouldn't that be a good time to sort of commit yourself to the exercise of talking honestly about sex, if you can, and being like, okay, this feels like it's flopping.
- [26:25]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah.
- [26:26]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Like, why is it Flopping, you know, is there.
- [26:29]
Vanessa Marin
Should we.
- [26:29]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Course correct. Like, I don't know. For me, it would be kind of an interesting moment to get more honest.
- [26:36]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. I mean, so if it's something like, let's say we're doing a position, we've tried a different position and it's just not working out in the moment, like, yeah, we'll absolutely say to each other, you know what, let's switch things up. Why don't you get on top or let me get on top or something like that. But I also think that there's. We often hear about this. It's almost this moment to moment hyper attentiveness that some people have on sex of like, oh, the passion's fading in this one moment. Like, something's wrong, Something's wrong. And so I just want to normalize. Even if you're having a great experience, it's natural for pleasure to ebb and flow. It's natural for your connection to your partner to ebb and flow. But yeah, definitely, if there's something going on in the moment where you need a little adjustment or make a little change, like, for sure, you should communicate about that.
- [27:19]
Xander Marin
Yeah. And I think it's especially helpful. Another reason to be talking about sex on an ongoing basis is to have a good sense of, okay, like, what are our greatest hits? Like, what are, what are the positions or the activities that we know in a pinch can make it happen. And yeah, if you're trying something new and it's maybe not awesome for you or, you know, you're kind of like feeling that, that zing fade away, it's like, maybe then that's a time to suggest, okay, like, let's, let's go back to the greatest hits. Like, suggest a position or an activity that you know is going to be great. And I think this happens with us a lot where it's like, yeah, okay, let's just get it done. Let's get it done. And then maybe we kind of can laugh. Like, okay, it wasn't our finest work, but high five.
- [28:04]
Gwyneth Paltrow
We got it done, we emptied the dishwasher and we managed to do it. I have very dry lips.
- [28:18]
Acura
Lips.
- [28:18]
Gwyneth Paltrow
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- [29:32]
Vanessa Marin
Okay, so one of the big mistakes that most people make is they wait because they don't want to talk about sex. They wait until something is wrong, there's a complaint, there's something they don't enjoy, there's a problem. And so we go in with the problem. And of course, that's going to feel super overwhelming for you to have to bring up to your partner, hey, that like, you know, secret move you think you do, I actually hate that. And it's also going to be really hard for your partner to hear that if that's the first thing that you're talking about.
- [29:59]
Gwyneth Paltrow
That's coming from a negative place.
- [30:00]
Xander Marin
Yeah. And especially, I mean, in the example you just of like, you're in the middle of trying something new and it's maybe not feeling awesome for you if you've never talked about it before or maybe you've had one or two fights about sex and those were the only times you talked about it. You're gonna be really, like, not inclined to say anything in the moment. Right. Cause you're like, oh, this isn't feeling very good for me. But every time I've talked about sex before, we got in a fight. So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna wait.
- [30:28]
Vanessa Marin
So instead, what we recommend is that couples build a foundation of talking about sex in a positive way or even just even in a neutral way too. So you want to get comfortable with sex as a topic of conversation before you get into talking about your unique sex life and certainly before you start talking about any sort of problems or challenges. So there are a couple ways to go about this. Like, one is just to start talking about sex more generally. So we design a lot of our Instagram content. We're Enessa and Xander to open up conversations between couples, like, watch a funny reel. Watch us doing, like, role playing some ridiculous sex positions that we found on the Internet. And just like, laugh with your partner about it. Like, oh, that was so funny. I can't believe they talked about it. Oh, they were giving advice about this couple's question. What did you think about that? So talking about sex in that more general way, and then once you start talking about your own personal sex life, start talking about the positive stuff first. So, like, something really simple that anybody could do after they finish listening to this episode is think about one of your favorite sexual experiences with your partner and bring it up with them randomly today. Just like, hey, you know what popped into my mind randomly today? That vacation that we went on in Mexico, that hotel where we stayed in bed all day, like, yeah, just popped into my head, was just a fun little memory to have. So you're having these like, non goal oriented conversations. You're not trying to do anything. You're just getting comfortable with the topic. And you're also reminding your partner and reminding yourself, like, hey, we have it in us. We've had some good times together.
