← The Grand Tourist with Dan Rubinstein
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- [00:00]
A
The general paradox, I feel is fashion has become so important that you need fashion to sell cars, to sell holidays, to sell architecture, but that the actual fashion has become quite meaningless. Like how many people are actually deeply caring about a fashion garment or a fashion brand, etc.
- [00:22]
B
Hi, I'm Dan Rubenstein and this is the Grand Tourist. I've been a design journalist for more than 20 years and this is my personalized guided tour through the worlds of fashion, art, architecture, food and travel. All the elements of a well lived life. Magazines are going through a little resurgence lately and I've even launched my own after a few decades in the business. It's been an incredible ride, even after just one issue. It's made me think about how despite the changes in technology, print still holds a magical place in our hearts. And it's also made me think about the titles from around the world that really made an impact on me. With just paper and ink, they create an entire world, a mood, a message, something new. Many are excellent, but only a handful boldly break the mold. My guests today are part of a brand that started in print and have definitely made an impact on the world of fashion, art and culture in a profound and lasting way. Jorgen Maria Koch of Berlin based O3 2C. The magazine started as a newsprint zine of sorts in 2001, went glossy a few years later to become a cultural bible that has always been on the cutting edge, with contributions from creme de la creme photographers such as Jurgen Teller, Wolfgang Tillmans and Stephen Klein. But it's not all frivolous, transgressive image making either. For example, the new issue takes a deep dive into what they call techno feudalism, with serious commentary on the warping of democracy in the USA and its impact on the global stage. Oh, and P.S. the magazine's mysterious name comes from a stark red pantone color. More on that later. Over time, instead of selling out and dumbing down the editorial message of the magazine, dubbed the Manual for Freedom, Research and Creativity, it expanded in other ways. Most notably, Jorg teamed up with his wife Maria, a fashion veteran, to expand on some of the merch coming from the little company, which over time has now blossomed into a more fully fledged fashion brand with ready to wear for both men and women. I caught up with Jorg and Maria, both in Berlin, to discuss the origins of the phenom that is 032C, what Maria learned by working for the legendary designer Jill Sander, how the pair met the inventive way the fashion side of the business has evolved from print, their advice for the next generation of upstarts and much more. Such a pleasure to speak with you guys today. And you know, O3 2C has become such a powerful force in creativity and in fashion and publishing. But I kind of wanted to rewind a little bit. And Jorg, I believe you were originally from Frankfurt, but what was your life like before moving to Berlin?
- [03:05]
A
I grew up in a conservative environment, I would say. But the life changing moment was for me to be into punk rock, hardcore, straight edge, like this whole DIY culture. And that probably has shaped everything what I've been doing since then.
- [03:27]
B
When did that sort of kick off for you? What. How old were you when you. When you sort of shocked your parents with some punk outfits?
- [03:34]
A
I was probably around, yeah, 13, 14. That started it yet.
- [03:41]
B
What did. What did your parents think? Were they like.
- [03:44]
A
Well, actually. Actually I was also a card carrying member of a revolutionary socialist party. So you can imagine how niche it was and how fringe it was. Like living drug free, being a socialist in the late 80s, early 90s.
- [04:03]
B
Yeah, I bet your parents were thrilled. Were your parents more conservative? Were they more socialist themselves?
- [04:08]
A
No, they're like conservative liberals. A very loving family, I have to say.
- [04:16]
B
Oh, good. Well, Maria, what about yourself? I mean, you've been a fashion designer for your entire career. And were you always interested in design or fashion like that as a young girl?
- [04:31]
C
I would say I was always interested into what you can call beauty. No matter if I would find this in music or in being with animals or then later with art, and then it ended up in fashion. So this is, I feel, my driving force somehow.
- [04:51]
B
And where were you from originally?
- [04:53]
C
I'm from Gottingen. It's actually a similar setup as York's, but my parents were, I would say, left wing intellectuals and it wasn't that easy to emancipate from this household, you know, to be cooler than your parents, et cetera. I found a way. I chose hardcore rave and grafted hardcore rave, hardcore. And this was even for them, a little bit on the edge. So somehow this was my little punk moment, as Joerg described. But they were always super caring and as well, understanding no matter what I would do or how I would come home. So it was a very protective environment. Nevertheless, even when I think I really did some. Some fun stuff here and there.
- [05:42]
B
Yeah, okay. And Jorg, when did you first move to Berlin?
- [05:48]
A
That was, I think in the mid-90s. 96, 97.
- [05:54]
B
And it must have been a very different city back then, you know, as compared to today. Sort of the height of that, that artist scene that everyone, at least in, you know, in the US kind of equates with Berlin at that time. What was it like when you first moved there? What was that sort of first year living in Berlin like for you?