- [32:01]
Xander Marin
And I mean, the interesting thing is what most couples find is that once they start talking about sex in a more general way, once it becomes a topic that's just on the table, that's sort of a neutral to fun topic, they actually start having it more. So many people ask us every single week on Instagram, we probably get like 10 questions of people being like, like, are you guys, like, sick of talking about sex? Like, when you like talking about sex all day, does it make you not want to have it? And I'm like, no. Like, the more. The more you talk about something, like, the more exciting it is. So, yeah, I think that that's like, we've heard from so many people that were like, oh, we thought we were gonna have to. We thought we were gonna have to do like six months of sex therapy and all this stuff. And like, it turns out we just started, you know, like, watching some of your content and talking about it, and all of a sudden the pieces started to fall into place. And so it's just. It can be so powerful. That can be a great first step.
- [32:57]
Vanessa Marin
And just keep sex top of mind when you talk about it too. I mean, like I was saying earlier, we're all so busy these days. We all have a million things going through our heads. And one of the main complaints we hear from people is like, there's just no mental space for sex. So when you're talking about it regularly. When it's just a natural topic of conversation, it. It keeps it front of mind.
- [33:17]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Yeah, I think that's. That makes a lot of sense. And also, I don't know, I think. And maybe. I mean, I think we kind of show one face to the world. Right? Like, we certainly aren't that connected to the ease around sex and sexuality and the language when we're at work or at a dinner party or in front of our teenagers, obviously, you know, disgusting. And so there's kind of like. I think it's more than just a presentation. I think it's like, this is who I am in the world. And then for me, anyway, especially, I think in a lot of my women friends who are super busy and have big careers and lives, it's like a different Persona almost went. Not that it's dishonest in any way or not integrated, but it's a big shift sometimes to go from this impervious, like, out in the world taking care of everything. And then, you know, for me, anyway, and I know it's different for everybody. Like, I need to be in a very soft place, you know, and in order to be, like, to feel connected to my sexuality. So it's a big. Sometimes it's a big arc that I have to, you know, traverse.
- [34:33]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. We talk a lot about transition rituals for couples, because what you're saying is absolutely true for the vast majority of people. Like, we feel this disconnect between who we are in our everyday lives. And then all of a sudden, it's like, you know, 11pm and you're in bed with your partner and thinking, like, oh, my God, we're supposed to be having sex right now. 11:00pm I know, I'm 9:00pm I don't know where 11:00pm came from. I was trying to be a little later.
- [34:58]
Xander Marin
You don't want to out us.
- [34:59]
Vanessa Marin
I know we're really early. If I'm not in bed at 9:00pm, I'm like, oh, God. But, yeah, it just feels like this big jump for so many of us. And so that's where transition rituals come into play of thinking about how can we create that softening with our partner, how can we create that, like, coming back home into my own skin, becoming myself again. And so I think communication actually can play a part of that. Like, if you're talking to your partner about sex, about intimacy, about your relationship, then that can create a little bit of a thread too. Like, I think one of the biggest mistakes that couples make is they initiate sex immediately before they want to have It. That's so hard, like, to go from I wasn't even thinking about it to wait now we were talking about sex and you want to have it right now. That's such a huge jump to make. And so one of the things that Xander and I do that helps so much is we talk about sex throughout the day. We might text back and forth with each other. We might say something in the morning like, hey, do you want to try to find a little time today? What are our schedules looking like? Where might we be able to get it in? Literally, we make a lot of dumb jokes and horrible puns with each other. That helps us, but it's creating that thread. So that creates a little bit more of a transition ritual too.
- [36:16]
Xander Marin
Yeah. With the transition rituals, I think it's important to recognize that most of our default transition rituals, or the ones that we are inclined to do, don't actually help us connect with our sexuality. It's like sitting down on the couch after a stressful day and watching a mindless reality show or scrolling on social media. Like, those aren't things that are actually going to get us in tune with our body. And so, you know, we, we try to suggest, you know, maybe it's going on a walk with your partner, like doing something actually physical with your body or, you know, one. Some of the even easier things that we love to suggest is a 30 second hug or a six second kiss, because those are the amounts of time required to start getting to get oxytocin to start releasing, which is going to calm you down, make you feel closer to your partner. And so, yeah, I think that, yeah, you have to, you have to have a ritual that has some, some physicality associated with it rather than sort of like a disconnection, like, okay, I'm going to disconnect from my body.
- [37:23]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. Because most of us are disconnected. All day long we're up in our heads, like completely out of our bodies. So we have to find these ways to come back into our bodies.
- [37:31]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It's, it's. Yeah, it's. It can be difficult, you know, just even, even not even speaking about sex, but even, like, you know, sometimes I've been going a million miles a minute and like, oh, I have a massage at 4 and then I'm lying there. Like, it takes, you know, like, oh my God, I have so much to do, you know, so it's like, yeah, it's hard to downshift into that.
- [37:50]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah.
- [37:50]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Are you supposed to be kind of in parasympathetic when you have sex? Like does your nervous system go shift?
- [37:59]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. Like, being in parasympathetic definitely helps us be able to tap into desire to enjoy the experience more. It's really hard if you're super stressed and tightly wound to then have the experience of like, letting go and releasing during sex. So it's those like. Like Xander was saying, it's simple things. They're not easy to do. Sometimes it's shocking how hard it feels to do something that small. But they are straightforward things. It's having some sort of physical contact with each other. It's moving your body in some sort of way. Another really powerful one is eye contact. Like, it's really wild how little eye contact most couples in long term relationships make.
- [38:37]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Is that right?
- [38:38]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. I mean, even. And we've fallen into this ourselves all the time too. Like, Xander will come into the room and I won't even look up from what I'm doing to acknowledge his presence. But if you think about that, like, what a powerful thing to take that split second to look up and like to say to your partner, I see you. You're here. You matter to me.
- [38:57]
Xander Marin
Yeah. She just started doing that one day, and I remember it felt so good. I was like, it's one of those things where you don't realize that it's happening or not happening until you see your partner do that. And I was like, wow, it feels like a cheat code. But it feels so good. Just like she looks up and says hi.
- [39:15]
Vanessa Marin
You're like looking behind you. What, like, what's going on? Yeah, it's. It's simple. They're not always easy, but they're simple things to do.
- [39:22]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. And you, you talked about scheduling, like, so for some people, is that, Is it like a bummer if you're like, scheduling sex as sort of a mood killer or is that actually like a great thing to think about? Building it in to the calendar and then.
- [39:39]
Vanessa Marin
Okay, so I hate the phrase scheduling sex, but I instead like to use the phrase intentional intimacy.
- [39:47]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Okay.
- [39:48]
Vanessa Marin
So many people hear scheduled sex and we think of it in this very boring, clinical way. Like, we have to sit down with our calendars and map out, like, okay, how are Wednesdays looking for you? 7:00, 8:00? Like, it feels like this gross negotiation that we're doing.
- [40:01]
Xander Marin
Yeah. People think, oh, I must really have a problem if we have to schedule sex. But we actually think the problem is that you stopped scheduling sex.
- [40:11]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. So if you really think about it, like, most people will tell us, you know, I miss those early stages of dating, like, everything just felt so easy, so effortless. But when you're dating your partner, like, what are you doing when you want to see them? You're scheduling dates. And once you start having sex with each other, you're essentially scheduling sex.
- [40:33]
Xander Marin
You know you're gonna do it.
- [40:35]
Vanessa Marin
There's this acknowledgement of like, my life is busy, your life is busy. Let's find some time that we can be together. And we see it as such a great thing. Like, I remember when I was dating Xander, you know, his life was busy and full, and the idea that he would carve out a Saturday night to spend with me was like, oh yeah, date night. I'm so excited. So we had this positive view of being intentional about our time together. And then somewhere along the line, it turns into this negative thing that, oh, we have to like, be intentional about creating time together. So, yeah, again, like, don't do it in this super clinical way where it's, you know, okay, here I'm signing my contract that I'll do it every Wednesday at 7:30 with you from now until eternity. But instead it's this different approach of how can we be intentional? How can we acknowledge life is really full? If we don't make a plan for something, it's not gonna happen. So how do we make sure that we are prioritizing each other, that we're creating that space for each other in our lives and that we're looking at that as a positive thing. Like, I love you, I care about you, I want you to have space in my life and I want to have space in yours.