- [06:12]
A
Well, the fun fact is I had never been to Berlin before. You know, it was always like a cliche when you grew up in West Germany to have a school trip to Berlin to see the Berlin Wall, et cetera. And there were always like this competition with the hardcore scene in Berlin versus the rest of Germany. So I was, I never really bothered to Berlin, but directly after school, as any provincial West German kid, I was dreaming of living in New York, you know. So I went to New York, lived there for like six, eight months. And then I had to the choice of either studying at Columbia University, which cost back then like I think 20, 30k or something like that versus studying for free. And then I just moved to Berlin because that was the biggest city in Germany and it was like a period where you still had this post Berlin Wall euphoria. But of course it kind of cooled down. So I caught like I would say the last wave of possibilities. But even that was like really defining of what's possible. Because you know, Berlin back then was like a very optimistic space, but also completely bankrupt. It was like New York in the 70s, you know, like a big city bankrupt, but you had like all these open spaces and possibilities reigned supreme, you know. You know the stories of people opening a bar in like an empty basement or starting a party, etc. And people doing stuff, you know, it didn't matter to make money because it was very, very cheap to live in Berlin these days.
- [08:10]
B
And Maria, what was your some of your first jobs out of school? Did you study design on your own first?
- [08:17]
C
So I studied in Berlin and I came to Berlin in 97, but I had family here earlier. So I've been quite often in Berlin and I always felt that it's a very rough but in the same time romantic city because as Joerg described of this incredible room and then freedom you have in this city. And I still feel this is somehow in the air, even when it's not true anymore. And it's very expensive now, but it's somehow a part of the DNA of the city. So I started here, then I had a job again in West Germany in a super small city for two years and worked my ass off to get a better job. And then I landed at Gillsander and this was very important to me to.
- [09:09]
B
Work with her and Jorg, you were running for different papers, I think when you first got to Berlin as a freelance journalist, is that right? Was that the beginning for you in terms of your career?
- [09:19]
A
A little bit. I was also working for a multimedia agency that started the first web magazine in Germany, like Culture Net culture, Internet culture, music, pop culture, etc. And that was very interesting. You know, it was again like it was the start of a dot com era. I was like this little whiz kid. But meanwhile, coming from my background, I had no interest in making money, you know, so that was like a dichotomy to the discrepancy to the general startup vibe back then. But I was like really, really interested in the new possibilities there.
- [10:06]
B
And you also worked on some experimental zines and some other your own publishing projects before O3.2C. Is that true? Tell me a little bit about that sort of phase.
- [10:15]
A
I mean, like, that was just like part of the punk culture of like what I refer to, like diy, that you just start your own stuff. And that meant like that I had like, that I did like fan scenes. I organized concerts when I was 16 or I had a record label. So that was like just like the natural modus operandi, I think, for anybody in the scene.
- [10:39]
B
And Maria, what was those first years like working for Jill Sander?
- [10:43]
A
That's a real hardcore switch. Always between.
- [10:47]
B
It is, it is.
- [10:48]
A
I don't want to neglect to miss Jill Sander.
- [10:51]
B
I know I don't want to.
- [10:52]
C
What Joerg and I really have in common. And this is, I think, the main driving force, it's really not. I mean, of course we want to make money now, but because we have a big machine in our back ends. But this was never the driving force. It was always about just producing very deeply, like deeply considered quality stuff. And to. To be on point and to be seen. I think this is super important. So this was as one of my doctors, when I worked at Chelsanda, I really worked much more than everybody else. I had a little, you know, just competition with myself to stay always till 10 in the office and to produce more and more and more so that I would be in her, you know, or on her endeavor. And I was after half a year. Then she was always, oh, this our little young gun. She should show me her stuff and did it. And I was like, yeah, yeah. So it was very, for me, this super ambition worked really out very well for me there.
- [11:58]
B
And what would you say you learned from her, design wise? Like, what was the kind of what made her unique, you know, in that sort of office.
- [12:08]
C
What really impressed me back then was that she never excused her fetish on precision, even when she would drive everybody nuts. And it was really about the millimeters or the, the blue. Everybody saw the perfect blue, but she felt there's missing a hint of black or whatsoever. And to insist on that, it's not perfect yet. And to don't feel guilty for this, I wouldn't say punishment, but you know, for this big pressure that she opened up quite often. And this is very interesting because the result is then when you're brave enough to do that much more in the area of excellence than when you say it's okay, let them go home, it's late now, et cetera.
- [12:57]
B
And you know, in the US around the year around like 2001 was a really bad time for media before there was a kind of an advertising boom and happened after 9, 11, you know, can you take us, take me back to sort of Berlin at the turn of the century, like when it 03.2C kind of got its first beginnings. Like what was that? Why that color? How did that, how did that first spark of an idea come to?