- [41:41]
Xander Marin
And that's another reason why we like to use scheduled intimacy instead of sex. Because I think that's the other big hang up people have once you're in a long term relationship and life is really busy. This is getting back to what you were saying also about you're going a million miles a minute. It's really hard to, boom, transition into feeling sexual. And so it's so important. That's another reason why we love to use the word scheduled intimacy rather than sex. Because it can feel so hard to just like click into that sexual kind of nature, like feeling your sexuality like, like you were just saying how it's. You're going a million miles a minute and it's, it's really hard to make that switch.
- [42:26]
Vanessa Marin
And also, yeah, a lot of times people have a very narrow definition of what sex is too. Like in most male, female couples, people think of it as just intercourse. And so it can feel to a lot of people like, oh, we're scheduling it now. I'm making this promise that we're gonna have intercourse. And it just creates all this weird pressure. Whereas if you think more about intimacy in a broader sense of, like, this is just about time, quality time for us to connect, for us to be with each other, rather than so hyper fixated on one specific act.
- [42:55]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Admit the dude is so hyper specific on the act. He's like, fine, we can call it scheduled intimacy, but we know where this is going.
- [43:04]
Xander Marin
Yeah, well, I mean, but I think that's. It's important to recognize that many people are not. I mean, this gets into sex drive types, which is another huge thing that we love to talk about. But stereotypically, most men are spontaneous sex drive types, which means they think about sex randomly and they have the idea and they go, okay, I want to go do that. The problem is that most women have a responsive sex drive, which means that they're not randomly thinking about it, that their body needs stimulation in order for that mental desire to pop up. And so when you say, okay, we're going to have sex at 8pm it can feel like this huge jump to someone that's responsive. Like, how am I going to go from, like, I was at work, mine's going a million miles a minute, I'm putting the kids to bed. How do I just switch gears into. Into sexy mode? Whereas what you really need is, okay, we are going to schedule the intimacy. We are going to, you know, make an agreement that, you know, at this time or on this day, we're gonna be. We're gonna start with some cuddles. We're gonna maybe make out for a little while. We're gonna do whatever it is that feels good and makes you feel closer and more intimate and then see how you're feeling. Because it takes a little while for things to start heating up, usually.
- [44:21]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So the difference between the spontaneous and the responsive types, it's just. It's like visual versus sensual.
- [44:29]
Vanessa Marin
It's where we feel desire first so we can get the idea of sex. Sounds good. That's mental desire. And oftentimes it can just, you know, pop into your head randomly. And then the physical arousal, that's the other part of it. So if you're spontaneous sex drive, you have that mental desire first, and then the physical arousal follows. And if you're responsive, you're the exact opposite. You have to feel some sort of physical arousal first before you feel mental desire. So like Xander was saying, the vast majority of women have responsive desire and a Classic way of knowing that you might have it is if you've ever been in the middle of sex or even at the end of sex, and you catch yourself thinking, this is fun. Why don't I ever seem to want this? Like, that's classic responsive desire.
- [45:12]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Because by that point, biologically, everything's happening the right time.
- [45:16]
Xander Marin
Your mind is caught up to your.
- [45:18]
Vanessa Marin
Body, your body's having an experience, it's feeling good. And then your brain starts thinking, like, oh, yeah, this is good. I want more of this. I want to continue. But yeah, the way that most people initiate is for a spontaneous sex drive. Like, hey, do you want to have sex? Does the idea of sex sound good to you right now? But for a responsive person, if you ask them that question 99 times out of 100, the answer is going to be no.
- [45:39]
Xander Marin
Right now.
- [45:40]
Vanessa Marin
Not having physical stimulation.
- [45:42]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right, Right.
- [45:43]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah.
- [45:50]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So what's the best way to work with those different types internally and then together?
- [45:56]
Vanessa Marin
So just knowing that it exists can be really game changing for a lot of people. A lot of women in particular tell us, like, I thought I was broken. I thought something was so horribly wrong with me. And just understanding now, like, like, this is a sex drive type. It's normal. It's natural. Like, I just need to, like, kind of wrap my brain around this. I just have to allow my body to get physically stimulated first. That can just be really helpful in and of itself. We also really like changing the question. So most people will ask their partner, do you wanna have sex? And for me, that feels like a very high bar. When Xander asks me that, I will often feel like I'm getting a pop quiz in that moment. Like, oh, my God, you wanna have sex right now? Like, I wasn't even thinking about sex. I feel like I'm kind of behind. I've already lost. So there's an easy knee jerk reaction to just say no to it. But we've changed the question to, are you open to having sex? Are you open to being intimate?
- [46:52]
Xander Marin
Or are you open to getting turned on?
- [46:54]
Vanessa Marin
Oh, yeah, that's another great way of phrasing it because that's a good one. Yeah. It reminds me, like, I don't need to be turned on right now. I just have to be open to the possibility that I will get there once we get started.
- [47:05]
Xander Marin
Yeah, I think that, that, that those words, are you open to getting turned on? Is really speaking to a responsive type. Because it's like, it's acknowledging. Yeah, you're. You're probably not turned on right now. And there's a choice here. I'm asking, like, do you want to take the time with me to see if we can get there?
- [47:24]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And so, you know, you're, you're talking about desire, which I think can be sort of elusive in that. Right. It's like sometimes when you're, when you're really young and you know, I mean, it's, there's, there is something like very evolutionary about desire. Right. It's like at the tip of your fingertips, it's very easy to get turned on. And I think as one gets older, as life gets more complicated, as potentially there are children involved and hormonal shifts and all that, it seems like desire is something that gets harder to slip into. Are there ways to kind of cultivate that in, in daily life, like in the midst of all the busyness and all the stuff?
- [48:11]
Vanessa Marin
I think desire is actually highly overrated. I think we put so much pressure on desire and I think we put pressure on desire when it comes to sex in a way that is different from everything else in our lives. Like, we don't put this pressure on ourselves to feel so much desire to hang out with our friends or show up for our kids. Right? Right.
- [48:34]
Xander Marin
I'm only going to your soccer game if I'm like ready to go.
- [48:40]
Vanessa Marin
Like, we have this understanding of these people in my life are important to me. And showing up for them in a certain way is important to me. And I'm gonna like, make that effort to do it because of that. But we don't expect that we need to feel that desire in the same sort of way. And that's not to say desire is not fun to feel, especially sexual desire. Like, of course that's fun to feel. But like you said, there is an evolutionary aspect to it. There are actual physiological changes that happen in our body. Like, we're actually not physiologically capable of sustaining desire in a long term relationship. Those sparky feelings that we have at the beginning really can only last like six months, up to a year. I think that what needs to matter so much more than desire is pleasure. Like the actual experience has to matter more than our craving for it. And one of my favorite comparisons is it's always food. All my comparisons go back to food. But think about the last amazing meal that you had and what made it amazing. You're not going to answer? Oh, I was starving beforehand and I.
- [49:47]
Xander Marin
Just happened upon this really amazing restaurant.
- [49:51]
Vanessa Marin
You're going to talk to me about the actual food itself, the tastes, the aromas, the presentations, the colors that you were seeing. Maybe you're talking about the atmosphere in the restaurant, the service that you got, the company that you were with, the conversation.
- [50:05]
Gwyneth Paltrow
But don't you think it's also like, I don't know, maybe it's just me, but like, say you had an incredible meal at this restaurant before and you were like, the peaches were so ripe and it was, they were so beautiful. And the way they did this and you're holding in your mind and in your body this idea of the pleasure that you had the last time. And the desire is born out of that. The. Yeah, the, I like that feeling that you want to have that again. And like, like that to me is desire. So like, for me anyway, a great meal is part of like the, oh my God, there's like, I just got the best sourdough bread and I'm gonna put it in the oven.
- [50:46]
Vanessa Marin
And you know, but you're leading with the experience first. And there's a trust that you have of like, I remember how good that was.
- [50:54]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [50:54]
Vanessa Marin
And most people in long term relationships, you know, when people will tell us, I have no desire, the first question we ask is tell us about the sex that you're having. And the answer to that question is usually it's pretty boring. It's predictable. Feels like there's not really anything in it for me.