- [13:25]
A
You know, I think like you can see from the name O32C that it was never really commercially intended. Right. It's a quite a cryptic name, but it's like the pantona color code for red. And it was started as a fancy and out of a project space I had with two friends. So we did like, it was like a three dimensional fancy. Like we did shows on metabolism, the Japanese avant garde architecture. And then next was like a show with Terry and Trisha Jones of ID magazine. And then there was like a fashion show with Bless. And so that was like Berlin in a nutshell. We were like young, stupid and ambitious. But also like when people wanted to buy something, we said no, it's not for sale. So we just did this for one and a half years. And back then it was like obviously like local in Berlin Mitte. But. But I realized that there's a huge interest in Berlin from people abroad and also that like that there is no real publication outlining the new fashion reference system. You know, like you had like a new generation of fashion designers like Helmut Lang and then Raf Simmons and Eddie Slimane. And it was completely different from a world of like Karl Lagerfeld for instance back then, and was referring more music, architecture, politics, etc. And so that was the starting point to have like a magazine that captures with Zeitgeist in a more abstract Day than normally lifestyle publications did at that time.
- [15:13]
B
And what was the first reaction to it? Like, was it a difficult sell? Did people just pick up on it right away or did you have some pushback against the Karl Lagerfeld sort of?
- [15:23]
A
No, Dan. Dan, you have to imagine it was like a newspaper thing, black, red, printed. And newspaper is a limited edition of 2500 copies. So if you know newspaper printing, you can't like just print 2500 copies because like once you push the button on a machine, it runs through. So I think we always printed like 10,000 copies and had to throw away like 7,500 copies. So it was not like a real sustainable affair, but like dirt cheap to do. And so this was like a thing like a newspaper with like intellectual content and then distributed to places like Colette, etc. So obviously in Germany no one got it. Like there was nothing, you know, and that was also like the reason why it was published from the beginning in English, because you didn't had like this echo camber for it in Germany, because Germany, it was much easier, let's put it this way, it was much easier for. For me to create like a hype or whatsoever an interest in Paris, London or New York or like Tokyo, Japan became quite important at that time than in Germany because like everything is fragmented in Germany and you had like a federal structure. You have Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Berlin. And Berlin was seen back then, was quite small.
- [16:58]
B
And how long was this sort of the newspaper era before you went into sort of a glossy age? Because that's when I think New Yorkers really first started to see it was in that era.
- [17:07]
A
Yeah, like I did three issues always was the same cover, like a red square. So that was also confusing. And then we start. I started to print photography, proper photography, and switched over to classic magazine structure.
- [17:24]
B
Okay, so it was about like a year and a half or how like.
- [17:27]
A
Yeah, okay, yeah, something like that.
- [17:29]
B
And you know, of course the model of the magazine is. And now label is sort of manual for freedom, research and creativity. Tell me about the freedom part. And why do you think that was like really key, key to your belief and what you were trying to say with, with the magazine.
- [17:47]
A
I think 032c was always like a political publication in terms of like empowering people to think for themselves, obviously. And also like to. To lead by example, like, if we can do it, if we can do something like this, other people can do it for sure as well with the right level of commitment. And of course, when you're here in Berlin, in A place where it's so tormented by history and where so much evil came out, but also so much good. The freedom part is quite self evident, I think, for like a Berlin publication.
- [18:29]
B
And so at what point did the two of you meet, Maria, do you remember the first day you met Jorg?
- [18:35]
C
I do, but we actually met on the Internet.
- [18:37]
A
It's a very modern day love affair.
- [18:40]
C
We met simply on Facebook, started to write and I think this went on for half a year. And then we decided that because we never met each other in Berlin, even when we were in the same circles, in the same context, we just never met, which is really surprising. But however. And then we decided to, To. To meet and.
- [19:02]
B
Yeah, so you guys met on Facebook. That's really interesting. That's really interesting. And I kind of feel, I feel like you guys have some really amazing, cool story. What did you. When you guys first did meet face to face, what was your impression of Jorg, Maria?
- [19:15]
C
I don't know. I was so nervous because I was already in love. I was so nervous that I remember myself just looking down on the ground all the time because I. It was just too much information for my little brain. So. But just then later, I mean, I was just very, very in love, super impressed by him, but I don't really remember what I thought. I just have this feeling of nervousness in me still when I think about it.
- [19:48]
B
Did you have any impression of the magazine at the time? Like, were you reading it or anything?
- [19:52]
C
Not at all. I didn't really like it because I felt, I wouldn't say I found it, that there was arrogancia behind it, but I had so many friends of mine who hyped this magazine up as crazy. And I'm this kind of person, you know when somebody or when a whole friend circle says, oh, you have to watch this movie, you have to, you have to, you have to. I get then in this anti moment where I feel, no, I. Maybe not. And there's always a reason why everybody's pushing me to watch a movie or to read this magazine because it's quite good though I read then later and understood why it has this hype and why it's so important we fight for.
- [20:34]
A
Every soul to reach them.
- [20:38]
B
And what was your first impression of Maria Jorg? Like? What sparked that connection?