- [51:11]
Xander Marin
It's not getting initiated in exciting ways.
- [51:14]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. And so there's no choice.
- [51:16]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So why would you have desire? Right, right, right.
- [51:18]
Vanessa Marin
It's like, oh, I went to the restaurant and the bread was stale and you know, the water was like weird tap water.
- [51:25]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Why would you want it again?
- [51:26]
Vanessa Marin
Right, exactly. So like, we have to start with the experience. The pleasure has to matter more than anything else. And once we have that locked in, once we have that, that trust in, hey, I know I'm going to have a good experience, then desire kind of naturally falls into place after that. But most of us are so fixated on the desire and a lot of us women are so fixated on feeling like something's wrong with us or broken with us that we're not thinking about the pleasure aspect of it. And I really want people to feel focus on that.
- [51:55]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right. So how do you counsel people out of those difficult moments? Right. They're like, I have no desire. What kind of sex you're having, it's not that great. Like, if that's sort of the resounding theme in a lot of long term relationships, what is your approach?
- [52:11]
Vanessa Marin
Yes, we have to focus on what makes sex worth having for you. That was that question. That Xander asked a few minutes ago. Like, that feels like one of the most important questions for people to start asking themselves.
- [52:23]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So they should be in the room together, like, and ask each other that question.
- [52:27]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, I would take a little bit of time to think about your own answer first, because it's a big question. You could spend a lot of time thinking about it. So I wouldn't put your partner on the spot and say, like, hey, I just heard this question on the podcast. Give me your answer right now. But it's a great thing to first start thinking about yourself and then loop back around to your partner and have a conversation with. But ultimately, a lot of what we end up talking about with people is sexual technique is like, how do we actually have sex that feels good? And it's another area where we just don't. Like, where did we ever learn that?
- [52:59]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Right.
- [52:59]
Vanessa Marin
Like, Xander was talking earlier about this pressure of, you know, as a man, I'm supposed to know what I'm doing. I'm supposed to deliver this great experience to my partner.
- [53:06]
Xander Marin
I mean, and the problem is then most men are drawing from their past experiences. And this always works. Yeah. Trying to figure out, oh, what's the secret? You know, what's the secret technique that makes a woman or that makes. Makes my partner come. Right. And the problem is, I mean, it's kind of twofold. One is that often our experiences, especially our early sexual experiences, we may not have the best data. Like, there may have been some embellishment or faking going on, because that is very common and understandable given the kind of the stakes that we have around sex. And this idea that, know you want your partner to feel good about what they're doing. And so maybe you. You embellish or exaggerate a little bit. Right? So, one, you're going to have bad data. And. And number two, like, every woman's body is different. Like, what they respond to is different, what brings them pleasure. Every person's body is different. And so I think a lot of men approach sex being like, oh, yeah, I know what to do. I do these three things. And like, it's worked for everyone in the past. And I say, who cares what worked in the past? We're talking about, you have a new partner right here. You guys have to figure out together what is going to work for both of you. It's not about what happened in the past. And so that can be a really great invitation to be like, hey, we're just starting over. We're starting from scratch.
- [54:32]
Vanessa Marin
So to make this Practical. One of my favorite techniques to use in the bedroom is to try two different techniques and pick which one you like best. So I hate the question, what do you like or what do you want? Like, again, I can't describe to you exactly what I want. I can't write out my list of, here's my manual for how to pleasure me. It just feels too cold and clinical to look at it in that way. But if Xander's, you know, stroking my arm and he tries, like, do you like it better when I stroke you like this, or when I use more pressure like this, then I just have two data points in front of me and I get to. To say, like, okay, go back to the first one. Try that again. No, try the second one. Okay. Yeah, I think I like the second one better. So having just two things to compare against each other, it feels so much easier to pick one answer out of two. And it also is really lowering the bar. I'm not saying, like, this is the one secret to making me have the best orgasm I've ever had, but it's tuning into this sense of curiosity and exploration with each other in our bodies.
- [55:31]
Gwyneth Paltrow
So how would you each answer that question then? What makes sex worth having?
- [55:38]
Vanessa Marin
For me, my answer is playfulness. I realized once I started thinking about this question, I realized I have taken sex so seriously in the past. I've felt that same sort of performance anxiety that Xander has felt of, like, I want it to be good. I want to seem like I'm good. I want it to feel to my partner like things are clicking. And even in our relationship, like, we'd taken sex really seriously for a long time. And I realized, for me, I want to feel playful. I want to feel like the stakes aren't so high. I want to feel like we're both goofballs and weirdos outside of the bedroom. Like, I want to feel like I can bring my full self into the bedroom and be silly and goofy and weird and laugh at things and just, like, be. Yeah. Be playful with each other in that moment. Moment.
- [56:25]
Xander Marin
Yeah. And I definitely want much of the same. I think another. Another thing that feels really good for me is just. It's. It's the connection that I feel with her when we are laughing together, when we're being goofy and when we're giving each other orgasms. Like, that feels. I feel. That's when I feel the very closest to Vanessa. And so, yeah, I. I love that. I love that feeling of connection, of feeling kind of like we're unstoppable together. That's when I feel closest and most in love.
- [57:04]
Gwyneth Paltrow
One thing I wanted to ask you was, like, what about when, you know, things have gone. There's been, like, a real rift in a relationship. Either there's been, you know, I mean, they've gone through something really difficult in life or, you know, death or infidelity. Like, does that. How have you seen couples recover from. From, you know, getting over those really, really difficult and painful things? Like, is that possible? And if so, how does one start?
- [57:40]
Vanessa Marin
A lot of us have this tendency to think of sex in a vacuum. We think it's like, just this thing that happens in our bedroom at the end of the night with the doors closed and the lights turned off, that it's really important to recognize that your connection with your partner or lack of connection all throughout the day is really going to impact that desire or ability to connect with them in the first place. And so recognizing that all those life challenges that you just mentioned that can really impact your sex life, a lot of people just don't make that connection in their heads, and they feel like something's wrong with them for not having that intimacy all the time. So recognizing, like, your sex life is going to get thrown off, life is gonna throw some serious curveballs your way. It's not about maintaining some perfect connection all the time. It's about sometimes we have to make space for things like that. So one of my biggest tips for couples when you're going through something challenging is to acknowledge it. Like, so often, let's say it's. It's grief from somebody passing. We don't even want to acknowledge that our sex life is struggling because it feels embarrassing. It feels like admitting defeat. And so we kind of just want to bury our heads in the sand a little bit. This also comes up really often when a couple is just going through a dry spell. You know, maybe there's just some reason that you're just not connecting. So couples won't say anything about it, but what happens then is it leaves your partner wondering, do they notice that we're not having sex? Do they notice? Do they care? Are they still attracted to me? And they can start spinning out in a lot of stories in their heads. So just saying something as simple as this, like, hey, I know life has been so crazy lately. I know we're both struggling with a lot of grief right now, But I want you to know that I love you and I miss you, and I know maybe our connection is not gonna be the strongest in this season of life. But this isn't what I want, and I'm excited for us to get on to the other side and for us to start reconnecting. Like, just that acknowledgement can go a really, really long way in keeping the thread alive between the two of you.
- [59:45]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And what about infidelity?
- [59:48]
Vanessa Marin
Infidelity is definitely a tricky one, and I recommend that couples work with a therapist personally to help guide them through that process because it can really rock your sex life in. I mean, it rocks your entire relationship. The trust has been broken in a really profound way. There's. There's so much grief and sadness and anger. It can often be confusing, too. A lot of couples will say that they'll, like, immediately in the aftermath of discovering the infidelity. A lot of couples actually have a really hot sex life. It's the sense of, like, I almost lost you, or I want to be better than that person that you were with. So they can have really great sex, which can feel even more confusing. So it can. Yeah, you can really go through so many different phases with it. It is possible absolutely, to overcome infidelity and. But just, yeah. Needs the help of working with somebody trusted to guide you through that process.
- [60:42]
Gwyneth Paltrow
That makes sense.
- [60:43]
Vanessa Marin
We have, like, these five pillars of intimacy that we think are really crucial.
- [60:47]
Gwyneth Paltrow
For summarize them for us.