- [20:44]
A
No, I was like really impressed or fell in love with her sharpness, you know.
- [20:50]
B
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- [22:46]
C
I think it's a combination of two streams that happened. The first thing was that we saw just on the Internet, kids who would create their own O32C merchandise. I remember a young man from Moscow or Kiev, which is like, you know, to compare this. So however, and they created their own handicovers. And another girl, I think she was from Italy, did like her own sweater with the logo, etc. And then we just understood that back then the kids were very interested in having somehow more physical connection to this magazine. Like really to wearing this magazine. And I worked at Designer here in Berlin and Joerg was on the magazine and a friend of ours was like, you guys should work together. So we see now this phenomenon that a lot of kids creating their own merch. You guys are extremely in love, very symbiotic in how tight you discuss things, live together, blah, blah, you should Share your time and your life within this work environment as well. And we felt, wow, this is a smart idea. So, right. Somehow, like this.
- [24:11]
B
Jorg, what was your take on that? On that Genesis?
- [24:13]
A
No, it was true. I mean, like, it was bloody obvious what he said there. Like, we were sitting in the living room, I remember it, we were sitting on the couch talking about life and then he sat and he just like, why don't you combine it? And we were like, do. Yeah, you know, it just didn't occur to us back then, you know. But I think why it's possible is interesting because like 00:32C, I think was. Was never intended to be just a print magazine, you know, because I came from a digital background. So the funny story for me is always how L32CS print started was like, you know, back in 2000, what meant going viral? It meant that you got covered by other magazines. And I wanted. Originally the plan was to do a streaming media website and to announce the URL that this fancy is out there and gets picked up by newspapers or by ID and the face to write about it, you know, but like, the whole streaming media thing was like dead end because I bought like hard disk and then like, I had no money whatsoever, you know, because it was so bloody expensive. And. And show studio then started, I think around the time, like a little bit later. But like, obviously Nick Knight had more cash. So the print magazine really worked perfectly within the budget constraint and for the impact it had. But that was never the end game for it. You know, it could have also, like, of 82C could have theoretically also evolved into like real estate development with storytelling around it, you know, like, so there was like an openness. And I think that's like, why the transition was working to start like a merch line first and then a fashion line, etc. And by now, I think O32C is the first media brand that has transformed itself into a fashion brand.
- [26:17]
B
Is it at this point in time, is the fashion brand sort of the bulk of the business? Like, is it kind of, you know, a kind of percentage of the overall business? In. In a rough sense, would you say is now fashion versus publishing?
- [26:32]
A
Yeah, I mean, like, fashion is much bigger simply because of a scope and like the offer. You know, media is in general a shrinking business. So it's much easier to expand in fashion than in media.
- [26:50]
B
And you know, here's a question I just wanted to ask earlier. It's like, was there a time, was there any kind of particular story or issue that you worked on with O32C at its height before you, before the addition of fashion that you kind of felt really embodied, like what the. What the brand was about, what the. What the title was about. To kind of give people a sense of like the ultimate O32C stories or, you know, for someone who may listening, who may not have ever read the magazine, was there a particular issue or a particular story where you really felt. Feel like you hit a nerve that really sort of solidified what the title was really all about or just a favorite issue of yours that you just loved?
- [27:37]
C
Like, no, I have one. But this was the photo story of Jurgen teller and Kirsten McManamy in the Kalumulino house, right? This was really. This was some. It was spectacular because it was like on the edge to porn. And I remember that Joerg told me.
- [27:55]
A
It was actually porn, darling. It was like we got deemed as hardcore pornography because, like, what are people.
- [28:01]
C
But there were people, like real people who had to paint like some of the genitals black, et cetera, because it was too hot. But I felt this. Just this idea of all these combinations and references in this one story and how nevertheless beautiful it looked and how smart it looked and very somehow intellectual. I really loved the story very much. And it was disruptive as well for me just to really understand. Oh, God, oh, God, what do I see there? You know, it was like challenging. At the same time.
- [28:37]
A
We should be more on podcasts. You never say so nice things about the magazine.
- [28:41]
C
Yeah.
- [28:41]
B
Oh, there you go.
- [28:42]
C
When you don't have.
- [28:43]
B
I'm doing my service.
- [28:44]
A
Yes, thank you then.
- [28:45]
B
You're welcome.
- [28:46]
A
I think, like, stories, it's hard to say, you know, because, like. But like, I think the defining moments were like, we have like big ducies. Like, you know, like cover Dussi is always 40 pages long. So very like in depth takes. And like, like one I remember is like on Raf Simmons or Comme des Ganson or Helmut Lang. I think these are like really the Helmut Lang. These are like really quintessential pieces. And they're stocked in libraries. People pay like a fortune for them, et cetera. But also like individual stories, like, I remember, like, that we got. We walked out like a story on Steven Mazel like a big reportage. And then like printing all his Vogue Italia covers. That's like how we got him because hundreds of them, we printed them in a big fold out, you know, or we had REM Kohlhaas of Omar and the history of Europe. And that was like 32 page fold out. Of a diagram stream of history of Europe. So there are lots of features that kind of pushed the boundaries of what a traditional magazine can do or should do, etc.
- [30:01]
B
And, Maria, the fall winter collection is called Suspicious Minds. And it's sort of described as anti zeitgeist uniforms by someone.
- [30:11]
C
Tell us about this collection, Suspicious Minds. So actually it all started with a traditional festive phenomenon, I would say, in the Alps, where guys would wear like monster outfits to. I don't know how to really explain it in English. Maybe you can help me out to say goodbye to the bed and welcome the new. It's like this typical scenario, what you do in folklore, in this folklore context, where when the year is changing, you get rid of the old and welcome the new. So this was the idea to be more than they're in this ALP scenario. And what I figured out about the traditional garments that they are wearing to do the celebration are highly sexual or where I felt this is very interesting. So the idea of a dirndl is like really all about the waist and the chest. And for the boys, it's about the decoration in the crotch. And this is for me. So. And when you see this as a traditional moment and put this, then in the more modern context, or even destructive context, it becomes something anti zeitgeist because it's not. It's. It's a quite old system deconstructed in something newer. This was super interesting to me. And then the song Suspicious Minds, Elvis Presley has like somehow the same. Or is following the same idea to even, you know, even when you're suspicious, even when you don't trust. Why don't we don't, you know, look to the future and try it anyways and try it again. And this idea, this idea of maybe hope, even with a little bit sex appeal. So this is what it's about with Suspicious Minds for me.
- [32:25]
B
And for next spring, the collection is called I Would Prefer not to, which I love as a title, which, you know, has some references to sort of this sort of global obsession with conservatism and nationalism and things like that. What is this collection about, Maria?
- [32:42]
C
It's a very. It's a little bit for me, for myself, not an irritating collection, but it's a collection which maybe marks certain clean slate for myself, like where I just felt I. Yeah, I don't want to do this kind of. It's one internal something. What you do when you do collections and then want to sell them to a bigger audience. You do, for example, like a collection framework. You have to fulfill certain boxes of. This is the price point. This is like the sizing. This is. So actually what you do is you really design into an Excel sheet. And of course, this is then underlined by numbers, by research, etc. And I just felt. I just don't want to. I just don't want to. So I decided to quit a lot of these boxes and be much more, I would say, sensitive and quiet with the design itself. Don't do loud merchandise. Y shirts with prints and logos. Focus much more on the quality. And this is the result. And I don't want it to make a show because I felt it was what's going on right now in the world, like politically speaking. And I just felt. I don't. I just don't feel I want to do now a show and I don't want to be loud right now. So in this all combined was in. I prefer not to.
- [34:10]
B
Yeah, it's kind of like this. It's sort of this phenomenon that I think a lot of people are having on release in the states of people just sort of kind of checking out, as you might say, stepping back and not wanting to engage or just sticking their head in the sand a little bit and just trying to. And observe and absorb and take a little bit of a break and try to start something new in some sense or tuning out in a sense.
- [34:43]
C
Absolutely.
- [34:43]
A
Yes. I would like to interject here. I don't think it was like, about disengaging, but simply when you have different choices that you then make like an active choice of not doing this because you're going somewhere else. I think totally.
- [35:03]
C
Absolute. Right. But there is definitely like. Or there was. It's now somehow it comes to an end. I work now on a new collection, but a need for. Just organize my point of views as well. Point of views of how I see the world, how I see fashion, how I see myself in this context. So this definitely so. But you're totally right, Joerg. It's an active choice to don't join.
- [35:28]
B
And your part of the collection's notes speaks about this sort of need for a counterculture. And I was wondering if, from your viewpoint, what is the real counterculture today? Does that even exist anymore?
- [35:44]
A
No, I don't think. Well, I don't know. It probably exists in certain fringes of the world, but I think we use counterculture. Probably not in the historical sense of saying, okay, this is like the classic underground or something. Something like that. We're not interested in that anymore. But I think like counterculture in the truest sense, you know, like. Like something opposing the current culture in terms of offering, like, an alternative, in terms of having an opposing view, etc.
- [36:18]
C
And in terms of sensitivity, this is totally missing.
- [36:22]
B
So just to add this, tell me about that. Sensitivity.
- [36:26]
A
Yeah, sensitivity. What is this?
- [36:29]
B
Like, sensitivity to what I tell you?
- [36:31]
C
Exactly. And we're discussing this, actually. Joerg and I are sitting every morning, we name it the war room. Actually, it's so not war. We're sitting there in the most beautiful living room, dogs around, garden in front, and we talk about, like, what will happen in the day, blah, blah. So. And the idea of. I can't pronounce this in English. Denunciation. Denunciation.