- [60:49]
Vanessa Marin
So we've got communication. We have connection, emotional connection, Desire, pleasure, and exploration is the fifth one. So I think everybody's heard the advice, like, we have to keep it spicy in the bedroom. And it kind of sounds like trite and cheesy advice, but it actually is true. Research shows that when we have new experiences with our partner, our brains light up. We get to see them in new ways. We get to see them from a different viewpoint. And it actually goes back to what we started this conversation talking about seeing our partner engaged in their purpose or being competent in something. There's a great way that you can kind of step back from your partner and say, like, oh, oh, yeah, you.
- [61:30]
Xander Marin
If you need any proof that this. That this is true, just look at the reality TV formula, because they have. They have figured it out. It's put people into new situations that they haven't done before, doing new activities. That's why they're always, like, going skydiving, riding ATVs. It's like put two people that don't know each other very well, put them in new situations, and all of a sudden they start bonding much faster than they would otherwise. So, yeah, imagine what that's like. You know, obviously, you know, if you're in a long term relationship, you know your partner pretty well. But imagine then, yeah, you're doing new things together. If that works for someone that barely knows each other, then, like, that's going to do wonders for you. You know, knowing all this, it's so exciting. Like, oh, it's so cool to see you in a different light than I have before.
- [62:18]
Vanessa Marin
Okay. But you don't have to do sexual skydiving to bring back that feeling again. A lot of people hear that advice, and our brains go to these extreme places, like, oh, something new. Like, we have to have a threesome or do something super kinky, and you don't. One of the easier ways to go about this is actually to think about, what are the things that we used to do in the bedroom that we haven't done in a long time?
- [62:43]
Xander Marin
Oh, that's interesting, because there's probably a number.
- [62:45]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. A lot of us. Like, as relationships go on, our sexual reference repertoire really starts to narrow down. Like, it feels like a buffet at the beginning, and then you're down to the, like, the set menu. And Xander and I fell into this too, where so much of the sex that we were having in certain seasons of our relationship was like 30 seconds of kissing, couple seconds of groping at each other, and then straight on to intercourse.
- [63:09]
Xander Marin
Get it done.
- [63:10]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah. And you feel oftentimes even more vulnerable trying something new with your partner of 17 years than you do at the very beginning of dating when you don't even know them. So starting simpler and just thinking about, yeah, what are those things that we used to do? And they can be very basic things like, oh, we used to spend a really long time making out. Xander and I would spend so much time kissing at the beginning of our relationship. And, yeah. Then when we'd gotten years into it, it was this really perfunctory 10, 30 seconds of it. So maybe it's bringing back kissing for a little bit. Maybe you have some toys in a dusty box in your closet that haven't seen the light of day in a long. Like, just, what are those things that we used to enjoy doing with each other that we haven't done in a while?
- [63:51]
Xander Marin
Yeah. If they're dusty, though, definitely wash them off.
- [63:53]
Vanessa Marin
Yeah, wash them off.
- [63:56]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Oh, guys, thank you so much for being here today. It was great to have you.
- [64:00]
Vanessa Marin
Thanks for having us.
- [64:01]
Xander Marin
Thank you.
- [64:02]
Gwyneth Paltrow
And if people want to hear more from you, where's the best place they.
- [64:06]
Vanessa Marin
Can find us on Instagram? We're Ennessa and Xander. And Xander's with an X. I think that's a really great starting point for seeing some of the ridiculous reels that we do. Opening those conversations with your partner, it's just a great way to get the ball rolling. And then you can also find us on our website, vanessa and zander.com we have a ton of guides and courses we'd love to teach all the technique that nobody ever learned anywhere. And I think we have a really fun way of making it feel exciting and exploratory and playful rather than like, you're terrible at blow jobs. Here's how to get better. So we have like four play guys, we have an ultimate sex guide. All sorts of fun stuff to check out.
- [64:47]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being here today.
- [64:49]
Vanessa Marin
Thanks for having us.
- [64:50]
Gwyneth Paltrow
It was great. You guys are so awesome.
- [64:53]
Vanessa Marin
Thank you.
- [65:00]
Gwyneth Paltrow
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the Goop Podcast. I hope this conversation serves as a reminder to start the conversation, take some pressure off, and bring a little more curiosity and playfulness into your relationship. Sometimes just a small shift in how we think about intimacy can change everything. Thanks so much for listening. See you next time. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.