- [36:51]
B
Denunciation.
- [36:52]
C
Yeah. Everybody has a strong opinion. Everybody is. Not really. Not everybody, but a lot of people don't respect an opinion that you might not like, etc. And I feel the idea of sensitivity, of the gentleness of stepping back to let another opinion or movement person cross by is totally missing. And to insist on that and to go back to this could be a part as well of a counterculture, because it's a totally different approach of what I see as an average today.
- [37:36]
B
Jorg, do you agree with that?
- [37:37]
A
Yeah.
- [37:38]
C
Come on. Nein. No.
- [37:44]
B
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- [39:33]
C
This is a complicated, somehow complicated question. I do think that it's only changeable if needed. Somehow when the initiatives really are doing the change and feel that they are not interested in that anymore. Meaning that a high profile designer is rather quitting the millions of money he get as a payment instead of producing 12 collections because he's not interested in, in this quantity and that he's maybe more interested in quality. But this is an ethical approach, I would say. And it has to start from the core. And I don't think that the audience outside or the consumer can really change that.
- [40:27]
A
I think they already changed it by not buying it. No.
- [40:30]
B
Okay, tell me a little bit more.
- [40:33]
C
Yeah, but this is something different. It's not a change, it's a pressure system. So, but I don't really, I don't think so that this is really. They don't, they don't buy right now like in general goods. It's not a specific fashion industry momentum. They don't buy cars, they don't buy, I don't know, houses of whatsoever. Because everybody is right now concerned with spending money. When they spend money, it's about their own well being, like very Peter, Maya, very me, my little self and I. Right. So, but this is something different. But I do feel so what we are trying to do right now, because we see this too, we try to focus even more on what is really important to produce on, to put out there. I feel this is already a take and that I don't need in my collection, for example, 10 little black dresses. It's okay when I have one little black dress, you know. So this is already a different take.
- [41:36]
A
Well, I think like what you call the system is almost like on the verge of imploding, you know, like wherever you look at any corner. I think they're like huge problems, you know, whether in the retail sector, whether how young brands can or emerging brands can actually develop, etc. How the big houses treat the customer with all the price increases. And I think a general problem is, you know, when I got into fashion, there were certain brands I was able to believe in. And I think that lacks at the moment, like how many brands out there or like how many fashion designers out there where you actually believe them, you know, And I think that's, that's a big problem. And the general paradox, I Feel is that fashion has become so important. I mean like that has always been our stick with the magazine has become so important that you need fashion to sell cars, to sell holidays, to sell architecture. But that the. But that the actual fashion has become quite meaningless. Like how many people are actually deeply caring about a fashion garment or a fashion brand, et cetera, you know, so that's like something that the so called system probably needs to solve in the long run.
- [43:10]
B
And when you say, you know, you needed to believe in a fashion label, what did you mean by that? Can you elaborate?
- [43:19]
A
Well, I think like belief in the term of like that you don't have the feeling that you get ripped off, that you feel a certain sincerity in the things that you understand for what this label stands for compared to the other. What we have instead, obviously is like a merchandising across all brands that's very similar. You know, like if somebody sees cranky boots are working, then like within months everybody else has we these boots. Just as an example, like the specifics of each brand are kind of gone. Or is that too dark? Maria, what do you think?
- [43:55]
C
No, no, I'm thinking about it. You know what you are doing? You're describing a brand a little bit as if it would be a party, which is super interesting. You know, where a point of view is described, defined. And I'm just wondering why this happened. Of course. Like when for example, J.W. anderson was flipping from brand to brand to brand to brand. He is still one of the smartest by far. Of course it's what it does is. And it would be then the same in a party when somebody would jump from, you know, to from. I don't know.
- [44:28]
B
So they're more like DJs, not like parties?
- [44:30]
C
No, political parties. I mean.
- [44:33]
B
Oh, political parties. Oh, okay. I thought you meant like.
- [44:37]
C
I don't talk about dancing. No, no, political parties.
- [44:41]
B
Okay, Political parties.
- [44:42]
A
Oh, I see.
- [44:44]
B
It's probably easy for DJ to go to one part of the dance party.
- [44:46]
C
Sorry guys. Like a dancing party. Yeah, so this was my point.
- [44:53]
B
What do you think about that, Jorg? Does that make. Does that track for you?
- [44:56]
A
I think Maria needs to extra polite with this point. Like I'm not, I'm not really.
- [45:04]
C
When you talk about to believe in something, a certain system, a system within this brand saying that there's a certain ethos of how to communicate to the consumer how to value a garment, how to create the aesthetics around what kind of people would be gifted with the garments, you know, blah, blah, blah. This whole thing, this is a Little own cosmos where you then feel connected to where feel. This is no rip off. This is something where I really can bond to. And this is the same when you, when you see like just when you take now look to the politics. It would be quite irritating when someone from an economic party would jump what they do right now, would jump then to a right wing party and jump around where you then feel after help. I don't know what I want to vote here so that you just get that you just shut down and don't care anymore and you end up at Uniqlo. I know it's not a party there though.
- [46:12]
B
And you know, speaking of that, you know, I see O32C is this sort of pinnacle of something, for lack of a better word. It's an. It's. It's an. It's a. An entrepreneurial success of something extremely cool. Right. For lack of a better word, it's sort of like a. Such a great example for someone to hold up and say look at what was possible using culture and pushing boundaries in publishing to be something very successful. And that has lasted a long time. And so a lot of cities are going through these urban centers where these things happen, are going through a crisis, right? Affordability, housing over tourism. And since Berlin is so kind of connected with the history of O32C, do you think if you had moved to Berlin today in 2025 that that doing something like O32C would have been possible or you would have. Or maybe had a completely different approach or what do you. How is. How do you feel about this sort of change?
- [47:15]
A
I think. No, I mean like it would be something completely different. And again, it was like a lucky historical situation. You know, you never had like a capital in the western world that was underperforming financially, economically than the rest of the Republic. You know, normally like a capital is always the most expensive part in a country. And in Germany back then that was not the case. So the economical situation I think was like extremely defining the situation for 32 Seal just to build muscles like, also like the climate in Berlin obviously is people don't give a shit about you. So if you do great stuff, nobody cares if you do shitty stuff also nobody cared at that time. So you had like time to grow. And like the reason why 032C still exists because like I was like contemplating back then always to move to London or New York was because in Berlin there were simply no jobs. So doing O32C in London or New York would have gotten me most likely a Job within three issues. Within three issues with financial pressure would have been so intense that it would have been impossible to do this like almost like non profit publication back then. So Berlin enabled a certain melange of like stupidity and ambition and fostered that for quite a while. And that kind of made the publication so strong. You know, it's not like a mood board publication. People see the history, people see the legacy, people see the traces, how it develops. You know, it doesn't come from nowhere.
- [49:10]
B
And did at any point in, in the history of the brand when you guys were, you know, doing quite well and were no longer sort of struggling was did anyone come knocking on the door trying to. To not hire you per se, but just sort of to acquire the whole thing and maybe corporatize it?
- [49:28]
C
In a sense, yes, but in different like so I mean Joerg and I, we did consultancies and as well that people were interested on the whole thing. But I especially Joerg I think is always very straight from the beginning. There is no, just no interest in. Right in giving authority to see like completely.
- [50:01]
A
I think there's a beautiful thing to be like a lifer. You know, you do something and you just go on. But like the reason is normally like when you look back, okay, 25 years next year, it's a long time, like quarter century. You would think like in a world where people change jobs every once a year or once every two years, that must be boring. No, it's a dream job you have created because every time something gets boring, I can change it, you know. But also having said that, I made. I worked at different places. I was the founding editor in chief of a German interview magazine in 2012. Then I did like was editor in chief at Essence and created. They have a framework for editorial within retail. So but all these things like feedback to O32C and I learned from all these things massively. But like. So there's like enough changes in between. But now with fashion, that's like a major part. And that's just. As I said, it's not rocket science, but it's like really complicated because you have like creativity, logistics, production and everything needs to be synchronized and it's like lots of stuff to have.
- [51:14]
C
I mean fashion is not. I wouldn't say it's an interim, but it's like another starting point for the next steps we're already working on. So I mean we are quite good in. I don't know, maybe it's. I assume it's just our character, you know, that we feel magazine Is very like in a quite iconic place. Fashion did these three shows now in January 4th in Paris, which is amazing. This was a goal and the next ambition is around the corner already. So we managed that. We're staying very busy and under pressure. And I think this is as well why it's for us. Right. Feels still fresh and very entrepreneurial every day.
- [52:00]
B
Now, moving forward with your fashion line, you've kind of, from what I understand, you've broken it down into two main parts. A sort of workshop collection and then a ready to wear collection. Can you explain the difference between the two and what will be finding in both and when.
- [52:19]
A
So basically what we realized that we want to radicalize the offerings we have. And that means because of historic development with Cineau 30 to see how we started like with merch T shirts and then gradually increasing complexities, having ready to wear. And essentially in the past years it was all contained in one collection. And now we're splitting it up and having the workshop line just like for classic O32C merch products. And it will be like more an experimental, more fun, more direct approach with like vintage newspapers, editions by artists, books, vases, all mixed together under the workshop line. And that's being only sold in our stores in Berlin and Seoul as well online. So it's a very direct to consumer play. And then the ready to wear line will be even more elevated and that will be distributed in a classic wholesale way.
- [53:29]
B
And what was the reasoning to kind of feel like you needed to radicalize this was just sort of. It grew to a certain point where it needed to kind of. I don't know, what's the term in biology. When a cell gets too big, it divides. I'm forgetting what it's worth.
- [53:42]
C
No, it's more about organizing as well. Organizing. For me, the starting point was organizing references. And then you created a business model out of this need. So where I felt as a rave kid, yes, I do love T shirts with white prints. And yes, I do understand a certain price point, but how can I combine a certain price point T shirt where I totally see the need to. Let's say silk, please say evening gone. Where I see as well the need as well, you know, so. And for me it was always complicated to really get this together and to don't become a brand who's doing this rip off just to explain the price of the silk gone to make a t shirt for €800. So. And this is why we decided to have this just better structured, right?
- [54:38]
A
And also just to have like the energy, you know, like the energy of like the workshop line of printed T shirts, of people being able to buy it. That's like also like key to it.
- [54:53]
B
That sounds fantastic. When is this sort of shift take place?
- [54:57]
C
I mean, latest in January we have the ready like the next show and the plan is at Workshop starts latest end of November, beginning December for this Christmas festive season.
- [55:11]
B
And is it about growing the fashion business and that sort of brand or is it about moving into something, you know, an 032C restaurant or something?
- [55:20]
C
No, no, no. It's like, it's like it's all about to make the brand bigger. And from a fashion point of view.
- [55:33]
A
Yeah, yeah, I think like there's a huge potential opportunity for us. Like with fashion brands, you know, there's nothing since Gil Sander in Germany. There hasn't been like a, a brand that's been creatively and commercially relevant, you know, coming out of Germany. And I feel this is like super exciting.
- [55:57]
B
And you know, there are so many, you know, young creatives, especially out there, many that listen to this podcast that, you know, want to start their own enterprise in some way. You know, maybe it's a magazine, maybe it's, maybe it's a fashion label or whatever it is, or a gallery. Like, what would be your piece of advice to that 25 year old maybe who was born around the time that O32C was started and they're, they're out of school and they want to do something fun and creative and maybe they just move to London or New York or Berlin. What would your advice be to that person who's like, this is what I want, I want to do something like this. Like, what would you kind of give them that piece of advice?
- [56:38]
A
Ah, thank you. I mean, like, we're very bad at giving advices. You know, like we're speaking with people. When people come, we meet with them and talk through and give production help and stuff like that. But like, like those smashy two liners, like belief in yourself and like, we can't do that, right?
- [57:02]
C
I can.
- [57:03]
A
Yeah, yeah, of course.
- [57:04]
B
Yeah. Maria, go ahead. What's your, what's your two liner?
- [57:08]
C
Serious? Take yourself serious. When you say want to do it, then do it and really do it. And doing it means 20 years or 10 years, how long it ever takes. I feel a lot of people don't take this or don't. Just don't take it serious and don't really consider what it means when they say I want to be a fashion designer, of course, but then do it. Do the pattern work, do the sewing, do the struggling. Do the half a year. Like, not only potatoes, because the velvet is so beautiful. But, you know, this is what I mean with take yourself and your dreams serious. I think this is super important.
- [57:44]
A
That's beautiful. I should remember that. Take a self serious. No, that's true. You know, it's really about a commitment. A commitment to the cause, but also a commitment to yourself. As Maria said, that's like the best thing. Yeah.
- [58:00]
B
And have you ever. Let me ask you this. Like, O32C. Let's say we get in a time machine and we go into the future and O32C is no longer around. But there's a history book, like an encyclopedia, and you can go very early on because it starts with the 0. We find O32C. And there's a small entry that says what it was. O32C was what? What? What is it? What was it in the future?
- [58:30]
A
True. That was also like a title of. Of an issue, like, a long time ago. But I think L32C is about really being yourself with the time you're in. In. If you can translate or how would you. Do you know you speak German, Dan?
- [58:50]
B
I do not speak German. No. I grew up listening to it.
- [58:53]
A
Okay. I think is something, like, important, like that you engage with the time you live in. Right, Maria? Yeah. She's so. I didn't make a convincing course.
- [59:10]
C
Nate. It sounds good.
- [59:11]
B
Good.
- [59:11]
C
But it's like, not. Yeah. No. Yeah.
- [59:14]
B
Maria, how would you write that entry into the history books of 030?
- [59:20]
C
I really don't know. This is so. I'm so not into retrospective thinking or. We really trained ourselves to. Don't be in this backwards.
- [59:29]
A
No, I mean, like, legacy management is not our forte. I would say thank you to my.
- [59:36]
B
Guest guests, Jorg and Maria and their entire team at 03.2C for making this episode happen. The editor of the Grand Tourist is Stan Hall. To keep this going, don't forget to visit our website and sign up for our newsletter. The Grand Tourist curator@thegrandtourist.net and follow me on Instagram danrubenstein and follow the Grand Tourist on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. And leave us a rating or comment. Every little bit helps. Till next time.